*The Savvy Sauce*

17 Being on Both Sides of Forgiveness With International Speaker, Adelle Campbell Dickie

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains thematic material
 
17. Everyone Has a Story: Being on Both Sides of Forgiveness With International Speaker, Adelle Campbell Dickie
 
**Transcript Below**
 
Proverbs 3:5+6 (NKJV) “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.” 
 
Adelle Campbell Dickie is an international speaker who laughs, smiles and sings to the Lord because her faith has led her through a series of real-life trials. Her inspirational testimony of God’s presence in her life will offer you a compelling plea to turn to God for help and answers with issues that are pressing on your mind today.
 
Adelle’s Website
Connect with Adelle on Facebook 
 
Steve Campbell’s Resolutions: 
Live until I die
For as much sickness as there is in our home, there will be a sick sense of humor to balance it out
 
Adelle’s Encouragement to Listeners:
Totally commit this situation to the Lord
Trust He has a plan for you
Train yourself in the good times 
Turn your eyes not on what is seen but on what is unseen
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcript**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
Adelle and I met while we were living in Indiana a few years ago. Each time we saw each other at church events or social gatherings, I found myself drawn to conversations with her. She had an inner peace that was evident, and when I learned about her story, I was speechless. 
We're going to discuss many tragic events as she shares her story today, but it's all in light of a bigger story of God's redemption and restoration. Here's my chat with international speaker Adelle Dickie. 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Adelle. 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: Thank you. Good morning. [00:01:17] 
Laura Dugger: Good morning. So great to be with you. You are just an amazing woman with an extraordinary story. Will you share it with us?
Adelle Campbell Dickie: I'd be glad to. I wasn't raised in a Christian home, so at the age of five, I walked up the street and I heard music coming out of doors of a church and I would sit across the street and listen to that music. One day a lady came over and said that she taught a Sunday school class for children my age, would I like to come in? 
I went in with a little sundress and no shoes on that morning and this lady knew who I was and she knew my family. So she sent me home that day and told me to ask my parents if I could come back. I began going to Sunday school each week. 
When I would miss a Sunday, she would send me a postcard. And I thought that was a big deal. So for all those Sunday school teachers out there that don't think that they get through to children, this woman, just a postcard kept me coming to church. [00:02:23] 
At the age of 12, that same lady told me about a church camp. She told me it was 10 days long and that she was a little concerned because I hadn't been away from home that long at the age of 12. But I was the youngest of five children. And as you can imagine, being the youngest, you do get teased a lot. 
That year, my brothers and sisters had teased me about being adopted. And they went so far as to say they knew my name before I was adopted into our family. And it was so believable because my sisters were tiny and petite. And by the age of 12, I was already like five foot eight. So it was incredible that year when she invited me to leave. I thought, "Well, that'll be really good."
So I went to this church camp and even though I had heard all the stories, Sunday school, that is when I realized that that was a personal relationship that I could have with Christ. [00:03:25] Therefore, that week I accepted Christ as my personal Savior, and little did I know what that would mean for me. 
As I went on, every year I would go back to that camp. It was like my food for the year. As I got a little bit older, I was in a youth group. When I turned 16, I decided I was going to go to the church in the next town because I could. I had met other kids from the church in the next town about 10 miles away at that camp. 
So I went there. I wish I could say it was for great spiritual insight, but actually, it was because I knew all the kids in my youth group and I thought, "Well, I'm going to go over there and make new friends and get to know new people." That was a great opportunity for me. I began to build my foundation through going to that youth group. I would go each Sunday evening. 
One Sunday afternoon, it was September 16th, it was a beautiful fall day and I was driving through the countryside and where I live there's a large Amish community and I loved looking at the horses. [00:04:36] I was 18 years old and that day when I was going through the countryside a little boy ran in front of my car and was killed instantly. The little boy that I hit was 5 years old at the time. My greatest fear became a reality. 
I looked back at what I had learned in all of those camps and all of the things I had read in the Bible, and the two things I learned at the first camp I went to were Proverbs 3:5-6, trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not into your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He'll direct your path. 
There was also another thing I learned, and it was a poem that goes, faith, fact, and feeling are sitting on a wall. Feeling falls off and pulls faith down, but the fact remains, and pulls faith back up, and sooner or later, along comes feelings. 
My feelings were all over the place, and it had pulled my faith down, but the fact was that Jesus Christ was King of kings and Lord of lords, the same yesterday, today, and forever. [00:05:45] As I looked at that fact and continued to look at that fact, it pulled my faith back, and sooner or later, my feelings did come. 
Proverbs 3:5-6 helped me so much because it said, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not into your own understanding." I could not understand how I was headed to a church meeting and a little boy could run in front of my car and be killed. Just that quick. It said, "Don't lean on to my own understanding, but in all my ways acknowledge Him and He would direct my path." 
So I decided that would be my life first. I would acknowledge Him in all that I did, I would trust in Him and He has directed my path. But it was step by step. It's not like we can look down the road. It's like moment by moment, day by day. And that helped me tremendously. 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I'm sure that you absolutely clung to that scripture. [00:06:48] What are some ways that God was directing your paths, even your path to that little boy's mom? 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: There's quite a story with that mother. As I went on about 10 days later, the mother of the little boy was expecting her eighth child. She had seven boys and was overdue at that time for her eighth baby. In fact, on the way, when she heard the accident happen, on her way running out to the accident, she had fallen.
I had just finished a year of nursing school, so I was quite concerned for her. When she picked up little Daniel in her arms... she was an Amish lady. At that time there were no cell phones or anything. So there was a lady that stopped at the scene of the accident and we went on into the hospital where he was looked at, pronounced dead. 
But Ruthann was the mother's name, and she was a wonderful woman. [00:07:49] Three days later, she gave birth to her first baby girl. I didn't know exactly what to do because I was only 18, but I wanted her to know that I was thinking of her. So our hospital in our small town in Indiana has 18 beds, I think at that time. And so it was really small. I went to the hospital and I delivered a rose to the nurse's station and I asked them to take it back to her and just to let her know that I was thinking of her. 
A few days later, I received this letter from Ruthann and I want to read it for you. "Dear friend in Christ, the nurse just brought me the rose you brought. It was very thoughtful of you, and you'll never know how much it means to me. I had to think it's such a perfect flower, just like little Daniel's life here. Not that he was perfect because he was just like any normal child, but because he was just like a flower in the most beautiful part of his life, so innocent and sweet. [00:08:53] 
Our prayer is always that we can, with God's help, bring our children up in such a way that we can give them back to the Lord someday. Al and I were talking all of this over, and perhaps this is the only way for some of them to get to Jesus. 
Daniel did and said some things during these last weeks here that were truly a gift from God. We didn't know it or think of it then, but now they come to us. We are so glad and thankful for them. They are memories that greatly comfort us and, yes, even help us to smile. 
This summer, some of the boys and I were talking of getting another new baby. I asked, what would you name the baby? And Daniel answered, even without thinking, 'Rachel'." So we decided to name our baby Rachel. I think it's a gift of God that we had that little talk and I think it's a comfort to know that God cares for us even in such small ways as that."
And now, last but not least, I want to tell you how glad I am that someone like you was chosen to fulfill God's will of taking Daniel to his heavenly home. [00:09:56] How hard it would have been had it been someone who did not know our Christ Jesus or maybe not cared. But with you, it's different. We both worship the same God, perhaps in different ways. May these words comfort you in the days to come, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth to those things which are before. Philippians 3:13. 
I would not have believed that one could be comforted at a time like this before, but now it has happened to us. We can actually feel His peace and comfort upon us and we know it's because of all our prayers and your prayers and those of many friends and relatives. Our prayer for you is that you too may experience this same comfort and peace. Friends in Christ, Al, and Ruthann." 
When I read that letter, I realized that Ruthann was a unique woman. She had an eighth-grade education, as that's all the Amish school goes to, but she wrote a letter that extended forgiveness in a way that most people don't ever have to do. [00:11:02] It made me think of Christ's forgiveness as He sent His only Son on the cross for me. 
So that letter became a very treasured gift in my life. because that forgiveness gave me a freedom, just as Christ's forgiveness gives us a freedom. She gave me a freedom at the age of 18. I had been asked several times about forgiveness in the whole thing, but I realized that forgiving myself would be the hardest thing. I kept thinking, "If I would have left home one minute earlier, this wouldn't have happened. If I would have left home one minute later, this wouldn't happen." And yet, none of this was a surprise to God. 
Forgiving myself was a difficult thing, but I realized if I didn't choose to forgive myself, then I negated what Christ did on the cross for me. Because forgiveness is what He sent His Son for. And if I didn't forgive myself, then I wasn't accepting His forgiveness in fullness. [00:12:08] So that was a lesson that was a gift to me from a mother whom I took her child's life. I think that's an incredible gift that she gave me. 
Laura Dugger: That is so profound and I'm sure many are moved to tears just hearing how Christlike she was to you. But then your story continues. Let's start with: were there any people that came around to help comfort you and walk with you through your own journey of grief? 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: There were a lot of people that had impacted my life throughout the whole time. The people that were leaders of the youth group were profoundly important in my life. They were like spiritual parents to me, since I didn't come from a church-going family. So they were very much encouragers and helpers during that time. [00:13:08] 
Also, I had met a young man at church camp several years prior and had gotten to know him quite well. He was one of those guys that we became friends, but I wasn't interested in him. However, I did know that he was interested in me. Throughout the journey of this experience, he had been out in another state doing some work and came home, and his friendship was a very great encouragement. 
He was a few years older. He was a solid Christian and what a great encourager. That friendship grew into a little bit more than that. The poor guy had to ask me several times, but as we looked back many years later, we realized he asked me to marry him 23 times before I finally said yes. 
Laura Dugger: No. 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: I wasn't an easy catch, but he always told me I was worth it. And so was he. At the young age of 19, I got married to Steve Campbell, and he was a blessing in my life. [00:14:16] We were only married a few years, and we found out we were expecting our first child, which I don't care how old women get to be, that's an exciting time of life and it's something we never forget. 
I have a friend who, when she turned 100, I asked her, I said, "Do you remember expecting your first child?" And she said, "Well, of course I do." Now, she was a very young mom and she said, "I remember distinctly." But she said, "You know, back then we didn't have all these tests, but I can tell you one thing, we didn't need them. There was a time where you just knew." We laughed about that, but it's a treasured time in life. 
We were only a few months into that pregnancy when my husband became ill. And being a nurse, I thought, "Well, I don't want to pamper him too much." So the day went on, and later in the day he told me he wasn't feeling well at all. I took him to the hospital because in that area of time, the doctor's office is closed at noon on Wednesdays and it happened to be a Wednesday in our area. [00:15:27] 
So we went to an emergency room and they admitted him and they began to do tests on him. A few days later, they asked if they could have a conference with us. And we said, "Of course." We sat down and they told us that he had a congenital heart defect and that also he had a degenerative disease of the heart, and there was nothing they could do about it, and he would probably live seven to ten years. 
We were quite devastated and yet we felt the presence of the Lord so strong. Once again, I referred back to Proverbs 3:5-6, trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not unto your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He'll direct our path. And that's what we did. 
We looked at that, they said seven to ten years, and I remember distinctly thinking, "I was 22 at the time, and I thought, well, if he lives ten years, I'll be 32, and that's middle age, and life will be smoothed out by then. Now I laugh because I am twice that age. [00:16:35] So if 32 is middle age, I'm in big trouble in a few years here. 
I can also remember they told us that because of his condition, we would have a problem because this could be very hereditary. They said our pregnancy was so young in that stage that we should consider an abortion. That was one time that I was so grateful that we had hidden God's Word in our heart and we knew that this was His plan in our life. 
My husband looked at him and said, "I'm sorry, but we're not interested in that. God had a plan for us and we're going to follow through with it." They told us, "You know, you've had a lot of information given to you today. Why don't you come back in a week and we'll discuss that again." And my husband looked at him and said, We don't need to come back. " We already know that this is God's plan for our life."
That was a defining moment for us. I was so proud of him that he knew exactly what to say and what to do. [00:17:35] And that's why it's so important that we know ahead of time. We can't prepare for a crisis after a crisis has happened. That's why in the good times, we need to be nurturing our souls and our relationships with the Lord so that when trials do come we have what we need to sustain us through those, and we have the answers that He's given us ahead of time. 
So, we left that hospital, and little did I know that in the next few months, there would be a lot of hospital trips. During my pregnancy, Steve had five surgeries in six months. He had pacemakers put in and they would fail and they tried several things. But still at the end of that nine-month pregnancy, we were very blessed with a healthy, happy, very normal nine-pound little boy and we named him Caleb. So God was very gracious to us. 
We were fortunate that Steve was able to go back to work. We had owned our own business, and God provided a buyer for that business because it was a swimming pool company. [00:18:41] And even though Steve did most of the sales, he oftentimes helped with the manual labor and he would no longer be able to do that. 
But he did have an English literature degree from college that I always teased him about, like, you know, if you're not going to teach English in college or in high school, what good is that? But it did open the doors for him in a company. He was a very good communicator. So God opened the doors in a corporation that provided very good insurance for us, and little did we know how much we would need that over the next few years. 
So every step of the way God provided a path, and we took each step one step at a time. Oftentimes in life, I think we want to know our future. We want to plan everything out. And yet the way we're supposed to do things is one day at a time and live that day to the fullest. So that's what we did. 
When Steve got his diagnosis, there were two things he looked at me and said. He said, "You know, I'm going to live till I die. A lot of people that get a diagnosis that they're not going to live long, they stop living." He said, "I'm going to live every day to the fullest and I'm going to live till I die." [00:19:53] 
The other thing that he said that he lived out very well was he said, "For as much sickness as there is in our home, there's going to be a sixth sense of humor to balance it out." And that was exactly how we lived. We were always laughing in our home. He was always pulling some kind of prank on me. I learned very much to develop a sense of humor that I didn't have prior to marrying him. 
He taught me how to really live in the joy of today. Sometimes it was standing behind a door and surprising me like that. Sometimes it was getting into a shower and realized that he had taken the shower head off, dried it out, poured Kool-Aid in it. So when I turned the shower head on, I was doused with red water instead of just shower water. 
So there were several things we learned along the way that we need to learn to take today as the most important instead of looking so far down the future. [00:20:52] Not that we don't have to plan, because we do, but we need to make the most of each day. 
That's one thing that I've really been appreciative of over my life, is learning to appreciate each person as they come. You know, maybe going into the grocery store and being kind to the checkout lady after you hear somebody that was snarly before you. Just take the opportunity to make each person that comes into your path, smile for some reason that day. 
So those are the small things. But as life went on, we decided that we were going to have another child. Even though there was a risk involved, we realized that there was absolutely nothing wrong with our first child. So we got pregnant the second time and we were excited about that. Some of the other people in our lives weren't as excited and I realized then that we don't always have to share everything we think. 
A lot of people shared with me that they couldn't believe we'd have a second child. They couldn't believe we'd go to the risk. And I just thought, "You know, this is already done. So I wasn't sure why they felt the need to give me their opinions." [00:22:06] But I've learned in my life that I don't always have to share my feelings with other people and my opinions when they're not positive. That wasn't a bad lesson at that time either.
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Adelle Campbell Dickie: So we were due on Thanksgiving and unfortunately my first pregnancy went a little long and so did my second because we delivered on Christmas Day. So that was a little long but we were very excited because we had a little girl and our family was complete. 
Melissa weighed in at 10 pounds and Steve looked at me and said, "I don't think we should go for 11." And I'm like, what's this "we" business?" I didn't know one pound would make a difference to him. But we thought at 10 pounds, we had finished our family. And Melissa was just a delight and still is. [00:23:15] 
I am very blessed. I always thought it was just an added little blessing that she was born on Christmas. People always talk to her about how awful it would be to have a birthday on Christmas. And she was always like, No, I was doubly blessed because we always had a party for her, like on the 5th of December for her school friends. And then she also got presents on Christmas for her birthday and Christmas. So she really didn't mind at all having a birthday on Christmas. So that worked out really well. 
The next few years, life went on. I wish I could say it was smooth, but for us, it was normal. And oftentimes we look down the street and we want the normal of the house next door where, you know, if my husband worked those hours, then our life would be better. Or if my husband made the money that the neighbor across the way made, our life would be better. And yet normal is what's normal to you. For us, living with illness became a normal. [00:24:16] 
We learned how to navigate that in the best way we could. And oftentimes that meant we would plan a vacation, but we'd never tell our children because in case Steve got sick, we didn't want to disappoint them. So it was always a surprise and it worked well for us. We just have to realize what is your normal? And can you learn to be content in your normal? 
And that's what we chose to do. We learned to be content with what we had and the way our home ran. Our home ran differently than most people. Steve went to work, but by the time he got home, he was very tired. So I had to do a lot of the things that most men do. I took care of the outside of the home. But, you know, I had a father who taught me a lot of those things growing up, and I loved trailing him around. He worked on cars. He taught us how to work on cars. So I knew how to do a lot of things that a lot of my friends didn't know how to do. [00:25:14] 
I can even remember Being grateful that my grandparents lived on a farm and as we were younger, I learned how to put roofing on. So when it came time to roof a house, I knew what to do. And I did have friends help me and actually they did it and I helped them. I was grateful for those things. 
And you know, I really learned women's work. They talk about it never being done. It's true. You never finish your laundry. Every week we have that. But if you roof a house and you go past that for the next 20 years, it's done. So there were some advantages in all of those things, too. 
But you have to look for the good in life. And that's what we chose to do. As he said, how much sickness there was, there was a sense of humor that balanced that out. And God gives us that gift. It says in Proverbs that laughter is good medicine. And oftentimes, we take life way too seriously. We need to laugh more often. 
I always challenge people, when's the last time you made someone laugh? [00:26:15] Has it been so long that if you tried to make them laugh, they'd look at you like something was wrong or take you away or would they realize that your gift to them is making them laugh? So those are some of the practical things that we applied in our life. 
Life was going along pretty well. Our children were seven and ten. I remember every year on September 16th, I would stay busy. That was the anniversary of the death of the little boy. And I remember this September 16th, my sister had asked me to help her move. She was moving from about 20 miles south of our home to about 10 or 15 miles north. 
It was a very interesting day because September 16th, the day that I hit the little boy, was a beautiful fall day. That's why I had decided to go through the country and look at the horses. This September 16th, it was 14 years later and it was a rainy, misty day, so I was kind of glad I had something to do. [00:27:19] 
My children had gotten up that morning. I sent them off to school. Caleb told me he had soccer practice, which I knew, and he was going to go right after school. Melissa asked me if she could go watch him, so I knew that they would be going right after school to their soccer practice. 
My sister and I went down and loaded everything up into a truck, and I'm talking everything. We loaded her washer, dryer, stove, refrigerator, everything into this truck, and we headed back to our home. We were going to stop in our home and pick up the children and go on and start unloading. 
When we got to my home, we had loaded up this truck, so we parked the truck in front of my home, went in the house, got a drink, and then I looked at my sister and I said, "We need to go check on the kids." So we got into my car. And that's only funny because I live on the edge of the park complex. We should have just walked through the backyard and out into the Little League fields. [00:28:20] But I was so tired that I said, "Let's just get in the car and drive around the block."
We drove around the block, but the kids weren't at the soccer practice field behind my home. So I thought, you know, I probably didn't listen well, and Caleb's soccer practice was probably at the private school just two blocks down. So I drove past the corner and went on down to the private school, and yet I saw no children. 
So I looked at my sister and said, "You know, it's kind of rainy and misty, they probably didn't have soccer practice, and my kids are probably cutting through somebody's yard right now. We probably ought to go back home." 
As we went around the corner again, I noticed when we had gone the first time, there were quite a few people on that corner, but I didn't think that much about it. As we came back around to go home again, I saw a little boy that I knew, he had played baseball with my son that summer, and I rolled my window down and I asked him, "What happened back on this corner?" He looked up at me and he said, "Caleb Campbell's little sister just got hit by a car." And I was stunned. 
I was grateful I was in the car. Our hospital is only about five blocks from our home. So I turned the car, started to head towards the hospital, and I remember thinking, "We're going to get there and she's just going to be bumped and bruised." And then I remember also thinking, "We're going to get there and she's already going to be gone." [00:29:47] 
So I pull up to the emergency room. I put my car into park and I ran into the emergency room. And if I wouldn't have gotten Melissa dressed that morning, "I wouldn't have known she was my child." But I looked and they were starting her heart back up as I walked into the room. They looked at me and they said, "She's in grave condition. We're going to try to get her stable here. And then we need to take her to the larger hospital about 25 miles from where we live." Actually in the town where my husband worked. 
So they said, "You need to call your husband and have him meet you there." And I thought, "How do I call him with a heart condition and tell him this news without making the situation worse?" But I called and he answered his own phone that day, which back then in a corporation, oftentimes you had to go through secretaries or switchboards or whatever. But that day it went straight through. And I said, "Steve, Melissa's been hurt and we're going to bring her up to the hospital. Could you meet us there with the insurance information?" [00:30:49] 
I thought if I kind of worded it like that he would know that I just needed that information, even though he knew that it had to be something large for them to transfer her up there. 
After I hung up the phone with Steve, we all got into the ambulance. I had to ride in the front with the ambulance driver because the doctor and nurse got in the back with the EMTs and they were still working on Melissa, trying to make sure she stayed stable. 
As we entered into the large town, I realized how grave of a situation it was because they had called ahead and there were police cars blocking each intersection so that the ambulance didn't even have to slow down, just rushed to the hospital. 
When we got there to the trauma unit, they rushed her right in. They met with us and told us that they would be taking her back and doing some tests and assessments, and the doctors would be out shortly. [00:31:46] Well, that shortly wasn't quite as quick as I would have liked, but when they came out, they said, "Melissa is in such a grave condition that we're not going to be able to do any surgery on her to close the wound to her head. She had been thrown in the air by the car and landed on her head and her head had an explosive laceration." 
So they didn't know exactly what the next 24 hours would bring and they told us that would be the critical period. After that 24 hours, they came to us and told us that she had lost so much blood that they needed to close the wounds, and there was a 50-50 chance of her making it through that surgery to close those wounds. 
During that night, I realized that for the first time, I really understood what it meant to pray without ceasing. That no matter what happened when the nurses and doctors came to talk with us that I was in the attitude of prayer, that I was in communion with the Lord at all times during that time. [00:32:48] So therefore, I was praying without ceasing, even through the interruptions. And that was the first time I literally understood what that verse meant. 
I also knew that I had prayed in the ambulance, and I didn't realize at the time, but I had prayed out loud, and the EMTs had told me later. But my prayer was this, "Lord, you gave her to us, and she's yours to take back. And I know, Lord, if you take her home to be with you, she'll be complete and whole. But Lord, I'm just asking that if you give her back to us, that you give her back complete and whole," or, Lord, I ask that you just take her." So I knew that during that surgery, it was a very important time. 
They took her in and I knew if she came out that she was going to be fine. Otherwise, He was going to take her during that surgery. And I don't know how I knew that, but I did know that. And when they came out and told us that she made it through the surgery, I knew she was going to be fine. [00:33:50] What I didn't know was how long “fine” takes sometimes. 
The doctors didn't quite agree with me. They told me that she was in a deep coma and if and when she came out, she would never be normal, that she had a brain stem injury, and that she would never be able to be anything but a vegetable if she did come out of the coma. 
Over the next weeks, it was watching her lay there. She was on a ventilator at first. They were able to remove that. I never knew much about comas. I didn't realize that different parts of the brain wake up at different times. But that's exactly what happened. Her eyes were open at a certain point, but she couldn't see. She began to hear. That was the first thing that really came around. 
She was in a deep coma for almost six weeks. And at the end of that six weeks, she wasn't fully out of her coma, but different parts woke up at different times. [00:34:51] The reason I say six weeks was that was the day that every single day she went to therapy and they worked with her. But at the end of six weeks, every day I would say to her, "Melissa, say hi, mom". And at the end of that six weeks, she looked at me and said, "Hi, mom." So I knew that she was going to be fine. 
The doctors were quite amazed, actually. A few months later, as she was released from the hospital, the doctor looked at me and he said, "You do realize there's no medical reason this child's walking out of this hospital. And I said, "Yes, I realized that. I wasn't sure you would grasp that." But he was very gracious. 
Melissa was hit on September 16th. She had to learn everything all over. She had to learn how to swallow, how to walk, how to talk. She not only learned those, she learned how to read and write. And by the end of the school year, she had not only learned all those things, but she had caught up with her class in school. So that took my greatest fear and allowed it to become a reality and turned it into a miracle. [00:35:57] 
Those months were very difficult. There was one time where Steve collapsed, and he was on intensive care on a floor above Melissa. She was on intensive care, and the school called and said that Caleb wasn't doing very well in school. And I have to admit that the Holy Spirit took over because I was very kind to that teacher. I wanted to say, "You're kidding." But I said, "If she could just be patient with Caleb, I knew that he would be fine." 
And it was incredible because a few days later, Steve was released from intensive care and Caleb was able to gain back his composure in school. I always say by the end of the school year when Melissa was released from the hospital, that she was not only a miracle, but Steve was back at work and Caleb somehow passed that grade in school too. [00:36:53] So God was really working overtime just to keep our family going. And I was so grateful for all of those things. 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A East Peoria. First, the best kept secret is their chicken for breakfast which is served Monday through Saturday, 6.30 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. My personal favorite are the chicken minis. Four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
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Finally, did you know you can skip the line and earn your way toward free food in the process? Just download the free Chick-fil-A app so you can place your order and pay on your mobile device then bypass the entire line as it's ready for you when you arrive at Chick-fil-A East Peoria. [00:38:01] For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to cfaeastpeoria.com. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, there was so much trauma and drama that continued in your family. Will you keep walking us through Steve's story? 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: Steve was doing quite well, actually, even after Melissa was injured. And then he began to decline rapidly. Living with a terminal illness, I don't really have an explanation to tell people other than saying it's kind of like coming down a ladder. And at different rungs, you pause for a while and that's the way his health was. He would decline for a little bit and then he'd pause there. 
And to look at him, he looked normal, but his heart condition was degenerative. And so his energy level was very low. Within the year of Melissa's release, he had to retire from his work. I always say that all the things the world calls important were taken from Steve. [00:39:12] His ability to provide for his family. His position in the world and his health. And yet, because he knew who he was in Christ, he didn't sit around and feel sorry for himself, but he began to give to others in a way that he couldn't have when he worked. 
He met with businessmen for breakfasts, and he would ask them how he could pray for them. He would meet with someone for lunch, and he would listen to them. And he was no longer a threat to anyone. So they were all very open to listen to him. He retired at the age of 36, so he was very young, and yet he learned to be content as Paul learned to be content. 
I have to admit, it was a longer learning process for me than it was for him. I was concerned. He would just say, "Adelle, take one day at a time. God's provided for us. We're planning the best we can. You will be fine." He had learned to be content, and he had learned to trust in all ways. [00:40:14] 
There were so many things going on in our life. Our children were growing and the next few years we learned a lot. Steve had a group of men that he met with on Thursday mornings and I had to go back to work. I had never been a provider. I had always worked part-time as a nurse. So our roles reversed. It came easily for him. 
I always laughed because I always said he was a mother hen. But for me, it meant giving up a lot of things. As a mom, I wanted to hear the stories when the kids came home from school, and they never tell them the same twice. So he got to hear those stories, and yet God blessed us in so many ways. 
The next few years there were a lot of adjustments and his health would decline a little, but he was always able to get around. He had a health issue and one time the kids came home and found him and they called and he was rushed to the hospital and he had a massive stroke. [00:41:19] He had to learn everything all over again, too. 
It was very interesting how God worked even that out, because Melissa had to go through physical therapy, speech therapy, and occupational therapy. And here Steve was, shortly behind Melissa and we were assigned the same physical therapist, speech therapist, and occupational therapist for him, working with him after the stroke as we had with her. And you know, they had become family during that year of Melissa. So even in small ways, God blessed us. 
I think Steve's recovery from that stroke was better because those women were so in tune to our family already, and they worked right along with us. He recovered his health in a way that, once again, doctors didn't expect. In fact, when he went into the hospital, they said he probably wouldn't last 24 hours. But by the end of that 24 hours, the doctor looked at us and said, "I'm not predicting for your family anymore because you guys just... you always make me look like an idiot." [00:42:24] And we just kind of laughed. 
Over the next week, Steve did regain a lot. And through those therapists, he gained a lot back. He gave to a lot of people during those times. And yet one day, it was in the early part of May, they came and told me that Steve had collapsed. I wasn't surprised because many times he had an issue and I had to do CPR on him. There were times that he had to go back into the hospital. 
So when they came and got me, I just thought it was another one of those times. But they said that he was at a restaurant meeting with a man that he had been praying with, and he collapsed. They did tell me that they had to do CPR, so that was the first time that had ever happened in public. They told me they weren't sure he would still be alive when I got to the hospital. 
When I got there, he was not conscious, but it was shortly after that that he did come conscious. [00:43:24] They had put him on a ventilator, which we had no codes and no heroics at every hospital in our small area, but he had gone to visit a friend about an hour away. So they had done heroics, got him going again, and had him on a ventilator. 
He came around and I looked at him and said, "You know, you just need to relax and let them help you and you'll be fine." And even through a ventilator in his mouth, he looked at me and mouthed, not this time. And so he knew. We transferred him back to the hospital that we had always worked with and he had five days that all our friends came in and family and they were all able to say goodbye to him. 
And that fifth morning, Steve had wanted to get up into a chair and they had him on oxygen and, you know, he could breathe better sitting up. So he got into the reclining chair and I jumped into the bed and we had been lightly sleeping. [00:44:24] And I remember the monitors going off and I got up and out of bed and I kneeled down next to him and I took his hand and he said, "I love you" and he took his last breath. So that was the goodbye that we had. 
You know, those five days were priceless. He looked at me and he said, "The only thing that we have a regret in is our time was too short. But God knows, and God has your future, and you need to trust in Him." So we had the opportunity of saying goodbye in a way that a lot of people don't. So I was very grateful for that. 
The children were in and out of that. And yet that morning was the hardest of my life. I had to come home and tell my kids that their dad had gone to heaven. I don't know what I expected, but when I got home and I woke my son up, it was early in the morning, like six o'clock before school and I said, "Caleb, I just want you to know that your dad went to be with the Lord this morning." [00:45:27] And Caleb said, "You know, Mom, Dad wasn't able to golf this last year and I just bet he's on the greatest greens today." And he said, "I'm sure he's breathing with ease." And I just kind of was surprised. 
I went and woke Melissa up and said, "You know, your dad went to be with the Lord this morning." And she said, "I wonder what his day is going to be like, Mom. No more suffering, no more hard time breathing." That day I said, you know, that's what we need to think about today: "I wonder what dad's day is going to be like today."
So people would come to our home expecting us to be in deep grief. And yet I think it's a great presence he gives us in that time of grief. A lot of people call it shock, but I just call it, it was a sweetness about that day. We just kept looking at each other, wondering, "I wonder what his day is like today." 
And anytime in the next weeks that we were grieving and life was hard, we would look at each other and go, "Yeah, but I wonder what his day is like today." [00:46:31] Because none of us know what heaven's like, but we do know it's a lot greater than what we've got here on earth. So we can look forward to that and we're assured of that time and that... You know, as Steve would always talk about, we'll meet again. And so we were very blessed during those times. 
Life changed a lot in the next year or two. I had to go to work full time and yet God had a plan in that and provided a job far greater than I would have ever anticipated. It was something I absolutely loved. It was going into churches. I was a marketing rep for church directories. So I met with pastors and had them sign contracts. I would go from church to church. 
I always laughed because when I was little, I would ride in the car with my parents and I would always think, "I wonder what that church looks like inside. And I wonder what the people are like inside there." And yet God gave me a job that I got to go into the churches and see what they were like. [00:47:29] Frequently, I would go into sanctuaries and pray before I would go meet with the pastors. And God blessed us in such a great way during that time. 
Then a few years later, I met another wonderful, godly man after my kids were grown and out of the home and I was able to get married again to a wonderful man named Bruce Dickie. I've just been so blessed I've now been married to him 19 years, which was just a little bit longer than I was married to Steve. So we always kind of laugh in our home, and we laughed the other day. I said, "Hey, I just want you to know you now have seniority." So we laugh at things most people wouldn't. But that's the gift that I think God has given us, to see the blessing in even the smallest ways. 
And, yes, we've had a lot of heartache and tragedy, but I always say we've had more blessings in all of that. And we value the day in a greater way. [00:48:30] You know, that's just one of the greatest blessings, I think, that we've learned throughout the whole thing. 
Laura Dugger: Well, Adelle, your gratitude is so inspiring. I really loved how you highlighted, through all of these circumstances, how God was especially tender and loving and personal to you. And there may be listeners today that are going through their own grieving process. It may look very different from yours, but what encouragement do you have for others to apply your life lessons to their situations? 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: I've been asked that question enough that I've thought it through a lot, and there are four things that I think that I have applied in every situation that have helped me tremendously. The first one is I totally commit the situation to the Lord. The second is that I trust. I hang on to Proverbs 3:5-6 to this day in all my ways, acknowledge Him. [00:49:31] 
Then I've learned to train myself in the good times. So get into His word, hide it in your heart. I train myself to praise Him daily. And for each of us, that praise looks a different way. For me, it's singing. So in the days that I don't feel the best, I put in some praise music and I sing along. And before I know it, I'm the one blessed through that praising. 
Then, of course, as you notice, all of these are T's and that's only for my benefit so I can remember them all. But I totally commit, trust He has a plan for you. Train yourself in the good times because you can't prepare for a crisis after a crisis has happened. So we have to train ourselves in the good times. 
The last one is turn our eyes not on what is seen, for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. No matter what my situation is, those are the four things that I look to. And I can always find encouragement as I do those. [00:50:32] I realized that I'm not in control, that God is, and nothing that happens is a surprise to Him. And I can trust Him in all of that. 
Laura Dugger: And you have been such a great steward with your story, and you've spoken internationally. But if listeners want to follow up or connect with you, is there a place where they could find you online? 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: I have a website AdelleDickie.com that they can get information from. But I'm on Facebook so Adelle Dickie on Facebook you can connect with me and any questions you can private message me through that. And that's the easiest way to get a hold of me at this point in time. 
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will link to all of that in the show notes so that they know how to spell your name. 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: Oh yeah, that's true. 
Laura Dugger: We've gone really deep today and you appreciate senses of humor and so we're going to end on a lighter note. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:51:38] 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: Make somebody laugh today. If you do nothing else, make someone laugh today. There's nothing greater than sharing joy. That's my trademark. Let's just make somebody laugh. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you so much for taking the time to dive into your story and thank you for the encouragement that you offer to each of us. I look up to you in so many ways. 
Adelle Campbell Dickie: Thank you for having me. It's been a delight to be with you, and I love getting to know you more. 
Laura Dugger: Well, thanks Adelle. Take care. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:52:38] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? [00:53:38] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:54:41] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

16 Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Blogger and Speaker, Rach Kincaid

16. Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Blogger and Speaker, Rach Kincaid
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Ephesians 4:32 (NIV) “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” 
 
Rachael Kincaid is married to Chris and the mother to six children in her blended family. Additionally, she serves at church, coaches clients, and works as a hospice nurse, blogger, and speaker. She uses the internet to share her faith and encourage women. 
 
