*The Savvy Sauce*

7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.
 
7. Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Philippians 2:1-11 “If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
 
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website
Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:
Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women
The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex
Restoring the Pleasure
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today 
Information on Pelvic Pain 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
[00:00:09]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:26]
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois and with over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure to put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.
If you're interested in sponsoring The Savvy Sauce, we would love to hear from you. Make sure you reach out to us. You can email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. 
This episode is intended for currently married, healthy couples. [00:01:21] If you've had trauma in the past and have not pursued healing, our hope is that you would reach out for help today. It is unlikely that you can do this healing alone.
We recommend you connect with a Christian counselor in your area, ideally with a specialization in Christian sex therapy. Healing is possible.
I also want you to be forewarned that this topic is not suitable for little ears. 
I'm so excited for our guest today. We get to host Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. The Penners are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people to embrace sex as good and of God. Today we discuss differing desires in marriage and practical tips to enhance your sexual intimacy. 
Welcome, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We're delighted to be here. We're just excited to see where this can go. 
Joyce Penner: Yes. 
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just dive right in. For anyone who doesn't know you yet, could you give us some background into who both of you are and what you do? [00:02:22]
Joyce Penner: Well, we were both raised as Mennonites, so the topic that we're about to talk about was not talked about in our homes. We both were in our separate professions when Cliff was asked to teach a class to new moms about teaching your kids about sex. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: And those professions were that I was a clinical psychologist, I had gotten my doctorate in that area, and Joyce was a nursing professor at California State University. 
So what happened was that I was asked to teach this class of women about talking to your kids about sex, and then afterwards a couple of the women asked if I would come and teach a group of 60 women about sexual adjustment marriage, and I said: "Well, I really don't know much about that." And they said, "No, would like you to come teach us." So since Joyce was a nursing professor, I prevailed upon her and we got... 
Joyce Penner: And because you were going to be teaching 60 women-
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, that's true. [00:03:22] 
Joyce Penner: He said, "I'm not going to go teach 60 women about sex, which we know nothing about from a professional perspective." 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So we studied like crazy and did a 10-week course on sexual adjustment in marriage. At the last three weeks, the women asked if they could bring their husbands. Then what happened was that we got so much positive response to it and started getting asked to teach at other places. 
So then we finally went and got trained as sexual therapists, and this was a process of the next year or two, because people started asking to come to us for sexual therapy, and we said we're not sexual therapists.
Joyce Penner: But every step of the way we were led into this. It wasn't something we ever decided we were going to do. But it's one of those experiences, we believe, when doors are open and you allow God to lead you, He uses you in mighty ways. And that's certainly been true for us. [00:04:21] Now, at this stage of our lives, we're mainly training other professionals, other sexual therapists. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So we often teach seminars to psychologists, marriage and family counselors, pastors, who will then use the material that we bring to help with the people that they're dealing with who have sexual issues. That's all over the world that we get to do that.
Joyce Penner: Lots of fun. 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. Clearly, you two are great at it, so we really appreciate your contribution. Let's just lay the spiritual foundation for this topic first. Do you have any specific scripture that's very precious to you in this area?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, probably the two main passages that are at the core of what the New Testament teaches about sexuality are 1 Corinthians 7, the first 11 verses, where it says, "Is it a good thing to have sexual relations?" [00:05:22] And that the church at Corinth is asking this, and then Paul answers, "Of course it's a good thing, but between a husband and wife." And then he goes on and instructs, "Husbands, be this way with your wives, wives, be this way with your husbands." And then it's the same passage in Ephesians 5.
Joyce Penner: That whole passage that starts with "submit to one another", but then goes on and talks about the wife's role and much more specifically the husband's role.
The husband is to love his wife like Christ loves the church. And in doing that, he's really doing himself a favor because they're already one in Christ. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: We have to ask the question, well, how would he be doing himself a favor if he loves his wife that way? 
Joyce Penner: Like Christ loved the church. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Like Christ loved the church. The answer is that when a woman feels cherished and adored and admired, like Paul talks about in Ephesians 5, that's what turns her on. [00:06:23] And when she's turned on, then it makes him happy. That's why he's really doing himself a favor when he loves her that way. 
Joyce Penner: And then we also ask, well, how did Christ love the church? And we go to Philippians 2, the passage that says that Christ gave up His rights. And men will often say, "But don't we have the right to sex?" Yes. But when that right is pursued rather than released, it puts pressure on the woman. And when the woman feels pressure, she's not likely to feel good about herself and not likely to want sex, and then he feels badly about himself when she doesn't. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So, to make it very simple, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, and Philippians 2:1-11, which says, "Let this mind be in you, which is also in Christ Jesus." 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. Moving on to the physical aspects, how are sleep and diet, and exercise related to an enjoyable sex life? [00:07:28] 
Joyce Penner: We talk about this in quite a bit of detail in our book, Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and talk about from the woman's perspective. But it's also true for men. 
For women, we teach them how to listen to their bodies. And when they listen to their bodies they will be able to get with their own sexuality and share it with their husband. But because sex is not only a spiritual non-relational experience, it is a physical event, and so when we're well-rested, when we're healthy, when our bodies are nurtured in the right way and we exercise, it's going to enhance our sex life. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. And for anyone who's listening today, do you have maybe one first practical step they can take to move in the right direction? 
Dr. Clifford Penner: We would say, first of all, you have to get enough sleep. [00:08:25] People who aren't getting enough sleep are not going to have the energy to be sexual with each other. 
Joyce Penner: And in terms of one suggestion, nutritionally, we would say change one eating pattern. And the one we would recommend is to decrease or eliminate empty carbohydrates. In other words, sugars, foods that don't have much nutrition and are only filling us with calories. 
Laura Dugger: For somebody who's thinking in their head, kind of pushing back "sure, I want to get more sleep, how can I actually do that?" what else would you say to convince them of the importance of that step? 
Joyce Penner: Well, one thing I learned early on when I went back to work when our oldest daughter was six weeks old, is I learned to take power naps. That was critical to my functioning as a mom, a professional, and a wife. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So, Joyce thinks of that not as an indulgence, but actually- [00:09:29] 
Joyce Penner: As a gift.
Dr. Clifford Penner: ...as a gift to the rest of us. And I would have to agree with that.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so freeing to hear you say that. That's great because a lot of people might be struggling with guilt as well. And I feel like you just addressed that. 
Joyce Penner: And I just set the timer for 30 or 25 minutes and often wake up before that. But sometimes even 20 minutes is plenty just to take that edge off, and yet it's so natural. Especially with moms with young children, when they finally get their kids down for a nap, they think they've got to get all the tasks done in the house. 
But I find if I free myself to go take that nap, even now when I don't have kids around, I'm so much more effective and get much more done more quickly if I take that 20 minutes. I make up that 20 minutes really quickly by the difference in the energy I have. 
Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense. [00:10:26] So you've talked about the wife's part. Let's use that same example. Do you have any practical tips or suggestions for the husband to help maybe their wife get more sleep? 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, one of the things that we always encourage the husband is that since she's often been, when they're kids, often been home all day with the kids, anything that he can specifically do to take over some part of that task once he gets home and he might say, well, I've been working all day too. But it's a whole different kind of stress that a woman has to deal with at home. 
So we would always encourage him for example to let her take a bubble bath while he reads the kids their nighttime story or whatever.
Joyce Penner: But it could be in today's world probably both of them may be working. Or it may be that he's the stay-at-home dad and she's out working. Each couple has to kind of negotiate for themselves what's going to work in their situation. [00:11:26] 
For some women, maybe the nap isn't it? Maybe it's something else that gets her energized. But figuring that out and listening to yourself and negotiating it rather than just assuming you have to be tired and exhausted because you have kids and are working.
Laura Dugger: Just one more follow-up question while we're still on this story. Let's flip it to see what a wife and husband can do to make sure that the husband now gets the sleep because I loved your practical examples. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, I don't know that the wife can see to it that the husband gets more sleep. For most men, it is going to be a reduction of their electronic use or video games or television or sports events or whatever. Those decisions can't get made by the wife, but need to get made by the husband himself. [00:12:21] And that is usually what is going to make it more possible for the man to get more sleep.
Joyce Penner: And basically, probably that's more true for actually both, that it is each of our responsibility to work that out and the other spouse affirming and supporting that decision.
Laura Dugger: I love that. The spouses know that they can be the encourager, or they're the ones that need more sleep, they can take their own ownership. 
Joyce Penner: Right. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Exactly. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, your formula for intimacy came from observation, and then later it was affirmed by brain and sex research. So could you elaborate on that formula and all the benefits? 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, the formula is divided into four categories, what we do in a 15-minute-a-day period, and then once a week, once a quarter, and once a year. Mainly, we would want to talk about the 15 minutes a day. [00:13:22] So let's explain that first. 
Joyce Penner: That's the most important part. The others are lovely if couples can do it, but the 15 minutes a day is what will make the most difference. And it's very prescriptive. What we mean by that is it isn't just something you sort of do, it really makes... the research in terms of the benefit is that it has to happen in the order prescribed and at least the minimum amount of time prescribed. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: And we think of it as literally 15 minutes a day. And part of the reason we do that is that most men fear getting into a conversation with a woman because it may never end. So we think if couples can know that it's just going to be exactly 15 minutes, maybe they even set a timer, then the man will be much more willing to do that. 
Joyce Penner: And if couples tend to drift into arguments when they talk, it's another reason to limit the time.  [00:14:27] According to the brain research, they don't need more time to make this effective. But it starts with connecting emotionally. And in that emotional connection, looking into each other's eyes. Because eye-to-eye contact triggers oxytocin. The brain secretes oxytocin as a result of eye-to-eye contact. 
It's the same reason it's important for parents to look into their children's and infants' eyes to build that oxytocin, which is the trust hormone. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So in that few minutes of conversation, this is not about figuring out who's going to pick up the groceries or go to the dry cleaners. This is some relational communication, either an affirmation about the other person, sharing a thought that you've had, a reaction. It's not the time to schedule, nor is it the time to settle differences. This is just a connecting time for maybe three to five minutes. [00:15:23] 
Joyce Penner: And just positive thoughts and feelings. It can be an affirmation of the other, as Cliff mentioned, but could also just be if you had some kind of a positive goal that arrived, or you had it in your head, or that you dreamt of something that you wanted to share, or you anticipate a positive time, or experience how God was working in your life that day. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing is this kind of relational, looking in each other's eyes communication. Then the next thing is some kind of a spiritual connection. 
Joyce Penner: And that depends on where the person is coming from spiritually. It could be that they're just sharing inspirational reading, that they have a flip calendar with a thought for the day or a Bible verse for the day, or that they join in prayer together. Wherever the couple is in that process. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: And some couples will be very uncomfortable being very direct about that, others for that will be more natural, and maybe they can grow into it. [00:16:23] 
Joyce Penner: And then finally, this is the third step then, is to connect physically. Stand up and give each other front to front full body hug for 20 seconds. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: This is an interesting thing. The research has shown that when a couple hugs for 20 seconds or more, it does also raise the oxytocin level, the bonding hormone that brings two people closer to one another emotionally, relationally and this is not about getting turned on sexually that may happen sometimes but this is-
Joyce Penner: That's an important thing to say. Many times women resist the physical connection because it leads to a passionate kiss. And this is a vital part of the formula for intimacy, the daily part. But women have resisted that because they're afraid, or men have too, they're afraid they're going to get aroused, or that their husband's going to get aroused. [00:17:23] And if they get aroused, they have this idea that arousal has to lead to a sexual experience. And that just is not a reality. 
In fact, when we stop hugging and kissing because we think it has to lead to a sexual experience, then we have fewer sexual experiences because we don't keep the pilot light on and we start shutting down on our sexuality. So let yourselves get aroused if it happens, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it leads to sex. It has to do with connecting, enjoying, delighting in your body, getting those little sensations. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Just to say that very simply, arousal does not mean it has to lead to a sexual intercourse experience. 
Joyce Penner: Then after the 22nd hug, five to thirty seconds of passionate kissing without leading to sex. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Now let's give a little background there. [00:18:21] Before couples are married, are early in their marriage, there's often a lot of passionate kissing. But as time goes on, maybe when children come or life gets busy or people are going to school or whatever they're doing, the pattern changes. 
The stereotype is, and it could be the reverse of this, but the stereotype is the husband comes up and wants to give his wife a kiss and she thinks to herself, "Oh, do I wanna have sex tonight? I'm not sure. I better not leave him on." And so she gives him the cheek rather than her lips. And it's a one-second event, that is a peck, which then in fact doesn't allow for that passion to be there. 
So it is our belief and our finding that daily passionate kissing is one of the most important things for a couple to do not because it's gonna lead to sex, just because it triggers the dopamine in the brain which is the excitement hormone. And this will then help, as Joyce said earlier, keep that pilot light on. [00:19:27] 
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating and something that people could take and start today. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: They can start today. And usually it's best if a couple decides, you know, the best time for us to have our 15 minutes of connecting a day, we call 15 minutes of intimacy, not physical sexual intimacy, but just total emotional intimacy that does include some physical, but not intercourse, it's best if you decide on when that's going to be, whether it's right when the husband gets home, or in the morning before the kids get up, or when the kids are all down, whatever it may be. 
Joyce Penner: Or when they both get home from work, or when she gets home, however, their system is. Or often, it can be the thing they do before they go to bed. It's different for everybody. Maybe when they have dinner. And they don't have to be in private. The kids can be around. In fact, it's okay for the kids to see that they have this kind of intimacy and connection with each other. [00:20:24] 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the formula for intimacy starts with that 15 minutes a day. Then we also encourage one date night a week and that could lead to sex or not. And hopefully it would include a half a day or a day every quarter that you devote to your marriage. 
Then usually it's best if a couple can enjoy some kind of a marriage retreat or retreat focused on sex, or something that will build their intimacy. So it's 15 minutes a day, one date night a week, one day a quarter, and one weekend a year. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: That's great. And just a few follow-up questions with some of those. You had mentioned even in those 15 minutes of intimate connection time, the first few minutes where you're focused with eye contact. If conflict does arise and the spouses, let's say, have different ways they like to engage in conflict, what do you recommend as a healthy approach if it starts escalating in those few minutes? [00:21:25] 
Joyce Penner: They stop right away. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: For that particular event and say, Let's schedule to talk about this another time away from here, because this is our connecting time, not our dealing with conflict time. So the kids are going to be down by eight o'clock tonight. Why don't we plan that at 8:30 we'll deal with this? But right now we're just talking about our intimacy. 
Joyce Penner: And we're just talking about delighting in each other and enjoying ourselves and sharing what's positive in our lives. And if we keep it positive, it's not likely to lead to conflict. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: But this time should always be thought of as a positive connecting time. And then scheduled to deal with the conflict away from that event. 
Laura Dugger: Which is so great because then what a great thing to look forward to every day. I do wonder, does it look different if you have clients that have a lot of trauma in their past, maybe sexual abuse or sexual trauma related to the physical part of this intimate formula? [00:22:30] 
Joyce Penner: This formula really helps with that. The only part that may be an issue and we do deal with if one or the other has not been able to kiss ever in their relationship because kissing was a part of being violated. Then that person should always lead the kissing so they're never kissed. 
But if I was the one traumatized, let's say my grandfather always kissed me and it was part of his abusing me—Didn't happen. I'm just saying hypothetically—then it would be important that Cliff not kiss me, but rather I do the kissing. And maybe it only starts with a peck, and then I gradually move to a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And maybe I stay at a very cautious level for quite some time, but practice everything else in the formula until kissing becomes safe. 
And this is why it's so important that the 20-second hug and the eye-to-eye contact happens before any attempt at kissing. [00:23:40] Many times husbands or sometimes the wife will want to skip the other two steps and just do the kissing. That doesn't tend to work as effectively. 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for clarifying. You've also taught that sex is only able to be great when it's good for both. Could you just elaborate on that principle? 
Joyce Penner: We believe this is biblical, first of all, as we talked about the 1 Corinthians 7 passage that's such a key teaching New Testament passage and the Ephesians 5:1. The Ephesians 5 one starts with, submit yourselves one to another. The 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 talks about mutuality, that I'm to give myself to my husband, my husband's to give himself to me, and that it's supposed to be as good for one as it is for the other. That it is a mutual. It's always an equal kind of thing. [00:24:43] It isn't that one submits and the other dominates.
Dr. Clifford Penner: This is an important thing. There can be some couples or individuals who come with the idea that sex is really for the man and the woman is providing it. We see that as both a very destructive way of thinking and also a very unbiblical way of thinking. 
So that is why since it is a relational event it needs to be as good for one as it is for the other if it's going to last for a lifetime. This is one of the main reasons why it is good from early on to practice it always be mutual. 
If it's only for the benefit of one or primarily for the benefit of one, over time the couple will be having less and less sex because one of them isn't enjoying it. So years down the road, there will not be nearly as much activity nor as much fun with the activity. [00:25:44] So that's absolutely essential. If you're gonna have a lifetime of sexual enjoyment it has to be mutual. 
Laura Dugger: Let's approach it from both genders then. What encouragement do you have for the husband that experiences lower sexual desire than his wife? 
Joyce Penner: So if the husband has a lower desire, what we find is that the couple doesn't have sexual contact, whereas when the wife… 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or at least not as often. 
Joyce Penner: Not as often. Whereas when the wife has lower desire, the couple may still be having sex regularly. And we aren't sure whether that's because of cultural teaching or whether that's physical, because the husband does need to have a response in order to move forward. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: He has to be able to get aroused, whereas a woman can go along with the sexual experience without arousal. 
Joyce Penner: And can be more passive. [00:26:43] So it's hard to know why. But our finding is that when the man lacks desire a couple doesn't have sex, and when the woman lacks desire the couple may be having sex regularly. 
Mainly what would be important would be that they talk about the difference because sometimes it isn't as extreme as they think it is. Sometimes if the man lacks desire, there's a real reason for it, and that needs to be determined just as it would if the woman lacks desire. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Let's give some possible reasons. It could be that the man is very low in testosterone since testosterone is the hormone that drives sexual desire. So there could be a physical reason. 
Joyce Penner: There could also be a relational reason. For some men, if there's been conflict that really pushes them away sexually. For other men, they're using up all their energy at work or creating a business or their entrepreneurial-ness. For other men, it could be that they're substituting intimacy with the wife for pornography or other means of sexual outlets. [00:27:51] 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So if a man has lack of desire, it could be because he's meeting his physical need by looking at porn and then stimulating himself. It could be that he has same-sex attraction. So even though you wanted to be married to a woman and may even say that he loves her and wants to stay with her but he is drawn to men rather than to women. 
So there's a variety of reasons why a man might have low interest and it would be important to get at that. Now, often a man may not even know it or may not want to admit it. And so that may be a time where they get some professional help or read a book like our book, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. 
Joyce Penner: But we should talk about it. Sometimes the man lacks desire, but if the woman initiates, they're fine. He's happy to go along with it. but the woman hasn't felt comfortable initiating. So this is why there's not a real clear one answer to desire issues, whether it's the woman that lacks desire or the man that lacks desire. [00:29:00]
The main thing is nagging and pursuing will never work. Pursuing in a negative sense, where it feels like a demand. You know, checking. Do you want it today? Is this a good time? Or... 
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's true on both sides. 
Joyce Penner: Yeah, both sides. Or complaining. You never want sex. I'm so frustrated. Complaining, bugging, nagging will never increase your sex life. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: It drives a person away. We should switch sides now and say and what if the woman has less interest and how do we understand that?
Joyce Penner: This is where men and women are different. Women tend to want to have sex and open up sexually when they feel loved and adored, when they feel good about themselves. Men tend to desire and want sex when they feel attracted to the wife, when they see her, that visual aspect. And when she's turned on, that's what turns them on. [00:29:58] A turned-on woman turns on a man, but a turned-on man is not necessarily a turn-on for a woman. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: So let's just be really clear what we're trying to say here. When the man experiences the woman as in touch with her sexuality and desirous of it and can get aroused in the experience and responsive, then that is likely to make the man move toward her and be interested in her. 
So the best thing that a woman can do to raise her desire is to really be in touch with her sexuality. And the way the man helps that is by his love and care and affirmation and adoration of her. 
Joyce Penner: Not his pursuit. 
Laura Dugger: Could you give a few examples of that when you say she needs to be in touch with her sexuality and the husband can help that by adoring her and affirming her? Could you go a little bit further and share what you mean? 
Dr. Clifford Penner: First thing I was going to say is keep your feet warm and wear socks. [00:31:00] 
Joyce Penner: That may not make sense.
Dr. Clifford Penner: I know. Explain what I mean. 
Joyce Penner: Sure. The research has shown that when women's feet are warm, they're more likely to be sexually responsive. So I always tease women, just, you know, tell them you need a foot rub. And many women love that. So it's fun. 
That's what the book Enjoy! is all about, The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women. It teaches the woman how to do that. So to say that in a sentence is pretty difficult. 
But basically, for the woman, if she's listening to the benefits to her own sexual desire and need, and some women listening will say, I'm not aware of any, as far as I'm concerned, sex could... you know, I never have to have sex again in my life. But there's usually reasons for that, either that she's feeling too much pressure and it's been a demand and it's never been for her, or she's never been responsive. Those are usually the reasons a woman would not want sex or fight it. [00:32:00] 
But when she starts to listen to her body and those little tingles and what she needs and feels good about herself, that will make a difference. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: We've been married almost 55 years from now and known each other 59 years, and I've been adoring of Joyce from day one. 
Joyce Penner: More adoring of me than I felt about myself. I didn't come with a good self-esteem. It was his affirmation of me that I first actually fought because I thought it was just a come on and wasn't true. And I fought him on it. But as it began to soak in, and I began to feel better about myself, it really made a difference. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Now, backing up a little bit, though, in answer to your question about how does a woman listen to her body, the first thing that has to happen is that a woman has to believe that sex is as much for her as it is for the man. She has to believe that she is worthy of being a sexual person and being sexually aroused and responsive. [00:33:03]
Joyce Penner: And that God designed her that way. God didn't design that it was just the man that was sexual and it was just for him. God designed us as women as sexual persons, with all of that intensity built into who we are. And if we haven't experienced it, it's usually a barrier that's there. 
Even as all of mankind was designed to seek God and to desire union and oneness with Him, sin has interrupted that in our world so that many don't have the felt need for God. Likewise, each of us is designed for that sexual desire. And yet there may be hurts and things that have happened in our lives that block that desire or physical things that get in the way of feeling that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Now, if there is an issue like difficulty having an orgasm and she doesn't have an orgasm, likely over time she is going to lose interest because for her there is no point in getting aroused if it can't culminate in a release. [00:34:14] Because an orgasm is a reflex response to the arousal that happens and it is... Well, we compare it to a sneeze. It's like that build up and then the Achoo, which is true when we sneeze but in the sexual experience there's the buildup and then there's a release so we often kiddingly say an orgasm is really just a pelvic sneeze.
Joyce Penner: But when you're not getting that release and you end up frustrated, then you're going to avoid the sexual experience. So when a couple comes to us saying she lacks desire, we always have to sort out what the cause is. And if it's because she's never had a sexual response, then we don't work on it as a desire issue, we help her learn how to let go orgasmically.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And it is our belief that we were all created as sexual beings men and women and that we were all designed for arousal and release: stimulation and orgasm. [00:35:19] And that when that isn't happening that really limits the delight of the experience in the fulfillment and over time would cause a lack of desire for it. 
Laura Dugger: Okay, so if someone's hearing this for the first time and they've never reached orgasm before, you're telling them that there's hope. Can you explain more of the process for them to reach that? 
Joyce Penner: To reach orgasm? Are you talking particularly for women? 
Laura Dugger: Yes.
Joyce Penner: Okay. We would change your question from "reach" to "allow". We're glad you asked it that way because most women are trying to reach orgasm, and their trying to reach orgasm actually interferes with it happening. 
So what we change the focus from trying to achieve something as a goal to learning to ride the waves and enjoy the process. [00:36:17] Because so many times women who aren't orgasmic aren't because they're uncomfortable with the stimulation, they're uncomfortable with the arousal, they're uncomfortable with some part of the process or block it or interfere with it and don't let it build up in their bodies. They want the result but they're uncomfortable. 
Getting comfortable with their bodies and allowing the good feelings and focusing on the good feelings and pursuing the feelings and letting the feelings linger and enjoying. The goal being to have longer times-
Dr. Clifford Penner: Intense times.
Joyce Penner: ...intense times of enjoyment. And then the reflex of the orgasm is going to likely happen.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So a simple way of saying it is focusing on having an orgasm can keep it from happening. Focusing on the pleasure of the experience is most likely to lead to it. Now, we should throw something else in here and this may make some of your listeners uncomfortable. [00:37:16] 
But the reality is, let's say a couple gets married at age 25. Most guys, 98%, have started masturbating when they're 12 years old. By the time they get married, they've had anywhere from 500 to 5,000 ejaculations. Their body knows how to do that. 
If a woman has not engaged any self-stimulation that led to orgasm, then they're going to be pretty unfamiliar with all that. And so it's a whole learning process for her that is very different than what is true for the great majority of men. And if we just understand that we can argue about whether or not the boys should or shouldn't have masturbated but that's not the issue. The fact is they have. 
So it is important to understand that this is a learning process for a woman to learn how to listen to her body. That is a different experience than is true for the majority of men. 
Joyce Penner: And as long as the man feels it as a demand to give her an orgasm, or she feels it as a demand to have one, that kind of external pressure interferes with the body's involuntary nervous system that controls these responses. [00:38:32] 
So by freeing herself and freeing him and them learning to delight in their bodies and listen to their bodies and enjoy the closeness and the warmth and the touch and the good feelings as they build, that would be the goal. It's very similar to trying to fall asleep versus providing the right conditions for falling asleep. When we are struggling with insomnia and we try to fall asleep. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: And we're concentrating on falling asleep. That's a surest time not to. 
Laura Dugger: That is so good. Thank you for elaborating on all that. 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Leman Property Management is today's sponsor. If you're looking for upscale living in the hottest spots in town, start your search with Leman Property Management today. They offer the most exciting options in the most desirable spots in central Illinois, and you can call that place home today. 
Are you interested in downtown Peoria? Check out their rentals at the fabulously renovated Marquette building next to the College of Medicine. [00:39:36] Unique floor plans, restored original oak floors, and beautiful views of downtown Peoria await. 
What about Peoria Heights? 1221 Duryea offers immediate access to the fine dining and shopping of Prospect Avenue, with brand new accommodations that include 9-foot ceilings with huge windows overlooking Peoria Heights, electric car charging stations, and community party rooms. 
Is Morton where you want to be? The upscale Jefferson Building located along the downtown boutique shops and restaurants provides spacious living areas with stainless steel appliances and top-of-the-line countertops. 
So whether you're looking for Peoria, Morton, Pekin, or Washington, Leman Property Management has what you need. Check them out today. You can find them online at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook. Just search Leman Property Management Company. 
Laura Dugger: And now just to get really practical, you've said before the best thing you can do for your sex life is to put the TV in the garage. [00:40:40] 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Let's expand on that immediately. We said that a while back. Now we would say control your electronics. It could be TV. It could be your laptop. It could be your iPad. It could be your cell phone. Whatever it is. The point is don't let yourself be controlled by the distractions in your life which are keeping you away from the intimacy with your wife. 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And that's a practical application people can hear and again apply today. So you have written extensively on many of these topics that we've discussed today. Can you share a little bit about the resources that you have available? 
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well the very first book we wrote came out in 1981 which is a long time ago but it's been rewritten since then. That's The Gift of Sex. And that is just a basic sexual manual that is something that every couple could use. 
Then our most recent two books, one of them is for women, Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women, and the one for the man is The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. [00:41:46] We encourage couples especially to read that last one, the one for the man out loud together. 
Joyce Penner: But all three of those really benefit, and sometimes couples don't hear this when we say it, so we hope you're listening audiences hearing this. Reading a resource like this out loud together is much more effective than reading it alone and then talking about it together or even not talking about it is even less effective. 
The reading out loud works so well because we hear each other say the words and we can react to what we're reading in the moment. So we can say, well, I've never thought about it that way before, or I don't quite agree with that. How do you feel about that? So it almost acts like a third party to help grow the sexual relationship and understanding and intimacy with each other. [00:42:42] 
Dr. Clifford Penner: And if couples have not grown up being comfortable to talk about sex, in fact, we find many couples never talk about it, reading it out loud together any of these books is going to give them the opportunity to say the words, hear themselves say the words, get comfortable communicating about it. 
Joyce Penner: Now, if there are problems that the couple is struggling with-
Dr. Clifford Penner: Just say whether those are relational problems or problems with pain or problems with getting aroused or premature ejaculation or orgasmic problems, whatever they may be, technical sexual problems, then the book to read would be Restoring the Pleasure. 
Joyce Penner: And be sure you get our newest version which came out March 2016. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: You can always get these from our website which is passionatecommitment.com. Those would be the main resources unless you're an engaged couple and then we have a perfect book for you called Getting Your Sex Life Off To a Great Start. [00:43:43] This we encourage couples to read for the year to six months before they're getting married as they prepare themselves for a married sexual life. The whole book is about dealing with the sexual side of getting married 
Joyce Penner: But we find his couples work through that, it deals with so much more than just sex. It really is about becoming one and intimacy and spirituality and being able to communicate. If you get through that book together, it will make a huge difference. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: All of this is available on our website called passionatecommitment.com. 
Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to that in our show notes to make it easy for everyone to check out and order today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as we conclude this time together, what is your savvy sauce? 
Dr. Clifford Penner: One thing that we would say is that if you made no other change, then that you started kissing passionately on a daily basis, that was not designed to lead to sex, that we would virtually guarantee that it'll change your relationship and it'll change your sexual life. [00:44:58] 
Joyce Penner: And do that in the context of that 15 minutes per day. 
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for just taking the time to share your years of expertise and knowledge with us. You two are doing remarkable things in the field and I'm so thankful for your years of work. 
Dr. Clifford Penner: We enjoy doing this and happy to connect with anyone that needs more information. 
Laura Dugger: It's giveaway time again and today we're giving away two of the Penners' books. You can go over to our website thesavvysauce.com and click on our "giveaways" tab. There you'll find detailed instructions for how to enter for your chance to win these two books, including Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, both authored by the Penners. Thanks for participating. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. [00:45:57] And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:46:57] 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:47:58] 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

6 Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview With Certified Sex Therapist and Pastor, Dr. Michael Sytsma

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
 
6. 10 Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview With Certified Sex Therapist and Pastor, Dr. Michael Sytsma
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Hebrews 13:4(a) NIV “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure,”
 
Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness.  Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.
 
