*The Savvy Sauce*

37 Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal Development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson

37. Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal Development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Matthew 6:33 (KJV) “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” 
 
Jeff Henderson is an entrepreneur, speaker, pastor and business leader. For the past 15 years, he has helped lead two of North Point Ministries multi-site locations in Atlanta, Georgia - Buckhead Church and Gwinnett Church. He also helped launch North Point Online which now reaches over 200,000 people. He is the founder of several organizations including Champion Tribes, a rite-of passage experience for fathers with middle school sons; Preaching Rocket, an online coaching program with over 20,000 participants; Launch Youniversity, a podcast for entrepreneurs; and the FOR Company, helping businesses and non-profit organizations grow. Jeff was recently named by Forbes Magazine as one of the 20 speakers you shouldn’t miss. Prior to working as a pastor, Jeff started his career in marketing with the Atlanta Braves, Callaway Gardens, Lake Lanier Islands and Chick-fil-A Inc., where he led the company’s regional and beverage marketing strategies. Jeff and his wife Wendy have been married 22 years and have a daughter, Jesse, and a son, Cole. 
 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Jeff’s Website
Champion Tribes
Launch Youniversity
Gwinnett Church
Connect with Jeff on Instagram @jefferyhenderson or @gwinnettchurch
Look for Jeff’s upcoming book release on Oct 1st (FOR: How 2 questions can grow your business and change your life)
 
Jeff’s Recommended Book List:
Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday
Draw the Circle by Mark Batterson
High Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard
 
Jeff’s Notes on Good Reads
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:19]
 
Laura Dugger: This episode was made possible by an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank. They paid the sponsorship fee to help spread the word that Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 
 
If you would like to learn more about Midwest Food Bank, make a donation, or see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 
 
Today I have a very special guest to share with you. Jeff Henderson is a pastor, podcaster, and author who lives near Atlanta, Georgia. Jeff was recently named by Forbes magazine as one of the 20 speakers you shouldn't miss. 
 
When my husband and I lived in Atlanta, Jeff was our campus pastor at one of Andy Stanley's satellite locations. There were thousands who regularly attended Jeff's campus each week, yet when I was baptized there, I received a handwritten letter from Jeff in the mail. That is a small example of the intentional and thoughtful leader Jeff is. 
 
Today he's going to share how he lives intentionally. Here's our chat. [00:01:37]  
 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Jeff! 
 
Jeff Henderson: Laura, it's great to be with you. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for letting me invade The Savvy Sauce. I love it. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Well, we're so glad to welcome you. Many people already know who you are, but for any of the listeners who are unfamiliar with you, can you just share a bit about your story? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Sure. I'm the lead pastor at Gwinnett Church, which is part of North Point Ministries. We started Gwinnett Church seven years ago. And Gwinnett's a suburb of Atlanta, so I've lived here most of my life. My wife and I went to high school in Gwinnett, so we're pretty boring. We haven't really strayed far from home. 
 
But before that, I was the lead pastor at Buckhead Church, which is North Point Ministries' first multi-site campus. And this is where you and I have some similarities, Laura. Before that I worked in marketing at Chick-fil-A, so I spent a number of years in marketing. 
 
My wife, Wendy, and I have been married for 22 years. We have a college sophomore, Jesse. She's nineteen and a high school junior. Cole, he's 17.  They're very involved here at church. My father-in-law asked my son how church was going, and he said, well, Mom's in guest services, Jesse works in elementary school ministry, I work in high school ministry, and Dad does nothing. So that was his perspective of kind of my job here at the church. [00:02:52] So they helped us start the church, and it's been fun. But that's a little bit of the Henderson story. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. Even that brief little introduction and then hearing you speak in the past, it just seems like you are such an intentional family man. So, first, how do you keep your marriage a high priority in your life? 
 
Jeff Henderson: It's something I saw modeled for me, and Wendy saw this modeled for her as well. We have a lot of younger couples that we're mentoring now, and we just kind of laugh and say, You know what, we really don't have any excuse. We really saw marriage modeled really, really well. 
 
For me as a preacher's kid, I saw this. I worked in church for a number of years, but he did everything from Wednesday night service to Sunday morning, Sunday night hospital visits, care ministry, fundraiser, all that kind of stuff. But he never let that overcome his most important role as being the husband to my mom and our dad. [00:03:46] 
 
I'm often reminded by a mentor of mine, John Woodall, will call me very frequently at the end of the day and say, "You're actually headed home to your most important ministry. You're not leaving your most important ministry. You're headed home to your most important ministry, which is to be the husband of Wendy and the father of Jesse and Cole." 
 
My friend and boss, Andy Stanley, says, "Hey, there's always going to be another pastor of Gwinnett Church. There's always going to be another pastor or another this person or Chick-fil-A operator, but there's only going to be the first husband to Wendy and the father to Jesse and Cole." 
 
So those roles are my most important ministry. I think the scriptures are really clear for husbands that we're charged to love our wives like Christ loved the church. That's the highest calling. We'll never get there, but that's the goal. That's the aim. So as a result of that, I can't let my ministry or work here overshadow my ministry as Wendy's husband and Jesse's and Cole's dad. So I never want to lose sight of that. Because at some point, I will no longer be here at Gwinnett Church, but I'll hopefully have their respect. My friend Mark Batterson says this, "I want to be famous in my home." That's where I want to be famous. [00:04:56] 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that quote. That's so good. You and your wife, Wendy, do seem to care so much about parenting. Did you have any certain goals that you aspired to achieve as you raised your children? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Ultimately, we wanted our kids to know Jesus, and we wanted to model that. That was goal number one. We also were very, I think, clear that our marriage and our family really are number one. Now, it's easy to say that, and it's hard to do. And there are seasons that it's just incredibly difficult. It doesn't mean that there aren't seasons where, you know what, you're at work more than maybe you're at home. 
 
But for us, one of our tactical things that would allow us to know whether we're trending a little bit more toward the busyness of life and not focus on our family is if we went three or four nights without having dinner together. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying for us, that was a warning light on the dashboard of our family going, you know what, we haven't had dinner together in four nights. 
 
And just that awareness... I know a lot of people travel. When I worked at Chick-fil-A, I traveled quite a bit. So I totally understand that world. So it may be something different. But for us, it was, you know what, we haven't had dinner together. So those times we're just really, really important. So we fought for quality time and we fought for quantity time. [00:06:15] 
 
Then we would make some decisions to go, you know what? There are some decisions we're going to make financially right now in this season that probably not great financially because we're going to sacrifice some money. But in order to sacrifice that money, what we're doing is we're actually building time with our family. 
 
So if you've got young kids, I would really encourage you to ask the question, What are you willing to sacrifice? And for us there were times where Wendy and I were willing to sacrifice financial opportunities but we weren't willing to long term sacrifice time with our family. 
 
So what are you willing to sacrifice as a family is a really important question to ask. So Wendy and I try to be on board with the answer to that question. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we were not willing to sacrifice consistent family time. 
 
Now, we're almost anti-nesters, so that's going to change now. And we're able to do a lot more now, and we're able to go and travel and do some things that we weren't able to do in those younger years. So I think that's a good question. What are you willing to sacrifice as a family? [00:07:20] So for us, that was in those early days that helped kind of steer and guide us to where we are today. 
 
Laura Dugger: You said you're almost empty nesters. As you reflect back on that time, were there any seasons either with your kids' stages or with you or your wife for work that were especially hard to fight for family time? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Yes. I would say seven years ago when we launched Gwinnett Church. Anytime you launch something... and I'm a starter. I like starting things, Laura. That's just kind of who I am. Starting Gwinnett Church was a difficult season because we went through a season where we just went through a lot of tragedy. 
 
My dad passed away. We had a five-year-old son of a staff person die of cancer. We had two of our staff members were hit by a drunk driver, one was killed. And then we had an intern two months after that, he was killed in just one car accident. So we went two months there was just this tragedy after tragedy and it just wrecked us from a grief standpoint. [00:08:24] But at the same time you're like, Hey, God's with us, and God's doing great thing, and then you're walking through this middle of tragedy. So it was really hard on our family emotionally. 
 
Then you've got all this pressure of trying to raise money and where we're going to meet and set up and tear down. And if you've got any listeners out there that are in portable churches, you totally understand that and you have my immense respect. 
 
So it was just really, really hard for us emotionally. But fortunately for us we have a group of people, you know, a small group around us, mentors, advisors that were really pouring into us and helped us get through that time. But those years were really, really tough.
 
Laura Dugger: No[00:09:04] 
 
Jeff Henderson: No. Everybody grieves differently and grief is a really odd thing in the sense that... Like when my dad passed away, you're like, Okay, Father's Day's coming, Father's Day coming, and you kind of build yourself up emotionally and you kind of get through Father's Day. But then you're watching a television commercial that comes out of nowhere and just kind of wrecks you, you know? So you try to plan and prepare for grief. 
 
I would say the most difficult thing was grieving and then also planting a church. Because you kinda have to have this positivity and enthusiasm while privately and personally you're really struggling because you've lost your hero, you've lost a staff person who was not only close to our staff, Celeste was a mentor to my daughter. 
 
So going through all this... and my kids are now experiencing really grief and death for the first time that they can really process it. So those are some difficult times. But I would say that we grew closer as a family because one of the things that we wanted to do, Laura, and I totally understand this, I'm an overprotective dad, I think we wanted to shield our kids from the grief and from real life. And that's a mistake. [00:10:09] You gotta let them understand, dad is grieving, mom is grieving, we lost your grandfather, we lost Celeste, we lost Julia, we lost Creed, let's deal with that. 
 
So I think inviting your kids into your grief and into your world won't take away your credibility as a parent. It'll teach them and let them know that, wow, mom and dad are actually real people. And it takes us a long time to actually realize our parents are actually real people. They're not superheroes. 
 
Laura Dugger: And leading with that transparency, I can't even imagine what that communicated and taught your children through such a difficult time. I guess it kind of ties into this next topic, because I have heard you speak on rest before. One time you even said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap. Will you just elaborate on the importance of rest? 
 
Jeff Henderson: I remember saying that in a message I did, and somebody told me that his wife leaned over to him after I said that, that the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap, and she said, "You're so spiritual." [00:11:12] 
 
I don't know if that was a compliment or not, but I do know this. Your life moves to a better place when you move at a sustainable pace. You can crash against this principle or you can leverage this principle of rest. And our mutual friend, Dan Cathy, the CEO of Chick-fil-A, I remember back in 2008, Dan's goal is to get eight in 2008. What he meant by that is I'm gonna get eight hours of sleep in 2008. 
 
I love that goal. But we have this mentality sometimes that rest is for the week. I disagree with that. Rest isn't for the weak. Rest is for the wise. I've noticed myself, Laura, that if I violate this principle, if I crash against this principle, my body will shut me down. It usually starts with a sore throat, and the next thing I know, I'm curled up on the couch sick. So either I'm going to shut myself down, or my body's going to shut myself down. And I don't want to get to that point. 
 
But I do know this: — and I think this isn't just true for me. I think it's true for you. I think it's true for all of our listeners today — we're better spouses when we're rested spouses, and we're better leaders and better business people when we're rested. [00:12:24] 
 
Now, you've got young kids, Laura, and I know our listeners out there that have young kids are like, yes, I would love to have rest, but my kid's getting up at three o'clock in the morning. So I totally understand that. I will give you some encouragement. This is a season. I totally understand that. 
 
But now we've got to the place where my wife and I will be on a Saturday morning saying, you think our kids are ever going to get up? It's like 12. So you're going to get plenty of sleep. So you may be in a season, but you got to fight for rest. This is true throughout the scriptures. 
 
Now, when anybody pushes against me on this, like, Oh, you know, I'm just so busy, I'm like, Okay, well, let me just give you a couple of examples. First of all, Jesus did this. Jesus was very intentional about this. I know we're all busy, but I don't think any one of us has won a world war like Winston Churchill did. But Winston Churchill was famous for taking a nap in the middle of the day every day, and yet he had to be a part of saving the world. 
 
I just really feel like this is a principle that you can leverage, your life moves to a better place when you move at a sustainable pace, or you can crash against it. But I just think the value of rest and giving yourself the permission to rest is one of the wisest things that you can do, not just for you, but for the people in your life. [00:13:31] 
 
Laura Dugger: That principle... would you repeat it one more time? It's so good. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Sure. Your life moves to a better place when you move at a sustainable pace. Again, that comes at different seasons. We're recording this in a very busy season in the life of our church. It's a busy season. We're six weeks away from launching a second Gwinnett Church location. 
 
So one of the things I've got to say and do is, okay, it's a very busy season, where can I make sure...? Am I going to bed at a good time? And if this is just too crazy of a time, when am I going to get past this season to be more restful? Because I know this, tired Jeff is cranky Jeff. And nobody wants to be around cranky Jeff. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's good to have a longer-term vision that it's not all about that day or that week, but looking at it more of a season. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Right. 
 
Laura Dugger: You're so heavily involved... We've talked about your family, community, you're involved in your church, and yet it seems like you make time to consistently challenge yourself to be stretched. So why is personal growth such a value of yours? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Well, I think it's a stewardship issue. I think at some point we're going to stand before God and give an account of what did you do with your gifts, what did you do with your talents. As I mentioned earlier, I've been blessed with two amazing parents. 
 
In my role as a pastor, I hear stories of brokenness of people that did not have a great relationship with their mom or their dad and how that impacts them today. [00:14:56] And I've realized during these years of having those conversations that I had a great mom and a great dad. Well, that's cool. But that's a stewardship issue, all right? So how are you going to steward the lessons and the love and the guidance and the wisdom that your parents gave you? 
 
Not only that. I've been fortunate to know incredible people like Truett Cathy, the late founder of Chick-fil-A. I've had the incredible privilege of working closely with Andy Stanley, one of the best communicators and leaders around. Well, those are stewardship opportunities, and I can't take that for granted. 
 
So I feel a stewardship opportunity is I got to get better and I've got to grow. One of the things I learned at Chick-fil-A is never let the organization outgrow you. I just feel like it's one of the ways I worship the Lord is to say, I'm getting better. Here's my improvement plan.
 
Truett taught me the two ways people improve are the books you read and the people you interact with. There are lots of other ways, but those are two really great ones to have. I have a book list every year. I encourage our staff to have a book list. I've challenged our staff. I'm the oldest person on staff here, but I've told our team, no one will read more books than me this year on our team. And I'm not saying that from a bragging standpoint. I'm saying this is my commitment to you. I'm not going to let this place outgrow me. I've got to keep growing, and I'm going to surround myself with people who challenge me.
 
It's one of the reasons I get together consistently with David Farmer and Shane Benson, who I met at Chick-fil-A 20 years ago. They're constantly challenging me. They're constantly thinking in new ways, and so that's allowing me to get better. [00:16:25] 
 
I really do believe personal growth is not only a stewardship issue. I also think it's an act of worship. Many times we think worship is just exclusive to music. That couldn't be further from the truth. If someone were to ask me, what's your personal development plan, what's your growth plan, I want to be able to show them here on my phone, here's what I'm doing to get better. I think that's an act of worship. 
 
Laura Dugger: And that's kind of like the parable of the talents of what God has entrusted us with. We're responsible to do our part to help that grow. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Absolutely.
 
Laura Dugger: You mentioned you have a long list of things that you want to read. Was there anything, as you look back over the past 12 months, any books that you would recommend to our listeners? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Yeah. Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday is a great, fantastic read. Now, I will tell you, it's not a Christian book. So you'll see some language in there. But Ego is the Enemy is a fantastic book, and it's a short book. [00:17:20] Laura, it's one of those rare books that I've actually read three times. And part of it is I feel like I gotta remind myself, the biggest enemy in my life right now is my own ego. I am the biggest obstacle of my growth. 
 
I would also encourage our listeners to read Draw the Circle by Mark Batterson. That's another book that I'm probably on my fifth reading. That's a 40-day prayer journey. We're currently praying through that as we launch this second location at Gwinnett Church. 
 
And I would say a book that I'm almost done with by Brendon Burchard is High Performance Habits. So what Brendan has done is he has studied high performers and tried to distill down their six habits. And that's what this book is about, high-performance habits. 
 
So I could keep going on and on, but those are three that have really had an impact. Two of which I've already read before, but they're so good, I'm continuing to read them. 
 
Laura Dugger: Just out of curiosity, what is your typical goal for amount of books that you complete in one year? 
 
Jeff Henderson: It really depends, but this year was 30 books. That's actually a little bit lower than the previous year because we're in the process of launching this church. I kind of wanted to kind of balance out a little bit. 
 
But the other thing is, is people ask me what's the best book that I've read and I would say it depends. Because I remember one time, Laura, I was showing my wife my book list and she said, "Huh, all these books are about leadership and not about marriage." [00:18:40] So then I went to the shop to get some marriage books. 
 
So basically, I think you need to have a well-rounded... There needs to be some biographies, some autobiographies, some books on marriage, parenting, finances, and leadership and organizations, because I was just trending all toward organizations and leadership. So that's kind of the direction. 
 
The other thing I would encourage people to do is to have... there's something called goodreads.com, which I'm sure some of our listeners are familiar with. Once I'm done with a book, I'll just post a lot of my notes on Goodreads. And what's good about that is I'll come across a situation, and I'll go, "Oh, I remember that book I read, but I can't remember exactly what was the takeaway." So I'll just go to my Goodreads page, search that book, look at my notes, and find that lesson that I read. 
 
So that allows me to keep the learnings that I'm having in a place that I can leverage months or sometimes years from now. I'm like, "Oh, I read that book, Leadership Challenge, but I can't remember what that particular point was. So I go to my Goodreads page and I find it and so I'm able to access it. [00:19:42] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's a good practical tip. Do you take those notes as you're writing or do you sit down at the end of a book and just write a one-page summary? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Sometimes if it's a tactile book like an actual book, not an e-book, so I'll write and just dog ear and then on the inside front cover, I'll write everything down. But with an e-book, it's easier. Obviously, you can just kind of highlight and then I go back through those highlights and just kind of cut and paste and put in there. But I don't want to get to an end of a book and not have any notes unless it's not that great of a book. But there's always something that you can kind of take away from. 
 
And it's also an opportunity for me, for people to say, hey, is there a book about marriage? Yeah, there's a book about marriage. What did you learn? Well, just go to my Goodreads page, search that book, and you'll find my notes there. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, so helpful. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. [00:20:48] 
 
Over $11.5 million worth of food is distributed to over 1,700 nonprofit organizations each month. In 2017 alone, over 132,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings worldwide. More than 3.6 million people were impacted last year. This is done from their eight United States and two international locations. 
 
To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 
 
Laura Dugger: What other practices do you have in place right now to ensure that you don't neglect your own personal development? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Well, I would say the number one goal that I have before I go into any week is to have what I call kind of a planning session or a weekly focus. This is something I learned from a friend of mine, Tommy Newberry. He gave me this document probably 20 years ago. 
 
Basically, it's an opportunity to reflect back on the previous week and how did you do in physical disciplines, spiritual disciplines, your marriage, your finances, all of that. And then put the most important projects of the week and then your strategic relationships that you need to focus on for the week. Is there a clutter project you want to knock out this week, you need to clean out the car, closet, or do something financially, what are you gonna read, what’s your reading plan this week? [00:22:27] 
 
But at the end of this little document, it ask you this question: what needs to happen this week for it to be successful? And at least three blanks. In those three blanks you write in to determine what you need to do before the week start so when the week ends you look back and say I did these three things. 
 
When I go into Monday having that planned out and knowing that the top three goals for this week are these three things, it does what Stephen Covey used to say when he had the rock in the jar example. I don't know if you ever saw that. But he had all these activities and he couldn't get everything in this big jar. And so he dumps everything out and he says, let me show you how you get everything in this jar. 
 
So he puts the big rocks in first and then he puts all the small rocks in and everything fits. His point was, Get the big rocks, determine what the big rocks are and all the other things will take care of themselves. That's what I've found that's happened. [00:23:27] 
 
So the weekly focus for me I'll do it on Sunday night. It's just helpful for me to go into the week before I hit the ground running on Monday morning, here's what I got to get done. The weeks that I don't do this I just am kind of a victim to what's happening that week and kind of a victim to the urgency and of what may come up. So when I don't do this, I just don't feel as focused as when I do this. So that's a really important process for me to make sure that I'm planning each week before the week arrives. 
 
Laura Dugger: I feel like this is an episode I'm just going to go back to and listen over and over again. There's so many tips. And Jeff, it just seems like you have these spiritual principles and scripture ingrained in you, and then you're kind of showing us how to live it out, because I just keep thinking, Matthew 6:33 while you're talking about, seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you. 
 
Jeff Henderson: That's right. 
 
Laura Dugger: Jeff, you're just such an incredibly humble leader. There's a story that I think many listeners would love to hear. [00:24:30] So can you share why you used to keep a Chick-fil-A plush cow on your desk? 
 
Jeff Henderson: So you're really going to bring this up, Laura? 
 
Laura Dugger: My husband and I can't get enough of this story. 
 
Jeff Henderson: I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Well, I'll try to make this as brief as possible. But part of my role at Chick-fil-A was I managed the regional marketing for Chick-fil-A. At the time, Chick-fil-A was mainly a regional brand in the southeastern United States. 
 
So one of the things we did is we were very involved in college sports, and Chick-fil-A sponsored a college football game called the Chick-fil-A Peach Bowl. So as our team was planning for this, I was in the Georgia Dome, which we recently blew up in Atlanta, because we've built more stadiums and we've won professional championships here in Atlanta. So the game is no longer played there, it's played in Mercedes-Benz Stadium. 
 
But I sat down, and this was in the summer, the game's in the end of the year, and I just thought, "How could we create a great moment for fans to interact with the Chick-fil-A brand so that they would eat more chicken?" And I noticed a cup holder at the seat and I thought, "You know what? What if we just put one of those Chick-fil-A eat more chicken plush cows in all the cup holders? [00:25:33] But the problem was I didn't have money in my marketing budget to do that but I knew someone who did have the money. His name was Truett Cathy. He didn't invent the chicken, he invented the chicken sandwich. 
 
I got my car, drove back to the home office, Truett was in that day, walked up, knocked on the door and told him my idea. And I said, "But I don't have money in the budget to do this but I think you ought to pay for this personally." So pretty bold, you know. 
 