Rach’s Website 
Rach’s Favorite Makeup Line 
Connect with Rach on all the social media platforms: @rachkincaid
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17]
Rach Kincaid: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois, and with over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you. 
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.
And if you're interested in sponsoring The Savvy Sauce, we would love to hear from you. Make sure you reach out to us. You can email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. 
Today I get to interview Rach Kincaid. She is married to Chris and she's the mother to six children in her blended family. She uses the internet to share her faith and encourage women. [00:01:20] Today she's going to let us in on a little bit more of her story and her approach to parenting. Here's our chat. 
Hello, Rachel. 
Rach Kincaid: Hi! 
Laura Dugger: I think your story is captivating, so can you just share a bit of your journey with us? 
Rach Kincaid: I would be happy to. I was born and raised in the church, so I grew up in a Christian home and gave my life to Jesus at a pretty young age. I didn't get serious about my walk with the Lord until my late teens, early 20s. 
I went to Christian school. I went to Christian camps. I was in the church, youth group, that kind of thing. But it's just so difficult to make Jesus your own and make your faith in Him your own when you've had... I mean, it sounds silly to say this, but when you had a kind of easy life. I didn't really know that which I had been saved from. I hadn't really hit any kind of rock bottom or identity crisis or anything like that until I had to start figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, you know, college and marriage and career and where I wanted to live and what kind of style I wanted to have. [00:02:31] 
I mean, even down to those little granular levels, I wasn't really sure who I was in my late teens and early 20s. And that is when I realized, "Oh, I'm a daughter of God. That's what I've been practicing my whole life, now I get to actually put it to the test." I would say I got serious about the Lord around that time. 
I met my husband when I was 19. We are 10 years apart, so it's a very interesting story. He was a single dad when I met him, and we ended up dating for four years, basically until my family and his family could come around to the idea of our very strange setup. 
I guess most of my friends and family thought that I'd marry somebody close to my age at my college or some kind of traditional setup. But that was not God's plan for us. We ended up getting married four years later, and we've had custody — we've raised his boys my entire adult life at this point. Their mom is involved. She's local. I'm sure we'll talk about that at some point, because step-parenting is an interesting journey in and of itself. [00:03:32] 
So we had his two boys, and then we had four children in the next three and a half years. So we had one baby about a year after we got married, twins about a year and a half later, and then another baby a year and a half after that. So that's what the last, you know, 10 to 12 years of my life has looked like. And it's been quite a journey. So we've got six kids and a couple acres of land and some chickens, and it's a fun, wild life. 
Laura Dugger: My goodness, yes, adulthood sounds like it's been jam-packed for you. I think that listeners would love to know what it was like to marry someone who had been married before. So did you ever struggle with resentment or bitterness because you had not been previously married? 
Rach Kincaid: That is such a good question. I think we would all anticipate that if we hadn't been in that situation. So I could definitely see from the other side how if I was friends with a woman who married a divorced man or a single dad or any of those things that there might be that issue. [00:04:35] But when I was in it, that is not where I struggled. 
I struggled with the idea that my husband had had a lot of life experience before me. And it was like us bumping heads constantly for the first four or five years about the silly things where I kept having to tell him, "I want a chance to learn how to be a mom and I want a chance to learn where to keep the silverware in the kitchen." 
And he's been this expert single dad with his own routines and patterns, and he had a really difficult time letting go of those. We can laugh about it now, but our very first fight we ever got in was probably two days, three days after our wedding, I had just moved in, and he was smiling at me leaning against the door jamb, watching me vacuum. And he said, "Oh, is that how you vacuum?" And it just set me off to this place of everything I do is now under a microscope, and I'm not even sure if I know the right way to vacuum, but I want to figure it out myself. So we giggle about that now. [00:05:38] 
I don't think I ever struggled with resentment that he had been married before. With the day and age that we have, no one is getting married at 15 to 19 years of age with no previous romantic encounters or experiences. No matter who you marry or when you marry, chances are there's going to be some baggage, whether that be baggage from your family of origin or a previous romantic relationship. 
So I was prepared to deal with that with whomever I married. We did have a really cool couple of conversations before we got serious where we called them honesty nights. And we would be able to ask each other just point blank, really hard questions in a setting that might not have been good to ask while we're driving in the car on the way to dinner or anything like that. 
So I think I was able to get past some of that wonder, why did you and your ex-wife divorce? And whose fault was it really? And did you do these things with her? Did you share those memories with her? I kind of processed that in a way that was healthy and that I can honestly say never struggled with it since we've gotten married. [00:06:41] So that's been a really beautiful process, I think.
Laura Dugger: That is such a mature response. I've heard you speak before about your husband's ex-wife, and you always have a grace-filled approach. Can you just share a little bit more about your bond and your view on that relationship? 
Rach Kincaid: I totally can. I love my husband's ex-wife because he was married to her at some point and she birthed two boys that are very important to me. I never identify her. I never share about her in a way that would be degrading or disrespectful, a) because I just want to be honoring to everybody that I encounter and meet and being online, sharing things on Instagram, speaking, writing, whatever, I think that holds me to a different standard of the way that I talk about people. 
So just common decency keeps me in a good place with her mentally. But even more so the fact that she is not here right now on this interview answering these questions, the fact that she doesn't have the Instagram platform that I have or the opportunities that I have to share about those boys, that right there feels like a gag order. [00:07:49] 
So from the very beginning, we met for coffee when I got engaged and she knew that I was going to be entering into her family. And it might have been cheesy at the time, but I just forced it where I looked at her across from the table at the coffee shop and I said, "When I marry your ex-husband, I am marrying you. I do not want to replace you. I do not want to be the boy's only mom, but I am going to try my best to love them for the rest of my life. And that's going to have to look different." Because you know, God's design—I didn't share this part with her, I'm just sharing this with you—but God's design was not for divorce. God's design was not for children to grow up with multiple sets of parents coming and going. And I know that. 
We're living in the consequences of sin and brokenness, and I knew that going into it and I tried my hardest to say it and spend it in a way that was not threatening, but that also was kind of resolved. I am resolved to loving my husband until I die. [00:08:47] I'm resolved to loving those boys, whether or not other people in their lives want me there or not, you know, different types of family dynamics. 
So it's been a very interesting journey. She and I were actually pretty close friends for a long time. She went into a similar field of work that I did, so we got to kind of share that. We do share mutual friends and connections because we were all from the same area. So I've tried really hard to handle that delicately. 
Over the last few years, we've tried to kind of give each other a little more space. Maybe it's not the best idea to have family dinners with all of us around the table all the time. So just to have our own journey as these boys grow has been important. But for the most part, it has been a really cool experience, not because of anything she or I did, but just because I've asked the Lord from the very beginning to not make it about me, not make it about my feelings, and to also remind myself that birth children or stepchildren, they are never yours to begin with. [00:09:47] 
So I share this all the time when I'm talking about parenting and it doesn't always go over very well. But I'm a nurse, so I have a very morbid sense of reality and sense of humor. Even if you're not in health care, even if you're not a school teacher now, you know that school shootings are happening all the time, you know that car accidents happen all the time, illness happens all the time. 
So I have to trust that God has given me these boys, whether or not I birthed them, to play a part in their lives for a certain amount of time. And so I'm not going to spend any time fighting over whose time is more important or who matters most in their lives or any of that, just like I don't with my birth kids. I tell them I love them every single day. I try to discipline them and disciple them the best way I know how. And then I remind myself that they were never mine to begin with. So that's been a really interesting and helpful dynamic when it comes to kind of sharing children with multiple sets of parents, if that makes sense. 
Laura Dugger: That is incredible. And maybe just for the woman who's listening today who is in your shoes, what if they want to reflect the love of Jesus through their own difficult or unexpected relationships in their lives? [00:10:54] What encouragement would you offer them? 
Rach Kincaid: I would say that in order to do that, it takes a threefold approach to walking with Jesus, something that I've only begun to learn in the last few years. And that is this idea our church calls it upward, inward, outward. 
In order to go to the end result, which is to live in peace with people and to love people well, first we have to have an appropriate, healthy, high, and lofty view of God — that God is so big and so powerful and still chose to love us. Then we have to look inward and figure out how to love ourselves correctly, which means embracing flaws, working through sin, processing past trauma or family issues, getting help, getting counseling, being vulnerable so that we can learn how to see ourselves the way that God sees us. And only then are we able to press outward, which is loving people compassionately. [00:11:54] 
And when you've done the upward inward part and you're doing that every day, then loving people compassionately has nothing to do with the way that they reflect that love back. It's just constant. So whether it's a biological birth mom, or a stepfather, or co-workers that are difficult, or any of those things, it's not a two-way street. It's just me loving them, me loving them the best way that I know how, because I know a God who loved me, and I know how to love myself. 
So my identity does not depend on the way that those people view me, or talk to me, or treat me. Instead of it being what I thought at the beginning was just kind of putting my head in the sand, like, "That doesn't sound like fun. I want them to love me back," now I just focus so much on God and myself, which is interesting, because I grew up thinking focusing on myself was selfish. And if we're doing it correctly, the way that Scripture teaches us, it's actually a very healthy way to live in community. 
So if I'm focusing on God and focusing on myself, then I'm not worried about the way that my love or my actions are received, and it becomes a very simple marching order. [00:13:00] Every day I wake up, I know what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to love God, love myself, and love people. And that, I hope, is encouraging to other women in my situation, or just women in difficult relationships in general, because it's no longer dependent on the way that they receive, process, or reproduce that love back to me. 
Laura Dugger: I love that model. And it kind of ties into another question I have on that topic. Do you have any stories or examples of how you've died to self to love others well? 
Rach Kincaid: Yeah. I would say in raising teenagers, that has been super interesting. Because I know my birth children, my biological children will probably go through the same thing that I've been experiencing recently. And I only know that because I'm in community with older women who have teenagers or college-age kids. I try so hard to stay in relationships with women, moms with kids that are different ages so that I can kind of figure out what to expect or ask for advice or give advice. And that's been really powerful. [00:14:02] So that's just a little side note. 
But some of the women that are raising teens alongside me, pouring into step-sons that are about that age, is just that that age, I've done a lot of reading on it, hormones, science, all of it points to the idea that those kids are supposed to be self-absorbed. Teenagers are supposed to be reflecting, looking inward, navel-gazing, basically to answer one question. And it's like, do I have what it takes? Do I matter to the world? Do I have a place? What am I going to do next? What is life about to me? 
Because up until 15 or 16, I'm just digesting and regurgitating everything my parents, my trusted adults, my teachers have taught me. And now that I'm in high school and I'm looking to the future and people are asking really hard questions... I mean, can you imagine how difficult it is to be 17 and every single time you interact with another adult, they say, what are your plans after high school? I mean, they just, they want to know what's next. 
So if you can imagine how difficult that is, the rest of us, no one asks us those questions. [00:15:03] So they're constantly bombarded with that. And what I've learned is that because of that, they're selfish. They can't really help it. They're focused on whether or not they have enough gas to get to wherever they are to hang out with their friends, or the newest song that just came out from their favorite rapper or shoes. I mean, it sounds cheesy, but it is so important to them. If they miss a viral meme that goes wild online and they come to school and everybody's talking about it, then they're left out, they're ostracized. 
So because of all these things, and they're still trying to figure out, like, do I even believe in the God that my parents taught me about? They're very, very, very inward-focused. And because of that, they're not saying thank you a lot. They're not looking you in the eyes and cheering you on as a parent. 
And at this point it makes me laugh. But at the beginning, I was super wounded by it, because I wanted to treat my kids like peers. And you just can't do that. You can't be their friend, their bestie, their cousin. You just have to be their parent. And so you have to say like, Hey, when I put that money in your account to go to whatever event, I really expect you to say thank you and look me in the eyes and hug me or whatever. [00:16:10] And my boys are amazing at that now. But I would have to say it takes constant conversation. 
And you have to figure out a way not to beat them up about it. It can't be like, You're so selfish, you're ungrateful, or you don't pay attention. It's just this constant reminder that you and I are orbiting each other in this hole, bumping up against each other, doing community, doing life together, and trying to figure out the best way to do it. 
So I can think of an example of just this past week I told one of my boys, you know, "I've never been here before. We've never had teenagers in our home. So here's what we expect from you. Some grace, just like we give you grace when you leave your clothes everywhere or when you try to go out with friends without asking or whatever the thing is. But at the same time, what I think I am doing really well is giving you respect and giving you what you need in this home, and I do expect that to be reciprocated. So I'm not frustrated with you. I'm not mad at you for not doing it up until this point. I'm telling you now, you've been put on notice. I expect you to treat me with the same respect that I'm giving you." [00:17:16] 
And so I would say dying to self looks like those conversations because what I want to do is smack them around with my words, of course. But just kind of like the wakeup call of, you know what I do for you and how much money I make and how much money goes to you and all that. I'm not even talking about my teenagers all the way down to the 5-year-old. I want to be able to tell her, do you know how much preschool costs, and do you know how expensive it is to put clothes on your body that keeps growing? It's so rude, you know? 
But instead, I have to say like, no, they don't know. And we don't want them to leave their family of origin with this idea that they were a burden or a nuisance or they quote-unquote couldn't get it right. Because I don't want them to go into their next season of life feeling like we were not on their team. 
So it's this constant refining. It's the iron sharpening iron. My dad used to say it's like a diamond getting its facets polished. It's uncomfortable. There's friction. It's not fun all the time. And dying to self looks like being willing to enter into that when you'd rather just go to bed and ignore it or yell or not give them what they want or whatever the example may be. [00:18:26] 
Dying to self looks like entering in and saying, I'm willing to get sweaty. I'm willing to be tired tomorrow morning because we stayed up all night talking about this. I'm willing to take the hit and not be the cool parent because I want to teach you something that might save your life or save your soul down the road. 
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Laura Dugger: Okay, so you've mentioned you're in this unique place of parenting teens and littles simultaneously. So how has your parenting style changed as you've grown in wisdom? That is a great question. 
Rach Kincaid: First, I would say it's been incredible to watch teenagers and little kids interact. I thought for sure there would be this big culture gap because there is an age gap. I wish I knew the math right now. I think my eldest son is 13 years older than my baby. 
But I have this photo that I took of them on his graduation day, he graduated from high school this year. And I have a photo that I took where she's sitting on his knee looking up at him and she had just graduated from preschool. [00:20:50] And it hit me that they formed a bond that was not forced. So this idea of expectation, the same expectation across all of my kids, all the different ages, I think it worked. And that expectation is just that we said, you guys all belong to each other, take care of one another. 
And we didn't try to cater to one age over another. So there might have been a day when we made our big boys watch a little kid movie so that we could all hang out in the den together. But there were also times that we listened to Kendrick Lamar or other hip-hop artists that I would have never wanted to expose my little kids to at such a young age. And we would find the clean version and throw it on in the car and all of us listened to it for hours on end. 
I have no regrets about that because I feel like It has helped them see that there are no favorites and there isn't an age that requires or deserves more attention or affection. [00:21:50] So we might have been giving our eldest, before he got a job, now he's one of the hardest working kids I know and makes all of his own money and makes pretty much all of his own decisions. But before he got to that point, he might have required more money or more investment with sports or equipment or prom tickets or whatever it was. 
But then there were also times when the little girl got a new dress for preschool graduation and everybody ooed and aahed over it and nobody felt left out. So we've tried really hard to do that across the spread. We've tried hard to do one-on-one dates with our kids. We've even recently tried forcing them to go on dates. I say force, they're happy to do it. But expecting them to go on dates with each other and the older kids hanging out with the younger kids by themselves. Or we have a little boy who's nine and he loves our 16-year-old. And so having them interact with one another, playing video games or whatever it may be has been really cool. So that's been neat. 
Another thing I've noticed about raising little kids and big kids together is that I am constantly under a microscope in a way that actually holds me accountable. [00:22:58] So if I want to fly off, like I have anger problems when I'm depressed, when I have anxiety, both of which I've struggled with in the past, they do not manifest themselves in the form of crying or staying in bed all day. 
I have these feelings of rage, of this sense of injustice, like something in our house goes wrong and I feel this thing well up in me that makes me want to scream or throw things. And I haven't, thank God, done those things in a long time. Before counseling and before I started sharing about it publicly, it felt like I struggled with it by myself. Now I feel like God's totally delivered me from a lot of that. 
He has not delivered me from that feeling of the sense of justice. I don't know if you've paid attention to the Enneagram or you follow along with that, but I'm a one on the Enneagram. So there is a right and wrong to every conversation. There are rules to be followed. There are reasons that we have rules in place. At my flesh, I'm a perfectionist. I think that I can earn my way to God and earn my way into right standing with people. And God has had to gently lay me flat on my back time and time again to prove me wrong. [00:24:04] 
But I would say as a parent, I'm very quick to go to the negative. I'm very quick to go to, like, you did this thing wrong and then blow it up into this big "you let me down," or "you're not living up to your potential. That's where my nasty flesh could go. 
So what's been helpful is that having teenagers watch me parent preschoolers has taught me patience in a new way because I know I want my teenagers to be patient with my little kids. I want them to not yell at them or scream at them if they come into their room while they're sleeping in on a Saturday morning or whatever. And so them watching me has helped me think, well, how do I want those big boys to love my little kids and to look at my little kids? Well, I should probably treat them with that same affection and that same level of patience. 
And it goes the same for the other. I know that my little kids, they understand that my big boys have another mom, that they have a quote-unquote real mom, that I'm just their stepmom. And so I have tried very hard to show them that all the kids in our family are equal in my eyes, all the kids in our family have the same amount of love and respect, and affection from me. [00:25:17] 
And so raising kids across the age spectrum has helped me to kind of be on my best behavior. And I don't mean that in a striving, perfectionist, fake way. I mean in that cool way of a check in my spirit the Holy Spirit convicting me and reminding me that, Hey, these kids will remember the way that you treat them, but also they're going to remember the way that you treated their siblings. So what do you want from your heart to spill out of your mouth? And that has been really revolutionary when it comes to being a stepmom, as well as raising kids that are multiple ages. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, Rach, these stories are extremely helpful. Do you have any other examples to share of what you've done well in parenting so that we can all learn from you, too? 
Rach Kincaid: Oh man, you're asking me to brag. I don't like to brag. I can think of things my husband and I have put into place that when other families see our family, they think, Wow, that's interesting or that's different. And I can't help but think that those quirky things that we do actually help our kids grow up in a more well-rounded setting. [00:26:24] 
The first thing I can think of is multi-generational community. We don't really do playdates. We don't really do sleepovers with friends. Instead, perfect example, last week a girl from one of my twins' classrooms asked for my daughter to come over to her house. And I told the mom that that doesn't really fit into our schedule or our setup right now, but would they like to meet for snow cones as a family? So our family and their family went out for snow cones after dinner one night this week. 
And what was cool is that we also brought one of the girls that I've been mentoring, a college grad who's now become one of my best friends. We brought her along with us because she was already over for dinner. So in that hangout, we had age 5 up to age probably 45 with teens and elementary and all sorts of ages in between. And I think my kids are going to get more out of that than they will sitting in a playroom at a classmate's house fighting over a toy for two hours. [00:27:27] 
And so I keep reminding myself, like, this is what the early church looked like. This is what God's idea for community is. Because when we are living in that type of community we're actually embodying the family of God in the way that I think he intended. And so if we were to take that to the extreme, when we're isolating ourselves or we're only doing like peer-to-peer hangouts, or my kids are only hanging out with kids in their own age bracket, then they're actually missing out on the wholeness of what it means to be the body of Christ. So that's been one interesting thing that we've tried. 
Another that I know a lot of families out there care a lot about, and that is multi-ethnic community. So we actually left our church a few years ago in order to really dig into our own local community and really understand what God wanted for our lives by way of diversity. So we have learned all sorts of crazy and painful things when it comes to raising kids in a broken world, including some of our own sin with tokenism, looking for that one person of color to be our friend so that we could say we were doing it right. [00:28:32] 
We've just repented of all that. So we have just smushed our kids up against families that don't look like them in hopes that they can be the next generation to really eradicate the problem of systemic racism and oppression, specifically in our country but also in our churches. 
So that would be another thing I can think of, that we talk a lot about "your friends with brown skin" and "do you know where India is?" and "that's where your friend such and such is from" and things like that. It's just been powerful to watch them at a young age learn that. And they're starting to pay attention when we go into predominantly White spaces. where they know that something's missing. So I would say there's never too young of an age to introduce them to multi-ethnic community, multi-generational community. 
Then the last thing that we do that we're proud of is we make our kids work really hard. So our youngest kids, nine down to five, they are our sole dishwashers now, effective this year. They wash, dry, and put away all of our dishes. We don't own a dishwasher. [00:29:30] All of our kids have to clean their room before they do anything else. 
None of our kids are out there shoveling the chicken poop or doing anything hard or super inconvenient or not fun. They're not vacuuming. They're not scrubbing toilets. But when it comes to taking responsibility for their own belongings, that's what we say: we take care of our own things because we care about our things. 
So if you ate off of that plate, it's your job to wash it, dry it, put it back so that you can eat off of it again. And if you made a mess in your room, then you need to clean it up because it's your stuff and we don't want you to lose it. We don't want you to miss out on the opportunity to have new things because you didn't take care of these things. 
I would say we're pretty strict with that, as well as this idea of work meaning investing in our family so that we don't take electronics to restaurants. We want them to engage with us. We don't allow them to run around wild while we're talking to other adults. 
We want it to be a marriage-centered, family-centered, Jesus-centered family. [00:30:34] And if it's a kid-centered family, then we know things will go awry and things will get knocked off kilter because God has given us tiny humans for us to steward and invest in and disciple. So they can't be running the show. I hope that makes sense. But those are just some of the things that we have noticed have really made a difference in our large family setting. 
Laura Dugger: That is so good. Thank you for sharing. 
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How have you experienced God's grace during transitional periods in your life? 
Rach Kincaid: I would say I have experienced His grace. which, if we look at translations from Greek and scripture and all sorts of good theology background, grace is a gift that we did not deserve. So I try to remember that when I use the phrase "God's grace". [00:31:39] 
But God's grace to me when it comes to transition has always shown up in the tangible form of His faithfulness and His favor. And that would be money coming from places where I did not expect it, friends coming alongside me and offering tangible help, childcare, food, that kind of thing, when I did not expect it. And services, counseling, our church coming alongside us, that kind of thing, where I did not expect it. 
Then I would say, too, that I want to talk about His mercy, because our transitional periods have often been a result of my sin or Rash decision-making or things like that. I left a job that I had to leave because it had become toxic for me, and I felt like I probably should have left it sooner, and God showed up there. 
We left a church, possibly a little bit too late, but we felt like God was stirring on our hearts it was time. [00:32:37] I always joke with people that leaving a church is like breaking up with your boyfriend and then still going to prom with him, because we love the church, we love everybody there, we love the mission, we love Jesus, and the way that Jesus is highlighted and presented there, but we also knew that God was calling us to something else. 
Sometimes there is such a thing as being too faithful and staying too long. And so we've seen transition there, and it was painful. And then I've also had transition with my mental health. So experiencing depression, postpartum depression, anxiety, things like that, and having to transition away from my old life and into a new one. 
Some of those things, I've seen God's mercy, which is basically a pardon, a forgiveness when we didn't deserve it. I've seen Him kind of let me off the hook in places in ways that maybe that wouldn't have happened otherwise. And I know that He loves me because He was willing to step in and show Himself to me. So that's been cool. [00:33:34] 
There's been ways that I could have really damaged my relationship with my kids through my mental health struggles and I feel like God miraculously preserved those relationships. And I feel like it could have been a lot uglier, you know, when people leave one church and go to another, but that transition was just covered and blessed. We had another place to land the Sunday after we left, and that was just such a sweet. 
So it's a mixture of grace and mercy. But I would say I've seen His grace in those tangible ways because... I can give you an example of last year I was struggling... I've gone in and out of different types of depression throughout my adult life. I compare myself to David sometimes when I'm reading the Psalms where things are high and low. 
So far I've never been diagnosed with any type of official depression, but I've just been able to seek out counseling on my own when I knew that things weren't right. And I've been able to see patterns in my life where I feel like God's given me a lot to steward. I tend to be pretty high-capacity. And I want to qualify that by saying that capacity is not a talent or a skill. It doesn't mean that anybody's closer to Jesus or higher up on a platform of ministry. [00:34:43] 
But I tend to be a gal who can run fast and hard and long, carrying a lot of things, and I don't put safeguards in place to help me offload some of those things when it's time or take a break when it's time. So last year I was struggling with that exact situation and was writing about it on a blog and sharing, "I'm going to fight, I'm going to fight, I want to publicly talk about this," and my pastor called my husband, wrote me an email, set up a triage appointment with our care team. And I was in the office of a counselor within a week and they had paid for 75% of my entire counseling bill for 10 weeks of sessions. 
So that would be God's grace. That is a gift that we didn't deserve or we did not earn and that we did not expect. But what's cool is that God blesses us with that when we invest in His kingdom and His family. So I would not have been able to access that resource if I wasn't plugged into the local church, if I wasn't serving. [00:35:45] I say serving and tithing and reading my Bible, not because of the checkoff list that we have to have to be a good church member, but just these spiritual disciplines that God was instilling and teaching in my heart so that I would know His face and His voice when I saw it and when I heard it. When I needed it and I cried out to Him, boom, it was there and I recognized it in the form of my pastor and my church coming alongside me. 
So I would say that's how I've seen God's grace and God's mercy through transitional periods in my life. And it's been neat to be able to identify those things for what they are, and then write them down and bind them to my heart to remember them for the future, because we're pretty much guaranteed that we will go through those things again. Suffering and hardship are guaranteed, but so is God's presence, and that's been a beautiful gift. 
Laura Dugger: I love all of that. My background is in marriage and family therapy, so I'm very excited that you knew and your husband knew and your pastor knew that counseling was such a great option. Maybe that's one of the reasons that you're able to articulate all of this from such a healthy place. [00:36:51] Do you have any other practical things that have helped you come to this healthy place that maybe a listener could try today as well? 
Rach Kincaid: Yeah. I would say reading my Bible regularly has helped. I did not do that as a teenager and young adult. I would say I've been reading my Bible daily for the last five years or so. And that's really blessed me because I can see stories of God trying to love on His kids. And I can also see stories of people screwing up epically, and God not saying, like, I forgive you for your sin. But instead, He's just given them more responsibility. He's called them back onto the team. He's commissioned them to do something. 
I'm thinking of Peter specifically, when Peter denied Jesus three times. Jesus never said, I forgive you, I forgive you, I forgive you three times. He said, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? Then feed my sheep, feed my sheep, feed my sheep, kind of to negate and abolish the sin that Peter had committed and instead say, I'm going to plant my church on you. [00:37:53] 
And that is so powerful to read about a God who loves us so much that it's not just him pulling us out of the muck and the mire and trying to polish us off and say, well, I guess I can try to use this some more. Instead, He's like, are you ready, girl? Get back in the game. And I never knew God to be that kind of God until I started reading the Bible. So I would say that has been really helpful. 
Then the other thing is learning how to confess my sin. That's what I'm dealing with right now. It's just so difficult to look at my husband and say, I intentionally withheld that from you, or I could have called you to apologize when I was snippy earlier and I didn't, or I wanted what I wanted and I wanted to hurt your feelings so I said what I said or whatever the situation is. I've never done that before. 
And now that I'm starting to do that, I feel so exposed in the best way because I know that I've already been found out, I've already been found needy. That's what my best friend Jess always says. Amazing, amazing author. [00:38:51] But what she talks about a lot is that when we go first, when we go humble, when we open ourselves up and we say, "Here it is," then nobody, especially the enemy, has anything on us. Because God's like, "Yeah, I already knew that. I died for that. I sent Jesus to the cross for that."
So that's been really helpful in developing the way that I articulate my struggles. Because a) I'm not saying like, "Look at my mess. Let's all get in here together and talk about our mess." But b) I'm also not lying and saying like, "I've got it all together. Things are tidy." Instead, I'm calling sin what it is. I'm calling brokenness what it is. But I'm also calling hope down on top of it so that people can see both at the same time and so that I can experience both at the same time. 
When I start focusing on Jesus more than my own sin, then suddenly it's not that big of a deal anymore, and it's easier to confess. I would say those two things they sound really old, almost liturgical and strange, but the spiritual disciplines of giving away my time, my money, reading my Bible, confessing my sin to the people that I trust, that I have invited in alongside me, those are the things that have helped me to see that this world isn't all there is, and that I don't have time anymore to fake it or strive or to wallow in the brokenness and stuff that I deal with all the time. [00:40:10] 
So I would say all of that together, just learning how to grow in my relationship with Jesus has helped me learn how to share that relationship with other people in the form of being vulnerable and also hopeful. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, this time has just been so beneficial. How can listeners find you online to connect? 
Rach Kincaid: That's awesome. I have a blog that I don't keep up with on the regular, but I do write in it several times a year. That's RachKincaid.com. And then I'm on Instagram and Twitter and all the fun places, Rach Kincaid. So I'd love to hang out with you guys online. I love, love, love Twitter. That's one of my favorite spots. I'm an original, you know, back in the early 2000s internet kind of girl, so all the old platforms still have my heart. But Instagram is a fun place. 
Then one of the things I love to do is when people send me direct messages, I typically try to get them to email me. So if you send me a DM and you want to chat more, I would love to do that, but I'll probably send you my email address and then we could, you know, be like internet pen pals. [00:41:13] 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's great. Thank you for making yourself available. We're called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question to you today, Rach, what is your savvy sauce? 
Rach Kincaid: Oh my goodness. Okay, so I would say this has nothing to do with Jesus or my relationship with Him, but actually it does because it helps me give more time to it. I love having a capsule wardrobe, having my exact style, hairstyles, shoes, my makeup look, all of that selected in a way that never really changes. So I'm pretty much the same person Sunday through Saturday. 
I would say why that makes me feel like savvy and also a little bit saucy is because I feel like if I spend less time trying to figure out who I am on the outside, then I have more time to really work on who God is making me on the inside. [00:42:12] So I literally only have probably 10 outfits total in my wardrobe. I have a little [armoire?] and I have a tiny little makeup bag. I love Glossier, the incredible cult makeup skincare brand online. And I use pretty much all of that all the time. 
So if I'm going on a date night, I'm going to church, we're going to hang out friends, I try to get dressed every day. I try to do my hair the same two or three hairstyles every day so that I never worry about what I'm going to wear somewhere or how I'm going to look. I feel confident every time I leave the house. I know what looks good on me. 
And those things they kind of make room for me to care about kingdom things that matter more. And so in a way, taking care of my body, taking care of my skin, taking care of my wardrobe, those things do matter so that I can go out into the world and fight in a way that God has created me to. So it's strange to say it, but like the gym routine, what I eat, what I wear, my makeup, my hair, all that feels kind of like part of my armor. And that's been a really cool development over the last three or four years. [00:43:13] 
Laura Dugger: That's so fun. Thank you for sharing. Everything that you've mentioned today has just been dripping with wisdom. So thank you so much for spending time with us. 
Rach Kincaid: Thanks for having me. It's been such a blast. It's been an honor for real. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:44:15] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:45:16] 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:46:16] 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

15 The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at a the Table with Author and International Speaker, Devi Titus

15.  The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Author and International Speaker, Devi Titus
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Psalm 23:5+6 (NKJV) “You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the LORD Forever.” 
 