Dr. Michael Sytsma’s Website 
Recommended author: John Gottman
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
[00:00:10]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:27]
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. 
Check them out at midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode. 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
Today we are fortunate to hear from Dr. Michael Sytsma. He is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. He has been married to his wife Karen since 1985 and they have two adult sons. [00:01:27] 
He does various workshops and he was one of my professors in graduate school. I have greatly benefited from his teachings and I believe you will too. 
During this episode, Dr. Mike answers 10 common questions related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Here's our chat. 
Thanks so much for joining us today, Dr. Mike. 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Sure. It's an honor to be here
Laura Dugger: This episode, we're going to talk about 10 common sexual intimacy questions. So here we go. What are some common misconceptions about sex? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh wow, I think there are a lot of them. One is that it's about parts and technique. Parts have to be the right size in order for sex to be good. That parts have to be young and youthful in order for sex to be good. That my technique has to be perfect. That I have to learn how to do it just right. 
The reality of it is those play a small piece of having a healthy sexual relationship, but our heart matters far more and the soul of sex matters far more than the parts and technique. [00:02:35] One writer has said that he doesn't think couples can have truly a great sexual relationship until they're in their 50s. Because he says it takes us that long before we finally accept who we are. 
I can come before my spouse and say, "Yeah, as broken and as unattractive as I am now at 50, I still give all of me to you. And you receive that." And now we're able to step into a truly intimate relationship. It's not just about, is our body fit and are we able to do with it what we think should happen? 
Laura Dugger: That's really good. What do you tell couples who are concerned when they have differing levels of desire? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: A couple of things. One is, when we really get down to it, most couples don't have as different of a desire as what they think. Now, desire is different for each spouse. [00:03:34] In cross-cultural studies, 80% of the time the husband's a high drive, 20% of the time the wife is, which means one in five couples, the wife is the higher drive individual in that relationship. So, that's not as abnormal as what often those couples think it is. 
But what's fascinating is in none of the surveys, none of the research that we've done do we find couples that have the same desire. So, to say they have a different level of desire just means they're normal. 
But when we start to really talk about what desire is, couples often get much closer than what they think they are. Sometimes it's in how you ask the question. So if I ask a question, how often are you hungry for sex? I'll get a real, usually broad divergence. 
The husband might say, Well, I get hungry for sex two or three times a week, or maybe even more. And the wife might say, hungry for sex? Wow, not sure I can remember the last time I was hungry for it. [00:04:37] Most common, I'll hear one to two times a month. 
I asked one wife, so tell me about that, you know, when you get hungry for sex, what's that like? And she says, well, all of a sudden I'm thinking about it, and it'd be really nice. Well, what do you do with that? She says, I'm always taxi for the kids, or I am switching the laundry, or I'm fixing dinner, and it's just inconvenient. So she says, "I ignore it, and 20 minutes later it goes away." Her husband looked over at her and said, "Next time call me, I'll be home in 10." And I thought that was great. 
But she's just acknowledging that physical drive doesn't happen very often. So we'll see real divergence there. But when I ask, what would you be proud of? What would you like? What do you think is healthy for your marriage? 
Now, wives will typically say one to two times a week, and husbands will say typically two to three times a week. And I point out there really isn't much difference between two and two. That one to two times for her and two to three times for him, they're really in that same ballpark. [00:05:39] 
Usually, the higher drive spouse will look at the lower one and say, "Seriously, you don't want it that often." And I'll point out that's kind of the wrong question to ask. What if they're telling the truth? What if the low-desire spouse is saying, One to two times is what I think would be good? And you're thinking, but we don't have it quite that often. 
The real question is, okay, if that's what you want, what's getting in the way? Now the couple is on the same side of the page talking about what's getting in the way of what we both want. We both would like about twice a week. We think that'd be really good. That'd be fun. That'd be a mark of a healthy relationship. That's what I desire. But something's getting in the way. 
And usually it's simple things that are not easily solved, but simple things like, I'm too tired. I have way too much going on in my day. And by the time we get to where we can have sex, I have no energy left for it. Okay, good. That's what's in the way. Now we can step back and problem-solve it. [00:06:39] 
Or, "You know what, you really treated me poorly last week, and then you want to have sex, and my heart has to be softer to you. I have to feel adored. I have to feel cared for." Okay, now you know what to solve. 
What I find is couples generally aren't as far apart as what they think they are. This was the subject of my doctoral dissertation. I found that what we call the attribution, what they think is more caustic than what is. So it's helping couples to really sit down, talk about it, and figure out what's getting in the way of us getting what we really would like to have, because the desire is probably not as far apart as they think it is. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's fascinating. How can a couple utilize and celebrate their gender differences to positively influence their sexual intimacy?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, I think some of it comes in just acknowledging what those are and how each of them would identify, characterize, and talk about the gender piece for them. Because in some of the couples that I work with, he really has a lot more feminine qualities. [00:07:41] His heart is really into the sex. 
If she is not enjoying it and nurturing and caring for him, it's kind of weak. And she's uber competent and she's just busting down the walls of the home and of maybe work and she has more of that, what we would call masculine power or masculine strength. 
And just helping them to acknowledge, okay, this is how you guys are in your gender and it's what you bring in. How do we accept influence from both? Or if it's more the stereotype where the guy is walking in and swaggering and he just wants to just take his woman and have her just be caught up in it. Okay, how do we accept that, kind of, how the power of your masculinity is expressed? And help her to learn that she has enormous power in her femininity. 
The beauty of who she is and her physical nature and the softness of what she is, she has real power there. [00:08:48] And how can she embrace it and use it to guide him in? I look at so many wives and say, you have no idea how much power you have. You can embed yourself in your husband's brain in a heartbeat. Just by reaching over and touching him just right, just by flashing him a little skin, just by being a little bit flirty, he will replay that scene multiple times a day, multiple times a week.
I actually had a couple I was doing therapy with earlier this week, and I said, you know, if you just reach over and you just goose him occasionally and be playful with it, he would think about that several times a day. He said, "I think about that for a year." And tell her you have so much power in your femininity. Embrace it. 
So getting them to talk about it and realize both are rich, both are good, both have their own kinds of power and accept influence from each other and just play with it, work with it. [00:09:46] 
Laura Dugger: Love hearing the stories too, that really illustrates that. Is it possible for some people to never reach an orgasm?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Research tells us that a very small minority of men never reach orgasm. So that's pretty rare. Most guys enter every sexual encounter, most being at least 99% of guys enter every sexual encounter expecting an orgasm in that encounter.
The reality of it is, for women, it doesn't work that way. Only about 25% of women tell us that orgasms are reliable, that they're going to likely have one most of the time. About a third of women tell us that they have one usually. About a third of women tell us that they have one sometimes. And about 9% of women tell us that they never have.
We've got a fair number of women that will tell us that they never have one. Two-thirds of women say it only happens on occasion, but about 10% don't. 
Is it important that they have one? [00:10:46] That's kind of up to them and up to their spouse. We do see that women who have orgasms 50% of the time or more report a much higher level of satisfaction in the marriage and in their sex life. So, we know it adds to it, it adds richness to it. And for that purpose, it may be worth pursuing. 
Is it something that every woman is capable of? We're not real sure. We think so. But for some, there may be some neurological issues that don't transmit the pleasure in a way that allows them to have an orgasm. So, there may be some women that can't. Same with the men who can't. 
But generally, with some good therapy, with somebody who's trained in what they're doing and a willingness to work at it, individuals can learn to have one. 
But to go back to your question, are there some that never do? Yes, there are some. It's a minority, but there are some that never do. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. For somebody listening that might relate to that, if they've never tried therapy before, that might be a great step. [00:11:50] 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. But we would encourage them to really be a good customer. Make sure that the person you're going to is truly trained in it. You want to ask them, have you been trained in it? How many men or women have you ever worked with who weren't able to have orgasms and what was the outcome of that therapy?
Because if they've never worked with it, but they've been trained in it, you probably want to find somebody else, unless they're the only ones in town. And then you might want to give it a try. But just be a wise, savvy consumer. There's a lot of people that say they've been trained and they know what they're doing that tends to wind up doing some damage. So just be careful. 
Laura Dugger: That's great advice. Love that. Okay, another question. Who all struggles with pornography and why is it so dangerous? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Some of that is really tough to know because the research on it is controversial, in part because when you start to ask people, we're not sure if they're really telling us the truth because many people feel like it's not an okay type of a behavior. [00:12:55] 
But what we see from the research that's out there is it seems like most men at some point in time will be exposed to it, will find it attractive, and will be drawn to it. We're seeing an increasing number of females that are getting tied up in it. 
The more conservative estimates are running 25-30% of porn consumers are female. A lot of the studies are saying that it's much closer to the 50%. We see that especially for younger generations. So, old guys like me, our wives may not be as much drawn to it. For the millennials, we're seeing almost an even split in whether the males or females are looking at it.
For many people, it's almost a rapid-onset addiction because it's such a powerful type of a stimulation. [00:13:53] It can set itself up very quickly as a primary kind of a drive and hooks people pretty quick. For those, the cost can be pretty high because it distracts them from work, it distracts them from a relationship. 
The research is controversial right now on what it's doing in rewiring the brain. But a lot of the research seems to suggest that it is having an impact into the brain and how the brain is wired and what's going on neurochemically for the brain.
Some of the biggest impacts we see is that setting up an unrealistic expectation of what relational sex looks like. Pornography is an edited work. So they're going in and they're cutting and they're pasting and they're picking people who can do things that maybe aren't always normal or have parts that aren't always normal and they're presenting it as this is how normal sex looks, these are normal sex practices and this is how bodies normally respond. 
Many times we know, as sexologists, well, That's really not true. That's not what normal looks like. [00:14:56] That's kind of fantasy sex. And it was edited to look that way or the direction of it is all set up. But then they bring that expectation into the relationship and they get disappointed.
Many of the both males and females that I work with who struggle with kind of compulsive pornography use talk about how that's easy sex. I don't have to negotiate somebody else. I can look at it. It's really powerful stimulation. It's enjoyable. I can have an orgasm and then move on. 
But what they do then is they train themselves to that intensity of stimulation. We see guys having difficulty with erectile dysfunction, guys having difficulty experiencing orgasm, women with the same thing. And what we find is not uncommon that over time they begin to lose interest in partnered sex because this is really fantasy-based as powerful. [00:15:57] 
Now, that's going to vary from person to person. I have clients that I work with that are like, "Yeah, I watched it for a little while and I don't understand the interest. It's just fake." And they don't get caught up in it. So everybody who looks at it doesn't get caught up in it. But I encourage couples to be really careful with it because it is a powerful stimulation and can create some real hunger, yearning, and longing for it that gets disruptive. 
Because of the power that it has, some sex therapists would recommend it as part of treatment to do it. What I've seen is that it has enough of a caustic effect, enough of a toxic effect, that it's not something that I'd ever recommend. I don't see it helpful ever to bring somebody else into the sexual relationship, ever bring a third party in. Whether that be in fantasy, whether that be in picture, whether that be in video, or whether that be a real person. [00:16:59] 
God says to honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred, not to let our sexuality be flawed into the streets, and not to let our well be polluted. So anytime we bring something in or we share it with others, it tends to do damage. And in my experience, pornography often fits into, or always fits into that, that we're bringing somebody else into the marriage bed, and it always does damage. 
Laura Dugger: That's such good caution. Thank you. How can we live with sexual integrity and teach our children to do the same? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Those are two really critical but very broad questions. How do I live with sexual integrity? For me, that starts by having a vision of what sexual integrity looks like, and sitting down and really wrestling with what does my personal sexual integrity look like, and then what does sexual integrity look like as a couple, and then begin to be on that path. [00:18:00] 
Because we're human, we're not ever going to be perfect with it. But as I get on the path and allow for grace and forgiveness from the past, and grace for my humanity and mess-ups, but continue to strive forward, I can let go of the shame that I might have for the past.
I tell people we need to get to the place that we can say, wow, yeah, that's pretty icky. That's a part of my past. I'm not proud of it but I'm no longer ashamed of it. It no longer controls me. And I can share it with you and not be proud of it, but not be ashamed.
Because when we step before our kids, and we're trying to teach them, if we're bound up in shame, our kids feel that. And our kids take on the shame, and they don't know what the shame is about, so they tie it to our sexuality, and sex becomes a shaming thing. 
Where if I can step in and go, "Yeah, I did some really stupid stuff. Now, I'm not ashamed of it any longer. I've forgiven myself. But man, I hope you don't do those stupid things. You might. [00:19:00] And if you do, you know what? There's grace and forgiveness for it. And you'll be fine. But please don't hurt yourself like I did." Now I'm inviting them to a different kind of sexual integrity. 
You know, integrity is not being perfect. Integrity is being real. Integrity is being transparent. Integrity is just being authentic with who I am. If I can figure out how to do that, it's much easier to teach my kids how to be people of sexual integrity. 
Yeah, is that who you want to be? Really? Okay. So let me know when you get hurt. Because it's going to happen. But I can't stop you from it anyways. So I'm guiding them into real, open, honest, transparent kind of relationships. To me, that's what sexual integrity looks like, where we're presenting vision and I'm being real in how well I'm doing and moving toward it. 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. What are some subtle messages or cultural topics that people should be aware of that may be a distortion of God's view on sexuality? [00:20:00] 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think the biggest one is sex is just about physical pleasure. That sex is not just about physical pleasure, but it's also inconsequential, that I can do whatever I want to whenever I want to, that I can find somebody who does whatever I want them to whenever, and it won't have a cost. 
And the reality of it is, our sexuality is so central, so core to our heart, that acting on that does have an impact to us. Making it just about the physical pleasure tears the heart of it right out. And you can't have something that critical torn out of who we are without leaving an enormous wound.
I think a related piece that comes into it is that culture, and even within the church culture, teaches that sex is a need. That so angers me when I hear people talking about sex as a need. Usually, it's in terms of how frequently a man needs sex. [00:21:00] 
I've read many books that say guys need sex every 36 to 72 hours, and I just get really angry at it. Not that men are driven to it, not that men desire it that frequently, not that they're hungry for it. Yes, okay, I don't question that. For many men, that is about the frequency that they get hungry for. But to say that we need it moves it into a whole different realm, a different category.
God created us as men to be holy warriors. And He told us that if we stand arm-in-arm as a squad or as a battalion, the gates of hell itself don't stand a chance. There's nothing that can stand against us. Oh, except your sexuality. That's got control over you. I'm sorry. You just need that. No, you're going to have to act somehow or another. And we totally diminish our masculinity. We make it subject to a drive, to a desire in saying that we need it. [00:22:01] 
Then the flip side of that is, if men need sex, what does that make our wives? They become simply the object to fulfill our need. I want my wife to be way more than an object who fulfills my need. I want my wife to desire me. I want my wife to want to connect with me. I want us to move into our sexual intimacy because we desire to, not because we need to. 
And the desire might be: I want to please you. The desire might be: you're less grumpy if we do. But I want it to be because we desire to, not because it's a need. And I think it really robs the beauty, the pleasure, the celebratory aspect of it, it robs the richness, it robs the heart out when we talk about it as being a need.
So, I think that those two powerful myths I work with a lot in my office, you know, that it's just about the physical and that it's a need. [00:23:01] When we bring the spirit of it in, the heart of it in, both of those tend to fall apart for me. And so, if it's about those two myths, we've robbed it of something that's really critical and precious. 
Laura Dugger: What are some benefits for married couples who do connect frequently in this area? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: There's a number of studies that look at it, and I wouldn't be able to identify all of them, but our immune system is improved. Many will point to that. We see overall better health. One well-done research study showed that a decrease in depression overall.
To me, the biggest advantage is just watching what happens in the couple. When a couple has sex with each other and they connect with each other through that act, the bonding, the chemical bonding that goes on, really ties them together. 
We have what John Gottman, a marriage researcher, calls positive sentiment override. [00:24:01] That I get to where you make me feel really good, so I have a lot more grace for you. You know, you did a really stupid thing, but you made me feel really good last night. So we'll kind of ignore the stupid thing.
And we see the couple just do better together. They play better together. They have more grace for each other. And I think it's because of what's going on biochemically in their body, but it's also because they've got time that they just play together. And sex becomes part of the richness of what ties them in together. 
Like I said, there's plenty of research on the physical benefits to our systems, to our bodies, but I love what it does in the relationship for a couple. I think that's just worth all of it. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's awesome to hear such a positive view. What is a healthy way to decide how often to be intimate with your spouse? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: One that starts with the end in mind. And if the end in mind is a certain number, you're going to do damage. [00:25:03] If the end in mind is a certain frequency, a certain way of being, I think you do damage. 
If the end in mind is, I want to intimately connect with you on a regular basis, okay, now that can work. And now we step back and we get curious with each other. So, how can we go about it? What gets in the way of us intimately connecting? How can we get that out of the way? 
So, we've got three preschoolers. Yeah, we can't just get them out of the way. How do we problem-solve connecting with each other, making time sacred that we're husband and wife, that we're not mom and dad? 
When a couple gets real about their situation in life, when they are focused on the vision I think they're able to come up with a plan that works pretty well. I do think it works better when couples schedule. There's very little else that we do successfully in life that we're not intentional about, including scheduling. [00:26:02] 
Couples will often come in and say, "We just haven't had sex in like three months." "So when did you plan for it?" "Well, we didn't, we're just waiting for it to happen." Clearly, that's not working. So, let's be intentional about it. Let's set aside time that you're going to be husband and wife. Set aside time that you're going to be lovers. Get intentional about it and lean into it.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered. 
From efficiency apartments to 4-bedroom units and single-family homes, Leman Property Management has been providing a place for people to call home for nearly 40 years. [00:27:01] Whenever you start a search for a rental, start that search with Leman Property Management. With a professional and friendly staff to serve you from the first time you walk in their doors, you won't be disappointed. 
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com. and there you can search for their different communities. You can also like them on Facebook or call their leasing office at (309) 346-4159. 
Laura Dugger: We only have one more question left. We are called The Savvy Sauce for a reason because savvy means practical knowledge or insight. So, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, we see that communication between a husband and wife is so critical to any part of the relationship. And we're talking about the sexual relationship, so to get to a couple talking about it. 
For me, the easiest, most powerful way to do that is just pick a book, really good book on this subject written by experts, and read it out loud to each other and use that as the spark for the conversation. [00:28:07] So read a book out loud together and use it to talk with each other, use it to communicate. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. And you've even gone one step further and make it very easy for us to find a list of books because you have that on your website.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, because there's a lot of books out there that are filled with quite a bit of mythology that are not founded in what we know about what works in healthy sexuality. It's not a comprehensive list on our website because it's not there doesn't mean it's not a good book. But we've picked several books that I have found really work well in helping couples to talk about their sex life and to enrich it and to grow it if they spend time reading it and talking about it with each other. 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. That's something we can all do today. We're going to list your website in the show notes. 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: And if you could just say it one time for us here. 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. Intimatemarriage.org. The exercises are under the section called Try This at Home. It's pretty easy to find them. [00:29:06] 
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, your time has been so valuable to us. You have so much insight and knowledge, and I love the biblical principles that you founded all of this on. So thank you for your work, and thank you for joining us today. 
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks, Laura. 
Laura Dugger: Dr. Mike and I have a mutual friend, Dr. Douglas Rosenau, and today we want you to participate in a giveaway so that you get a chance to win Dr. Douglas Rosenau's book, A Celebration of Sex. Just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and look at our "Giveaway" tab for your chance to enter. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:30:06] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? [00:31:06] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:32:09] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

5 Ways To Deepen Your Intimacy In Marriage With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Douglas Rosenau

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults 
 
5. Ways To Deepen Your Intimacy In Marriage With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
 
**Transcription Below**
 
1 Corinthians 13:4-8(a) NIV “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau has truly been a pioneer in Christian sex therapy. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, author, speaker, adjunct professor, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. His training in both theology and counseling helps couples enrich and reclaim God’s wonderful gift of sexual intimacy.
 