And Truett was an incredibly generous, humble, wonderful man, but he was very shrewd businessman, very, very sharp. So he had a lot of great questions. But finally, he said, "You think we ought to do this? I said, yes, sir. So he said, "All right, go for it." So I bought 72,000 cows. Fast forward to the end of the year... 
 
Now I got to figure out, Laura, how do I actually do this? How do I get 72,000 cows in all these cup holders? My wife, Wendy, says, You're wow, but you're not how. You have absolutely no idea how to do any of these ideas you come up with.
 
So long story short, day of the game, 72,000 cows are in the cup holders. It took like two and a half days to get them in. It's University of Georgia versus University of Virginia. The gates open. People come in. They get their cows. They're thrilled. I'm thinking, "This is awesome." How cool is this? Little did I know that the disaster was about to strike. [00:26:37] 
 
So Virginia scores first. They score again and before the end of the first quarter, it's 21 to nothing Virginia... And it's in the Georgia Dome and the University of Georgia fans and I'm a Georgia grad, we're all wondering if we're gonna get blown out. 
 
So they get the ball, they're heading down their end zone but an official drops a penalty flag basically ending the drive and there's a guy in the end zone. He looks at his cup holder and he sees his cow there and he's really, really frustrated. Georgia's down 21 to nothing, they just got a bad call so he takes his cow and he throws it onto the field. 
 
Guess what happens, Laura. 20,000 of his closest friends take their cows and they throw it on to the field and I'm standing in this press box and I see my marketing career flash before my eyes. They had to delay the game and sweep all the dead little cows off of the Georgia Dome field. And then ESPN... I know we've all had bad days at the office but my bad day was broadcast nationally on ESPN. And somebody on ESPN said, "Who is the marketing genius that came up with this idea?"
 
So I tell people that's how I got from being a marketing to a pastor. But the end of the story is my boss, David Salyers, came up to me and said... I thought he was gonna say, "You're fired." But he said, "There's an idea here," which is an important moment to pause and to note that you have two people looking at the same situation but coming to different conclusions. 
 
One of them, being me, I'm thinking this is a disaster. David looks at this and sees there's an opportunity here. His point was we were gonna get massive PR value out of this because the game is delayed, they were sweeping dead little cows off the field, the plush cows and he was right. The media values astronomical because of this happening. [00:28:19] 
 
We started getting phone calls of people apologizing because of Georgia fans throwing the cows on the field. But later that week, David got us all together and said, "Hey, what if we came up with a different idea to get the cows on the field for next year's game?
 
So what ended up doing is we ended up putting small little parachutes on the cows and we went up to the top of the Georgia Dome. And when the teams ran on the field we dumped thousands of parachuting cows on the field and into the stands. That was over 20 years ago, and it's become a tradition ever since. Not just in Atlanta, but in other Chick-fil-A events, the parachuting cows. 
 
In fact, as you know, Laura, if you go into the Chick-fil-A headquarters and you do the backstage tour and you go into the kind of the first room that you have that, where they welcome you, if you look up, you'll see parachuting cows or cows with parachutes on. 
 
Laura Dugger: You're right. I can visualize that room.
 
Jeff Henderson: I know where that idea came from. It came from what I thought was the worst day of my marketing career but actually it ended up being one of my best days in my marketing career. [00:29:23] But it all goes... So I would say this to your listeners. If you're facing a very difficult situation, personally or professionally and your thinking, "This is the final chapter of this story," it's not. I thought that died. 
 
The final chapter of the story is this is my final day at Chick-fil-A marketing. I would not know that 20 years ago when guests come to Chick-fil-A and their escort to this room that when guests look up they see the parachuting cows, and it's one of the things Chick-fil-A is known for in their sports marketing strategy. 
 
So I think that just goes to show a principle that God brings beauty out of ashes. So if you're in a season of ashes right now, God's bigger than the ashes. And I know you could say, well, Jeff, this cute little cow story it doesn't compare to what's currently going on in my life which I would totally agree with. You have to know in the moment that was a crushing blow to me because I felt like I had wasted Truett Cathy's money because most of the cows are now on the field.
 
So, if the story doesn't relate, because my story is kind of this cute little story, and your story is a health issue, a relationship issue, a job issue, I would just say the principle here still applies, that God does bring beauty out of ashes. [00:30:36] 
 
Laura Dugger: I think everybody can rest assured it's okay, you were not let go of your job, and like you said, you contributed so much to the marketing. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Well, not only that. David and I became closer friends. We were close friends at that point, but we became closer friends. Then a few months later, he invited me to a church leadership conference in Chicago, and it was at that leadership conference that God revealed to me that I was going to help start a church someday. So I trace all of that back to my friendship with David that was really solidified and cemented in that moment, that David didn't power up, didn't get mad. He said, "There's something here." And he showed that he still believed in me, even though he had every reason not to. 
 
So I wouldn't be here if it weren't for David Salyers. And so that was a bigger moment than just a marketing moment for me. 
 
Laura Dugger: And I think that just communicates so much hope to anyone listening, regardless of what their story is right now. I do think that everybody will learn from your stories. So I have one more that I would like for you to share. You had led a creative campaign for Gwinnett Church before it opened. Can you share that story with us too?
 
Jeff Henderson: Sure. Laura, so much of what I've experienced here, or tried to lead here, so much of it is learned from Chick-fil-A. And one of the questions I learned is, what do you want to be known for? And so when we started Gwinnett Church, we just began to ask the question, what do we want to be known for and what are we known for? [00:31:57] 
 
And so we weren't even started as a church. So we said, what is the church known for? And the church is known for a lot of great things. But for many people who aren't affiliated with a church, or they have a distance with a church, or church isn't on their category, many people are more familiar with what the church is against rather than what the church is for. 
 
In our brainstorming sessions of what we wanted to be about as a church, we said, well, okay, well, if that's true, and people in our community may know more about what the church is against rather than what the church is for, what do we want to be known for? And obviously, we want to be known for Jesus, but also for being for Gwinnett schools, for Gwinnett children, for Gwinnett businesses, for Gwinnett city officials. We wanted to let the community know in our county, Hey, we are here and we are for you. [00:32:42] 
 
One of the other questions we ask is, years from now if Gwinnett Church closed down, would the community even notice? So I said, I don't want us to close down, but if my dream would be if we said, you know what, it's been a great run, but we're going to close the door, we're going to sell the property, give all the money away, I would want the mayors of our county and cities and the school principals and parents and students to come knocking on our door and go, No, no, no, you can't close down because if you close down, the value that you are generating into our community right now will go away. We don't want that. 
 
I'll give you a quick example of this. One of the things we try to do is we try to talk more about the community than we do our church. And when I talk to businesses and I talk to churches, I encourage them to go to their Instagram page and count how many of their posts are about the business or church and how many are about the people in your community. And often it's nine to one or ten to zero. 
 
This week we actually promoted about a little cookie store and asked people to go buy cookies from them to help them have a great end of the year. [00:33:46] And we just got word this morning, Laura, that they sold $16,000 worth of cookies yesterday. It was their biggest day of business. And 100% of that were Gwinnett Church people coming in and going, Hey, I want to buy some cookies. So that was their biggest day of business. 
 
Now, here's the cool thing. They don't even go here but they have an appreciation for Gwinnett Church. I've just heard a few minutes ago that they're actually going to come here on Sunday. But that really wasn't the goal. I mean, if they come here on Sunday, that's awesome, but at the end of the day, we just want to be a value-add to the community because we are for Gwinnett. 
 
So the fun thing is that I've seen other churches adopt this, and I started experiencing this two years ago. I started getting coffee mugs in the mail. I got a church from Winnipeg in Canada that said, We're for Winnipeg. And then I got a hoodie that said, Hey, we're for Pittsburgh, and thanks for what y'all are doing. 
 
So for me, it's just so fun to see other churches trying to tell their community, hey, we are for you, and we want to be a value add to this community. Because for me, this is really built on the most famous Bible verse of them all, which starts with the word "for". For God so loved the world. That's our message. We gotta stay on that message. Just like Chick-fil-A wants to stay on "eat more chicken," we gotta stay on "for God so loved the world". [00:34:58] 
 
And so for us, one of the ways we interpret that and communicate that from a messaging standpoint is that we are for Gwinnett. Certainly, there are things that we are against. Absolutely. But we're going to land on what we're for more consistently. And we've seen that really be a catalyst for growth for our church. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And I think this principle "for" can be applied to anyone who's listening to their own business or even their family mission statement. So I love all these practical tips. 
 
By now, I'm sure that you've heard us talk about Patreon before. I just want to give a simple reminder of each of the levels of contribution available. For $2 per month, you're going to receive a free quarterly downloadable scripture card. 
 
For $5 a month, you get the perks of the $2 contribution plus access to extra podcasts that are only available to our patrons. For $20 a month, you get all of these incredible perks and one Savvy Sauce popsocket. We hope you consider joining today. Visit us at thesavvysauce.com and click on our "Patreon" tab for more information. Thanks for participating. [00:36:09] 
 
Jeff, listeners are probably loving this and wanting to hear more, and there are quite a few ways they can connect with you. Do you mind just sharing where you're at online? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Absolutely. I'd love for them to follow me on Instagram. It's Jefferey Henderson, J-E-F-F-E-R-Y. My mom named me after Thomas Jefferson, so that's how she spelled my name, J-E-F-F-E-R-Y, Jeffrey Henderson on Instagram. 
 
I'll soon be launching at jeffhenderson.com, so if it's not up, just hang with me, and then gwinnettchurch.org. And I would love for you to follow @Gwinnettchurch on Instagram, because you're going to see a lot of things that we're learning, and things that... Some things are working, some things are not, but it's kind of real-time in terms of trying to reach people in our community. 
 
As you know, my friends David Farmer and Shane Benson, we launched Launch Youniversity. And that's Launch Y-O-University and it's for entrepreneurs that are just trying to latch things. [00:37:05] 
 
Then finally for any parents that have middle schoolers, I would encourage you to check out championtribes.com. It's a right of passage journey that we help parents and dads, particularly with a middle school son, a 12-year-old that's transitioning into the teenage years, we help them in that transition because we feel like it's a missing milestone in our Western culture, that we aren't initiating in a more intentional way. And that's what you do here at The Savvy Sauce. You're very intentional.
 
What we want to do in this particular way is to help dads in particular transition their sons into the teenage years by giving them a blessing. ChampionTribes.com. Actually started by my friend and I, David Salyers. We actually started that last year at this time. So those are a few ways. 
 
Laura Dugger: We will link to all of these in the show notes. There's one more resource. It's not out yet, but will you tell us about your most recent project? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Sure. So I'm writing a book called For, F-O-R, and it's really kind of based on the For Gwinnett strategy that we've implemented. But really, it's based on the fact, Laura, that I've been blessed to work with two thriving organizations in some respects at the top of their fields, Chick-fil-A and North Point Ministries. [00:38:18] 
 
And I just thought that was a blessing until somebody convicted me and said, "You know what? It's not just a blessing. It's a stewardship opportunity. You should tell us what you learned." And I thought, Wow, you're right. A lot of people ask me, what's the biggest difference between Chick-fil-A and North Point working there? I said, well, the biggest difference is now I'm open on Sundays. Before Chick-fil-A, I was closed on Sundays. So that's kind of like the biggest difference. 
 
But what I've discovered is there are more similarities. And as I reflected on this, I feel like I discovered what made these two organizations grow. And then I began to apply it to other organizations, and I thought, Oh, that's what caused them to grow as well. So what For is, For helps organizations grow by asking two questions. And so that's what it's about. The subtitle is A Better Strategy for Work and Even Better Strategy for Life. 
 
And what I've discovered is that growing, thriving organizations have growing, thriving people. And so what I do in the book is I just tell people how these organizations grow and how you can grow your organization. Because I think we need more growing churches, I think we need more growing businesses, I think we need more growing nonprofit organizations. [00:39:23] Because if we have growing healthy organizations, we're going to have growing healthy communities. And growing healthy communities create growing healthy cities, and that's how you change the world. 
 
So that's what the book's about. It's called For and I'm very excited about it. So thanks for asking. 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes, I can't wait to get my hands on that in October. Maybe you can come back again closer to the launch date and we can feature more about the book. 
 
Jeff Henderson: I would love that. 
 
Laura Dugger: Listeners already know we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so Jeff, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Jeff Henderson: It's such a hard question, but it's such a great question. Because this is one of those questions, Laura, you're like, Oh, I should have said this. But let me just give you this. This is one of the first things my late mentor Steve Polk told me. He said, "Jeff, there's not a limit to what a person can do when she or he doesn't care who gets the credit." There's not a limit to what a person can do when he or she doesn't care who gets the credit. Don't worry about the credit. [00:40:24] If you aren't worried about that, there's not a limit to what you can do. And he was one of the most humble leaders that I've ever seen. And so I'm just trying to follow in his footsteps. 
 
So again, such a wonderful question, such a hard question to boil down to one thing, but I would say that, that there's not a limit to what you can do if you don't care who gets the credit. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's such a good challenge to end with. Jeff, you're just such an admirable leader. My husband, Mark, and I have looked up to you for years, and now I'm just so excited to share your wisdom with our audience. So thank you for giving us your time today.
 
Jeff Henderson: Absolutely, Laura. So honored to be here. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:41:33] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:42:48] 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:49] 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

36 Gender Differences and Common Relationship Conflict with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George

DISCLAIMER: This message contains some adult themes and is not recommended for little ears
 
36. Gender Differences and Common Conflict in Relationships with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Philippians 2:4 NIV “Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.” 
 