Devi Titus, wife of Larry Titus, is an international Christian conference speaker and author. She is an award winning communicator with the Washington Press Women’s Association and speaks to multiple thousands annually, both nationally and globally. She first came to the attention of women nationwide in 1978 when she founded and edited VIRTUE magazine, a successful Christian alternative to secular women’s magazines. VIRTUE magazine raised a standard of excellence for women’s lives for 22 years. She is an author and founder of The Mentoring Mansion (now called the TITUS HOME). Married for 54 years, Larry and Devi have two children, six grandchildren, and eleven great grandchildren. She and her husband reside in the Dallas/Ft Worth, TX area and travel extensively worldwide.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Devi’s Website 
Devi's Books:
Home Experience
The Table Experience
When Leaders Live Together
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria  
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:19]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
Today it is my privilege to get to interview Devi Titus. She's an internationally known author and speaker and she has incredible wisdom to share. 
If you've ever wondered why it's so important to gather at the table and why that has such a profound impact on our lives, Stay tuned while Devi unpacks what she calls The Table Principle. Here's our chat. 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Devi. 
Devi Titus: Oh, thank you, Laura. It's such a pleasure to be here. 
Laura Dugger: Well, we're glad you're joining us today. Can you give all of us just a brief snapshot of your life? 
Devi Titus: Well, I am married for 54 years to a wonderful man who was called into ministry as a young boy. [00:01:19] He was in full-time ministry when we married. I was 17 years old, he was 21. We pastored for 37 years as senior pastors, and since 2002, we have developed a missions organization and we work in 24 nations. 
We have two children, we have six grandchildren, we have 10 and the 11th on the way great-grandchildren. So if we refer to the Titus 2 woman in the New Testament where the passage is older women teach younger women, I am a real Titus older woman. 
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible, rich life. Thank you for sharing. Let's even glance further back into your past. How did your own mother model biblical principles? 
Devi Titus: Oh, thank you for asking that. [00:02:19] My mother is 95 years old and she is still very, very active. So my mom, for her generation, was a full-time working mother. We were a lower middle-class income family. Both my mother and father worked. They worked very long hours. 
My father was saved when I was five years old. My mother grew up in a Christian home, recommitted her life to Jesus a few years prior to my father. My mother and father were both biblical examples. We attended church regularly. We were taught to respect authority. What is essential to a Christian life my mother and father lived. 
You know, there's a saying that there's more caught than taught. Of course, they taught us, but the way they lived created a lifestyle within our home of love, of peace, of kindness, of consideration, of hospitality. [00:03:22] And my mother did this working full time as well.
In those days, we attended church probably four times a week: Sunday morning, Sunday night. We had a Tuesday night and a Thursday night. And then if you add a youth meeting to that, we were at church a lot. But they weren't pastors. They were faithful, hard workers and I wanted a home like theirs. I wanted to be a person like her. So that showed me the reality of practical Christian living. 
Laura Dugger: That sounds like an incredible family of origin, and you've just been able to build upon those roots. What I've gathered from the resources I've read or listened to from yours, it sounds like you believe women are intended to be the primary influencers in their home. Is that right? 
Devi Titus: Well, I do. It is a biblical conviction, and it's something that I have drawn from the scripture over the years, but also from observance. [00:04:23] We've pastored as lead pastors for 37 years, and then now we are in different kinds of churches every week in many different nations. 
And what I have observed is that many, many women are married to very ungodly men, and they can raise godly children. But we have seldom seen a godly man married to a very ungodly woman raise godly children. So just practical results. 
Then from biblical references, Psalm 128:3 says, a wife will be a fruitful vine in her house and her children will be like olive shoots around her table. So that is the development of character. The characteristic of an olive shoot is it becomes an olive tree and no storm in life can uproot an olive tree. So whether we work full-time or not, within our home, we are primary influence. [00:05:25] 
Another, Proverbs 12:4 says, "A wife can either be a crown to her husband or as rottenness in his bones." Now, if you ask me, that's the primary influence not just in our home, but within our marriage. We can choose for it to be positive or negative. I could go on and on. 
Another passage, Titus 2:4-5, is a list of seven attributes that we are to transfer from generation to generation older women teaching younger women to love their husband, love their children, to be pure chase. But it says to be keepers of the home which in the Greek means "to guard." So we have the primary influence over the atmosphere and we're assigned... 
Actually, Paul was writing to Titus, a young pastor, to be sure that these Greek women in a very pagan Greek culture who were coming to learn about Christ and commit their life to Christ, remind them to leave the way their culture is and to come back. [00:06:29] It was Hebraic, actually, values. Come back to those values and become the primary influencer within your home. Be the guardian. Because in that time, women had left their homes. They were competing with men, they were leading the businesses in that culture. They were even so successful, they were idolized and the Greeks began making female gods to worship. So we are primary influencers, not just in our home, but in our culture and our society. It's the way God created us. 
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating to hear all of that scripture put together. And just for clarification, do you believe that this just applies then to stay-at-home moms? 
Devi Titus: Oh, absolutely not. We would be in big trouble if that were the case. Look at history. Let's just take American history. The Revolutionary War, for example. We were fighting for our freedom in America and our freedom from England. [00:07:29] And in doing so, all of the men, the professionals, the lawyers, the bakers, the farmers, they all left their professions, saddled a horse and they took off into battle and the women totally ran our nation. They took over all the businesses. They had the duties of the house, the responsibility. Many of them lost their husbands in battle and in war. 
So life brings circumstances that we rise to. I don't think it's ever an argument, should a woman be educated, a professional, or should she stay at home as if we are making a choice one or the other? God designed the home to be the institution where the human heart is formed. So if we are a professional and we work outside of our home, we still come home to a home, a family, if we're married, a husband, or we could be alone. [00:08:32] 
The home is the place that God created for your hearts to really have the security that love and peace brings. God designed that. It doesn't have anything to do with our status in life, our education in life, our financial or social status or whatever our professional titles might be. 
Home is home, and we all have a home. It might be a shack, it might be under a tent or under some tree leaves in some places in the world. But we will find a place to create shelter. Even if it's homeless, they have a home. It's under the bridge. So we all create a home. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for that clarification. I know you've written about women maintaining the sanctity and dignity of their home. So what are some reasons that women, even with the best of intentions, may have unintentionally let some of their other priorities undermine their focus on maintaining that sanctity and dignity of their home? [00:09:43] 
Devi Titus: I think most of it is unintentional instead of intentional, and I really think it's because of a lack of knowledge. Because when we have a conviction about something, it gives us the courage to face what needs to be faced in order to change. But we are living in America two generations of a major, major disintegration of the family. So most women don't even have a paradigm of what dignity even is in her personal life, let alone in her house.
The root word for 'dignity', it actually means 'worth'. So when I talk about restoring the dignity of the home, what I mean is I'm restoring in your mindset the way you think about the home in relationship to the human hearts who live there. They have worth and the home itself has worth or value in relationship to you who live there. [00:10:50]
So I'm educating women to understand that so then we can rise to it. So I think women just live with a lower value of the home because they haven't been taught. We're two generations away from mothers really understanding it herself and being able to transfer that value to her daughters. 
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting. If somebody wants to grow more in this area, you and your daughter have just written an incredible book that does train women on both how and why to make their home a place of love and peace. 
I just love one of your quotes, and it says, "I can determine a person's values by looking at her checkbook, her calendar, and her home order. Regardless of what she claims her values are, the truth is the way she spends her money and time and the manner in which she lives in her home reveal the things that are truly most important to her." [00:11:55] 
I just love that you challenge us to evaluate our true values and then prioritize appropriately. That leads into one of the sections of your book is something that you call the "use what you have" principle. Can you just share what you mean by that? 
Devi Titus: Oh, Laura, you've just asked such wonderful questions. I love that. The "use what you have" principle is birthed out of the text, Matthew 25, beginning at verse 13. Jesus is actually telling His disciples what the kingdom is, and He used a parable. We commonly refer to it as the parable of the talents. 
So He said the kingdom is like a man going on a journey, and He's going to divide his possessions among three different kinds of people, each according to their ability. In the kingdom, Jesus looks at where we are, what is our season in life, He trusts us with responsibility according to our ability. [00:13:01] 
So He never expects things from us that we can't rise to and accomplish. This parable points that out. But the basic principle in the parable is he who is faithful with a few things will become ruler over many things. And as Jesus was telling the story, He said, the master is going to come back and ask you, how did you use what you have?
When we read that story as a parable, we must realize that Jesus actually, although He didn't reveal it, was talking about Himself because He was going to be the master who would go away and then He would trust the responsibility to the next generation to sustain His teachings and the lifestyle that He demonstrated and to pass it on to others. [00:13:59]
So the disciples had a responsibility to use what they had, just like I do. We have houses, we have cars. My father was a simple man. He wasn't educated... or higher educated. He committed his life to Jesus when I was 5 years old. And as soon as he did, he said, "Mom, I want to buy a station wagon." In those days, it was a nine-passenger car. We only had two children. We didn't need it. But he saw the field workers' children in the agriculture area that we lived in California, and he said, "If I don't use my car and drive out to pick up those children, they will never hear about Jesus. That was me when I was a child. I lived in that kind of place. And for me, Jesus Christ was only a curse word. I didn't know He was the Savior. I don't want them to wait until they are an adult like I did. So I used what I had." [00:15:00] 
You know, I tell this story because I had spoken to several thousand women at a conference and the lady waited to speak with me afterwards. And I told this story and she said, "Devi, I loved your message, and the story just touched me so much. I want to ask you a question. Is your father's name Moffett Walker? 
She was a lady about 50 years old. And I said, "Yes." How in the world would you know my dad's name?" She said, "I was one of those children." Then her son was a youth pastor of a huge Bay Area youth group of several thousand a week. It was like a major revival. So here was even a second generation of my father using a simple principle. What he had was a car. He wasn't a preacher, he didn't go to seminary. He was a butcher. But the kingdom is to be built by all of us using what we have. [00:16:02] 
Jesus said, "If you will just give them a cup of cold water in my name, I will be there." So I challenge everybody, instead of complaining what you don't have, look at what you have because Jesus has trusted you with it and He is going to come back and ask you, have you been faithful with a few things because I wanted to give you more. 
But the truth is, if you don't keep one toilet clean, you're not going to have a house with five toilets. You won't keep those clean either. Because sometimes we think, "Oh, if my house was bigger. Oh, if we owned a house and didn't live in an apartment. Oh, if I had more than a studio." No, let's maximize what we have, make it the best possible, steward it, maximize its potential — that's the 'use what you have' principle — be faithful with that, and He will trust you with more. [00:17:03] 
And that's not just physical things. That's influence, it's telling your story. It's every aspect of what He has done for you in your life isn't for self-absorption, it's to be shared. So that's the principle. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. You explain it so well. What an incredible story how that came around full circle. And I think it just illustrates that none of us are exempt from this expectation. 
Devi Titus: No, no. And equipped. Jesus said, each according to their ability. We are equipped. You know what I have found in my personal life? I said I married at 17, so that tells you immediately I didn't go to university. I graduated from high school. And you can kind of see the accomplishments that God has allowed me to rise to. But that didn't come overnight. It came by me writing one three-page magazine article. [00:18:04] And before I wrote the article, I had to have something to write about that was legitimate. 
So it really became me being faithful in my home, serving my husband as a pastor, and just being faithful with each day, maximizing that day and making that day the best it could be, given the circumstance that day brought. 
So sometimes we get tragedy in a day. But we can rise to that tragedy the best we can and then He'll take us through it. He'll meet us there and expand it. I truly believe, for me personally, I think He's even expanded my intellect. I wasn't considered, you know, the honor roll student or that sort of thing. Then I think of the capacity that he has given me, even the thinking capacity, the skill capacity, the creative capacity. None of that was developed as a young woman. It just kept increasing as I was faithful with where I was at the time. But I never had goals to do what I do now. [00:19:19] I was just faithful where I was, and God would trust me with the next thing. 
Laura Dugger: Well, and He's certainly gifted you in so many areas, and definitely teaching is one of those. I remember hearing you speak a while back on the table principle, and it was so impactful. I wasn't even married at the time, but I was able even to apply that immediately to my life. And it continues to now be foundational in our growing family. So would you just elaborate for our listeners what you mean by the table principle? 
Devi Titus: Sure. It was in the year 2000. I had risen by that time, I guess you would call it risen, to a place where I was speaking to large conferences, many thousands. And I had just come home from a big millennial celebration, 4,000 women at a convention center. And instead of coming home exhilarated, thanking God for the opportunity, I was grateful, I came home saddened. [00:20:20] And the conference was fabulous. Nothing could have been better. Phenomenal prayer, spirit, worship, all of the components of a great gathering. 
But the reason I was so dissatisfied, I had just received knowledge or information from the George Barnett group that the divorce rate was higher among church-attending families than non-church-attending families. And that troubled me so much. Larry and I really devoted ourselves to the church. Our churches grew. We were very relational. We saw people's lives transformed, their families strengthened. It was a fruitful season in our life. But there's a lot of sacrifices that you make when you're in ministry, and we made those willingly. 
However, I felt like in the moment that we had wasted our time, like, what are we doing? And then I just sort of in my mind calculated the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were spent on that conference and multiply that times however many there are in a year just in America let alone in the world. [00:21:27] And I just said, God, there's got to be a principle that's in the word that can make a difference. And that's what propelled me to research. 
The Lord brought the word table to my mind. I did a biblical research from the beginning to the end and I discovered that topic that I had never heard a sermon on, there were no books that I could find written on it at the time, it was always spiritualized and yet there was such a practicality about the table with supernatural. 
So simultaneous to that I saw academic research that said, from our top universities, that people who eat at a table five times a week their children are less likely to be on drugs, experiments with sex, to be in depression, commit suicide. And the professionals said we don't know why, we just know it works. Something almost, their quotes, were mystical, magical, supernatural happens at the table. [00:22:29] 
Well, in my biblical research, I thought, If they don't know why, God, you know why. You designed the human heart. So why is it? Why does it matter if we eat meals at a table? In my research, I found that God designed the very first table. This is in Exodus 25. And He designed it actually for the purpose of redemption. 
This was the second piece of furniture in the tabernacle, and it's where the text says, "I want you to make a table," God's talking to Moses, "I want you to set the table with dishes, pitchers, plates, and bowls. And then on that table, I want you to put the bread of the presence."
The bread of the presence was the presence of Christ. And at the table is where the priest did the ritual. He brought the blood of the lamb to the bread of the presence at the table, went through a ritual of purification so he could go into the presence of God on your behalf and your sins would be forgiven. [00:23:29] That was 3,400 years ago. 
So from that point on, with my research, I began thinking of common scriptures that we know. Psalm 23, "He prepares a table for me in the presence of my enemies. Revelations 4 says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I want to come in and eat with you." 
And then I went through many, many, many verses and began seeing that shame is lifted. Mephibosheth, he was... well, that was abandonment, not shame. Mephibosheth was abandoned, he was crippled, his father died, and David said, "Go find him, I have an inheritance to give to him." And then David said, "You will always eat at my table." 
Because money can't replace what abandonment creates. Abandonment… and we are moms abandoning our children within our own homes by being gone from them, leaving them alone, not engaging emotionally with them, texting them from room to room. We're disconnecting instead of connecting. Abandonment always affects self-confidence or self-esteem. And David restored that by saying, "You will always eat at my table." 
We think about Jesus right now, He's preparing for us in eternity. What is He doing? He is preparing the married supper of the Lamb. So, we will sit at a table before Him before we would be at an altar with Him, or we think of bowing before Him, worshiping. No, we're going to dine with Him, eye to eye, face to face, and have conversation. To me, this is so phenomenal. [00:25:21] 
So, in my research, I began connecting the way God developed the human soul. The eye is the entrance to the heart. The table is the only place that we sit eye-to-eye, face-to-face, 42 inches apart, and have a conversation. And that is connection. That creates deeper, more meaningful relationships. And it was God's intention from the design of the first table for it to be a place of redemption. 
Of course, Jesus on the cross became the Lamb of God who takes away our sins so we never have to go through a priest again, but we come to the table with one another, we resolve our problems, we strengthen and encourage each other. 
And then I looked and thought, well, my goodness, where do warring nations, where do they resolve and come to a treaty or an agreement? They always have their peace talks not in the palace parlors, but they have their peace talks at a table. [00:26:28] 
So I believe that the table is truly the family altar. And while we don't have to quote scriptures while we're there We do want to remember that at the Last Supper Jesus broke the bread and took the cup. So once again 1,360 some years later we have Jesus with the cup and the bread or the blood and the bread the symbol of that of His body that would be broken the next day. 
And Here's what he said, "As often as you do this, remember Me." He wasn't referring to a ritual at church once a month or once a week or every day. He said, "As often as you do this..." So I asked you a question: What is "this"? They were eating together a meal again and He said, "I won't be here for your next meals, but every meal that you eat, I want you to remember." 
And He demonstrated redemption. I want you to remember because of what's gonna happen tomorrow with the bread and the blood, with My body, My flesh, and My blood. [00:27:36] There is no problem that you will go through that cannot be resolved. There is no sin you will commit that cannot be forgiven. And together as a family, eye to eye, face to face, I will be there with you at the table. 
So from the beginning of history of redemption until right now, until eternity, at the marriage supper of the lamb, the table will always be significant. Does His presence dwell there? No. His presence now dwells in human hearts. From the cross, we never have to go through a priest. God's presence then moved from the temple in the Holy of Holies to the human hearts, we became His temple. 
So when we sit at a table eye to eye, face to face, heart to heart, with vulnerability and openness, the supernatural presence of God within us in this environment that He created for purity, for redemption, will give us the wisdom, the knowledge, the discernment, the insight that we will need, the miracles that we will need to resolve whatever we're facing. [00:28:53] 
So coming to the table is really essential in even the socialization and character development of children. It's where all character is formed. Children learn how to share, they learn how to be grateful, they learn, of course, how to pray, they learn how to wait their turn, they learn to respect authority, they learn to have conversation if you sit them at the table. 
And it needs to start very young in a high chair with a little table eye-to-eye, face-to-face. Don't trap them in that chair and you go check your email or sit there on your phone and look up every now and then. But instead, eye-to-eye, face-to-face, talk to them and you will begin giving them a sense of significance, security, and love. 
And those are the three essential emotions that every human soul must have satisfied in order to flourish. So the table's essential. There's the principle. [00:29:54] 
Laura Dugger: That is so beautifully said and explained. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A East Peoria. First, the best-kept secret is their chicken for breakfast, which is served Monday through Saturday, 6.30 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. My personal favorite are the chicken minis. Four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
Second, did you know that Chick-fil-A caters? They will deliver and set up all of your food for your event, such as your business meeting or your birthday party. There are even a few menu items that you can only get through catering, including the waffle potato chips and chilled grilled subs. 
Finally, did you know you can skip the line and earn your way toward free food in the process? Just download the free Chick-fil-A app so you can place your order and pay on your mobile device, then bypass the entire line as it's ready for you when you arrive at Chick-fil-A East Peoria. [00:30:59] For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to cfa.org. 
Laura Dugger: I just love that you base all of this on biblical principles as well. From Psalm 23 that you were quoting earlier, I know you've given talks before about that conclusion of that chapter and how that ties into parenting, could you elaborate on that? 
Devi Titus: Yes. Well, the conclusion of Psalm 23 is "surely goodness and mercy..." I love The Living. It says, unfailing love will follow me. The Living says, "...will pursue me" all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So this is a conclusion or a result of what is contained in that chapter. Sometimes some chapters can become so familiar to us we lose the point or the content. [00:32:01] 
This passage is often used to comfort people who are mourning and grieving a loss of a loved one at a funeral or a memorial service. And then we forget to really look at what is it saying. So the desire of every parent, when I complete, I have adult children, I have adult grandchildren. So we have three generations to look at from us. We have five living generations. But surely goodness and mercy will follow them all the days of their life. And my desire is that they will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. When I'm finished raising my family and they live on their own that is the result. 
There are four action steps that are in Psalm 23. These are verbs. "He makes me, He leads me, He restores me and he guides me. So if you look at those four action steps and you look at them through the eyes of parenting, discipline is essential. [00:33:07] 
So there are things in the beginning of developing the character of our children, you just have to make them do. An external discipline eventually creates an internal discipline or self-control. But first you have to control them on the outside before they have the ability to control themselves on the inside. 
And the shepherd knew that. He makes us lie down. He doesn't give us a choice to keep running around in the dry pasture. When He has a green pasture, he said, "I want you here. Do it." And He makes us do it. So look at your parenting and see what are the areas that I'm casual, that I'm permissive in? It doesn't seem to really matter. Yes, it matters. It matters. There are behaviors you have to insist on with your children. You cannot allow them to disrespect. So this means respect people, respect property, and respect authority. [00:34:10] So He makes me. Discipline is essential. 
He leads me. That's training by example. Do what I do. So look at your own life and say, "What are some of my habits that if they were exactly lived out by my children, would I be proud of them? Is this the way I want them to be?" The thing that comes to my mind initially is the way we talk, the tone of voice we use, the insensitivity that we have in the choice of our words. And we just so easily go by our emotions instead of considering: how are my words in this moment when I am feeling a lot of adrenaline pumping, how are my words or the tone of my voice going to translate to the people that I love?
So I think one of the biggest failures we have within our home is really monitoring how we talk to each other. But ask yourself, if my children become men and women who speak like this to their employer, the way I'm speaking to their father, is that going to be okay? [00:35:19] Because I am to lead you in the way you should go. And that means you should be able to exactly follow me. 
Do I keep my word? I want my children to keep my word. So we can't always change every appointment, making excuses. Are they hearing you tell little lies of why you were late? You were late because you left late. You weren't late because of the traffic. So, you know, things like that, it adds up. Leading is example. 
He restores me. So create an atmosphere in your home where failure is not devastation. Failure is a step to success. So if a child fails a test, you studied hard, but they still didn't do well. Restore them. Encourage them. Build them up. Work with them. 
Find out what is the reason after we studied well that they panicked and didn't do well. You knew they knew the answers, but why was it that when they looked at that sheet of paper, they weren't able to put on the paper what they knew? [00:36:23] And restore their confidence. Restore your husband's confidence when he loses his job. Don't heap guilt on them because failure is essential to success. 
And then he guides me. What's the difference in leading and guiding? Some translations repeat the word "leading". I love the separation with the two kinds of words. "To guide" is to instruct. If you were going through a museum and you had a personal guide, they would take you through that museum and they would give you instruction on things you may not know. So they would educate you. 
I think it's important in the environment of our home that we don't bark out orders, give assignments to our children to do something when we've never really shown them how to do it. You're training bad habits. For example, if you require a child to make a bed, they need to be old enough to be able to make that bed well, number one. [00:37:25] Don't give that assignment to a four-year-old because their bed won't be made like you make it. They know it doesn't look like you do. 
But don't affirm them for something that they can see isn't done well. Then you're affirming something that they need to rise to. Wait until they're old enough or age-appropriate, give them the assignment after you have shown them how. So sort of the formula is, you do it, let them watch you. Then you do it, let them do it with you. And then let them do it and you watch them, and then they do it on their own. So that's the step. And that's what guiding does. It's instructing. Here's why we do what we do. 
That forms convictions in each other, and the end result of that is that their character is formed. They're now sensitive to others. They consider others more important than themselves. [00:38:27] They're good, and lovingkindness will follow them. They will be kind and loving to others because you've been kind and loving to them all the days of their life. 
And with this kind of character, just remember, moms, character is formed before spirituality. So character is the soil Jesus was talking about. That when the seed of the Word of God is planted in good soil, it will take root and it will grow. But if the soil is hard, so if the character is hard, if the heart is hard, if it has been wounded and hurt, and they fear, they fear rejection, then the seed of the word of God can be sown in a hard heart, and it'll just grow a little bit, but when a storm in life comes, the word says that the roots didn't go deep, their character wasn't deep, and that word of God will fail. [00:39:25] It'll wither. It'll die. They won't remember it. It will not take root. 
This is really, I think, one of the best parenting chapters in the Bible. I've never heard anyone else teach this passage on parenting as I do. Now others are because I've been able to sow this understanding in them. And I love the fact that this revelation passes on. It's awesome.
Laura Dugger: It is so awesome. You were the first one I heard it from. I just think it's incredible that you've talked about Psalm 23. And as a parenting chapter, it has the table principle in it. 
Devi Titus: It does. 
Laura Dugger: As we go back to the table principle, do you have any practical steps that each of us can take to accept this challenge to prepare our tables and hopefully invite others to dine with us? 
Devi Titus: Oh, I do. Just one of the practical steps is when you unload your dishwasher, instead of putting your dishes back in a cupboard, put them right back on the table. You may not get to the table on that night. It might be two nights away but put the dishes back on the table. The family will know that it is your intention in our busy schedule to come back here. [00:40:41] 
Research says an average of five times a week. We have 21 meals a week. Don't make this legalistic. Every meal doesn't have to be at the table. But you cannot go week after week without connecting. You must come to the table. So that's one quick practical way. 
Another practical thing is if you are a working mom, your children are young, of course, you want to train each child. Everybody, it's a place of participation. If that is home, hopefully he will model it too. You can have a conversation with him. If you're a single mom, at the end of a meal, everybody takes the responsibility to carry their plate to the sink. If they're old enough, they can rinse their own plate, put it in the dishwasher. So everybody's participating in the principle. [00:41:30] 
Then when you sit down to eat, be sure that the atmosphere at the table is a conversational atmosphere. What was the best part of your day, the worst part of your day? Did you get angry or lose it (at what)? And make it okay for them to express it. It is not a place of correction. Remember it is a place of purification and redemption. 
So you can make your corrections other times, even if you hear something at the table that needs to be corrected. They may say something that you don't agree with, then just wait and later say, "You know, I was thinking about what you said at the table, and there's just some input that I want to give you regarding the way you were thinking on that that I might think would help you next time to respond differently. But don't pounce at the table when your children or your family share. 
Another practical thing is utilize food services. Yes, we can have some simple, quick meals in 30 minutes. There are some recipes in my book that are very easy, very simple to assemble, and delicious and easy. [00:42:40] But if you need to stop at a deli on your way home and buy things that are already prepared that you just warm up, if you need to stop and do carry out, come home, put it in serving dishes and serve it at the table. So don't cancel coming to the table because you don't have time to cook. 
The most important thing is eye-to-eye, face-to-face conversation, so be sure that's included. I think it's good to keep the table attractive, keep it changing, depending on the ages of your family, of course. By all means, use colorful paper plates and make it as cute as can be and quick to clean up on those busy nights, lots of homework, or you have a youth group or something to attend at 7, you can do that earlier. Or the night that you have something to attend could be your non-table night. 
But I think preparation is, she prepares her meat... Proverbs says. Proverbs 9:2, She prepares her meat, she mixes her wine, she also sets her table. [00:43:47] So those are just some quick practical things. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, Devi, these principles really are life-changing. What do you think are the best ways to pass these principles along to our children or people that we mentor? 
Devi Titus: Well, of course, if it's children at home, they're going to learn these principles through experience. That's number one. I experienced it, and I learned them without knowing the biblical attachment to the verses, the principle. I learned it by doing it. And I loved it, so I wanted to do it. And it was many years that this was a value to us, but I didn't know why. Now I can articulate it. 
But if you're mentoring someone of the next generation, never had this experience, they're busy, maybe they're young professionals, they have three young kids, their husband is building his career and not home a lot, and you may work shift work where it's really challenging. [00:44:42] I think the most important thing is just to show some simple passages in the scripture that I have shown you to develop a conviction that it's important. Once we have a conviction that something is important, we will be motivated to make it happen. 
So at your table that is prepared, bring that person to have a conversation and let them experience it a while before you really, really teach it. And then unfold it a little at a time so it can be embedded. "Wow, this is real. This is true. We don't do it, but I want to do it." And I encourage them, you know what? If you don't quite believe it or think, oh, that's for some or not for others, but you're struggling with connection in your relationships, just try it and prove it. 
The word can be proven. So try it and prove it and see. Be consistent and see what happens and test it. [00:45:46] I have hundreds, maybe thousands of stories of women who have done that with unbelievable results. 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I'm sure everyone listening is just loving this information that you're sharing. So if they do want to connect further with you or purchase some of your resources to dive deeper into this content, where can they find you? 
Devi Titus: Oh, thank you for asking. My name is Devi, D-E-V as in Victor, or Victorious, I. Titus, T-I-T-U-S. So Devititus.com. And in the store on my website you will see several books. The Home Experience book is a large pictorial coffee table book. How to Make Your Home a Place of Love and Peace. One chapter, the second chapter, includes the Table of Principles. That book is divided into essential principles, vital relationship skills, conflict management, and then practical subjects. 
I also wrote a standalone read book. In other words, it's not a coffee table book. It's a regular book that you read that has all of my research on the table. It's called The Table Experience: Commemorative Edition: Discover What Creates Deeper, More Meaningful Relationships. That book will go into depth with academic professionals, doctors, literacy experts. 
I married our academic research to biblical research to show to you in a case to prove that this is vital, it is important and it mustn't be ignored. And then woven into that text I give you practical ways to do it and tips and you know, some fun things as well. So, Devititus.com. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. I can vouch for it. Owning your book myself and reading through it and sharing with friends, it is beautiful, practical, and helpful. 
Devi Titus: Thank you. 
Laura Dugger: I mean that sincerely. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So, as my final question for you today, Devi, what is your savvy sauce? [00:48:09] 
Devi Titus: My savvy sauce is to make every day special for the person that you love the most. So if that is a husband, just be sure that day doesn't close without doing something small or big that will let him know that he is special to you. 
So how do I do that? Sometimes it's a little note on his mirror after he has gone to bed, or if he loves dark chocolate, it might be a piece of dark chocolate sitting at his sink. It could be a special kind word, especially expressing gratitude. It could be the way I prepare his meal. It can be a small thing, but when you reach beyond yourself and make somebody else feel special, it brings contentment to you during that day, even if you're facing really hard things. So that's my savvy sauce for you. Look outside of yourself and do something special for someone else. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. And it seems that you definitely live this out. And even as you say in your book, I'm going to read a quote from it. [00:49:09] You say, "It has been the mission of my life to restore the dignity, to elevate the sanctity, and to return people to the essential principles of home that allow people to flourish." I just want to say to you, well done, and just encourage you, Devi, that you are a woman of your word, and you're definitely having an impact with that exact mission. So, thank you for sharing that with us today. 
Devi Titus: Oh, Laura, you're so encouraging, and it was a real honor to be able to speak into the hearts and the lives of your listeners. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, my pleasure. 
If you want to enter for your chance to win one of Devi Titus' beautiful coffee table books, titled Home Experience, then make sure you head over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on the "Giveaways" tab for all the information you need to know for how to enter. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? [00:50:09] It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:51:10] 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:52:11] 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Chick-fil-A Wellness Experts, Vasu Thorpe and Leslie Sexton

14. Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Chick-fil-A Wellness Experts, Vasu Thorpe and Leslie Sexton
 
**Transcription Below**
 
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NIV) “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.” 
 
Vasu Thorpe is a Registered Dietitian and Certified Health Education Specialist. She works for the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center, spending most of her time meeting with Chick-fil-A Staff, Operators, and their spouses one on one to help them achieve their personal wellness goals. She enjoys helping her clients learn the foods that give them their best energy while still making room to enjoy foods they love. Vasu completed her undergraduate degree at Louisiana State University and then her Master’s of Public Health at University of Alabama at Birmingham. She currently lives in Birmingham, AL with her husband and 2 year old daughter and is expecting a baby boy in August. 
 
Leslie Sexton is a National Academy of Sports Medicine Certified Personal Trainer & Group Fitness Instructor. She works as an Exercise Specialist and Group Fitness Instructor for the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center. She grew up dancing ballet, jazz, and contemporary, and thus sparked a career as a group fitness instructor. She now enjoys teaching Zumba, Pound, and helping individuals find enjoyment in moving and being physically active. Leslie completed her undergraduate degree at The University of Georgia in Health Promotion and Behavior. She currently lives in Atlanta, GA with her husband and 1 ½ year old son. 
 
Healthy Resources:
Nike Training Club  Has a workout for any fitness level! There's even an option to start a program and you can tailor it to how much time you have and what equipment (if any) you may have access to!
SWORKIT  Offers a mix of workout options and has in-app purchases for even more!
YouTube Channels:
Yoga with Adriene  Offers various yoga workouts for all fitness levels. 
POPSUGAR Fitness  Has easy to follow workout videos, from Barre to Dance, Bodyweight Strengthening, and even short and sweet 10 minute options!
 
Nutrition Calorie Counting Apps:
MyFitnessPal 
Lose It! 
 