Dr. Doug’s Website
Dr. Doug on Twitter 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Books by Dr. Doug with various co-authors:
Total Intimacy
Soul Virgins
Celebration of Sex 
Celebration of Sex for Newlyweds
Celebration of Sex After 50
Secrets of Eve by Dr. Archibald Hart, Catherine Hart Weber, and Debra Taylor
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 [00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:19]
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you. 
Check them out today at midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure to put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship. 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
Today I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Douglas Rosenau. He has truly been a pioneer in Christian sex therapy. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, author, speaker, adjunct professor, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. [00:01:25] 
His training in both theology and counseling helps couples enrich and reclaim God's wonderful gift of sexual intimacy. He was also my professor and supervisor in graduate school, so my husband and I know him well. 
Today we talk about deepening levels of marital intimacy, and you will hear him use a car analogy as he explains brakes and accelerators for couples in the bedroom. I hope you find this chat to be fun and beneficial. 
Hello, Dr. Doug. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Oh, this is exciting because we've known each other so long. I'm just glad to be here. This is going to be fun.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for joining us. You are a co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that journey? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, Laura, it started way back in the 70s, where a friend of mine, when I was working on my doctorate, went to take a sex therapy class. I was at Northern Illinois at the time, at a university. She took it at Loyola Med School in Chicago. [00:02:27] And it just piqued my curiosity, and it made me think, The church doesn't deal with sex very well.
So I went and took classes from the med school in sex therapy. Then the psychology had a sex therapy practicum. So it's kind of like way back then God was saying, I would like you to cultivate a sexually healthy church, and I would like you to be able to really unfold some of this, especially for people of faith. 
Laura Dugger: And you have done that so well. I know that having a good theology of sex has always been very important to you. So can you just give us a brief overview of your beliefs in that area?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, people sometimes often ask me, why did... you and I, and many of our listeners will believe there is a creator God. So why did that creator God create us sexual beings, male and female? Which back in Genesis it says we're created in His image, male and female. [00:03:26] 
I think when people ask me, why did God create sex, I would say because He's intimate and loving, and He really wanted to have some ways that human beings could express that. And so our sexuality really to me is a reflection of who God is and how He relates and the importance of relationships, which is a real important part of my theology, is that sex was about intimacy, not about the buzz, the rush, the excitement. But it's about connection. 
So my theology would be we're sexual beings because it adds a richness to every relationship, just being gendered, man and woman. And then the fact that we can be sexually attracted and aroused and enter into relationships and especially into marriage where there can be a gentle expression, to me, that's really reflecting a lot of who God is and the oneness and the intimacy that He would like us to experience as humans. 
Laura Dugger: You say that so well, and you've written about it in so many of your books, which are all wonderful. [00:04:27] We will link to those in the show notes so everybody can see where to learn more. But what would you say are some factors that influence the level of intimacy spouses will experience with one another? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: What I think is really important when we look at intimacy and I'm thinking of... I work a lot with couples, with moms, with kids and just families, you know? And so I'm thinking it's so complex when you think about, how do we create a really good sex life together?
But I think part of it is just time and energy, you know, that we don't set enough time apart. I think that there's part of it that sometimes we maybe, even like this podcast, we really haven't taken the time to really think through... like a question that I like to ask couples is, what does sex mean to you? And I think that if they can think that through, like is expressing affection, it's recreation, it's whatever it is, but it's really complex. [00:05:27] 
And all of those factors have filled the meaning they want it to be in their sex life. There's just all kinds of roadblocks, all kinds of barriers to express affection or to have the energy to play and to have fun together. Especially if you have children that are interfering with those times.
Laura Dugger: Certainly. And that's so many people listening today. So in that stage, you mentioned time and energy. How do they carve out their schedule to make sure they save time and energy to connect with one another? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I think sometimes husbands don't realize, and we're going to talk about aphrodisiacs later, but I don't think husbands realize sometimes that a real aphrodisiac would be them letting their wife go take a bubble bath and them getting the kids ready for bed and reading a story or when they come home from work, maybe taking time to take the kids totally off of her for a while. [00:06:24] 
That type of... not only does it show concern and her heart will be... and because her heart is more connected, then her body will be more open and desire. But I don't think we think sometimes just things that little gestures like that they can make a real difference with time and energy, like giving the kids a bath, like maybe taking the time to take them out to the park while mom, you know, just...
But I think that the other way around, there's also ways that when we look at it, that wives can really be, you know, just with the flirting and just some of those types of things that when you're tired don't come as easy. But I mean, every once in a while my wife will playfully grab my crotch. That's not for her sake. That's for me. You know what I mean?
So I think some of those little gestures of just flirtatiousness and flashing them now and again or whatever it is, I think those take a little extra energy, a little extra thoughtfulness, and intentionality both ways to make it. So it's so complex of what gets in the way. A lot of these little things that can make a real difference in terms of just a romantic love life that's invigorating. [00:07:33] 
Laura Dugger: So, in general, what would you say are a few brakes and accelerators for both genders? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I think some of the breaks we're already getting at. And that is a big one. There's a book called Secrets of Eve. They studied in thousands of women. When I read that study, I thought, you know what's the biggest break for women? I thought was going to be desire. It's like four on the list. 
The biggest is fatigue. It's just being tired. Another one that was really a break for wives, especially, was not feeling emotionally connected. Because they really want their husband to make love to them, not just to have sex. So I think that can be a break. 
So what would be accelerators? Well, part of it would be truly paying attention, you know, making time and maybe the self-nurture working with fatigue with an app or somehow being able to work around that. Just gender differences, too. [00:08:33] 
I don't think we can walk in each other's shoes fully. It's really difficult at times. Like, young couples will come to me and the wife will say to me, "Why is my husband walking around naked all the time?" And I'll say, "Oh, sweetheart, I think he's walking around naked because that's what he wants you to do." 
And they'll say to me, "Well, him just hanging out doesn't do much for me." But I say, "Oh, but your body... you're Eve to him. There is an attraction there." I think a break could be just staying in mommy clothes and old sweatshirts and jeans and not dressing up and being sexy. I think a break sometimes was not realizing for the husband a real accelerator is just naked, you know? 
I was laughing because I was reading one thing on the internet where it's saying that, you know, here's what is really accelerators for wives. There's like pages of, you know, feed the kids and take time to shave and put a little aftershave and do this or that. [00:09:33] And the advice to women were "come naked and have food". That was their advice of the great accelerators. 
So there's a lot of difference there of what would be a break and accelerator. I think just gender-wise, but some of these are in general. I think like making time, that would be a break and an accelerator to really make time for each other.
I think that idea of just being flirtatious and flirting where it doesn't have to lead anywhere, I think that's a real accelerator. So I think there's some of those that would be in common too. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. I love it. You also teach often about lovemaking as a continuum. Could you break down that continuum for us? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Okay. So, what I think can happen is if we did it on a continuum of 0 to 10... I oftentimes get couples complaining about duty and pity sex. That it isn't fun for the wife definitely, and it isn't really fun for the husband either. [00:10:34] 
So I think 0 to 2 is... I usually start with just pity sex. That's one. Well, you know, you need it or, you know... And then the duty sex is, well, this is my responsibility, but it's really not done with gracious giving or any type of real invitation. 
So what I say is that what we're trying to do is get into nurturing, connecting, and passionate sexuality and lovemaking. So the nurturing lovemaking would be... and I know I'm stereotyping a little bit, but about 80% of relationships, the man is the high drive. More testosterone, will think about sex more frequently, desire more physical release and just enjoyment. 
To me, if I'm thinking of that, so three and four of nurturing sex would be the wife maybe saying, "You know, I hadn't thought about it all day. I'm really tired, but I know this is a language that really meets your soul needs, your heart needs, and really is something that connects with you. [00:11:45] I don't want an orgasm tonight, but we could even do intercourse, but it's going to be more nurturing than passionate or connecting." 
So I think when I look at the continuum, most really good sex takes place about three to six. It's really nurturing and connecting. It's passionate at times. You really have to have that 45 minutes to an hour. Sometimes it's hotel sex, it's on vacation where you're really feeling connected and rested and no kids are there. They're all at grandma's, you know? 
I was hearing a lecture a while back and it talked about good enough sex. It was Barry McCarthy. I like he writes really well. But Barry was saying, how would you define good enough sex? And all of us were saying, well, saddling, I think, not very good at all. 
He said, no, that is really where most of lovemaking takes place from three to six on the continuum. [00:12:41] He said it really is something that's done for connecting, for recreation, for kind of clearing the air and making you an item again, because this is not something you do with anyone else. 
I think when I look at the continuum, and I'm certainly speaking especially into weary moms, you know, sometimes it's just going to be nurturing. And sometimes it's going to be... you know, because women are so unpredictable. You know, it may be nurturing and all of a sudden, I think, this is fun. 
Because Laura, we're really seeing that with women, desire oftentimes comes after activity doesn't motivate it. And so it's not like, wow, I'm feeling horny, let's do it. It's kind of like, I'm exhausted, but this could be meaningful. And since you initiated and you've been really nice for three days, this could be a good thing. [00:13:32] 
That's still not desire at times. Sometimes it's actually in the bed and bodies start to be aroused and then you're thinking, Yeah, we should do this more often, maybe.
So I think that there's a part of that, that when you try to think through that continuum, that sometimes it's going to be nurturing, but it could bump into connecting before you know it, and maybe even get up to passionate, get up to seven, eight, or nine. But I think with that continuum, we could really think, yeah, good enough is good.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And it's very realistic, like you're saying, meeting that couple where they're at. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Right. Like wives have said to me sometimes, "I know you have a greater desire than I do, but I don't want you masturbating. I'll give you a hand job. We'll do something manual or we'll do something where we can be connected and be intimate. It may be a three. But sometimes we just need to do three for you, bud, because I can't muster a six." [00:14:30] 
So I think that there's some of that when I look at that continuum that we're saying, yeah, three's good. 
Laura Dugger: Three's good. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah. 
Laura Dugger: And you've even mentioned... 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And it's nurturing at times. 
Laura Dugger: And you write in your book that sometimes women are coming to you saying, I actually do not desire an orgasm every single time, especially in certain stages of life when I'm really stressed or there's little kids at home. And you give a rule of thumb in there that, Hey, that's okay. Let's just say at least 50% of the time she's reaching orgasm. But then letting her off the hook if she does want to offer that nurturing connection.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I get wives saying to me, you know, my clients saying to me, "My husband can climax in two minutes, but I just take more time and focus and I get distracted. I'm more like 15, 20." And they're saying, "I just don't want to take that time sometime. I'm too tired, but I really would like to be sexual." [00:15:29] 
I've had husbands say, "No, if you can't climax and really have fun and get into it..." I remember one young couple I was working with and she had two under the age of two. So she had an infant, like a two-month-old and a whatever, 18 month or two. So he was just saying, "Oh no, we can't do nurturing if you can't get into it." 
And this is so funny. Finally, she looked at him and she said, "You know, I take care of the babies. I take care of so many different things. What is two minutes of my time?" I looked at him and I said, "A little quick, aren't we? A little quick here." But I think she was trying to say, "Buster, you need this. I want to nurture you too."
Laura Dugger: Sure. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And I thought that was funny. "What's two minutes of my time?"
Laura Dugger: I love it. You have a gift for inviting people into this conversation about sexual intimacy in marriage and you've helped give vocabulary to this topic through your many books and your seminars. [00:16:33] 
So the book that we're going to focus on today is one that you recently co-authored with Dr. Deborah Neal, and it's entitled Total Intimacy. Can you describe the different colors and types of intimacy you cover in this book?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Sure. I think that this will really help us with the brakes and accelerators too. Before I begin that, you kind of triggered in me how difficult it is sometimes just to have a language and to be real, for couples too, to really create language. 
One young couple I was working with, they all of a sudden started laughing and I said, "What's going on?" And they said, "Well, my pastor that referred me to you said, "You will see Dr. Doug, it's going to be like that old show, Mr. Rogers. It's like you're in Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. But then things are going to come out of Doug's mouth that are nothing like Fred Rogers would ever say. But don't be alarmed. He's a good man. He just talks about sex so much he has no filter." And I just laughed like, "No, this is not Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. I'm sorry."
Laura Dugger: You're so funny. [00:17:39] 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: But I think we have to have the language. So what we were trying to think through was to color code and say, if you want a good sex life, alive and meaningful, you really need three types of intimacy. 
We started with green intimacy. Green intimacy was being intimate companions and being good friends. And we're saying that that's really foundational. You don't want to sleep with the enemy. So part of building trust, learning to just share life together, a lot of communicating.
So we talk through Green with things like learning how to really communicate well and the importance of that. We talk about building trust. We talk about even just sharing spiritually, things that create a deeper intimacy, a deeper sharing of life and companionship.
So we chose these colors in part meaningfully. The green was because so much of life and growth is green. Leaves and trees and grass and all of that is green. [00:18:35] So we thought, that's a good one to say, You gotta be growing that friendship and really feeling close to each other and feeling that intimate companionship.
Another part we talk about with green intimacy is you need physical affection. With physical affection in some ways is just like you have with your children, but it's still a physical affection that really is connecting. So sitting close on the couch rather than in your two separate easy chairs when you watch a movie together at home, just doing more hugging and just touching and that kind of thing.
What we're saying too, Laura, with the colors, and so I'm going to get into purple here now and talk about purple. So we say that the colors really are on a continuum of very light green to dark green. So there's probably some dark green that you may not do with your kids. 
You know, you may not sit in each other's laps basically for an hour. [00:19:34] That's probably not what you do with your kids. So that's really dark green. Then the light purple and purple, I think that's the color that's neglected and the type of energy that's neglected the most, which is being lovers, being flirtatious, but it doesn't have to lead anywhere.
With Purple, what I will say is, are you still kissing on the mouth, you know, passionately? And it doesn't have to be just in the bedroom. Could you on it before he goes to work? Give him a kiss for like five seconds right on the mouth, little tongue even maybe, but I mean, just really kiss. 
Or I'll say, could you hug for two minutes or even for a minute? Because sometimes people will say, well, tell me Dr. Doug, what the difference between green and purple intimacy is. And I'll say, well, if I met your wife at church, and I hugged her for a minute, what would you start thinking? You'd say, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is a little too intimate. [00:20:33] 
Now, if I gave her that five-second brotherly hug, we'd be cool. So green hugs are different than purple hugs in some ways. And a green kiss on the cheek is different than five seconds mouth to mouth, which you wouldn't do with your children. 
I think men especially really lose a lot of intimate sexual connecting and flirting because it always has to lead somewhere. One couple was saying, "He came home from work and I was feeling kind of frisky and I think tonight's the night and we're gonna have fun. So he came home and I was at the stove cooking and the kids were on a video in the den and he came up and grabbed me and hugged me and grabbed my boobs like he usually does."
And she said, "I felt like just kind of rubbing my butt in his crotch and just kind of playing with him a little bit and having fun." [00:21:27] But she said, I knew if I did that, he'd want to have sex immediately. He'd make sure the kids had another half-hour video. He'd make me stop the meal." And I looked at him, I said, "Buster," I said, "you're losing a lot of fun times together because it always has to lead somewhere." 
So I think that purple to me is probably neglected. Now, light purple, of course, would be where I talk about with dating couples and that kind of thing. I'm saying, To me, when I look at this, God blessed genital expression of sexuality for marriage and between a man and a woman. But I think that whole feeling attracted and aroused and enjoying. 
So I look at purple about... I always say it's for sensual connecting. It's not for arousal, but it is arousing. You know, because I mean, you kiss the woman of your life or the man of your life on the mouth for 10 seconds, there could be a little arousal there. Does that make sense? Kind of like, we don't do purple enough, I don't think, Laura. We really don't to allow that to be there. 
Laura Dugger: That makes perfect sense. And it's very clarifying to hear all of your language around this. That really helps. [00:22:33] 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: When I talk to couples, sometimes I give them the language, like the colors. Like one young couple said... Oh, I think they were in their 40s, but anyway, that's young to me. But they just said, Oh, we do purple hugs all the time. And I said, "Well, what's purple hugs?" No, they were younger because they didn't have kids yet. They didn't have any children yet. 
They said, "We do shower hugs." I said, "What's a shower hug?" They said, "Well, we both like to take a quick shower before we go to work in the morning. So the one that's in there first, you have shower hugs, and we get in there, we get in the shower together and hug each other naked, rub a little bit, but we know we got to get to work. So it's always purple hug. It's always purple, but it's so much fun. And I thought, Yeah, that's a good example of purple. Shower hugs. 
Laura Dugger: Perfect. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Shower hugs. 
Laura Dugger: Practical thing somebody could try tonight. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah. And just kind of coaching, I think, especially husbands up about how learn to flirt. One of my couples, she was really saying, I know that he likes my body, but I just hate flaunting it. I got a little bit of body image, which is a big break for women at times, this whole body image. [00:23:36] 
But this was so funny. She said, "I was at the picture window. No one was around, out on the front yard, and he was busy out there mowing the yard with our riding mower." And she said, "I didn't have any problem or anything. I just lifted up my sweatshirt and flashed him." And she said, "He ran right over a flower bed." She said, "I think I need to do it more often. It was really a surprise."
But I think that's purple. I think that the ability to say, we have ways that we can arouse and excite and have fun together. And then the orange would be sex. But I always talk about how light orange to dark orange and sometimes what we neglect with the lighter orange is just enough foreplay that can be connecting and arousing. [00:24:23] 
And then as we got into the orange section of the book is where we really talked a lot about the continuum too, and talked a little bit about the differing desires, and talked about breaks and accelerators in this Total Intimacy book. So our orange, we're trying to not be simplistic. 
And I think what we're trying to say is, here's the thing that really bugs me, is I come from a real conservative Christian background, and I don't think within Christianity or within concerted faith, Islam and Jewish too at times, I don't think we give women enough of a sexual voice. We oftentimes say it's your duty to pleasure your husband, to serve him. And that's just not God's plan. God's plan is it be mutual.
This is just recently. I don't know what she was. It was like 26. And she was just saying, "Well friend, do you enjoy sex for yourself and for your..." And she said, "Oh, that would be selfish. I think God wants me to be there to serve my husband." [00:25:19] 
And I said to her, I said... I'm dad to them. So I use language. I said, "Sugar, listen to me." I said, "Do you know what the biggest turn-on to a husband is?" And she was like, "Dr. Doug..." She was hanging on my every word there. And I said, "The biggest turn-on to a husband is a turned-on wife." And I said, "You not really enjoying your own and making it mutual."
We really talk about mutuality in the book and in our section of saying, this is something that is unique. It'll have uniquely male flavors, uniquely female flavors, and ways and things that are good. But you need to learn that language. You need to learn how to pleasure each other and how to please and to really tailor it to that person and not expect them to be like you.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. There's so much wisdom packed in all of that. I want to touch on something that you had mentioned earlier with that 80% of the time that it is the husband that's the higher desire in the relationship. They're never the same, but 20% of the time the wife is. Let's speak to that wife. [00:26:24] Because sometimes they're not given as much air time.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And when you think about that or actually if we had a hundred men, that's 20. That's a lot of men. And here's another thing that I think is really important to think about is in a marriage if you're a little bit more the high drive, high desire or the low drive, low desire, those are hard roles to fill. Because let's assume... and I'm going to get to the 20%.
Laura Dugger: Sure.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: But let's assume, well, either way, the person who's the low desire will feel like I'm the gatekeeper. I'm the stick in the mud. I'm the one that's always pouring water on the... you know, raining on the parade. And the one that's the high desire thinking, "Oh, I'm just going to open myself up for rejection. I hate to be always the initiator." 
So I think whether it's the husband or wife, those are not easy roles to be in, that we can kind of help. [00:27:22] So if the husband is the lower desire, then helping him feel like he's just as much a man, because kind of the stereotype is men are always horny, always ready. And it's not true, obviously. 
So it's really being able for the high desire person to kind of cater a bit to the lower desire and realize that the lower desire is going to slow it down and make it richer at times. And then the lower desire not making it like, you know, you're a sex fiend, but more like, wow, you express and feel things through our lovemaking that I don't all the time, but talk to me and let's negotiate and think through what would be a helpful amount of time. 
I think what happens sometimes with the low desire, high desire, whether it's the wife or the husband, is I think it can get to where they just get frustrated with each other rather than really talking it through carefully. So often, it's really not about numbers. It's about the heart. It's about really talking it through. [00:28:27] 
So that the couple comes in and says... you know, the one partner says, well, we make love maybe twice a month and I would like to make love once or twice a week. So they're really far apart. So I'm trying to help them really hear each other's heart. 
So I'll tell the lower desire drive one, I'll say, you know, that person's not a sex fiend. This is not someone that just wants to use you. But then I'll talk to the higher drive and say, you know, he or she doesn't hate sex and enjoys it with you. So sometimes they leave my office really understanding each other better and really negotiating and talking it through from their heart more. 
They may have been making love twice a month, and I may have upped it to three or four times a month, but they're both happy because they've really thought through beyond the metrics, beyond the numbers, to really understanding high and low drive and frequency, and they've really talked about it. [00:29:29] 
So I think that's so important whether it's the wife or the husband, to really be able to negotiate, to engage, to accept, to not be judgmental, but just to have curiosity about, Okay, what would be good for you? Well, that wouldn't be good for me, but talk to me. What could we do to make it different? 
I think sometimes that the conversations around it and trying not to be judgmental. But just to realize it will vary and sometimes it'll vary with the wife being the high drive. 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And so then they're going to have to take the high drive position and not make that person feel inferior or less or never wanting sex, but really just trying to think it through, how do I help my husband engage? 
I think another thing that happens with drive at times is sometimes we feel like nothing's going to ever affect that drive. But it does. I'll oftentimes get husbands in my office saying, is something wrong with me? Like one lawyer recently, he said, "I was preparing for a case. I put in 14-hour days, sometimes two weeks in a row." And I said, "There's nothing wrong with your libido. You're just exhausted." [00:30:31] 
I don't care if you're a man with a high drive, you're exhausted and your libido has been poured into that trial you have coming up. Sometimes just to be able to talk, negotiate, understand is important in working it through. 
Laura Dugger: It's so good. And to not be critical or judgmental, to the understanding. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Right, right. Let me just do a real... I mean, this is a little bit different, but so often we will bump into the orange part just with dysfunction. Some. Like sometimes there'll be wives with pain and I always say, Don't play through pain. See your OBGYN or see a physical therapist that deals with pelvic floor because there's a lot of good female physical therapists pelvic floor specialists that could help deal with pain. 
Then sometimes I'm getting things like erectile difficulties, you know? Like, "I just cannot stay erect." This was one of my husband's stories where they came in and they were really struggling with it. And what had happened was this, was he came home from being on the road traveling. His job called quite a bit of traveling. 
He'd been gone three days, came home Friday. They were both really excited. But he fought Atlanta traffic for an hour and a half to get home. It's typical Atlanta traffic where I live. [00:31:44] And then she was so excited. She said, "Let's go out and have a good meal together and just talk and catch up and then you know what we're going to do tonight." So they were all excited. 
So he went out, had a couple of beers or a couple of martinis and a big meal and came home exhausted. He couldn't get erect. He couldn't. And I thought, "Oh, dear Lord, I wish I could have been there right then because I would have said to them, don't get nervous. He fought Atlanta traffic. He's exhausted from three days of being away. He really is excited to see you. It's nothing about you. It's nothing about him. It's just tired and he had probably one too many drinks, maybe, which is a depressant, and a big meal, and so on and so forth. 
So they came into me all upset because both of them were mentally up on the bedpost worried about can he ever... you know, his whole erection and being able to be sexually aroused. [00:32:36] And it went away really quickly when they realized it was just normal things that will affect orange arousal at times for the man and the wife, for the high drive, low drive, whatever. If they acknowledge those and just accept it, oftentimes the dysfunction doesn't even take place. 
Laura Dugger: That's amazing and probably really helpful for somebody to hear because... 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Oh yeah, for wives especially, not to take it personal and just say, Oh baby, you must be tired. We'll try it again tomorrow."
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Got the rest of our lives. 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Leman Property Management is this episode's sponsor. I can't say thank you enough to this reputable company. Leman Property Management offers over 750 apartment homes in 11 different locations throughout Pekin, Illinois. Whatever price range you may be looking for, whatever apartment style you want to call home, Leman Property Management will have the place for you. 
Operating in Pekin for over four decades, they've developed the name associated with selection, service, and value. [00:33:40] They offer townhomes with quiet settings off the busy routes or spacious apartments on the edge of town. They have locations in the buzzing downtown if that's what you prefer or apartments with attached mini storage sheds of all sizes. They truly have every area of Pekin covered. Find out why so many Pekin residents have called the Leman property their home over the years. 
The friendly staff, many of whom have worked together now for 20 years or more, will make sure you are not disappointed. Find out more about them at midwestshelters.com or call their leasing office today at (309) 346-4159. You can also like them on Facebook at Leman Property Management Company. 
Laura Dugger: Now that you've given us language to feel more comfortable dialoguing about sexual intimacy with our spouse, what is the next step a listener can take today? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: What I would work on is for them to think through their green, purple, and orange and try to say, what would do to help us be better friends? Are we taking enough time? We haven't prayed together in ages. [00:34:48] Could we maybe hold hands and just pray over something together? 
So I would say, think through green a little bit better and what it would be about the green that would help them grow the friendship and the intimate companionship. Then I would think about purple and maybe think through, how could we be flirtatious? It wouldn't necessarily have to lead anywhere, but we could just be lovers and we could really enjoy each other. Then the orange. I know that there are ways that they could think of brakes and accelerators and try to sort out. 
So that would be my general idea of just saying, I think that there are three kinds of intimacy and three kinds that really help to make a great sex life and that you can't neglect any of the colors. 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And they've got this recording today as a resource if they want to listen to this together and they can pull some questions from everything that you've shared. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Good. 
Laura Dugger: So that's great. You have so many books and resources available. Do you mind just sharing more about those so our friends listening know where to find more information? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Okay. [00:35:46] Well, the one that we talked about more today is Total Intimacy, and it's available on Amazon, Christian Book, just a really short 100 pages, easy read, a lot of just practical suggestions. We really try to have a lot of good discussion questions in it. 
Then my big manual is called A Celebration of Sex, and it's a bestseller. Anything that sells over 100,000 copies is considered a bestseller. So A Celebration of Sex. What I oftentimes tell people with that manual is buy it for three or four chapters. You don't have to read all 400 pages. 
But you may buy it because of chapter six, natural aphrodisiacs and setting the mood. Or you might buy it for the chapter on making love during the children years and how can you stay lovers during those children years. 
Or you might buy it just for making love to your husband and trying to think through some different ideas and trying to understand a whole different reality and a whole different gender. [00:36:41] 
So I always tell when you buy like Celebration, the big book, and then we spun it off with some friends into Celebration After 50 for Sex and Aging with Jim and Carol and Childerston. And then half a little one's called Celebration Sex for Newlyweds where we have like 135-page little book that is really a nice wedding gift. So that would be that part of it. 
Then I've done some things with singles and I'm just working at revising that. But it's called Soul Virgins. But it's just the whole idea of how do we have boundaries and how do we work through really having the freedom of good choices in this culture that's so sexually saturated. Then a friend is helping me and I'm starting to try to tweet. So @DrDoug-isw, all little case.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will link to all of those in the show notes so somebody can easily find you and connect. And if you're local here to Atlanta, you're very lucky. This is where Dr. Doug has his private practice. 
So as we tie up today, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or discernment, and we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what's your Savvy Sauce? 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: My savvy sauce would be two-minute hugs. [00:38:02] I think couples are going to be really surprised when you take two minutes to melt into each other. Not a wooden perfunctory hug, but almost hearing each other's hearts, and really maybe even during that two-minute hug, whispering something really nice and affirming to your mate. 
If I were going to say, what do I want? One thing to take away: Please, please, please try a two-minute hug and see what that green, purple, orange, what you're kind of combining all of those and making that something really special, but it really can make a difference. It really can make a difference. 
Laura Dugger: Well, you are such a skilled therapist, you're a respectable leader, and you're my dear friend. So I'm just better from knowing you, and I'm sure our listeners are saying the same thing after hearing you today. So thank you for joining us. 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Thank you, Laura. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: You know we love giveaways here, so head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our giveaway tab. [00:39:02] Today we've purchased a copy of Dr. Doug's book that he wrote with Dr. Deborah Neal titled Total Intimacy: A Guide to Loving by Color. So head on over to our website for your chance to win. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:40:04] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:04] 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:04] 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
 
4. Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Song of Solomon, middle of 5:16 (NIV) “This is my lover, this is my friend,”
 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware:We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen’s Website 
Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Email Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Sex and the supremacy of Christ by John Piper and Justin Taylor
His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage
Five Steps to Romantic Love: A Workbook by Willard E. Harley, Jr. 
Hot and Holy: The Five Senses of Romantic Love by Sam Laing
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria 
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware of before you listen to this message.
Hey friends, many of you already know that marriage and family therapy is my background, and in graduate school, my specialization was Christian sex therapy. My professors and supervisors had such a profound impact on me. So I wanted to share all of them with you, in addition to a few other professional contacts I've made over the years. 
I think this is such an important subject that we're actually going to camp out here all week and bring you multiple speakers on this very topic. So I hope you enjoyed this week-long series on sexual wholeness.
[00:00:40]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:01:07]
Laura Dugger: Thank you for tuning in today as we have the privilege to hear from Dr. Jennifer Konzen. I want to let you know right away that this content is intended for adult listeners as we will be discussing sexual intimacy in marriage. Please use discernment if you have little ears present. 
Also, this content was designed for couples who are not currently in crisis. If you are in crisis, we would recommend seeking professional local help as soon as possible. 
Dr. Konzen has an impressive bio because she is a certified sex therapist, award-winning researcher, international speaker, adjunct professor, author, wife, and mother. 
Today she addresses topics related to overcoming difficulties connecting physically, gender differences related to arousal and desire, and ways to add pizzazz into the marital relationship. [00:02:01] I hope you leave our talk today equipped and encouraged. 
Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.
Laura Dugger: Welcome, Dr. Konzen.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: We are so honored to have you chat with us today. Let's start by laying the foundation for our chat. What does God have to say about sex?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's funny because people think there's not much in the Bible about sex, actually. Most people will say it says don't have it till you're married and don't ever turn your husband down. And that's about it. 
You know, there's a lot more that the Bible has to say with sex, which actually both of those have different questions to them. God says a lot about sex. He actually devotes an entire book of the Bible to it. The Song of Solomon is full of sensuality and sexuality. [00:03:00] 
So I mean, bottom line, when I'm talking about what God does say about sex, I talk about the overarching view of sexuality within the scriptures. You can see that painted throughout different parts of the Bible. 
One of my favorites, this is out of Piper and Taylor's Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, is where they explain how when you look at Ezekiel 16 and Ezekiel 23, God's actually addressing the nation of Israel, and He is talking about their idolatry. But he's using the language of adultery.
And it's amazing because when you look at it, He is explaining idolatry by using pictures that we get if you're in a married relationship, if you're thinking of getting married. The idea of a spouse being unfaithful, and many who are married have experienced unfaithfulness in their marriages, there's just nothing like the pain of adultery. [00:04:01] 
God uses this sexual language. He uses the language of adultery in very explicit sexual terms to show us His heart. He wants us to know Him. And that's just really helpful to me. Sexuality isn't this like God's over here and we're over here.
You know, you even look at the terms in Matthew 1:25 and Genesis 4:1, those are the terms where it says, Joseph did not ginosko Mary. He did not know Mary, in the Greek, until Jesus was born. And it says in Genesis 4:1, Adam yada Eve. Adam did not know Eve. It's actually the same word in two different languages that means "to know". 
And when you look at the use of that word throughout both the Old and New Testament, it's talking about a deep intimate knowing of. But that's the word that God uses to describe sexuality, this deep, intimate knowing. 
So when you look at the overarching view of sexuality, scripturally as far as your question about what does God have to say about it, is that He uses sexuality to connect with us at a heart level. [00:05:08] He wants us to know Him.
And then when He describes sexuality, it's about this deep, intimate knowing. It's really important to understand that because sexuality isn't just about the physical act. It's the whole intimate connection between us and another.
Actually that word "to know", ginosko and yada, it's the same word that describes our relationship with God when it says "I know the Father and the Father knows me. I know the sheep and they know my voice." It's the same word ginosko there. 
So that intimate knowing of one another, that's actually the same intimate knowing between Jesus and God, us and God, not because that relationship with God and Jesus is sexual, but because the depth of intimate connection between them is what's supposed to be happening in the sexual relationship.
So God's view of sexuality is not at all negative. [00:06:04] It's very, very positive. And it is a way that He then connects with us at a heart level.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is beautifully said. Thank you so much for all the background information, and that is an example-
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. That's a full conference in about two minutes.
Laura Dugger: There you go. And speaking of conferences, you do a lot of this and meet with a lot of clients. What sexual education do you often share with people?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, sexual education is vital when I'm working with people. And I think it's vital for most individuals because we don't actually know, number one, how it works, and we don't necessarily know what is common and what I would call normative. So what's normal.
So a lot of times people are confused by their bodies or they're confused by what's happening with their spouse. Like, why isn't this working? [00:07:00] A lot of the time when I'm working with men and women, I have to do some educating because there's a misunderstanding of how the sexual body works.
Well, the part of it has to do with how long it takes to stimulate somebody to achieve an orgasm. So it takes two to five minutes for the typical male to reach orgasm, and males need direct stimulation to the penis to reach orgasm. 
Women, on the other hand, when you ask, okay, how long does it take for women to reach orgasm, it takes about 20 to 30 minutes for the typical female. And the challenge with that is people tend to think that women reach orgasm... that all women reach orgasm during intercourse. And that's not even statistically true. Only about 30% of women reach orgasm through intercourse.
So if you're expecting that I'm going to have an orgasm through intercourse, you're going to have a slight math problem there. It takes men two to five minutes, it takes women 20 to 30. [00:08:02] So if you're expecting intercourse to get you to orgasm and he's... and this comes up with couples. He's, you know, not lasting long enough. 
And I've heard this from wives or I've heard husbands who are frustrated that their wives are not reaching orgasm. So you have to do a lot of education around the stimulation specifically, yes, to the female genitalia, that women need really indirect touch. In fact, if you do go directly to the clitoris and vigorously stimulate it, most women will go, Stop.
So the indirect touch for women is more meaning the caressing to the entire vulva versus the direct stimulation for men to the penile region. Not only is that difference in where and the type, indirect versus direct, but also in the length of time. So this one piece, educating restimulation is usually pretty helpful.
Laura Dugger: That's a great intro. [00:09:00] And even in your book, you will show the pictures of the anatomy and describe exactly what you're talking about.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Right. Yeah. And that's vital because most women actually don't know where their body parts are, where their sexual body parts are. They're not sure where they urinate from. They don't know where their urethra is. And then men don't know these things either about women. 
In fact, when I put up the picture of the vulva in conferences, and sometimes I've had a huge screen and the vulva is like 20 feet high, the reality is, it's the men as much as the women that are going, "Oh." Because there's this kind of belief that the clitoris is just the little knobby thing at the top of the vulva and they don't even know it's called the vulva. 
They'll call the full area the vagina. Actually, the vagina is just the tube that goes into the pelvic floor. The vulva is the entire area. And the clitoris they think it's just that knobby thing at the top. [00:10:02] When actually, the clitoris comes all the way down the legs of the clitoris, come all the way down around the vulva. 
I actually had a woman say to me, "I just learned that I have two sets of legs," which I thought was hilarious.
Laura Dugger: That's clever.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, isn't that funny? The reality is, yes, knowing anatomy and understanding the process of stimulation to orgasm, understanding how arousal works, and how the blood flow comes in, understanding how men and women are different around desire. Most men desire sexuality before engaging. Most women, especially post childbirth years, their desire doesn't kick in until they start touching and caressing.
So men and women are so radically different. And the physiological differences need to be explained so that couples can find out how to bring each other pleasure physically.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. [00:11:00] And let's camp there for just a moment. You have mentioned that even after childbearing that men and women will experience desire differently. And if that's not explained in culture, it seems like a lot of women think, If I'm not having the same drive as my husband, something's wrong with me. So could you unpack that a little bit more, about gender difference?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. Yeah. And let me just say, even as I start to unpack that, is that I do think it's not just a female thing. I do think, like I'd say, of those who come into my office, about 30% of the men have low desire. Meaning their wife has a higher desire. 
And when our culture tells us that all men want sex, and I've got men in my office and men that we all know in our communities that have low desire, they are also going, "What's wrong with me?" Or their wife is saying, "What's wrong with him? [00:12:01] And where else is he having sex? If he doesn't want sex all the time, he must be... at least he doesn't ask me to have sex, then he must be doing it somewhere else or there's something wrong with him."
So it is also this view of desire and that you should always want it if you're male is problematic for women often. Well, this is both husbands and wives. If their spouse doesn't feel desire, that the communication is "they're not attracted to me, they're not interested in me, they don't..." men don't necessarily. They'll use the word "want". "She doesn't want me." At least the men that I work with, that's the word that comes up. 
That if she isn't thinking about sex and if she's not initiating sex, then it means she doesn't want me. If she's not desiring sex. It is more common for men to desire to physically, well mentally image, think about filler arousal through their day, and so on. [00:13:05] 
You know, visually, they're stimulated, and they feel the desire to have an orgasm, have sex. Yes, that is... like statistically, we know that men do in general have a higher desire for sex. So what happens is, if women don't think about sex ahead of time, and then they therefore aren't maybe initiating it, the belief can be then "she doesn't want me. She's not interested in me." 
It's important to realize there are so many factors. Number one, [unintelligible 00:13:36] she's a researcher and a clinician, and she says this: desire doesn't actually kick in until the touch stuff happens, which I mentioned earlier. When you free people from that expectation that desire is supposed to happen beforehand, then they can go, "Oh, so once we get going, and my desire kicks in, that's actually normal." That's 70% of women. [00:14:00] So it's very freeing to find out that desire comes later.
So when our culture and our gendered expectations are, this is how sex works, whether it has to do with how old you are, whether it has to do what gender you are, what time of life you're in. It's really important to set some of those cultural expectations aside and realize the blaming that they cause and really a lot of the arguments that it causes or the hurt that it causes in marital relationships.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's great. And just such a grace-filled answer. Like you said, it offers freedom. And for those women, a lot of times they'll say, after a few minutes, like you said, indirect stimulation, maybe the caressing, touching, holding, that they think, Okay, this sounds like it's not a bad idea, and the desire will kick in.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yes.
Laura Dugger: So that's helpful to see for women. And I really appreciate you clarifying with men. Let's camp out there for a while now. [00:15:00] 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say, just from my clinical experience, I would say a good percentage of the couples I see, the reason... one of the reasons anyway, that they're coming in is that the men have low desire. 
Laura Dugger: And we don't hear about that often. Like you said, the wife may be feeling that he's not attracted to her or many other reasons. So what are some of those reasons why men in their married relationship have the lower desire?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, it can be physiological. If they have a low output from their testes of testosterone or if they have hypogonadism, meaning that low production of testosterone, it can absolutely affect desire because it affects motivation overall if the testosterone is low. 
But even if that's not the case, it may be life, it may be fatigue, it may be... I have individuals that they'll tell me they don't actually test as low in their testosterone, but that they just didn't think about it much when they were younger. [00:16:04] Really they definitely went through, you know, years of their life with masturbation, maybe, even with pornography. But that they'd hear about men who just always were wanting sex, and they would not identify with that gendered norm of wanting it all the time.
That can actually create lots of challenges as men come into their adulthood and these expectations of this is what a man is supposed to be like. And then they come into a marital relationship and that expectation is there from their wife, because of what our culture, society might say. 
Often these men aren't necessarily bothered by it until they're either starting to think, why aren't I like other men? Or until they're hearing from their spouse, why aren't you initiating? 
Really it can be caused by a great number of things. [00:17:01] It can be caused by work stress. That's a big one. It can be caused by a lack of sleep. And it can just be that they have an innate low desire—they don't actually think about it that much.
So one of the things I tell people is, okay, you have low desire, all right. You know, it's actually a diagnosis in the DSM. And I think that can be problematic sometimes if it's still kind of disorder, when it might not be a disorder at all.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Very freeing, again. And that can take away the shame even when you educate further. That's helpful.
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. First, the best-kept secret is their chicken for breakfast, which is served Monday through Saturday 6:30 a.m. until 10:30 a.m. 
My personal favorite are the chicken minis, four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
Second, did you know that Chick-fil-A caterers they will deliver and set up all of your food for your event such as your business meeting or your birthday party? There are even a few menu items that you can only get through catering, including the waffle potato chips and chilled grilled subs. 
Finally, did you know you can skip the line and earn your way toward free food in the process? Just download the free Chick-fil-A app so you can place your order and pay on your mobile device, then bypass the entire line as it's ready for you when you arrive at Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. 
For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to cfaeastpeoria.com. 
Laura Dugger: So what other areas of marital intimacy help foster healthy sexual intimacy? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Oh boy, yeah, this could be the whole time that we're together because there's a lot of areas. [00:19:02] You know, one of the first things that I work with with couples... Well, I tell them I'm a sex therapist, but really I'm an intimacy specialist. So I work with the overall intimacy in marriage and sexuality when it's not surrounded by all of the lovely pieces of what can be there in the overall intimate relationship. Sexuality is separated from that. It's not very fulfilling, either for the husband or the wife. 
So the areas that I first work on is what I would call verbal and emotional intimacy. So that has to do with how well a couple is really sharing heart-to-heart, how much they're expressing their fears, their hopes, their dreams, their mistakes, their... you know, all those more scary vulnerable parts?
So if that's not happening, if emotional connection isn't happening, if they're not talking heart to heart, it's pretty challenging to have a really intimate connection sexually. [00:20:08] 
And then definitely, I work quite a bit with touch overall. Oftentimes, when sexuality becomes problematic, all areas of intimacy become problematic. It kind of ricochets through the rest of the relationship. Touch, just affectionate touch becomes problematic. And then definitely, the verbal and emotional connection becomes problematic. 
So the other area of intimacy that doesn't get talked about very much is just... I met with a couple just recently, and we were doing a communication exercise around their affection and their touching in their relationship. And after they got done, they were like, "This is kind of awkward." And I said, "I know." I said, "When's the last time you talked about touch and affection in your relationship?" And they kind of looked at each other, and they're like, "I don't think we ever have."
So they're a perfect example of we don't talk about touch, except for maybe anger conversations on "you're not affectionate", you know, in the angry conversations that come up. But talking honestly and openly about that part of intimacy is vital. [00:21:08] 
And then people don't talk about sensual touch. So this is everything but genital touch. All the difference. The caressing, the sensual parts of the body. And that doesn't get talked about. So honestly, one of the biggest things that I do in building intimacy is helping people communicate about the different levels of intimacy.
And then I spent quite a bit of time on building relational intimacy, how to connect and have fun together, because that is... I can't even measure how important that is. And I talk about body image because body image affects intimacy overall.
I do talk about how... I actually give people... well, this is a common technique that therapists would send couples home with saying, "Go have dates." I call them fun times. Date times are fun times. "Do have fun together."
So couples often don't even know where to start with having fun. [00:22:00] So all those areas, verbal, physical touch, and affection, having fun together, everything having to do with their body image, if they're connecting around all of those areas, it makes a huge difference on how their sexual intimacy goes. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. It is so multifaceted.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It is. 
Laura Dugger: And then even for the fun dates that you send them on, if a couple today is listening to this and they want to try it this week, what would you say to them? What should that look like?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: So there's a workbook that goes with his needs, her needs. And it's called the Five Steps to Romantic Love. In it is a worksheet on relationship companionship. It literally has a list of like four pages of all of these activities that couples can do. And a husband fills out one and the wife fills out the same thing. And they number it negative three to positive three. 
And I'll give couples these worksheets because often they don't even know where to start on what the different possibilities are. [00:23:07] And in these worksheets, it's got play test together and go boating and take a dance class and play cards and go see a movie and go out to dinner and walk on the beach. And it's got this list of a bunch of different activities. So couples put a number by each activity, and then they add them up and they see which ones add up to like a five or a six. And then they go, "Okay, let's try this one." 
And it's funny, because years ago, we actually... My husband and I facilitated marriage dynamics utilizing those two books. And we came up with the fact that both of us and we've never talked about it, liked the idea of taking... what do you call it? One of those dance classes where you learn waltzing and the salsa and all of that ballroom dancing class. 
And we were like, "Oh, well, then we should go into this." And we now since... now, it's been a while. But we've done it twice. And how much fun we had doing that. And honestly, sometimes it's exposing yourself to some of these other possibilities and going and trying them out and goofing around having fun trying it out together.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's amazing. And it just shows, for anybody listening today, no matter how long you've been married, you can always learn something new about one another.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: That's so true.
Laura Dugger: Yeah, it's excitement. Well, this next question has three parts. What phase of marriage do you hear clients say it's most difficult to connect physically? What are those roadblocks and how do you suggest overcoming them? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Okay, well definitely overall probably the biggest one I hear is what happened after they had kids. Actually, just yesterday I was with a couple and things were great and then the kid came in. That sounds so like the kids came. [00:25:00] But that is a reality, that when children come, Well, number one, physiologically there's challenges for the wife, often, and then the fatigue is so high, and the focus is all of a sudden not. 
And this couple literally said, "We go on walks. We go on dates. It was so fun. And then we had kids." So couples don't foster. The fostering of that part of their relationship dies off. So, of course, then not only are there physiological changes for the female, but then there's the time differences, the fatigue difference. So the childbearing years into the early raising of those children is one of the biggest ones that comes up. 
Then I would definitely say, big time, the second biggest one, because a lot of my clients are older, they're in their 50s, maybe 60s, their children are either about to or are leaving home, and they've all of a sudden, you know, start realizing that with the children leaving home they're recognizing that they don't have much connection. [00:26:08] 
So a good chunk of the couples that come in to see me, what'll happen is the wife is finally saying to the husband, "I haven't enjoyed sex for 20 years. And now the kids are gone, and I'm thinking, Wait a minute, what about me? And it's also I'm thinking about it in our sexual life as well."
So they haven't communicated about their sexuality since those childbearing years and here they are 20 years into it. And it's really at that level, honestly, the problems are sometimes quite complicated. I would say that would be almost half and half there. 
I do have couples as well that come in because the years where they're in more advanced aging, again, kind of similar into the 50s and 60s and into the 70s, where physiologically they're starting to have lots of challenges, or they're having a lot of issues with vaginal pain, or they're having a lot of issues with erectile functioning. [00:27:06] 
So yeah, I would say those three time periods: the childbearing years, the teenage years, and then the older years as couples age.
And in all honesty, it's kind of similar in all of those as far as what the roadblocks are, is there's just a lack of prioritizing that is majorly happening for all of those ages. They're not intentional in their overall intimate relationship as well as their sexual relationship.
Also, one of the big roadblocks is what's going on with physical health. So same in all three. Physically, things can be challenging for women during, and for men, but especially because childbirth can cause a change in hormones, it can create all kinds of different challenges in the genital areas for women. [00:28:00] They will often say they don't experience the same level of arousal when they are touched and stimulated. They don't feel the same level of orgasmic response.
And then I would definitely say the physical health comes up big time through the years, and then definitely as couples age. So I work with individuals who have chronic pain, they have back issues, they have diabetes, they have lupus, they've had breast cancer, and prostate cancer. So those physical health issues are major roadblocks. 
And then definitely, in all of that time period, when couples don't have a good ability to resolve conflict in their relationship, it becomes highly problematic. They'll tell me they got along with a retaining, they got along an early marriage, the conflict started to build and then children came and the conflict got pretty bad.
And then by the time they're in the teenage years, they're not connected any longer and the conflict is high. And then they come in to see me and they've had, you know, challenge with conflict for quite some time. [00:29:03] And they've had some things that have happened between them that are really painful. Either there's been betrayals or there's been the use of drugs and alcohol or any other kind of addiction or other kinds of huge areas of conflict, and it's unresolved. 
So there are major barriers to having great connection in the sexuality. I tell couples, first of all, they have to begin to take very specific steps towards building intimacy and they have to do it intentionally. However, a lot of the time you have to work on those unresolved issues. Sometimes even first before you even work on "Let's build our friendship back". 
Sometimes they want to build their friendship back, they want to get emotionally and verbally close. But if you don't work on resolving the issues, that's not going to work to do some of that practical stuff. 
So you do have to be intentional. [00:30:01] You do have to work on the unresolved issues. Sometimes people have to go and see, medical specialist. Often I'm sending people to sexual medicine specialists, because in my work with those who specialize in the medical issues that come up with sexuality, the pain and the physical problems they're having need to be specifically addressed by somebody who's more informed than, say, their gynecologist or their urologist. 
So going and getting help from a specialist. And really, honestly getting help with other relationships. Either seeing somebody professionally. When people are involved in churches, are they getting connected with other couples? Are they getting open with their relationship with others that are helping them? 
So one of the biggest things that I do in working with people is upping their entire support network, including, you know, really working through their relationship with me and the help that I can keep them. So yeah, a number of roadblocks and a number of things that I usually work with couples on how to overcome them. [00:31:02] 
Laura Dugger: I love that. That response just gives so much hope, no matter where you're at. It's not too late to start with this intentionality and get people to come alongside and support.
And for those who are newly married, maybe or they just had their first child, what would you advise to them for prioritizing one another above their children even in these young years when that can feel conflicting, especially to a mom? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Right. You know, it's vital. When you look at Song of Solomon, he talks about that: I have placed you as a seal over my heart. And couples will often lose the... you know, who's the seal for my heart? It's not actually my children. 
I'm a mother of four. I get the level of emotion, both in fears and joys, that parents feel with their children. [00:32:03] And it can be really easy to get lost in that and forget that actually, biblically, I am called to have that level of commitment and joy in and intentional focus prioritizing towards my spouse. And it does take, yes, intentional focus. And realizing that sometimes that means time. 
When I work with young couples that come in, one of the first things I check on pretty early on is do they talk together during the day? Do they talk together at night? Do they put their children down to sleep at a good hour, so that they can have a life after they go to bed? So honestly, sometimes I'm working with sleep schedules, which is kind of funny. 
And then I'll talk about, do you get away without your children? Do you have people in your life that can help you with kids? Do you swap with other families? Do you have a childcare swapping, you know, where you watch theirs, they watch yours and you go out on dates? [00:33:05] Do you have family in town? Often people will say, Oh, gosh, I do but we don't ever... So they have the connections, but they don't use them. 
And then I do talk about how do you get away for more than, you know, a day? Do you get away overnight? Often couples will say that their best sex actually occurs when they're on vacation. So sometimes they have to take little mini vacations, just the two of them with no children. And yet, that sometimes means you have to, again, pay attention to their support network and teaching them how to use it. 
So building purposeful intimacy both in the home. So this is are they talking? Are they doing small intimate gestures at home? And then I talk about their schedules. And are they prioritizing time together within the home after the children are down? Are they going on dates? [00:34:00] Are they getting away overnight? Because that relational building has a huge impact on how sex goes. 
And then the practicals are, do you teach your children not to walk in your room? Some couples put locks on doors. But you can also teach them that they can't come in the room unless they ask. So that you can have you know sex and not worry about your kid walking in.
I joke with parents when their kids get older that sometimes kids will hear things and... It happens, you know. Teenagers, young children walk in, they hear things and parents are so mortified and worried about that happening. But then they don't set themselves up for success to find ways to engage sexually and enjoy each other without having to be worried or paranoid about their kid hearing or walking in. 
So there are practical things and then there is the intentional focus of our marriages got to be more important even than our children. The best thing you can give your children is that you have a great marriage. [00:35:03] I tell parents the best way you can teach your kids about sex, because they're so worried about, you know, sexuality and their children, the best way you can teach your kids about sex is have a great sex life.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. I love that. So much joy in that response. And what are some common questions related to sex that you get, such as how often is normal?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: So I get that a lot. Either in anger, where people are like, you know, Oh, our friends are doing it this often and we do it this often. Or worry, like, are we normal? What is regular? What's typical? And it really does differ greatly. 
Sex can happen, for most couples, I would say, definitely monthly would be about the lower end of regular. But most couples that are in an active, satisfying sexual relationship are engaging weekly. [00:36:04] But I hate to put numbers on things because then if they're not engaging weekly, they're feeling like something's wrong with us. 
So what can happen with the idea of normal is that people can become demanding and upset and angry with one another. So idea of normal, I usually try to help them with that. That word might be problematic. And I help them figure out how often would they like to have sex.
Now, you often have a difference, male and female. You will have women that will say that they want sex more often than their husband does. Yes, there is a higher percentage of men who are saying they want sex more often than their wife. But normal can be hugely different and it can become a bit of a weapon that couples will use against each other. 
So I really help them figure out, how do you decide how often you want to have sex? [00:37:04] How do you even have that conversation? Because most of the time you're not talking about it. But then also when one of you wants to have sex and the other one doesn't, how do you manage that? That's pretty tricky sometimes. And that can create a lot of conflict. 
And I'm a sex therapist, but I actually teach people how to refuse. So, you know, how to refuse a sexual initiation is a big part of the work that I do. 
Laura Dugger: That's a great point. And so what is a practical takeaway for a refusal that would still be honoring and maybe set up a different time that work for both?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Literally, the language I use and coach my couples with is what I call a stop, continue. I actually do it around how to do the dishes in the laundry together, and then I do it around touch and then I do it around sexual and sensual touch. Then I apply it to the different levels of the relationship so that then they can learn how to say, "Do you want to stop? Or do you continue?"
And then if you want to say, stop, if someone comes and says, "I want to do this" and you want to say no, I coached them through saying, "Well, actually, I would rather..." So if you're going to say no, then you say what I'd rather do. That's literally the language I coach. "What I'd rather do is... so, well..."
So if a spouse comes and says, "Hey, do you wanna?" and their partner would say, "Well, what I'd rather do is... I'm really exhausted. So how about on Saturday we have some really great time together? And tonight, how about we give each other a foot rub, and then we cuddle and go to sleep?" Or "how about tonight we have a quickie, and we have a more extended time on Wednesday?" Or "You know, I'm not feeling well. How about we hold hands and go to sleep, and then..."
So some kind of I want to stay connected, I'm hearing what you want, I, though, also have some needs. [00:39:07] So you're being assertive with those needs, but then you're not slamming the door. You're saying, "Let's do this." And that's the "what I'd rather do" is, and let's do this at this time. Teaching that in coaching, that is vital, in my experience.
Laura Dugger: And that is so honoring the way that you put that and the language you give to it, that it's honoring to both spouses. Now, on the flip side, what if one spouse always is saying no? How would you coach them? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, often, it's almost the same. They haven't learned to be assertive with what they want, and so they feel like the only answer they have is no. So that's a problem. Also, this is especially true for women. If they haven't learned to prioritize their own enjoyment of sexuality, then, you know, the no is going to come out more. [00:40:07] 
So teaching sexual assertiveness is vital. Gosh, historically, you're talking thousands of years, let alone the last few decades. Women historically, the emphasis on female sexual enjoyment is low. So it's something that I work a bit with couples and with the women, and the men, on how to prioritize female sexual enjoyment. 
And also, when people are commonly saying no, sometimes, especially if they're spiritually involved, and they really want to honor each other the way God would want them to, or the way that the scriptures would encourage them to is sometimes people need to relearn their view of sexuality biblically. And so I'll give them different tools.
I actually have a book that I love. It's called Hot and Holy by Sam Laing. [00:41:00] And it's just a small little book that goes over Song of Solomon. And relearning the incredible view of sexuality that that whole book teaches. 
So sometimes there's a relearning that needs to happen to help sex be positive, and how people feel about it. Sometimes the no comes from, gosh, so many different things. It can come from negative background if people are having any issues with sexual abuse that they were dealing with. 
So you have to find out where the "no" is coming from, why they're saying it, and then help them to communicate it to their spouse in a way that doesn't feel like I'm being rejected. 
Now, sometimes people say no because they are challenged with being able to be giving. So I literally will explore that in the office on what would it be like to consider the other, and what is a way that you can still honor your needs and still think of the other as well? So that's a rather involved answer on what do you do when people generally say no. [00:42:05] 
And I think you gotta carefully deal with it because our culture says you can't say no. Our church culture says you can't say no, which is actually a real misunderstanding of Corinthians. 
Laura Dugger: And that's such a gentle answer in the way you respond. And then switching gears to a little bit more lighthearted topic, what are some tips you have for adding a little bit more pizzazz back into your intimate life as a married couple? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, one of the biggest things is get back to enjoying everything having to do with sensuality. Couples, often I joke, you hold hands and then you have intercourse. And there's not a lot in between. So one of the biggest things that I will tell people it's a really common technique in sex therapy is getting back to sensual touch and enjoying sensual touch. [00:43:01] So that's one of the biggest ones. 
But I do think there's all kinds of little things that are vital. Go read Song of Solomon together. Go buy some fun, sensual, or sexual games that you can play. Dice or a board game. Play strip poker. You know, the stuff you might have wanted to do when you were younger, maybe you never did do it. Now you can pull it into your marriage.
Play some kind of goofy card game and the reward is you get to tell your spouse what you want them to do. Go buy, you know, whipped cream and strawberries and spray it on yourself and say, you know, do something there. You know, have fun. Play games. 
You know, I talk about indulge your sensuality. Buy... for women but also for men, buy sensual clothing, things made of satin, lace, soft materials, sensual materials. [00:44:00] You know, if you want to tantalize each other, make phone calls, and say funny innuendos to each other, you know. Women can wear, you know, no underwear and flash their husbands if they're wearing a skirt as they're walking out the door. I mean, there's so many ways that you can tantalize each other. 
And then when you are engaging sexually, keep your eyes open. Watch what's happening between you. Couples are like, Yes, do it in front of a mirror. Watch what's happening. And then you've got pictures in your mind that you can fantasize about your spouse during the day and during the week. 
We often, especially with people that are religiously involved, the idea of fantasy seems negative. But Song of Solomon is full of fantasy. And we should be thinking about our spouse sexually. So intentionally thinking about it, intentionally teasing one another, upping sensuality. [00:45:00] 
And sensuality doesn't mean just in the bedroom. It can mean throughout the day. Do you enjoy a wonderful bite of chocolate? Do you walk on the beach? Do you take a bath? Do you need to buy new sheets and a new comforter? Or do you like candles when you are in your bedroom? Do you put on music? 
You know, sensuality overall makes a huge difference in how much couples enjoy in putting pizzazz back and how much they enjoy their sexual intimacy. 
Laura Dugger: Those are some great takeaways. It sounds like just bottom line, be playful, be playful, be playful.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, big time.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, thank you so much for all that you've shared. You've actually written an incredible book. Could you just tell us a little bit more about how listeners could connect with you? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. So you can go on my website, theartofintimatemarriage.com. And it's all one word, theartofintimatemarriage. You can find almost everything there. [00:46:02] 
There are the links to the book. I have two books. One is The Art of Marriage, and the other is Redeemed Sexuality. And both of those are available on Amazon. 
One of the biggest things that people find helpful is our cards. So we have five decks, they're sold as a set. They help couples with their communication around their overall intimacy and their sexual intimacy. They're called The Intimate Marriage cards. You can get those on Amazon as well. All those links are on our website. 
On the website is the podcast. I have done a radio show. I do podcasts. And all of that is on the website. You can go and listen to those. There's a blog on there. So there's definitely resources. 
So the model that I use for working with couples, just to let you know, it has received a couple national awards, the research that I've done on the model on how I take couples through sex therapy. It is also currently in publication in a peer-reviewed journal. [00:47:03] 
So, people who are more inclined towards research, you can actually read about the couples that I've taken through sex therapy. That's helpful because today we do have an emphasis on evidence-based practices. And so the practice that I use is my own model. And it is evidence-based, so that's helpful. 
And then definitely I love it when people send me their questions. So you can do that on the website. It actually has an area where you can send questions. You can also just send them to my email, which is jenniferkonzen@yahoo.com. Pretty easy. Myname@yahoo. So people send me questions, and I love to answer them. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. We will definitely link to all of this in the show notes so that you can spell her name correctly. Konzen with a K. Our final question today, Dr. Konzen, what is your savvy sauce as a wife? 
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Ah, well, I would definitely say talk a lot, be open, be vulnerable, be real. [00:48:05] Obviously that means be safe with each other in that vulnerability. But talk. Be open. Be real. 
Number one, do that first with God. Be open, talk, be real with God, and then with your husband. And that makes just a huge difference to the flavor in life, in your marriage.
Laura Dugger: Incredible. Well, I've been privileged to know you for quite a few years now and see you live this out with your Lord and Savior, with your husband, with your children, with your community. So I just want to say thank you for your labor of love to promote healthy sexuality and the way that you reclaim it for God's kingdom.
You are incredibly gifted. Your advice is practical. I love how your bubbly personality shines through. So thanks again for chatting with us today.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's been lovely. Thank you for having me. [00:49:00] 
Laura Dugger: Hey friends, we have purchased one of Dr. Jennifer Konzen's books that she authored with her husband Tim Konzen, and we would love for one of you to be the recipient of this giveaway. Just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "giveaway" tab for your chance to win one copy of their book titled The Art of Intimate Marriage. 
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:50:06] 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:51:04] We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:52:00]  
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

3 Being Intentional With Our Health, Finances, and Relationships With Business Leader, Writer, and Speaker, Elizabeth Dixon

3. Being intentional with our health, finances, and relationships with business leader, writer, and speaker, Elizabeth Dixon
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Proverbs 11:25 (NIV) “A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.” 
 