Vickie L. George, M.Ed., M.S., LMFT, LPC, CST is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, Certified Sex Therapist, and is an AAMFT Approved Supervisor, an Approved Clinical Supervisor (ACS) by CCE of the NBCC, and a Certified Professional Counselor Supervisor (CPCS) by the State of Georgia. She has a Master’s degree in counseling from Georgia State University, a Master’s degree in Christian Psychological Integration with a specialization in Sex Therapy from Richmont Graduate University (formerly the Psychological Studies Institute), and also has completed post-graduate work in marriage and family therapy training at the University of Georgia and training in supervision. Vickie has been counseling, teaching and consulting with several organizations since opening her practice in 1984. During her 30 plus years, she has gained extensive experience as she has helped clients work through difficult issues such as couple problems, sexual problems, addiction, abuse, women's issues, and examining spiritual issues.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Vickie’s Website
For Men Only and For Women Only by Shaunti Feldhahn
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
We have appreciated all your positive feedback, especially on these episodes where we've featured various Christian sex therapists. We're going to do our best to keep interviewing more experts in this field. So definitely reach out to us if you have a particular person or topic in mind that you want to hear covered at The Savvy Sauce. Our general email address is the best place to reach us, and it's simply info@thesavvysauce.com. 
Due to the popularity of all those previous episodes, we are bringing on another Christian sex therapist today, Vickie George. I had the privilege of being supervised by Vickie while I was studying marriage and family therapy. Today the two of us are going to be discussing how to understand each gender a little bit better to enhance our enjoyment of the special relationships in our lives. [00:01:32] I am so very happy to get to share her with you today. 
Hello, Vickie. 
Vickie George: Hi, Laura. 
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you. It's great to join you today in your cozy office as we record near Atlanta, Georgia. Can you just start us off by giving us a brief snapshot of your life? 
Vickie George: Well, I was born a missionary kid for two years, my parents in Italy. But my father was in the ministry, worked with Billy Graham Association and also the Navigators. So, in essence, in many ways, I'm a preacher's kid. 
I was kind of called and felt the desire to be a therapist even at 13 years of age. So, I took everything in high school and college, and grad school that I could, and I've been a therapist for 35 years. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, licensed professional counselor, and also, a certified sex therapist, which I adore being all of the above.
Laura Dugger: And you are phenomenal at those. During my time in Atlanta, I very much enjoyed you as one of my supervisors. [00:02:39] So, I've always appreciated our special relationship. 
Vickie George: Well, good, because that is also one of the things that I am as a supervisor, and it's 30% of my practice. I adore being a supervisor and mentoring the next generation of therapists, marriage and family therapists, sex therapists, because there's such a great need for that across all ages, cultures, socioeconomic status in our country. 
Laura Dugger: You have a unique perspective. Do you mind just sharing ways that your faith intersects with your work? 
Vickie George: Well, I went to an integrative program for graduate school and so essentially have a degree in both psychology, counseling, and also in theology. So the marriage of those two together is my background. And that is what I bring into the counseling room, either directly or indirectly, depending on what my clients' needs are, what their desires are, how much they want that to be a part of it. [00:03:43] 
So if they need me to not talk about that, I can. And if they are needing the biblical counselor who can back up everything with what I'm saying, from scripture and biblical principles, I can do that too. And I can do it indirectly in the gospel, paraphrased according to Vickie George, to bring it into the room if I need to. 
Laura Dugger: Brings a lot of clarity. You often see a lot of males in your practice, and it seems that they feel safe opening up to you. Why do you think that is? 
Vickie George: I have always gotten along really well with males. My personality lends itself to quote-unquote some more traditionally male characteristics than just female. And so I think that also that I was gifted in that way besides my personality which of course we have from birth, so I'm claiming that fully. [00:04:42]  
My husband was a cop and also an athlete so I learned about men firsthand and from man's man. And just so often in our society now, it's troublesome being a male because we have swung as we've needed to from it was such a patriarchal society and allowing now for understanding more about women, etc., which is great and we've needed it. 
Well, anytime you swing from one extreme to the other, because that's how change takes place, then males have kind of gotten a bum rap and not understood. Everybody's trying to understand women, which we need, of course, but they have not really tried to understand males and where do they come from, what makes them tick, et cetera. 
So I wanted to know about that because I wanted to understand 50% of the population, especially that came into my practice, and so that I could connect with them and they would feel comfortable being in counseling, which is a hard gig for men anyway. The fact that they would feel understood by a female counselor was one of my goals, and I was on mission to make sure I learned how to do that well. [00:06:08] 
Laura Dugger: Love it. How did you learn how to do that well?
Vickie George: I started doing research and trying to get inside their minds and what is important to them and what's not and just the things that were so surprising that women do not think about or know. For instance, for males who want to take care of their family, especially financially, money is always running in the background. Always. Always. 
And so they will work more, especially as their family may grow, which then the wife so often, especially if she doesn't work outside the home, gets really frustrated because "you don't spend time with the family. We want you to be here more." Well, what he's doing is working more and harder so he can be providing for the family. So that is his way of trying to do family better that's misunderstood so often. That's just one example. [00:07:08] 
Another thing is that for most men, they view the family and their relationships as important, but work will be number one, because they are the ones who feel that responsibility for the most part. Now, I'm making some generalizations, of course. And then relationships will be second. 
Well, so often what we find in the way women are hardwired is that they will be first relationship and if they work outside the home, then that is going to be secondary to them. It's a part of who they are. It's not the whole of who they are. 
Well, if you think about that, work is number one and relationships are number two for men. For women, so often relationships are one and work would be second. But the thing here is we're not so far apart because they're still in the top two. 
Laura Dugger: And so maybe we have more in common than we would think. 
Vickie George: Yes. Yes, we do. And so the more that you try to understand, seek first to understand and then be understood. That's the way. [00:08:17] Getting inside what makes your spouse tick. And what is important to them? What do they value? Because, of course, 70% of the fights that couples have are usually the same ones over and over again. And that's because we're dealing with gender differences, personality style differences, and values differences. 
Values, for most couples, their morals are generally along the same line. And values can be, too. But, for instance, My husband valued baseball way more than I did, okay? So, once again, even if it's a value of what a hobby may be or something along that line, it's not a bad thing or a wrong thing. It's just what did they value more? For instance, a lot of males will value sports more than what a woman would. 
Laura Dugger: So taking that example, if that is a fight that you see in your office where the husband values sports a lot more and the wife doesn't as much, how do you begin to work with that to get them to celebrate that difference rather than resent it? [00:09:30] 
Vickie George: That's a good word of "how do we celebrate?". And I just say, viva la difference, because we complement each other. If we view the differences as a way to make a great team and to utilize those strengths or differences, etc. Like in a work setting, what makes a good team is not everybody being homogeneous. It's that they have different talents and so that makes up a good team in the business world. Anybody knows that in the business world. 
So why would marriage be any different? And the fact that God created it that way. Sometimes people will say, well, it feels like God's cruel joke. Well, it's not. It is a way to complement us and to grow us and mature us and to make us better people. 
Laura Dugger: You even mentioned that some of your personality traits you relate more masculine side. Could you share a few ways? Because maybe some people listening today are relating to that. [00:10:30] 
Vickie George: Generally speaking, males will be more direct in how they approach things and women a little more indirect. And that comes in many varieties in how they approach life. I am a very much more of an involved therapist and pretty direct. I work a lot with highly conflictual couples. I work a lot with addiction. So those populations require more of a directness and involvement with them, and so that traditionally is more male. 
Women will be a little more soft-peddled in how they may come across about something. If you are watching a group of men, they can be pretty direct and gruff about how something is. Women in a group will not be that direct or gruff. 
Laura Dugger: Okay. You also mentioned when you wanted to understand males more, you did some research. [00:11:39] Do you have any books that you would recommend or anything that helped you get inside their minds? 
Vickie George: Yes. Shaunti Feldhahn did a great book for both men and women. For instance, men are more visual. One of the stories she said that a man may notice a female in Home Depot, but even if they only saw her a split second, she still may be in his mind because he knows she's still in the store. Okay, well that does not register with a woman at all. That is literally a brain difference, gender difference between men and women. 
So women do not understand in our culture that is so sexually saturated the complete 24-7 assault on males with visual images that they have to fight. It's on every billboard, one click on your computer, with porn, etc. So, you know, the everyman's battle, there is truth to that. And women do not understand the nature of how impactful and how ongoing continuously that is. 
The other thing is women are more collaborative. Men are more competitive. The world of men is competition 24-7. There is never a break for men. It's who's the top dog. You can't show weakness, that's deadly in the world of men. Even among athletes, if one of them is hurt, the rest of the men will start distancing from them on the team in professional sports because it's almost like they're afraid of it impacting them or almost like we used to say when we were younger, cooties, getting on them or something so that they would not be able to perform as well. [00:13:32] So that's something that women don't think about and do, that there is never a break for men. 
Laura Dugger: That kind of leads me into another question because we do have a lot of female listeners. So how do you recommend that they apply this information in order to enjoy their relationship more with the man in their life? 
Vickie George: Well, one, just acknowledging that that is a thing for men and that we don't experience that and how much energy that must take. And appreciating of how they still try to do that, for instance, in the work world so that they are successful, so that then they can bring home the bacon and take care of their families. And so just appreciating. 
I know how hard it is out there, and you're beat up by the world every day when you go to work. I just want you to know how grateful I am that you do that. 
Laura Dugger: So expressing gratitude, just saying thank you, that could be a practical application today. [00:14:35] 
Vickie George: Yes, yes. 
Laura Dugger: Did you know podcasts like The Savvy Sauce are estimated to cost roughly $500 per episode to produce? This cost includes expenses such as equipment, web hosting, and programming, in addition to the many hours our team spends to bring you the high-quality episodes. 
Sponsors are not always consistent, and that gives you an opportunity to support conversations you love and make more possible. Our team is so delighted for the opportunity to do this work and get the good news to as many nations as possible. Will you consider partnering with us? Go to thesavvysauce.com and click the "Patreon" tab for more information. Thanks for participating. 
Well, you see a lot of couples. So what other gender differences do you see provoking conflict in couples? 
Vickie George: How men and women usually communicate. Women are taught to express their feelings so much more culturally. [00:15:34] Men are not. Once again, that's viewed as a weakness. They're not socialized that way. They know three things. I feel good. I feel bad. I feel angry. 
So, helping them understand what may be under those or expanding that in a very respectful way. Plenty of women have heard enough about respecting their husbands, etc. And if you want to know why all of a sudden he seemed fine and now he feels like he is totally enraged about something, very often is that he has felt disrespected in a way that a woman may not even be aware of. 
For instance, women ask questions. That's how they connect to get information. So, how's this? Or what's going on with this? Or what are you going to do? Or blah, blah, blah. That's women. For men, they don't ask questions. That's why people laugh. You didn't ask about their life and their kids and blah, blah, blah. You play golf for four hours? No, they don't because men bond around an activity, women usually around something around talking. That's a difference right there. [00:16:43] 
So, then when women ask men a lot of questions, then they feel like they are being put on trial or that they are not man enough to take care of business and you're having to drill them for information. So they will feel disrespected and that they are not man enough or you're not thinking that they are. That to women is like, are you kidding me? That's like a different universe. That has never entered my mind or never would enter my mind in a million years. That's the world of men. 
Laura Dugger: That they can feel interrogated by those questions. 
Vickie George: Yes, that's right. An interrogation of men when you are a wife never ever goes well. 
Laura Dugger: So then if that is the conflict that you see, so that's a misunderstanding. Her motives were very pure and yet it came across as disrespectful. How would you start to work through that situation? 
Vickie George: Well, one just letting women know that. And then they look at me with these big eyes and go, Well, then how do I ask a question? [00:17:56] How do I get information or whatever? Once again when you make things in the form of a statement, that you are pondering it or that you are wondering about it, we're thinking about it is a way to do it in respectfully so that they can think about it themselves and then come back in their timing. 
Laura Dugger: I love it. So let's use an example of two different ways that a wife could ask something about her husband, maybe getting to the same bottom line question that she has, but a helpful way to ask it and a way that may come across as disrespectful. I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, but let's use an example of she wants to know, did you pick up groceries? 
Vickie George: Yes. Groceries is a good one because I was just thinking about that. Have you ever had the experience where you've asked your husband to go to the grocery store to get something and they are very anxious? One, because they usually want to please you or do it right and that they are capable of picking up groceries for heaven's sake. [00:19:08] 
So if you ask a lot of questions or they did it wrong or what have you... because men once again whatever they do they want to do it well or they don't want to do it at all. So if they view that you didn't think they did it well enough something as simple as the grocery store, then they're not ever want to go to go back again. 
Now in our present era, I will make suggestions that can be helpful, like, whatever it is that you are wanting, do you have a picture of the label or the can or what have you so that he can take it to the grocery store to make sure that he gets the right one? Because you may have had texts or phone calls. Is it this? Is it this? You said, Pick up this. Well, there's 15 different types of varieties of this and then they're really frustrated just picking up, you know, canned tomatoes or whatever for chili or spaghetti. Does that make sense? 
Laura Dugger: It totally makes sense. Because let's just say she had an expectation. She wanted this one, but didn't communicate it. And so when he comes home, why did you choose that brand of tomatoes? 
Vickie George: Right. 
Laura Dugger: Instead of... 
Vickie George: "Oh, okay. Well, these tomatoes are great. I haven't used these before. I can either use them in this recipe or, you know, I'm going to save those for a different type of recipe and try out something else because I haven't used those before. [00:20:32] And for this one, actually, hmm, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I should have written out on the grocery list a little more clarification about what that was because there's 500 different varieties of tomatoes and brands and everything under the sun. So I will try to make sure that I'm a little more clear on that next time. So it's a way to still be respectful to them. 
And sometimes women will think like, Oh, my goodness, that seems like a lot of work. Well, if you're going to learn how to do anything well that you don't know how to do, it's going to be work. Whether you're a female trying to learn about males, we're just talking about that, or husbands trying to learn about their wives and females, it goes both ways because we are different. 
Laura Dugger: Totally, it will be difficult both sides. If anybody's feeling like, wow, we're putting the pressure on women, let's flip it and maybe give a practical example of how in a stereotypical gender difference situation. What are some practical things that the male can do that may seem hard, but honor, respect, or love his wife well? [00:21:42] 
Vickie George: When she asks to connect, for instance, at the end of the day... this is another one that's kind of fun. A wife may ask, how was your day? Well, men will give the good or bad or whatever, or I don't want to talk about it, especially if it's they don't want to relive things. They want to move to the next thing. Like work is done, let me be home, relaxed or whatever the case may be. 
For women, they want to talk about their day because that's a way to connect and the sharing. So they're looking for sharing from their husband and he's just wanting to answer the question and then move to the next thing, not to be disrespectful to her. 
So if he can learn to give her at least three sentences and/or if it's something, "Honey, it was a tiring day, and I really don't want to relive it," that's what a lot of men will say, "I don't want to relive it again" for her to be able to respect that. But for him to give at least, well this kind of happened with the boss, just a paragraph as opposed to either not answering the question or giving one or two words. [00:22:58] 
Most women will be, if you can give me three sentences to a paragraph, I will be okay. You know, instead of two pages that women will give to each other, is what I say, or men three words, can you find a middle ground of a paragraph? 
Laura Dugger: That's good. And even it reminds me some of our friends who are married the husband has said it means a lot to his wife and so he will just jot down in his phone... throughout the day he'll just take a few notes of what he's doing so he remembers for that paragraph later. 
Vickie George: This is where putting things in your notes to remind you. I have plenty of clients where the husband will be typing on his phone and he's not texting in session. Okay, because I won't allow that. But he is typing the notes so that he gets better at doing this and he can look at it as a reminder. [00:23:57] 
Laura Dugger: I love that. It ties into what you mentioned earlier, which we need to remember, they want to please us and I believe we want to please them too. So when we can assume the best of each other, that helps. How can we embrace these differences in a positive way to draw closer to one another? 
Vickie George: I really like trying to understand and get inside the head and the world of your spouse. The more that you make that and are intentional about that and learn about it, then you can start to value that. Once again, you have to be intentional about “this is what I'm doing,” and it's a way for us to connect and build a closer relationship. Because it's so natural for us to be all about ourselves, especially if we're stressed, because just life takes energy. So, it has to be an intentional thing that we do. 
And then when you find out about what makes the other one tick and their inner world, then either expressing that, what you enjoy about that, or valuing it. For instance, with my husband and valuing baseball, and he played very competitive softball, and going to games. [00:25:18] And that was so enjoyable for him and being a part of the crowd that I could get in his world and that meant the world to him. 
Okay, for me and music and theater and travel, that was really it for me. I remember him saying one time, my joy is watching your joy. That is really entering in to the world of the other that brings together a deep connection. It may not be your favorite thing. It may not be your thing at all. It's once again, what kind of an attitude do you have? It's important to you, so I'm going to value it because it's important to you. 
Just like you do with your children, hopefully, that you wouldn't want to play Barbies for three hours, but of course your daughter does, or the tea party, so you're gonna play it for, you know, maybe 15 minutes, that kind of thing. It's not about us all the time, you know. It's not about me. 
And I'm not talking about emptying yourself so that you have no sense of self, because that is not bringing health to any type of relationship. [00:26:33] It's both valuing you and me. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's beautifully said. What are some things that you teach or discuss with your clients to help the couple start working better together? 
Vickie George: Well, one is how they communicate because every couple that will call or want to come in for therapy says they have communication problems. Well, the communication problems, if you normalize and understand what gender differences are, okay, personality differences, I spend a lot of time. of what is their personality style and understanding that and what makes that particular personality tick. And when you understand that, then you either don't personalize it or you realize, Oh, that's them just being who they are with our personalities that we have from birth. 
Some people are thinking types on how they make decisions on the world. Some people are feeling types of how they make decisions on the world. Some people are extroverts. Some people are introverts. Extroverts get energy from being with people. Introverts, it takes energy. Introverts only need one to three friends. Extroverts want lots of friends. [00:27:43] 
Thinking types, they want to know and be able to give the reasoning on why they make something. Feeling types, they want it to feel right in their gut, what's important to them, and what they value. When you understand that, and bring those sorts of things together. Some like things more structured. They like to have a plan. Others like to leave things more open-ended. 
You can find out a lot even on that one if you go on vacation. Some who want to have the whole vacation planned out. The other ones will, well, I don't know, we'll get there and then we'll just kind of see. Those types of things. Knowing that and not taking it personal or getting agitated or angry about it. How do we have both of that? I'd like a plan, you'd like to leave things more open. How can we bring the two of those together that is either a middle ground or meets the needs for both of us? 
Laura Dugger: Okay, so I think I'm tracking with you. You're saying once you put language to that and you're on the same page, you're understanding each other's personality, then you can problem solve if there's a difference, okay, let's come together. [00:28:48] 
Vickie George: Right. And if you view it as we're a team, that's different, but we're still a team. And how do we solve whatever the issue or the problem or what it is that we're trying to make a decision? If you view it outside of yourself or outside of the two of you, instead of we're trying to solve each other... no, that never works. That's what ends up in my office. 
If we're on the same team and we're trying to solve, you know, A or B over here, so to speak, then it feels like a team and you come up with a solution. So you solve the solvable. The things that are not solvable are going to be... you're not going to change gender differences, you're not going to change someone's personality. So, that's an acceptance thing. It has to be an acceptance of the other for who they are and how they were created and born. [00:29:45] And if you don't, then you are trying to stamp out a sense of who that person is. And that's not healthy, that's not respecting, that's not godly in any form or fashion. 
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: So what is one simple thing someone can do today to begin moving their relationship in a better direction? 
Vickie George: Having an attitude of gratitude. We've heard this, but let's bring it down to something really practical. And it may sound kind of silly, but counting just three gratitudes in the morning when you're getting started. And brain research backs this up, that gratitude or positive is not our natural bent. More of the negative for protection is. 
Because critical thinking is about survival. We're going to remember scary bear for survival versus beautiful daffodils. So our automatic response is, where's the bear? Watching for the bear for protection, survival, whatever. And so the brain is naturally hardwired that way. To hardwire it for more positive interaction, it has to be intentional and literally creating positive neural pathways. 
So having an attitude of gratitude, meaning practical things that three things that you're grateful for in the morning and three things at night. Whether it's something that you have or that you're accomplished during the day or happened during the day, etc. [00:32:40] Those start to change the brain's neural pathways in a positive manner. 
And of course, if you share those with your children, your spouse, friends, whoever it is, that just enables the positive neural pathway to gain more traction, so to speak. 
Laura Dugger: What a cool challenge, if we all try this today, trying to look for the positive, you said having an attitude of gratitude, then if anything positive comes in our mind, challenging ourselves that we have to share it with that person and just watch what happens. 
Vickie George: And sometimes you may have to dig really deep. When you are in a very dark, dark, you know, time period in your life, stress happens, you know, life on life's terms happens, that can be a really hard or heavy time. That you may have to dig deep for things. 
At a time in my life that was a really tough time. I was like, I live in a country where I am not persecuted for my faith. I actually have food to eat and I am not enslaved like 27 million people in the world today and who may be persecuted to the point of death for their faith. [00:33:56] That's something to be grateful for that we have no clue about. That's a daily thing for other people in the world. 
So, sometimes it's just being in our world and being grateful for, and sometimes it's actually having to get outside of our world to think in terms of gratitude. 
Laura Dugger: To change your perspective. 
Vickie George: To change your perspective.
Laura Dugger: And you're not talking about a light situation. Do you mind sharing with everyone what that season was that was particularly difficult for you? 
Vickie George: One was when my husband years ago went through a transplant. And it was for a year. Literally, he could die at any moment. So that was an extremely stressful and dark time. He was very sick. Also, when I lost him two and a half years ago. And as a grieving widow that is a very dark time, and having to stretch really far for things that you are grateful for, when just grief itself, normal grief that happens in life and everybody has it at some point in life. [00:35:10] 
Grief is a great stealer. It feels like fear. It creates anxiety. It creates things that may not have been a part of your world and you're wondering and you feel like you are completely ripped in half. Those types of things where you can't help but be self-absorbed because the pain is great. And so to think outside of that takes some intentionality. But remember, little glimmers of light in the darkness of the sky still show up. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing. Switching gears here a little bit, I recommend counseling to pretty much everyone because I see so much value in the process and the outcome. So if a listener here is local today to Atlanta, Georgia, and they want to set up an appointment with you, how can they connect with you? 
Vickie George: They can go to my website, vickiegeorge.com, pretty simple, and one, they can find out more about me and to see if I might be the one that would be helpful for them. If I'm not, then I have been in this business a long time and know a lot of great therapists that I can also usually make recommendations. I have my phone number on there so they can give me a call. [00:36:29] 
I'm old fashioned in the way of since I am a marriage and family therapist and about relationship, I speak personally to anyone who calls for an appointment to answer their questions or speak to them directly so that if they come for counseling, we've already started some sort of connection and answering their questions or whatever the case may be that has a, quote-unquote, "personal touch". 
Laura Dugger: That's great. We will definitely link over to your website in our show notes. So anybody wanting to connect with Vickie, learn more about her, definitely check out that website. We'll have it listed there. 
As we conclude today, "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. So we would love to have some insight from your own life to inspire us with an action item that is practical and applicable. So what is your savvy sauce? 
Vickie George: Well, I kind of talked a little bit about the savvy sauce being the attitude of gratitude. But in having an attitude of gratitude, that usually implies, from my perspective, a movement in hope or joy, or fun or laughter. [00:37:41] 
So one of the things that also I say is laugh. Laugh often that changes the brain, it changes the environment that you're in. So, if you and your spouse can have a sense of humor and laugh at yourself, laugh at situations that may happen, but you realize you're going to get out of it and, oh my gosh, you know, we're in just a hot mess right now. 
But if you can have a sense of humor. And I'm not talking about laughing at the other, that is not what I'm saying. But laughter is healing to the soul, changes the chemistry of the brain. So laugh and laugh often. 
Laura Dugger: So good to end with today. Vickie, it's always energizing to chat with you. And if anybody spent time with you, they know that your laughter is contagious. So thank you for sharing so much with us today. 
Vickie George: You are more than welcome. [00:38:41] 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:39:46] 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:40:48] 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

35 Taking a Step Toward Your Goal, Dream, or Idea in 2019 with Podcaster and Author, Sarah Bragg

35. Taking a Step Toward Your Goal, Dream, or Idea in 2019 with Podcaster and Author, Sarah Bragg
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Do you have an idea, business, or project you want to launch this year? Is fear or doubt holding you back? Sarah shares her launch story and offers tips for you to move forward with your own dream in 2019. And if you have ever wanted to start your own podcast, this is the episode that will give you a jump start on that goal!
 