 
Favorite Kid Friendly Recipe Websites:
Skinnytaste
Real Mom Nutrition 
 
Holley Grainger - Cleverful Living 
 
Vasu’s meal and recipes on instagram:  @thenutritiousbite 
 
Questions? Have questions for Registered Dietitian, Vasu Thorpe, or Certified Personal Trainer, Leslie Sexton? Email them here.  
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Chick-fil-A Website 
Chick-fil-A App 
 
Truett Cathy's Books:
How Did You Do It, Truett?
Eat Mor Chikin: Inspire More People
It's Better to Build Boys Than Mend Men
Wealth: Is It Worth It?
It's Easier to Succeed Than to Fail
 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Hey friends, we wouldn't be here without our sponsors. If you're interested in sponsoring an episode of The Savvy Sauce, please reach out to us at info@thesavvysauce.com. 
Today I want to say a big thank you to our awesome sponsor, Leman Property Management in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. Make sure you go check them out today online. You can look them up at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and link to all of this in the show notes. Thanks for the sponsorship. 
Today is our final episode for this special Chick-fil-A week and we get to chat with two health and wellness experts, Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe. [00:01:24] 
Leslie is married with one son and she works as an exercise specialist and group fitness instructor for the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center. 
Vasu is married and she has one daughter and one son on the way. She is a registered dietitian and certified health education specialist. She also works with the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center. 
And together, these ladies are going to share helpful ways to incorporate simple changes so we can become the healthiest versions of ourselves. I hope you enjoy. 
Hey, ladies, welcome to The Savvy Sauce. 
Leslie Sexton: Hi, so glad to be here. 
Vasu Thorpe: Hi.
Laura Dugger: Glad to have both of you. And since we have two of you on our interview today, Leslie, let's start with you. Will you tell us a bit about yourself and your current career? 
Leslie Sexton: Absolutely. So I'm an exercise specialist at the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center in Atlanta right now. AI started teaching group fitness classes in college and just found a passion for encouraging people to move more. [00:02:23] 
Eventually, while here at Chick-fil-A Wellness, I became a certified personal trainer. So now I get to help people just find a healthy approach to living a healthy lifestyle. It's something that I just love doing. I've been here for about 10 years and so I've got to build a lot of great relationships along the way and learn a lot too through teaching and personal training as well. 
My biggest reason now is I'm a new mom and I want to pass along these healthy behaviors in the way that my husband and I are living out a healthy lifestyle to our son, Gibson. So that's a little bit about me. 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Thanks for sharing. Vasu, it's your turn. Can you share some about yourself and explain how you're connected to Chick-fil-A as well? 
Vasu Thorpe: Yes. I'm Vasu Thorpe. I'm a wife, mom, and I'm a registered dietitian. I currently work as a dietitian for the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center remotely out of Birmingham, Alabama. So I spend a lot of my time on the phone meeting with operators, staff, and their spouses one-on-one and walking with them through their health journey. [00:03:31] 
At a young age, I kind of saw an interest in nutrition when I saw my mom start to change recipes to help lower my dad's cholesterol. I think a seed was planted then that made me interested in nutrition. So I pursued a degree in nutrition at LSU and then have been a dietician since 2009 and have worked with the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center for the last four years. 
I have a two-year-old daughter, and we're expecting a baby boy in about nine weeks. And just as Leslie shared, we're excited to just share with you our personal stories, but also a little bit of our expertise with our backgrounds in nutrition and exercise. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, I'm sure everybody wants to say congratulations. We're excited for those nine weeks ahead. 
Vasu Thorpe: Thanks. 
Laura Dugger: Some listeners may not associate Chick-fil-A with healthy living. So what are some reasons that make Chick-fil-A a surprisingly healthy choice? 
Vasu Thorpe: So really the U.S. Department of Agriculture, otherwise known as the USDA, recommends that about half of our plate at lunch and dinner is fruits and vegetables, a quarter of it protein, and a quarter of it grains, and then a serving of dairy. [00:04:43] 
And so when you think about those components, the fruits, the vegetables, the protein, the grains, and the dairy, you realize, hey, I can find all of these components at Chick-fil-A to create a well-balanced plate. Some examples would be if you got the grilled nuggets as your protein and then the side salad and the fruit cup as your vegetables and your fruit and the yogurt as your dairy. That's really a well-balanced meal. 
I think a lot of times when we think Chick-fil-A or we think fast food, we think we can't be healthy there. But really Leslie and I spend a lot of our time talking with operators that spend most of their day at Chick-fil-A, showing them how, hey, you can still be healthy and eat Chick-fil-A, which is a lot of times helpful for people to hear when you're on the go. 
Laura Dugger: Well, let's go a little bit broader now. What are some of the best reasons in general to get healthy? 
Vasu Thorpe: You know, a big piece of this is knowing your why. I know that is a little bit of a buzzword these days. [00:05:43] But we always ask people why their health is important to them or why they have the goals that they have before we even get into the nitty-gritty of, hey, what are you eating or what does your exercise look like in this season? We find that it's easy to lose motivation unless you have that why in front of you. 
Currently for me, I know it's important for me to take care of myself well so I can best serve my family and also have a healthy pregnancy. I know I can't take care of others well if I don't take care of myself well. 
And I think as moms and parents, we tend to put everybody else in front of us, but I think it's important to remember that ‘why’. Why is it important that we take care of ourselves? 
And long term for me, my why is I don't want anything that I've done to prevent me from enjoying my family. So 20 years from now if my daughter wants to go on a long hike, I don't want to say no because I haven't taken care of myself well. So that would be number one, like, know your why. [00:06:41] 
Number two, and I know a lot of you that are listening here are parents, your kids can be a great reason to get healthy and they could be a big piece of your ‘why’. For the reason that I shared before, but also Leslie and I spend a lot of time talking with people and realize that a lot of the habits that we have as adults come from what we did growing up as kids. 
For example, if you grew up eating dessert after every meal or after lunch and dinner, then you kind of expect that as an adult. And it's a hard habit to change. So, you know, while these things are fine and there's something good about having dessert after a meal and sharing that with your family, just know that the constant behaviors that you have in your home can really help to change the trajectory of your child's health because what they see is normal when it comes to healthy living.
Leslie, do you have anything to kind of share to that as well? 
Leslie Sexton: Yeah, I can just kind of even piggyback on that. Like I said, I'm a new mom. [00:07:43] Gibson, he's about a year and a half. So it really clicked now that I'm a parent to a toddler. He mimics everything I do. I know I've got watching eyes on me. 
I even remember growing up and watching my mom go on diet after diet and felt a little bit like I should do that too. So I was on my first diet when I was in the second grade. I love my mom dearly and she didn't know what she was doing. She was doing her best. 
And that's all I aim to do and encourage people to do. I mean there are days that I don't take the best care of myself and I know I'm not my best and I get frustrated easily and I just don't feel well but I just kind of draw on those feelings. And then I know if I don't take care of myself I'm not going to be able to give my best to my husband or my son or all the other things that are important to me even outside of my work setting. [00:08:42]  
So I just kind of echo what you're saying, Vasu, and encourage people to change the perspective. "Why do I want to get healthy? What do I need to do?" I think people kind of focus on the habits off the bat, but really look and see what their overall why is, because that's going to keep you motivated when things get tough or when you don't feel like exercising. 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. And then with both of your professional backgrounds, which health questions are you most frequently asked? 
Leslie Sexton: So the question I get most often is, how much exercise do I really need? The American College of Sports Medicine recommends adults get at least 150 minutes of moderate-intensity exercise per week. So this can be met through 30 to 60 minutes of maybe brisk walking or a Zumba class or swimming for five days per week. 
Or you can cut your time, maybe go for 20 to 30 minutes of more vigorous intensity, only three days per week. [00:09:43]  So think of your high-intensity interval training, maybe you're doing some running intervals. You know, everyone has their favorite thing they like to do. 
Then I tell people it's good also to get in at least two days of resistance training. And as parents, if you have younger kids, you're probably picking them up and putting them down throughout the day. So you are getting something in, even if you're not in an actual gym. So rest assured in that. 
So what does this look like in your life? So it really depends on your overall goals. But whether you're just getting started with exercise or it's already part of your healthy lifestyle journey, I personally have learned that something is better than nothing. You create a habit even if it's a couple minutes a day doing something. 
Now, if you have a more sports-specific goal, say you want to run a half marathon, doing something over nothing here and there is probably not going to set you up for success. But if we're talking about overall health and well-being, I want to challenge you to really just kind of tweak your mindset. Instead of focusing on the word exercise, focus on the word movement. [00:10:47] So how much are you moving throughout your day? 
If we look back at the recommendations, say we're aiming for 30 minutes, five days a week of moderate-intensity exercise. And that can look like a 10-minute dance party in the morning with your kiddos, having a good time. And maybe after lunch, it's a 15-minute game of soccer in the backyard. You're running around, you're kicking the ball. 
And then, you know, maybe in the evening, once the kids have gone down, you do a five-minute ab challenge. So you're holding plank for maybe 45 seconds three to four times. I mean you've accumulated 30 minutes in your entire day and you didn't have to go in and find this chunk of time. That can sometimes be the biggest barrier for some of us. 
So again, how much exercise do I really need really depends on your goals. Ideally, you're getting about 30 minutes five days a week, but we've got some other tips coming along for you guys as you figure out what this looks like for you in your day. [00:11:49] 
And then Vasu, you might be able to speak a little bit more on this as well around the nutrition side. 
Vasu Thorpe: Absolutely. So the number one question I get is hands down about the fad diets that are out there. Recently that's probably been the ketogenic diet or intermittent fasting. And while there's medical reasons why those two diets or fad diets can be beneficial, it's not necessarily recommended for the average American. 
So my response typically to people that ask about these fad diets is always, when it comes to nutrition, do what you can do for the rest of your life. We often think we have to start something new with nutrition or diet, but in reality, consistency is key. We want to be able to stay consistent with a few behaviors for the rest of our life. Drinking water, eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, eating consistently throughout the day. [00:12:46] 
I think a lot of times we're looking for a quick fix or something trendy. But really, like I said, when it comes to nutrition, consistency is key. There's no magic pill or weight loss plan. And if there was, then I think Leslie and I wouldn't have the jobs that we have. 
Laura Dugger: Now, what are some of the most common excuses you hear from people about why they choose to neglect their health in both areas of diet and exercise? 
Leslie Sexton: Yeah, so from the exercise side, I get the excuse of "I just don't have enough time" pretty often. As a new parent, I can totally get that, even more so than when I was trying to give advice to moms when I wasn't yet a mom. I think it comes down to being resourceful with our time. 
A couple of practical things I think we can think through, kind of going back to where I shared initially, changing your mindset from "I need to find this chunk of 30 minutes to exercise" to more of how can I move more during my day, even if I'm accumulating movement over the day. [00:13:48] 
So my go-to, if I only have a couple minutes, I'll maybe do one round of 10 push-ups, 10 squats, 10 mountain climbers. I'll rest for 30 seconds, catch my breath, and then I'll go again. And if I only have five to eight minutes, I can still work up a sweat. So, not having this chunk of dedicated time. I think 30 minutes gets in people's heads, but it can be an accumulation of time. 
Something I've enjoyed as a parent, now that Gibson is basically running everywhere, I get him involved in the fun too. We'll go outside, we'll run, we'll play tag, I'll get down and do some push-ups. He's kind of crawling all over me. I'm pretty sure it's comical for passers-by, but I'm making it work for me. 
I'm also going back to what Vasu said. I'm modeling healthy behaviors for him. So he sees Mommy get down and do push-ups. I talk about how Mommy's strong when she does push-ups, and he sees that I'm enjoying my time. [00:14:51] 
Now, you know, if you have multiple children, this may look a little bit different. Or if you have older children, you can get out and let them come up with some activities that you guys get involved in together. Again, it's just establishing those healthy behaviors. 
Then sometimes I just wake up 30 minutes before I know everyone else is because I need a little mommy-focused exercise time or whatever that personal refreshment is for you that you need for your physical and mental health. And just sometimes I got to make it happen before everyone else wakes up. 
But at the end of the day, I don't beat myself up. If I plan to work out, it's okay. I know I can't anticipate every moment of every day or every tantrum or sickness or last minute something that pops up because they happen. So I think at the end of the day, if I can say, you know, I did my best and the best that I can, then I can be good with that and I can move on. [00:15:47] 
So work with what you've got. Every day might look a little bit different and it may not be as traditional as it was when you were solo and had all this time and when you were younger to do a 30-minute, 60-minute workout. And that's okay too. Meet yourself where you're at and give yourself some grace along the way. But definitely get it and use your time and maximize on it. 
I know, Vasu, you may have some tips on the nutrition side as well.
Vasu Thorpe: Yes, I think to Leslie's point, a lot of what I hear is also "I don't have enough time" or "I'm too far gone and nothing's going to help me at this point". I think a lot of this goes back to people thinking that nutrition has to be a big to-do. You know, that it has to be this big plan, this Whole30 diet, this ketogenic diet, you know, I have to rethink everything in my pantry. But really, we just want you to start small and just build consistency and you'll feel your best. 
For me, in busy seasons, I know I can't necessarily get all my fruits and vegetables in, but I do try to drink my water, try to stay consistent with that, and I try to eat healthy snacks between meals. [00:16:54] And that is all I can mentally commit to sometimes in those busy seasons, but I know that those two things will help me have consistent energy throughout the day, but also help me eat appropriate portions when it does come to mealtime. 
Also, if time is an issue, then get your family involved to help you and kill two birds with one stone. Whether that's they're involved in the meal planning or choosing the recipes or the grocery shopping, it can be really fun for kids to be a part of that process. And they're more willing to try out the foods when they're involved. 
So maybe go to the grocery store and have each of your kids pick out one new fruit or vegetable that they want to try that week and pick out a recipe for that and make it together. It may seem daunting at first, but it's a fun way to spend quality time with them, but also to take care of yourself well. 
And then my last tip, and this is what I share with a lot of people because it works for me, is set a timer for meal prep. So all of us have about 15 minutes at some point in the week that we're free or that we're checking social media or Instagram or something and we could be doing something. [00:18:01] Maybe have a better use of our time. 
So set a timer for 15 minutes and maybe cut up as many fruits and vegetables as you can for that week ahead or go ahead and hard boil some eggs. It's amazing what you can do in just a short amount of time, as 15 minutes, when you just dedicate that time to meal prep. And that will help set you up for success for the week ahead. 
Laura Dugger: Those are some awesome practical tips. I want to focus in on one that you mentioned. Maybe we can just cover a few of these common health topics. But you mentioned drinking more water. So, what are some reasons why we should consider doing something as simple as drinking more water?
Vasu Thorpe: So about 50 to 70 percent of your body is made up of water. So, that's number one reason why it's probably the most important thing that we put in. You know, if more than half of your body is made up of it, then it's probably the number one thing that your body needs. [00:19:03] 
The USDA really recommends that you listen to your thirst to determine your water intake. But for my clients and for me, what has really worked is to aim for about half of your body weight in ounces of water. So if somebody's about 150 pounds, they're aiming for about 75 ounces of water. 
And sometimes it's just helpful to have that number or that goal that you're shooting for. And what that looks like is a lot of times keeping a water bottle in front of you. I know days that I'm home with my very active two-year-old, I forget to stay hydrated unless I have a water bottle with me because I'm so focused on taking care of her. So that helps to serve as a reminder. 
Sometimes it's helpful for people to put a little reminder in their phone to hydrate every few hours. But especially in the winter months actually, these upcoming months, I think in the summer it's a little bit more intuitive to stay hydrated but your body needs the same amount of water in the colder months and so I think it's important to make that a number one priority. [00:19:55] 
And you'll feel such a difference in your day. I know people have said that their skin glows more when they're hydrated well or that they're able to eat appropriate portions at their meals because they're hydrated well. There's like thousands of reasons why drinking water is important to our health. But I would say that if that's not something that you're doing consistently right now, put that at the top of your priorities. 
Laura Dugger: Another topic that we hear a lot about is the importance of getting better sleep. Would you all agree with that? 
Leslie Sexton: Yes. I think we can all say when we get a restful night's sleep, we feel our best. And when we don't, we probably feel a little moody the next day. Maybe it's hard to concentrate or focus. I know for me, if I'm going on like five, six hours sleep, I can quickly lose my cool, especially with my family. And that's not what I want to do. I don't want to snap at them. [00:20:52] 
The American Academy of Sleep Medicine states that adults ages 18 to 60 should sleep seven or more hours per night on a regular basis for optimal health. If you're waking up feeling well-rested, then you're probably hitting this. So you might be good here. But if you're waking up, you're feeling groggy... 
I realize this is easier said than done, especially when you have kiddos. It's going to be important, you know, whatever it is for you... say you typically sleep maybe six hours and you're close to that seven-hour mark, that's recommended. You know, don't just go to bed an hour earlier, because that can really throw things off if you're used to going to bed at a certain time. 
Maybe try going to bed 15 minutes earlier and sleeping in 15 minutes more. And then you just increased your overall rest by 30 minutes. And slowly toy with the minutes from there until you're about seven. [00:21:49] 
Now, me, I know I need eight. Like, I can just feel it. There are some nights it happens, and then there are some nights it doesn't. Whether it's I'm just woken up, I can't go to sleep, or my son gets up in the middle of the night. I think it really depends on your season of life. But within your control, you should be going to bed and kind of waking up around the same time each day and set that rhythm for your sleep. And then you're going to feel your best when you wake up. 
Laura Dugger: Let's cover another topic as well. Will you elaborate on the importance of eating more nutritious foods? 
Vasu Thorpe: Yes. We've talked a little bit about fruits and vegetables, but those are definitely key. Getting in plenty of fruits and vegetables is so important because these foods have a lot of fiber, which has tremendous benefits to your body. Fiber helps you lower your cholesterol, helps you stay full, and it stabilizes your blood sugar and so much more. [00:22:44] 
These fruits and vegetables are also important because they contain lots of vitamins and minerals to ensure your immune system stays strong. I think fruits and vegetables need to be key. And I think that's something that even a lot of times as parents our child doesn't like green beans, so we stop eating green beans as a family. Or our child doesn't like broccoli, so we stop offering broccoli. 
But I've heard that it takes almost 15 exposures to a fruit or a vegetable, or any food actually, for a child to even be willing to put it in their mouth. So that's a lot of different exposures. And oftentimes we stop after the second or third exposure. So number one, I'd say keep exposing yourself and your family to different fruits and vegetables. Whether they eat it or not is not your responsibility. I think the big piece there is just exposing your whole family to different fruits and vegetables. 
Number two is protein. I know a lot of you probably have heard how important this is. I feel like it's kind of been the buzzword in the nutrition world over the last several years. [00:23:49] But the reason that protein is so important is because it's vital in helping your body build and repair cells and body tissue. It's a key part in a lot of the processes of your body, so your immune response, the production of hormones, fluid balance, a lot of these things that we're not thinking about on a daily basis, but that need to happen to keep us functioning well. 
I think it's important when we talk about protein to realize, hey, while protein is important, we don't need to eat a huge piece of meat at every meal to see the impact of it on our body. I think I shared just earlier have a source of protein making up about a fourth of your plate. That's not a huge portion of meat. And it could even be something as simple as Greek yogurt or even a plant-based protein such as beans or lentils. It doesn't always have to be a big piece of chicken or meat. [00:24:41] 
The last kind of nutrient or nutritious foods that I would focus on are foods that have healthy fats in them. There was a time, probably when I was in college where people were so afraid of fat. I think everything was fat-free at that time. You'd see fat-free cheese and fat-free chips and, you know, fat-free everything. 
Now more research has come out actually about the importance of some of these unsaturated fats, which are the healthy fats. They really help protect your body against heart disease and they help increase that good cholesterol, that HDL level, which then in turn, you know, helps to become a negative risk factor for heart disease. 
I think the important piece here is trying to start to incorporate more of these healthy fats into your day. Some examples of healthy fats are things like salmon and walnuts and almonds, avocados, using olive oil as your main cooking oil. Incorporating these healthy fats into your meals also helps those meals to be more satisfying. [00:25:41] 
You may be wondering, what does that look like when I'm on the go? And we talked a little bit about what that looks like with the Chick-fil-A menu. But similar to what I shared before, you can get the lean protein in with any of the grilled products. And you have lots of choices for fruits and vegetables with the different salads and the fruit cup. So you can really accomplish incorporating a lot of these foods in even when you're at Chick-fil-A. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. What are some reasons why we all should move more? 
Leslie Sexton: Yeah, this is a great question. Exercise has been shown to help in preventing cardiovascular disease and other preventable diseases like Type 2 diabetes. It can help your risk for osteoporosis. And as women, we are more at risk for osteoporosis than men. You know, generally, if it runs in your family, you have a risk of also having it. 
You know, we can control how much we move, you know, at the end of the day, you've done everything that you can to prevent any kind of disease. I know that's a big part for me. The list is long, unfortunately, for things that I'm at risk for. [00:26:50] And so I know I can choose the healthier option to eat. I can get my best rest. I can move more and exercise and get my heart pumping and strengthen my muscles to do everything that I can do to be the healthiest version of me that I can be. 
I will say when it comes to movement and exercise, just like with nutrition, there are fitness trends. They come and they go. But ultimately, I encourage you to find what you enjoy. You know, if it's step aerobics, then Heck, you know, it's okay if step aerobics is not trendy right now. You go for it. You know, you're more likely to stick with it if you look forward to doing it. 
If you don't enjoy boot camp and you're trying to go to this boot camp class and it's just so hard to go, it's probably because you're not looking forward to it. And just like with what Vasu's mentioned about the way you eat, you want to do that for the long haul and you want to sustain that for your lifetime. 
You know, the trends or what you enjoy may come and go or what you have time for, but you want to be able to move for the rest of your life and get out and walk or hike with your grandkids down the road. [00:28:01] So I encourage really, number one, find what you like to do because you're more likely to stick with it. 
So what are some of these options? Cardio workouts. I mentioned the moderate-intensity cardio goal. In the beginning, you want about 150 minutes per week. This is everything from walking to hiking and swimming and Maybe you enjoy running. 
I like cycling classes right now. They're just fun. I like the social element. And so on Saturdays, my husband knows he's going to watch our son so that I can go get a cycling class in. That's another thing too, you know, getting your spouse on board, working together toward common goals and supporting each other. And it adds that level of accountability. So you're both on the same, on the same page there. I found that to be super helpful. 
Then I've mentioned strength training workouts. [00:28:57] You can do so much with your own body weight. I mentioned that quick go-to that I like to do with push-ups and squats and mountain climbers. You don't need any equipment. You can even find yourself out on the playground with the kids, right? They're playing on the jungle gym and you're doing some tricep dips over there on the side of the jungle gym. Maybe you're doing a little monkey bar action along the way. Again, it doesn't have to be this traditional gym setting. It definitely can, but it does not have to be. 
Really big here at the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center is yoga. So yoga is unique. It's that mind-body approach to fitness where yoga offers this mental and physical connectedness through intentional breathing and you're in various poses throughout. So you'll see the benefits of just slowing down and you'll also enhance your flexibility and strength along the way.
Those are a couple of just the difference between cardio and strength and the mind-body classes. [00:30:00] But at the end of the day you got to find what you enjoy doing so that you're more likely to stick with it. 
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Laura Dugger: Are there any areas of health and wellness that I've neglected to ask you about? 
Vasu Thorpe: Well, I think we can talk a little bit about the mindset behind nutrition and exercise. As Leslie and I have shared, we are on the phone a lot with operators and Chick-fil-A staff and spouses talking about nutrition and exercise. 
But we always remind people that nutrition and exercise are intended for good. [00:31:58] You know, they're intended to make us feel good. They're intended to give us energy for the day. But a lot of times that we feel guilt or stress around nutrition and exercise because maybe we're not doing it to the capacity that we want to, or it just hasn't been a very important piece in a certain season of our life. 
I think it's always just important to remember, hey, nutrition and exercise are intended for good. So anytime it's causing me stress or it's causing me guilt is a time to kind of sit back and reflect on what's realistic for that season ahead. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. So we've covered a broad range. Do you have any practical tips for how we can make progress in any or all of these areas that we've discussed so far? 
Leslie Sexton: Absolutely. So we live in this age of technology, which is great when it comes to resources and ways to track our progress. Many of you might already have a fitness tracker. [00:32:56] Those of us that are driven by numbers and kind of want to know where we stand, there's so many options out there. 
Fitbit is a popular one. I know a number of people have the fitness tracker Watch Duo, right? So the Apple watches, the Garmin, the Polar devices. So this is a great way to see how many steps you're taking. And ideally, you're getting about 10,000 steps a day. That's accumulated, right? Like it's not all at one time. 
A couple of apps that I really enjoy, the Nike Training Club app. It's a free app. It has workouts from 10 minutes to 45 minutes. So no matter how much time you have you have an option to go to? 
Sworkit is another Fitness app. So there's so many great things out there again. I think it comes down to what you enjoy doing ultimately. 
So both Sworkit and Nike Training Club involve cardio and strength. So you can get one workout in that focuses on all of that, which is great. [00:33:56] 
Some of the YouTube channels that I recommend to participants I work with and that I personally enjoy, Yoga with Adrienne is great. She's got everything on there, all sorts of different lengths of time of yoga if that's something that you're kind of wanting to get into or maybe you just need an option for home. 
POPSUGAR Fitness is another one. I love to dance and so they have everything from dance videos to bar videos to your good old boot camp videos. I think anybody can find anything that they're looking for as well. 
Then on the more mindfulness approach, we haven't really talked about slowing down and intentionally breathing as much. I've talked about it a little bit with the yoga classes, but there's a lot of great apps out there like Headspace and Calm that can really help if you're just needing a moment. Maybe you have a couple minutes to yourself. Again, these are just apps that you can download to your device. [00:34:56] 
Some of them even have kind of getting ready for bed experiences. So if you find it's really hard to unwind at the end of the day after the kids are down and the kitchen is clean or whatever you've had to do, the laundry's folded, you're laying in bed and you just can't turn your brain off, they offer a couple of just nice relaxation approaches that can really help you settle down for the end of the day. 
Laura Dugger: Those are great suggestions. We'll definitely link to those in our show notes in case somebody is driving or can't write down all the apps right now. 
Leslie Sexton: And Vasu, you may have a couple for nutrition as well. 
Vasu Thorpe: Yes. MyFitnessPal and Lose It! are two great apps that you can use just to keep yourself accountable and aware of what you're eating throughout the day. I always tell people with both of those apps or any calorie-counting app. You know, you're not going to be perfect with counting your calories unless you're carrying around a gram scale everywhere you go. [00:35:53] 
So really those apps aren't necessarily intended to be perfect calorie counters, but more so just accountability or awareness apps that help you to realize, hey, what did I eat throughout the day? I know with kids, it's hard to even remember what you ate. And so a lot of times, if we're not seeing the progress that we're wanting to see, it can be helpful. 
Then a few websites that I think are helpful for moms or parents in general for recipes and lunchbox ideas are Holley Grainger, Real Mom Nutrition, and Skinnytaste. Those are three that I frequent when I meal plan but also as I'm thinking through "Hey, what are some pool snack ideas for the summertime or what are some cool Christmas treats to make with my kids that are still nutritious?" 
Laura Dugger: Those are great practical tips. Again, we'll put all those in the show notes. And now Vasu, will you walk us through what a healthy day looks like with food? 
Vasu Thorpe: Absolutely. [00:36:53] So ideally we want you within an hour of waking up to have something with high protein in it for breakfast. For me, I love breakfast burritos. So scramble two eggs, add some spinach, salsa, and a sprinkle of cheese, and put it in a whole wheat tortilla. It's a super satisfying breakfast. If you're at Chick-fil-A or you're on the run, grab an egg white grill and a fruit cup. 
Now, some of you may be saying, hey, I really don't have time to make eggs in the morning or make a breakfast burrito. And I think that's totally fine. It could be just that you grab a handful of almonds or a hard-boiled egg, just something within that first hour to kickstart your metabolism and then you can maybe eat something a little bit more satisfying later. 
Then depending on the time between breakfast and lunch, you know, sometimes you may need a snack like a piece of string cheese or an apple and some peanut butter. And for most of us parents, we have those things around at home. 
And then for lunch, I say keep it simple. You know, do a turkey sandwich with carrots and hummus or have some leftovers. If you have some leftover chicken and vegetables and rice, you know, have leftovers for lunch. [00:38:05] Or even make your own little lunchable. You know, put some deli meat, cheese, crackers, some raw vegetables and ranch dip, you know, a little to-go box, and have that on the go. 
After lunch, before dinner, you probably want to have another high-protein snack because at that point it's been more than three or four hours since your last meal. So you may start to feel that energy level dip. And typically in the afternoon is when our kids eat snacks. So that's a great time to eat your own snack. 
Again, that could be nuts, that could be hummus and vegetables, it could be Greek yogurt, it could be another cheese stick. We're just looking for something that has a little bit of protein and that's going to get you until dinner time so that you're not so hungry when you're cooking dinner and feeling like you have the munchies and want to eat everything in your pantry as you're cooking. 
For dinner, I think it goes back to what I shared with you originally. Try to make half your plate fruits and vegetables. Make that really the key point of your dinner meal. [00:39:03] At our house, we love simple meals like, you know, chicken or salmon, potatoes and green beans. But we also love using things like cauliflower rice as a base for making burrito bowls or stuffing zucchini with different toppings as a fun way to get more vegetables in. I can certainly link some of the recipes that we enjoy in our home. 
But for me, really for dinner, I try to just make sure dinner includes a protein, a grain or a starch, and a vegetable. I think it's important when we think about just our day in general that we pay more attention to getting in these food groups than trying to create a big entree or create a big to-do. 
Just ask yourself, hey, what's my protein at this snack? Or what's my fruit or vegetable at this dinner? Try to just make sure that you're covering the components and don't get overwhelmed with trying to make a pot roast every day. 
Another tip as far as nutrition goes is eat what's in season. Usually things that are in season are a little bit cheaper, but they also taste better. [00:40:03] So go to your local farmer's market with your kids and find some fruits and vegetables to try that are in season. 
And like I shared before, get your family involved in making a meal plan for the week. Let them choose the vegetable for each day. And so that will make it a more enjoyable process and they'll look forward to dinner time as well. 
Laura Dugger: I love all these ideas. Thanks for sharing. If you had to sum it up, what is the most important thing each of us can do today to get started? 
Vasu Thorpe: So, so far Leslie and I have shared what our plate should look like, the importance of exercise and water and sleep. But what is the one thing that resonated with you the most, something that is doable yet challenging? 
For me right now, I'm working on consistently getting in my water intake and finding 30 minutes a day to intentionally move. That means I have to look at my calendar ahead of time, communicate with my spouse, and figure out when would work best. [00:41:01] 
So what is that one behavior that we shared today that you said, hey, I think I can work on that. That seems doable in this season. 
Also, when it comes to getting started, just give yourself a lot of grace in this whole process. Some of these habits that you're trying to change, things that you've done your whole life. So it's not going to change overnight. It may not even change over the course of a month. But try to be consistent and just make sure that you're taking steps in the right direction. 
Laura Dugger: We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And ideally, we want to know your most beneficial and practical habits that we can replicate. So, ladies, what is your savvy sauce? 
Leslie Sexton: So, for me, it comes back to just keeping my why in front of me. If I can keep in front of me why it's important to make healthy decisions around nutrition and exercise, then I'm probably going to make the better decision for me. [00:42:00] So I will put it on my calendar because if it's not on my calendar, it's probably not going to happen. 
And specifically for exercise, instead of, you know, quote-unquote, putting in workout, I put it as my why. For me, it's my energy break. Because I know if I don't take time out to sweat a little bit, my energy is going to be a little bit lower than if I hadn't worked out. 
And I have a plan set for the week. If I go in blind and I'm like, hey, whenever time permits itself, I'm going to work out, I'm probably not going to do it because I haven't thought through what am I going to do if I only have 10 minutes, right? Or did I ask my husband if he's cool with keeping the kids or get a sitter for when I want to go to a group fitness class down the road. 
So I think, you know, putting it on my calendar first and foremost and then having a plan of action. And it's okay to have a plan A and a plan B in case plan A falls through. But at the end of the day, if you're not moving, just start moving, right? And if you're moving, see if you can move a little bit more doing what you already do throughout your day. [00:43:06] 
Laura Dugger: I love it. 
Vasu Thorpe: For me, when it comes to nutrition, the filter that I use around making decisions around food is that food should either nourish my body or nourish my soul. The things that we've talked about today is really how food nourishes my body, what makes me feel my best, what gives me my best energy. Sometimes I think it's important to have s'mores in the backyard with your kids, or if you go apple picking, that you make an apple pie with them after because it's a memory that nourishes your soul. So I think that's an important filter to use. Does this food nourish my soul or does this food nourish my body? 
Where we have to be careful with nutrition is when we sneak candy in when no one is looking or eat a bag of chips by ourselves in the car. That is typically not nourishing to our soul or body. To me, thinking through whether food nourishes my body or soul is just a helpful filter to go through. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is awesome. I've never thought of it that way. [00:44:06] Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us. I've learned so much today, and I'm so excited that we all had a chance to chat. So thanks for inspiring each of us to make a move toward a healthier lifestyle, and I wish you both the best. 
Leslie Sexton: Oh, thanks, Laura. It's our pleasure. 
Vasu Thorpe: Thank you for having us. 
Laura Dugger: Hi friends, we wanted to share our love of Chick-fil-A with you, so head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our "Giveaways" tab, where you're going to find more information to enter to win a giveaway for a Chick-fil-A gift card. This is for a limited time only, so head over today. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:45:10] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. [00:46:14] I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:47:21] 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

13 Balancing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage

13. Balancing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Ephesians 4:2 NIV “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.” 
 
Leslie Neslage is the Category Lead of Menu & Packaging for Corporate Chick-fil-A but she will tell you she is first a daughter of God, wife to Stephen, and mother to two children and one dog. Leslie is a passionate speaker with plenty of practical examples of ways to flourish at work and at home. 
 