Elizabeth Dixon is currently the Manager of Hospitality Strategy at Corporate Chick-fil-A Inc. in Atlanta, Georgia. Elizabeth previously worked in the department of health and wellness and she is a gifted writer and speaker. She is a devoted wife to John and mother of two young children. She is savvy in countless ways, she is intentional, and she desires to help others excel at what they are doing!
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware:We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
Power of Moments
Made to Stick 
A More Beautiful Question
Mark of the Lion Series
Zack Williams Old Church Choir
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Prep Dish
Take Advantage of $25 off Premium Subscription here
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:19]
Laura Dugger: Hi friends, welcome to this week's chat with wife, mother, wellness expert, and business leader, Elizabeth Dixon. 
Today we will discuss finances, practical tips for making nutrition and fitness a priority, and personal development tips to stay motivated to continue growing and developing. You are going to love the energy Elizabeth brings today. I hope you enjoy the chat. 
Did you know Prep Dish meals were created to help you save time and put home-cooked meals on the table? No more mealtime stress! Developed by chef and dietitian, Allison, Prep Dish is a healthy, whole-food-based meal plan subscription service. 
Allison does all the planning for you, including the easy-to-follow shopping lists and prep-ahead instructions so that you know what to prepare and when. Just imagine all of your meals prepped and ready to go for the entire week. We like to call this Mealtime Bliss. Keep listening to find out more. [00:01:28] 
Elizabeth and I met over a decade ago when we were both living in Atlanta and she has always had the best reputation. She is savvy in countless ways, she's intentional, and she desires to help others excel at what they're doing. 
Currently, Elizabeth is the Manager of Hospitality Strategy at Corporate Chick-fil-A. Actually, today we're thrilled to be recording in Orlando as we are meeting with 6,000 of our friends at the annual Chick-fil-A conference. 
Welcome, Elizabeth. 
Elizabeth Dixon: Thank you. Honored to be here. 
Laura Dugger: Well, it's so wonderful to get a chat with you today. Let's just start. Can you give us a snapshot of your life? 
Elizabeth Dixon: Yes. Right now in our season of life, I'm married to my best friend and the love of my life, John. We met through Chick-fil-A, so we call that a Chick-fil-A-tionship. Then we have a precious little four-year-old boy and a little two-year-old girl that are just complete joy, full of energy, abundant questions and curiosity, which definitely inspires me in many ways to stay curious. [00:02:38] 
Laura Dugger: Well, we love your family. Something inspiring about Elizabeth, for all you listeners who don't know her yet, she is someone who aligns her values with her actions. 
Elizabeth, you have a full plate, yet you're managing your different roles well. Can you share how you're doing this? 
Elizabeth Dixon: Well, I'm honored to hear you say that. It's certainly something I aspire towards. Not every day is perfect, but I think that it's interesting to be in the season of life that I'm in. 
My dream was to be a wife and a mom. And then to find myself that the Lord had plans to put me in the corporate career world first and then bless me with meeting and marrying my husband and having babies, it's interesting because it's a life that I absolutely love, but I never anticipated it would look like this. [00:03:31] I never thought I'd have these plates spinning.
So I think it's a really important question to first assess what are those values and then ask, how are my choices aligning to those? It reminds me of a quote I saw on the wall three weeks ago. I was out in Waco visiting Magnolia Market, and we've gotten to do some work with them as they think about their customer experience.
And I saw this quote. It said, "It's not hard to make decisions when you know what your values are." Roy Disney. And I was really inspired by that. Like the man who created Disney World, thinking about how your decisions become easy when you know what your values are. 
Personally, the next day I was asked to go speak at an event, and I was very honored at that, but it didn't align. And it was really hard. And I think that's a reminder, certainly for myself, that it doesn't make the decision easy when you know what your values are, but it gives you peace. [00:04:36] 
That you know we have a certain amount of boundaries of nights away that I'll be away from the kids, and we try to limit that as much as possible, even if that means taking a round-trip flight in a day. I want to be home at bedtime to tuck my little ones in. 
So it doesn't always make, for me, the decision easy, but it makes me have peace that it's the right thing to do because I know what those values are. 
We've had to sit down and write those in different seasons. What are those boundaries? What are those key things that are important for our marriage, for our family, whatever elements that we're involved in, whether that's work or philanthropy, whatever? What are those boundaries? And then it allows us to be able to say yes and no.
I remember hearing, too, an author talk about how when you say yes to one thing, you're actually saying no to thousands of other things. Even though in that moment it feels like it's so painful to say no, you're actually then saying yes to your priorities. [00:05:44] So I think that can be a really interesting concept to think about that by saying no, you're saying yes to what matters. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. Really living your life on purpose. 
Elizabeth Dixon: Yeah, absolutely. Personally, I found a great way to assess, because I think we can drift, I can drift easily, because, oh, there's a great opportunity, I want to say yes, and okay, well, let's realign, rewrite our values. No, not the answer. So it's easy to drift.
But for us in our family, and I heard this years ago, but the best way to look at what your priorities are is to look at your checkbook and your calendar. The two elements in life that are fungible, you can spend them any way you want, but you can only spend them one time, is time and money. And so when you look at where you're spending those resources, it's really clarifying to go, really, what is priority in life? 
Laura Dugger: I love that. What are some examples of ways... let's start with your checkbook. Do you make sure that your checkbook is aligning with your values? [00:06:53] 
Elizabeth Dixon: Well, it was a very painful process in the first year of our marriage when he was called budget boy, my husband, insisted that we keep every receipt. I hated that because I've always been a saver, but I didn't want to keep a budget. I think deep down, I just didn't want to be held accountable to it. And so it was very painful that first year. 
But one practical thing for us is keeping a budget and saying, "This is where we ultimately want to be. This is what financial freedom is. This is what our dreams are. And so, therefore, this is our allotted amount to spend. And that's just important for our family." So I think budgeting. 
Then the other is a rule, per se, that I had growing up that I actually love now, did not at the time, which is the two-week rule. I realized later in life that this was not something anybody else had in their upbringings. [00:07:53]
Where the two-week rule came from was I was in a Toys R Us with my brother and my mom and I saw this puffy pink yellow and purple journal that I really wanted to buy and it had this little locket part where you would put the key on the front and I was enamored with it. 
Well, my birthday was two weeks away, and little did I know my brother had bought me this beautiful leather-bound journal with gold leaf paper and I insisted, though, on buying this purple, pink, and yellow puffy journal. Well, when my brother saw me buy that, he took the journal that he bought for me back, and I never got it. And I was devastated when I found that out. 
Well, somehow within that circumstance, my parents had instituted that we would have a two-week rule. That you could identify anything you wanted in a store, but you had to wait two weeks before you could come back and buy it. [00:08:49] Because inevitably you wouldn't want it anymore, similar to that pink puffy journal. 
So growing up, you know, you get older, you graduate college, and you go off to live life, and then you suddenly find yourself in a mall with your friends, and you identify a pair of shoes you like or whatever, and your friend says, "You should buy them," and when you look at them and say, "Well, I have to wait two weeks." And they look at you like you're crazy, and you look at them like, I mean, why wouldn't I wait two weeks? And then you have to explain that it's just become ingrained in you that the two-week rule is a part of living. 
But it's been really helpful, because it's true. Whether it's a lamp I want for the family room or a pair of shoes or something, if I don't love it in two weeks, I will have regretted buying it anyway. And you can only spend your money once. That's been a practical, helpful tool: budgeting and keeping the two-week rule alive. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. Great examples. [00:09:50] You also have a history of work in the field of health and wellness. Can you share some of your best practices with us? 
Elizabeth Dixon: Sure. So prior to being in marketing and leading hospitality strategy, I was fascinated by the human body. God has created such an incredible human body. I worked in wellness to create wellness programs for companies and specifically at Chick-fil-A. 
So through that process, it was critical that I lived it out myself. It's hard to teach something if you don't practice it. The challenge for me came after having kids. So I think before there was a little bit more discretionary time that was truly about the discipline of making it a priority. But then after having kids, it's like, wow, I've got to get up early.
That's what works for me now is I get up before the sun comes up and before my little babies are up and get my exercise in. And I think going by a motto of some is better than none and more is better than some, [00:11:01] so some days it might just be 15 minutes or it might be one mile or it might be 10 push-ups. But it's something moving towards that goal of being healthy physically and being the kind of mother that I want to be, having the energy for all the priorities that I have in life. I think having that "some is better than none and more is better than some."
The other thing I think is having a passionate "why". I think it's really easy to hit snooze and roll over and not do it. Or maybe someone's time to exercise or eat well is later. But I think having a compelling why is critical for me to make sure that I practically apply. 
Laura Dugger: That's a great point. What would you say your practical "why" is? 
Elizabeth Dixon: My practical "why" is that I want to have the energy for all of the priorities in my life. I think I notice at the end of the day, if I don't exercise and if I eat poorly... and by eating poorly, a practical tip that I've learned is just eating those small bits every three to four hours. 
My energy lasts so much longer if I just eat those little meals where you feel like you could go for a walk. You don't feel lethargic and you need to sit down, but you're just eating those small meals throughout the day. [00:12:24] I have that energy at the end of the day to play with my kids. 
I want to be able to look back and my kids say, "Whenever I said, 'do you want to play tag?' Mom always said yes." And it breaks my heart on those days when I'm just so tired and I say, "Why don't we do a puzzle or something?" So that's my personal "why".
Laura Dugger: Well, and if somebody wants to implement these ideas today, let's throw out just a sample menu for the day, what would some options be? Maybe they're stuck in a rut or they just need some ideas. What would you eat for that day? 
Elizabeth Dixon: For nutrition, I think eat the things that you really love and eat in moderation the items that are not natural, that God didn't necessarily create — they came from a factory somewhere. Try to limit those. 
A tip could be shop on the outside perimeter of the grocery store. [00:13:18] So from produce to lean meat, all of that. Eating lots of good fruits and vegetables is so helpful. I think for me, it's like when I'm trying to limit the treats and the sweets, don't necessarily cut them out. I found my personality at least is like if you tell me I can't have it, that's all I want. So maybe just replace it.
Recently I've been obsessed with Talenti ice cream, which is really expensive and really high calorie. And then I swapped it for an equally expensive option of the Halo Top ice cream. I went from having 600 calories at a sitting to 100 calories at a sitting, but it still tasted great. And so I find replacing and swapping those treats out is really helpful. 
Then snacks, 100 to 150 calories, typically, for a female that's active, obviously if you're training for a marathon or something like that, you would need more calories. But 100 to 150 calories for a snack with fiber and protein in it, because the fiber and protein helps you feel full longer and it prevents your blood sugar from dropping. [00:14:31] 
Laura Dugger: I love it. One more follow-up question with that. Let's say there's another listener in your season, a busy mom, kids at home, only has five minutes to get herself something for lunch. Do you have any recommendations for an easy, quick snack or a healthy go-to? 
Elizabeth Dixon: Yes. There's this awesome restaurant called Chick-fil-A. But seriously, getting kids meal of grilled nuggets and fresh fruit, that's an awesome option. Diet lemonade, or if you're an Arnold Palmer type, diet lemonade, and unsweet tea just adds a nice little bit of caffeine for the young moms out there, but a little bit of sweetness too. 
Some other kinds of on-the-go things. The little 100-calorie packs of almonds that they have. They make so many more snack-size options. So if that's nuts or an apple, different bars that you can keep with you in your purse that are delicious and help prevent that feeling of ravenous. Because a ravenous person is not a rational person, I have found. [00:15:39] 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. What if we play it out the other way? What are the dangers of us neglecting our own health because we think we're too busy?
Elizabeth Dixon: I mean, I play my life out 10 or 20 years from now... and there are plenty of things I can't control, right? There are different diseases or disasters, things like that that I can't control. But when I think about the things that are within my control, I want to have a relationship with my children and grandchildren where I'm active and playing with them. 
I think about my 91-year-old grandmother who gets on the floor and plays with my children, her great-grandchildren. I admire that so much. But she didn't just happen into that. She's up and walking every morning. She's physically active throughout the day. [00:16:34] She eats well, very nutrition-focused. 
So those things in life, they don't just happen. You don't just drift into success. You don't drift into health. You have to be intentional about it. I think if we don't do it, and we go with that mentality of putting the oxygen mask on the other person first, you can't give out of what you don't have. 
I think that it can be a trap that very generally speaking that I think females we can fall into and moms of young ones we can fall into where it's like, I'm going to put them first and I'll go second. But at some point when your well is dry, nobody wants that. 
So I think figuring out, spiritually being grounded and rooted and growing, physically having that energy that we need, emotionally being connected with friendships and healthy relationships in our marriage. Like all of it starts to come together. And I think when we neglect ourselves to the point that we can't pour into others, we're actually neglecting others. [00:17:50] 
It seems contradictory at the beginning that we would put ourselves first because we truly want to serve others. But if we don't, we can't serve others. So I think that's a powerful question that we have to play out in all of our minds of what happens if we don't. 
Laura Dugger: That's so counterintuitive, but what you said is so wise. You personally live this with not only intentionality, but also consistency. And when you put those two together, something incredible happens. So if somebody wants to start being consistent today, you mentioned some days it may look like only 10 pushups, but what other tips do you have for just getting started? 
Elizabeth Dixon: Pick something that you love. If it's physical health, it's exercise, or nutrition, like pick something that you love and make that good decision easy, right? Whether that's stocking your pantry and your fridge full of the healthy foods, whether that's putting... I always put my tennis shoes and my exercise clothes right by my bed because I don't want to have to talk myself out of it in the time it takes to open my drawers and find something to wear to work out. 
And P.S., if you have a cute outfit to work out in, it makes it just a little bit more fun and something to look forward to. I think making those good decisions where they're easy, and the easy decisions that we make, the good ones, I think that helps tremendously. [00:19:18] 
Just find those things we love. So if you love to dance, go find a Zumba class. And if you love to walk and listen to an awesome podcast like The Savvy Sauce, then do that for 30 minutes every day. 
If you love to ride a bike, go pump up the tires and dust off the seat on your bike and go do that. And ride it with your kids. Do stuff with your kids. Don't feel like it has to be separate time if that's not an option. I love teaching David how to ride his little tricycle and run beside him. You get some good sprinting in that way because those little toddlers can really ride fast. 
I think it's just find those things that you love, make that decision easy to say yes to. And then reward yourself. I'm a big fan of setting goals and then rewarding yourself for them. So maybe you say, for 30 days, I'm going to be active every day. Or five out of seven days for a month, I'm going to be active. And then decide what you're going to do to reward yourself. 
Maybe that means going and buying a new exercise shirt, or going out to dinner with your husband, or taking a bath with some fancy little bath bomb or something. [00:20:34] But pick something to reward yourself and celebrate the success. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. 
Hey, friends. I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that we're asking for ratings and reviews on whatever platform you use to listen to this podcast. If you would be willing, could you also hit subscribe to the podcast and share this with a friend? Thanks for listening. Now back to the show. 
Beyond physical health, you seem to have high standards for your own personal development. How do you stay motivated to keep learning and growing? 
Elizabeth Dixon: My dad set a really powerful example for myself and my brothers of being someone who's a continual learner, constantly curious and reading and learning. 
He's retired now, but he still reads like he was running his business. I mean, he's just one that's very inspirational in that way. And so that's been something, whether I've caught it or was taught it, or it's just a part of my DNA of something that I always want to be true in my life. [00:21:42] 
I think what's helpful is when we surround ourselves with other people that are curious and we read... The quote I've heard often is, you're the same person tomorrow as you are today, with the exception of the people you meet, the books you read, and the experiences that you have. 
So, stretching myself to read new and different books, even if they might oppose an opinion that I have, but challenging my thinking in that way. Or having conversations with people that think differently than me so that it helps me understand others better, have more empathy, and then having experiences that stretch me and challenge I think are really important in staying curious. Even listening to podcasts and things like that. Even if you don't have a lot of time again, some is better than none. 
Laura Dugger: Such a good principle. And speaking of books, any that you are currently reading or ones from the past that you would like to recommend to someone today?
Elizabeth Dixon: One that I'm reading that has to do with customer experience, similar to work-related is called The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath. [00:22:54] They wrote the book Made to Stick, which is a very awesome book too. 
But this one is talking about the moments that we have, whether it's in a customer experience, which would be more work-related for me, but it's very applicable to moments that we create in our family's lives. How can we be intentional to celebrate the big moments and walk through the challenging moments with those that we care about and love the most? It's a very fascinating book. 
Next on my list is Warren Berger's book, A More Beautiful Question. I've been really challenged in thinking about: how do I ask better questions? So I'm really excited to read that book as well. 
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Hey everybody! My closest friends know that I love preparing meals for my family ahead of time so that I can actually enjoy that crazy dinner hour with my littles and my husband, rather than try to prepare a home-cooked meal at one of the most stressful hours of the day. [00:23:58] And that's why I want to share this tip with you. 
Prep Dish was created to give you the tools for stress-free, healthy meals. It's a healthy, whole-food-based meal plan subscription service, and it includes easy-to-follow shopping lists and prep-ahead instructions so that you know what to prepare and when. You do a little bit of work on the weekend, and then your meals are prepped and ready to go for the entire week. Simply heat and serve. 
For a limited time, they've offered our listeners a special of $25 off their premium subscription service when you use the code SAVVY at checkout. Just go to prepdish.com/savvy. 
Laura Dugger: Why do you think questions are important? Why is that something you want to learn to do better? 
Elizabeth Dixon: I find that the questions that we ask set up and determine the quality of the conversations we will have or the experiences we create. [00:24:57] 
I'm going to host a group of different hospitality professionals from other industries in a few weeks and I've been thinking a lot about what are the questions that I'm going to pose for the discussion. Because I find when you ask a question of a group, whether that's a small group of women that you meet with or whether it's a corporate group, the questions we ask determine the quality of that conversation. 
We have a girls group. We meet every other week at night after our babies are tucked in. We roll out of our houses virtually in our pajamas and get together and pray and challenge each other in scripture and where we're learning and growing. And when we set our conversation up with questions, really intentional questions, then I think it determines the output of the conversation and where that goes. 
I'll give you an example. I saw this question the other day and I've been chewing on it. And it was, if the Lord answered all of your prayers today, would it change your life, or would it change the world? [00:26:04] And I was like, "Oh snap." Like, how much of my prayers have to do with Elizabeth and my family, and what directly impacts me? But how much do I truly want my prayers to be about the world and kingdom-minded and eternity-focused?
I think the power in questions is the intentionality within the question that we ask ourselves or others and determines the quality and the richness of the conversation and the output, which I think leads to different directions that we decide to take in life. So there's something rich in questions, and I want to continually be one that learns and grows in how to ask myself and others better questions. 
Laura Dugger: Wow. I could not agree more. I love how you articulated that. I didn't mean to interrupt. Were there any other books that you wanted to recommend that we could add to our show notes? 
Elizabeth Dixon: Oh, the other one I've been reading at nighttime, I like to read fiction because it just kind of helps me drift off to sleep and not think about all of the details of life. [00:27:14] I've been reading through Francine Rivers, her Mark of the Lion series. And I have been really challenged just thinking about the faith journey at that time in Rome and Ephesus and what it must have been like to have been so incredibly persecuted.
It's actually showed up and changed some decisions I've made in my day-to-day life and helped me be a little bit more bold, you know? Because I'm like, man, if she can go face lion in an arena, I can certainly talk about my faith in a pretty safe place. That's one that's been really refreshing for me. 
Laura Dugger: Can you give an example? You said you've already applied it to your life. Is there anything that comes to mind?
Elizabeth Dixon: It's kind of silly. But I was at an event, I was speaking at an event and they asked that I share a song for walk-up music. And I knew at this particular event that most of the music would be super cool and the greatest showman music or, you know, more fun pop kind of stuff. [00:28:21] 
But the song that I really love right now, we sing it driving into school each day is Zach Williams' Old Church Choir, which is a really fun upbeat song. Something in my heart just felt like, that's the song, that's your song. 
But I felt ashamed for a moment. Like, no, I mean, this is a pretty cool event, like, I need to come off as like, you know, cool. But it was like, no, that is a cool song, but it is a Christian song. But it just was a moment where I thought, No, that's my song and that represents me and no one's going to steal my joy, as the song says. So that's what we played. 
Laura Dugger: That's exciting that you read that fiction book that inspired you to action. That's great. And all of your intentionality in all these different areas also comes in handy with your current work. So, what are some of the most beneficial business leadership principles you've learned with your career at Chick-fil-A? [00:29:25] 
Elizabeth Dixon: You know, Laura, it is so rich the amount of leadership development and the role modeling that happens at Chick-fil-A. I think that's something that I love. 
I think about Truett, our founder, who has passed away, and I know we all miss him so much. My husband was his assistant for eight years, and so we actually lived next door to them for the first five years of our marriage. 
I think back to what an incredible leader he was and the legacy that he created and the richness that he has left behind of care. I think that he was an incredible example of someone that was a savvy businessman. He had great, incredible intuition, but he truly was a servant leader. 
There's a number of organizations that embody servant leadership well, and Chick-fil-A is one of them, and I pray it always remains to be true, of putting others first. 
I think in some ways that kind of contradicts what we talked about with making sure that you're being your very best. I think we do have to make sure that we can show up and have that baseline foundation of being our best physical activity and nutrition and spiritual growth and all of that. Like that's just table stakes to show up to the game. [00:30:53] 
But once you're there, I think it's having that mindset that we're here to serve. I think that that has been one of the most inspirational things for me to observe and experience and I aspire to live out is when you watch the CEO of the organization pick up your trash and take it to the trash can. There's a moment there where you go, Whoa, he doesn't have to do that, but he cares so much that it's not a show, it's just who he is. 
I'm trying to figure out a good way to wrap that up just in a principle. But that's been one of the most powerful leadership lessons that I've had, is that it's not about me. It's not about whether it's a speaking engagement, it's a meeting. Whatever it is, it's not about me. It's about that other person. [00:31:52] 
And when I get so wrapped up and consumed that it's about me, then I think that whatever it is I'm working on will never be and never fulfill the potential that it could have when that's my focus. But when my focus is on others or it's about the concept and putting that concept out into market and serving others and caring for them, then I feel like that's where God shows up and does remarkable things in all of our lives. Because it's about His glory and His credit and it's not about ourselves and our own little kingdoms. 
Laura Dugger: That's so well said. And as you bring up Truett, you walked alongside him for years. Any other favorite stories to share or any of his quotes that really resonate with you? 
Elizabeth Dixon: He often said, for Chick-fil-A, he would say, we're in the people business and we just happen to sell chicken. I love that because I think it's easy, whether it's our personal lives or businesses, to get our purpose off focus. [00:32:57] And he kept it on focus, that it's about the people. 
He'd often say, the three most important decisions that you make in life are three Ms: your master, your mate, and your mission. I love that. And he said in that order is critical. So who is your master? Who do you serve? 
His hope was always that you'd serve the Lord, as he did. And your mate, second most critical decision you make in life. And just trusting the Lord that if that's the path that he has for you, that he'll bring that person in the perfect time. And I know that was a story for me. 
Then your mission. What is it? What is your "why"? What is your purpose? Why do you wake up each day and go chase something? He always said that those are your three most important decisions that you make in life. 
And he was just funny. He was just such a funny, down-to-earth kind of guy some days. Because he came to work every day until he was 90, 91. Some days when he'd leave a little bit early, he'd say that he just worked really quick that day. [00:34:10] He would tell other staff, maybe someday you can work quick like me. But he was a really, really awesome, awesome man who left a really big legacy behind. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. He truly is a hero. Here at the podcast, we're called Savvy for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge, discernment, or understanding. And we want this podcast to increase our capacity to make good judgments. So we would all love to hear some of your practical applications from your own life so that any of the listeners can leave today with their own action item. 
So that leads us to our final question. Elizabeth, what is your savvy sauce? 
Elizabeth Dixon: I love this question. I'm going to answer your question with a question. A question that I have been asking myself in different seasons and giving myself permission to have different answers in different seasons is, how am I being the best version of myself? [00:35:14] How am I being the best version of who God created me to be and who He is calling me to be? 
With young kids right now, it feels like the seasons are really fast. Like, what has worked, a system that has worked for a little bit suddenly is disrupted and a new season is needed. Whether that's just based on how they're sleeping or whatever that might be. I find that those seasons shift quickly. And so how am I being the best version of myself? 
Typically, my answer there'll be one element of health that arises. So, my physical health. I'm not being the best version of myself physically. I'm not being the best version of myself spiritually, my marriage, as a mom, my career, financial.
I think everything has an ebb and a flow to it. And leaning into that to say, what is the best version of myself look like in this season? [00:36:11] And then just prayerfully leaning into what God has for me is what I've been aspiring toward and trying to do to make sure that I'm being a faithful steward of the life that I have. 
Laura Dugger: That's a great way to conclude today. Love that question. We can all ask ourselves. Elizabeth, you're such a strong woman in so many ways. I love your enthusiasm. And when I spend time with you, I experience double joy, I then leave feeling empowered to pursue my own continuous growth. So thank you for sharing your savvy tips with us today. 
Elizabeth Dixon: Well, thank you for doing this podcast. I'm honored to be a part of it. I feel double joy when I'm with you. 
Laura Dugger: Well, you have a great day. We'll talk soon. 
Elizabeth Dixon: Okay, bye, friend. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:37:11] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:38:23] 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:39:29] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law With Author, Annie Chapman

2. God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with author of The Mother-in-Law Dance Annie Chapman
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Proverbs 16:24(Berean Study Bible) “Pleasant words are a honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and health to the body.” 
 
Genesis 2:24 (NKJV) “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” 
 
Philippians 2:4 (NIV) “Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.” 
 