Scripture: Genesis 1:27 NIV “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Surviving Sarah Podcast
Sarah’s Book 
Are My Kids On Track Podcast
Want to learn more about the enneagram? The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
Off Camera with Sam Jones
The Next Best Thing with Emily P Freeman
Dais with Rachel Hollis
Guide to Start and Grow Your Podcast
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
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Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. Check them out at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode. [00:01:31] 
Today I'm excited to interview Sarah Bragg. Sarah is an author and podcaster based in Atlanta, Georgia. Her podcast is called Surviving Sarah. If you've ever wanted to start your own podcast, today is the episode you can't miss. We will go over many practical tips for how to get started. Here's our chat. 
Hi, Sarah. 
Sarah Bragg: Hi there. 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce. Thanks for coming on today. 
Sarah Bragg: I'm so excited to get to hang out. 
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start off. Can you tell all of us briefly a little bit about yourself? 
Sarah Bragg: Yes. I will try to do that in a little snapshot here. So I am turning 40 this year, which I still can't believe. I still feel like I'm like, aren't I just like 23? Isn't that true? So I'm turning 40 and I've been married to Scott for... I guess we're celebrating 13 years this year. I have two girls. Sinclair is in fourth grade, she's about to be ten and Rory is in second grade. So she's gonna be eight. [00:02:39] 
I'm the only one who like rounds up. I start rounding up ages about ten months before I actually turn that time. I'm like telling my youngest attorney, I mean, she still has like six months to go, I need to slow down, she's seven. So we'll make myself slow down here. 
But anyways, currently I am a podcaster and I am a writer and a communicator and host and I've always had a heart for ministry, ministering to women specifically. I can remember... I just shared this with some friends last week. I can remember being... I guess I was 20. I don't think I was even 21 yet. And I was at this leadership kind of thing for this internship I was doing and they had us write a purpose statement. And at the time I wrote to inspire, encourage and serve women for the glory of God. 
I just love that because I was 20 years old. At that time, my emphasis was working with young women, so middle school girls and high school girls, people that were just one step behind me. And I just love that 20 years later that is still the heart of what I'm doing. [00:03:42] And so I have a history of just working in ministry. 
I worked in full-time ministry for almost a decade — that was student ministry — and then I've been working for a non-profit organization called Orange off and on for the last 12 years, just helping to create resources for churches to use to help them partner better with parents and to reach the next generation. That's kind of a snapshot. 
I'm an author. I wrote a book forever ago. I always laugh. I was like 27 when it came out, but it's called Body. Beauty. Boys: The Truth about Girls and How We See Ourselves. Again, it's that heart for ministry for those young girls. I just thought if they could understand what I know now, what I wish I had known then, and that's really what that is my story of body image and learning how to find contentment and who God created me to be. 
The podcast is called Surviving Sarah, and it has been around for just over two years and it is just the most fun thing. It is so fun to get to sit down with women and men, I have been on the show too, and have conversations with people to get to hear their story and how they're contributing to the world and just really get to be a megaphone for who they are and get to cheer for them. And so that's been a really great highlight of what God has kind of pushed me in the last couple of years. [00:04:55] 
Laura Dugger: I love that because it sounds like even as young as age 20, He planted this seed. And now He's being faithful to carry on to completion what he's put in your heart. 
Sarah Bragg: Yes. And you know what? It's so funny. I was telling someone the other day how my dream job when I was that age, when I was in college, like graduating college, was to be the co-host with Regis Philbin. He was going to be like, Live with Regis and Sarah. That's what I wanted. 
So it's so fun to go, Oh, this is like... I'm hosting. I get to host a show now. And sure, I don't have Regis by my side, which would be very fun, but it's that same dream of what I was dreaming then, I'm getting to do that now. so that's been really fun. 
Laura Dugger: You mentioned a few of them, but you've accomplished some amazing goals. You've completed seminary, written a book, launched a podcast. So is all of that typical of your personality type or did you have to overcome some obstacles? [00:05:49] 
Sarah Bragg: You know, it's funny, I don't think I would have said it's my personality type when I was younger. I don't know if I even knew that about me. I wasn't a driven kid. My mom would say I was the most easy-going child. She's like, "Bringing you home from the hospital was like bringing groceries home. You were just easygoing I could leave you anywhere., I could put you in anyone's arms and walk away and you're like, 'Okay, see you later.'" So easygoing. 
But something I feel in me as I grew older this drive really kind of appeared. I think that it was one of those things where I love ideas, I have ideas all the time, but I still would have never thought of myself as an idea person. So I feel like there has been something in me that has this drive or this... 
I do have a fear of failure, but at the same time, when I feel like, no, this is what I'm supposed to do. I feel like I have a very strong confidence about what I'm supposed to do. And I think it's confidence in God and confidence in what He is pushing me towards, even if I don't totally feel I know what I'm doing. 
Even with ministry, my first job was actually at a minor league baseball team. [00:06:58] That's where I began my whole career. I thought I wanted to work in baseball, but I think I just probably wanted to marry a baseball player, if I was being real honest. 
My first job in ministry was in California, and I was living in Tennessee at the time, and I didn't blink an eye at that. I was like, "Yes, let's go to California. Let's do this." So I feel like I have always kind of, maybe as a young adult and leaning in, I have definitely always had this sense of "What's next?" It can be a bad thing, but it can also be a great thing. It pushes me forward to try things and to do something new. 
I think I love meeting new people and so all of those kind of things always open themselves up to being with people. I think that's part of who I am as well. 
Laura Dugger: That's so cool. And then unpacking your personality a little bit. I've heard on your podcast, you've said you're an Enneagram 3. Is that right? 
Sarah Bragg: Yes. 
Laura Dugger: Well, let's totally just take a rabbit trail. How did you discover that was your number? Did you take the paid test? 
Sarah Bragg: I took a free test online. It was going around our office. We were all talking about it. And I was like, Okay, I'm fascinated by all that kind of stuff. And so I took it and then I just like, Oh, three with a two. That's when it first came back. And I was like, Oh, whatever. Like I didn't even look into it. 
Then the more I started looking at it, I was like, "Oh, this is kind of depressing. I need to feel valued and I need to feel loved." And I was like, "Oh, this doesn't sound very good." Like I was kind of like, Ah. Then the more I started reading into it, I got The Road Back to You by Suzanne Stabile and Ian. I can't remember Ian's last name. But I read that and I started reading online and it was those things where you're going, Oh gosh, someone has been spying on the corners and the insides and the cobwebs of my brain and they wrote it in a book. And I don't know how they did that.
The more I kind of researched and learned... like Suzanne Stabile was on the show and she really kind of unpacked, you know, what each number was and did kind of this big overview of it all. I think I'm probably a three with a four rather than a two I think in the state of life I am in, where I'm a mom and I feel like you kind of have to be a helper a lot, but that's not generally who I am as a whole. [00:09:23] If you look back on years past, there's a lot more of that creative kind of brain. 
And it's funny because I can't remember now what the four is called. Five is the investigator. I can't remember what the four is. But anyways, it's one of those where they value authenticity and they value being real but then I'm a three who is playing this game of like, who do I need to be in order to be valued by this group of people?
So I always feel like the four in me is prosecuting the three in me of going, "Oh, you're not really you. That's not who you are. This isn't..." You know, and it's like this crazy... I'm like, I feel like I'm going to be checked into a mental home at some point for my personalities. But it has been fascinating. 
It's been really helpful to learn who my husband is. He is a five. And it's been helpful to just kind of be able to understand him and things that... What a lot of times frustrate me, like, why don't you have enough energy to go and do this? Why can't we have people over every weekend? You know, why can't we do that? And it's going, Oh, this is who he is, and this is how he operates and sees the world. And this is what he gains from this and this is what he loses and all of this. 
So then it helps me to have a little bit more grace for who he is and how he operates of going, This is just how he is wired. This is not a bad wiring. This is good wiring. And if I can understand that, then I can offer him a whole lot more grace for who he is. [00:10:41] 
Laura Dugger: You've said before that you've been through seasons of finding your voice, then losing it and finding it again. Can you elaborate on that journey? 
Sarah Bragg: Yeah. I think that's part of the hardship of my wiring of that three who's constantly driving forward. I feel like, you know, my 20s were very accomplished years. My first ministry job was at Saddleback Church, so it was this large mega-church in California and doing this thing. So I just kind of started there. I didn't even work my way up. That's where I started.
That was in my 22 maybe at the time when that happened and then published my first book when I was 27 and was traveling and speaking. And then it transitioned at this point, was working for this organization that was well known. I knew all these people. I was so networked and doing all this stuff. 
Then I had kids and it was like the brakes screeched stop and all the achievements and all the striving, everything just stopped. So it was a really hard moment of feeling like, okay, I was moving so fast forward and then I had this kid and that was a whole nother thing. Because I couldn't achieve this kid. Like there was no success at the end of the day. [00:12:07] The only success, if I could have gone back and told myself, was like, well, you changed her diaper every time and she was fed and you kept her alive. Good job. That was your success today. But it was one of those where it just was different. 
And motherhood was very different from the career that I had been in. And so I feel like that was part of it. And being in a place where I was essentially hired because I was this voice and I was a published author and I was a communicator and all these things but then they decided for me not to use those gifts or skills and what I was doing and the combination of my age and having a kid and then that just crushed my voice. I all of a sudden began to be very self-doubtful in who I was and what I had to say and what I had to offer. 
Going back to kind of Enneagram talk, if my main thing is to feel valued, that was a season of life where I felt invaluable in everything. [00:13:10] So it just really pushed me, I feel like, in a dark place of "I feel like I didn't enjoy motherhood. I feel like I didn't have any words to say." 
I remember my publisher would come back to me, like, "We really want you to write another book." And I was like, "That's great, but I have no words to say." Because at the end of the day, sure, I didn't have a lot of words because being a first-time mom and have a newborn or even a one-year-old is just a lot. But I questioned my voice. I didn't feel like my voice was worthy anymore because there were certain people that I valued their opinion and they said your voice isn't what we want. And that just crushed me. 
And so there was several years of just not doing the things that God had really skilled me to do. Of course, you know, you can look at it and you can see there was a season. I can look now and I think, "Well, of course, I didn't have another book to write because I needed to live some more life, I needed to experience some more." I can see that in hindsight. [00:14:12] But it took about four years of really just almost like circling back to the truth even that God had taught me as a 20-something in regards to body image. 
It was the same kind of struggle. It was the same questioning of identity and questioning of worth, except I wasn't starving myself and I wasn't looking in the mirror and going, "Oh, you're so ugly" or "You're not this." But it was the same root problem. 
I was looking at my voice and who I was and what I had to offer and going, Well, you're just not worthy. Like you're just not good enough. You're just not good enough for us. You're not funny enough, or you're not whatever enough. You don't write in the right voice. 
It took about four years of really just going back to those essential truths of... you know, I think about how, you know, Genesis 1:27, that God created man in His own image and that men and women are the only image bearers of God. And that alone gives us value. If nothing else, we have value simply because we were made in the image of God. Nothing external, nothing that because of what I did, nothing... It's just simply because I was created with His image, with that intrinsic value. [00:15:27] 
And going back and just reminding myself of that truth, or reminding myself of, you know, you're fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are your works, and my soul knows it very well, and how He intimately acquainted with all my ways, all these things. Coming back to, how did He weave me? He made me unique. He made my voice this way. And it's okay if these people don't value your voice because your voice matters, because God created you this way, and He's given you something unique to say. 
It was years of reinforcing those kind of truths about my identity and where my worth and my value really comes from, so that when the opportunities came back up to use my voice and I was ready to speak and ready to write and ready to use my voice, I was able to walk into the same organization, the same people, all these things, and be at a place that was much healthier and go, It's okay if you don't want me to do this because I know that apart from anything external, I have worth and my voice matters. [00:16:30] 
Those years were really as hard as they were and as I hated walking through the pain of that, and kind of in my mind it was a failure, and I don't like to fail. But it was good. It was good. It brought me to a place of Being able to do what I do from a place of acceptance not looking for acceptance from people.
Laura Dugger: It's exciting to see now on this side that one of your dreams, having that voice, being a podcast host, that's coming true. So what practical steps would you recommend to a listener who has a dream, whether that's launching a podcast or something totally unrelated? 
Sarah Bragg: Well, I think dreams are good. I think take a step. You know, I'm a big cheerleader for other people's dreams. Like my mom always laughs at me because if she says something, I'm like, "Okay, what if you did this, this, and this, and you could do this thing?" And she's like, stop trying to make me do something. I'm fine. I don't need to do that. 
But I just love this... like put some action to whatever that dream is. Even if it's a step. I have people all the time say, I think I want to write a book. And I'm like, Do it. Like when I had the idea to write my book, it actually wasn't even the book that got published. [00:17:43] I was an intern at Saddleback and the intern pastor was like, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" And I was like, "Well, I want to be a writer and a speaker."
And he was like, "Well, if you want to be a writer, maybe you should actually write something." And I was like, novel idea. Take a step. Do something." I had no agent at the time. I had no book deal. I had none of that. But I just sat down and I started thinking, "What do I want to say and who do I want to say it to?" And then out came a book. 
And I just would sit down and no one was paying me and I would go sit at a coffee shop or sit in my room and I just wrote a book. It's like you're just taking the next right step. I think sometimes we have dreams in our heart that may not ever even come to a fruition of payment. Or I think a lot of us think the only measure of success on our dreams is if someone pays us for it. I don't think that's true. I think that just even doing something with your dream, taking steps with your dream, those are steps of success. 
That would be my advice is just whatever that dream is, think about what the next right step might be, and then just do it. [00:18:48] Then just kind of you're just following the next right step. Because even launching the podcast, you know, I was in a season where I didn't know what was next. I just knew I was ready. 
My youngest had gone off to kindergarten and I knew. I was like, I know God is not done with me. I may have at one point thought I peaked at 30, but I knew that I was not done, that God still had something to do through me. I just didn't know what it was. And I said, "Is it speaking again? Is it writing another book? What is it that you want me to do? I just know that I want to use my voice, and I know that God for years have been saying, "You need to push others forward."
And so it was in the season of just seeking. Seeking out, what do you want me to do? I don't even know what the dream is. I just know that these are the things that I want to do with my life. I went to a conference and ended up in a breakout about podcasting for no other reason than there was nothing else to go to. And it was there that God was like, "I want you to start a podcast where you get to use your voice to push others forward."
That was in October, and then I launched the show two months later. So it was just like, "Okay, let's do this." Like you just start taking steps and one step leads to another. At some point, it may stop, and that's okay. But I  think it's one of those you owe it to yourself to at least take a step on the idea or the dream that you have. [00:20:00] 
Laura Dugger: Yeah. It's great to hear how you were just faithful in that thing right in front of you. Now let's speak to the person whose dream is to launch their own podcast and we'll break it down to a practical level. We heard where your idea began. When you mentioned that to your friends and family, what did they say when you said, I want to start a podcast? 
Sarah Bragg: Well, thankfully, my husband was clued in enough about podcasts that he said, "I don't know why we haven't thought about this before." He's like, "This is the absolute perfect thing for you." I had some friends around me that really kind of championed that for me. Then I had people who were like, what? What's a podcast? What is this? And so it was like a strange… like podcasts were moving forward, but they were still not totally everyday language for people. 
I had some people around me that were like, yes. And I'm thankful that my husband was, because that would have been hard if he would have been like, "I don't think this is a great idea." And it was a hard season. He is also an entrepreneur. He is a perpetual idea person and creator of things. [00:21:01] 
So we were in a season of both of us that year, 2016, he had tried launching something new and then here I am trying to launch something new. We're going, "Oh, why are we both launching something new at the same time?"
But thankfully, podcasting is not expensive. You can get a microphone and some headphones, and as long as you have a computer, and then the monthly hosting service is cheap. So it's one of those where it's like, Okay, this didn't take a lot of expense for me to make happen. And I think that was helpful. I mean, my time, but actual hands-on expense was not bad. 
Laura Dugger: Sure. So if you had to guess a round number to start a podcast, how much do you think yours cost? 
Sarah Bragg: Oh, I don't even know. We started with really good microphones. My husband is a video editor, and so this is a little bit in his world. So he's like, "We are going to have good microphones. That is one thing that we will have." So our microphones were a little bit more expensive. 
But I think that you can get a microphone, a good one, for around $250. And then the hosting site, I use a site called Libsyn, and it can be as cheap as $15 a month. [00:22:07] You can use a WordPress site that doesn't cost anything. And as long as you can learn how to edit... I just actually learned how to edit, even though my show is over two years old. My husband has been editing it this whole time. I just learned how to edit like a month ago. So I'm real proud of myself right now for learning how to edit a show. 
Laura Dugger: What do you use to edit your show? 
Sarah Bragg: We use something called Adobe Audition. The reason why we use that, again, my husband is this video editor and he uses Adobe for video editing. He's like, "Listen, if you want my help, if you run into a problem or have a question, you've got to learn Audition. Because if you use GarageBand or something else, then he's like, "I won't know how to do it." So I learned on that. It's been good. Like someone said, that's a harder one, but I feel like to me it's a little bit... It feels intuitive.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any other tips like technology, websites, books, or other resources? 
Sarah Bragg: Yeah. My favorite... I just launched another podcast two weeks ago. It's called Are My Kids On Track? It's a kind of companion study with a book that already exists by the same title. [00:23:13] So when I was launching it, it had been over two years since I had launched a podcast. And I was like, Oh, wait, what do I do? Like, how do I apply to iTunes? How do I upload a brand new show to Libsyn? 
So my friend, JC, she used to be the host of the Around the Table podcast, and she's a good friend of mine. She wrote a podcast guide about how to start a podcast. I'll send you the link so that you can put it in your show notes. But that was super helpful because it truly was like step by step. She even breaks it down like if you need to know how to edit, she teaches you how to edit, like how to, you know, prepare questions, all these things. 
So it was super helpful to be able to just refresh my memory using that and going, Oh, yes, these are the qualifications for an iTunes image and these are... you know, all of that stuff she included, which was super helpful. 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. Thank you for being generous and sharing that. We'll link to it for sure. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: You had alluded to this earlier, that it was maybe two months, but I just wanted to clarify, how long did it take to get from an idea to the first published episode of Surviving Sarah? 
Sarah Bragg: Yes, it was two months pretty much exactly. It was mid-October when I went to that conference. So I came home and I wrote down a list of 52 people. Because I was like, If I can think of 52 people, that's one year, that I could ask. Now, whether they said yes or no, you know, I didn't know. But I thought of all the people who I would want to have on the show, and some of them were big names and some of them were just normal people like me. So I wrote this out, and I thought, where am I going to start? Like, who are people that I'm texting friends with, you know, so that I know that they're people that most likely would not say no to me. I'll start there. 
I think I recorded About four episodes before I launched. I launched with two episodes, which is always good to launch with more than one so that people will listen once and they'll listen again. And that will help kind of boosting your show in iTunes a little bit. [00:26:35] 
So I launched on December the 20th, so the week before Christmas, because I thought, Well, maybe people will be traveling and they'll listen because they're traveling. So I just knocked out a few. I get to do probably, I don't know, maybe 40... at least 40% of my podcast episodes are recorded live in person in my home. 
I live in Atlanta and there's just a lot of people here. So it was fun to get to have some people come around my table early on and get to have a conversation in person. Then it just kind of rolled from there. I always tried to stay a couple of weeks out so that you weren't just recording and then feeling the pressure that it's got to come out, you know, in three days. 
So I gave myself a little breathing room before I launched, that I knew that I had some episodes in the can so that I could get some momentum going. Because people who are moms, especially summer's always coming, you know, there's always a winter break. So you use breaks that you've got to think about and plan for and plan ahead so that you're not scrambling all summer long going, Oh, how am I going to record an episode with people in the background? I couldn't do it. There's no way. I just wouldn't have a show if I had to record in the summer with my kids. [00:27:50] But yeah, so it's about two months exactly of start to launch. 
Laura Dugger: That is really helpful to think about winter break, summer breaks. You still release an episode one per week, is that right? 
Sarah Bragg: That's right. 2017 I took one week off. I took the week of Christmas off, and that was a big deal. I was very nervous. I don't know, I guess because you've been in the rhythm of doing this. And I remember just feeling like, It's okay to take a break. I think that, again, lends itself to my achieving personality. And it was one of those where you just need to trust. It's okay to take a break. 
Some advice I heard early on is to either answer is good, but either treat it as a hobby or a job. There's going to be two different ways you approach your show. And either answer is good, whatever it needs to be for you. But for me, I knew I wanted it to be a job. So for me, I was like, to take a week off was really hard, because I thought, Oh, no, am I not doing what I need to be doing, or doing enough, or people are going to stop listening, or people are going to... I had all these things. But yeah, so I took the week off, though. And it was fine. We survived. Every week, every Tuesday, it comes out. [00:28:56] 
Laura Dugger: And then for that summer break, what has been your solution around that? 
Sarah Bragg: I hustle up in March and April. So currently... and I have never been this far out. I don't know what happened. My husband was laughing at me because we were turning the calendar year and I said, "I'm really stressed. I don't know if I have enough people lined up." Then all of a sudden I looked at my content calendar, I was like, "Oh, like I'm two months out." So that has been helpful just to hustle up. 
Like last summer, I remember I picked one week in that and I thought, Okay, if I can record, few episodes this week or something like that to where it was... in the first year, I was like, If I could do one week a month or one day every other week and they could go to the neighbor's house for this time frame and I could line... Yeah. 
So I think it just takes a lot of strategy. It takes thinking ahead because your built-in time that I normally have during the school year is gone. But I do try to hustle up and it's a lot of work and it's a lot of time on the front end, but it's nice to not have to stress about creating space in the summer when we just are more lax on everything. [00:30:06] 
Laura Dugger: So even in the summer, though, as you're releasing these episodes, there's a lot of follow-up, I would assume. Do you still have to carve out time for emails or anything else that we wouldn't be thinking of with a podcast that takes your time? 
Sarah Bragg: Yes. There's a lot of time on the back end of even getting an episode ready. So the recording and the prepping for a conversation, that is one thing. But then the other part, the part that then once you've recorded, that's a lot of time. So not only is it editing the actual show that you're going to release, but it's creating images that you will use for promotion. I now create voiceover images. So that's another piece of editing. 
It's emailing with the people that are on the show and then creating show notes, which includes all my takeaways from the conversation. So there's just a lot of things on the back end part that take several hours to create. [00:31:06] 
Because I also work for Orange still in some capacity, so I still have other work that's not even the podcast-related that I need to do and need to work on. And it is just knowing I need about four to six hours for the podcast. And that's just going to be what it is for the back end to make everything happen. 
So then I just need to build that in every week, even if it's while the girls are, you know, watching TV or whatever. I think last summer I can remember working by the pool, like took them to the pool. I was like, Okay, I'm going to sit because my girl's going to swim. It's like the glorious promise land that when you're a mom of little kids, you just can't fathom. But I can actually sit by the pool and not have to get in the pool. It's a remarkable phenomenon that happens. 
So yeah, there's definitely a lot of work on the other end that's not just the fun part of sitting and getting to have a conversation. 
Laura Dugger: That's a very good realistic picture. How long did it take to get a sponsor? [00:32:04] 
Sarah Bragg: You know, I didn't go after sponsors for about two years. It's a tricky line. Everybody is different. I did want it to be a job. I did want it to eventually pay for something. I have a tendency for my... Again, this is my wiring all coming out. I can tend to push something so hard that it kills the fun of it. 
So for me, I was having so much fun in doing this that I wanted to be very protective of this creative thing that I was doing. I didn't want to kill my creativity because I was trying to force it to pay my bills. So I wanted to be very cautious of that. 
I was thankful that my husband... because I would start and you know, there were many moments where I was stressing and feeling like, well, I'm not successful because I'm not making money on it. And he would draw me back and go, "No, that's not true. That is not true." And he would say, "Just focus on making good content. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep delivering good content, then with the right time, the sponsors will come." [00:33:09] 
In December, this past December, I signed with just a sponsor, like an advertising firm, essentially. And so now they help bring sponsors to me. I'm not having to go after them. They get the sponsors and bring them to me and I can approve or not approve. 
I know for me, when I started out, there were podcasts that were two years in, that were two years, so essentially where I am currently, and I would look at them and think I needed to be where they were, but I needed to be there on day one. That was something that I would always have to remind myself, "No, no, they have put their time in, they have done the work for two years and they are here." Like, I'm not expected to be there on day one or even in the first six months. 
I think there were a couple times in the first year where I had a couple people come to me and ask to be sponsors and it worked out and that was fine but it wasn't something that I was... Again, everybody is different but for me, it just wasn't a thing that I was going to push hard until I was established and had a proven track record of content and of listeners. [00:34:12] 
It's been great finally getting to bring in some income for what we're doing and that will help offset the cost of not just the website and the hosting and the equipment, but just also my time. It's a lot of time when you think... This is a hobby that... I mean, it's a hobby that I want to be a job that takes a whole lot of my week. 
I think it's one of those where, you know, the beauty of sponsors for podcasts which I think that sponsors realize this, is that they live on. I record advertisement for Casper mattress or HelloFresh or whatever and it's gonna still live on like months from now. Someone's gonna go and download that random episode and they're gonna hear an ad that I'm no longer getting paid for. 
So I think that's kind of the beauty for sponsors where they see the benefit in advertising on podcasts because TV shows, it's not the same. It doesn't live on like podcast advertising does. 
Laura Dugger: And then on a more personal note, for you, how has life changed since launching that first episode? [00:35:17] 
Sarah Bragg: Well, my girls think I'm famous because I'm on iTunes. So everybody on iTunes is famous. I always laugh about that. My youngest calls it my popcast. She's like, "Are you going to do that popcast today?" And I love that. 
You know, I think that I have felt a renewed excitement about what I'm supposed to be doing right now. And so for those years of like wondering what's coming next and have I peeked and is it over, so there has just been a real renewed drive and a renewed excitement. I just think when you're doing things that give you life, there's a different attitude that you bring to everywhere you go, whether that's from relationships or friendships or ministry, whatever you're doing. I feel like that has changed in that respect. 
Laura Dugger: Is there anything else you would like to say as final encouragement to somebody who shares this dream of launching their own podcast? 
Sarah Bragg: Yeah. I would say just take a step. It's okay if it was for a season, that you did this and then you stopped. That's okay, too. I've had friends who… one friend just stopped and is no longer doing it, but it didn't mean that what she did during that time wasn't worth something. Then I had another podcast friend who started and stopped for a long time and then started again.[00:36:42] I think it's those kind of things where it's taking pressure off of what you're hoping to do. 
One of my favorite podcasts to listen to you is Off Camera with Sam Jones. I remember he interviewed Will Ferrell and they're essentially saying, if I'm no longer having fun, I'm going to stop doing it. So it's that never forgetting to just have fun. That's really how I try to approach it. And I pray that before I interview, I'm like, "Just help me to have fun with this. Help me to bring out the best in who these people are and just have fun."
Do not be overwhelmed with all the things and, well, I've got to be seen and I've got to be this and I've got to do this. Just remember at the end of the day to have fun with what you're doing. That's really what has driven me, I think, for the last two years is just this is fun. Sure, I'm not getting paid a lot. I was not getting paid at all for a time, but this was fun. I am getting to just have conversations with people and this is fun.
Laura Dugger: Fun. I would echo that. It is so fun. The podcast here is called Savvy for a reason, because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. [00:37:50] So as we close today, Sarah, we would love to know, what is your savvy sauce? 
Sarah Bragg: Oh, man. Well, I do love podcasts. I feel like that is practical information at your fingertips. A new podcast that is not necessarily new, The Next Right Thing by Emily P. Freeman, that has been a good listen. It's short. It's like 15-minute episodes. So it's very easily digestible. I feel like things like that... 
I've been listening to Deus podcast by Rachel Hollis. Those have been, again, short, easy to digest. I definitely think just growing in the nooks and crannies. Like, okay, I'm listening to this for like two seconds as I'm running from here to there. So that's a practical thing is just podcasts. 
I know that we've been talking about podcasts, but that is something I feel like I go through seasons, which people are always like, Oh, you must listen to a lot of podcasts. Sometimes I do and sometimes I'm like, no, I just want to listen to Spotify. I just need to hear music. Like, I need to hear songs and not words being spoken. [00:38:55] Then sometimes I get into seasons where I'm just digesting lots of words and lots of stories and humor and all that kind of stuff. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for all the work that you continue to do to release this great content, and thank you for being generous with your time and being our guest today. I really enjoyed having you. 
Sarah Bragg: I'm just honored that you asked. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:40:01] 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:06] 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:06] 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

34 Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter

*DISCLAIMER* This message is intended for adult listeners.
 