Leslie’s 5 Important Roles:
Spiritual Being– Follow God’s example in everything you do, live a life filled with love for others
Wife – I am a wife Stephen adores and is excited to come home to at the end of the day
Mom -  I am a faithful Parent my kids want to hug. 
Chick-fil-A Leader – I am a Chick-fil-A Leader who inspires and brings out the best in others
Athlete – I am an athlete who thrives off exercise, clean eating and journaling
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Chick-fil-A Website 
Chick-fil-A App 
 
Truett Cathy's Books:
How Did You Do It, Truett?
Eat Mor Chikin: Inspire More People
It's Better to Build Boys Than Mend Men
Wealth: Is It Worth It?
It's Easier to Succeed Than to Fail
 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. And with over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you. 
 
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship. 
 
Hey everybody! As you already may know, my husband is the owner-operator of our local Chick-fil-A. And because it's a family business, I have worked with him for the past 8 years in various positions, ranging from a front counter cashier to director of HR and marketing in his restaurant. [00:01:17] 
 
There have been multiple Chick-fil-A trainings that I have attended, where Leslie was the instructor. She is approachable, warm, and full of energy and fun. So I reached out to see if she would be willing to join us today. So it is my privilege to get to introduce you to Leslie Neslage. 
 
Hello, Leslie. 
 
Leslie Neslage: Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me today. 
 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. So excited to chat with you. Can you just start off by telling us a little bit more about yourself? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Absolutely. I'm Leslie and I am married to Steven. We have been married for eight years. I'm originally from the Midwest. I grew up in South Dakota and Minnesota, but I've been in the South since 2002. I went to Auburn University, which is where I met my husband, and started at Chick-fil-A in Atlanta in 2006. 
 
We have our sassy minx, Helen. She is two. And last December, we had our son, George. He's my little cherub, I call him. And then we have a labradoodle, Stella, who is our firstborn, but she's not getting quite as much attention right now. [00:02:23] 
 
Laura Dugger: Certainly. So you are in the thick of it. You have kids at home, a great career. And you've mentioned you have five important roles you play in life. Can you just share those and the definitions that you've created? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Absolutely. Several years ago, I started working with a personal coach, Tommy Newberry. He has a group here in Atlanta that he works with as well as clients all over the country. One of the things he really challenged me on was what are the five most important roles you play in life? And these can look different in different seasons. But that really helped me clarify what are the things that I need to say yes to and what are the things that in this season of life, it's just no, I just don't have the hours and I can't. 
 
So mine are number one, spiritual being. A verse that just is near and dear to my heart is Ephesians 4:2, "Follow God's example in everything you do, live a life filled with love for others." [00:03:22] That's something that I really try to keep at the core of who I am is how can I live a life filled with love for others and how can I be a light that is reflecting what God created in the world? Whether I talk about it or whether I just do that through actions. So that's something that really grounds who I am and is the most important thing for me. 
 
After spiritual being it's wife. My marriage is the most important thing to me. God has blessed me tremendously with an unbelievable husband, Steven. I say my role is I'm a wife and my little tagline is I'm a wife that Steven adores and is excited to come home to at the end of the day. 
 
Marriage is hard and it's great and it's fun and it's crazy, but that has to be at the center of our family. So as long as I have my faith, my marriage and my kids, the rest of the world can kind of fall away. But those are the three things that I just can't compromise. [00:04:23] So those are faith, then wife. 
 
And then third is mom. So I'm a faithful parent that my kids want to hug. And faithful, I was really intentional with this. My friend Penny is a children's pastor and she really challenged me when I was getting ready to have my daughter. I kept saying, "Gosh, I just hope I'm a good mom. All I want to do is be a good mom."
 
And she really challenged me. She said, "Leslie, nowhere in the Bible doesn't say be a good mom. God doesn't call you to be a good mom. God calls you to be a faithful parent. That really struck me because for each individual mom or dad or parent, what's important to you could look very different than what's important to someone else. 
 
So examples of that are some people it's really important to nurse. Some people can't. It's just their body doesn't work. Some people they want their kids to eat all organic. I don't cook. So my kids have never had anything organic. [00:05:27] Unless, you know, we happen to be in an organic restaurant, which is few and far between. Some people they are big fan of letting their kids cry it out. Some people never let their kids cry it out. And all of those options are fine. 
 
What Penny really challenged me on was a faithful parent is someone who teaches their child about the Lord, they teach their children to love and respect, and care about others. So literally what I did was I just read verse after verse after verse and made a list of what are the things that faithful parents do. I printed this list and I have it hanging up in my closet. 
 
So at the end of the day, when it's been a long day and my daughter has slammed the door in my face or hit me and said, "No mommy. Move mommy," and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what am I doing?" Well, she's two, that's going to happen. But I can always try to go back to that true north and say, "Am I showing her honor, dignity, and respect? Am I loving my kids? Am I praying for my kids? Am I helping them learn about the Lord? Am I nurturing them? Am I giving them a safe place to come home to? [00:06:34] 
 
If the answer to that is yes, that's the most important thing. So I really want to be a faithful parent that my kids want to hug. And hug is really just more, they feel safe and they feel comfortable. I want my kids to know that they can always ask me anything, that we can talk about anything, and that home is a comfortable place to be. 
 
When they go off to college, I want them to think about what their home experience was like, and I want it to always be safe and a place where they felt they could come home and get a hug. I'm not saying it's always going to be glamorous and perfect, heck no, but I want them to feel that it's safe. 
 
So spiritual, being mom, wife, Chick-fil-A leader. So I've had the privilege of working at Chick-fil-A for 12 years now, which is crazy. I started as an intern and kind of have worked my way up throughout the Chick-fil-A support center, which has been such a blessing in my life. [00:07:28] 
 
But my goal at Chick-fil-A is I want to be a leader who inspires and brings out the best in others. So I've gotten to do that in a variety of different ways: encouraging operators and their team members in the local restaurants, helping teach training classes, and most recently in the menu development department, helping launch and test new items for our restaurants. So it's been a blessing. 
 
Then last but not least is athlete who thrives off of exercise, clean eating and journaling. And I will be honest, right now in this season, this is not totally happening because if any of these... This is the one right now that I'm like, "I can't not have my faith in God. I can't fall short on my husband or my kids and work is critical." 
 
So, athlete, this is something that's super important to me and is more aspirational. Maybe when I get out of the three-month newborn fog I will find time to exercise a little bit more. [00:08:27] 
 
But one way that I really connect and reflect, especially with the Lord is journaling and having quiet time, having prayer time, and journaling. So that's something that, for me, even if it's just five minutes to look at notes that I've written on my iPad or look at posted notes in my closet, that's what I do. So those are my five rules. 
 
Laura Dugger: Those are so good. What's encouraging about that is you've got it clearly laid out, here are five priorities, and yet there's a flexibility built in that we can all relate to that sometimes you weigh out which are most important if one has to go for a season. So I feel like you've just offered us grace with that. 
 
But you mentioned you work with Chick-fil-A at the support center. So what is your favorite part about working for Chick-fil-A? 
 
Leslie Neslage: All of it. I know that sounds cheesy, but it really is. I have been so unbelievably blessed. So I grew up in Minnesota in South Dakota. I never had Chick-fil-A until I went to Auburn. [00:09:26] I knew nothing about this company. I knew nothing about Truett Cathy or the Cathy family or our waffle fries or any of it. 
 
At the end of my college career, my professor, I needed an internship and he was like, "Hey..." My background was television and media relations. And then I realized I did not want to go into that. And he said, "Hey, you should look at Chick-fil-A. They really align with your values." And here you are. And I'm like, "The restaurant company?" And he was like, "Yeah, they're actually awesome." I was like, "Okay."
 
So I started, I applied, I was an intern. And over the course of the last 12 years, I can honestly tell you every aspect of my life is better because of Chick-fil-A and because of the people I get to interact with on a daily basis. 
 
I have incredible parents and great family, but the people that I'm surrounded with here have just really challenged my thoughts and challenged me and given me perspective on "here's some really amazing things to think about in marriage. Here's some really great things to think about in terms of raising kids. Here's some things to think about in terms of community service." [00:10:33] 
 
I just had a coffee with Rodney Bullard who's our vice president of community affairs. He worked for the White House and has this unbelievable background. He went to the Air Force Academy and now he's leading the Chick-fil-A foundation and helping develop scholarship programs for our Chick-fil-A restaurant operators. And it's just like, "Wow. I sit down the hall from you and I can have coffee with you and you're doing these unbelievable things."
 
Our office and our operators have that incredible life. So truly, at the end of the day, if I had to boil it down to one word, it's the people and it's the stories and not just of the support staff of the individual owner-operators who have really touched and changed my life. It's unbelievable. It is a blessing. It is truly a blessing to have the opportunity to sell waffle fries and chicken and milkshakes. 
 
And at first blush, you think, "What? There's no way." [00:11:29] But everything about my life is better because I have the opportunity to connect with the people I do here. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And your character even comes out. We were just walking through the support center a few minutes ago. There was actually a piece of trash on the ground and I noticed that you were walking in front of me and you didn't just pass by it. You bent down, picked it up and threw it away. And even those small examples show what you've been shaped by with Chick-fil-A. 
 
Leslie Neslage: And you know what? If I had taken a different career path I know that I would not be the person I am today. My faith would not be where it is today. The things that I look for in life and in the world would not be what they are today. 
 
I mean, it was funny on my wedding day, believe it or not, my mom and I were having a conversation and she said, "You've turned out to be this amazing person." She's like, "There were years I never thought it was possible." And that's probably because I was a sassy five-year-old, I don't know or when I was 16 I was more concerned with cheerleading than others. [00:12:32] 
 
But I think so much of how I've turned out and the person I've become and the person I'm continuing to become is because of Chick-fil-A. I know it is. 100% it is. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, when you say that, it makes me think, what are some specific stories that come to your mind of how someone at Chick-fil-A has influenced or shaped your life? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh, I have about a thousand. So one of my mentors here is David Salyers. He was the second person hired in the marketing department. I had a coffee with him when I was an intern my second week here, and literally I told him my whole life story. I got in the car and I called my boyfriend, who is now my husband, Steven, and I said, "I think I just made the biggest mistake of my life," or "I'm going to have a lifelong friend." And he's turned out to be a lifelong friend. 
 
But he has given me so many little nuggets of wisdom. So a couple that I'll share with you are marriage. [00:13:30] I was talking to David about marriage and just, you know, investing in your marriage and when to get married. Steve and I dated for five years and David and I sat down and I was like, "I just don't know when I'm ready and I don't want to make a rush decision because my parents got divorced and my husband's parents are divorced and basically everyone in our family except for one of my aunts and uncles and my grandparents are divorced."
 
And David said, "Les, there's no sprint." At the time I was 23 or 24. And he said, "If you and Steven were together until you're 80, it doesn't really matter if you're together for two years, five years, seven years, 10 years. If then you're married until you're 80, enjoy whatever season you're in. Because once you cross through that hurdle, you can't go back. So enjoy the dating phase because then you can't go back. When you're engaged, enjoy the engagement phase and then enjoy the married phase."
 
And that has been life-changing for me because it sort of took this time pressure off. So we dated for five years, we were engaged for a year and a half and we waited six years to have kids. [00:14:33] And every time I would talk with him, he would just say, "Leslie, enjoy it, just slow down and enjoy it." And it was wonderful. 
 
Another thing that David's taught me on a totally opposite front than marriage has so much to do with parenting. He always talks with me about investing in your kids and raising your kids. But one thing that has given me such a piece of heart is he always says, "Leslie, parents take far too much credit and far too much blame for how their children turn out." And it is so true. 
 
He just said your job is to create experiences for your kids to grow and learn and make mistakes and learn how to get back up and persevere. But he kept saying you can't take too much credit for how they turn out. You can't take too much blame. You just have to continuously teach and have teachable moments, spend time with them, have conversations with them. [00:15:31] But at the end of the day, they're going to learn to make choices." 
 
And one of the best things you can do is give your kid an opportunity to have those experiences. And okay, if you want to do this and jump off the couch, you're going to fall. Obviously, don't let them run in the street or anything. That's been a huge help for me. 
 
So those are just two of the things. I mean, I could go on and on. We could do a whole podcast on life lessons learned from Chick-fil-A. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, maybe we should do that at some point as well. But many women can relate to having a family and a career that they love. So what encouragement do you have for those ladies who are listening and they're in your same position? 
 
Leslie Neslage: In some ways, you got to fake it till you make it. I don't know. I mean, I was up at four this morning with one kid, six with the other, and up at seven. But I think the best piece of advice was, again, for one of my friends here at Chick-fil-A, her name is Lindsey Baron. And she told me right before I had Helen, she said, "Leslie, you can have balance. It just doesn't all happen on the same day." [00:16:37]
 
That has been such a weight off my shoulders because I work full time and I travel and my husband works full time and he travels and we have two little kids at home and we have zero family in Atlanta. So God has tremendously blessed us with wonderful friends. My friends, Penny and Donna and a lot of great friends here at Chick-fil-A that I'm like, "Hey, can you pick Helen up today from daycare? I got to take George to the doctor" or vice versa. But I think the thing with balance is you can do it all. You just can't do it all on the same day. And giving yourself grace to realize that. 
 
Last week, for example, I was traveling in Washington, D.C. and I left at four in the morning before my kids got up and I didn't get home until 7:30 at night on Friday night. I left on Thursday morning, got home at 7:30 at night after they both went to bed. And nursing on the road and Lord, that's a whole nother podcast. But I was doing it for work. [00:17:33] 
 
And I had the chance to meet with eight Chick-fil-A operators and spend time with their team members. And I absolutely loved it. And it was awesome. And my husband held down the fort at home and he was on deck and he was great with that. But that day my kids, I didn't get to spend as much time with them. 
 
This week there's... Lord, we've already been to the doctor once this week and it's only Tuesday. I had to come in late. I'm leaving early to get my kids because my son has his four-month checkup. You just kind of have to make it balanced. 
 
Some days your kids are going to be the last one picked up at daycare and some days you're just not going to get to the email or you're just not going to get to the phone call that you need to respond to. And you just have to give yourself grace. 
 
Something that I will say has been super helpful is for me, my accountability partner is my husband, but we'll go on walks or in bed at night when we're talking, I'll just say, "Are we doing okay? Are we totally out of balance?" And there have been seasons in life, actually, a lot before kids where he was like, "Yeah, no more email at night." [00:18:36] Like, "You can't keep doing this." And then there are seasons where he's like, "No, we're totally great." 
 
So just having those candid conversations of this week was a little crazy, but as long as it evens out... I like to think of it in terms of a month, as long as it evens out over the course of a month. A tactical thing, if it's helpful for you or for any moms or parents out there is I'll look at my calendar and I'll kind of make a check like, Okay, this was a big work day. So I put a W on it. If this was a big mom day or family day, I'll put an M on it. And then I'll look at the calendar and I'll say, Okay, this kind of evens out. And if it doesn't, then you really got to reevaluate. 
 
But that's something super tactical for me so that in the thick of it when I'm like, Okay, I have 97 emails in my inbox and I'm sitting in the doctor's office right now because we have our 11th ear infection. It's like, Okay, but I'm the only one who can be Helen's mom right now. Those emails can wait. [00:19:35] Or when Helen's healthy and my husband's on deck, then I can go and travel. And it works. You just make it work. You make it work one day at a time. 
 
Laura Dugger: It's so good. I love that idea. You've given us a few takeaways. The question to ask, first of all, who is our accountability partner. Checking in with them: Are we doing okay? Looking at our calendar, balancing out over a month. These are so good. Do you have any other practical tips for us? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Yes. Okay. So this was also given to me by another Chick-fil-A friend and female coworker, Elizabeth Dixon. When I was pregnant with Helen, we sat down and I'm like, "Okay, how do you do this?" And she was like, "Leslie, outsource everything and anything you can afford that you're not emotionally tied to." That for me was brilliant. 
 
And she really focused on "that you are not emotionally tied to". So she said for her, she's like, "I love cooking meals and I love cooking with my kids and we have an experience and we cook organic and she... I think she made her own baby food. [00:20:39] And I'm like, "Wow. That is so not my thing." I'm like, "I am not that. That is not for me." But that's her thing. 
 
So one thing that my husband and I did after we had Helen before we came back to work is I said, Okay, we've got to outsource some stuff. So we've carved and worked the money out of the budget. So we have someone who comes twice a week to help us do laundry and grocery shopping and cleaning and cooking so that we can come home and at the end of the day we can literally kick our shoes off and sit on the floor and read stories and play with our kids. 
 
I don't have to worry about the laundry or running to the grocery store because at the end of the day in 18 years I will still have laundry, I will still have to go to the grocery store, but I will not have two little babies who want to sit in my lap and read Llama Llama Red Pajama. So, that's what we do now. 
 
And it's funny, when I tell you that I do not cook, I really don't. [00:21:36] And my daughter, we got her a kitchen. I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing, but it's reflective of our life. She's like, "Here, mommy, I'll make you hot dogs." And she opened the refrigerator on her kitchen, put the fake hot dog in the microwave, hit the beep, and then she took it out and put it on a plate. 
 
I'm like, Yeah, that's all you see because all I do is microwave your food. I'm so sorry. But at the end of the day, that's where I come back to. I'm a faithful parent. She's healthy. She knows she's loved. If she's living on microwave hot dogs right now and cheese and pears, then that's what she's eating and it's fine. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great. I love it. 
 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered. [00:22:38] 
 
From efficiency apartments to 4-bedroom units and single-family homes, Leman Property Management has been providing a place for people to call home for nearly 40 years. Whenever you start a search for a rental, start that search with Leman Property Management. With a professional and friendly staff to serve you from the first time you walk in their doors, you won't be disappointed. 
 
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com. And there you can search for their different communities. You can also like them on Facebook or call their leasing office at (309) 346-4159. So moving back to the work side, how did you end up working a corporate job with Chick-fil-A? 
 
Leslie Neslage: So I worked as an intern and then part-time temporary for about a year and a half for an hourly wage and would work with operators and team members helping write their press releases for their community events. [00:23:35] And I absolutely loved it. 
 
My family in Minnesota kept saying, "What are you doing? Where are you working? We have never heard of this chicken restaurant. Are you sure?" My dad especially was like, "I don't know about this." It's like, "Trust me, this is a really good place." And it's not like I could tell him, go down the road and go to Chick-fil-A because in 2006 there weren't any Chick-fil-A's in Minnesota. We were barely in the Midwest. 
 
But I'm so glad that I did because it's shaped who I am and it shaped my life. And I never thought a television degree from Auburn that I would now be helping launch new menu items to our Chick-fil-A restaurants. But Rick, my professor who helped me find Chick-fil-A, would always tell me, "Leslie, what you do first, you don't have to do forever. It could lead to something else. So if you like it and you like the people and you like the work, stay. Don't feel like you have to change. You can make an unbelievable career at Chick-fil-A. It just might not be what you thought it looked like." [00:24:36] So that has been huge. 
 
One of my friends here, Robert McLaughlin, who is a great mentor to me, he led the sponsorships and event marketing department for a long time. He would always say, "Leslie, if you look back at the course of your life, you can see these pinpoints and these pivotal moments, kind of like the dots on your life." And he said, "When you look back at some point, they'll all connect." 
 
So I think for me, just having faith and taking a jump, "Well, I'm going to start at Chick-fil-A as an intern. I don't know anything about the company, but I'm going to give it a shot and we'll see what happens" has been the biggest blessing of my life. I never would have done that had Rick not just said, "What you do first, you don't have to do forever. Give it a try. You never know where it could lead."
 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And maybe somebody is listening right now and they're a college student, but they don't know what they want to do after graduation. Or maybe somebody else has been in their field for years, but they're starting to feel that nudge to look elsewhere. [00:25:37] What other careers are available to them through Chick-fil-A? 
 
Leslie Neslage: What I would say to anyone listening is go and download the Chick-fil-A app on your iPhone or on your Android. Find the closest Chick-fil-A to you and just go ask to talk with the owner operator and say, "Can I have breakfast with you?" or "Can I have coffee with you? Tell me about Chick-fil-A. Tell me about what you do." Because the career opportunities within the restaurant and within the support center side are endless. 
 
We are in the people business. We serve chicken, but it's everything from, you know, I'm in the marketing department but really I'm in many development. We have careers in finance. We have writing. We have content we have to write for our websites and for our communication. We have social media. You can do social media at the restaurant level.
 
Each individual operator a lot of times will hire someone to do marketing for that specific restaurant. So if you're a college student interested in marketing, go talk to your local operator. [00:26:38] It's called marketing director is the program or restaurant marketing director, and you would have opportunities to really have hands-on real-world experience with coordinating and setting up events, leveraging and figuring out how to do social media. 
 
Maybe you're interested in graphic designs. Our local restaurant owners always need graphic design work done. Maybe you're interested in youth and leadership development. That is probably one of the biggest and most important roles a Chick-fil-A restaurant owner-operator plays is developing the people that get to work in their restaurant. 
 
I don't think there's a better career for someone just starting out or who's maybe midway through their career and says, "I gotta make a change." I think the best thing you could do, honestly, is look on your phone, search Chick-fil-A, find a local restaurant operator, call them up. I cannot think of one operator in the chain who would not be willing to talk with you about the career opportunities within the Chick-fil-A restaurant or at the support center. [00:27:41] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great advice and something we could each do today. You also work with healthy menu items. Some of our listeners maybe have never tried Chick-fil-A because they fear it is really unhealthy. Could you just shed some light on that myth? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Yes. Oh my gosh. This is probably one of my favorite myths to debunk because we have so many healthy items. And when you think about healthy, everyone has a different term for healthy. No additives or ingredients. 
 
Our chicken is all-natural, whole breast chicken meat that we hand-bred fresh in the restaurant every single day. You know, we have grilled nuggets for our kids' menu. We have fruit cup. We have three amazing entree salads. We have a cool wrap. We have a superfood side that's broccolini and kale. I think we have the healthiest kids' meal in America. That's one of the things that I know we've talked about. [00:28:39] 
 
There are so many options. So it really determines on what your definition of healthy is. But I can tell you it's fresh ingredients. A lot of our operators get six produce delivery trucks a week. So the same produce, the same tomatoes, the same kale, the same fruit that you would pick up in your local grocery store, our Chick-fil-A operators are getting. The delivery trucks literally go to Publix, they go to Kroger, they go right to Chick-fil-A. 
 
I can tell you that I feel so good about feeding my kids Chick-fil-A, both the grilled nuggets and our pressure-cooked classic nuggets. What I'll do is I'll go into a Chick-fil-A restaurant and a lot of Chick-fil-A restaurants will sell the 30-count nuggets. So I'll buy the 30-count nuggets and then I'll take them home. 
 
I told you I really don't cook. So I'll take them home and I'll put them in individual baggies and I'll put them in the freezer and then I'll pull them out. And that's because I know exactly what I'm giving my daughter and I know all about that chicken and it's whole breast chicken meat that's simply cut up into little nuggets. [00:29:40] There aren't any preformed shapes or anything like that. 
 
A lot of nights too my kids love the yogurt so we'll get a couple Greek yogurts and just put them in the fridge and make them for their lunches the next couple days. There's so many different options. Additionally, when you walk into a Chick-fil-A restaurant, and for me, I've usually got two kids, one on each hip, a stroller, and a diaper bag, the thing that I love the most is they'll help you to your table. So I'll go and order and they'll help me to my table. 
 
Or one of my favorite things is a program that a lot of Chick-fil-A restaurants offer called Parents Valet, where you can order through your app on your phone and just put the instructions in, pull up into the parking spot, and they'll actually bring the food out to you. So that for me... I mean, Lord, that is the biggest blessing because if the drive-thru line is wrapped around, even though our Chick-fil-A drive-thrus are fast, I sometimes don't go through because where our drive-thru is the play place is right there and my daughter absolutely has a meltdown. [00:30:43] Play, play, play, play, play. 
 
So if I can go on the other side and do the parents' valet, they'll deliver the food to the car, then we can go home and plate it up and serve it. But if I go through the drive-through and we don't go in the restaurant, it is a meltdown for two and a half hours. I kid you not. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. And there's even one additional thing that you just keep touching on. If somebody doesn't have the Chick-fil-A app, just tell us a little bit more about that because it's amazing. 
 
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh. Yes. So all you have to do literally is go into your App Store and download the Chick-fil-A app and you can pull up any menu item, the nutrition, the calories. You can order items on the Chick-fil-A app. 
 
So, one of the things that I've historically done is I'll get all the kids in the car, we'll be sitting in the driveway, I'll plug in my order, or I'll plug it in even before we leave the house. And then right when I pull up and park at Chick-fil-A, I'll click "I'm here". [00:31:40] And then that cues the team to start to prepare the order. 
 
And I can get the diaper bags and the strollers and two kids out of the car. I'll walk in and I'll just say, "Hey, I'm Leslie. We're actually going to dine in right over here." And the Chick-fil-A team members will bring it. Helen's already off playing in the play place. But it just makes life so much easier. 
 
When you're in the thick of it... I mean, I feel like we're in the fog right now. No sleep, newborns, diapers, bottles, all of it. Anything that can make your life easier, you want. So for us, the Chick-fil-A app makes our life easier and we are there at least two nights a week. At least two nights a week we go in. We probably go more through the drive-thru or do the parent's valet. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and with that app, so not only do you skip the line, but from a budget standpoint, you eat more chicken. They send you more treats. They keep sending you free items. 
 
Leslie Neslage: Yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny. I think I have multiple treats for breakfast items and dinner items on my phone right now. 
 
Laura Dugger: Which is another benefit. [00:32:47] And you mentioned, I wasn't planning on sharing this, but you mentioned looking up the calorie content. And after our first daughter was born, my husband and I wanted to get more fit together. He was like, "Okay, every plan out there for healthy eating includes grilled chicken. He owns the local Chick-fil-A so we committed to that and we use my fitness pal for a calorie counter you just type in the Chick-fil-A Entree it also has the nutritional value and he lost 40 pounds in a short amount of time just through that more of a Chick-fil-A diet on a regular basis. He didn't have 40 pounds to lose, he already looked amazing, but that was really inspiring to me and also helped me lose the baby weight. 
 
Leslie Neslage: That's exactly what I did. I signed up for Weight Watchers. This is not a plug for Weight Watchers. But in the new system that they're on, protein-grilled chicken is zero points. And it's unbelievable. And fruit is zero points. [00:33:48] So I can go in and get a diet lemonade, 8 or 12 grilled nuggets, and a large fruit cup, and that's zero points. It's amazing. That's how I lost my baby weight, living on Chick-fil-A. 
 
Laura Dugger: Those grilled nuggets are amazing, too. If you're in a hurry, you can just pop those in. 
 
Leslie Neslage: They're great. And they're awesome reheated. If you have to take them home, and like us, literally, it's a struggle to get our daughter to eat at Chick-fil-A because all she wants to do is play in the playground. When we bring her home, it's like, "All right, throw the nuggets back in the microwave, heat them up, keep them in the fridge, serve them the next day, they're totally fine."
 
Laura Dugger: Okay, so we definitely did not talk about any of this ahead of time, but you're telling our life story. That's what we do in the yogurt parfaits. 
 
Leslie Neslage: Yogurt parfaits for breakfast, multiple days a week. Chicken biscuits. We do the 30-count nuggets and bag them up in individual bags. I keep trying the superfood salad. I love it. My daughter doesn't love it yet. But I have actually blended it in a smoothie before and that's been okay. Just take the cherries out. [00:34:49]  
 
Laura Dugger: I'm totally trying that. Love it. So you've mentioned so many ways that Chick-fil-A has had a positive impact on your life. How can Chick-fil-A also have a positive impact on the life of anyone listening today? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh, there's so many opportunities. I think the biggest thing that you could do is talk with your local owner-operator and see what they can do. But I mean, our team members, there are unbelievable opportunities for them with scholarships, with health and wellness programs, with marriage and parenting. We offer windshake and team members get to go to that. And if that's something that operators are willing to support. You know, there's so many different angles. 
 
The operator that owns the restaurant that's closest to me is Jason Bilotti. And a couple of the unbelievable things that he does is he actually really is dedicated to investing in building schools in Niger, Africa, which is the poorest country in Africa. [00:35:49] 
 
So our local Chick-fil-A, they do a family fun run every year, and that's sort of his mission. But you can figure out different ways to get involved. There's so many different avenues within Chick-fil-A that can support every aspect of your life. 
 
Laura Dugger: So true. Like you said, if you talk to any local owner-operator, I know my husband, a few passions that he has, if you're listening and you're in the Midwest or really they're going all over the world now, Midwest food bank feeding the hungriest people on earth and St. Jude is big in our area. And so the impact of you even coming and supporting a Chick-fil-A, knowing where your money is also going to meet needs of others. 
 
There are endless stories when you sit down and talk to these local owner-operators. Are there any others that come to mind? Any stories that you could share?
 
Leslie Neslage: Yes, absolutely. So one of my friends here that owns Chick-fil-A is Mark Reed. [00:36:45] And something that the Atlanta operators have become really passionate about is Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. That's our local children's hospital. And I say local in Atlanta, but it reaches, you know, people from Tennessee, from Alabama, from South Florida, from Savannah, all come to Atlanta to get health care for their children. 
 
And that's one of the hardest things as a parent is seeing when you have a sick kid. And CHOA is unbelievable. We've only been there for fevers and stitches, but they serve a wide variety of needs. And the local Chick-fil-A owners really realized this is something that our community is passionate about. So they did a fundraiser last year with cookies and cookie sales and were able to give almost $200,000 to Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. They're doing it again this year in the fall. 
 
It's just unbelievable to see how people's lives are impacted and the beneficiaries of that. It's just unbelievable. [00:37:44] I know years ago, I think in 2013 or 2014, when the tornadoes went through the Midwest, Chick-fil-A restaurant owner-operators that were not impacted literally opened to their restaurants, started making sandwiches, brought in power strips, plugged in their phones and let people come and charge their phones, let people come, and have water, let people come and have food.
 
There are just so many ways that you can give back. I know of operators who are leading mission trips in Ukraine and in Africa and in South America. And it's just unbelievable how you can give back to not just your local community, but to the world at large. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that and that anyone listening can be a part of that. 
 
Leslie Neslage: Absolutely. Absolutely. 
 
Laura Dugger: So good. Well, as we're wrapping up today, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so we would love to hear your practical tips. [00:38:45] So as our final question today, Leslie, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh, there's so many. I think I shared with you already the calendar. That's one way that I just really look at. Am I in balance? Am I not in balance? So I literally put a W on the calendar for work, an M on the calendar for marriage, and an F on the calendar for family. And I make sure that it's balanced out over the course of a month. 
 
Outsourcing and getting people to help you. I really like iBooks for if you just need something really quick. So I do the You Bible app. And if you're in the middle of the doctor's office, or you've got a break between meetings, I like to look up the app and read the verse of the day. That's a good tip. [00:39:34] 
 
And then something for me, accountability is huge. So I have to have accountability. So I have an app called Momentum and it's a habit tracker app. You can set it up to track anything you want. So if you're trying to drink more water, if you're trying to exercise more. I have it set up to track, did I read my verse of the day? And did I pray for my kids today? And like three other things. And then I just literally at the end of the day, when I'm laying in bed, go in and I track and I'm like, "Did I do this? Did I do this?" 
 
That part of it is sort of robotic, but it forces me to really stop and think, Okay, yes, I am praying specifically for Stephen, for Helen and for George. Or did I exercise today? Uh, no. Oh, well, I'll try again tomorrow. But that's a good way that just really helps me hold myself accountable. And it's super easy. I think it was free. If it wasn't, it was maybe like two bucks. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So good. And Leslie, this has just been so fun to chat with you today. [00:40:34] You are a delight to spend time with. And I'm grateful that you took the time to share your love of Chick-fil-A with us today. So thank you for hanging out with us at The Savvy Sauce. 
 
Leslie Neslage: Thank you so much for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: Hi friends, we wanted to share our love of Chick-fil-A with you, so head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our "Giveaways tab", where you're going to find more information to enter to win a giveaway for a Chick-fil-A gift card. This is for a limited time only, so head over today! 
 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:41:39] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:42:41] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:43:43] 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

12 How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life With Author and Former Vice President at Chick-fil-A, Dee Ann Turner

12. How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life With Author and Former Vice President at Chick-fil-A, Dee Ann Turner
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Mark 9:35 (NIV) “Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.”"
 
Dee Ann Turner recently retired from her role as Vice President of Corporate Talent at Chick-fil-A. She is a wife, mother to 3, and an author. Her passion for people has also led her to travel on mission trips where she seeks individual connection and opportunities to serve. Her book is titled, “It’s My Pleasure: The Impact of Extraordinary Talent and a Compelling Culture.”
 