Annie Chapman is the author of “The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along?” In addition to being an author of many books,Annie is wife to Steve, mother to 2 adult children, and grandmother to 6. Her perspective as both a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law brings unique clarity to this discussion. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be fully aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? By Annie Chapman
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone! Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. Check them out at midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode. 
Today I get to interview Annie Chapman. She built her career with her husband as a singer and speaker. Additionally, Annie is an author. She is married to Steve, mother to two adult children, and grandmother to six. 
The book that we're going to focus on today is one that Annie has written, titled The Mother-in-Law Dance. Here's our chat. [00:01:21] 
Welcome, Annie. 
Annie Chapman: Well, hello, Laura. I'm glad to be with you today. 
Laura Dugger: It is such an honor to host you today. Can you start us off by telling us about your background and your reason for writing this book? 
Annie Chapman: Well, I've written a lot of books, but this was really a labor of love and fun because I am both a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law. I've been a mother-in-law for 18 years, a daughter-in-law going on 44 years, and have lots of friends that have mother-in-law, daughter-in-law issues. 
So I wanted to do something to address that and to be an encouragement because I think this relationship between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law is so important. For one reason, it's that prize in between. It's the man. 
I call the book The Mother-in-Law Dance, but the subtitle is probably more important than anything, because it asks the question, Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? I believe that the answer is yes, but not without a lot of work and a lot of humility and servant's heart on both sides. [00:02:34] 
Laura Dugger: Well, we would love to hear more about the foundation of this book. What is your theology on role models for the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship?
Annie Chapman: Well, there's actually two sections of scripture I found that really deal with the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship. One, of course, we're all familiar with, Naomi and Ruth and the beautiful relationship that they had that started off really rocky in that Naomi was a Jewish mother, probably, we believe, came from a wealthy family and had their two sons.
They were from Bethlehem, but they had moved to Moab because of a famine. And so they were able to escape the poverty that they were in and go to someplace that was more conducive to living. They had the money to go, so we believe that they were more on a wealthy side. 
Then you have poor Naomi's sons. She would have loved for them to have married good Jewish girls, I'm sure. But they chose their wives from Moab and ended up with Ruth being a part of her family. [00:03:44] And so it started out sad because, of course, the sons and the husband died. 
At that beautiful declaration of love, we even had at our wedding, and many people do, "Don't make me leave. Wherever you live, I'll live; wherever you die, I'll die and let nothing separate us." That beautiful declaration of love that was between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law who didn't have a whole lot in common. 
The mother-in-law actually, when she came back to Bethlehem, they called her Naomi and she said, "No, I want to change my name because I'm bitter of soul" because she had lost so much. 
So you think about Ruth trying to love maybe this prickly woman who had a lot of disappointments in her life and yet their love between them extended to the place where Ruth was included in the genealogy of Jesus the Christ. [00:04:43] 
The second one that I really didn't notice when I wrote the book was between Rebecca and the daughters-in-law, plural, of Esau. They were the Hittite women. And she said to her husband, "Isaac, if Jacob marries women like this, I don't want to live any longer." 
So you can see the extremes of the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship, even in the scriptures of one saying, "Wherever you die, I'm going to be buried," and the other one says, "I want to die if you stay in my life."
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I've never thought of it that way of those two. Thanks for highlighting it. Does this look different for mothers of sons and mothers of daughters? 
Annie Chapman: Oh, it's completely different. When I wrote the book, I did surveys all across the country and then I had my daughter actually compile the data off the surveys. My daughter's friends knew she was working on this project with me. [00:05:41] One of the girls said, "Why is it so much harder for my mom to let go of my brother than it is for her to let go of me?" Because she could see the conflict in the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law in their family. 
And my daughter asked me, and I said, "That is so simple. The mother never lets go of her daughter, but she has to let go of her son." It is the biblical mandate where it says, "A man shall," not should, not will, not maybe, "a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife and the two shall become one." 
And that marriage is such a mystery. It's even compared to Christ and the bride, Jesus, and His bride, the church. It's such a spiritual state that the scripture says he has to leave his mom and dad so he can become the husband to this woman and their marriage can be that picture of Christ and the bride. [00:06:46] 
There's an old poem: A daughter is a daughter all of her life. A son is a son until he takes a wife. As sad as that seems to me as a mother, as a daughter-in-law, I see that that is really important and imperative that that be the case. And God has arranged it such. 
Laura Dugger: I love how you relate everything back to what the Bible says. So, biblically speaking, who is called to lead this relationship between the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law? 
Annie Chapman: Well, I do call this a dance. And I call it the mother-in-law dance for a very good reason, because in a way, we are dance partners that did not choose each other. The mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law did not choose each other. They were chosen for each other. 
Even the very word mother-in-law means the law has declared that these two women are now mother and daughter. That sometimes is a really good fit. Sometimes it's an easy relationship. They just ease into it. It's all good. But sometimes it's rough as a cob. [00:08:00] 
In the analogy of dancing, you think, okay, two people are put out on a floor and they're told to dance. Sometimes you step on toes, sometimes it looks really awkward, sometimes it's not very pretty, but it's a dance nonetheless, and it's a very fragile, fragile dance. 
When I was doing the survey, I asked the question, tell me something that's been difficult for you as a daughter-in-law. Well, this woman just immediately came to her... she had her answer. She said, "30 years ago," now you imagine right on the tip of her tongue, "30 years ago at my wedding, I overheard my mother-in-law telling her sister that I looked fat in my wedding gown." Okay, there's 30 years of hurt feelings and grudge. 
Now, if this was two men that got offended 30 years ago, they take it out in the yard, they duke it out, they shake hands and it's over. [00:09:02] Women, they will carry that grudge to the grave." And she did. She was still hurt and angry after 30 years because her mother-in-law had said something very unkind. That's that dance that is so fragile. That in itself is another reason I wanted to write this book. 
I'll tell you the story that was the genesis of this book. Talking to a friend. We saw each other at the airport. We were both coming back from trips. I said, "What you been doing?" She said, "Well, we went out to see my son and his wife 1,500 miles, long ways away." They had moved into a new house, so they went out to see everybody. 
Been six months. They walked into the house, the house is still full of boxes, the bed was not made. The sheets were dirty. Her son was trying to change the bed. No food prepared. Her son was scavenging through the freezer trying to find a frozen pizza to feed his parents. No preparation. [00:10:06] 
Then the mother-in-law found out that the daughter-in-law was going to a function at church that was designed for mothers and daughters. She just thought, "Okay, now I'm gonna be invited to this function. I'm gonna get to know my daughter-in-law a little better. We're gonna have a fun evening."
The day came, no invitation. The daughter-in-law gets dressed, she leaves the mother-in-law standing there, never even invited her. The mother-in-law locks herself in the bedroom and starts crying all evening. The son is wringing his hands saying, "What's wrong with mom?" The mother-in-law comes out and says, "I will never ever come back here again."
She was relaying this story to me, and I thought, "Look at that. Who knows if ever this relationship will ever be repaired for a thoughtless..." That was rude of the daughter-in-law, but boy, did that mother-in-law take it to heart." [00:11:03] And I thought, "This is what people live with. The mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship is so fragile but so important, I wanted to help."
Laura Dugger: That's so sad to hear how relationships can be tainted over words. So biblically, who is called to lead this relationship? 
Annie Chapman: I have to say that the mother is the one to lead, and she leads by backing off. In the book, I wrote a section that to me kind of depicts what goes on actually on the wedding day. And if I may, I'll read this. "The candles are lit. The room glows with a soft yellow hue. The groom, the pastor, and the wedding party are in place at the altar. 
As all eyes eagerly watched the closed door at the chapel's entrance, suddenly the air is changed from the sweet stillness of anticipation to the first notes of the beautiful music chosen for the wedding processional. [00:12:02] 
As the doors swing open, the bride's heart races at the sound of the melodic cue to make the long-awaited slow walk down the aisle of matrimony. But as the song plays, the lovely bride does not realize that she is not the only lady in the room who has been cued by the music. Her mother-in-law-to-be is also called to respond to the melody. 
While the young woman in white moves gracefully with the music toward her chosen one, the song calls the mother of the groom to graciously step to the side. In reality, the wedding processional is not just for the bride. It is also a cue for a lifelong dance to begin for two special women in one man's life." 
I don't know if you can tell, but when I read that, every time I read that, I choke up because I was that mother who was required to step aside and let another woman take that prominent place in my son's life. [00:13:09] I was a good mother. I pulled his baby teeth. I taught him to drive. I took care of that kid. 
He grew to be a wonderful man. He chose a wife. And I am required, if I truly love my son, to step aside and let his wife take that place. And I do it. I do it gracefully, hopefully. I do it knowing that I'm pleasing God when I do it. But it is not easy nonetheless. 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to hear. What does that leading actually look like? Do you have any examples? 
Annie Chapman: Well, it looks like budding out of their lives and letting them make their own decisions. So many women in the survey... I asked the daughter-in-laws, you know, what did your mother-in-law do right and what did your mother-in-law do wrong? 
Many of the comments from the daughter-in-laws that said, "My mother-in-law did this right," had to do with "she let us make our own decisions. She didn't try to force us to go to the same church that the family had gone to for 75 years. She didn't require us to come every Sunday for lunch like everybody else had always done. She backed off and let us have the freedom to choose what we wanted to do with our time." [00:14:39] 
I just could feel the appreciation. And it wasn't that the daughter-in-laws didn't want to be a part of that family. I think they just wanted to have a choice. I have a friend who has this comment all the time when we're talking about things. She says, "It's not a decision. This is a discussion."
I think sometimes daughters-in-law feel like it's not a discussion when it comes to family events or different decisions that her family might want to make. If the mother-in-law is not backing off and if she's trying to dominate her son still like she did... you know, I have a phrase in the book that says, the qualities that make a mother an incredible or terrific mother to small children are the same characteristics that can make her a terrible mother to adult children. It's that tendency to want to always mother, to coddle, control, to do for their adult children. 
So to back off is to let them be adults. And even sometimes at the risk of thinking maybe they don't make the right decisions. But it's still, our place is to... we lead by getting out of the way and letting them have their family. [00:15:59] 
Laura Dugger: You also write about God's Word encouraging us to take specific action steps, both the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law. Could you give us some examples of those action items? 
Annie Chapman: Well, a daughter-in-law said that her mother-in-law was a real stinker. I mean, she was a budinsky. She was in their business and always injecting herself. The daughter-in-law did not want to cut off that relationship. She didn't want to damage it because ultimately she wanted to honor her husband's parents. And she wanted to do right by her husband by being respectful to his mother, but the mother was not making it easy.
So one thing she did that really turned the tide, she said, was on her husband's birthday, she sent her mother-in-law a bouquet of flowers. And with it, she wrote a note that said, "Because of your hard work, I am married to the most amazing, incredible, godly man. And I have you to thank for that. I appreciate all that you did for him through all of those years. And I wanted to acknowledge you on my husband's birthday." [00:17:20] 
That one act, she said, changed everything in the relationship. She said her mother-in-law began to back off and she realized what her mother-in-law wanted was to be acknowledged. She wanted for someone to say I did a good job. And when that daughter-in-law did that, then it made it easier for the mother to back away and to say, Okay, I can release him into this woman's care because not only does she love him, I think she respects and honors what I have done in my son's life. 
So little things like that. You know, the mother-in-law, of course, the best gift she can give is to allow that family, her son, and his wife, that freedom of not making them feel guilty because they don't come see you every Sunday afternoon. And just releasing him that way. 
But the daughter-in-law can make it easier for the mother if she will acknowledge her and show appreciation for her. I believe acknowledgment and appreciation is followed by affection. I believe our ultimate goal is to love each other and to feel affection for each other. [00:18:35] But that affection, in my estimation, does not come first. It comes as a result of acknowledging and appreciating each other. 
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible example. I think of my own mother-in-law. She's a very classy woman. Sometimes words or phrases that she's said are especially meaningful to me. I remember one simple one. She just said, "You know, you and my son, you're not just married, you're buddies." Related to this relationship, why are words so powerful? 
Annie Chapman: Well, words are powerful not just in this relationship, but in every relationship. One of the chapters in the Bible that I visit quite frequently, actually, is James chapter 3. It's a dire warning. It's a very, very serious warning about the power of our words. [00:19:32]  
Of course, we see in Proverbs, it says that life and death are in the hand of the tongue. Now, you don't think about the tongue having a hand, but it means the use of that tongue will either bring life or death. But James 3 talks about our words and it says, all of hell is set on fire by our words. And who doesn't know that you can burn down a relationship with the wrong words? With one word. But boy, if you're not being kind, you will tear that relationship down. 
Many of the examples I had with the women that I surveyed, there were some real regrets. One woman in particular said, "I forced my husband to confront his mother. I really pushed him because I wanted him to put her in her place." 
Well, she said, "My husband never does anything halfway. And he pushed her. Yeah, he pushed her out of our lives." [00:20:30] And when he was dying of cancer, he refused to let her come and see him. And she said, "I believe that was my doings. If I had not pushed him to tell her off, maybe we would have been able to work this out and had a relationship." So there was terrible regret about words that are said, and in the same way, those words that can tear down or they can build up. 
I've heard it said, it takes a hundred attaboys to undo one, you know, "you're stupid". So we've got to really make sure our words stay sweet, our words stay kind, and that we show compassion. But words, they tear down relationships with our children, they tear down relationships with our parents, with our friends, with our husband, but boy, can they take a toll on that mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship. Because coming back to it, it's so fragile. One wrong word and it's over. And that's why we have to be so careful. 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:21:42] 
Leman Property Management is today's sponsor. If you're looking for upscale living in the hottest spots in town, start your search with Leman Property Management today. They offer the most exciting options in the most desirable spots in central Illinois, and you can call that place home today. 
Are you interested in downtown Peoria? Check out their rentals at the fabulously renovated Marquette building next to the College of Medicine. Unique floor plans, restored original oak floors, and beautiful views of downtown Peoria await. 
What about Peoria Heights? 1221 Duryea offers immediate access to the fine dining and shopping of Prospect Avenue, with brand new accommodations that include 9-foot ceilings with huge windows overlooking Peoria Heights, electric car charging stations, and community party rooms. 
Is Morton where you want to be? The upscale Jefferson Building located along the downtown boutique shops and restaurants provides spacious living areas with stainless steel appliances and top-of-the-line countertops. So whether you're looking for Peoria, Morton, Pekin, or Washington, Leman Property Management has what you need. 
Check them out today. You can find them online at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook. Just search Leman Property Management Company.[00:23:02] 
Laura Dugger:  You also include in your book one of my favorite parts of scripture from Proverbs 16 related to this topic and it says, "Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." Then you also address a very important topic of boundaries. Why are boundaries important? 
Annie Chapman: Oh, wow. You know, fences make good neighbors. We all know that. Well, boundaries make good relationships, too. I mean, I've been on the stinging end of this. I hope you don't think I tell this stuff cavalierly because I've been on the end where I felt hurt that I've not been included or kind of told to back off. 
So I know the sting of all of that. But boundaries, I believe, are best established when there is no emotional component to it. You don't wait until someone has done something or said something in order to create those boundaries because then those boundaries are associated with hurt feelings. [00:24:10] 
I think things that are just common good manners can be the boundaries that will save a relationship. Like calling before you come over, knocking before you come in. Don't call in the evening when everything is so crazy. Like I said, discussions, not decisions. 
I have a story in the book that I think really illustrates this. The daughter-in-law said that some of this was the fault of her fault and her husband's, because when they got married, they didn't move away, they moved next door. 
She said in her mother-in-law's mind, her son wasn't really married. He didn't sleep in the next bedroom, he just slept in the next house. So she didn't see any need to have any kind of boundaries. It was like nothing had changed. 
So she had the terrible habit of just barging in. She never knocked. She never called before she came over. She just arrived. And she said, one day the mother-in-law had something she thought was so urgent to tell her daughter-in-law that she just came into the house and she opened the bedroom door and there was her daughter-in-law standing stark naked. 
She said she didn't even try to cover up herself. She didn't grab something and put it in front of her. She stood there naked. And her mother-in-law just told her what she needed to say and turned around and left. And the daughter-in-law said, "She never did that again." [00:25:37] 
I thought that's a good lesson. You can't do that. You have to have boundaries. You wouldn't want your best friend just to walk in and take over. There's just common decency. So some boundaries they just need to be established, like when do you call? Do you call in the evening? Well, that needs to be something that is agreed on by both parties.
Now, people who live out of town, maybe on a Sunday, they want to make their call, as long as that's established and that's agreeable to both parties, that's fine. But you just have to use manners. You have to think ahead. Those boundaries of what you do are important. 
Let me add one more boundary. This happened with me. Our son started out in a business that it was hard to get in. It was hard to make a living. And he really struggled. He's tried. There were times I didn't know if they were living on credit cards. I didn't know if he had money for rent. 
I was praying for him one day and I said, "Lord, you know, this is just bugging me to death. I don't want to worry about them. I'd like to just give them some money and know that their rent's paid and they've got some money set aside and I won't have to think about it." [00:27:00] You know, that was just me and the Lord just having this conversation about what I wanted to do for my son so that I would feel good about it. 
And as I was saying that to the Lord, my mind went back to a scene in my childhood. I was raised on a dairy farm. One day as a kid, I went up into the hayloft and I found a nest of eggs. We always used our eggs but the old hen had hidden this nest and the chicks were just beginning to hatch as I found this nest. 
I saw their little beaks picking through and they were trying to get out of the shell. As a child I felt sorry for the chicks because it was so hard to free themselves from the shell. So I thought, I'm going to help those little chickens. So I began to peel the shell away so it wouldn't be so hard on them. 
I helped several of the little chicks get rid of that shell. And to my horror, I saw each chick that I had helped free themselves from the shell began to die. What I didn't realize, it was the struggle to free themselves from the shell that gave them the stamina to live. [00:28:16] In a real sense, my kindness had killed them. And I was just horrified as I watched them die. 
Well, when I'm praying there and saying, "Lord, I want to give him some money. I just want to help out and take the pressure off of them," my mind went back to those little chicks." And I thought, "Lord, that's what I'm doing to my son. I don't want him to struggle and so I'm trying to help. Please help me back off and let you be his source."
Because I felt the Lord whisper that sweetness in my heart that said, "Do you want them to learn to trust you or do you want them to learn to trust Me?" And I said, "Lord, I want them to trust you. And they won't unless I back off and let You show Yourself mighty in their lives."
And boy, that day was a lesson for me. And I've tried from that point on. It's not that I'm opposed to helping, but I want to know that God wants me to help, not because I don't want to have to think about it or feel sorry for him. [00:29:24] 
Laura Dugger: My goodness, Annie, that story is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. How do we establish healthy boundaries and expectations early on? 
Annie Chapman: Well, we have to play it by ear. You know, this is a hard, hard job. The daughter-in-law is learning to be a wife and eventually a mother. That's a hard job. The mother is learning to un-mother and to back off and turn off the mommy faucet. And that is very difficult. 
So what do you do? You take each situation at a time, each day at a time. But if our heart is in the right place, I think we're willing to give each other some grace. Now, there are mothers that they're going to be the main woman in that boy's life, and he doesn't care if it destroys his marriage. I know there are people like that. 
But I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt that as mothers and as wives, we want the best for our family. [00:30:29] And so backing off, loving as best we can, praying for each other, but watching the signs. I think people know when they've crossed the boundary. I think they know it. 
And if they're willing to admit that. It'll all work out. You just take each day at a time. And if my goal is for my son and his wife to have a wonderful marriage, and if their goal is for me to feel loved and appreciated, we're going to get along okay. 
Laura Dugger: Well, it's inevitable that both sides are going to make mistakes. So how do you recommend that we repair the damage? 
Annie Chapman: With some humility. That goes a long way. With an apology. You know, if words can do damage, words can also heal. Sometimes people are not ready to let go of that. That's to their detriment. I think kind words, maybe small gifts. You know, like the woman sending flowers, that went a long ways to say, "You know, if there's been a breach in the past, I'd like for that to be over." [00:31:38] 
But I think when people are serious about having a good life and enjoying their families they're willing to humble themselves. I have a dear friend who not only has a hard time with her daughter-in-law, she also has a hard time with her daughter-in-law's mother.
And many times my friend will say to me, "Okay, I'm gonna..." Usually it's a conflict about holidays and who gets what day and all that kind of stuff. And she said, "Okay, I'm gonna call her and I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna say that. And I'm not gonna stand for this and that again." 
I just sat there and then my response to her every time is, "Don't do it. You're gonna get something started you can't finish." And then she comes back with this: "But it's not fair. It's not fair that I have to be the one that gives in every time." 
That goes back to that humility thing of regarding others' needs as more important than your own, Philippians 2. [00:32:39] That's a passage that we probably don't really like to memorize because it requires a lot of us. She says, "It's not fair that I have to be the one that gives in." And I said, "You know what? You signed up for this."
When we became followers of Christ, we signed up to be second milers. And if you remember in Matthew 5, the passage where Jesus is talking and He says, "If someone makes you go a mile, go with them two miles." 
Now, when we read that, that doesn't mean a whole lot, but that meant an awful lot to the Jewish people because there was a law under Roman rule that a Roman soldier or even a Roman citizen could require a Jewish man or Jewish boy, no matter what he was doing, to carry his load a mile. 
So say you're walking down, there's a Jewish man and a Roman soldier and they're coming down a highway and they meet. That Roman soldier could demand of that Jewish man or boy to carry his backpack or his load, which took him the opposite direction of where he wanted to go, to go one mile. [00:33:49] 
And it was said that a father would take his Jewish son out and they would walk off a mile every day so they would know to the foot how far a mile is. Because by Roman law, if they didn't do it, they could be killed. And so it was the law of the land. But Jesus said, if someone makes you go a mile, go two miles. Well, can you imagine how infuriating that was to that Jewish congregation? 
What Jesus was saying to them and what He says to us today, we are called to be second milers because the first mile is required, the second mile is rewarded. The first mile is the law. The second mile is love. The first mile is the burden. The second mile is the blessing. The first mile, you're the slave. The second mile, you're the master. 
So God has called us to be second milers. And so when it comes time to giving in and to showing deference to other people, it's what we signed up for when we signed up to be a follower of Christ. And so I remind my friend of that every time, and she just stomps her foot because she hates that so bad. But it's true. [00:35:05] You can't demand your own way and call yourself a follower of Christ. 
Laura Dugger: There is such wisdom in that perspective, and I think that's so good and challenging for each of us. I know for me it is. 
Annie Chapman: It's not easy. It's not easy. 
Laura Dugger: Now, on the other side, is there ever a wise time to distance yourself from your in-laws? 
Annie Chapman: Well, unfortunately, there is. In Romans 12, it says, "As much is up to you, live in peace with all people, with all men." And I believe that is the goal. I believe that's what I want. I want to think that there's not a person that I can't get along with, but that's not reality. 
I have people in my family, I have people in my life that you try and you try but they just don't want to get along. So when it comes to that kind of person that just has put up... they don't put up boundaries, they put up walls, and they don't want you to be allowed into their lives. [00:36:12] You can't do a whole lot about that.
There's times when you just have to step back and distance yourself. I had one example I remember in the book of a daughter-in-law who had a mother-in-law like that. She said that she knew her mother-in-law had had a really rough upbringing, a lot of loss, a lot of hurt in her life. Her first fiancé had died before they could get married and she had always felt like life had kind of shortchanged her. 
So she tried to get along with this woman who not only was mean to her, she was mean to her son. And she said, if she treats her son like that, what can I expect how she would treat me? She actually introduced the daughter-in-law to her friends as, "This is my fat daughter-in-law," which did not go over well. 
But what do you do with a person like that? Do you just cut yourself off and you say, we're not going to have anything to do with this person? Well, she didn't want to do that. And this is a second miler. This is a follower of Christ. She wanted to love this mother-in-law. And even though the mother-in-law wasn't loving and lovable, she still wanted her children to know this woman. [00:37:20] 
So she said she did some things to try to help cushion to keep their distance, but to not cut her off. One thing she did instead of going to the house, she said she would ask her to meet her, like, at McDonald's or Chick-fil-A, wherever there was a playground. She would have the mother-in-law meet her there, they would eat, and then the kids would see their mother-in-law, but they would run off and play on the playground. 
She said, this way, her mother-in-law didn't have to worry about her knick-knacks getting broken. She didn't have to worry about her sofa being soiled or the carpets being dirty, or if the kids played outside, didn't hurt her flowers. All this was so that the mother-in-law would still have a relationship. But she knew she could not just be cozy and cuddly to her. 
The second thing she said she did, not only did she keep her distance, but she tried to keep her words sweet. [00:38:16] Even when the mother was, you know, vinegar, she tried to be honey to the mother-in-law and had to stay nice even when the mother-in-law was insulting. And she tried to keep a sense of humor. She would send the mother-in-law little cartoons and little funny quips. And trying to keep this, there was a distance there, but she didn't want there to be that division between it. 
Well, what happened was the mother-in-law died suddenly. The mother-in-law went out to the mailbox and just dropped dead. So when they went into the house, they saw the house the way the mother-in-law had left it as she went to the mailbox. What they found was amazing. 
She said, "All over the house were post-it notes." Like at the mirror in the bathroom, it said, "Pray for...," and it was one of the family members. At the kitchen sink, "Pray for". Little post-it notes all over the house so that when she was in different places in her house, she prayed for her family members. [00:39:22] 
They had not a clue that this woman cared about them like that. They didn't have a clue that she prayed. They were so amazed that this woman had kind of a secret life. But it wasn't a bad secret life. It was a sweet secret life. She kept her sweetness a secret.
She said, at the funeral when she looked down at her mother-in-law, she thought of all the times she could have said something mean, but she didn't. She thought of all the times she could have ignored her and not gone to see her, but she didn't. And she was so grateful that she could face her mother-in-law's death without regrets. 
So, you know, there's people that's hard to love and you do love them from a distance, but it doesn't mean you don't love them. 
Laura Dugger: Your stories are so impactful. From your research, do you have any practical ways that a daughter-in-law can show her love and appreciation to her mother-in-law? 
Annie Chapman: Well, one thing I did, I worded a letter that I thought if a daughter-in-law is struggling to show her mother-in-law that she appreciates her, that maybe she could copy that letter that I put in the book, or maybe just get ideas of what she could say. [00:40:37] 
I think letters, it's kind of a lost art. We text each other, we email each other. But I wonder what is happening to our history, not only as a country but as a family when we lose the art of letter writing. So I put a letter in there for a daughter-in-law to actually write out and send to her mother. And I did the same for the mother-in-law to give her an idea of what she could send to her daughter-in-law. And it's affirming. 
I just think it's so important. We say words are important. You can't even compare how important it is to show that affirmation and that appreciation for one another. That's one idea that I think could really be positive.
Now, you got to be careful. Don't do any backhanded compliments. Don't say something but in your heart you're really trying to give her a dig. You know, like, Thanks for being so nice to me the last time I was there," when you know that she wasn't. [00:41:44] But just try to make sure your heart's pure in it and send that and see if there's a good response.
My mother-in-law sends me cards. My mother-in-law is 89 years old. When I talk about my mother-in-law, I just took care of her for 10 days. Any lesser woman would be in bed as an inlet. She's struggling and fighting to stay on her feet. But I fed her, I took care of her for 10 days. I just took her home yesterday. 
So I am reaping the results of 44 years of us learning to dance and learning to love each other. And the end result is she adores me and I adore her. We've had our moments and we both bit our tongue and didn't say things that we both wanted to say. 
She used to come to my house and she would rearrange my furniture and rearrange my kitchen. She just did. I'd come home and, you know, the plates were one place that I didn't intend. [00:42:50] One time she said, "Do you mind me rearranging your house and changing your kitchen while you're gone?" I said, "No, it doesn't bother me a bit because I put it exactly back where it was." And she goes, "Oh, okay." And we were both okay with it. 
But the end result of really working at trying to love each other can have some sweet results. And right now we are enjoying the fruit of 44 years of learning how to dance. 
Laura Dugger: That gives us such a great vision to aspire for. And now let's switch the roles. What are some practical ways that a mother-in-law can show her love and appreciation for her daughter-in-law? 
Annie Chapman: Well, I think it goes along the same way of acknowledging her, that she is doing a good job. I do this with my daughter-in-law. I think criticism is the poison of the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship. Sometimes as older women, as mothers, mothers-in-law, we've been around a while and we do think we know what to do, especially when these young people are having babies now. 
My children were belly babies. Well, if you put a baby on its belly now, I mean, it's a terrible thing. Well, mine all survived and they were belly babies. [00:44:11] One thing we can do as mothers-in-law, let them be themselves. I wanted to put a blanket over my grandbabies and no, there's no blankets going to be in that crib. Okay, there's no blankets in that crib. 
So I had to learn to be teachable as a mother-in-law. I think that's a gift as a mother-in-law we give our daughters-in-law is we don't criticize them, we don't correct them, we don't tell them how to do things. And if they tell us what to do, we say, Okay. 
Laura Dugger: That's really good words. I think it keeps going back to not those words of criticism, but words of love and life and encouragement. 
Annie Chapman: Criticism is a poison. If a mother-in-law wants to have a relationship with her son and with her grandkids and with her daughter-in-law, tone back the criticism. And if you can't say something nice, don't say anything. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. Well, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with insight or practical knowledge. [00:45:13] And as the final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Annie Chapman: Oh, I'm glad you asked that because this wisdom has put me in good stead many, many times. But the older I get, the less I know. But what I know I know for sure. And this is what I know, that God is good. He loves me, that He's in control, and that I can trust Him. That has stayed with me through long nights when I couldn't sleep. 
We had a bad report with one of our grandkids, our youngest grandson. We were so excited to be getting this baby and they did an ultrasound and it was a bad, bad result. We were told if he would be born, he would die. If he didn't die, he would be a vegetable. Just about the worst report you could get. [00:46:15] 
Through the nights, I would pray and I would grieve. But when I couldn't sleep, I said, "Lord, I don't know what's going on. I don't know how this is going to turn out. But I do know this. I know you're good. I know you love us. I know you're in control. And I know I can trust You. I know that. I don't know a lot, but I do know that ." 
And you know, God did a miracle for that baby and he is wonderful and healthy and fine and a walking miracle. And I told my son I said, "If you ever doubt God and you take a look at that child." And you be shamed for doubting God after what he's done for us with that baby. So that's my savvy sauce. 
Laura Dugger: Ah, praise God for a happy ending to that story. 
Annie Chapman: Yes, yes. [00:47:16] 
Laura Dugger: You are such a charming person, and I just appreciate you taking the time to not only write this helpful resource but also thank you for taking the time to teach it to us today. 
Annie Chapman: Well, you're more than welcome. When I re-read the book, I thought, "This is good." And it wasn't me being good. It was all the things the women that I had gleaned from had shared. I am so grateful to all those hundreds and hundreds of women who poured wisdom into me so that I could share it in the book. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you again. It's incredible, and we appreciate you being here today. 
Annie Chapman: Thank you. 
Laura Dugger: If you want a chance to win one of Annie's books, head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our giveaway tab to find information for how you can enter to win a copy of Annie's book titled, The Mother-in-Law Dance. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:48:27] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? [00:49:40] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:51:04]  
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

1 Finding Your Purpose as a Mom With Author and Podcaster, Courtney DeFeo

1. Finding Your Purpose as a Mom with Courtney DeFeo, Founder of Lil Light O’ Mine and Author of In This House We Will Giggle
 
 
**Transcription Below** 
 
2 Peter 1:5 (ESV) “For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge," 
 
Courtney DeFeo left her corporate career to work as a mom, homemaker, and business owner. She published a book In This House, We Will Giggle, among many other initiatives, such as speaking, podcasting, and running her business called “Lil Light O’ Mine”.  Courtney is now living in Dallas, TX with her husband Ron and their two wildly creative and sweet girls. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend products we believe it! And we want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
Courtney’s Website
 
ABC Scripture Cards
 
Virtue Memory Cards
 
Leading Girls Podcast (Now Called Treasured)
 
Light ‘em up acts of kindness
 
Jeannie Cunnion Mom Set Free Book
 
Jeannie Cunnion Mom Set Free Bible Study
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria 
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!  
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) 
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” 
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” 
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” 
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” 
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”  
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” 
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“  
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“ 
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”  
 
**Transcription** 
 
[00:00:00] Music
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone, today we get to chat with Courtney DeFeo. After Courtney left her corporate job, she worked as a homemaker, mom, and also started her own business called Little Light of Mine. Her mission is to empower moms and change little lives through innovation in the home. 
 
Courtney also is a speaker and an author. Her book is called In This House, We Will Giggle. Courtney now lives in Dallas, Texas with her husband, Ron, and their two girls. I hope you enjoy our chat.
 
Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Courtney.
 