34: Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
 
**Transcription Below**
 
We are SO excited to share this episode with you to help you feel equipped with scripts to use as you have ongoing conversations with your kids about sex as God intends. We cover specific conversations to have with kids of all ages, from birth to adulthood. You don't want to miss it!
 
Genesis 1:26 (KJV) “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” 
 
Brian and Alison Sutter have been married for 12 years and have three kids, ages 6, 5, and 2. Brian is a licensed professional counselor at Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services and Alison is the founder and designer for Fae & Monroe. Together, they speak at conferences across the midwest on topics related to marriage and family. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in. We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
God’s Design for Sex by Stan and Brenna Jones 
Dannah Gresh Secret Keeper Book and Website
Passport to Purity 
Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services
Fae & Monroe
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
I want to say thank you to  Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you. 
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com, or like them on Facebook by searching  Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship. 
Brian and Alison Suter are dear friends of ours. I met both of them in junior high through our church connection. And when my husband and I moved back to Illinois, it was so fun to get to reconnect with them as adults in a similar stage of life. [00:01:21] 
Brian is a licensed professional counselor at Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services and Alison is the founder and designer behind Fae & Monroe. They have three great kids, and they are often asked to speak about marriage and parenting at conferences around the Midwest. It's an honor to host them today. Here's our chat. 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, friends. 
Brian Sutter: Hi, Laura. Great to be with you here. 
Alison Sutter: We're so honored to be a part of this podcast. 
Laura Dugger: Well, why don't you guys just first tell everybody a little bit about yourselves. 
Brian Sutter: Well, Brian here. Father, husband, and a counselor. That's what I do most of my day. I met my lovely wife here, Alison, in college. 
Alison Sutter: We've been married for 12 years now, and we have three kids. Kennedy is our daughter. She's six. Cash is our son, and he's five. And Ivy is our spunky little two-year-old. 
Brian Sutter: Yep, she brings a lot of life to the home. 
Laura Dugger: Well, Brian, you work with a lot of children in the private practice that you're a part of. What are some common themes that are coming up in your sessions? [00:02:28] 
Brian Sutter: You know, just depending on what's going on. But I think one of the things that we see more and more of is just anxiety. With the pressures and things that come along with social media, it's so easy to compare, and for a lot of kids, it creates a lot of anxiety. I would say that's a big focus or a big thing that we're seeing more and more of today. 
Laura Dugger: So if you could give all of your clients a voice, what do you think that they're desiring from their parents? 
Brian Sutter: A lot of them long for just a place to feel heard and understood and supported, this safe place where they can just be. And I think with parents, I wouldn't say that doesn't mean you can't have any expectations. But in that, how to navigate that place that there's expectations, but love isn't conditional in the midst of those expectations. 
Laura Dugger: And what does that look like, the difference between conditional or unconditional love from a parent? 
Brian Sutter: Well, I think just that continual message that says, I'm here for you and I care about you, and that's not dependent on the grades that you bring home. It's not dependent on your behavior that maybe I like or don't like. [00:03:34] Accidentally, we can give a lot of messages that say, as long as you make me happy, then I'm okay with you, when you don't make me happy, then I'm not okay with you. 
So that piece of just saying, I'm here, you have my love and support no matter what, and there are expectations I want to challenge you to move into. 
Laura Dugger: And with that anxiety, is there a specific age that's really struggling with this? 
Brian Sutter: I wouldn't say so. I think, in general, that's just more and more we see that across the age range. And depression, too. Those things are just seeing a lot of that. Now, whether that's because more people are aware of it and they're reporting it more, or there's actually more of it. There's a fair amount of, you know, arguing over those sorts of things. But there's a lot of it, and it's certainly on the rise.
Alison Sutter: But even us with a toddler, I find myself responding to her behavior. With, Ivy, you did a great job cleaning up your toys. I love you so much. And I tend to attach 'I love you' to the end of positive reinforcement. [00:04:35]
I think that is just a building block to teaching your kids that your love can be conditional. And I've really tried to make an effort to also attach that to the end of "Ivy, you shouldn't have treated your brother like that. I love you and I want you to learn a different way to treat your brother." So to just be conscious of how that can naturally become a part of our language, telling them, even though we don't mean to, that our love is attached to their behavior. 
Laura Dugger: That helps even just to have an example of a script that we can use as parents. For all the parents that want to do their part to set their kids up well, what advice do you have for them? I
Brian Sutter: I think one of the things that can be very difficult for parents in our day and age is to let our kids fail. Right? One of the skills I really try to encourage parents to give their kids is the ability to fail well. Like, too often, I think our goal becomes, how do we keep them from hard things? But rather, I think we want to train them to work through hard things. That's going to give them the skills, whether we're talking about anxiety or depression or their friend's done something mean or whatever it would be, how do we help them learn how to walk through hard things rather than set them up for, how do I avoid hard things? [00:05:52] 
Laura Dugger: Do you have any kind of stories or examples to illustrate what that might look like? 
Brian Sutter: One thing that comes to mind, even just in my own experience growing up, that I look back on and I think, what in the world were my parents thinking, right? My brother and I, we were like 12 and 13 and we're walking through... there's like Bass Pro or something like that. And we just had to have this little boat, this two-seater boat. We had it. 
We had a perfectly good John boat at home, but we thought we just had to have this. And it was like 400 bucks. So for a 12-year-old boy, that's a lot of money. And for some odd reason, Mom and Dad let us buy that. A few years later, it was just destroyed. We didn't take care of it. It actually ended up down the Mississippi. 
But looking back on that, I think it taught me that through that failure, through that poor mistake that my dad let me make, it was really unwise. And I learned that through experiencing it rather than him protecting me from making that poor decision. 
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. Even financially, that was a $400 mistake instead of a $40,000 mistake. [00:06:56] 
Brian Sutter: Exactly. And as we age and move forward through life, the stakes get higher and higher and higher. Like you're talking about, a $400 mistake at 12 turns into a $40,000 mistake when you're talking about college or a house and so on. 
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just get more specific and dive into a topic that makes most parents a little bit nervous, which is talking to your kids about sex. Are there any basic "shoulds" or "should nots" that we need to be aware of? 
Brian Sutter: One of the things you might think about is just to visualize this table. There's different seats around this table, and those seats are ministering into your child's heart. You get to pick who is going to sit in some of those seats and some of those seats you don't get to pick. 
So let's say there's 12 seats. You want to sit in the seat that's there for you. So that's the "should". Like if you're talking about ministering or speaking into this area of sexuality that's so important, take your seat at the table. Sit down and speak truth into their heart. [00:07:58] And make sure that this seat over here that you find a mentor for church that you respect that's going to be able to speak into their heart. And surround peers into their lives that you know are growing up with the same sort of values and expectations that you're trying to speak into their heart. 
Don't try to take away the seats or control the seats that you can't fully control. Like there's going to be things in society that you can't control. You don't get to remove that seat, but you want to join that seat so you can speak into whether it's lies or truths that are coming from that. 
So at a high level, just to keep that in mind, there's a seat for you at the table. Sit down and speak into their hearts, even on topics that are really scary like this one. 
Alison Sutter: I think it's easy for us to say out loud... of course, it's important that we're speaking to our kids about this topic, of course, it's something that I want to have a role in. But when the time comes and you're kind of caught off guard by this question that your child has or you find them doing something and your first reaction tends to be really awkward, and you don't know what to say, and you get nervous, and you tend to avoid it. Or maybe that's just me. [00:09:08] 
But it's really easy in the moment to say, Oh, it's too soon to talk about this. We'll talk about this when you're 13, or we're going to ask your dad when he gets home, or just to brush it off. What that is actually speaking to your child is there's a wall between you and me in this conversation. 
Then if that child has a question for you they're going to see that wall. "The last time mom reacted really oddly and she actually didn't want to talk about it. So maybe I should ask my friend at school instead, who seems more than willing to talk about it." 
So just to recognize that every time you engage your child, you're telling them that this conversation is open, that I'm willing to hear all of your questions. I'm not going to run away from your questions, even when I don't have good answers. So just be willing to sit in those awkward spots in conversations.
Laura Dugger: What I think I hear you saying is that even if you don't have the right answer, it's better as a parent to engage in that instead of avoiding it. [00:10:08] 
Alison Sutter: Yes, just to let your child know that you're willing to discuss it. I think it's so healthy for your child to know that you don't have all the answers and that you're willing to walk through this together and that other people are at their table and we can talk to other people about this too, but that they know that they can come to you and that you will speak into their life. I think it's so important. 
Brian Sutter: And in that, just to acknowledge there'll be times that you may not know the answer, and that's perfectly a fine answer. Like, "I'm not sure. Boy, let me think about that," or "can I get back to you?" rather than just totally running away from it and shutting the door. 
Laura Dugger: Because that's reality is that we won't know. 
Brian Sutter: Exactly, yeah. Some of it you won't know just because you're anxious yourself, right? When you get nervous yourself, you're just not going to think quite as clearly, and you may even need some time to process what's just been said, and then you may have an answer after you lay down and breathe in a bag for a while. 
Laura Dugger: This conversation, we've talked about a few things that are reactive if we have our kids approach us with a question and we catch them doing something. What about being proactive? Do you recommend that moms speak to daughters and dads speak to sons or both to both? What are your tips? [00:11:22] 
Brian Sutter: I think one of the things that we would say, our heart would be that it would be kind of an ongoing conversation in the home and it would be something that either one of us would be willing to speak into. Therefore, it's not her job for our daughters, it's not my job for our son. 
There certainly will be times, no doubt, that I'll have that conversation with my son. But hopefully, we're in this together and we're both fielding those questions and bringing that dialogue up as it seems natural through conversation. 
Alison Sutter: I think there's a shift right now since culture is shifting the conversation of sexuality so rapidly that in response to that, I see Christian parents changing from a talk they have with their kids to building a foundation from early on from just having conversations about the family unit to how they were made differently than their brother or their sister. And having those conversations really sets a foundation for biblical truths. Because it used to be that the culture lined up a little bit more closely with Christian truths about sexuality and the reality is it just doesn't anymore. 
So those foundational truths about how God made them, that He made them sexual, that sexuality was a part of the world before the fall. I think sometimes we tend to just speak negatively about it to our children. [00:12:47] 
And so I see this shift of speaking positively about their sexuality, which can be really scary as a parent with a six-year-old daughter. But of course, that's going to be an age-appropriate level. And just to teach them that God made their bodies good, that this was part of God's creation, and then if you have that as your foundation, then those biblical truths as they grow older about sexuality under the covenant of marriage is going to have a solid foundation instead of "this is bad until the day you get married." I think that really hurts the conversation if they're not allowed to view it as a positive thing until they're married. 
Laura Dugger: I think that's really helpful, Alison. A lot of this, again, we're talking if we're reactive to our kids' questions, but if you're advising people to be proactive with their kids, what age do you think it's appropriate to talk about anything sexual? 
Brian Sutter: Well, even if you're starting at the level, like Alison mentioned, just at gender, as soon as they're able to communicate that's an appropriate topic to talk about. What does that mean that you're a boy? And as you're reading through the scriptures, you're reading Genesis 1, and you're reading about Adam and Eve, Adam was a boy, and Eve was a girl. What does that mean? [00:14:05] 
At a very basic level, what does it mean that daddy's a boy and mommy's a girl? Some of those just fundamental pieces that maybe aren't necessarily directly on the topic of sex, but you're starting those foundational pieces that maybe the overall culture is starting to erode away from.
Alison Sutter: And every age you're going to have proactive and reactive. And I think that's important to think about that being proactive doesn't mean you won't have any reactive situations and that those are still good in the moment. They'll probably catch you off guard. But if you also utilize those proactive moments when you're able to set the timeline of teaching, then it really helps with those reactive moments. I think it's only dangerous when you only have the reactive moments. 
Brian Sutter: And for example, you know, it's very common for a really young child to masturbate. You know, that's a very common experience. So that might be reactive that, you know what, what are you doing and let's talk about that. These are the reasons why we wouldn't do that. [00:15:10] 
Now again, they may not listen at that point, but you're opening up that conversation to talk about body parts. You're opening that conversation, that we can talk about the subject with them. 
Laura Dugger: Can you paint a more clear picture of what is normal and something that a parent may walk into? 
Brian Sutter: Sure. So, you know, as a young child, it's just very normal for them to be curious about their body and in that to be fondling themselves. I don't have the statistics on it exactly on how often that is, but even if you were to go to any pediatrician and say, "Hey, this is happening. They're masturbating in the bathtub" or something like that, they're going to tell you this is very typical behavior. When it happens, just let them know, Hey, let's not do that, and try to shift their focus into something else. 
But in that, of course, you're going to maybe have a strong reaction like, Oh, no, what does this mean, or why are they doing that? Well, they're doing this because they're human and this feels good and therefore they engage the behavior. [00:16:12] And we want to try to just shift their attention into something else. 
And for a lot of kids, that's going to help them. Others, it's just going to be kind of steadily, Oh, remember, we don't do that. And then you keep shifting them and eventually they kind of grow out of it. It's awkward maybe at some point, but also just normal and something that is helpful to kind of move them along. 
Laura Dugger: That's really good. I've heard people say, moms of the sons especially, that these are private parts. So understand what private and public means and those two definitions. And those are private parts. We keep those private. We don't pull anything out when we're out in public. 
Brian Sutter: That's right. 
Laura Dugger: Maybe it's helpful to break it down by age so we know some age-appropriate conversations we can be having. So, what do you two think is the best way to start the conversation with our kids who are not even preschool age, basically birth to 3-year-olds? 
Alison Sutter: I think that's when you're really just having basic conversations, like you said, Brian, earlier about boys and girls. [00:17:13] So much of it is studying your child and listening to their questions because some kids are going to be ready to have conversations at two and three and some are not. So maybe four or five or six. So to really study your child, listen to their questions, be willing to engage with any questions that come up. 
But I think at that point often the difference between boys and girls, and like you said, these are your private areas, these are the areas that we don't let other people touch. You know, it's important to keep clean those kinds of conversations. 
Laura Dugger: That brings up a great point. Another topic that isn't as fun to talk about, but giving them names for their private parts so that if anybody does ever inappropriately touch them, the children then know how to communicate to the adult what happened. 
Brian Sutter: I think that would certainly, as you move into the next age group, that would really be the important goal there, that you're teaching body parts and you're helping them develop a language of, you know, what their different body parts are so then they know specifically what are private and what are public. [00:18:21] 
Then, too, like you're saying, it's a protective thing for them. We can't always protect our children from abuse, but one of the things that we can be very helpful with, if we equip them with the right information, what's okay, what's not okay, and what to do if something happens that's outside of what we've defined as okay, this is what you do. When they know that, that can help prevent it being an ongoing abusive thing, hopefully. 
God forbid it ever happens, but, you know, just that they would know this is wrong. Mom and Dad have told me what to do, and now I can act according to what Mom and Dad have said. 
Alison Sutter: In those ages of kids, I mean, if you think about anything you're teaching a 3-year-old, you're never going to say it one time. and they get it. So I think it's really important to have these conversations often whether it's through reading books about it or just asking them questions to be saying it multiple times so that they know if something ever happens that they remember it. Because of course, a 3-year-old isn't going to remember one conversation you had. [00:19:24] 
So hopefully that's something that you're pouring into them often so that when it happens they know that they can come to and talk about it. It's a regular conversation. 
Laura Dugger: And then it feels safe for them. So that's maybe the protective conversations are about 3 to 5 years old, would you say? 
Brian Sutter: Yeah, I think so. That they're at that point, you know, are probably going to be able to talk fairly well and be able to understand what you're saying and moving into that space at that point. I think for us, one of the things that was helpful at that point is using some outside resources like reading a book together that kind of is now introducing the different body parts and some of this material. 
You don't have to come up with it on your own, but it's something you're sitting side by side and reading together that's introducing it. And you might only get through two of the 20 pages, but then you're stopping and what does that mean? And what is this? And then, inevitably, you go to church on Sunday and your sons tell them, you know, all his buddies about this new word that he's learned. And, you know, you're like, oh no, which parents are going to come after me today? But it's good. It's important. [00:20:29] 
Laura Dugger: It is important. We can definitely link to this in the show notes, but what are some examples of books that you do recommend for starting this conversation? 
Brian Sutter: One of the books we really like in our office is called God's Design for Sex by Stan and Brenna Jones. I believe right now they're actually in between editions. So they're actually a little bit harder to get a hold of. But they're hopefully coming out with some new additions here in the near future. Those will be excellent. The old additions have been really helpful for us, but I know they're doing some new additions and those are great.
Alison Sutter: And those are just available on Amazon. 
Laura Dugger: We love those books as well because they're even broken down by age groups, kind of what we're talking about today. 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: So what are some ongoing conversations parents can have with their grade school-aged children? 
Brian Sutter: Well, I think at that point, again, just using day-to-day experiences, as you're reading through, you know, the story of David and Bathsheba, you can bring a whole different layer of teaching to that at that age where they're understanding different things, and now they've got this foundation of truth of males and females. They know what public and private body parts are. [00:22:43] 
And now you're kind of moving into this space that you're teaching them what is sex, and God's design for that. A Bible story like that, that's a perfect example to just kind of use that as a teaching opportunity.
Alison Sutter: It reminds me of learning about counterfeit money when people are trained to spot counterfeit money. The way they do that is by studying the real thing instead of studying all the fakes. And I think it can be applied to this situation where if you have laid the foundation of what God's truth is, then their kids are more likely to spot something outside of those boundaries. 
It's a really overwhelming conversation if you're expecting to teach your kids all the wrong things about sex. But if you're able to teach them God's truth and God's plan for it, and what those boundaries are, and that those boundaries are really good and really healthy for them, then they're able to spot when something lies outside of that. [00:23:41] 
Brian Sutter: Sometimes as Christians, one of the things that we err on is that we are just kind of the no police. Here, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that. Whereas this is a perfect age group, you know, to be able to come alongside them and help them understand God's design. And even teaching. 
In Genesis, it talks about that God's given us dominion over the world. I think one of Satan's desires is that the world would have dominion over us, whether that's through sex, whether that's through alcohol, so many different things. And that we get to teach them God's best and how that's good for them. It's not restrictive in a way that says you can't do anything. It's restrictive in a way that says, no, this is what's best, and this is what you're designed for. And that's an exciting way to teach it rather than just no, no, no, which we tend to do. 
Laura Dugger: Yes, and that's a great challenge for all of us even just to develop our own theology of biblical sex and that there is so much freedom and excitement in that for what God has to say. [00:24:43] 
Alison Sutter: That's a really good point that if you don't know what the Bible says about sex yourself, it's going to be impossible for you to teach others. I mean, depending on how your parents taught you, if it was the typical one conversation, here's 30 minutes, I'm going to tell you all you need to know, and that's all you have, there's a good chance you don't know what the Bible says about sex. And so it would be crucial for you to really understand what your theology is before you're jumping into that with your kids. 
Laura Dugger: Before we go on to the next age group, these younger kids, I've heard a lot of people say, well, I just don't want to take away their innocence. What are your thoughts on that? 
Alison Sutter: Well, those younger kids, you're really teaching a positive message. I think you can keep it positive until they ask... You can see when their mind starts working and asking those questions. Well, when our son was 4 years old, I remember him asking me, "Can two girls get married?" And it used to be that you could say no. [00:25:41] 
Now the answer is a little more muddy because technically our culture says that you can. So you can tell when your kids are starting to connect the dots and bringing up things that are going to be more awkward and going to maybe be more negative about what the culture is telling them. 
But when they're young and they're not asking those questions, it can be an all-positive conversation that God made them... He made them perfectly, that your bodies are beautiful and wonderfully made, and you can keep it positive until those questions start coming. 
Brian Sutter: I think the other thing that I would just mention with that is that there's risk with everything that we might do, right? There's risk with every decision that we step into. And is there risk in being open with your five-year-old on this topic? Yes, there is risk. 
But in my opinion, and from my experience even clinically, the risk of not stepping into this space, the risk of not sitting down at the table and teaching them far outweighs the risk of me having an uncomfortable conversation with another dad at church of why his son now knows the word penis. [00:26:48] Like, that's uncomfortable, but that's a fairly small risk versus not sitting down and what could happen without me teaching what I want my child to know about sex. 
Laura Dugger: So that addresses one of the fears of parents. And one other is just "it's awkward, it's funny, we laughed, it went terrible." What encouragement do you have for them? 
Alison Sutter: Your kids tend to ask at the worst time when you are not expecting it, you don't have any planned answer and it is, it's so awkward. My first practical tip is to read the books before you read them to your kids because they-
Brian Sutter: Do you remember the first time we sat down... like she's over in the corner just like dying and then eventually she says, Is this the way you thought this was gonna go? I mean, it was just a complete disaster. But they don't they don't remember it at all because we started young enough. [00:27:47] It's actually a fun memory. 
So it's gonna be awkward. And that's where the advantage of starting when they're young enough that they don't remember it. I think that's one of the sayings to think about it. If you start when they're old enough to remember that conversation, you've started too late. Start when you can do the awkwardness and they're not going to remember it. You will, but it'll be fun. Then by the time they're, you know, will remember it, you'll have, you'll be sharp as a tack. 
Alison Sutter: And we've read these books many... I mean, we're still on the 3 to 5 age range with our kids and that book in that series. And we've read it several times. So after you've read this book four or five times with your kids, it's so much less awkward. I mean, it just becomes a very natural conversation and you can just see that this is going to be much easier to have a conversation when you have questions, because we've talked about this many times. [00:28:41] If we had just done it after that first reading, it would have been not as comfortable. 
Laura Dugger: Okay, so that was helpful. I derailed us a little bit. So let's get back to some of those ages, because the next few seasons can be kind of tricky. How do you think that parents should address this topic with their children who are junior high age? 
Brian Sutter: Again, it's one of those places now, you know, you're moving into that space where there are girlfriends, boyfriends, there's a lot more of that going on. Again, just stepping into that space, having that conversation. What does that mean? What do boys and girlfriends… what do they do with each other? And getting a feel, one, for where they're at and what they're aware of, and then either bringing knowledge into that that's correct or kind of helping them understand what's not okay about that. But just stepping into that space, I think, really is the main thing. 
Laura Dugger: And by stepping in, do you also mean even asking them direct questions? 
Brian Sutter: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's being talked about? What are the things that happened today that you think maybe mom or dad wouldn't agree with? [00:29:51] All of those things happen through their day, and us being aware of what's going on is going to give us the opportunity to speak into that. 
Now with technology, it just creates a whole new space. So, okay, they're going to be starting to want to get into maybe social media things. Okay, well, tell me. Help me understand what's going on there. Teach me how to use this. How are your friends using it? What are the positives? What are the negatives? 
And if you can do that on the front end before they get into that, then you have some more control. Again, you're providing teaching before they're even into that space and figuring out if that's wise or not based on where they're at maturity-wise. 
Laura Dugger: You're making all this feel doable because it sounds a lot like relationship building. And that's not as intimidating. 
Brian Sutter: Exactly. I think if you can look at it through that lens that this is just about me building and maintaining a relationship with my kid rather than "how do we teach them about sex?" Well, this is just part of what you do, part of relationship. It's not like this separate piece that we just kind of put in the back closet and just bring out, you know, once a year when somebody's made a mistake or my wife is telling me, "It's time, have the conversation" or whatever. [00:31:01] 
Alison Sutter: I think Satan would love for that to be the case and he would love for us to be so afraid of this topic that we never approach it or that it feels too big to even talk about with our kids. Going back to what you said about having those conversations with your junior high kids, you're really good... Of course, our oldest is six. You're really good at asking our kids about their day at school, and I would have never thought about this. 
But just that ability for kids to think back and relay what was good about their day and what was bad about their day, it's not just so that you have something to talk about at dinner, but for them to look back and think about choices that they made, situations with their friends at school, what they liked about the day, what they didn't like about their day. You're teaching them to communicate with their parents. 
And if you've done that since they've been little, it's going to be a lot easier in junior high if you're asking them about their friends at school or social media. If you've never asked your kids about their friends at school, that conversation is going to probably bring up a defensiveness from your junior high kid. [00:32:07] But if that's just your normal conversation at dinner, it's going to feel really natural.
Laura Dugger: So it's a great natural rhythm to get into as early as possible. And yet never too late. Somebody could still start this today regardless of their children's ages. 
Brian Sutter: No question. And then the reality is, too, there's some kids that just are going to be much more hesitant to talk and tell you about their day. And that's just a real part of this, that it doesn't necessarily mean you didn't start the conversation early enough. It doesn't necessarily mean that you've got to keep digging. It's just being patient and coming alongside. Let them know that that door is open from your end. And hopefully, when those challenges or difficulties come up or questions arise, they can look to you as a resource, not necessarily somebody they have to hide this from. [00:32:56]
Laura Dugger: You both have mentioned around the tables, maybe the dinner table. And if they're not opening up, maybe it's throwing a football in the backyard or going for a walk or driving together. But we can be creative in how we're approaching these conversations. 
Alison Sutter: Absolutely. I think kids that have a harder time with face-to-face conversations. If your child tends to clam up and not want to speak when you're face-to-face, I think driving in a car is a really helpful way for them to engage. They can look out the window and you can chat without that intense eye contact. Sometimes that's hard for kids at this age range. 
Laura Dugger: What advice do you have for parents of high schoolers? 
Brian Sutter: One of the questions I would ask parents at that stage is just what is your goal? What are you hoping for, for your young son or daughter? Our goal is again to disciple them towards Jesus. That we want to teach them what it looks like to love and follow Jesus. [00:33:51] 
Now some of them are going to be more open to that than others, but that's really our goal. And part of that means is helping them to navigate relationships and talk about relationships. At that point, you know, certainly girlfriends and boyfriends are really a reality, but how do you walk through that in a way that honors Christ? And if they're not, how do you talk to them about that? 
Again, keep that door open and not turn it into, look at all the things that you're doing wrong every time, but you're keeping relationship intact while you're trying to continue to pour truth into their hearts. 
Alison Sutter: Something you talked about recently that seems really scary to me is that we tend to teach our kids to be virgins, that that is the end goal, when we should be teaching our kids to be disciples. So if we have reached the 18 where we're letting them off into the world and they are virgins and we give ourselves a big gold star, I think that's really dangerous because we could have lost so much in that conversation. [00:34:54] 
So, you know, if your child is not a virgin at that point, you've not failed. And I think that can be really helpful in this stage because you feel like this is the big test, whether our kids are going to make right choices. And to just remember that at the end of the day, we want them to be disciples. I think we can get lost in this purity battle. We just want to keep our kids safe, right? And it's such a good goal to have. But that you have that big picture of being a disciple of Jesus. 
Laura Dugger: I love that because then if a child has failed in this area, then the parents, you're saying, bring everything back to the Bible. And the Bible is full of redemption and grace. So we can use that to inform our conversations as well as part of that bigger goal of making disciples. 
Alison Sutter: Absolutely. Amen. 
Brian Sutter: And I think, you know, sexuality is a great place to practice that. That we should assume that this is going to be an area that is going to be hard for our kids. You know, pursuing purity, this is going to be hard, but that's not something that we should run from. It's a place where their hearts can get exposed and that we want to jump into that with them. [00:36:06] So therefore, dads and moms, we ought to be interacting with our kids and asking them, how are you doing? What's hard about staying pure? Where are things not going well? 
Again, some kids are going to be more open to that conversation than others. But again, trying from our end as much as we can, letting them know we're interested, we're curious, and we're here for them in that. 
Alison Sutter: This is also an age when kids are going to set the time frame of your conversations more. You don't have too many midnight conversations with your 4-year-old, but you're probably going to have more of those as your kids age. And to just be willing to be really tired the next day, to be willing to have those conversations because a lot of times... 
Obviously, we don't have experience with this yet. But even in our own childhoods, those late-night talks are so valuable. And if our parents wouldn't have been willing to do that, it would have been really sad. 
Laura Dugger: So what is considered healthy once kids are out of their parents' home as far as continuing discussions related to sex? [00:37:13] 
Brian Sutter: One of the things to think about there would be just if they're in a serious dating relationship or if they're married and kind of where they're at on that continuum. So if they're in that space where they're out of the home and they're in a serious dating relationship, for somebody to be speaking into this area of their life, and at least, if nothing else, to have that conversation with them. Am I that person as a parent? Or do you have a youth pastor? Or maybe they're at college at this point, and there's a pastor or somebody there at college who can do that. 
And then two, for the parent to close that loop, like, okay, would you mind if I call them and just say, Hey, this is an area they're going to be talking with you about. I'm fully supportive. Let me know if I can be helpful. That sort of thing. Or if they're married and they have questions about that. Again, asking that question: is this something you'd like me to speak into, or if not, who could? At a minimum to have that kind of a discussion and they get to be more the driver at that point.
Alison Sutter: Because your authority certainly changes once your child is married. [00:38:16] So, you know, if they're willing and open, both of them are willing and open to have you as a mentor in that area, that's awesome. But they might not be. And that's okay, too, because then you know you are no longer their authority in that area at that point. 
Laura Dugger: And it kind of goes back to all of those seats at the table for each child. That maybe this isn't your area to speak into, but somebody else in a different seat. 
Brian Sutter: You're assuming this is going to transition from you to somebody else at some point in this age group. Whether it's late into high school, early college, or marriage, you're assuming there's a transition. So you're exactly right. You want to have people in that seat that you think would be helpful, and maybe they'll pick them or maybe they won't. But that job won't always be yours and having good people that are available to step into that more. 
Laura Dugger: And that you may just be playing more of a supportive role. 
Brian Sutter: Yeah, right.
Laura Dugger: So where can a parent start today when they hear all of this? 
Brian Sutter: I think my biggest encouragement would just start with the goal of I'm going to step into this. I'm going to step into wherever they're at, whether your child is 3 or 13 or 23, you're going to ask them or talk to them about the topic of sexuality, whether that's in the context of sexual purity or in the context of body parts if they're at the younger end. Whatever that would look like, just to say, what's one small question or statement that I can share with them over the next few days? [00:39:46]
Alison Sutter: And I think if you have younger kids, of course, you can, you know, start right now and they'll never know that you weren't starting earlier. But if you do have older kids to just be honest with them to say, you know, this is an area I haven't done well, and I'd like to do better at. And to just have that very first conversation with them about what this could look like, that you want to be open and honest, and you want to be a place that they can ask the hard questions. 
Laura Dugger: I think that's so admirable because that is leading with humility, maybe even apologizing. "I'm so sorry that we haven't had more of these conversations, but I would like to open that door if you will."
Alison Sutter: It can be so powerful. 
Laura Dugger: Our listeners are some of the kindest people we've met. Your gracious comments through social media, email, and our website fuel us to continue producing more content. Some of you have asked what you can do to support The Savvy Sauce. As you know, we greatly appreciate it when you share episodes with friends. 
And now, for as little as $2 a month, there is a new way to financially show your support. These contributions, ranging from $2 to $20 per month, will be rewarded with extra podcasts, free downloadable scripture cards, and more. Check out all the details at thesavvysauce.com and click on our "Patreon" tab to find out how you can be a supporter of the arts. Thanks for participating. [00:41:12] 
Are there any other recommended resources that you want to suggest to listeners if they want to educate themselves further on any of these topics? 
Brian Sutter: I think one that comes to mind from Focus on the Family that I really appreciate and recommend a fair amount is called Teaching Your Child About Homosexuality. So it's not actually a book, it's more of a pamphlet. And it does kind of breaks it down into age groups. Here's where you start when they're really young and kind of the next thing and the next thing. 
It does a really good job of practically giving you teaching points at different ages, kind of like we're talking about today, but more directly on the topic of homosexuality. I think that's a great resource. 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful, Brian. Alison, do you have any other ones to recommend? 
Alison Sutter: Obviously, we haven't gone through any of these older resources with our kids, but I know people who have used Dannah Gresh and her Secret Keeper Girls. There's weekends, there's different seminars you can take your girls with you to. It's really entertaining. The girls love it. And then they give you some resources that you can have those conversations one-on-one with your child as well. [00:42:17] 
I've heard really good things about that and I've heard really good things about Passport 2 Purity as well by Family Life. 
Laura Dugger: Great. Again, we'll link to all of those in the show notes. Well, you two know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with insight or practical knowledge. And as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Brian Sutter: I think mine would be: dads date your daughters. If we can give them an example of what it looks like to be loved and cared for just because you love and care for them, what a great privilege. And it's so much fun, too. Like, going to the coffee shop and having a hot chocolate with your little girl. Or, you know, I can't wait till when she gets a little bit older and we get to go out to dinner together. You know, we've gone to the park together. It's such a fun thing. 
And hopefully, it's laying some of those foundations of what it looks like for her to be treated as a beloved daughter created in the image of God, and that that will help her recognize the difference between men who are worth pursuing and men who are not. [00:43:23] 
Alison Sutter: I think mine would be to find your tribe. It's a little bit of a buzzword going around, I think. But to find people that are going to cheer you on. I've been so blessed with a circle of friends that I would be so confident in if my kids went and asked them any questions about things that we've talked about today or just any life questions. I'd be so confident in their answers to them. 
I think it can be really difficult, especially if you're a stay-at-home mom, to reach out, to get out and make relationships can be really intimidating and it can be really hard, especially when you do life differently or you do parenting differently. You know, you tend to run into different styles and it can kind of push you back into your hole and you just want to stay home. But to really reach out, make some connections, have solid girlfriends that are going to come along with you and cheer you on in the hard days, and also possibly be a seat at that table for your child. [00:44:23] 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love both of those. You two are just so fun to be around and so full of really helpful, practical tips. So I just want to say thank you for giving us your time today. 
Alison Sutter: It was so fun to be here. 
Brian Sutter: It was. [inaudible 00:44:36]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:45:22] 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:46:27] 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:47:27] 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