Dee Ann’s Website 
Connect With Dee Ann on All the Socials @deeannturner
Dee Ann’s Book 
Chick-fil-A Website 
Chick-fil-A App 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
 
Truett Cathy's Books:
How Did You Do It, Truett?
Eat Mor Chikin: Inspire More People
It's Better to Build Boys Than Mend Men
Wealth: Is It Worth It?
It's Easier to Succeed Than to Fail
 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:20]
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. 
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode. 
Today we have the privilege of speaking with Dee Ann Turner. We recorded this episode a while back while she was serving as Vice President of Corporate Talent at Chick-fil-A. She's recently retired after an amazing career. I hope that you enjoy the leadership principles and stories she shares. Here's our chat. 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dee Ann. 
Dee Ann Turner: Thank you so much. It's great to be with you today. 
Laura Dugger: Well, we're so glad to have you. For anyone listening today who doesn't know you yet, can you just give us a quick picture of your life? [00:01:26] 
Dee Ann Turner: Well, most of the time it's on an airplane somewhere these days, but I have a wonderful husband, three grown sons. I'm about to be an empty nester. My last one's headed off to college in the fall. 
Then on the professional side, I've spent over 32 years now with Chick-fil-A in various roles. Spent 30 years of that leading our people function. And for the last two years, I've built and led our sustainability function. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's an incredible resume. A lot of people listening today might be working moms as well So do you have any tips or encouragement to share with them? 
Dee Ann Turner: Actually, you know you learn as you go along. One of the things that I like to tell working moms is at the end of the day, tell yourself, "I did the best I could." We tend to beat up on ourselves and think about all the things. "Well, I didn't get to that or I didn't get to this." But the most important thing is at the end of the day know that you did absolutely the best you can do and that was enough. [00:02:31] 
Then the second thing is to figure out what's important and let the rest go. Sometimes we try to be Wonder Woman and perfect in so many different ways. It is impossible to do it all. And so the only way to be successful at both is to decide what is important in both arenas and not let those balls drop. 
The other stuff, be willing to say, that's just not important today. And of course, with our families, we have that incredible opportunity to raise those children. And I actually feel like that's the biggest responsibility I've been given regardless of other responsibilities in my life, and so they always came first. 
When it came to time, sometimes I had to explain, "Hey, mom has to go this week, I have to travel to this place, but next week I'm going to be able to be off and I'm going to catch both of your baseball games." 
So we had real open conversation to the point that at times I actually would ask them, "What's most important to you this week? [00:03:30] What can I not miss for you?" And that helped a lot to open up that conversation. Because you learn from your children what's important and you also, especially as they become teenagers, you learn what's not important and what was important for me. I realize they're like, "No, mom, you don't need to do that one. But what I'd really like you to do is this."
So just find out what your priorities are and realize you can't do it all. And forgive yourself with the things you miss and recognize that you did the best you could.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good. Thank you for sharing that. And stories in general are so powerful. So we would love to hear the story behind your book, which is titled, It's My Pleasure: The Impact of Extraordinary Talent and a Compelling Culture. Can you just tell us about your journey to publish this great resource? 
Dee Ann Turner: Sure. In 2013, our founder at Chick-fil-A, Truett Cathy, he became ill and for the most part left the business. That was the last year of his life. When he passed away in September 2014, I had begun writing just a series of blog posts on my own personal blog that that was my way of reflecting on the grief of losing him. [00:04:43] 
At the same time, my dad passed away. So these two great business mentors in my life died. And ever since I was a little girl, my way of working that out was to write about it. So before long, I realized that I put together several blog posts and then I was talking about all the things that I had learned from Truett. And I thought, "You know, this might be valuable to the other people in Chick-fil-A." 
My time with Truett was specifically centered around growing and strengthening our culture and also in the area of talent selection and development. Truett believed that people decisions were the most important decisions that an organization could make. And so he constantly reinforced that. Even in the last visit I had with him, having worked for him for nearly 30 years at that point, he was still having that conversation with me.
So what I recognized as he passed away is that it was almost like I had this treasure that he had given and I needed to share it with the rest of the organization. [00:05:47] And I specifically needed to help our leadership and our staff and Chick-fil-A franchisees remember that people decisions are the most important decisions we make and how we had made those over time to be the successful organization that we became under Truett's leadership.
And then the realization to me was that this organization was growing so fast and we were adding restaurants and adding people and so many people, hundreds of thousands of people associated with Chick-fil-A that would never know Truett and what he taught us. So I felt like I had a responsibility to those who came after him for them to know what was important to Truett as well. 
So those two things kind of came together. I started writing and quite honestly, it just poured out of me. I went on a couple of vacations over Christmas and over spring break, and before I knew it, I'd put together this book. So it really almost was by accident that it all came together, but I realized what I had, and I felt like I should share it. [00:06:51] 
So the funny thing about the whole thing was it was written to help our internal audience, and I had no idea it would become so popular among an external audience as well. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is fascinating. I had no idea the backstory behind all of that. It is very apparent that it just poured out of you because the book is incredible. And you're right, it's applicable to people inside or outside the organization. I just wanted to say I'm sorry, that must have been a really tough year losing your dad and Truett at the same time. 
Dee Ann Turner: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It was, but I'm just so grateful for all that I learned from both of them over their lifetime. 
Laura Dugger: Sure. Well, and let's dive into your book a little bit more. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about a few topics and illustrating how they may be practical tools for our listeners. So one thing that you talk about, you give a lot of credit to mentors that you've had at Chick-fil-A. [00:07:49] What are some of those practical lessons that they taught you?
Dee Ann Turner: I think maybe one of the most important lessons that I learned from one of my mentors that I talk about in the book, Jimmy Collins. Jimmy Chick-fil-A's first non-family president and he retired in 2001. But he really, during the course of my career, really took me under his wing, so to speak, and taught me so much about life and about leadership. 
One of the very early lessons he taught me was this. He said, "It's kindness to refuse immediately what you eventually intend to deny." I'll say it again. It's kindness to refuse immediately what you eventually intend to deny. 
So where that played out specifically in my role at the time and what he was teaching me was this whole idea that we have a very extensive, and still do, but extensive selection process to be a franchisee or a staff member. [00:08:48] 
For instance, today we received 30,000 inquiries to be a franchisee, and about 30,000 to be a corporate staff member at Chick-fil-A, and we only select each year about 100 in each of those categories. So you can see the competitiveness. And we spend a lot of time ensuring that we make great decisions. 
But what he was trying to teach me at the time is, obviously, with those kind of numbers, we turn down a lot of people. In fact, I said sometimes my job is really about saying no nicely more than it is about saying yes. And his point there was, you know, if you're going to tell somebody no, tell them quickly, because to drag them along through a long process and tell them no, you know, months into this, which did happen sometimes. But we wanted that to happen as few times as possible. 
So that was one of the life lessons he taught me and I can't tell you how many times that spilled over into other parts of my life. I use the quote a lot and even in parenting. It really alleviates a lot of issues, if you just quickly say no rather than, "Well, let me ask your dad and let me think about it a while and let me sleep on it. I don't know yet." [00:09:59] 
I've been through all that with teenagers. I realized that if I use that principle to say no quickly, then that was a lot kinder to them, and their expectations weren't raised and then deflated when I eventually said no to whatever it is that they wanted to do. 
Jimmy taught me another lesson that still is so relevant in my work in leading the group that I lead now, which is, he said, "It's easier to restrain mustangs than to kick mules. It's easier to restrain mustangs than to kick mules." 
What he meant by that is go ahead and select that person who's smarter than you, who has all this talent. You know, they may get ahead of you sometimes and you may be saying, "Hey, hang on, hang on." But isn't that so much better than somebody that doesn't have initiative? He doesn't want to get in there and do things and you're constantly prodding and pushing and trying to move them along." So I thought that was quite a bit of wisdom. [00:10:56] 
Then the last thing I'd share with you, and I'm kind of camped out on Jimmy as my mentor, but the third thing I would say about him from a servant leadership standpoint, I tell a story, and it's my pleasure, about Jimmy demonstrating this in so many different ways. But the thing that's just never left me, the image I have of him, even though he retired in 2001, is that, at the time he retired, he was the 65-year-old president of a $1 billion company. 
One of the things he did every single day was he stopped his car on the exit ramp where our corporate headquarters is located, and he picked up the trash on that exit ramp. Now, that trash and being on that exit ramp was not the responsibility of Chick-fil-A. It was the responsibility of the local municipality. But because they didn't really do their job well, Jimmy decided to do it for them. [00:11:46] 
But he did it because he wanted guests who came to Chick-fil-A to have a remarkable experience from the time they got off the highway till they got to our front door about two and a half miles later. So he would pick up the trash. And you know, he never said anything. He just got out and did it. And he took it to the office and he threw it away. 
He demonstrated what servant leadership was. It wasn't long that our grounds maintenance staff realized that maybe it's not a good idea for the 65-year-old president of a billion-dollar company to be out on the side of the road picking up trash that they began doing that. And you know here it is 17 years later and our grounds maintenance staff still keeps that exit ramp clean. 
Now, unless they're listening to this podcast or they read it's my pleasure, I'm not sure they still know why they do it and who set the original example. But that's what servant leadership can do. When the leader demonstrates at that level what's expected and how to create a remarkable experience like that, then others learn by watching them, not hearing them, how to do it themselves. [00:12:51] 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And the impact of that that years later people are following in these footsteps Something else you discuss is the employee value promise. Can you just elaborate on that? 
Dee Ann Turner: You know, it's a way of saying what you get for what you give. Some companies call it a value proposition. I don't really like that terminology because a proposition just sounds like an offer or a business transaction. A promise is a commitment. 
So at Chick-fil-A, when I think about the value promise, I think about the commitment that employees have to the organization and the organization has to employees. So this is what it looks like at Chick-fil-A. First of all, we talk about caring more. 
We ask our employees to care a lot for Chick-fil-A guests. Regardless of the level they are in the organization, whether they're a franchisee or whether they're a corporate staff member, or team member, the expectation is that guests will be well cared for, even to the point of going above and beyond what's expected. [00:13:59] 
In return, we try to demonstrate care for Chick-fil-A employees in a number of ways. That began with Truett and back to his original restaurant when he was helping one of his very first employees fund his college education through a jar that was on the counter in his first restaurant. It was in the 1950s. 
And that first helping of that young man to get his college education turned into a scholarship program that just this last year alone Chick-fil-A gave away nearly $9 million to deserving young people to pursue their college education. 
So, you know, we expect a lot of hard work. We expect at every level of our organization to serve guests, to implement what we call second-mile service, go above and beyond what's expected. But in return, we care about people deeply and try to create an experience even for them that's remarkable as an employee. [00:14:55] 
The second part of that is to serve better. We select everybody who comes to Chick-fil-A... One of the reasons they're selected in whatever role they have is because they have a heart for service. We are in the service business. Sure, we make a great chicken sandwich, but what it's really about is how that sandwich gets served. 
The sandwich can be duplicated almost. I haven't found one that's exactly like it, but people can serve a chicken sandwich that's prepared similarly to ours. But the service is really the differentiator and it's the competitive advantage. 
But in return, we also serve those that are part of the Chick-fil-A family. In fact, at our organization, the higher position you hold, the more you're expected to serve. Quickly, just one of my favorite stories about that. I had been with the organization just a few months, I was a very young person. I was right out of college. I was an hourly admin in our corporate office. [00:15:53] 
My husband and I were on our first annual convention that Chick-fil-A has and I got on the plane and our seats were in first class. And I sat there as Dan Cathy, now our CEO and at the time executive vice president for the company, and his family walked by to sit in the back of the plane. And that's what Truett taught us, was that we're there to serve others. So we expect those associated with Chick-fil-A to serve others, and in turn we serve each other. 
Then lastly, the part that really is meaningful or most meaningful to me is the impact lives part that we focus on. And that's part of our corporate purpose to be a positive influence on all we come in contact with. That's really what's kept me at Chick-fil-A all these years. And I think that's why most people are a part of the organization. [00:16:40] 
I mean, while it's a great sandwich, again, it's certainly not motivation to spend your entire adult career in one organization. What has been done because of the sales of that Chick-fil-A sandwich, I think is what continues to attract people and retain people in the organization. 
Truett used to say, we're not in the chicken business, we're in the people business. And even more than that, especially the way he lived his life, I think we're in the influence business. And we have that opportunity and we have this platform to impact lives. 
So while a team member is serving a chicken sandwich somewhere right now while we talk to a customer, the impact of what that sale does and the lives that are touched all over the world because of the work we do, that's to me the most important part of our value promise, our employee value promise, is that I think our lives are impacted by being associated with Chick-fil-A and we have the opportunity to impact the lives of others. 
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is compelling to get to be a part of something significant beyond yourself. [00:17:44] 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: You also discuss a person's calling, and I think that everyone listening will identify with this. So how do you know what a calling is and what it is not? 
Dee Ann Turner: Well, I don't think calling is just a job. In fact, I like to say that a job is just listed on your resume, but a calling echoes in your epitaph. A calling is that thing that you were made to do. Sometimes we find that early in life. Even my example of writing is a great way. I feel a calling to that. And I felt that calling from the time I was eight years old. That was something I always wanted to do. But, you know, I won't say how old, but much, much later, many decades later, before I really had the opportunity to fulfill that calling. 
So sometimes we have to do what... you know, I like to say, sometimes we have to do what God gave us to do before we can do what God made us to do. But a calling is that thing that it gets you out of bed in the morning, and it's not just the alarm clock or a cup of coffee, but it's really that thing that sizzles in your soul, resonates in your heart. You got to go do it no matter what. That's a calling. Anything less than that most oftentimes is just a job, it's just a way to make a living. But a calling is the way to make a life. 
I think that when people are able to discover that and discover what they were really made to do, then that's when they have the best opportunity to have that impact that we talked about. [00:20:30] 
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. I'm going to read just a short little quote that I loved in your book. And if anybody has your book, it's on page 79. And it simply says, when it talks about a calling, "It creates an inner drive and restlessness when we live outside of it and peace when we are embracing it and living inside of it." That was so good. I just love that you shared that. 
Dee Ann Turner: Oh, thank you. Oh, I actually like that quote too. I'm sorry I didn't think of it when I was sharing it. But yeah, yeah. And that's exactly how I felt about my own calling and was able to write about it for that reason. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's great. You mentioned in a different part of your book that you found your calling was to help others find their calling. So if a listener had the opportunity, let's pretend they're sitting down with you today wanting to apply these principles to enrich their own life or their business or their relationship, where would you recommend they start? [00:21:29] 
Dee Ann Turner: I think you have to start with an examination of really understanding obviously who you are, what your strengths are, what your capabilities are, what your greatest desire is. And write those down. And evaluate how you're spending the time in your life and does it match up with that? I mean, even your time away from work, how do you get to live out those principles that are important to you and use your strengths on a daily basis? Because if you're not pursuing that, then you're drifting. 
So finding your calling, finding out what you're supposed to do, requires tremendous intentionality and focus. And like I said, it can be different at different times in life. For me, in talking about helping other people find their path, my experience of that was actually, I thought I was called into full-time ministry when I came out of college. I thought I had really blown it. I was like, "I was supposed to do this." [00:22:31] 
And then it was one day, I mean, literally somebody left my office and we had had a discussion... Actually what happened is I had told them that what they wanted to do with Chick-fil-A, be a franchisee, was not a fit for them. I said, "This is not going to fulfill your life to do this." And I had reasons that I felt that way. 
They walked out and... we talked about other things they might want to do while they were in my office. And that was when it hit me. It's like, well, I am doing what I was called to do, which is really helping people find their path, whatever it may be. And sometimes it was helping them find a path within Chick-fil-A and sometimes it was quite honestly helping them find a path somewhere else. But I felt truly that that was what I was called to do. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that makes sense. And you do it so well. And circling back to the mentoring topic, it seems like you just naturally pour out so much and mentor your team along the way. And you had this amazing privilege to have Truett Cathy as one of your mentors. Could you just share any stories that come to mind? [00:23:33] Because a lot of people don't know about him and haven't experienced him in the same way you have.
Dee Ann Turner: Sure. Well, you know, you say that and the funny thing is so many people were impacted personally by Truett's life. I mean, the people at Chick-fil-A, I was just one of many that had that opportunity, as well as when I think about his 13 foster care homes that he established. He didn't just have children in foster care. I mean, he was their grandpa. They called him Grandpa. He got custody rights for all these children and gave them a life that they wouldn't have otherwise had. He completely paid for their educations, just really raised them as his own. 
And the customers and the interactions he had with Chick-fil-A team members and their restaurants, his influence, the reach of it was so far. So yes, I mean, he was one of my mentors and I was fortunate enough to be mentored but literally hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of people that had that experience. [00:24:34] 
When I think of stories that were most meaningful to me with Truett, I alluded to this a little earlier, but I think about the last time I was with Truett. I mentioned that he got sick in 2013. At the time he was 92 years old, so he knew that time was limited. And so during that last year before he got sick, he would call me over to his office to talk about something. 
And before I left, he would look at me and he would say, "Now Dee Ann, remember people decisions are the very most important decisions we make." And the first time he did this that year, I have to say I was a little bit like, Okay, doesn't he know I know that? I've worked for him for nearly 30 years. We've been doing this a long time together. Why would he say that to me?" So I thought, "Well, you know, he's getting a little older, so he's repeating things."
The next month I went back about another issue, and before I left, he did it again. He looked at me very seriously and sternly and said, "Dee Ann, don't forget, people decisions are the most important decisions that we made." [00:25:36] 
Well, this went on a couple more times and I was a little slow on the tape on this, but by the fourth time I realized exactly what he was doing. And what he was doing is making sure that I understood this, that I would not forget how important he thought this was to the success of Chick-fil-A. 
Again, at the time that he passed away, I mean, we had grown tremendously just in the last few years. We were around a $6 billion business at that time and growing really quickly. He knew how important these things were. Well, I didn't think much about that again until right before Truett passed away. And there were a group of leaders that gathered late one Friday afternoon, or the Friday night before he died the next week. And we were telling Truett stories, and we were recalling our last times with him. 
So I shared the story that I just shared with you about what he had done and other people in the room mentioned similar things that Truett had told them. [00:26:35] And we realized how intentional he'd been right up to the end, 92 years old. And even though we had worked with him for decades, he made sure we knew what was important to him about the business. And what a lesson that was. 
You know, sometimes I know I do this even as a leader. It's like, well, I've already told them that. Or I told them that twice. Why would I need to tell them that again? Here he demonstrated with people he trusted that he'd worked with for decades, he demonstrated that he still had principles that were significantly important and he wanted to make sure we remember. 
So being the mentor that taught me how to mentor is probably the most important lesson he taught me. And that's that: say it, say it again, tell them what you said, and then most certainly demonstrate by your actions what you said. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing all of those stories. I feel like that resonates with each of us and I feel like it can apply either to our business or, like you mentioned, our parenting. [00:27:39] If a listener is curious and looking up your book, where can they find your resource? 
Dee Ann Turner: Well, I have a little bit of sad news about that right now. Currently, the hard copy is out of print. My publisher went out of business a while back and we had run out of copies, but it is in the process of being republished. So I'm hoping later this year, it'll be back on sale on Amazon. 
I have been told that there are some other places online that you can locate it. It is on Kindle in audio. Again, hopefully it'll create pent-up demand, and when it's re-released later this year people will be able to get the hard copy of it. 
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. You're also on RightNow Media. 
Dee Ann Turner: Yes. 
Laura Dugger: If anyone has access to that. 
Dee Ann Turner: Yes, RightNow Media has the whole video series about the book, so that's a great way. And then follow me on my website, at Deeannturner.com. And then also on Facebook is the author page, Dee Ann Turner, on Instagram @Deeannturner, and on Twitter @Deeanneturner. [00:28:46] So you can get all the updates on the latest of what I'm writing about and learning on my leadership journey that I'd love to share with all of your listeners as well. 
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes. So if anybody's driving right now, they can't write all those handles down, we will have it easy for them to come find. 
We're called The Savvy Sauce here for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Dee Ann Turner: My savvy sauce is to focus on one day at a time. It's so easy for us to get 5, 10, 20 years out, and I used to do that, especially as a young person. I had a 20-year plan, I had a life plan. And then I got to the point that I realized that to be the best leader I could be, and I'm not talking about excusing yourself from good planning practices, but to be the best leader, to be the best wife, to be the best mom, I need to be in the here and now. 
So I start every day before everybody else rises in my house. I focus on what my day looks like. I spend my quiet time. I center myself to be ready to meet the rest of the world and to be present in the moment of today. And that's my savvy sauce. [00:30:11] 
Laura Dugger: I love it, and a perfect place to end with such wisdom. Thank you for sharing your leadership principles and thank you for living those out every day as you serve others, Dee Ann. It's been a pleasure speaking with you today. 
Dee Ann Turner: It's been completely my pleasure and I appreciate you having me today, Laura. 
Laura Dugger: Hi Friends. We wanted to share our love of Chick-fil-A with you. So head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our giveaway tab, where you are gonna find more information to enter to win a giveaway for a Chick-fil-A gift card. This is for a limited time only, so head over today. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:31:19] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:32:21] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:33:24] 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

11 Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Chick-fil-A Franchise Owner/Operator, Mark Dugger

11. Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Chick-fil-A Franchise Owner/Operator, Mark Dugger
 
Proverbs 22:1 (KJV) “A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favor rather than silver and gold ” 
 
Mark Dugger is originally from Atlanta, GA, and he grew up with an affinity for Chick-fil-A! He graduated from Georgia Tech with an Industrial Engineering degree and began his career as a business consultant with IBM.  In 2009, he took a leap of faith, left IBM, and started as a team member at a local Chick-fil-A restaurant to learn the business from the ground up in hopes of becoming an Owner/Operator.  After three years and at the age of 30, he was selected to own his first franchise in South Bend, Indiana.  After two years in Indiana, he was then given the opportunity to open a brand new restaurant in East Peoria, IL in 2016.  Mark says "I love what I get to do: stewarding a business that impacts our local community and develops leaders.” He is married to his wife, Laura, and they now have three daughters. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Chick-fil-A Website 
Chick-fil-A App 
Business Article Mark Referenced 
Mark’s Chick-fil-A 
Truett Cathy's Books:
How Did You Do It, Truett?
Eat Mor Chikin: Inspire More People
It's Better to Build Boys Than Mend Men
Wealth: Is It Worth It?
It's Easier to Succeed Than to Fail
 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

10 How to Align Your Finances With Your Values With Certified Financial Planner and Speaker, Natalie Taylor

10. How to Align Your Finances With Your Values With Certified Financial Planner and Speaker, Natalie Taylor
 
**Transcription Below**
 
2 Corinthians 9:6 (NIV) “Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.” 
 
Natalie Taylor is a Certified Financial Planner, Professional and Behavioral Financial Advisor who is passionate about helping people cultivate a plan for their finances based on their values and goals so they can not only make progress, but find confidence, balance, and peace along the way. Frequently quoted in major publications such as the Huffington Post, Forbes, Business Insider and Lifehacker, Natalie draws on over 13 years of comprehensive financial planning experience and a decade of professional speaking to share advice that works in real life, not just on paper.
 