Courtney DeFeo: Hello. I almost said "welcome". Welcome to you. Welcome to the conversation. 
 
Laura Dugger: Fantastic. For anybody who doesn't know you yet, can you give us a current snapshot of who you are and what you like to do?
 
Courtney DeFeo: Absolutely. Well, my name is Courtney DeFeo. You know, for most people, they don't know, unless you're a Spanish speaking person, DeFeo means "of ugly". I'd like to just throw that out there for anyone. I did not know until I married my husband. I mean, what a secret to be kept! So that's amazing. 
 
And raising two girls, and I have to tell them that. Imagine just saying, like, "No, you're beautiful, and your name means 'of ugly'." This is so random. But we have two girls. One is turning nine on Saturday, and the other is 11. It's Ella and Larson. 
 
We currently live in Texas, but I say currently because I just never know. My husband is a smarty pants, gets recruited all over.
 
[00:02:00] He's currently doing a job for American Airlines. But I kind of just hold on to my seat. 
 
We grew up in Georgia, loved that state, and then we moved to Florida for four years and did the Disney thing around the clock, which was awesome. Now we're in Texas. 
 
I'm most excited about being a mom. I think I'm better as a mom that I'm a wife. The wife thing is harder work for me. I just naturally think of my kids all day. That's embarrassing to admit, but I really do have to 'poor thing', my poor husband. I'm like, "Oh, yeah you. On, yes. Oh, I forgot you." 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, you've learned a lot on your motherhood journey and I would just love for you to share a few of those lessons with us.
 
Courtney DeFeo: It is not easy to be a mom in this age of Pinterest and Instagram. I know everybody that comes on your podcast will probably say that, but it's true. You know, there's never been another time where you can open your phone and see mother's killing it. You're like, "Whoa! She has five kids and she's a size zero and she runs like four ministries and she's happy about it and she's running on her way." So it's just a hard time. 
 
I would just say don't be so hard on yourself because I am my worst critic. I'm looking at a picture right now in front of me of me holding my sweet little cutie, Larson, who was maybe two at the time. I was so critical of everything that I did. Every move that went wrong with them, I blamed myself. [00:03:25] 
 
I would just probably go back and enjoy it a little bit more, hold them a little bit longer, definitely play with them longer, and definitely not feel the pressure to change the world and fix everything.
 
So you'll feel that tension in the conversation we're about to have is that God did some neat things in the past seven years through my ministry, but my heartbeat at the end of the day is that these two girls know that they're loved, they know God, and that I've had some really intentional time being with them because it flies.
 
Laura Dugger: Let's start with somebody who's listening, maybe they're a new mom, how would you recommend they find their purpose as a mom?
 
Courtney DeFeo: When you have little kids, you can get in this rut of like, Is this Groundhog's Day? So, every day, you're like, Oh my word, it's the same thing. And you have kind of big expectations before you have kids. I had a list of things I was never going to do. Like, I'm never going to wear that, or I'm never going to feed them that, or I'm always going to... You know, you just have a vision. 
 
And then when you get here, the reality of they need to be fed and changed, and you're just kind of managing chaos a lot of your day. That was hard for me to bump up kind of my ideals and dreams of what I wanted to accomplish with the reality of like, I need to make it to dinnertime. [00:04:41] 
 
So maybe a goal is like, I want them to be a leader in their class and I want them to change the world or be a pastor. And then you've got that reality of like, I just want them to stay out of jail. Your goals just change drastically when you actually have humans in your house. 
 
So I think to find purpose within that thing, one of the things I did was I kind of got angry about it. I was like, "I'm not going to wait." So you could just buckle down and say, "Okay, I'm going to survive for the next 15 years and then be intentional. Or you could say, "How do I figure out how to have a purpose and be intentional during the chaos? So it's not like after. Because if you waited till after, they [inaudible 00:05:22] or they would graduate. 
 
So during the chaos, that was kind of how the book and my ABC Scripture Cards came about. I'm like, how do I do this during the mess? So if you look at Deuteronomy 6:7, it talks about that we teach them and impress them as we go about life. It says, as you walk around the road, talk to them about faith.
 
That verse gave me such freedom to say, that's my purpose. As I put them to bed, because I have to do that every night, how can I sprinkle in talks about how much Jesus loves them or who they are made to be and how much I love them. [00:05:55] That's how this actually become a time that I say, "Hey, let me tell you a little bit about your body and how you can protect yourself." Or "do you have any questions?" Or "Is there anything you don't like?"
 
So as we go, we are just having conversations. And doesn't that feel more doable to you to say like, I already have to do these things a hundred times in a week? I can just be intentional about the things they already have to do. Does that help at all? 
 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. That's so freeing to not be adding one more thing to our to-do list, but really to maximize the opportunities in front of us already.
 
Courtney DeFeo: Yeah. I think it's going... especially if you've left a career, you can... and I left a big one. I was a Chick-fil-A person doing marketing. So things that you saw on your bags, decisions I made around the chain of Chick-fil-A, decisions I made, if I had a new promotion, it happened. If I had an idea about Cow Appreciation Day, everyone did it. If I had an idea about a billboard, it was on every billboard. 
 
So you go from that to being in a home where you're lonely and people are crying and fighting, and you're like, "Where's the promotion? Like, where's the glamor? No one's caring about my big ideas over here. [00:07:06] So it can be very deflating and you can feel very unheard and very unseen. 
 
So in that place, you're going, "God, remind me that this job matters and remind me that the decisions I'm making outside of the diapers do matter." And so it does. And so you have to continually battle that. 
 
I think that's why you see so many of us online if we're honest, it's like we're looking for affirmation. We're looking for someone to say, You matter. You're doing good. Keep up the great work. I think we have to be careful that we go, Are we looking for purpose in our starting our small businesses and affirmation and identity? Are we honestly looking to use our gifts to glorify God?
 
That is a thing I constantly wrestle with to go, "Lord, am I doing this for the right motive? Am I doing this because I really want to go after You and serve You or am I doing this because I'm feeling frustrated in my job as a mom?
 
Let me give you just two practical ways for purpose. Go back to your question. Okay? So in my little days, one of the things I saw was a really big opportunity that they needed me. I was like, I'm not just giving them lunch. My kids needed me to teach them how to play. 
 
And so when your kids are really little, do not underestimate that they literally don't know how to play. This will give you also relief to know at some point if you teach them how to play... and maybe some of you are rolling your eyes like, I hate to play. Well, I know. Some people are like, I hate to play Barbies. Yes, I know. [00:08:28] 
 
But if you teach them, at some point, they will play by themselves, imagine this, and you will walk away. There will be a time when your two kids will start playing together for hours and you won't even know what's happening. You're like, what is happening right now? I've been sitting here and they're playing and they're content. 
 
But it doesn't happen overnight and they don't have the skills right away to be able to do that. So one of the things I did is I created these little playboxes. We would get those plastic shoe boxes from Target and I would put in things. One of them was a hair salon. And I would just get stuff. They didn't want toy stuff, they wanted real stuff. 
 
I would get like a spray bottle, I would get like fake scissors, they're not real scissors, you know, foam rollers from the dollar store. I would get a comb. And they have held on to that play salon, I'm telling you, for like 10 years. And they played... They called it Hearts and Horses Salon. 
 
And it wasn't out all the time, but every now and then when they would get bored or I would get frustrated, I would go, "Girls, go get your Heart and Horses Salon." They have done people's hair for like 10 years. I mean, like grandparents, you know, when they come in, they're getting a hairdo. That helps their creativity. It creates their imagination to not pick up a screen to go like, I can create something. 
 
Another one was Play-Doh. I had a kindergarten teacher say, "I get so many kids that come in and they don't know what to do with Play-Doh." [00:09:46] Some of you are cringing because you hate the mess, but they need to know how to create something with nothing, to sit there for 10 minutes and do something alone with their imagination. 
 
That became a purpose. I have a role here. I have a job. I may not ever want to homeschool them, but for these couple hours, I can teach them how to play and share. You'll start noticing what they like to play together and you'll see these imaginations bloom and you'll see the leader... Always be the boss and the leader. And you'll see their little personalities come out. And you'll see them create worlds out of stuff. They need to be kids and to play. I took that role and that gave me purpose.
 
One of the things I will tell you, if you're not a player, find things that you loved to do when you were little or you didn't get to do so. One of the things I didn't get when I was little and I was kind of annoyed about it, is I wanted to dance for so long, and I didn't get to dance until I was like ninth grade. So I joined a company, I was ninth-grader.
 
I have always wanted to have been like a little girl dancer. So I kind of relived that for my kids. I put in a mini dance studio in their playroom. I put a hardwood floor down, I put a bar on the wall, and I bought a mound of tutus, and I put a bucket of dance shoes.  [00:10:55] 
 
Any kid that comes to our house, they love it. They will sit there forever because there's just like... what little girl doesn't dream of just playing dance? I think it's like I find that joy in yourself to go, What little worlds can I create if it's a science area or a... 
 
Like one year their whole Christmas gift was school teacher. I had so much fun going to the School Teacher Store and getting them. And again, not play stuff. They want real stuff. So I got them a real teacher's notebook and a real grading thing. I got some pencils with their names on it. And they have a real desk that I found on Craigslist, like an old school desk, like a metal one, and lockers. 
 
They have a whole school area where they play school. I could go on for days on that play, but it gets me fired up. So I have creative children now.
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, and you're so creative. I'm just sitting here beaming. 
 
Courtney DeFeo: The other one is Got gave me major purpose for my kids because I saw uniquely that, you know... and this is not rocket science, but hello, you were made to be their mom. And somewhere along the lines, I thought, "They respond very uniquely to me, to anyone else." [00:11:59] 
 
If I praise them, their hearts sit up straight. So I thought praise is another one that gave me purpose. And if they look in the mirror, they tear themselves apart. And if they go outside and they go into school, the world tears them apart. So I thought, my purpose has to also be... you know, and discipline for sure. Like that's a whole nother podcast. 
 
But our role is to teach them boundaries and discipline. But a big piece of our role is to build them up. And so I thought, how can I just... Again, you're like a student of your kid. You're watching them tick, you're seeing what they're good at, and you're pulling that out of them because they will start believing it.
 
Now, I told Ella for the last year that she was a leader... She's my oldest, and you could also say bossy, but she is a leader. I've taught her that over and over again. And about a month ago she goes, "Mom, I'm a leader." And I'm like, "You are. But I told her that and I prayed about it. 
 
I think it's just so cool this thing that your words are powerful. I would just encourage you guys today, like, you're not a babysitter. I know you feel like that some days, but you really aren't. You are a life-changing role model. And you have such power, such significant power. You're not sovereign, you're not Jesus, but you have such incredible power to change the lives of your kids. [00:13:20] 
 
My mom stayed at home with us, and I'm just... I walked away from incredible career with Chick-fil-A that I could cry about forever. But when I took my girls there last week, they went to Chick-fil-A headquarters, and I walked them around and they looked at me and said, "You left this?" I'm like, "Yeah, for you." Like two things I would have left this for and it's you two. I think they got the power of what I walked away from. There's just only a season you can be there for your kids. 
 
Laura Dugger: And I love it because it seems like one of your spiritual gifts is encouragement. Because you pour that out so lavishly on others, even through your resources, and it sounds like to your daughters. 
 
What a great practical idea to bring them back to a place that you used to work to show them what you chose as your trade-off to stay at home. But then you transitioned into a season where you also were starting to balance ministry and motherhood, and you did it in a way that honors God. So can you share how you did that? 
 
Courtney DeFeo: Yeah, absolutely. I will be as upfront as I can to tell you guys that this has not been easy. I get calls all the time, sit with moms all the time that are wanting to do this. I can talk to you both ways. So if you came to me and said, "I want to do this," I don't know if I could talk you out of it right now on this podcast. I could also talk you into it and say, "Go for it."
 
But the thing is, it is such a personal decision. So every mom I speak to, I say, it is personal and then it's seasonal. [00:14:50] Personal meaning God has to be leading this. If you think it's a fun idea to start a small business with small kids, think again. It is so time-consuming. 
 
Even if you think you've got the most simple idea, if you're like, "I just want to sell one t-shirt," well, the bank accounts, the e-commerce, the returns when you actually get real customers that are annoyed, it's like, wait, that sounded fun the first month, and then you have kids that are sick, like it's complicated.
 
So I could talk you out of it. But if God asks you to do it, just lean into that and remember that it could not be now. It could be seeding you an idea that's for ten years from now, and you're supposed to take one step and meet with one mentor. And so it's not an easy balance. 
 
But I will tell you, when they were home... We had two girls, back to back. They were like two and a baby. And I started where I had... you know, I could have been on Shark Tank. I always have ideas. So for me, uniquely, where it gave me the actual energy to go for it is when my passion and the ideas merged with a problem and a passion point that would impact my own family. 
 
So when I started seeing things then I was like, "I could use this for my kids. This is something I need for my kids," then I got motivated. And I thought with my experience with Chick-fil-A, I'm like, I know I could do this. I could totally do this. 
 
So then I took the next step and started seeking wise counsel and prayed about it. I didn't just haphazardly go for it. I prayed about it for like two years. So kind of held my gifts and my money and my talents with open hands and said, "Lord, if you used my talents to make people fall in love with chicken, what could you do with this to help people fall in love with Jesus? I'm willing, but I don't want my kids to fall behind the wayside." I kind of threw that out there. [00:16:35] 
 
Again, I'm in a unique position, and I want to be really clear about this because we are not in a position where I need to be an income driver. And that is a different position. So if some of you listening is like, "No, I need to have a side job, you certainly can still honor God, but your position is 'I need a side job'." And that is definitely different than what I've done. 
 
I've been able to, in some seasons, not blog and drop it for six months. And some seasons I travel and some seasons I don't, which is a super huge blessing. But also if you follow what I do, don't follow it as a recipe to have a booming business. You're like, "She's all over the place," I'm like, "I am because I'm able to have the luxury of making that decision. 
 
Because I think if you watch people and try to follow them and manufacture and duplicate, you got to be real careful because everybody's got... Like if you look at, you know, let's say Jess Connolly, she's an amazing writer, she's got a staff. It's awesome. She's got people. 
 
If you look at Living Well, Spending Less, she's amazing. But I met with her, and she's like, "I spend $4,000 a month on Facebook advertising." So she's got 300,000 Facebook followers and I'm comparing myself to her going, "What? I don't spend a dollar on Facebook advertising, nor do I..." And her husband stays at home. Just be careful as you're looking at other businesses and comparing yourself. 
 
So seasonal and personal, pray about it, and then take small steps. And also do your research because you don't want to get in over your head where you've made a significant investment of something you can't actually afford and it's not profitable. [00:18:21] 
 
There's some things that you're like, "I don't really care to make money, I just want to get this out there. But you can also get yourself in the hole of things that you thought were easy, but they're more expensive. 
 
You know, start small. If you think you're supposed to pour into twin girls, go start a Bible study. Don't watch a book. If you know you're supposed to write a Bible study, put it on a piece of paper and go share it with ten friends. 
 
Because of our culture right now, we have these big visions of what it's supposed to look like, and you just should start small. I started a little bit obnoxiously big. I was like, "Oh, I can have a product and put it all over the world." 
 
Laura Dugger: Let's get to your exact story, then. How old were your girls when you started doing anything ministry-related after you had held on to it for two years and prayed about it? 
 
Courtney DeFeo: They were two and four. I started a blog... I called it Little Light of Mine back then. But my big thought was, How do I shine my light and show my girls how to shine their light in a way that glorifies God? I wanted resources that were super practical for parents. 
 
I was seeing them in the church. I was going to North Point in Atlanta at the time and I was seeing them be super helpful on Sundays, but I didn't feel like I had tools during the week to do that. And so the first product I launched was ABC Scripture Cards. [00:19:37] I wanted scripture that I could put in my home, use at the moment, so when my girls were fighting, I would have something to use. I had a blog and I was writing and I thought, "Let me just share." 
 
Also at the time, I wanted real practical... just like we're talking right now. I'm like, 'I wanted not complaining. I didn't want all rosy and perfect. I wanted something down the middle lane that was like, I'll give you the truth. I'm going to give you hope, but I'm going to give you the truth." And so I started writing that way and always pointing people back to Jesus as the answer. I'll give you ideas because I love ideas, but I want you to seek God in this. That was my thought on the blog.
 
Then those ABC Scripture Cards, I had a feeling, because of my background, that they would take off, but in weeks I was selling a thousand, and then another thousand, and then another thousand. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this was supposed to be like a side hobby." 
 
So that was Christmas. By the spring, they were on The View. Elisabeth Hasselbeck bought them, and she put them on The View as her favorite things. Then by that next month, Lisa Terhurst bought them and put them on her site. [00:20:37] 
 
So within six months, they went from like a little side mom project to a massive distribution where I was totally overwhelmed and crying and I was packing like... It was like I had child labor. I'm like, "Ella, get the boxes. Larson, grab the box." And she was like two. And I'm like making them not go to bed till [inaudible 00:20:54] products. 
 
So then you have a decision to go, what do I want most? Do I care about scripture getting in the homes? For sure. Do I want this everywhere? Yes. Do I want to be a millionaire? No. I want to be at their field trips, and I want to pick them up from school. 
 
I made the decision right then... They manufacture them in China now with a reputable, amazing place, and they're able to get them into stores through Dallas Market and Atlanta Home Market, and they get them into stores all over the U.S. I just get a check in the mail now for a very small percentage. 
 
So people are like, "You must be loaded." I'm like, no, I've never taken a salary in seven years. Never. I don't buy a pair of shoes. I just reinvest it into projects that I'm working on for my ministry. [00:21:40] 
 
But I just feel like that's a decision where people, you just go, what's most important. And for me, that decision was, "I just needed this to get out there and I can't keep up with it." So that is one product in the story of many, but well, just to give you an example of how you got to decide what's most important.
 
Laura Dugger: Yes. And that you had to reevaluate at different points because you didn't know how it would launch. And then it took off which people might be saying, "That's amazing. That's what you want." And it put you in this unique place, right? 
 
Courtney DeFeo: I will say, just like I said before, if we were in a different financial position, we may have done it differently. But thankfully my husband was going, No, I've got us. You stay focused. You've always wanted to be with the girls. Do not change." But if we had been in a financial straining position, I may have made a different choice. 
 
So I don't want to put guilt on someone that wouldn't have made that choice. Just specifically for us, specifically what God was asking me to do, that's what we had to do. 
 
I think that's the thing is we can't judge each other and just go like, Lord, lead me to what's the best thing and lead me to... I had another product called My Little Money Jars that I had to stop selling because they weren't doing as well. They were more time-consuming. [00:22:50] 
 
And the cool thing was I stopped doing that and I kept praying about it and I ended up using those products, which I so believe in, which helps kids with finances. I ended up putting that as a chapter in my book later. So everything He brings you through He'll use again. And even if it's a failure, it's like, okay, well, that was a debacle. 
 
So, how can I still use what I believed was something from Him but just in a different format? And be generous with it. Like I was like, Okay, well that didn't sell. Now everybody was ripping it off anyways on Pinterest. So like I'm just now load up exactly how to rip me off. So I'm like, here's the three jars. Here's how you get the labels and just share. Because you can't hold things too tightly, especially when it's just for the good of kids and families growing. It's like you got to go back to your motive and say, what is it really for? 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A East Peoria. First, the best-kept secret is their chicken for breakfast. which is served Monday through Saturday, 6.30 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. 
 
My personal favorite are the chicken minis: four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
 
Second, did you know that Chick-fil-A caters? They will deliver and set up all of your food for your event, such as your business meeting or your birthday party. There are even a few menu items that you can only get through catering, including the waffle potato chips and chilled grilled subs. [00:24:25] 
 
Finally, did you know you can skip the line and earn your way toward free food in the process? Just download the free Chick-fil-A app so you can place your order and pay on your mobile device, then bypass the entire line as it's ready for you when you arrive at Chick-fil-A East Peoria. For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to cfaeastpeoria.com. 
 
Laura Dugger: This may be going on a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I was talking to my friend Rachel Allen this week — Hi, Rachel — and we were just saying, as the Lord brings these things to mind, and maybe you're starting a new ministry or a small business or something on the side that energizes you as a woman, as a mom, and it energizes your mothering, which do you see that cycle, which then in turn energizes your work? 
 
Something that we find crippling is a fear of, in 10 years, is there anything I'm going to regret that I'm not aware of now? Do you have any wisdom to share? 
 
Courtney DeFeo: Yes, having a third baby. I will tell you straight up. Okay, so if you look back, so they were two and four, I launched the scripture cards, I launched a book in 2014, we moved twice. So if you look at all that I really did feel like... I prayed. I felt like each project was brought to me. I felt like I was excited.
 
But it is hard to discern what is your excitement and what is opportunity brought to you from another person. I mean, God's not speaking out loud. So it is hard to discern the voice of God in times like that. Because you get kind of you're, like, the hot thing. You know what I mean? You're like, was that Him? Was that my agent? You know what I mean?
 
So you get in this pattern where your life is full and you can't figure out how to bring in another person. Ron and I would have conversations in passing like, should we have a third child? I'm like, "No, I don't know how we would do that. Because our second one was super reflux, colicky. I went into a really bad migraine cycle where I was sick as a dog. 
 
And if you looked at our landscape right then, you would say, I do not know how we would physically do it. With all that on the plate, it was like a no. Well, that became another year, and another no, and another no. [00:26:44] 
 
Well, fast forward right now, I'm like, Oh my gosh, we forgot to have a third child. And I'm mourning that now. I'm 41, I think. I don't know. 41. Ship has sailed there and they're asking. They're 9 and 11. I'm like dudes, it's too late We're like, there's no cribs here. We are traveling. It is like a four-man band and it is awesome. Like you get to the point where it's like, this is great. 
 
I think that's just one example of where you get in this motion and you're moving and you're busy and that you do get ten years past and you go, "Hold on. Should we have paused long enough and pulled up high enough that we go in the scheme of life, what matters? Could I create products later? Yes. Could I have children later? No. 
 
And you gotta pull way up and have hard conversations about what do you want your grandkids to know? What do you want your family to look like? I know people are cringing right now, but that's just gut-level honest. And I hope it helps one person to have another baby. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. That's so helpful just to have a real perspective. Let's transition a little bit to the family and home life that you're helping create. Clearly, you're great at vision-casting a home full of joy, and you're also able to break it down to a practical level. So can you share that vision with us? [00:28:09] 
 
Courtney DeFeo: Okay. I grew up in a Christian home. It was awesome. My parents were amazing. This is no fault of theirs. I always want to be clear on that. They did amazing stuff. But I think it may have been just the generation that we grew up in or the type of churches that we were around or I don't really know what it was. 
 
But somehow as a little girl and a teenager, I got the message that faith was rules and faith was bad stuff. I wanted to escape. So when I went to Auburn, I was like, "Pause on that because that's all rules and it's all the things I can't do." I wanted to go have fun. I just thought joy and fun and good stuff was not synonymous with the Christian faith. 
 
Then I discovered the complete opposite. When I got out of college and had my party years, I discovered Jesus again. I fell in love with Him. I was at a thing with Louie Giglio and just fell in love with the Lord again and I went on mission trips. And I felt Him use me and I was like, "Who left out this message? Like oh my gosh, it is so fulfilling to love God and it fills my soul to be serving."
 
I remember being in the streets of Ukraine on a mission trip, I was on staff at Chick-fil-A, and I was like, "Whatever this feeling is, being in the center of God's will, using your gifts and your talents and your time, I want to do this the rest of my life." And then when I became a parent, I'm like, "How do I get this message to them earlier?" [00:29:36] 
 
So a lot of what I do and write about is the idea that you can be fun and follow Jesus. You can laugh and follow Jesus. You can mess up and follow Jesus. The idea behind my book was if I got the chance to go propose a book at She Speaks conference with Proverbs 31, and they just said, If you ever were to write a book, what would it be about? And that idea came to me: In this house, we will giggle. 
 
And I thought, I could put 12 virtues in there by the month and show kids you can live a good life of biblical virtues, but how do you experience it in a fun way? I really wanted my kids to get this head knowledge of Jesus and bring it down into their heart in an experienced way. 
 
So we'll give some examples in a little bit but that was really kind of the vision for my home. It was like, how do I integrate their faith in a way that they're not memorizing it and marching along like little ducks, but they're actually getting the real experience that they go, "I like this."
 
Because most of our kids that grow up in a Christian faith will walk away from Him. And I just don't like that fact. I don't love it. I'm like, I'll do everything I can to change that statistic, not because I want to be a great mom and say my kids never walked away from Jesus but because I think it matters. I think it will save them from deep wounds in their life if they stay following Him for as long as possible. [00:30:59] 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh certainly. Your book was, first of all, incredible. I've read it cover to cover, loved it, underlined it all over. And it's a fun one that I'm gonna go back and read again and really focus different months on certain virtues. 
 
But something surprising to me was that I also grew up in a Christian home, didn't become a believer until after college. But I've grown up with some of these principles that my parents have taught me, but I was still learning so much myself. Even though it was a tool to use to teach your children, there was so much about the virtues that were new and fresh to me as well.
 
Courtney DeFeo: Wow. Listen, preach. I wrote the thing and learned myself. I think there was times where I was so frustrated and like, "Why am I doing this?" Like, "What do I have to know with two little girls? Why the heck am I writing a parenting book?"
 
Like I remember on the forgiveness chapter, I reread that chapter and it's like I don't even know who wrote that. So I asked the Lord, "You have to give me a fresh perspective because I don't know. I feel so inept, I feel like I have nothing to teach people, but I want so desperately this message to get out there." 
 
That one in particular, it was like a holy moment where God just gave me a fresh word. It's so fun to read because I'm like, that was the most fun typing because it was like He was just dumping stuff.
 
I told someone just before this call, a girl that's working on a book, and I said, "If you do it in obedience, you will learn more through just writing your own book about your own faith and your own journey that it's worth it." Like this is worth it for me to be able to learn what I learned about virtues and values and pass it on to my kids. [00:32:40] And if other people get it, Awesome. Am I a bestseller? Nope. But can I pass this on to my children? For sure. 
 
And we're still practicing. Like my girls are... if you come over today, we still have patience issues. We're still working on all of these. But I wanted it, just what you said was my goal, is that you would be able to pick it up in a busy season and go, wait, the responsibility is not really going so well over here. How can I refresh my heart on that? And how can I have a conversation starter and not feel like this is a mandate?
 
The only manual in your life should be the Bible. If this ever feels like a manual, then I've done my job wrong. It should be something that sparks a conversation or sparks an idea with your husband and he's like, "This won't actually work with our son, but I could see this working."
 
And it would kind of be this brainstorm between you guys to go, "We got to get creative about the way we communicate good things to our kids." Because if it looks and smells like a vegetable, they're going to run away. But if it looks and smells like a brownie and there's vegetables snuck in there, they're game. 
 
You just sneak it in there like it's an adventure, an experience, but it's like, Shh, don't tell them they're learning patience. It's like zip it. Just don't tell them and they'll have fun. They won't even know they were just on the adventure of a lifetime and they got Jesus all the way through it. Just don't tell them. [00:34:00] 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness, there is so much wisdom, so many things we could unpack in that. One thing that especially stands out, I love how you said when you're doing this in obedience. So if God has called one of these mamas to do something and it's a command that He is asking her, inviting her to obey, just like you did...
 
Now, I'm one of at least thousands of recipients of your obedience, the fruit of that. And then I get to teach my children. And so there is definitely a place and a need for these mamas to obey and step out. They don't know what will happen with it. So if it is from the Lord, I just want to encourage you today, move forward with that.
 
This is backing it up a little bit, but what were some of the real trade-offs or sacrifices that you did have to face while you were being obedient to take time to do this ministry? You had little kids at home. Can you share any stories of what that looked like? 
 
Courtney DeFeo: Well, I think the two that come to mind would be like, I found I sold the most when I would speak. So when you speak, even if it's one hour away or two hours, you're preparing, you're going. I didn't ever stop and go for an hour and now I...
 
I've never liked an experience with a speaker like that, that's like, I'm in and out. I'm like, I'm invested in your group. I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to hear your heart. I'm going to stand with you when you're crying. And all of a sudden I've been gone like eight hours and my husband's like, Uh, they just had a soccer game.
 
So there's expectations from the publisher that you sell a certain amount. I wanted them to be proud of me and I wanted them to feel like they invested in the right author that I would sell what they thought. They pay you in advance, upfront. 
 