33 Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan

33. Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Psalm 46:10 (NKJV) “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!” 
 
Dr. Jill Carnahan completed her residency at the University of Illinois Program in Family Medicine at Methodist Medical Center. She received her medical degree from Loyola University Stritch School of Medicine in Chicago and her Bachelor of Science degree in Bio-Engineering at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana.  She is dually board-certified in Family Medicine and Integrative Holistic Medicine.  In 2008, Dr. Carnahan’s vision for health and healing resulted in the creation of Methodist Center for Integrative Medicine in Peoria, IL where she served as the Medical Director for 2 years.  In 2010, she founded Flatiron Functional Medicine in Boulder, Colorado where she practices functional medicine with medical partner, Dr. Robert Rountree, author and expert speaker.  Dr. Carnahan is also 10-year survivor of breast cancer and Crohn’s disease and passionate about teaching patients how to “live well” and thrive in the midst of complex and chronic illness.  She is also committed to teaching other physicians how to address underlying cause of illness rather than just treating symptoms through the principles of functional medicine.  She is a prolific writer, speaker, and loves to infuse others with her passion for health & healing!
If you would like to read more about Dr. Carnahan, visit www.drcarnahan.com.
 
Dr. Jill’s Website 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: This episode was made possible by an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank. They paid the sponsorship fee to help spread the word that Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 
If you would like to learn more about Midwest Food Bank, make a donation, or see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 
You may have already heard of Dr. Jill Carnahan, who is our guest today. She's a leader in the growing field of functional medicine, and she's also dually board certified in family medicine and integrative holistic medicine. 
She and I also grew up in the same small town farming community, and I think she even babysat me a few times. She's an incredible clinician, so she is in high demand. I apologize for some of the background noises that you may hear today, but I hope it doesn't take away from this incredible conversation. 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Jill. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Thank you. Good to be here with you. 
Laura Dugger: For those who don't know you yet, can you just share your personal story with us? [00:01:37] 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You bet. We'll jump right in. I always wanted to do something in the wellness field and I ended up going to medical school. I always joke I have the heart of a naturopath because I think much more like natural and holistic and food-based alternatives. But I felt like going into the allopathic world would be the best way to actually get in the system and make a change. So that was my journey.
I got to medical school, was going along fine until my third year when I was suddenly diagnosed with breast cancer at 25 years old. So that was a real turning point in my life. I share faith like you. And so this was definitely a time where God just really was very near to me in that journey and healed me from that cancer. 
I used a lot of the holistic principles, nutrition and supplements and food in the journey and so I really became more empowered and passionate about how to heal and help people through more natural means even in the face of something as scary as cancer. 
And you know now I'm thriving 17 years later but the truth is at that time, I didn't know if I had six weeks or six months or six years. It was a very scary time. It was really a point of really understanding what it felt like to be the patient in the face of unknown and fear. [00:02:52] 
I've always had hope and I've always had a sense of God guiding my life. I feel like that was the first part of my journey and really giving me the knowledge of understanding what it felt like to be on the other side of the office table. 
Laura Dugger: Certainly. Maybe that's one of the reasons you come across so compassionate. Because it seems that you encourage your patients to optimize their health and wellness rather than simply treat symptoms. Today, I'd just love to hear your opinion on various factors that impact our health. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You got it. 
Laura Dugger: First, let's just start with water because we always hear that's incredibly important. So why is that and what happens to our body when we don't get enough? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: I love it. Go back to the basics. Something I always teach when I'm talking to physicians is we need clean air, clean water, clean food. Clean water is right in the middle there and such a priority. People forget how important it is. Every single cell in our body is made up of majority of water and so it lubricates and it hydrates and it allows all the enzymatic processes to happen and it helps digestion to occur and helps our blood flow. [00:03:56] 
Pretty much every process and every fluid in our body wouldn't be the same without water. I see this in clinic all the time when I see patients who struggle with dehydration syndromes and pots which is an orthostatic type of thing where when they stand up they get dizzy or where they just are thirsty a lot or urinating a lot. Those are all things that affect their hydration and they get very sick from that.
The sources of water are really key.. A lot of times people put a whole house filter like reverse osmosis, which is wonderful because it's clean. But the problem there is it depletes the water of minerals, so they're going to have to make sure they're drinking or eating or taking foods with minerals or mineral supplements or things like that, so they're not too acidic with that water that's depleted of toxins and minerals. 
Something I love is the countertop Berkey filter. It's the one I use at home because it cleans the water very well and doesn't deplete the minerals quite as significantly as the other types of filtrations. And just making sure you're drinking water throughout the day. 
I'm a fan of a little bit of coffee and some tea. That's okay. But you don't want to use that as your sole source of hydration. And if you have trouble, you can slice, you know, cucumber or lime or all kinds of things and put it in your water for taste. [00:05:01] 
I'm also a big fan of European mineral waters because they're really heavy in minerals. So like San Pellegrino, Perrier, some of those kinds, Gerald Steiner from Germany is really high in different things. So those can be helpful too because they're full of minerals, which makes the water very alkaline. 
Laura Dugger: Those are great recommendations. Let's talk about exercising. What are the implications of either choosing a lifestyle full of exercise or choosing a sedentary lifestyle? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Movement is huge. It's interesting because I've always been... that's been kind of one of my outlets for stress. I love to exercise.. And usually I'm doing it at a very like either running or high intensity. Something pretty intense. 
And I've learned over time for myself and my patients, that's great. Actually high intensity interval training is one of the best things you can do in a short period of time to get a good workout. And all that is, is just when you have a very like maximum capacity put out and then you rest for a bit. Maybe walking. [00:06:02] So you maybe do 90 seconds or let's say 30 seconds of intensity and then 90 seconds of walking and 30 seconds of intensity and alternate something like that. 
But bottom line getting back to my point was that a lot of people with our high stress lifestyles actually don't need an adrenaline rush and that will also raise cortisol. So some of the things I often recommend implementing are walking, yoga, just moving.
I know some of my best times in the morning are just walking the dogs. I'm not doing anything vigorous, but I have time to walk it and pray. And that really, really rejuvenates me. Sometimes more than the high-intensity stuff. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's an incredible suggestion. You had briefly alluded to supplements earlier. So are there any that you recommend to the general population, or is it all individualized? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: I think so a lot of people are at the mindset of why would we need to get vitamin, we should be able to get it all from food, which in theory is wonderful if our soils weren't so depleted. So nowadays the soil contains maybe a fifth of the magnesium and some of the minerals we need. 
So an apple today compared to an apple that our grandparents would have eaten is so depleted of nutrients that we really cannot get enough just through food alone. [00:07:10] And it's sad, but that's just the way our world and our soils and everything are. And so I'm a big fan of introducing some sort of a multi-mineral, multi-vitamin. Most people need extra vitamin D unless they're outside in the sun all day long. Then probiotics are really important. 
Again, part of this is just because the stresses on our environmental toxic load and our stresses psychologically, they're so much greater than they used to be. So we just need more resources to actually combat the stresses of everyday life. 
So probiotic, vitamin D, multivitamin are some of the basics. Most people could take a fish oil or just eat plenty of wild-caught fish. Those are ways to do that. 
Then I'll individualize different things like mitochondrial support or liver support like N-acetylcysteine or lipoic acid or melt thistle. Things like CoQ10 for the heart and extra magnesium can be great for the bowels or for sleep. So depending on the problem, there's other little things you can add. That's probably the basics that almost anyone could benefit from. 
Laura Dugger: Let's just touch on the topic of sleep as well. How does consistent lack of sleep affect us? [00:08:18] 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Oh, you are hitting on all the good topics. Sleep is so critical. And if I get a patient comes in and they have a myriad of problems, but sleep is one of them, usually I focus on sleep as a huge priority, maybe the number one priority. Because our cells are able to regenerate our liver and body is able to detoxify our immune system is able to find infections and restore and regenerate and all of that happens... a lot of it happens at night when we sleep.
So we really need that time for our brain. Our brain even there's processes that they clean up areas and said that reorganize memories. And so much happens... I remember I learned this, didn't know the science behind it but in college and medical school so many of my friends would pull all-nighters before a big test, and I would study really hard up until 9 or 10 p.m., and then I would go to sleep. 
And what I learned is I actually had a much better memory or recall by studying it and then having eight hours of sleep before the test, because my mind would actually go over the material while I slept. I felt like it was cheating, but I realized that that was a really powerful way, way better than an all-nighter, to actually reorganize our brain and our memory and prepare for something that was stressful the next day. [00:09:26] 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is fascinating. And related to this topic, a lot of listeners struggle with insomnia. So what are some of the most common causes and solutions to overcome this frustrating symptom? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Great, because you're right, people are struggling. You can try simple things without knowing the cause. I'll go into a couple of causes in a minute. But things that you might try simply and safely would be magnesium and magnesium glycinate, because of its calming effect, and it's pretty neutral for the bowels. It tends to be my favorite for sleep. 
And most people can go pretty high, like 250, 500, even higher doses at bedtime, and it really induces a nice sleepy and relaxed state, and that's easy and safe, and almost everybody can use it. The only contraindications would be if you had kidney diseases or some parathyroid issue or some metabolism issue where you had too much magnesium, which is pretty rare. 
Things like melatonin are pretty safe. There's been some news out recently of long-term use and inhibiting production. I'm not really of that mindset that it's a problem in low doses for most people, and especially if used kind of intermittently. [00:10:28] 
Children actually do really well on low doses of melatonin too. Then there's so many wonderful herbs. My very favorite is GABA. It's actually not an herb, it's a neurotransmitter, like an amino acid, but it's wonderful. So GABA is really helpful for inducing sleep. 
Then other causes would be some people are just really high cortisol at night. That's usually a stress response. And so things that would calm the stress like magnolia or rhodiola or some of these herbs that are calming phosphatidylserine can be incredibly helpful for calming that stress response at night. 
Turning off the brain and people who think, you know, and they get caught up in these thoughts and are stuck awake, 5-HTP can be helpful, which is a precursor of serotonin. Then the GABA I mentioned before. 
Then some people have blood sugar issues at night. And what happens is they have maybe a bag of popcorn before bed and then the blood sugar kind of rises, and then several hours later, 1, 2 a.m., it drops. And that drop in blood sugar will trigger a response of cortisol, and that cortisol will wake them out of a deep sleep, and they'll be wide awake. [00:11:25] 
So one of the things that the blood sugar issues is to eat maybe a tiny bit of snack, but it's a fat or protein instead of a carb before bed, and that can keep them sleeping through the night. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, this is so great because it's something that listeners can even apply today if they're having one of those issues. Let's also touch on the impact of technology. How have you seen screen time affect people's overall health? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: The blue light affects our retina and most of our screens are, you know, iPads and our computers or laptops or iPhones. They all have this pretty intense blue light. And that basically tells our body, Hey, it's morning. Wake up.
In fact, one of the strategies where people have trouble waking up is getting a lot of sunlight or blue light in the morning. What you want at night is red light. You can even change the bulbs in your bedroom. You can buy these at Home Depot or any sort of store. Buy just a red bulb and put that in your bedroom light bulbs in your nightstand or whatever your lamps. Those will be red. And then you can still read or do stuff at night but it's calming to your retina to your nervous system and it doesn't induce a state of alertness. [00:12:28] 
There are some apps, I don't know all the names of them, that actually change the screen so that they're a little bit more user-friendly at night. That can be helpful if you're really sensitive. 
Then there's glasses called blue blockers that you can wear. I have several pairs. I actually don't wear them but people send me their cool products all the time and I've had a few of them that are pretty neat and they can be worn at bedtime or maybe say after 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. so that you don't get a lot of that blue light into your retina before bed.
 