Natalie’s Website 
Natalie's Value Toolkit
Value Sort 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:24]
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure to put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.
Hey, everybody. I'm so thrilled that I get to introduce you to my friend today, Natalie Taylor. Natalie is a certified financial planner, and I think you're going to enjoy her fresh take on value-based financial planning. 
Today, she's going to give us a new perspective on being financially fit. [00:01:16] You can find her online at Natalieanntaylor.com. That's Ann with no E. I hope you enjoy our chat. 
Hi, Natalie. 
Natalie Taylor: Hi, Laura. How are you? 
Laura Dugger: Great. How are you doing? 
Natalie Taylor: I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. 
Laura Dugger: We are so honored to have you on the show today. If someone out there listening doesn't know you yet, can you just give us a current glimpse into your life? 
Natalie Taylor: Sure. I live in Santa Barbara. I am a financial planner, a CFP. I've been a financial planner for 13 years. The first eight years I was in private practice down in San Diego in California and for the last five years, I've been working for a startup in the financial services space aimed at making financial planning affordable and accessible for, I would say, the 99% for all the people who typically the financial services industry doesn't aim towards. So that's me. 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. And then even looking back in time, what age were you when you knew that you wanted to work in something finance-related? [00:02:18] 
Natalie Taylor: You know, I honestly didn't know what a financial planner was until I was one when I was 23. So that's when I started in this line of work. It really has been a calling for me, but I honestly didn't know what it was. I've always been good at math. I always tracked my savings. I'm just wired that way. 
I was the bank for my sister because she would spend her allowance and I would lend money to her when she ran out. So I've always been financially minded but I just never really knew about this career path. So honestly, it wasn't until I became one that I really knew this is what I wanted to do. 
And I would say that all of those things that sound like they make sense for reasons that I'm a good financial planner, that I love math, that I'm savings-minded, those really aren't the things that make a successful financial planner. 
To me, what's most important is understanding how to get to know somebody, what's important to them, what they want to accomplish, and then finding a way to partner with them to empower them to make better decisions. [00:03:18] And that's really the part that I thrive on, that I love, that gets me going every day. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I can totally see that with your personality. And now knowing you for years, you're amazing at that. 
Natalie Taylor: Aw, thanks. 
Laura Dugger: So from your professional experience, how do you see finances impacting people's relationships or their lives in general? 
Natalie Taylor: I mean, I think finances are such a key part of our everyday life. There's no way to get around them. We have to interact with money to live in the US and really virtually anywhere else. And I think it has a huge effect on people's relationships, either positive or negative, or sometimes a mix. I'm sure we've all heard it's a common cause of divorce, a common cause of stress and tension in relationships. 
I think money really touches on some of those patterns and things that we learned from our upbringing. Whether we mimic what we learned or we do the opposite of what we learned growing up, so much of that is subconscious and it's not something that we really talk about in our culture. [00:04:21] 
So we come into relationships with a lot of, I think, subconscious patterns and habits and feelings and emotions around money that often we're not even aware that we have and then we bring those into a relationship with somebody else who has their whole set. I think that's a lot of the reason why there can be stress and tension around finances. 
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. So let's just zero in. Could you give an example of a married couple and what that might look like? Typically, are they similar in their upbringings, or do you often find that people are opposites of the person they marry financially? 
Natalie Taylor: That's a great question, Laura. I'll never forget, Laura, one of my favorite things that you've ever said is that your love language is questions. I love that you are doing these podcasts because it is a way that you are showing love. So that's a great question. 
I find that it's very common to have a mix of like... if we just do two broad categories, spender and saver, it's very common to have one of each. [00:05:24] Sometimes it goes one way or the other, the male or the female or whoever in the relationship is one or the other. Or sometimes two savers meet or two spenders meet. There's benefits and costs to all of those dynamics. 
But I think, you know, you asked for an example. Even for my own life, I am a saver who married a spender. A lot of that has to do with the way that we were brought up, but we never realized it until we actually talked about what we learned about finances growing up. 
I am the daughter of a business owner, a business owner who had seasons of plenty and seasons of scarcity. I watched my mom, who was primarily a stay-at-home mom, plan trips for Hawaii when things were good and freak out and make us eat at nowhere else than Del Taco when things were not as great. And I did not like that imbalance. That felt very uncomfortable to me. So I think that's a lot of where that savor in me comes from. [00:06:17] 
My husband is also the son of a business owner, but his reaction to those swings in income in his family was that he kind of took on the spending, the big spender habits of his dad in particular. And just discovering that, just knowing that has helped us know each other better and be a lot more understanding and empathetic as we work through the ways that we see finances differently and the different ways that we approach what we should be doing with our money together. 
Laura Dugger: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing a personal example just so we can get to know you better. And just witnessing you two work together, grace is the word that comes to mind. You two have found how to celebrate your differences and just really make it work for your relationship. So I love that you're sharing that. 
Natalie Taylor: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that. I am an ESTJ that married an ENFP and a spender that met a saver. We found a way to make those things work for us and look at them as a strength and not a weakness. [00:07:18] I think that's helped us move forward in a positive direction rather than just being frustrated that the other one doesn't see things the way that we do. 
Laura Dugger: That's a great tip for marriage. And if anybody's wondering what those letters mean, we'll have to do a different podcast someday on the Myers-Briggs and personality profiles. 
Natalie Taylor: Oh, yeah, that would be great. 
Laura Dugger: So bringing it back to finances, what are some common questions that you're asked by your clients? 
Natalie Taylor: Well, I've been a financial planner for almost 15 years, and I've worked with, I would say, over a thousand clients one-on-one in addition to speaking to groups and fielding questions via email. So I get asked all kinds of things. 
I would say some of the most common ones are around how to have a budget that doesn't make you feel totally constrained, like being on a crash diet, and how to have a budget that works even when unexpected things happen.
I'll have clients tell me, "I have a budget that works in a normal month, but I haven't had a normal month in six months." [00:08:20] That's a very common question and a very common source of frustration.
We can talk a little bit more later about some strategies around that but in general I am a huge proponent of built-in release valves, I call them, in your budget, in your financial life, that give you the flexibility and freedom to flex with unexpected things. And it goes beyond just maybe having an emergency fund set aside but within your budget planning on having unexpected things happen and saving for them. 
So, making sure that you have an extra little pot of money that's meant to be used — you just don't know exactly when you'll use it. It's different than an emergency fund. It's just a little built-in release valve to save up an extra few dollars in those months where the budget goes well, so that you have those extra dollars in the months where the budget has something that you weren't expecting. 
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting. And then a few more questions with that, do you find that even people who are getting the same paycheck the same time each month their budget still fluctuates month to month, even though they know what their income will be? Does that make sense? [00:09:28] 
Natalie Taylor: Yes. It's a great question. Yes, absolutely. Fluctuating income is obviously one way that your budget can feel abnormal. But I think just in the course of normal life, there are so many expenses that we can't anticipate. 
I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. And I'll say, and I have a 36-year-old. And all three of my boys have broken limbs in the last 12 months. I now know the orthopedics in town very well and I know that it costs about $250 out of pocket when my husband or my two kids break their arm or their ankle or whatever. 
I don't know when those things are going to happen, but I'm pretty darn sure those weren't the last three breaks we'll have. So those are the kinds of things that we can't anticipate but are likely to happen. And those are the kinds of things that can throw off a budget, even if your income is consistent. 
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry about the broken bones. 
Natalie Taylor: Everybody is healed and happy. So cross your fingers. I am knocking on wood right now. 
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, glad for the good report. [00:10:28] Where do you often get resistance from clients? 
Natalie Taylor: I would say one of the most common areas of resistance is when it comes down to it not being willing to change habits or spending behavior. I think the reason for that is because a lot of clients that I meet, when I meet them they don't really know why they would. 
It's like going on a diet but you don't really know what you're trying to accomplish, it's gonna be really hard to say no to an ice cream sundae. But if you know, well, this is what we want for our lives and this is what we want for ourselves and this is the kind of flexibility and freedom that we want to be able to live in, so I'm going to choose these yeses, and I'm going to choose these nos, then it makes it a lot easier to change those habits. But if you don't really know why you're doing it, like the root of why you're doing it, it's really hard to stick with or be motivated to do. 
Then I think another one is especially in relationships not talking about finances. I've had clients who have hidden $30,000 of credit card debt on an annual basis, like a repeated pattern over and over coming into my office to meet with their husband to tell them about their secret credit card debt. And a lot of that has to do with not having the language to talk about finances, not understanding your background with finances. 
How did you respond to the way that you were brought up? How was your spouse brought up? How does that influence the way that you think and feel and act around money now? [00:11:54] I'd say those are some of the common points of resistance. 
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. And then how do you help them reach breakthrough? 
Natalie Taylor: One of the main things that I do with clients and when I speak with groups is talk about values and what's truly important to you because I think those are really the basis for setting goals. And then tools like having a budget or saving or investing or paying down debt, those are really just tools to get you to where you want to go. 
But if you start with values, for example, generosity could be a value that you have, how do you implement that? Well, we know what the value is. Let's set a goal around it. I want to start with 25 bucks a month or 1% of my income or a certain percentage of every windfall that I receive, every bonus, I'll give X percent or X dollar amount, then you can put a goal to it, and then you know what tools to leverage. [00:12:52] How do I work that into my budget? How do I work that into my savings plan? But without starting at that point of what's really important to me, your financial life can easily feel out of alignment. 
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. And so you've noticed once your clients go through that and they're able to have that vocabulary around finances and then learn their values, you think that's typically a point where they will break through to the next level? 
Natalie Taylor: Yes. It changes the conversation when you start out with shared values. For example, my husband and I, our values are community, family, health, generosity, adventure, and meaningful work. Those are the things that are most important to us in life. 
So when we're struggling with a financial decision, or we're just trying to figure out what the right next step is, we filter it through those six things that are really core to what's important to us. Sometimes that doesn't lead you to the decision that means the most money, but it leads you to the decision that creates the most contentment. [00:13:55] 
I'll give you an example of that. This last year, my husband and I have both experienced some solid career growth, which has been wonderful, but it's meant that both of us have traveled quite a bit. We haven't had as much time to be together as a family. 
Our health has suffered because we haven't been able to get into any normal workout routine. Our community has suffered because we can't reasonably commit to being with others on any regular basis. And we've just really felt kind of down. And then once we took a moment and filtered that through our values, it was easy to see why. It was like, "Oh, well, we haven't had enough time for family, health, or community. So no wonder, no wonder we're feeling out of sorts." 
Laura Dugger: Wow. And so not only did it help you identify it, but now that's your solution to the problem as well. So have you two been able to start putting some things in place to get back to living out those values? 
Natalie Taylor: We have, yeah. [00:14:53] So they're unfolding over time, but yes. It was like one of those aha moments. And we've known our values for 10 years, but just refiltering was that key to help us understand, Okay, here's what's out of alignment and so what changes can we make to get us back into alignment? 
So my husband's going to be making a change at work, that will mean less travel for him. I will be exiting my corporate career season and entering some more consulting and speaking and writing work, which I'm so excited about and is incredibly meaningful to me and will mean more hours with my family. So we are figuring out ways. 
And it's going to mean less money but more contentment, and that's a great decision to be able to make. So the right decision doesn't always mean more money or the ability to save more. So yeah, we're excited about it. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I'm excited for you. I can't wait to see where it goes. [00:15:44] 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. 
Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered. From efficiency apartments to 4-bedroom units and single-family homes, Leman Property Management has been providing a place for people to call home for nearly 40 years. 
Whenever you start a search for a rental, start that search with Leman Property Management. With a professional and friendly staff to serve you from the first time you walk in their doors, you won't be disappointed. 
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com, and there you can search for their different communities. You can also like them on Facebook or call their leasing office at (309) 346-4159. [00:16:46] 
Laura Dugger: Even as you're mentioning these values, I bet people are listening just thinking, how did you come up with those? Is there a list? How can they identify some of their values? 
Natalie Taylor: You know, there are some lists if you look online of like, what are my values or values exercise? You can find some lists. And really you don't have to pick things that are on the list. I've gone through values exercises with clients for many years and sometimes they make up their own either phrases or words even that combine things that are meaningful to them, that represent a value that's important to them. And that's awesome. 
So it's not prescribed. Yours don't have to be the same as what mine are. They likely aren't. And that's great. I'm sure you can Google and find some values lists. Those are a great place to start. But really just having a conversation about like, at the end of the day, what are the things that are most important to us, that if we had these things in place, our life would be joyful, our life would be content? [00:17:43] 
Laura Dugger: What is something that you most want for your clients and then how do you help them get there? 
Natalie Taylor: Gosh, at the end of the day, what I want most for my clients is that they have peace of mind and contentment and empowerment, to be able to find the changes they need to make and the actions that they need to take to be in a place where they have peace of mind or contentment. 
Honestly, I think the best way to go about that is to figure out really what's most important to you. And then set some goals around those things so that you can move towards them. And then you can line up your tools, like a budget, and saving and investing and all those things to get you to where you want to go. Peace of mind, contentment, empowerment. 
I have a very teach-them-to-fish mentality, which is why I enjoy things like public speaking because I don't need you to need me I want to teach you what you need to know so that you can go out into the world and feel empowered to do it because I think there's a lot of mystique around finances that you need a certain set of expertise or oh, I'm not good with numbers. [00:18:44] 
Honestly, there's so much that is so much simpler than I think the financial services industry maybe wants people to understand. That's what I love most. 
I love when a client comes back to me and says, "I think I should do A, B, C, D, and E. What do you think?" And I say, "Yes, that's exactly what you should do. You don't need me anymore. You've got it. You know what's important to you. You know what your goals are and you know the tools in your toolbox and how to use them and when to use them, you're good."
Laura Dugger: Yes, that would be so rewarding. Such a great moment. 
Hey friends, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that we're asking for ratings and reviews on whatever platform you use to listen to this podcast. 
If you would be willing, could you also hit subscribe to the podcast and share this with a friend? Thanks for listening. Now back to the show. 
Going back a little bit, you had mentioned generosity. What kind of encouragement do you have for us about being generous? 
Natalie Taylor: You know, I want to be really careful with this one just because everybody's values are unique to them. [00:19:44] The big caveat here is if generosity is among the values that are important to you, then I definitely have some guidance on how to build that into your life. But values are the basis for finding contentment in your finances and really in your life. 
So if generosity is a value, the next step after you identify that is to make a game plan or set a goal to pursue it. And in goal setting, I'm a strong proponent of setting milestones. Starting with a step. Don't worry about climbing the mountain, just start with your first step. 
So if your goal is to ultimately be able to give away a certain dollar amount per year, maybe we want to give away $5,000 a year, or $100 a month is our ultimate goal, or 10% of our income, or something completely different, knowing what your end goal is is important. 
And then you kind of walk that back and say, what's the first meaningful milestone that we can work towards? So let's say your goal is that you want to give 10% of all of your income, but that seems overwhelming right now. You don't know where the money is going to come from. Start with 1%. And every six months, try to bump it by 1%. [00:20:49] Or start with $25 a month and then bump it by $5 every month. 
But start somewhere and set some milestones that you can reach to ultimately get you to where you want to be. I think a lot of times people get overwhelmed by the end goal of, oh my gosh, giving away 10% is just crazy. I don't know where the money would come from. That's okay. Figure it out along the way. Start with 1%. 
Another great way to be generous and to kind of work in giving into your finances is to allocate a portion of every windfall. So when I say windfall, I mean just money that's not part of your day-to-day income. 
So maybe it's a bonus from work, maybe it's a commission check, maybe it's a financial gift, maybe it's a tax refund. But make it a point to allocate a portion. Maybe it's a flat dollar amount: every time I have a windfall, I'm going to put an extra $25 towards generosity. Or maybe it's a percentage: every time I have an extra windfall, I'm going to put 5% of it towards, or 50% of it, whatever feels right for you, towards generosity. [00:21:55] 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. I don't want to embarrass you, but I have a little story of my own as well, if you don't mind. 
Natalie Taylor: Yes.
Laura Dugger: So, for people that don't know, Natalie and I met a while ago when we were actually both living in Southern California. And this was back... we both were married, but neither one of us had kids yet. And at that time, my husband and I were in a season of really tight finances. 
She invited us out for her birthday with a group of friends. Community is one of our values as a couple as well, so we definitely wanted to go out with friends, and we love Natalie and her husband Ryan. So we didn't want to say no, but the restaurant where we were going was a little bit beyond our price point. 
So I remember we adjusted our budget that month, and I think we lived on peanut butter and jelly and eggs for most of our dinners just to save some extra money for this special night out. [00:22:51] So the night came, it was so fun, filled with tons of laughter. And when the check came, you guys, Natalie and Ryan picked it up for everyone as a surprise. So here it was, her birthday, and she bought all of us dinner. 
And I just remember you, Natalie, talking about you and Ryan both had budgeted every month one of your accounts that you each individually had was fun money. And you decided to spend your fun money by treating all of us to dinner. And it's just an act of generosity I have never forgotten. 
Natalie Taylor: Oh, Laura, you're turning me red and I'm honestly getting teary-eyed. Oh, it was so special for us to get to be with everybody. We will often do that on our birthdays. That's our big gift for ourselves is to take our close friends out for dinner. But oh, that's very sweet that you shared that. I am just totally beat red. So I'm glad we're on a podcast and not, hu, in a TV interview. [00:23:48] 
Laura Dugger: Oh, well, I'm sorry, I don't want to embarrass you. I get choked up every time I share it as well, and so does Mark. But really, thank you. So I just want people to know, you practice these principles personally, the ones that you're sharing about. 
Natalie Taylor: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that, Laura. 
Laura Dugger: All right, let's move on to some practical steps. For someone who's out there listening and they want to improve the management of their current finances, how would you help them determine what their values are? Kind of going back to what we had mentioned earlier about values. 
Natalie Taylor: So I think doing a values exercise or just really sitting down and having a conversation about what's really important to us, I think that's the place where you start. From there, setting your goals based on those values.
You know, some of those goals are just going to be goals that are just good financial stewardship, like having an emergency fund or saving for retirement. You may not feel like, well, saving for retirement isn't really reflecting family, health, generosity, community, meaningful work, or adventure for Ryan and I, but saving for retirement and figuring out the budget decisions that we need to make to be able to save for retirement, those very much do have to do with our values. [00:25:01] So what are we going to give up? 
I have a little story around that. I have another friend who, from the same church that Laura and I attended together, they really valued community. And when they looked at their budget when they very first got married, they said, Oh my gosh, when we combine it, we're spending like six, $700 on restaurants a month. And this is crazy. We're going to spend nothing on restaurants anymore. We'll increase our grocery budget a little bit. But this is really a big area of opportunity for us." And they were miserable. 
And what they didn't realize is that community is really important to them. And for them, one of the primary ways that they experienced community was going out to eat together. So when they cut out their restaurant budget, what they didn't realize is they were also cutting out community. 
So when we had a conversation about it and realized that, we talked about, Okay, so what are some ways that you can experience community that maybe don't cost $600 or $700 a month on restaurants, maybe it's $200 a month on potlucks or happy hours or other ways to experience community so that you can still honor your value but make progress on the financial goals that you're trying to accomplish. [00:26:12] 
So knowing those values really helps you make decisions that you can stick with because you can make sure that you're honoring those values in your everyday decisions. 
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. I feel like I just learned so much and have this flood of ideas of what we can be doing for a community as a value. Could we just go through maybe like three other values and what that would look like for somebody to make their budget reflect that value?
Natalie Taylor: Yeah. Health as a value, I think, is a great example because some people might be prone to say, "Oh, well, health's a value." So my gym membership and my SoulCycle and, you know, the treadmill that's under my bed, these are all worthwhile purchases because they are in alignment with health.
At the surface level, that's true. But what's important is to kind of double click there and say, are there ways for me to honor that health value in a way that still allows me to work towards my other financial goals as well? [00:27:17] And that decision might be stick with the expensive gym membership and that's okay. But it might not. 
So you have to have a willingness to look at “how can I express this value in a way that works both for my values and for my finances?”. Sometimes the answer is keep something in your budget that's more expensive. Sometimes the answer is a trade down like, well, I don't need the very expensive gym, but I can trade down to the one that's $100 instead of $400 a month, or $30 instead of $50 a month. So just figuring out and using that as your filter for making those kinds of decisions. 
Laura, I'll put you on the spot. What is a value that you and Mark have? 
Laura Dugger: Let's go with meaningful work.
Natalie Taylor: Yeah, so let's talk about meaningful work. In pursuing meaningful work, it's going to lead you to look at your career and your income differently. So when you're in pursuit of meaningful work, making more money, although helpful for making progress in your financial goals, if it's not in alignment with your value of meaningful work, you are much more likely to find yourself unfulfilled and unhappy six months, a year, two years into that role. [00:28:28] So it gives you a different filter.
If you're looking for a new job and you've got a few offers on the table, the one that is most lucrative from a financial standpoint may not be the right one. You may want to value the one where you are helping a population of people that you're passionate about or involved with a product that you really like yourself. 
You know, you don't all have to be saving the world through meaningful work. Meaningful work might just be that you want to work for a company where you love the culture and you love the people there. So it's a different lens through which to look at financial decisions. 
Of course, finances are still an important component there. So if a non-meaningful job pays you $200,000 a year and a meaningful job pays you $500 a year, you may need to find something in the middle or go with that $200,000 job for a temporary period of time. So it can't be your only filter, but I think it's a really important lens to use as you're making those decisions. [00:29:26] 
Laura Dugger: Such a balanced answer, that it can't be the only deciding factor. I like that. I'll give you one more value that came to me. I've heard a lot of people say, "We just value freedom or flexibility." What might that look like with their budget? 
Natalie Taylor: That's a great question. So I think one of the best, very tangible things you can do to incorporate flexibility and freedom... well, I'll say two things. And these are more like financial strategies that you can do to honor those values. 
But one of them is having money set aside. I'm gonna call it an emergency fund but really it's just a pot of money that allows you to have the flexibility to make proactive decisions instead of being forced to make decisions that you don't want. 
So for example maybe your emergency fund is there to replace the water heater that goes or to fix your car when it breaks down. But maybe your emergency fund is also there that if your job is just not the right place for you and you have to make a change and you cannot wait a moment longer, and you know you can get another job but you just don't have it lined up at this moment, but the irons are in the fire and the offers are just about to roll in, your emergency fund is your freedom fund that you can say, "I'm all done. I'm leaving. Today's my last day." [00:30:50] It gives you the freedom to be able to make decisions that you couldn't otherwise make. 
Then the other one is a fun account, which Laura referenced before. That's what Ryan and I used when we took our friends out for dinner for my birthday. But I love the idea of a fun account. The fun account, it's definitely not a marriage saver, I can't be that dramatic, but it is key, especially when you're managing finances as a team. 
The idea of the fun account is it's a separate account. It's not your emergency fund. It's not your retirement account. It's not your mark towards any goals. The goal of this account is to have fun. 
And you may be able to save into it on a monthly basis. Maybe it's $100 a month or $500 a month or $25 a month. And you may be able to allocate a portion of all those windfalls that we were talking about. So commissions or bonuses or gifts, financial gifts. Put a percentage of those into the fun account. 
And then you're growing this pot of money that's there to just use totally carefree, guilt-free, spend, splurge, do it. It's a nice release valve for you to have. And you can use it in any way you want. [00:32:00] You can use it to give away to other people if that's what you want to use it for. You can use it to spend a day at the spa. 
You can use it to buy, in the case of my husband and I, a new guitar. I married a recovering musician and a lot of our fund account goes to amps or pedal boards or guitars and that's great. It allows my husband the freedom to be able to have a splurge once in a while while still making progress towards our goals. 
Even though he's a spender, he can feel good about all the progress we're making on our goals because he has the release valve of our fun account that he knows if he wants something that's out of the everyday budget that we typically wouldn't be able to afford on a monthly basis, we've got the fun account to splurge with. 
Laura Dugger: And people can implement that today. All right, Natalie, this has been incredible. So you said that you're transitioning into new things professionally. If our listeners want to find you and connect, where can they find you?
Natalie Taylor: Oh, thanks for asking that question. [00:33:00] They can find me online. We can maybe put a link in the show notes. Would that be okay? 
Laura Dugger: That would be great. We'll put your website there and any other notes that we need to include from this episode. 
Natalie Taylor: Awesome.
Laura Dugger: Our listeners know that we're called Savvy at this podcast for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life, Natalie, to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Natalie Taylor: I love this question. It's such a good one. I hate to say something that I've already said, but I really think that 'fun account' concept is something that you can do today, that you can implement. I would be hard-pressed to think that if you manage your finances with someone else, that they wouldn't be into the idea of having a release valve splurge account where you can really just enjoy. [00:33:54] I think it's such an important thing.
Especially if you have tangible bonuses from hard work accomplished, it's important that you set aside a part of that to really enjoy and to savor. So I would say the fun account is probably my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: And you have just laid an incredible foundation. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. It's been incredibly helpful. You're so insightful and just full of grace as you share all of these principles. So thank you, Natalie. 
Natalie Taylor: Oh, thanks. Thanks so much for having me. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:34:53] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? [00:35:53] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:36:57] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

9 Self-Care in Motherhood With Karen Stubbs, Founder of Birds on a Wire

9. Self-Care in Motherhood With Karen Stubbs, Founder of Birds on a Wire
 
**Transcription Below**
 
James 1:5 (NIV) “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.” 
 
Karen Stubbs is the founder and leader of Birds on a Wire, a ministry designed to equip moms through truth, encouragement and community. She is the author of 3 books, Letters to Moms, Moments with God and Tips on Motherhood.  She has also developed small group curricula for moms that is being used across the United States and in nine countries.  Karen is the wife of Greg Stubbs and they have four grown children. She is passionate about challenging moms to experience motherhood in the way God intended it for them and their families. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Karen’s Website
Karen’s Podcast 
Books by Karen Stubbs:
Moments With God for Moms: 365 Devotions
Moments With God for Moms: 365 Devotions-Lux Leather Edition
80 Tips on Motherhood
Six Truths Of Motherhood - Study Guide
Personality Plus for Parents by Florence Littauer 
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman 
The Five Love Languages of Children by Gary Chapman and Ross Campbell 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria  
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
Y'all are in for a treat. I get to say "y'all" because today we have a lovely Southern woman as our guest. Karen Stubbs is the founder of the non-profit ministry for moms called Birds on a Wire. 
Karen resides in Atlanta with her husband, Greg. They have successfully launched their four adult children. She was traveling to central Illinois for one of her programs, and so I had the pleasure of interviewing her in person. 
The night before we recorded, we went out to a local pizza place to get to know each other better. She is the real deal. She is so full of joy and willing to answer any question on motherhood. [00:01:13] 
In this episode, we discuss how to take care of ourselves as moms, where to find wisdom for our daily tasks of motherhood, and how to be a student of our children. So here's today's episode with Karen Stubbs. 
Good morning, Karen. Thanks so much for joining us at The Savvy Sauce today. 
Karen Stubbs: Thank you so much, Laura, for having me. 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Well, you are the guru on motherhood, so we're going to camp out there today. It's so common to hear as a mom that mom guilt never goes away. What is your advice for moms who are battling guilt? 
Karen Stubbs: You're right. It is such a go-to because we just feel bad, you know, all the time. Like we feel bad whenever our child gets hurt. We feel bad whenever we've disciplined and they say, "Mommy, you hurt my feelings. You're making me sad." Then we're like, "Oh, I don't want to make them sad," you know, kind of thing.
But I think we just have to ask ourselves a question: Have we committed a sin? If you've not committed a sin, it's not your fault that they fell and scraped their knees. [00:02:17] It's not your fault that they feel bad that you've disciplined them. They should feel bad. They got in trouble. And we want to spare them from all these negative feelings, but that's life.
So we just got to realize this is part of growing up. And if I keep my child from all these things that might potentially hurt them, hurt their feelings, whatever, I'm really doing them a disservice because whenever they go out into the world they're just going to be trampled on and that's going to bring a lot of anxiety and that kind of thing. So you just have to ask yourself, am I committing a sin here? 
Now, if you are constantly screaming at your child, abusing them, locking them in a closet, yeah, you should feel guilty about that. That's not a good thing. You know what I'm saying? So you're like, "Yeah, I just committed a sin. I shouldn't have treated my child that way. That wasn't nice of me." You know what I'm saying? But if you're doing your mom duties, then you don't need to feel guilty. [00:03:17]  
Don't feel guilty because you get frustrated with your children because we all get frustrated with our children. Because we want them to do certain things and they don't do it, and that frustrates us. That's human nature. 
Laura Dugger: Which leads us into the next question. You mentioned that being a mom is hard. Why should we expect it to be difficult? 
Karen Stubbs: Well, it is. It's just really difficult. Our responsibility is to train up our child in the way they should go. That's what God tells us. He also tells us that children are to obey our parents. But it's hard, because as much as we are trying to teach them, guide them, influence their decisions, they are pushing against us at every turn, every step. 
It starts when they're toddlers, and it doesn't ever stop. You know, in the teen years, they're still pushing against you. So it's hard. We feel like we're going up a mountain with a backpack on, carrying a suitcase. [00:04:20] You know what I mean? And you're just trudging through. And that's what it is like being a mom. It is hard. But God tells us that He's there with us and He's going to guide us. He's going to give us wisdom. So we just need to start really leaning into Him. 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. For you personally, raising four children with a husband that traveled frequently, what was hard for you during different seasons of motherhood?
Karen Stubbs: Oh, gosh. Do we have all day? What was hard? Just doing it alone a lot of the time was hard. Not having Greg to have my back. There was no "we're going to talk about this when your dad gets home because he may not be home for two weeks."
I mean, I really have a huge heart for single moms because they do it all the time. At least Greg did come home. You know what I'm saying? Single moms, it's all on their shoulders. 
What else was hard? Those younger years were really hard. Just because they're all young, they're all little, you just can't ever do enough no matter what you do. "I want more. Mommy this, mommy this, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy." I told you yesterday I just got so sick of hearing the word "mommy". [00:05:29] 
And then it's hard when they're young physically. When they're teenagers, it's hard emotionally because now we've upped the stakes of the game and their actions and their choices have lifelong consequences sometimes. So you get even more crazy. 
As a mom and you're like, "Oh, for the love, you know, this is really a big deal. It wasn't a big deal when you were four. But now you're, you know, 17 and this is a big deal." It's just hard. 
Laura Dugger: Maybe that's one of the reasons that you've always mentioned on your own podcast that it's important for moms to take care of themselves. What does that actually look like, practically speaking? How can a mom take good care of herself? 
Karen Stubbs: I think it's a balancing act. I think of baby, infant season, that's a time where you got to be all in because that baby is just so dependent on you. There's not a lot of self-care during that time. [00:06:26] You're getting up in the middle of the night. You are nursing. If you are nursing, you feel like a human cow. But if you're not nursing, you're still getting up in the middle of the night.
So you walk around with bags under your eyes. You try to sleep in the afternoon, maybe they don't take a good nap that day. That's just a hard time. Period. And you've got to be there for the baby, because the baby cannot obviously feed themselves. 
As the baby gets older, I just think it's different for different people. Some moms really need to read a book by themselves. You know, maybe just find 30 minutes in the afternoon to flip through a magazine, to read a book, whatever helps her. For me, I like taking bubble baths at night. That's relaxing to me. 
I used to get sitters in the middle of the day just to even go to the grocery store because that was just nice for me to walk through the grocery store without having four kids, putting things in the buggy. "No, we're not gonna have that cereal this week. Put that back. No, we're just coming in here to get diapers and milk and fruit and that's it." And then you walk out and you've got $150 in your buggy and you're like, "What in the world?" you know? [00:07:36] 
Maybe it is going to Starbucks, swinging by Starbucks and just getting yourself your special drink and everybody else saying, "I want blah, blah, blah," and you're like, "Nope, this is just a mommy day. This is a mommy drink and you're not going to have any mommy drinks and no, you will not have a sip. This is just for me."
Sometimes it's just when you go through the grocery store and you see the fresh-cut flowers, you just say, "You know what? I'm going to get those." And you put them in your buggy, and you put them in a vase when you get home. And every time you walk by, you just, "Oh, that's beautiful and that brings me joy." 
It could be something as simple as that to something as taking a girls weekend trip and getting away. It just depends on what stage of life you're in. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. I love how you mention a balance. Do you think that there's any signals that would let us know as a mom if we're getting too much self-care or not enough? 
Karen Stubbs: Oh, that's a great question. Well, most of us don't have to worry about too much self-care because usually our husbands or our children will be like, "Hey babe, you've got your nails done five times this month and I think that's a little much," or whatever. [00:08:46] 
On the other side, I think whenever you are just in a constant state of frustration, you know what I'm saying, that's a good sign that you need a break. Whenever you find yourself, I am constantly yelling at my kids for no reason, you know, I mean, they're just... I'd say, "Pick up your shoes," and then they're like, whatever. And you're like, [yelling] "Pick up your shoes." You know what I'm saying? You're like, "Whoa, I need to take a step back here. I'm a little out of, you know... I'm going to crazy land." Those were always my signs. 
Whenever my kids were just getting on my nerves, I was like, "I need a break. I need to walk away from you. I need to get out of this house, leave you with the sitter so that whenever I come back home, I'm actually excited to see you and I want to be around you."
Laura Dugger: That's so freeing to hear. I love that. What about rest then? What does rest and re-energizing look like for a mom who's still got kids at home? [00:09:45] 
Karen Stubbs: Well, sort of the same thing. What brings you rest? For me, I'm an extrovert, so being around my friends brought me rest. For an introvert, that's like the kiss of death. You know what I'm saying? 
Laura Dugger: Sure. 
Karen Stubbs: So I would call my girlfriends, "Hey, let's go to a movie. Let's go out to eat. Let's go just..." Even if you sometimes have your children with you, let's go to the park. If you'll meet me at the park, the kids can play, you and I can sit on the bench and talk and chat, and I could just have some adult conversation. That brings me rest. I really enjoy that.
Like I said, if you're an introvert, that's probably not gonna do it for you. So you need to think, Okay, I need to be alone. I need to be quiet." I've had some friends—this is hilarious—that will just get a hotel room for the night, just by themselves, nobody else, and just be. Which is crazy, but they love that. Like, that brings them energy. That brings them rest. [00:10:42] 
Maybe some Saturday, just say, "Sweetie, will you just let me sleep in until 9 o'clock, and you just take the kids." I will say this for Greg, as much as he traveled, whenever he was home, he didn't have anything to do. Like, his job is flying, and so once he left the plane, he was completely done.
So he would always let me sleep in on the mornings he was home. If it was a school morning, he'd get the kids up, he'd get them dressed. Even if I was awake, I would just lay in my bed and listen to it and not have to get out and go be engaged with it. And it was so freeing and so restful to me. Does that make sense? 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I love how that even ties back into your first answer, that taking that rest and re-energizing. We may naturally feel a little bit of guilt there, but we just ask ourselves, are we committing a sin? No. 
Karen Stubbs: Well, and I think, too, it was good for Greg to see what all I went through. So if I would have gotten up and went and helped, because, you know, you would hear them, where's my notebook? And I knew where it was. But I was just like, "Well, nobody's here in the mornings to tell me where their notebook is." So, I'm just gonna lay here and see how Greg figures it out. And they always got it figured out, you know? [00:11:53] 
So, sometimes I'll be like, "I feel guilty, I should get up." And I'm like, "No, I'm not. I'm just gonna sit tight." And maybe that's bad, I don't know. But it got me through it.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Very real. Love it. So, for you personally, when you are needing wisdom, where do you get wisdom as a mom? 
Karen Stubbs: Well, my mom is full of wisdom. I have to say she's pretty wise. The Bible. James 1.5 says, "If anyone lacks wisdom, I will give it to you." I leaned in heavily in on that verse, especially when I lived in Virginia, far away from my mom, and it was always a long-distance call. And you can't be calling your mom like 24-7. She's like, "Figure it out. I did it myself, you gotta figure it out."
But the Bible, mentor, friends. I have three ladies in my life that are about 15 years ahead of me in the journey, and I usually call them and, "Hey"—I run this idea by them—"what do you think? Am I crazy right now? Should I stand my ground?" And they're great in helping give me wisdom on stuff like that. [00:12:58] 
Laura Dugger: Sorry to interrupt, but just in case somebody hasn't ever heard this before, let's say that exact verse. So it's found in the Bible in the New Testament in the book of James 1:5. And it says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."
Well, and then with a mentor for somebody listening today, what if they say, I want that. I want somebody 15 years ahead of me. How did you find a mentor and how would you advise us to look for one?
Karen Stubbs: Oh, that's a great question. These are great questions, Laura. I would pray. I would ask God, Bring someone into my life. I would look around, maybe in your church, maybe in the school system, maybe your community, and see someone that is older than you. They need to be through the stages that you're in right now. [00:13:54] They've finished them. 
Look at her kids, look at her marriage, see, you know, is she a good example that I want to follow after? If she gives me advice, do I want to follow her advice? So really look at her life and then go and ask her, "Hey, I know we aren't even really that great of friends, but I would love for you to mentor your little bit further ahead than me, and would you be open to just being my mentor? 
And ladies that mentor me, we just go to lunch. That's all we do. They don't have any kind of agenda. We just talk and we just go to lunch. And that works.
Laura Dugger: It's so neat to see we're beneficiaries of all of that. Oh, yeah, even with your podcast, I would recommend everybody tune in to Wire Talk with Karen Stubbs, that's a way of having a mentor as well in a creative solution if you can't find somebody local.
Karen Stubbs: It's true. [00:14:52] 
Laura Dugger: It can sometimes be frustrating when moms who are in the next season of life or maybe have no more children in the home always say, "Enjoy these days because the years are short." What's your take on this? 
Karen Stubbs: Oh my goodness. I say they're right. The years are short, but the days are super long. And sometimes you just feel like you're never gonna get through a day. So just thinking, Oh my gosh, the year, like I can't even think about a year right now. I'm just trying to get through potty training, or I'm just trying to get my middle schooler to stop rolling their eyes at me. You know what I'm saying? And acting like I'm dumb as dirt. 
But I would just say, you know what, the days are hard, and they're just not great. And so it's okay. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong, because there's not music in the background, and butterflies and rainbows everywhere you're looking, and your children are just obeying you all the time. They're not obeying you. They're saying, no, and I don't want that, and you hurt my feelings, and blah, they're pushing against you. [00:15:55] So it is hard. 
I just think recognize that as such, and then just be like, You know what, they are hard, but I'm going to embrace it, and I'm going to have a good attitude, and I'm going to move forward, and one day I will get through this. 
My children are all grown, and I'm a grandmother, and I love and adore my grandchildren, and I just went out to California for a week and it was hard. By the end of the day, I was tired. You know what I'm saying? And when I got on the plane, I hated leaving them. But I was sort of glad to get back to some peace and quiet and all of that kind of stuff. 
So, it's okay to have these feelings and it's frustrating and that's alright. You're not doing anything wrong. Actually, you're doing a lot right if you're feeling that. 
Laura Dugger: Which is always good to hear. And then when you were in that phase, so you had four that were all... was it under the age of seven?
Karen Stubbs: Seven, yeah. So seven, five, three, and then Abby was a baby. [00:16:54] 
Laura Dugger: Okay. So when they were all at home, what did you do to make those days, I guess, more enjoyable or what did you do to embrace that season and appreciate it?
Karen Stubbs: Well, I think maybe because Greg traveled so much I made my kids very independent. Looking back, that was something I'm glad I did. I would send my kids outside to play. We had a fence in backyard and I would just send them outside. I would lock the door and I'm like, "You're not coming in until lunch." 
And they would be like, "We want water." And I'm like, "There's the hose, drink up." And maybe about 10 o'clock I put a box of goldfish out there. "Here's some fish." And let them figure it out. Then I would get some stuff done in the house.
We had windows all on the back side of our house so I could see everything they were doing. The gates were locked. They couldn't get out. You know what I'm saying? So I felt very safe with them being outside. [00:17:53] That really helped me get through. And then they would take naps in the afternoon.
Kelsey would sit in a room and do things because she was a little bit older. And it was wonderful. That's how I got sort of through the days. I let them play independently. I did not sit and play with them constantly. I was like, "We just played tea party. Now you go play. I got to get some stuff done around the house." That's what I did, and I just let them do it. Then I was a big believer in sitters.
Laura Dugger: I love that. 
Karen Stubbs: I love babysitters. 
Laura Dugger: Sometimes we don't hear much about that. Sometimes I feel like we, maybe, are given the cultural message that it's not okay to get a sitter. You should be able to do this all on your own. How would you recommend fighting that or what were some truths about babysitters that were good that you could pass on to us? 
Karen Stubbs: The way I look at it is any job you do, and being a mom is a job, sorry, but it is, you get breaks. [00:18:54] You get a lunch break, you get to go home at night from your job, and you get to rest. And you come back the next day, and you've got a fresh perspective, and you hit the ground running. 
So motherhood is so crazy that the world is put on us, you have to do it all by yourself, and you don't need anybody's help. That is ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? So, why wouldn't I want to give a break? Why wouldn't I want to get some rest? I just think I'd be a crazy loon. You know what I mean? 
Obviously, when you get a sitter, you need to love your sitter. If they're going to come into your home, you want to be able to trust them. So, I'm assuming all moms do their homework on that part. My kids loved babysitters. And then the guilt part, I would just say, this is going to make me a better mom. 
Laura Dugger: What is your favorite topic to talk about and encourage moms with?
Karen Stubbs: I really have two favorites. So the personalities. You and I were talking about all those last night. I just think it's fascinating. And not just the temperaments, but just how your child is wired. [00:20:00] I just think it's fascinating. 
The more you can learn about your child, the better you can parent them. The love languages are important. Their temperaments are important. You know, what skills, talents do they have? Because all my children are very different from me, and if I had just leaned into what I knew, I would have parented them very differently. But I'm glad that God gave me the wisdom enough early on to figure it out, you know, like, how they were wired and then start parenting towards that. 
The second topic that I love to talk about is to address the lies that moms believe, and really show them this is a lie, and it's a lie to bring you down, in my opinion, from Satan himself. This is what God says is truth, and the truth will set you free. And if I can free up moms, if I can give them some freedom, I think that brings joy in their life, purpose in their life as a mom, and just more meaning, and then they're not so downtrodden all the time. [00:21:03] 
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible topics. Let's camp out on both of those for a little while. So first with the personalities, again we'll link to the show notes about Gary Chapman's love languages book. There's even one for kids, which is great. You've always talked about this book, Personality Plus for Parents by Florence Littauer. Would you share that personality profile with us, that there's four.
Karen Stubbs: Yeah, there's four temperaments. There's choleric, melancholy, phlegmatic, and sanguine. When my son was born, he's my third, he is polar opposite for me. I just did not understand him. I loved him dearly, he was the first boy, just very different from the girls. But when he was about three, well, even younger than three, maybe two, he just... like we'd go into church on Sundays and he would growl at people. Like, he really did not want anyone paying attention to him at all. [00:22:05]  
That is so foreign to me because I am a sanguine and the more the attention, the better. Like, "Look at me, you know, I'm pretty special. Look over here," you know, kind of thing. But not Taylor. I mean, Taylor did not even like us to sing him happy birthday. He really didn't. I just didn't understand him. 
One of my mentors at the time, she's 10 years older than me, and she said, "You need to read this book. It will help you understand Taylor. He is not like you. I think he's a melancholy." So I read the book. And I was like, Whoa, melancholies are very serious. They're deep thinkers. They're very thoughtful. They're sensitive. I'm not sensitive at all. You know what I'm saying? I'm really not. I'm definitely not a deep thinker. I mean, I can be thoughtful, but I'm not to the level Taylor is thoughtful. 
Taylor, as a grown man, last weekend I had been traveling, and I got home from the travel, and he was at the house visiting—he's 23 years old—and he had me a dozen roses in the bedroom right when I walked in because he knew I'd been traveling. He got me pink, my favorite flower. That's how thoughtful he is. Like, he's constantly thinking of others. [00:23:17] 
Even when he was little, he was like that. He would bring me little flowers from the yard or whatever. But the fact that he didn't like attention drawn to him, I just didn't understand that. Taylor wanted his space from people. He would get embarrassed very easily. Even if you were praising him it would embarrass him in front of people. 
So I didn't understand that so I had to really study up on it and be like, "Oh, you're not weird. This is just really the way God's created you." Because honestly there for a while I thought, "What is wrong with my son? He is so strange." But he wasn't strange. He was just Taylor. 
So I had to tell preschool teachers, at church, you know, "Just don't look at him. Don't talk to him. The more you come at him and, 'Hey Taylor, we're so glad you're here,' the worse mood he would get in." Melancholies are very moody. So once they get in a bad mood, forget about it. Like, they're there until they can work themselves out of it. That was another thing I had to give Taylor space. [00:24:20] 
The girls would come in from school, they'd sit down at the bar, we'd all talk, "How was your day? What's going on?" They'd blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Taylor would come in, go straight down to the basement where his room was, turn on Spongebob, and just veg out. And he would not say two words. Even one day, I said, "How was your day?" And he goes, "Stop asking me that question every day." And I was like, "Okay." But when he was ready to talk, he would come up, "Hey mom, how are you doing?" And then he would talk. But I had to give him his time. 
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to hear examples. So that's the melancholy. And sometimes you match these with colors. So that's the blue. Could you go around and give a few characteristics of each color or title?
Karen Stubbs: Yes. The next one is Choleric—that's your red—and they are your powerful personality. So they want control from the moment they're born. Kelsey and Abby are my reds. They are very leader-driven, very strong. [00:25:22] They want to be in control. 
Their view in life is either get on my highway or get off. You know, I don't care. I'm forging ahead. If you agree with me, that's awesome. Get behind me. But if you're not, I don't care. Move it or lose it kind of thing. 
Their weaknesses are they are really strong. That's also a positive, but it's also a weakness. They control by anger. Blues control by their moods. Reds control by their anger. They can smell weakness from a mile away and will... you know, if they think you're weak, they got your number, they're gonna run all over you. 
Then there's the phlegmatics. They're greens. They are your real easygoing personality. If you could have one word for them, it would be peace. They want peace at all times. They hate conflict. They hate confrontation. They can be stubborn. You don't see it that often, but whenever you do see it... Like Emily is my green. And when she says, "I'm not going to do it," she's not going to do it, and you can't make her do it. You know what I'm saying? [00:26:31] 
She was in high school and she had to raise money to be on the equestrian team. I think they had to raise $1,200 to sell ads for their programs or whatever. With all my kids, whenever they had those types of things, I just said, "I will buy an ad and help you, but it's on you to raise this money, because if you are old enough to be on this type of thing where you're raising money, it's not my job to raise your money. So you gotta raise your own money."
Well, Emily doesn't like confrontation, so she doesn't like to go in and ask people for things, because that feels conflicted to her. And so she just kept putting it off. The greens control by procrastination, because they think, "I'll just keep procrastinating and you'll finally help me." 
And I just had known her long enough in her life, and I thought, "I'm not helping her on this one." And I told her from the very beginning, "Emily, if you don't raise your money, it's coming out of your savings account, $1,200." [00:27:34]
So she waited all summer long, and she did not budge. And my father told her, "I will buy a $300 ad from you and she would not even go in and get it from him." And so I just thought, "It's fine." And Greg's like, "Are you really going to make her pay?" And I'm like, "Absolutely, I am. Absolutely." So she only had to pay $900 because eventually, my dad did give her the money. But still, she paid $900 out of her bank account. 
But the greens are very easygoing, they're very loving, they're easy, really, especially if you're comparing them to a red. But they can be frustrating for a mom that is red that wants them to get motivated because they have a hard time getting themselves motivated. So the red moms can get very frustrated with their green children. 
Then the last one is sanguine and they're yellow and their keyword is just "fun". I just want to have fun. And if life gets hard, they don't want to do it because that's not fun, school's not fun, unless the people part of school is very fun. [00:28:38] 
But they are very people-oriented. They are very life of the party. They're great storytellers. They are very engaging with others. Their weaknesses are they can have a hard time finishing projects because it's not fun. After a while, it gets to be hard and they don't want to keep doing it. They can flip from one thing to another. 
I was a big flitter in life. I was like a butterfly, like started a lot of things, but had a hard time focusing and finishing them. They control by charm. They can charm the pants off of anybody. 
And an example of that was me. When I was in second or third grade, I went to a Christian private school, and we had a field trip to this Bible store close to the school. I'd seen this plaque for my mom, and Mother's Day was coming up, and I didn't have any money on me at the time, but my bus went by this store every day. [00:29:40]
I got in my head... and sanguines are very persistent. Once they get a thought in their head, they will not let it go. And so I sat behind the bus driver, and every day I would say, "Could you please stop by the Bible bookstore? I've got my money. I'll just run in. I'll just get da-da-da." Eventually, he did it. 
We stopped the whole bus so I could go in and get this thing for my mom. And my sister was on the bus, and she was like, "Why have we stopped here?" And they're like, "Some little girl's in there buying a gift for her mother for Mother's Day." And Michelle said, when I got back on the bus, she was like, "Oh, of course it was you." You know, that kind of thing. 
Laura Dugger: Working your yellow charm. 
Karen Stubbs: I know. Usually, yellows and reds are very positive type people. Blues and greens, see it more the glass half empty or negative. My husband's a blue and he says, We're just more realistic. So yellows and reds think they can conquer the world and greens and blues are like, "I don't know. I'm a little bit more cautionary." [00:30:43] 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And that's the beauty of that book that we mentioned too, is it shows you how to interact not only with your child and their temperament, but knowing and understanding yours as well. 
Karen Stubbs: And even with your husband. 
Laura Dugger: That's a great point. Yes, all relationships. Your other topic that you mentioned you enjoy talking about is lies that moms believe. Would you give just a few examples of the lies they believe and what truth you insert to help overcome those lies? 
Karen Stubbs: Oh, absolutely. I have a curriculum called Says Who? And there's two, part one and part two, because there's so many lies. The lie that your husband must complete you, you know, they're your soulmate, that's a lie. It's just a lie. God didn't create anyone to complete you, only He completes you. 
That was a hard lesson for me to learn, because I did look to Greg for years to complete me, and for my happiness. And only God can bring you true joy and happiness, not another person. 
Now, sometimes God of course allows your husband to make you happy and fill you up and all that and that's great. That's just icing on the cake. But if you're looking to your husband to be your main source of filling your needs, you're setting him up for failure. [00:32:01]  
Then a lot of times if mom's don't get their husbands to meet their needs, they start looking to their children to meet their needs. And that's even a worse recipe for disaster because if your husband can't do it, and he's an adult, there's no way a child can fill your needs. 
So, so many times as a mom, we do, we put all of our eggs in our children's basket. "You know, and you're gonna bring me joy." They do bring us joy but we start depending on them for that joy. And that is a bad road to get on, because your child is a separate individual from you, and you don't need to be putting that pressure on them. Once again, God is the only one. 
Another one is that I don't measure up. As a wife, as a mom, as a friend, whatever. Heck, in our social media culture, we can just look at Facebook one day and be like in the depths of despair because, you know, we're not measuring up. [00:32:58] But that's not true. We do measure up. In Christ we are whole and His grace makes us all new. You know what I'm saying? So it's just we need to embrace that mindset of "I am a child of God, and in Him I am complete".
Laura Dugger: Love that. Thank you for sharing those. 
Karen Stubbs: You're welcome. You're welcome. 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A East Peoria. First, the best-kept secret is their chicken for breakfast, which is served Monday through Saturday, 6.30 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. 
My personal favorite are the chicken minis. Four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
Second, did you know that Chick-fil-A caters? They will deliver and set up all of your food for your event, such as your business meeting or your birthday party. [00:34:00] There are even a few menu items that you can only get through catering, including the waffle potato chips and chilled grilled subs. 
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For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to cfaeastpeoria.com. 
Laura Dugger: Here at The Savvy Sauce, we're called Savvy for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what's your savvy sauce? 
Karen Stubbs: Oh no, what is my savvy sauce? I think my savvy sauce, my mantra really throughout my whole life is balance. You know, everything in moderation. [00:35:01] Because you can go crazy on both sides, you know, of not doing enough or doing too much. And if my personality would probably tend towards the too much part, but just balance and everything in moderation. 
Laura Dugger: And you just have this special way of speaking balance. I think it is something you're very gifted at. And I just appreciate all the work that you've done. I've loved listening to all of your resources, reading your books and I've considered you a mentor now for years and it's just such a pleasure to get to meet with you in person. So thank you for being available and thanks for joining today. 
Karen Stubbs: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: And if our listeners want to connect with you, do you have a website or a way that they can? 
Karen Stubbs: Yeah. Birdsonowiremoms.com is our website. We have a whole website there. They can ask questions for our podcast, like if they have mom questions. We have a shop, they can look at all the resources. Like say if they like the [lies?] idea, you can pick on that and do that curriculum either with a small group or just by yourself. 
Then the Wire Talk with Karen Stubbs is definitely a way they can listen in every week. Then also for fans of Birds on the Wire, we do weekly emails that just go to their inbox, and it's just encouragement for moms. [00:36:24] It's free. The podcast is free, and so yeah. Browse around, see if we can help you out. 
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Thank you. There's still so many questions that we have, so would you be willing to come again? 
Karen Stubbs: I would love it. Yes, of course. 
Laura Dugger: Okay, great. Let's do that. Thanks so much. 
Karen Stubbs: You're welcome. 
Laura Dugger: Guess what? It's giveaway time again. Today, if you head over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "Giveaways" tab, you'll see how you can enter to win one of Karen's books, 365 devotions, Moments with God for Moms. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:37:35] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:38:35] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:39:37] 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