So that's just an example of like when they asked me to write another one, my agent was like, "Let's do another one," my kids said, "No, I don't want that many babysitters. I don't want you to be gone that much." So I have paused on what the next thing is to write because I was like, "Lord, it has to be so clear it's from you that I'm willing to take some of those times away from my family. [00:36:07]
 
The other one is the personal doubt that you take yourself through. Because it's almost like you put yourself out there naked in front of people and go, Look at all I'm offering. And you feel like a big nerd. There's a lot of good stuff out there. And sometimes some people do really well and sometimes yours flops and there's a lot of doubt that you put yourself through.
 
So you can do a number on your identity and your confidence. So that's a constant thing you have to keep going through. So be ready for that attack. You got to share yourself up with your identity in the Lord and surround yourself with friends that can keep you on track to go, Nope, you were told to do this, keep going, keep going. 
 
Then have a friend bold enough to say, "You know what, you are doing too much. You need to stop. Lysa TerKeurst has become a good friend and she told me a year into the process that "you can walk away. You've done your due diligence, you've done all you can do for the publisher, you can step down." And I was like, Oh, thank God. 
 
Now it's been a joy. Like when you call, I'm like, I love to talk about it, but I don't feel the pressure to talk about it. [00:37:10] 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. I love that because it shows God is so personal, and He's going to either somehow find a way to communicate with us. There's endless ways. He's so creative. And with you, He used a person that laid something out clearly, like, Okay, that was a good season. Because I wish there was a formula, like get a babysitter this amount of hours, and you won't regret it later.
 
Courtney DeFeo: And I would say just like we're talking now, like if you find a friend that you can walk this with. Lisa's been a good friend to me, but Jeannie Cunyon is another one. She wrote the book, Mom Set Free in a Bible Study. So fantastic.
 
But her and I went to Auburn together and we have walked each other through. I tell you, we're like on opposite days. When she's having a good day, I'm crying. When I'm having a good day, she's crying. But she's in Boston, but we can still pick up the phone and she will say, "I just opened my report on the number of books and she's like, "I'm never opening one again." We know the same business. 
 
If you are launching a product, find another friend that knows that world because your friends that aren't, they don't get it. 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes. Friends, accountability partners, people to encourage you. That's such a great piece of practical advice. We won't have time to unpack all the virtues, but could you just give us a little teaser of virtues that you cover in your book? [00:38:26] 
 
Courtney DeFeo: Absolutely. My favorite one and the biggest inspiration behind the whole thing is generosity. I don't think that every family is wired the same way, but just the way I was raised, my mom was huge into generosity, just the way she lived her life, and so that trickled down into my life.
 
And that's one that when you look back on my time and my time on this earth, I hope someone will say, Yeah, the DeFeo family was known for being generous. We started a random acts of kindness program called Light Em Up, and you can go to lightemupacts.com. It's on my site as well. But that was just a simple way. 
 
I wanted my girls to start experiencing how fun it is to serve. So when they were little bitty, like two and four, three and five, we started putting signs on trash cans and saying, thank you for picking up our garbage. We started putting notes in the mailbox. And I thought, Just like we talked about in the very beginning of this episode, what can we do right now and every day while we're between naps and between yogurt spills and all that, what can we do with the people right around our house to tell people that we appreciate them and we see them and we're grateful for what they do. 
 
We would sneak over and write sidewalk chalk on the streets and stuff like that. And that became a movement that went around the world. That showed me the power of Pinterest. It's like just step forward and start and share it with someone else and they will be so grateful that you have an idea that works. And it's been so fun. It's been so fun to watch other people take their own ideas and make it work for their families. 
 
Laura Dugger: I am so grateful again for all that you've done. As we wind down today, I've got one more question for you. And it's because we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason, savvy means practical knowledge or discernment. So Courtney, what is your savvy sauce? [00:40:03] 
 
Courtney DeFeo: Okay, I would say friendships and relationships. We had a dinner the other night and we called it Board of Directors. I had eight other authors and speakers in the Dallas area and I invited them over and I said, "Ladies, we pour into people all the time. Do you want to come over for just a soul care night?"
 
Almost every single person cried their eyes out because we just said we needed to pause and just have a moment where we said, "What is going on? How are you? How does your soul feel in a time where you're constantly pouring out to other people?" And we just need that. We need a place where we can be safe. 
 
So I would say that's kind of my jam is to be honest and to get around people that are smarter than me and met when I'm messing up and met when I'm not okay and just love and be generous and open my house. 
 
There's a verse, a Message version of... it's right here on my wall. Matthew 5:14-16. It says, "Be generous with your life by opening up to others and you will prompt people to open up with God, this generous Father in heaven." I love to just start by opening up my life and then I get blessed in return. 
 
Laura Dugger: Courtney, you live that verse out so well. It has been such a joy and privilege to get to talk with you today and hear all of your ideas. And thank you just for being generous with your time and sharing with us today. 
 
Courtney DeFeo: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: At The Savvy Sauce, we love giveaways. So go on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our giveaways tab. There you can find the many different ways to enter for today's giveaway, which includes one set of Courtney's virtue cards, one copy of Courtney's book, In This House, We Will Giggle, and one set of Courtney's ABC Scripture Cards. 
 
Thanks for participating in this limited-time giveaway. [00:41:56] 
 
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. 
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:43:03] 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.  
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:44:46] 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

0 Backstory of The Savvy Sauce and Introduction to the Team

0. Introduction to The Savvy Sauce 
 
**Transcription Below** 
 
Revelation 12:11a (AMP) “And they overcame and conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony,"  
 
Laura Dugger loves Jesus, is married to her best friend, Mark, and is a joyful mom to (update: 4) beloved daughters. She acquired a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology from Illinois State University before receiving her Master’s Degree from Richmont Graduate University with a specialization in Christian sex therapy. As a licensed marriage and family therapist, she started her career seeing clients in a private practice in California, then taught as an adjunct professor in Indiana before creating The Savvy Sauce while living in central Illinois. She and Mark have moved 9 times in marriage and now Laura is excited to combine her love of people, curiosity, and learning through questions to start her dream job as host of The Savvy Sauce.  
 
Natalie Baker loves the Lord and is a wife, mom, nurse, and sound engineer for The Savvy Sauce podcast.  She grew up in a small town in the Midwest where she and her husband returned to raise their 3 children.  She has a Bachelor’s degree in the Science of Nursing and is a Certified Wound, Ostomy, and Continence Nurse with a background in Wound Care and Hyperbaric Oxygen Medicine.  These days, Natalie can most likely be found at home with her sweet and active 3-year old son, experimenting in the kitchen for her husband, or coordinating her 7- and 9-year old daughters’ Irish dance, swim, gymnastics, drama, rock climbing, and soccer schedules.  She is a lover of Jesus, coffee, and travel.  She is happiest when road-tripping with her husband and kids.  
 
Lauren Sauder has been married to her husband, Steven, for 10 years and keeps busy with 3 little kids-a son and two daughters. She graduated from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign with a double major in Education and Spanish and attended graduate school at Moody Bible Institute for Spiritual Formation. She and her husband were missionaries in Thailand for 6 years where they started a real estate company and a food truck. They have since moved back to Central Illinois and Lauren likes to call herself an "accidental farmer's wife". Being from a big city, small-town farm life has been an adjustment, but she loves the community and slower pace of life. When she's not having dance parties with her kids, you can find Lauren in the kitchen cooking or running the social media outlets for The Savvy Sauce.  
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram  
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast! 
 
Our Favorite Things…  
 
Life: Beautiful Magazine  
 
Fair & Simple Linen Origami Pouches  
 
Liv Thai Bracelet  
 
Samples of encouraging Scripture God revealed as we pursued launching The Savvy Sauce:  
 
Luke 7:47 (NIV) “Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”  
 
Luke 1:45 (NIV) “Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”  
 
Matthew 6:33 (KJV) “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”  
Proverbs 4:5 (AMP) “Get [skillful and godly] wisdom! Acquire understanding [actively seek spiritual discernment, mature comprehension, and logical interpretation]! Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.”  
 
James 1:22 (NIV) “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”  
 
Mark 12:29-31 (NIV) “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”  
 
Mission: We exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing  
 
Our prayer for The Savvy Sauce: Dear God, we ask that The Savvy Sauce will be a loving, safe, warm, welcoming, inclusive, encouraging, generous and fun environment, where we do hear Your Word and we understand how to apply it personally! We ask you, God, to use Your Holy Spirit to specifically and uniquely speak to everyone who listens. In Jesus Name, we pray, Amen!  
 
Laura's Values: Reminders for her to personally to stay on track…feel free to hold her accountable: 
 
1. Be inspired.
2. Share!
3. Sow generously
4. Don’t compare! 
 
We believe all Truth is God’s Truth. We don’t feel the responsibility to agree with 100% of each guest’s beliefs, but we do believe our guests have been given some piece of God-given wisdom and we want to do our part to share it with you! Some guests you may agree with more than others, but we encourage you to help us make this a safe, inviting, welcoming space where we can have these candid conversations and hopefully learn something new to apply to our life to make each day a little bit better and brighter! That’s the heart behind this podcast 😃 Thanks for joining us!  
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)  
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”  
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”  
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”  
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”  
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”  
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”  
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”  
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”  
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”  
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”  
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”  
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“  
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“  
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”  
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Hey friends! We're so glad that you're here, and we wanted to let our first episode be an introduction to our team, where we can also share the backstory behind The Savvy Sauce. If you prefer not to listen to all these background details, simply click over to Episode 1, where we have a fantastic guest waiting for you.
If you do choose to stick around, we're going to hear from our current team, our editor and my sister, Natalie Baker, our social media lead, Lauren Sauter, and me, your host, Laura Dugger. We'll then briefly share how The Savvy Sauce came to be, and near the end of this episode, we're going to let you know how to participate in our first Rafflecopter giveaway. 
Okay, so let's get started. Natalie, can you tell us more about yourself?
Natalie Baker: You bet. So, sis, you and I were raised in a Bible-believing, church-going family. We were surrounded by a wonderful community of believers. [00:01:19] When I graduated high school, I decided I wanted to become a nurse, and I chose a state university with a four-year nursing program.
I had heard from a bunch of family and friends that the program was really difficult once you got into your junior year. And I guess I kind of took that as a challenge to have as much fun the first two years as I could. 
So I started attending parties on a weekly basis. I really was just looking for ways to have the most fun. But there was this large group of students from our hometown and from our church, and they would get together every week for Bible study. And I noticed they had a support group, they seemed to be having a great time, a lot more so than I seemed to be having at the parties I was going to, and they had a purpose to what they were doing. 
The more I sort of evaluated the Christian life, the more I decided I was crazy not to want it, but I still had no idea what it meant to live as a Christian. I gave my life to Christ one night after talking and praying with our brother and some friends. [00:02:21] And I will never forget the feeling of peace that washed over me as I was beginning to just understand what it meant to live for Him. 
Growing up, we had memorized scripture, we had read the Bible, we had gone to Sunday school, and I felt like I had a pretty good knowledge of what was in the Bible, but I had never experienced the joy and intimacy of really knowing the God of the Bible. And I was so humbled at how much He cares for us, each individually.
Not long after becoming a Christian, I formed a small, close group of friends, including my amazing husband, Luke. And I wouldn't say it was necessarily love at first sight, because we are two strong personalities who often disagreed, but I had so much respect for him. He's extremely intellectual, and I enjoyed being challenged when I was around him.
By the time I graduated the nursing program, God was working in each of our hearts to bring us together, and we will celebrate our 15-year anniversary this December. We have three sweet children, two daughters and one son, ages 9, 7, and 3, who keep us busy with all sorts of fun activities, and never cease to amaze us with their curiosity and endless energy. [00:03:26] 
We love to travel every chance we can get, and we're trying to preserve that sense of wonder that our kids have about the world around them. My greatest joy and challenge is to be a good wife and mom to the wonderful family God has entrusted to me.
Laura Dugger: We couldn't be more thrilled to have you here, so thank you for sharing your story. Lauren, you're up. Will you share a snapshot of your story? 
Lauren Sauter: Okay, so I grew up in a Christian home as well. When I was in third grade, my mom had a near-death experience. We were at my brother's Little League baseball game, and she had a cardiac arrest. She was clinically pronounced dead for more than 10 minutes. It was a very traumatic experience as a nine-year-old, but by a complete miracle, she survived and ended up making a full recovery.
As I look back, I can realize and see that it marked my life as a 9-year-old and kind of put me on a path of believing in Jesus. I remember her coming home from the hospital, sitting me down, and telling me that she had gone to heaven. [00:04:27] She explained in full detail, telling me how beautiful it was, how at peace she was. She talked about this warm, embracing light she felt, the people she saw, and how she didn't want to leave. 
That was something that was striking to me as a little girl, very attached to her mom. The fact that, you know, my mom had three young kids, a 9, 11, and 13-year-old, and how she had gone to heaven and didn't want to leave. So that kind of really struck me. 
She had told me that she had this conversation with her grandma while she was there, and her grandma had told her that she had to go back, and my mom said that she didn't want to. She wanted to stay in heaven forever. But her grandma had said, "You can come back, but now's not your time. Go take care of your husband and your kids." And so that was when she woke up in the hospital. 
So from a pretty young age, I felt like I understood, as much as I could, and grasped that heaven was a very real place and that faith in Jesus was the way to heaven. [00:05:30] So that kind of put me on this path of following Jesus. 
And I would say, though I had ups and downs throughout the course of my teen years, I still had a really strong faith in Jesus. I ended up going to college at the University of Illinois, so fast forward through a lot of years, but somehow, by the time I had graduated college, I had fallen in love with a farmer and wanted to be a missionary.
So, if you would have known me growing up, you would know how funny that was. I grew up in a swanky suburb outside of Chicago and honestly didn't even know that farmers still existed. So it was a very different plan than the one I had growing up. But like most things, God's plan is always better. 
I married my husband, Steven, a couple years after we graduated, and we headed off to Thailand as missionaries. My husband is an entrepreneur at heart, and so we went there to do a thing called Business as Mission, which is just essentially starting a business to help impact the community, your customers, and your employees. [00:06:39] We thought it was a great way that we could use our gifts while also allowing just a lot of opportunities for us to bless those in Thailand. 
And so, yeah, I think it would be impossible to sum up our time in Thailand in a couple of minutes, so I'll just say that it was really hard, but God was faithful even when we weren't. We were in Thailand for six years, and now we have been in central Illinois for about two years. We have three kids, and my husband is farming, and so now I'm learning how to be a farmer's wife.
My vision for The Savvy Sauce and social media, if I could sum it up in one sentence, I would say I want to use social media for good. I just want it to be a space that allows people to connect. We want to hear from you guys. We want to hear your stories and see how listeners are applying what they're learning from the podcast into their everyday life. [00:07:39] 
We also just want it to be a place for pictures of giveaway winners, feel like you're a part of a greater community, share your best practices of what you're learning, and any upcoming Savvy Sauce announcements. 
Laura Dugger: That's so awesome. We're very grateful to have you leading that charge. 
Lauren Sauter: Okay, Laura, it's your turn. We obviously want to hear all about the host, so share your story with us. 
Laura Dugger: Okay. I grew up the youngest of three siblings in a tiny town of 2,000, which I loved. My family all actually became believers before I did, and they totally did their part to set me up for success, which is one reason I cringe when I think of the poor decisions I made in college before I was a Christ follower. 
But there is some encouraging scripture that God revealed to me later, and it's from Luke 7:47. It says, "Therefore I tell you, Her many sins have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who has been forgiven little loves little." [00:08:39] 
So growing up in a family with a long line of believers behind us, I knew that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and was raised to life after three days. I knew God was real, and I even talked to Him during prayer, but I had never fully surrendered my life to Him. So one day I realized that Satan also knows God, and he's talked with Him before, and Satan even knows all about the cross, but he does not get to spend eternity in heaven. And that realization rattled me. 
It then led to a few defining moments in college. First, I told God that I knew the difference between right and wrong, but I simply didn't care, and that was starting to scare me. So I asked Him to give me my conscience back, which He did when my dad invited me to be a part of a Bible study one summer. That's when I started reading the Bible, and I noticed that my heart became softer to genuinely caring about right and wrong.
A few months later, my mom invited me to a church event where a young marriage and family therapist was speaking, because mom knew that that's what I wanted to study in graduate school. [00:09:46] I loved what the speaker had to share, and after the event, I went up and asked her where she went to graduate school. She told me about Richmond Graduate University in Atlanta, Georgia, which just happened to be a Christian school.
So I went home and had another defining moment. I told God I would put all my eggs in one basket. I wouldn't apply anywhere else for graduate school. But if He got me into RGU, I made a deal that I would be His before classes started. 
So fast forward to after I'm accepted and it's the day before classes begin. My parents are moving me to Atlanta where I don't know a single person and I get to meet my sweet roommate Val that Sunday night. 
But first, they took me to church, and it suddenly hit me around noon in church that I had not done a single thing about my end of the bargain with God. So I started silently praying, "Jesus, I don't know what this looks like, but I'm yours." 
I was pretty nervous, and when we got back into our van in the parking deck, I just crawled up to hold my parents' hands and hung my head, and just started weeping. [00:10:48] My dad asked what was wrong and I simply said, "I think I'm ready to make that change." And instantly I felt this washing and cleansing sensation come over me and I was immediately free from all my past and I had this indescribable joy and excitement.
I found out later what was happening in that moment when I read my Bible, specifically Romans 10:9, where it says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. That is my prayer for every listener. Life has never been the same, and God just continues to be near, dear, and clear. 
As school began and I was studying to become a marriage and family therapist, I chose the specialization of Christian sex therapy. But I had no idea that it would someday turn into a future opportunity to share about sexual wholeness on The Savvy Sauce. I anticipate hosting many guests to speak on this topic. [00:11:49] 
A few months later, I met my husband Mark through our church, and other than salvation, he truly has been the greatest gift ever given to me. I absolutely adore him, and I will probably refer to him a lot throughout this podcast.
We got married in Atlanta and then started our adventure of marriage in San Diego, where Mark chose to leave his career with IBM in lieu of pursuing franchise ownership of a Chick-fil-A restaurant. I started seeing clients at a private practice and I also worked part-time at the local Chick-fil-A by his side, literally register by register, so that we could both learn this family business.
After about four years of marriage, we welcomed our first daughter, and now we are blessed with three girls. They're ages four, three, and one at this launch date. And I think we've moved nine times in nine years of marriage, often cross-country moves for work purposes. But as long as God has us in central Illinois, we plan to put down roots here, where we enjoy hosting other families for dinner, spending time with our three sweet daughters, and going on weekly date nights. [00:12:58] 
Natalie Baker: Ah, sis, I love hearing your testimony. So what can listeners expect from you as the host of The Savvy Sauce? 
Laura Dugger: Well, I'll mostly be asking questions of the weekly featured guests. You won't really hear me interjecting my opinions or stories often because I've always appreciated hosts who were able to get out of the way of their expert guests that they were interviewing.
And I think also because my training in marriage and family therapy conditioned me to be most effective by listening about 80% to 90% of the time and only offering my input if it was beneficial to the client. So I hope to do the same for all of our listeners.
Lauren Sauter: Okay, so that's us in a nutshell. Now we each have selected one of our favorite things that we want one of you to be the recipient of. 
Laura Dugger: So, Natalie, what is your favorite thing? 
Natalie Baker: Well, I love organization and travel, and right now I am loving this set of linen origami pouches from my friend Molly's company. It's called Fair and Simple. [00:13:56] Her business supports fair living wages and safe work environments for people in impoverished areas. 
Laura Dugger: That's so fun. I love it. And now Lauren, what is your favorite thing? 
Lauren Sauter: So my best friend in Thailand, her name's Liv. She started a business called LivThai that connects artisans in Thailand to the worldwide marketplace. Her tagline is connecting cultures through beauty
But my favorite thing that she sells is this leather wrap bracelet. You can check it out and all of her other things at LiveThai.com. 
Natalie Baker: Oh, I love that, Lauren. Laura, what's yours? 
Laura Dugger: Sure. Because I love to read, I've chosen to include a copy of my favorite magazine, Life Beautiful. It comes out quarterly and it's not only beautiful for your eyes, but also for your soul. 
Natalie Baker: This is so fun. Lauren, do you think we could put a picture of all of this stuff up on the site? 
Lauren Sauter: Yes, totally. It will all be up on social media and you can find it on Instagram and Facebook under The Savvy Sauce. You'll have all the details on how to enter and see what we're talking about. [00:14:57] 
Natalie Baker: Awesome.
Laura Dugger: All right. So keep listening if you want to learn how to enter that giveaway. 
Lauren Sauter: So Laura, I think we need to hear a little bit of the backstory and how The Savvy Sauce came to be and your heart behind it. 
Laura Dugger: Of course. God kept giving me this desire to start a podcast, and I told my husband that this thought just kept coming to me every morning as I read my Bible. And it was something I told Mark that I would love to do in like five years when all of our kids are in school. To which he gently responded, "If God's speaking to you about this daily, it sounds like a command and you need to be obedient." So that was exciting to hear that. And I realized that this dream actually might be able to happen quicker than I had expected. 
When we started sharing this idea with family and friends, we were met with lots of support. For instance, I was nervous about the technical side because I definitely lack that skill set. And that's one reason that I'm so thankful that you, Natalie, are a sound genius and that you quickly said yes to being the editor. [00:15:57] 
I also knew that my lane was not social media because I wanted to focus more on being present to respond to comments that come in through our website. But I value social media and wanted a presence there where people could come to build community. And that's why I'm so thankful that you, Lauren, can use your unique skill set to run our social media page.
These are some simple examples of how God just kept placing the right people in the right spot and He frequently revealed scripture to provide encouragement to me along the way. 
So here's one piece of scripture that's been especially meaningful. It's from Luke 1:45 and it says, "Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished." 
I envision this podcast to be a practical way that we can grow in wisdom. We know that plain knowledge can sometimes puff us up, but wisdom, as my husband says, is simply knowledge applied, and the Bible seems to encourage that a lot. [00:16:57] 
So my husband Mark and I were discussing this goal of growing in wisdom, and that's how we landed on the tagline, practical chats for intentional living. And now we're excited to share this labor of love with all of you. And we hope you always find encouragement and inclusivity and generosity here. 
Natalie Baker: Our real hope is that you will not listen to this podcast as an end in itself, but our prayer is that it will actually inspire you to know God more, for you to read His words in the Bible, to reach out to Him for help and guidance through prayer, and to connect with other people who can encourage you along his journey. 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. To sum it up, the mission behind The Savvy Sauce is one line. We exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing. 
Lauren Sauter: So something you'll notice in every episode is one reoccurring question that Laura will always ask the guest. The question relates to our title because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge, and we want our guests to be able to share their tips so that we can replicate their savvy ways. [00:18:00] 
Laura Dugger: Yes. So Natalie, you get to be the first guest we ask, what is your savvy sauce? 
Natalie Baker: Okay, mine is to get out and travel. Growing up, vacations were always a big deal to our dad, so they were something we were all excited about and looked forward to. And now with a family of my own, I just love it when we can get away. 
There's something about being in a different place that almost seems to give you permission to be the freest, lightest version of yourself. And we don't have a huge budget, but we have made traveling a priority. And we plan to expose our kids to as much of the world and the people in it as we possibly can. 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I love it. Lauren, now same question to you. What is your savvy sauce?
Lauren Sauter: As I said, I am now a farmer's wife, which means that my husband works really long hours in the fall and spring. And I think I was complaining a lot to my husband because he kind of sat me down and was like, Okay, let's problem-solve. And thankfully he's an amazing problem solver. [00:19:01] I don't always want him to solve my problems, but in this case, I did.
We sat down and we talked through what it would realistically look like for me to get a break on a weekly basis to just recharge. I told him that I just wanted to go grocery shopping by myself, it sounds really silly, or just have some guilt-free time to run errands or read a book or go ride with him in the combine if I wanted to. 
And so he looked at our budget and what we could afford each week for me to get a babysitter for just a few hours. We're not talking like I'm gone a day at a time or whatever, but just a couple hours. And then multiplied it by 52, which would cover me for the whole year. And then he wrote me a check for that amount of money. I know it seems silly that he would write me a check, but it was amazing. 
Like I literally ran to the bank and I cashed the check and now have this special stash of money that's just for me to use guilt-free. [00:19:59] 
Natalie Baker: Oh, I love that. That's awesome. Laura, your turn. What is your savvy sauce? 
Laura Dugger: I would say my savvy sauce is to ask questions and then listen well. I know that I'm energized when I'm learning something new and I found that the best way to learn something daily is simply through listening and asking questions.
You just never know what kind of adventure you're going to go on through conversations. And I would say my heart behind asking questions is to intentionally consider others and focus my attention on them so that they ultimately experience love. 
Natalie Baker: And let me just say, you do it well. 
Lauren Sauter: So well. You are the best. 
Laura Dugger: It's so humbling to hear that. Thanks, guys. 
We have so many people to thank and we could not conclude this intro episode without listing all these people. So Lauren, why don't you start us off? Who do you want to say thank you to? 
Lauren Sauter: Yeah, I just want to thank you, Laura, for entrusting me with the social media aspect of The Savvy Sauce. [00:20:59] I was surprised when you asked me, but I think it's a huge honor to be able to serve in this way and be able to connect with all of you out there. I'm really excited.
I just want to thank my husband, Steven. He's always my biggest cheerleader when I am scared to do things or am intimidated to try something new. He just believes the best in me and thinks that I can do whatever I put my mind to, and so he's always the one saying, go, do it, have fun, and learn and grow from it. And so I'm just thankful that he's in my life to push me to do things outside of my comfort zone.
Laura Dugger: Natalie, how about you? Who would you like to thank? 
Natalie Baker: First of all, I want to say thank you to my husband, who has supported me in this editing role from the very first time I mentioned the crazy idea to him, and who also works out all my technology issues and makes sure that I have some kid-free time to edit each week.
Thanks to my pops for his support and guidance and for instilling a strong work ethic in me from an early age. To my mama, who is an amazing cheerleader and an example of sacrificial love. [00:22:03] And to my in-laws, who are so supportive and always willing to watch the kids. And to you, sis, for trusting me with your heart's work in this podcast. And mostly thanks to God for His unspeakable gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you, sis. 
Lauren Sauter: Okay, Laura, your turn. Who do you want to thank?
Laura Dugger: Okay, well, we wouldn't be here without my incredible husband, Mark Dugger. He's daily been my hilarious, consistent, and loving advocate. His hard work to support our family is actually what makes this podcast financially possible. He is truly my favorite person, and I just respect and admire and love and adore him more than I could possibly express here.
I also want to thank my family and my in-laws. Their instant response was purely encouragement, excitement, and even sponsorship. My mom is one of the most merciful and loving people that you'll ever meet, and she's the one who first introduced me to podcasts. [00:23:02] And my dad is one of the most well-respected, amazing men that you'll ever meet, and he has agreed to be a future guest on the show.
I also want to say thank you to our Bible study group, Allison, Angela, April, and Jesse. You all even created The Savvy Sauce swag before we were a real business. And that's in addition to the two of you here, Natalie and Lauren, who are also in that same Bible study group. This podcast would not have been launched without the two of you, and it would not have been this much fun without getting to work with you two.
Thank you to my neighbors who joyfully babysat and poured into our girls while we recorded. Thank you to Richmond Graduate University, where I learned this important work of serving others in the realm of marriage and family therapy. 
And thank you to our Chick-fil-A family, who continues to teach us about servant leadership. Thank you to our graphic designer, Brittany [Zeltwanger?], our friend Kevin Malone, who created the music that you're going to hear paired with the gospel message, and our other friend, Nick Maloof, who helped us design our website. [00:24:09]  
Thank you to our amazing guests who said yes and are willing to share their time and bring many people knowledge and inspiration. And thanks to you, the listener, for giving us a chance. You are who we exist to serve.
Finally, but most importantly, thank you to God. He really gets the credit and the glory for supplying us with never-ending ideas, truth, and support, especially through His written Word that He's so graciously preserved for us for thousands of years, and His Holy Spirit that He promises to give us when we become His. This is my offering back to Him as an attempt to do my part in bringing Him glory. Thanks for listening. 
And as promised, we want to let you know how to enter to win this giveaway of our favorite things. Just go over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "Giveaways" tab. We'll have a Rafflecopter giveaway set up for you and there'll be easy instructions to follow for your chance to enter to win. Thanks for participating. [00:25:12] 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:26:12] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:27:12] 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:28:15] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.