Some people really swear by these. There's no supplements, no drugs involved. It's just literally changing the light that enters your retina right before bed. 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 
Over $11.5 million worth of food is distributed to over 1,700 nonprofit organizations each month. [00:13:31] In 2017 alone, over 132,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings worldwide. 
More than 3.6 million people were impacted last year. This is done from their eight United States and two international locations. To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 
Laura Dugger: What effect does stress have on our health? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Oh my, that's huge isn't it? I love that you ask it because all of us are under quite a bit of stress. There's eustress, which is actually good stress. If we had no stress in our life, we always think, Oh, that'd be great. That would actually be pretty unhealthy because our body does really well with low levels of intermittent stress that are appropriate. [00:14:35] 
You know how you've had maybe a project that you need to do and you feel the stress and you need to get it done, but that little bit of stress actually helps you to achieve your goal. So there is some stress that's good. 
But what happens to most of us is nowadays we're 24-7 culture. So our email, our Facebook and social medias, they're like 24-7. And I know so many of my patients, the last thing before they go to bed, first thing when they wake up, their phones are by their bed stand and they're checking email or social media. On the weekends, they're checking, you know, their work email. 
So it's really hard for people to disconnect, and that's stressful to our bodies. I live in Boulder, Colorado and there's some wonderful hiking trails and biking. And so I recommend for myself and my patients that we get out Get unplugged and really get into nature and enjoy that time away from all of our electronics and the things that are asking us to do more.
Our inbox and our email can be so... Like, if we go just by what the inbox says, we're constantly responding to demands, and that's so stressful. 
Then, I mean, people have relationships and children and parents that are getting older, and they have, you know, unexpected deaths in families, and so many of these things are very, very stressful, and work life can be stressful. [00:15:41] 
I really suggest with this that you find what your source of strength or resource is. For me, it's two things. It's prayer and meditation, talking to God, and it's being out in nature and being with my puppies. So those things for me, I just make sure that I work them into every single week and sometimes every single day so that I have that outlet. 
Other people might be going for a bike ride or taking a class or doing something they enjoy. And then the other thing we found in studies that relates to happiness and satisfaction and lower stress levels is just having a purpose. So having something you're doing, whether it's your occupation or even outside your occupation, that is making a difference in serving others. I find that that is so profoundly helpful in our stress levels and it really makes a difference. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, I'm loving all your practical suggestions. What role do genetics play in contributing to our overall level of health? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Genetics are a mixed bag. You know, we've gone through several different eras and genetics for a while were very fatalistic. You get this gene and you're prone, you're going to have this disease. [00:16:41] 
Now, there are a few things that genetically are dominant like Huntington's disease. So if you get that gene, you probably will get the disease. But that's actually the exception rather than the rule. And so most genetics can be altered by environmental exposure. And that would include your diet, your sleep, your stress levels, all these things we're talking about. 
So, the good news is, most of the time, gene expression is determined a lot by what you do, how you live, the stress reduction techniques you take, the food you take, the vitamins and nutrients. I often, with patients, will help them find ways, whether it's nutritional supplementation or changes in diet or sleep to actually alter their genetic expression.
To me, that's exciting because you don't have to be deterministic or fatalistic about what you are born with. I, for example, I have had a history of breast cancer, which I mentioned, Crohn's disease, and about four years ago now, I had a mold exposure that made me very sick, and all of those had to do with my dysfunctional genetics with relation to I have a celiac genetic, I have susceptibility to infections and toxins like mold. 
And all of these things could have taken me down. But what I did is I chose to live really clean, eat really well, do whatever I can to take care of myself, and I actually function pretty well despite my genetics. And I teach patients to do the same. [00:17:57] 
Laura Dugger: I think that offers a lot of hope as well. What about lifestyle and community? How do you see relationships impact your patients' overall health? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Oh, this is huge, because it's kind of like the idea that here at the office, our underlying mission is loving people, because people want connection and people need connection. And there's so many studies that show, even from infants and newborns on, that if they're not held and touched, and physical touch and connection with human beings is absolutely essential to our health. 
So what I see is, you know, some patients will have patterns that may be dysfunctional childhood or where they didn't feel completely loved. Those things can be changed, but we have to reprogram all of that stuff in order to get well and to find health and healing. So dealing with those things are important. 
Then also currently in your life, making sure you have good friends. It doesn't have to be a spouse or a boyfriend or girlfriend. But you do need to have friends and people that you can rely on. And if you don't have a significant other, you need to have friends that you can hug and that you can actually have a physical touch with a friend. And that's perfectly appropriate and incredibly important for our well-being. [00:18:59] 
Laura Dugger: I second all of that. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: One more thing about relationships. I wanted to mention because we talked about all this great stuff hug and touch and connection. But one thing I've learned is that most of us who are in this kind of profession, maybe your listeners too, are empathetic, they feel deeply for people. And that's a really incredible trait to have. 
But you're very prone to people called energy vampires. So the other thing you need to do is make sure that you limit contact with people that are just not, you know, not good for you, not healthy and maybe draining. You can be kind, but you need to set good boundaries. And that's actually really important as well as the connection. 
Laura Dugger: And sometimes people think that food choice is the hardest to change to make an effort toward moving toward a healthier lifestyle. So what are some baby steps that listeners can take as it relates to their nutritional intake? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Nutrition-wise, I recommend a mostly organic, 100% if possible, non-GMO, so not genetically modified, free of pesticides, chemicals, all of that, which would go with organic. Lots of local, if possible. It's not always possible. Whenever I can go to the local farmer's market and get things that are just picked or cut from the garden, that's the best. [00:20:06] 
Then lots of leafy greens, plant-based, is ideal. I'm actually what most people would consider paleo. But when people hear the word paleo, they think of all this meat and bacon and eggs. I don't do that at all. I'm actually a very, very plant-based, like salads and leafy greens and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. 
I only eat meat maybe three times a week. But I still consider myself paleo because I'm grain-free, legume-free, dairy-free, and gluten-free. For most of my patients who are super sensitive, gluten is the most important thing to eliminate, but many of them have to eliminate dairy, egg, and sugar as well. Other things that are common culprits are corn and soy and alcohol. That tends to be the kind of diet most of my patients are on. 
Laura Dugger: Are there any other factors that affect our health of which we may be unaware? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah. So not many people are talking about electromagnetic radiation. That could be from cell phone towers or from a building with a lot of Wi-Fi. And not everyone is completely sensitive to this, but especially the higher we go from 4G to 5G, these are having a bigger impact on our bodies. [00:21:06] 
I have a lot of patients that are extra sensitive and can really tell when they're in a high Wi-Fi area and they don't feel as well. So those are the things that you can't see, you may not even be able to feel, but can be important. 
Some simple things you can do, or make sure you don't have a smart meter right behind the headboard of your bed and the wall, on the outside of your house, that can be a real big impact. You can make sure your iPhone, iPad, and those things are turned off or on airplane mode at night. At a very more significant exposure, patients can even turn off their router at night as well, and that can be helpful. 
Laura Dugger: Did you know podcasts like The Savvy Sauce are estimated to cost roughly $500 per episode to produce? This cost includes expenses such as equipment, web hosting, and programming, in addition to the many hours our team spends to bring you the high-quality episodes. 
Sponsors are not always consistent, and that gives you an opportunity to support conversations you love and make more possible. Our team is so delighted for the opportunity to do this work and get the good news to as many nations as possible. [00:22:08] 
Will you consider partnering with us? Go to thesavvysauce.com and click the "Patreon" tab for more information. Thanks for participating. 
We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so I'd love to hear, Dr. Jill, what is your savvy sauce? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow, I love that. Okay, that's easy. So most people maybe sense this, but I don't always explicitly say it. But the thing that drives me at home in my friendships and work, and especially in my practice in my office, is just a really simple thing. And that's to love God and basically glorify God and love people. So it goes upward and it goes outward to people. 
And I even treat each of my staff. You know, if you have all this paperwork and all these calls to make and you don't get any of it done, but you have loved the people that walk in the door today, I'm totally happy as your boss. You have completely done your job. 
So that underneath kind of my secret mission in life is really just to love people. I don't always do it perfectly, but my goal and my drive and my secret sauce is to love people better each day. [00:23:16] 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is incredible. And I think you do a great job with that. Dr. Jill, you are not only a brilliant doctor, but also a respectable and exceptionally kind woman. So thank you for spending time with us today. Where can listeners find you online? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You are welcome, Laura. I loved it. Wish we had more time, but hopefully next time. Listeners can visit me at my website, which is just my name, jillcarnahan.com. I have all kinds of great free resources. If you want to stay in touch, you can sign up for my free newsletter as well. 
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We'll link to all of that in the show notes. Thanks again for joining us. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You're welcome. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:24:21] 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:25:23] 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:26:29] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

32 Spiritual Maturity with Ministry Leader, Jonna Harkness

32. Spiritual Maturity with Ministry Leader, Jonna Harkness
 
**Transcription Below**
 
2 Corinthians 3:18 (ESV) “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”
 
Jonna Harkness is married to Tim and mother of two adult daughters and one son-in-law. Jonna is both the women’s ministry director and biblical counseling director for Harvest Peoria, which is the church where her husband is the head pastor. 
 