8 Hope for Treating Pelvic Pain With Pelvic Floor Physical Therapist Specialist, Tracey LeGrand

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.
 
8. Hope for Treating Pelvic Pain With Pelvic Floor Physical Therapist Specialist, Tracey LeGrand
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Romans 15:13 (NIV) “May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.” 
 
Tracey LeGrand is a PT, SMPT, and WCS Board-Certified Clinical Specialist in Women’s Health Physical Therapy. She opened Cornerstone Pelvic Health & Wellness in Lexington, Kentucky in 2012 and she is the current owner-operator. At Cornerstone, she  specializes in the treatment of various pelvic floor conditions, such as, pregnancy pain, pelvic pain, sexual pain, prolapse, urinary incontinence and more. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Tracey’s Website
Tracey’s Facebook Page
Tracey’s Brochure
Blog Recommendation From Tracey
Article Recommendation From Tracey
Pelvic Floor Article Recommendation From Tracey 
Squatty Potty
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. 
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode. 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. [00:01:03] 
Today we get to learn from Tracey LeGrand. Tracey specializes in the treatment of pelvic floor issues. She understands the physical and emotional needs of patients dealing with issues such as pelvic pain and incontinence. 
Today we'll be specifically focusing on how to treat pelvic floor issues related to pregnancy, sexual pain, and chronic pelvic pain. Here's our chat. 
Welcome, Tracey. 
Tracey LeGrand: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: Well, we are so excited to hear from you. Can you just start by giving us a snapshot of who you are and what you like to do? 
Tracey LeGrand: Absolutely. I wear a lot of hats. I'll start with my career. I am a physical therapist. I've been practicing as a physical therapist for close to 20 years now. I have a specialty in treating pelvic floor issues. 
I'm actually a board-certified clinical specialist in women's health physical therapy. [00:02:01] The name of my practice is Cornerstone Pelvic Health and Wellness. I spend all of my time treating all sorts of pelvic floor issues. That's what I love to do. I'm very passionate about it and the people that I treat. 
But I'm also very passionate about being a mom. So I have two boys at home, ages 10 and 6. They keep me very busy. And I have a wonderful husband. Actually, today is my 21st wedding anniversary. So I've been married for 21 years, and God has blessed us tremendously. We are very involved in our community, in our church. 
Laura Dugger: My goodness. Happy anniversary. 
Tracey LeGrand: Yes, thank you. 
Laura Dugger: How did you get interested in helping those with pelvic floor issues? 
Tracey LeGrand: Everyone wants to ask me that question. I have probably answered that question at least two or three times this week already. Because I know that even patients who come to see me, a lot of them, even when they are referred for this type of treatment, they don't even realize that this type of physical therapy exists. [00:03:06] 
So actually I didn't really know a whole lot about it either when I was in PT school. Honestly, we didn't get any type of training in this type of therapy within our physical therapy program. So honestly, I was kind of interested in treating shoulders. I thought I was going to graduate specializing in shoulders, but I do feel like I always had an interest in kind of women's health issues, even in PT school before I knew that this was an option. 
I would do my research papers on the effects of female hormones and just kind of do things a little bit differently. So when I graduated PT school, basically one of the gurus in this field came to my state and did an introductory class in this area. I took the class and I just immediately became intrigued. The more that I went to training I just realized that this was a huge field. 
There's not a lot of therapists who even today specialize in this area of physical therapy. [00:04:08] I said in the beginning that I'm a board-certified clinical specialist. I'm one of only four in the state of Kentucky, and there's only about probably like 350 of us, 375 maybe, in the whole United States. So it's still a growing field, but a very specialized form of physical therapy. 
I think the more I got into treating these issues and realized they're very sensitive issues, I treat everything from sexual pain disorders, urinary incontinence, pelvic pain, lots of very sensitive things. So I wanted to kind of combine ministry with my job. I don't look at my job as just something that I do, a paycheck. I really do feel called to minister to people, to serve people, to share love with people. 
So I think as I got into this area, my personality and being able to show kindness—I kind of have a quiet personality, but very calming—I was able to use that to really help these women. [00:05:13] Actually I treat men too, but you know, it's embarrassing sometimes to talk about some of the things that I treat. So I feel like it was just a natural progression and doors continue to open. And before I knew it, that's all that I was treating.
Laura Dugger: It's also fascinating coupling that with your degree in counseling as well. 
Tracey LeGrand: Absolutely. Honestly, when I was probably practicing physical therapy for about 10 years, maybe not quite 10 years, and as I began treating these issues, it was kind of the joke around the clinic that I would come out of my treatment rooms trying to find the Kleenex box because ultimately all of my patients were always in my treatment room crying because there's just a lot of emotion that goes along with some of these issues that I treat. 
So I think I realized, okay, I need something else to help me help the emotional aspect of some of these things. And so, yes, I felt kind of led to go back and to pursue a counseling degree. [00:06:19] It took me about six years to get that degree because I continued to work as a physical therapist full-time. I had my first child in the middle of that. So it took me a while, but I feel like I use that every single day in my practice. I do feel like I am able to listen better and understand. 
I think it's also helped me establish relationships with those in my community who are psychologists and counselors and I have a great network of clinicians that I'm able to refer to because I feel like I'm able to recognize when they need to be referred on to a sex therapist or a pain psychologist or any of those other clinicians in the community that can then put all the pieces together. 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. This might be backing it up a little bit. But can you give us a brief education on general pelvic health, especially if pelvic floor is a brand new term to someone listening? [00:07:17] 
Tracey LeGrand: Well, everybody has a pelvic floor, but if it's working well, you may not ever think about your pelvic floor muscles. But it's actually a very important part of your body. Your pelvic floor, basically, you have muscles that go from your pubic bone to your tailbone. There's actually three layers of muscle that make up the pelvic floor musculature. 
Your pelvic floor serves three very important purposes. First of all, it's a supportive structure, basically, so it is supporting very important organs. So it helps to support your bladder, helps to support your uterus if you're a female, it's supporting your rectum, your colon. So it's giving support to all of those pelvic organs. 
It is also very important for sexual function. Those muscles are a huge part of sexual pleasure and sexual functioning, so it's important that they continue to do their job during that aspect. Also, they help you maintain what's called continence. [00:08:19] So if your bladder is filling up with urine and you need to get to the bathroom, you want those muscles to be able to keep everything in so that you're not leaking or having an accident. Same thing with your bowel movements. 
Again, some of these things are kind of funny to talk about or uncomfortable to talk about. But you know what, if you're sitting in a meeting and you feel like you need to pass gas, you don't want to do that right in a crowd So it's those muscles that help you hold that back. 
Then also your pelvic floor is part of your core. People think of your core muscles as just your abdominal muscles. I've got to get my abs strong, that's my core. But really what I teach my patients is that your core is made up of a group of muscles that start at your diaphragm, go all the way down to those pelvic floor muscles, and everything in between. And they work together in a very coordinated way to give you postural stability and support and help you manage changes in intra-abdominal pressure if you're lifting or pushing or just picking up your kids. [00:09:22] 
Your pelvic floor muscles are functioning in those situations in a very important way. Very important muscles. But again, if you don't have to think about them, you may not realize that those muscles are important until something goes wrong. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that definitely makes sense. What are a few common issues related to the pelvic floor? 
Tracey LeGrand: Well, probably one of the most common things that I would say most people are familiar with would be urinary incontinence. So we've all seen the commercials on TV, Gotta Go, Gotta Go, or all the commercials for the Depends pads or the Poise pads, those types of things. 
So basically, urinary incontinence is leaking urine when you don't want to leak urine. So there's a few different categories of incontinence. You have what's called stress incontinence. So that's if you cough or sneeze or laugh really hard and you leak a little bit of urine during those types of activities. [00:10:20]  
Or a common thing, you know, a lot of women after having babies they come in like, "Oh, I can't jump on the trampoline anymore and play with my kids because I leak urine. I pee on myself when I do that. So that is stress incontinence. 
Urge incontinence is kind of like overactive bladder. So you feel the need to empty your bladder often throughout the day. You feel a lot of urgency, frequency, that type of thing. And then you can have a mixture of the two. That's probably one of the most common things I think that people would recognize. Again, your pelvic floor muscles are the muscles that help to control that. 
The other thing that's common but probably not talked about often, but with women after having children as they get further into live menopause, postmenopausal women with the pelvic organ prolapse can be a scary thing if you don't realize that that can happen. 
But again, those muscles are part of your support system. So as you have more babies, there can be a hereditary factor as well. [00:11:24] But as your support system weakens and ligaments get stretched during pregnancy and delivery, sometimes your pelvic organs like your bladder, your uterus can drop further down and sometimes can protrude and there can be like a bulge. Now that's a little scary but that can happen. And that's another reason why it's important to retrain your pelvic floor muscles like after pregnancy and delivering and those types of things. 
So there's so many different things. There's pelvic pain issues, which can involve a lot of different things. About one in four women have pelvic pain. Definitely the pelvic floor muscles can be a huge component when it comes to pelvic pain. 
I treat a lot of GI issues. So people don't think about constipation as involving the pelvic floor, but it has been shown that a lot of people who deal with chronic constipation, that a big component of that is their pelvic floor muscles not functioning properly. 
So there's a lot of conditions that can fall under the category of pelvic floor muscle dysfunction or just issues that can involve the pelvic floor. [00:12:32] So we could probably talk about each of these in a whole segment, but I guess that kind of summarizes a few of the main things that I treat anyways. 
Laura Dugger: That's very helpful. And maybe we can stay on a few of those for a little while further. Let's just start with pregnancy-related pain. What are the pelvic implications of pregnancy? 
Tracey LeGrand: Definitely any woman who has been pregnant and gone through pregnancy and delivery, you know how drastically your body changes for the baby to grow. Your body has to basically accommodate that growth in the uterus and the baby. 
So your pelvic floor muscles, again, part of your support system. Just think about as you're growing, the baby's growing, all of that pressure that the pelvic floor is having to adjust to and hold up against just during the changes of pregnancy. Your abdominal muscles get stretched out as well. [00:13:31] 
I often talk to patients about the changes that happen during a vaginal birth and say, you know, there's no other muscle group in your body that's asked to be stretched quite like the pelvic floor muscles during a vaginal delivery. Ultimately it's amazing how much the body does recover after that. 
But definitely after pregnancy and delivery there needs to be some retraining of those muscles because they've been stretched, they've been weakened with the whole process. Sometimes the incontinence, pelvic organ prolapse, those types of things can just begin right after going through the process of pregnancy and delivery. 
But then also during pregnancy, every pregnant woman has kind of felt her back aches a little bit more as she gets further along into her pregnancy because those muscles are having to kind of compensate and adjust to all the changes in her weight.
You know, women can have pelvic girdle pain. [00:14:31] And sometimes the pain, maybe they can adjust to it or they can kind of deal with it, but then sometimes the pain can become so severe so that they can't walk without sharp pain into their buttock or into their pubic area or their pelvic bone.
So there are a lot of conditions that can develop during pregnancy that can definitely be helped with physical therapy to help with the pain issues during pregnancy. Then I love treating my postpartum women. If I can get them six to eight weeks right after having their baby, really start doing some good training for their pelvic floor and their abdominal muscles, it would be a very, very important thing. 
I really think, for every woman to go through that, but unfortunately in our country, you know, that's not the norm. Women after six weeks, you know, they're cleared, "Oh, everything's good. You're good. Go back to doing life. No issues. Good return to intercourse." 
And then sometimes, you know, they don't realize that they're kind of vulnerable during that time, and that the changes of their body, they need to kind of work to reestablish good core control, good pelvic floor muscle control, and all of those things. [00:15:40] 
Laura Dugger: Let's talk about that woman then that is about to deliver, let's say, and she's going to set up a meeting with her physical therapist, or if they're in Lexington, Kentucky, they could reach out to you. But what would that treatment look like for those six to eight weeks? 
Tracey LeGrand: As a pelvic floor physical therapist, I check the pelvic floor muscles. So once they've been cleared by their physician, I do a pelvic exam for me to be able to assess their pelvic floor muscles, their strength, their muscle tone, if they're recruiting those muscles correctly. I need to be able to assess the muscles. 
So I will do a pelvic exam and I will check their muscle function, have them contract their muscles, check their muscle tone, screen for signs of prolapse as well. Then I will just start my process of teaching them how to properly recruit the pelvic floor muscles and how to coordinate those muscles appropriately. [00:16:43] 
I do something called biofeedback treatment, if necessary, where I can actually hook their muscles up to a computer and as I am retraining them to recruit their muscles the right way. They're actually able to see that muscle contraction on the screen. So it helps them. 
How I describe that is it's helping them connect brain to body because those muscles are hidden, right? I can watch someone and watch their quad muscle contract or their bicep muscle contract. But the pelvic floor is a little bit different. Those muscles are hidden. There's a lot of misinformation about it. How to do a Kegel, or how to do a pelvic floor exercise. 
So I really spend a lot of time just educating my patients on what a proper contraction looks like, how to breathe, and how to coordinate their muscle contraction with the appropriate breath. So it helps, I think, when they've got that visual feedback on the monitor as we're kind of going through those types of treatments. [00:17:47] 
So then I just progress them depending on what I find, progress them through appropriate exercises. And then sometimes, you know, right after pregnancy, depending on what happened during the vaginal birth, sometimes women have episiotomies where they tear and they've had stitching, and so sometimes that's also a time when women will discover that intercourse has become painful. 
When they're given the clear to return to sexual intercourse, yes, everything's healed, everything looks fine, but then they attend intercourse for the first time and they are definitely surprised that there is pain associated with that. And sometimes that can just be where scar tissue has formed if they had to be stitched up and those muscles and tissues just aren't as elastic. So there needs to be some work to help that. 
And that can be very easily treated with physical therapy and some of the treatments that I do. Unfortunately, I've had women come in a year or two postpartum that are still having pain with intercourse and very easily could have been helped very sooner in the process. [00:18:52] 
Laura Dugger: But that's so good to know because it sounds like... I think what you're saying is it's never too late, but you would definitely recommend starting early if somebody is having that symptom. 
Tracey LeGrand: And I think just understanding that there is something. Because women recognize that their bodies have changed and you know, there's a lot of things that are going on in that postpartum period. So they're trying to reestablish their balance too. 
Sometimes I think it's just a lack of knowledge of realizing that, okay, I am having pain. I know I don't want to have pain, but okay, I guess it will get better with time. And then it just never does. And then maybe they're embarrassed to ask their physician about it. So it can develop into this cycle of pain that definitely the sooner that it's treated, the better. 
Laura Dugger: I'm curious, is this just recommended for clients who have had a vaginal delivery, or do women who have had a cesarean section also need this retraining? [00:19:55] 
Tracey LeGrand: Oh absolutely. So when you're talking about women who have had a c-section now you have your abdominal muscles have been cut in two and then also they have scar tissue that forms. I mean naturally anytime you have a surgical procedure you're going to have scar tissue. That's just a normal part of healing. 
But it can be helpful to teach them how to do scar mobilization to help that heal better, to allow the tissues and the muscles to have the appropriate liability. 
And even though they didn't have a vaginal birth still, research has shown that women even after C-section can also have pain with intercourse, and still they've carried those babies for nine months so they also need to retrain their core muscles appropriately. 
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Laura Dugger: Let's move on to a little bit broader topic. Who struggles with chronic pelvic pain? 
Tracey LeGrand: One in four women will experience chronic pelvic pain. Chronic pelvic pain usually equals complex pain, right, and often involves a lot of different systems. So the urinary system can be involved, the GI system, the muscular system. There can be a lot of systems involved. 
There's a lot of different diagnoses that kind of fit under the title of chronic pelvic pain. So that could be women who have struggled with endometriosis, there is a condition called painful bladder syndrome or interstitial cystitis. And sometimes it becomes chronic. Maybe they started experiencing pelvic girdle pain during pregnancy. [00:22:55] And then that pain just continued on after delivery. It didn't necessarily go away and it just then kind of turned into a chronic condition. 
Women and men who have chronic constipation issues can develop chronic pelvic floor pain and abdominal pain and those types of things. So it can involve a lot of different things. Some of the sexual pain disorders would also fall into chronic pelvic pain. They're kind of some big names, vestibulodynia, vaginismus. There's a lot of different things. 
Laura Dugger: If somebody is listening to this, if they've never heard anybody speak on this topic before, and they're relating to what you're saying, what are some symptoms that they might identify with and know that they need to schedule an appointment? 
Tracey LeGrand: That can involve a lot of different things. I would definitely say, let's kind of take constipation, for instance. [00:23:55] That's a common problem, actually, and a lot of women deal with constipation. And yes, it's true, probably need to get more fiber or water intake, that type of thing. 
But if it becomes a problem where they are having abdominal pain, when they try to have a bowel movement, they have to push and they have to strain, which sometimes can lead to hemorrhoids and just pain in general, those are signs that, okay, if they're having to push and strain and they can tell that those muscles, maybe they don't really recognize that it's a muscular problem, but they can just tell that things are just not coming out very well, that would definitely be assigned to check in with their family physician and then maybe go through the appropriate referrals. 
Maybe they need to go to a GI doctor and just have everything checked out and then educate themselves. And definitely physical therapy can help with a lot of those types of things. 
Then when it comes to just pelvic pain in general, pain with intercourse, what has been found is that women with chronic pelvic pain, 90% of them will have painful intercourse. [00:25:02] So sometimes that can just be the first thing that, oh, okay, this is not comfortable, my muscles feel really tight, the penetration is very painful, or they're just feeling a lot of pressure or maybe deep pain in their pelvic area during thrusting and those types of things. So there can be those types of changes. 
Pain with intercourse, most of the time, can indicate some issues with the pelvic floor muscles. So those would definitely be signs that I would say, yeah, don't wait. Seek out some more assessment from either their OB or their family physician. 
Laura Dugger: That's great. I'm sure somebody is feeling very encouraged or motivated to schedule an appointment, and it sounds like with treatment, there's hope. That you're saying these symptoms are treatable and it can get better. Is that right? 
Tracey LeGrand: Yes. [00:26:02] And that is the one thing that keeps me going with my practice actually is just I love being able to offer hope to these people who a lot of times come into my practice. Unfortunately, research has shown that women who deal with some of these chronic pain conditions, it can take up to six to eight years from going from physician to physician to get a proper diagnosis or to get finally sent to the right person to kind of get them the help that they need. And that's unfortunate. 
Really I think there's just more education that needs to be done. There are a lot of providers who specialize in treating pelvic pain issues. Plus these issues are sensitive and sometimes they go underreported because the patient doesn't feel comfortable bringing up pain with intercourse or leaking or whatever or constipation. [00:27:04] 
So sometimes it's just a matter of they don't have the courage sometimes to bring up these issues or they feel rushed. You know, unfortunately, in our medical system today, physicians are pushed to see a lot of patients. So these types of issues take a lot of time to be able to talk through. So sometimes maybe it's just that they aren't being given the time to discuss these issues. But there's hope. 
Even when patients show up at my office, if that's the first thing I can offer them is I can help you with this... because most of these issues there's muscular changes. If it's the physical aspect that as a physical therapist I can definitely help them but we're mind-body-spirit, right? 
So when you develop these chronic pain issues, it's very natural thing, especially if you feel hopeless or you don't understand it, then the fear sets in, then the anxiety sets in. [00:28:03] If you've been to multiple practitioners, providers, and you didn't feel like you got the information or the help that you needed, then you start to think, okay, well something must be wrong with me. Or sometimes physicians will leave patients to think, oh, this is all in your head or you know they're just given wrong information and so then those emotional issues start combining with the physical issue and then I get the feeling of hopelessness. 
So if I can, through education, a lot of times my first session with a patient can be over an hour because I think one of the most important things that I do for my patients is just to listen and allow them to share their story and get my Kleenex box out and let them cry and let them express. And they'll say, I'm so sorry, I don't mean to cry. I'm like, it's okay. 
They need to be able to have the space to express what they're feeling and how that's impacted their lives. [00:29:03] But when they finally hear someone say, Yes, I've treated this. Yes, this can be helped. That's why I do what I do. 
Laura Dugger: Is there anything we can be doing proactively to combat the likelihood of developing pelvic floor symptoms? 
Tracey LeGrand: First of all, I would just say education. I think that's coming around. I feel like in the last probably five or six years, there's been more the media. Like a lot of your major magazines have covered articles about pelvic floor dysfunction, pelvic floor problems and are shedding some light on even pelvic floor physical therapy. I think that it's coming around. 
But I think first of all just needs to start with women educating themselves and being more aware of what their pelvic floor is and why their pelvic floor is important. And then asking the right questions. 
And then if their physician doesn't recommend physical therapy after having a baby, they request it or they ask if they can be referred. [00:30:09] It kind of depends on what state you live in. Kentucky is a what's called a direct access state. So technically, I don't need a referral to treat patients unless their insurance provider requires it. Medicare requires a physician's referral. But still, I think it's good to have the physician in the loop. 
I think women just being more proactive in asking and understanding. You know, I hesitate. There are some good groups out there where you can get information, but then there are some that are not so good. So I hesitate to say, oh yes, you need to do your Kegel exercises, which can be good, but then sometimes it just depends on what's going on. 
Like women who have chronic pelvic pain, a lot of times their issue is that they are holding too much tension in their pelvic floor muscles. So a lot of times I have to work with them on just learning how to let their pelvic floor muscles relax and then we can restore proper coordination and work towards strengthening. [00:31:13] So it's not always as easy as do your Kegel exercises because sometimes that can make the condition worse. 
I guess the best thing that I would say is just if you're listening today, if this has piqued your interest, I can give some good referrals to some articles or blogs if you want to attach it to this segment that people can maybe refer to. 
But then if you have more questions, ask. There's lots of great pelvic floor, even though we're kind of still a small group, there's lots of amazing pelvic floor physical therapists all over the world and we have a great referral source. I have found people therapists in Canada. I have found people therapists in different states. So ask and I can definitely get someone pointed in the right direction. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for offering that. That would be wonderful. We will definitely link to some of those articles in the show notes. For those listeners who are lucky enough to be local to Kentucky, can you tell us where they can contact you for further information or set up an appointment? [00:32:18] 
Tracey LeGrand: I am in Lexington, Kentucky. Again, my practice name is Cornerstone Pelvic Health and Wellness. I have a website, cornerstonepelvichealth.com. I have a Facebook page, Cornerstone Pelvic Health and Wellness. So you could start there and get my contact information. I'm very accessible by email. Small practice, so often I will have people who find my information online and they have questions and they'll email me. Most of the time I get back in touch with people in a very timely manner. 
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Well, one final thing before we go today. We got our name, The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" can be defined as practical knowledge or insight. And we would love to hear your unique applicable tips. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Tracey LeGrand: I'm gonna have to say the Squatty Potty. [00:33:17] So some people may not have heard about this, but there are all sorts of funny videos about the Squatty Potty. You can YouTube it. So Google Squatty Potty and look at the funny YouTube videos. 
But basically what a Squatty Potty is, is basically like a stool that you can put underneath around your toilet, and then you pull it out when you are ready to have a bowel movement, all these wonderful things we're talking about today, and you put your feet up on it, which everybody thinks that's so funny, but if you think back before the invention of toilets, everybody used to squat to eliminate. And anatomically that is the best position because it opens up your pelvic floor muscles and anatomically allows things just to come out easier. So I recommend the Squatty Potty to all of my patients. 
Actually, I sing on my praise team at my church, and I have gotten everybody on my praise team using a Squatty Potty. [00:34:20] It's funny in the beginning, but it makes such a big difference. I have one in my office bathroom for patients. I keep a couple at my house. 
My poor children are probably going to grow up traumatized because of what their mother does. But they know all about the squatty potty because it just allows your muscles to do what they're supposed to do when you are needing to have a bowel movement. So as funny as that may seem, I think that that is a great thing for everybody to go and look up and consider getting a squatty potty.
Laura Dugger: That's amazing. I love it. Thank you for sharing. Tracey, I just want to say again, thank you for your time. You're so approachable and easy to chat with. And I know that listeners have very much benefited from all that you shared today. So thank you for joining us. 
Tracey LeGrand: Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate you inviting me. [00:35:21] 
Laura Dugger: Hey, friends, we've purchased a resource that we think you might find helpful after listening to today's content. It's actually authored by our previous guests, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner, and it's titled, Restoring the Pleasure. We would love to give away a copy to a listener today, so just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "Giveaways" tab for more information. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:36:21] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:37:22] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:38:24] 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.