Harvest Peoria
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Hey friends, we wouldn't be here without our sponsors. If you're interested in sponsoring an episode of The Savvy Sauce, please reach out to us at info at thesavvysauce.com. 
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Today I get to introduce you to Jonna Harkness. Jonna is both the women's ministry director and biblical counseling director for the church where her husband is the head pastor, Harvest Peoria. Jonna has been married to Tim for 24 years. She's the mother of two adult daughters and a new son-in-law, although, through all of this, she will share how her true identity is as a child of God. 
Today we get to hear her story of spiritual growth through various seasons. We learn where to start praying scripture over our family, and she shares some incredible examples of powerful stories she and her husband taught their two daughters. I hope you enjoy this chat. [00:01:54] 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Jonna. Thanks for joining us today. 
Jonna Harkness: Thanks for having me. 
Laura Dugger: Well, for anybody who's listening and doesn't know you already, we'd all want to get to know you better. So can you just share what your life was like before becoming a Christian? 
Jonna Harkness: Well, I actually became a Christian when I was seven years old, so my life was pretty tame, I would suppose. Although I did grow up in a kind of a difficult situation. So even though I became a Christian at a young age, the home that I grew up in with my mom and my stepfather, they didn't take me to church. 
So I started by taking a bus to church. And then as I got older, I would go with friends. And so even though I became a Christian at a young age, it was kind of a weird situation because I wasn't living in a Christian home. 
Laura Dugger: Okay, so you piqued my interest. You started taking a bus to church. How did you even find out about a church that was available? 
Jonna Harkness: Well, actually, I think a friend of mine was taking the bus, so I took it also. [00:02:58] I think my sister... I actually recently asked my sister how she ended up becoming a Christian, and she did the same thing, but we didn't go together. I know that's kind of crazy. 
My parents divorced when I was a year old. They met at Bible school. When they divorced, my mom was really kind of hurt by, felt like the church had let her down in a way, or Christianity had let her down. My dad continued going to church and stuff, but they were like a thousand miles apart. 
I mean, literally, my dad lived in a state so far away from us. So I only saw him mostly during the summer. But when I was with him, he would take us to church. It was very evangelical. Southern Baptist, you know, so I heard the gospel from him and I saw the life that he had and it seemed like such a calm environment, which of course wasn't perfect. But you don't know that when you're a kid. [00:03:59] 
But I thought, well, I want to know this Jesus, too. That's actually how I was interested in knowing Jesus as my Savior. And then went to the church, and it was a Baptist church, and they presented the gospel in Sunday school, and I said I wanted to receive Jesus as my Savior. 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. Seven years old. If you're looking back, how did your life change from that point forward? 
Jonna Harkness: Well, I would love to say that my life was perfect from that point forward, but we had a rough situation. My mom married a man who had been to Vietnam and was not a believer and his father was an alcoholic. And so there was a lot of hard stuff that went on in our home. It was a very volatile situation. 
They separated several times. The first time was when I was nine. Then when I was 15, they divorced. They remarried again when I was 16, and then when I was 17, they divorced again. 
So on the one hand, I would say that my life... I don't know if I would have survived if I didn't have the Lord. But on the other hand, I made a lot of bad decisions. [00:05:16] I was hurting and felt like even the Lord didn't really want me and that my salvation was a mistake. That He was kind of like, well, you prayed the prayer, so I'll let you in, but don't bother me. That was kind of my view of God. 
The amazing thing is that God never stopped loving me and proving that that wasn't true. My sophomore year of college, I had gone to visit my old youth pastor. So when they divorced the first time... I grew up in Florida, and they divorced the first time we moved to Illinois. I started going to church. When you grow up in a situation where you're not going to church with your family, you always feel a little bit like an outsider anyway. But there I felt welcomed. 
But my sophomore year of college, I was visiting my youth pastor and he told me that if I had died when my mom and my step dad divorced the second time, that I would have gone to hell because I got angry with God when it happened. And I believed him, which was really dumb. [00:06:26] I tell people I believed a man over the Word of God. 
God used those next several years to show me that it wasn't the case. Scripture does clearly say that when you receive Jesus as your Savior, you have the Holy Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing your inheritance with him, and there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and so many other scriptures. 
Some people will say, are you angry with him that he said that? And my answer is no, because I really believe that God used that moment to throw my life out of kilter so that I would stop living a roller coaster life. Over the next couple of years, I questioned God and wrote down all my questions and through a series of several things that happened, God proved to me who He was, which He had no responsibility to do that, no obligation, but He just loves us. I was not entitled to that, but He gave it anyway. [00:07:34] 
The day before I graduated from college, I turned my heart back over to Him and I've pretty much never... I mean, I've messed up since, but I've never turned away from the Lord since. My life verse is from 2 Corinthians 5:14. It says, "The love of Christ controls us." And my prayer is that His love would... We haven't quite achieved that yet, but my prayer is that His love will be what motivates me in all that I do. 
It goes on to say that we would no longer live for ourselves, but for Him who died and gave Himself for us. So my prayer is that I would live for Him, which means that He's going to be part of every aspect of my life. 
Laura Dugger: That scripture is so powerful. If somebody's listening today and they want to find or identify their own life verse, could you share with them what your process looked like or any recommendations you would have? 
Jonna Harkness: You know, I just have a love for God's word and I believe that that is one of the most important things we could possibly do with our lives is know his word. I don't know science great, I don't have good grammar and there's a lot I don't know, but I definitely want to be so knowledgeable of His word. [00:08:55] 
For someone who's looking for a life verse, I would say we're really fortunate in this day and age to have Google. There are so many times I type in what does scripture say about dot, dot, dot. So, if there is something that you really want to focus on in your own walk with the Lord, Google scripture about that subject and you'll find tons of scripture that will line up with that. 
When one really, really hits you and you feel like, wow, if I could have this be what defines me by the end of my life, that people could say this about me, then that would be the verse you would choose. 
Laura Dugger: I love that. You gives us something so practical that we can all go home and do today. Let's just look through your spiritual walk. So you became a Christian when you were seven, walked us through a little bit of that, really turning your full heart over even in college. And then you got married. How did you grow spiritually as a newlywed? [00:09:57]  
Jonna Harkness: Well, I think you really need the Lord as a newlywed. You know, I think one of the best-kept secrets is that the first year of marriage can be one of the hardest years. I think so many people, they don't want anybody to know that it's hard. And marriage is hard. You're two sinners living in the same home. 
For Tim and me, my husband's name is Tim, we were both fighters. I came from a pretty rough background, he came from a very good home, where his dad was an elder in the church, his parents had been married for 55 years now. And he had been through difficult circumstances, but not from blow-ups in his home. But we were two sinners living in the same home, and still are after 24 years. 
So it was probably that I needed to rely on the Lord in order to learn to love him well. And I'm still needing to do that. If he were sitting right here, he might say, yes, she has a little bit more work to do. But learning to get on my knees before the Lord, literally get on my knees before the Lord, and beg Him for help. [00:11:12] 
Like I said, I really believed that God didn't want me. That carried through. I mean, I think today, when I get up, there are many times where I struggle with thinking that God's angry with me or disappointed in me, and it's something I have to lay before Him every day.
I am a runner, and I had big problems with my ankles where I had to wear braces on my ankles for about seven months. I obviously couldn't run during that time. And even though I'm not in braces anymore and I'm running again, I still wake up every day with tight ankles. I have to loosen them up so that I can walk around. And once I get them loosened, I'm fine. And I compare that to I wake up every day with a hard heart and it needs to be loosened up. 
For me, and this may not be true for everybody, but for me, part of having a hard heart is waking up feeling that God isn't happy with me or doesn't love me or whatever. And so I immediately have to start speaking the truth of his word from the moment I get up. I have to hand that over to the Lord and start speaking the truth of His word over what my feelings are. And that softens my heart so that I can give Him the rest of the day. Throughout the day, I need to continue to speak truth. [00:12:36] 
But that definitely affected my marriage early on, and probably continues even to today, although it's tons better than it was back then. But when my husband told me he loved me, I didn't hear it. I thought, for me, that it just didn't mean anything to me. And so learning to be able to receive his love and accept that when he says he loves me, He means it. 
And learning to be able to pray for him, and to pray scripture for him, and to give our relationship to the Lord. I do have a scripture that I pray for us. I pray lots of scripture for us, but there's one particular passage that I pray that our... I guess if you could choose the life verse for our marriage, the hope and prayer that I have for our marriage, it's Romans 15:5-6, and it says, "May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." That's my prayer for our marriage. So that's kind of where I've headed. [00:13:47] 
I know a lot of people, a lot of women think, well, if we're not praying together at every moment and we're not studying scripture together all the time, then we can't have a spiritually strong home. To some people's displeasure, I've pointed out the fact that the Bible doesn't require us to pray together as a husband and wife. 
I'm not saying that we shouldn't. We absolutely should. And I believe very strongly in that. But if your husband is not praying with you, it does not mean that God can't be glorified. A lot of women also feel like, well, their relationship with God can't be strong unless their husband's relationship with God is strong. But we are individuals. My relationship with God is not dependent on my husband's relationship with God. 
So it's really important for us, I believe, to not put the responsibility of our relationship with God on our husbands, though they are responsible. They stand before God and answer for it. But that's their issue, not ours as women. I just think it's really important for us to recognize that our relationship with God is something that we can pursue no matter what our husband's relationship with God looks like. [00:15:05] 
Laura Dugger: That makes sense and frees us up to pursue Him wherever we're at. 
Jonna Harkness: Absolutely. 
Laura Dugger: So then a little bit of a follow-up to that. Do you feel like you and Tim were instantly growing the same way together? 
Jonna Harkness: No, not at all. I would say it was different. Tim has always had a huge passion for God's Word. He was an engineer for a total of 17 years. So probably about 13 of that was our marriage, and then he became a pastor. 
I would say early on, though he taught in the church and we were very faithful to go to church, it was a little bit more mechanical or more head knowledge for him. He'll tell you he grew up in a more of a legalistic environment in his church and so it was you just know the Bible and you do the right thing. Somewhere along the way his passion for the Lord grew to where he understood that it's about worship. 
His first phrase that he said as the senior pastor of our church was, it's not about my comfort, it's about my King. And that was the first time I had ever heard anything like that. And that was 10 years ago. It was like the Holy Spirit just jumped inside of me. It was like, yes, that's exactly right. It's not about my comfort. It's about my King. [00:16:28] 
So where he was always much more solid in integrity and just knew the right thing to do, but maybe didn't have that passion for the Lord early on. I had an extreme passion for the Lord, but I did really dumb things all the time and said dumb things, and put my foot in my mouth constantly. Sometimes I've gone back to him and said, now, why did you marry me? So he said, because I always knew that you had a desire to follow the Lord, so I knew that He was going to work all that stuff out in you. He's still working it out, but it's gotten a lot better than it was. 
Laura Dugger: And you're not giving yourself any credit. For everybody who knows Jonna, she's so loving and just presents this peace and calm and so many wonderful things we see. 
Jonna Harkness: Thank you. 
Laura Dugger: What are some tips then, for somebody who is listening, maybe they're a newlywed and they're not on the same page right now? So do you have any suggestions or best practices that you've learned to help them move in that direction? [00:17:31] 
Jonna Harkness: Yeah. The first thing is I would say pursue your own relationship with the Lord and pray for your husband and pray scripture for your husband. With biblical counseling, I talk to a lot of women who they get angry with their husbands for not being the man they expect them to be. And I'll ask them, are you praying for him? And they'll say, no, or I don't want to, or I'm praying things that I probably shouldn't pray or, you know, whatever. But they're not dealing with their own heart, they're just judging their husband's heart. 
I would say, make sure you're seeking the Lord, you're pursuing that relationship with the Lord first. Then praying scripture for your husband. A great scripture you can pray for your husband is 1 Corinthians 16:13-14. And it says, "Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let everything you do be done in love." That is a scripture that I pray for my husband. I pray for my daughter's husband. I've been praying that for my other daughter's husband that we don't know who he is yet. But I'm praying that that's who God is making him to be right now. [00:18:43] 
It just covers everything, that they would do it in love, that they'll act like a man of God, that they'll be strong, that they'll be watchful so they don't fall into temptation, standing firm in their faith so they're men of integrity. That's something that we can pray for our husbands. We don't have to sit there and judge them if that's not who they are right now, but entrust him to the Lord and let God lead him. 
If he is a guy who's pursuing the Lord, then celebrate that and thank him and encourage him in those things and appreciate that in him. Look for the ways that you can be building him up rather than tearing him down. 
There are a lot of times that we have expectations of what it should be, and so we live with resentment because they haven't met an expectation. But if you look in scripture, the only expectation that we can have is that the Lord will fulfill His promises. [00:19:44] 
But when we're looking at other people, we can't expect things of them. And even with the expectation that the Lord will fulfill His promises, it's in the way He chooses to do, not the way we expect Him to do. The other thing with that, this might be where I sound a little bit old-fashioned, but I think it is the husband's role to lead in that. And if he's not leading in that, our job is not to stay quiet, but to share our hearts and then entrust it to the Lord. 
Laura Dugger: Could you give examples or stories to illustrate what that would look like? Kind of what you're saying it is and what it isn't. 
Jonna Harkness: Yeah. So I'll have to give somebody else's story. There's a woman that I'm friends with. She's married to a man who's not a believer. She became a Christian just in the last couple of years. It's been amazing to watch her just embrace God's word. 
She realized that she was angry with her husband, that she was always criticizing him. She went to him and she apologized for that, and she started just loving him. [00:20:55] She asked him to come to church with her. At first, she kind of pushed him and said, "You have to come to church. I'm getting baptized. You have to come." He was really put off by that and said, "Don't shove your stuff down my throat," so she realized that she needed to back off. 
One time she went to him and she said to him, "I want you to know that I love you and this is truly what I believe about the Bible and I want you to be in heaven with me. My prayer is that you're going to believe this to be true, but now I'm just going to pray for you." 
He ended up coming to church with her soon after that. He's come a couple times, still not there, still praying for his salvation. But we continue to pray and see what the Lord's going to do in his life. But I know that he's a lot closer with her showing him love than he was with her badgering him. 
1 Peter 3, right after it says about not reviling and not threatening but entrusting to the Lord, in chapter 3 it says, "Likewise wives, submit to your husbands so that even if they don't obey the word, they can be one without a word when they see your pure and respectful conduct." [00:22:19] 
So truly, as much as we think it's our words that are going to make the difference, we think we're in control, if we can say enough words, then we can impact and make the difference. And it's really us stepping back and saying, Lord, I'm leaving you to work on his heart, and I'm going to treat him with love and respect. And I'm going to pray for him. 
When the moments arise, I'm going to pray for opportunities to maybe share what God's teaching me or to say, "Hey, would you like to come to church with me this Sunday? This is a special day because of whatever." And then if he says no, then you let it go. And if he says yes, then you don't pounce on him with excitement. And it's hard. It is so hard. 
I mean, it's even hard for a marriage when your husband is a believer and he goes to church, but he's not really walking closely with the Lord. So even more so when you have this passion for the Lord and he knows nothing about it. So it's understandable that it's hard. 
Also to have other women that you can go to that are going to pray for you and pray for him that aren't going to say, "You're right, he's a jerk, he should (whatever)," but are going to say, "let's look at what the Bible says, let's pray about this, let's see how we can honor God in this, and are going to call you to higher ground." [00:23:40] 
Laura Dugger: You've also mentioned, not only are you married, you're also a mom. So going back a little bit, how did your life change spiritually, maybe some of the new challenges and joys that came along once you had daughters? 
Jonna Harkness: Okay, well, I was scared to death that I was going to be a terrible mom. It was really interesting because I had a big temper and I got angry when they were little. I started just begging the Lord. to change my heart. I really don't believe we can change ourselves. 
2 Corinthians 3 clearly says, in verses 16 through 18, that it's the Holy Spirit who transforms us and that we can't transform ourselves. So I started going to the Lord and saying, Lord, I want to love my girls. I started praying also... I love scripture. I started praying Zephaniah 3:17 for them. It says, "The Lord your God is with you. He is mighty to save. He delights in you greatly. He quiets you with His love. He rejoices over you with singing." 
And I said, "Lord, if that's who you are with me, will you help me to be that with my daughters?" [00:24:51] So I started praying that I would delight in them rather than getting angry with them, that I would quiet them with my love and not my anger, and I would rejoice over them with singing. And God began to work in my heart. 
When they were a little bit older, we ended up homeschooling them and I kind of say, "You know, God uses marriage to make you holy, then He gives you children, and then you're going to be really holy." And then if He has you homeschool, which I am not the typical homeschooling mom at all, so I was like, "This is crazy." But I really believed that God was leading us there. When we started homeschooling, you're with them 24 hours a day, and you have a responsibility to get your heart right with God. 
So I started wearing scripture around my neck that when I was starting to lose it, I would lift it up and I would read it, and my kids would laugh at me. I'd say, "You can laugh, but this is saving your life." I just really handed it over to the Lord. [00:25:52] 
I mean, you have a responsibility to cooperate with the Lord and when He's leading you to follow. But it was really interesting because it was after we moved here. My oldest was 12, my youngest was 9 when we moved here. And we were driving down the road somewhere, and I think it was maybe a year after we moved here, and I started talking to my girls about what God had done in our lives, and I started to cry. 
And I said, "I'm so sorry for how angry I would get with you." My oldest daughter said, "Mom, I don't remember that." I just wanted to bawl and praise the Lord, because I really thought that my kids would grow up and resent me for the anger that I had had. Because taking them to the grocery store when they're little, I think you should get extra jewels in your crown if you can make it through without getting frustrated. And the Lord worked in my heart and helped me to overcome the anger. So I was just so grateful for what He had done. [00:27:01] 
He definitely has used my kids every step of the way. Even now that we're kind of empty nesters, we still have one in college and she's home during the summers or breaks, but we're pretty much empty nesters. Even now, learning to rely on Him as a parent because everything has changed. 
My daughter got married a week ago and I have to learn to let her have her new life with her husband. She has to leave and cleave to him. And I can't speak in the way I did five years ago. I had to start learning that even before they went away to college. We called it the release plan, that we had to prepare our kids so that when they did go away, they weren't all of a sudden like, "Oh, now I have all this freedom."
So we had to move towards that freedom by giving them a little bit as time went on and helping build trust, hoping to instill a love for the Lord in them and help them to learn to transfer their dependence on us to a dependence on the Lord. That was our goal — not to teach them to be independent, but to depend on the Lord rather than depending on us. [00:28:15] 
It sounds great, but learning to now not speak in when I see something, or not be... my daughter just got home from her honeymoon and she's sick, and not run over there and say, "What can I do to help?" And recognize that I have to let them work it out. So every step of the way I have to lean on the Lord and trust Him and ask Him to give me direction. 
The scripture that I took to heart when we started homeschooling is one that I continue every step of the way. It's Isaiah 42:16. It says, "I will lead the blind in ways they have not known; in paths they have not known, I will guide them. I will make the darkness as light before them and the rough places smooth. These are the things that I do and I do not forsake them." Obviously, that's God speaking. 
I have felt blind as a mother every step of the way, and so I need Him to lead me. I need to recognize that my identity is not in being a mom or being a women's ministry director or being a pastor's wife. My identity is being a child of God. And that's the only thing that's never going to change. [00:29:28] 
Laura Dugger: Wow. I think so many of us will relate to feeling blind in whatever phase we're in right now. I relate to the mom. 
Jonna Harkness: Yeah. I always used to say you dream of being a mom and then you become one and you feel like a failure pretty much the rest of your life. 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: That's even encouraging in an odd way that you're still learning even as your children have left the nest. Looking back to the times that they were with you, does anything stand out, or maybe a lesson that you taught your daughters you could share with us? 
Jonna Harkness: Yeah. My oldest daughter, Megan, was the type that if you say, this is the line, don't cross the line, she would go as close to the line as possible and kind of look at you like, This line? My other daughter was like, Oh, if that's the line, I'm five feet the other direction. I'm not going anywhere near that line. [00:31:38] But Megan was a little bit of a challenge. 
So, I remember I was riding my bike one day and I was praying about it and I was saying, "Lord, she just isn't listening to me. I don't know what to do." I don't hear God audibly, but I just heard, I guess in my heart, the Lord say, "Well, why should you expect her to listen to you when you don't listen to me?" And I was like, "But it's so hard. I can't do it without your help." 
Then immediately the scripture came to my mind from John 15 that says, "I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in me, apart from me, you can do nothing." And I was like, "Yeah, I can't do it." So how is it that I've been expecting her to do it without the Lord's strength? I haven't taught her to ask the Lord for help. I've just disciplined her and expected behavior modification, which without heart change, that means nothing. It's like a Nerf ball that you squeeze. But as soon as they're away from you, the Nerf ball opens up and they're just going to be who they were. [00:32:38] So we have to go after heart change, even with our kids. 
I got back from the bike ride and my daughter was sitting with my husband up in our bed. She had just woken up and climbed into bed with him. And I said, "Megan, I need to apologize to you. I have been expecting you to behave me just in your own strength, but I can't even do that in my own strength." I showed her the verse in John 15:5, and we had a plant, a philodendron in our room, and I said, "Okay, we're going to pull one of these leaves off of this plant, and we're going to set it right next to it and we're going to see if it turns green or stays green or turns black or what happens. 
So every day we would go and look and it's not part of the branch. It's separated from the branch, but it's still sitting next to it. And we would look and it wasn't changing. It was staying green. It was about two weeks later... Now, I kill plants so easily. I couldn't believe it took so long.
About two weeks after that, there was just this little dot in the plant, or in the leaf. We looked at it, and then still kept coming back, and it took about two months before that leaf turned completely black. And I said, you know what, Megan, this is an even bigger lesson for me, because we can think that we're doing just fine because we still look good on the outside, but we're not getting any better, and our heart will turn black eventually. So it's really, really important that we stay close to the Lord, no matter how it looks right now. [00:34:20] And she's never forgotten that. 
And honestly, one other thing that happened. This wasn't me. This was my husband. It was Easter. She was five years old and she had just kind of been in a yucky mood all morning. We had gone to church and we came back and she was still being naughty. We didn't spank a lot, but this was one time where He said, "Megan, I want you to go up to your room and I'm going to be up there in a little bit." And she said, "Am I going to get spanking?" And he said, "We're going to talk about it."
So he waited a little bit and he went up there and he said, "you know what, Megan, this is Easter. This is the day that we celebrate that Jesus rose again because He gave Himself for us. So I'm not going to spank you today. I want you to spank me." And she started to cry. And she's like, "Daddy, I can't spank you." And he said, "Honey, you need to see what Jesus did for you." 
And he said, "I want you to spank me as hard as you can." She finally, after some coaxing, she spanked him, but it wasn't hard. And he said, "It didn't hurt, Megan. You need to spank me hard." So she just broke down crying and she spanked him really hard and then she fell in his arms and he held her and he said, "This is what Jesus did for us." [00:35:42] 
She was completely a different person the rest of the day. But even today, if you were to ask her about that, she's 21 years old and she remembers that and what a huge impact it had on her to know that God took her punishment. 
Laura Dugger: And you can't see, now I'm tearing up just hearing that. It's so powerful. 
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So Jonna, now as a parent of adults who are, like you said, pretty much out of the house, one who still comes back in the summers, how are you growing spiritually in this season? [00:36:51] 
Jonna Harkness: I guess I'm gonna sound like a broken record. I spend time with the Lord every day. I really work to not compartmentalize Him so that this is my time with you Lord and now I'll let you know if I need you again. But He's the center.
I think one of the biggest things is I have to recognize that my identity is in Him and in nothing else and no one else. For a long time I was a homeschooling mom, and now I'm not a homeschooling mom. Right now I'm a pastor's wife, but there's going to be a day where he's not going to be pastor anymore. So I have to learn to lean on Him. 
One thing that God has done over the years that's just kind of amazing. When I was pregnant with my oldest, Megan, I found out that my liver and kidneys weren't working properly and I almost died with her. I was in the hospital, which she was five weeks early, she was fine, everything worked out great. [00:37:54] 
But I was in the hospital and the pastor that married Tim and I, who was from his home church came to visit me in the hospital and he said, "You know, it's just like the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. They said, "We will serve the Lord no matter what, even if He doesn't save us, we're going to serve Him and worship him." And I was like, "Leave my room." I wanted to throw something at him. I want my baby to be okay and I want to live. But I didn't say a word to him. I just looked at him, but I'm like, where's the closest object that I can throw at him? 
Then when I got pregnant with my second daughter, they said that most likely I wouldn't have the same thing happen, but it did, but it wasn't as severe. The week that I found out, actually the day that I found out that I had the same problem with her, I was in a Bible study and we were studying the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And I was like, Okay, it's gonna be okay. [00:38:53] 
Fast forward to five years ago, my husband was diagnosed with a benign brain tumor that was affecting his hormones, and he was like a 95-year-old man. All of his hormones were collapsing, and he was starting to go blind because it was pushing up against his optic chiasm. And he got up in front of the church to tell them that he was going to have to have surgery. He found out on his birthday that he had the tumor, and two weeks later he was having surgery to have it removed. 
He got up in front of the church and he said, it's the same words that Matt Chandler said about his brain tumor, "My God can, my God will, and even if He doesn't, I will worship Him," which is the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego story. And I was like, "But Lord, I'm not ready to say 'and even if he doesn't'." And I was like, "Lord, just my God can and my God will. Let's go with that." 
He did get through the surgery and he was fine and they thought they had gotten at least most of it. But about a year later, we found out or I guess two years later, we found out that it had grown back and it was almost to the size that it was the first time. So it had to be taken out pretty quickly. [00:40:11] He got up in front of the church and he said, "My God can, my God will, and even if He doesn't, I will worship Him." 
At that point, I was able to say, "Yes, that's where I am." In December, almost three years after, we found out that the tumor is growing back and he will be having surgery again in April to have it removed. And we are still in a place where we can gladly say, "My God can, my God will, and even if He doesn't, we will worship Him." 
So, I think God's taken us through enough that I realize that He's not going to leave our side when things are hard. He's going to let us go through some hard times, and we don't understand that because He has the power to stop it, but He also will walk through every step of the way with us. 
And when I look at what He's done in my life, to mention what He's done in my girls lives and in my husband's life, but just for my life teaching me that my God can and He will. And even if He doesn't I can worship Him because He is still my strength and He is still my Salvation and He is still gonna walk through every step of the way with me and be my peace. [00:41:35] 
Laura Dugger: Wow. That transparency is just beautiful and I think something that each of us can do today, no matter where we're at listening to this podcast or where it finds us. God works outside of time and we can all be praying and lifting up you and Tim in this process. 
Jonna Harkness: Oh, thank you. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing. Looking back, what do you wish that you would have done in all of these seasons? 
Jonna Harkness: I wish I would have laid down pride, truly. If there's anything that I could get rid of in my life, it would be pride. I think that my pride got me into trouble because when you are proud, you push people away. I would defend myself rather than looking necessarily at what's true. But when you're proud, you think that it is true. 
So God has used all of the experiences that I've been through over the years to continue to humble me, and he's still working on that in me. I'm thankful that I'm not as prideful and proud as I was 20 years ago, but He still has some work to do. [00:42:46] But if I could remove that, I think it would have saved me and others a lot of heartache. 
Laura Dugger: That's such an insidious sin that we maybe aren't aware of in ourselves. I definitely relate. 
Jonna Harkness: I remember Beth Moore had this poem that she wrote about pride where it's all these things. I will damage you in all of these different ways. And at the very end, she said, but don't worry, if you stick with me, you'll never know. Because the person who's proud, they think it's everybody else. So learning to recognize that I need to deal with my own crud and not just point the finger at others. 
Laura Dugger: Turning it on a positive side as you look back at all these seasons, what are you so glad that you did then that you're reaping the benefits of now?
Jonna Harkness: I am so glad that I never turned away from the Lord. That truly is what I can be thankful for. I'm so glad I had a husband who never gave up on me, that never walked away from our marriage. [00:43:56] He's always stuck in there. When we would get into fights, which we are pretty good fighters, which I don't recommend, he would never let it go like going days without talking or anything. We're gonna get it resolved. And I'm so grateful for that. 
But what I'm most grateful is that God gave me the strength to keep going back to Him no matter what I didn't believe, no matter how much I struggled, I believed that if I wasn't following Him exactly as His Word said, it was because my heart was wrong and not because His Word was wrong. So I continued to pursue, and gratefully, He continued to draw near to me. 
Laura Dugger: Love it. 
Jonna Harkness: The truth and the scripture you've shared, it's just been a treasure today. We're going to end on a fun note, as we always do. We're called Savvy for a reason because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. So, Jonna, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:45:07] 
Jonna Harkness: Okay, well, my first thought is what's the one thing that you want to go after? Pick one small thing to do rather than trying to make some drastic change in your life as an overall statement. But because I have such a love for the word And I believe that God reveals so much to us, in Psalm 19 it says that His word enlightens us, and it brings joy to our heart, and it makes us wise, and just this huge list of things that God does through His word. 
So I would say, start to memorize scripture. There is an app that you can get on your phone. There are many apps, I'm sure, but there's one called Versus. And every morning while I'm making my tea, I have a list of verses that I'm memorizing. While I'm making my tea, I'm not a coffee drinker, but if you make coffee, you could do that too, I just go through. It takes about five minutes, and I just go through scripture on this Versus app that I'm learning to memorize.
It starts by having you first tap to reveal the verses, the words, and then listen to it, and then fill in blanks. It's called Word Bank, to where you fill in blanks for words, and it's for each level, it takes more words out. And then you type it out, the beginning of each word, just type the first letter and it puts the word in. [00:46:33] I've memorized quite a bit of scripture doing that. 
Then every once in a while I'll go back and go over scriptures that I've memorized. But what amazes me as I'm memorizing scripture is verses that I think I know, that I've had memorized, I'll realize a facet of the scripture that I hadn't caught by just reading it. Even if I knew it really well, even if I had it memorized going over it... There something sticks out at me that the Lord wants to reveal to me that it's not like taking it out of context or anything. But the principles of scripture are true no matter what but the application to our lives changes based on what we're going through.
So when I'm going through different scriptures, I just see facets of them that I hadn't caught before. So I would say, pick an app from your phone. We're so fortunate to have apps that we can put on and technology today that will help us with some of these things. And so I would say, get that Versus app and start memorizing scripture one little bit at a time. 
Laura Dugger: Awesome. That's amazing. Great idea. Something we can download right now. This time has just been so helpful to me and I hope to everybody listening. So thank you for your time and thanks for coming today. 
Jonna Harkness: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. [00:47:56] 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:49:01] 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:49:55] 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:51:01] 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

31 How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge with Author and Pastor, Clay Scroggins

31. How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge with Author and Pastor, Clay Scroggins
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Luke 16:10 (NIV) “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much”
 
Clay Scroggins is the lead pastor of North Point Community Church, providing visionary and directional leadership for all of the local church staff and congregation. Clay works for Andy Stanley and understands firsthand how to manage the tension of leading when you're not in charge. Starting out as a facilities intern, he has worked his way through many organizational levels at North Point Ministries and knows all too well the challenge of authority deprivation. Clay holds a degree in Industrial Engineering from Georgia Tech as well as a master's degree and a doctorate with an emphasis in Online Church from Dallas Theological Seminary. He lives in Forsyth County, Georgia, with his wife, Jenny, and their five children.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in. We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Clay’s Website 
Clay’s Book
Find Clay on social media platforms @clayscroggins
North Point Community Church
The First 90 Days by Michael D. Watkins
The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
 
 
360-Survey to Ask Others About Yourself:
1. What did I do over the past few years that inspired you? 
2. What did I do that frustrated you? 
3. What do I not know about myself that has become a blind spot?
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: A Perfect Promotion is a promotional marketing company with locations in Illinois and Indiana. They specialize in logoed items as well as screen printing and embroidery. Contact them through their website, aperfectpromotion.com, and let A Perfect Promotion help you with your next business event or promotion. 
Today is going to be a special episode because my husband, Mark Dugger, is going to join as a co-host today, and our guest is Clay Scroggins. 
Mark Dugger: Clay and I go back to our days at Georgia Tech. I always remember Clay being an impressive leader, but he's since gone on to be the lead pastor for North Point Community Church's campus in Alpharetta, Georgia. 
He has recently come out with a new book titled, How to Lead When You're Not in Charge: Leveraging Influence When You Lack Authority. We're really excited to talk with Clay today. 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Clay. 
Clay Scroggins: Thank you, Laura. It's a pleasure to get to be here. Thanks. [00:01:25] 
Laura Dugger: Well, are you willing just to start us off by sharing a bit about your journey before coming on staff with North Point?
Clay Scroggins: Sure. I have done a few podcasts along this process of writing a book, but I have not done one with someone that I have known as long as Mark Dugger. So I have to be super truthful and honest about my background. 
Mark Dugger: We're going to be double-checking everything. 
Clay Scroggins: No, I'm not actually tempted to lie, but I do have to be extra honest. So yeah, I grew up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Great family, parents that were loving and terrific and, older sister, younger sister. So  I am the only boy with an older sister, younger sister. I felt very comfortable in shopping malls. They do a lot of shopping those two. 
Moved to Atlanta in 1998 to go to Georgia Tech. That's where me and Mark met. Go Jackets. Mark was one of the most sought-after recruits in the Georgia Tech fraternity system in 2000. [00:02:30] 
I majored in industrial and systems engineering. I was not very good at it. I say this about my situation, and it's not a joke. This actually happened. I knew I was going to do professional ministry. I knew I wanted to be a pastor, I don't know, maybe at least halfway through my college experience. So I was trying to finish this engineering degree, and it was not going very well. There were some classes that I felt like I needed to take over again just because I hadn't started the content yet, and the school agreed. 
So I'm in the registrar's office telling this lady, "Ma'am, I really need to get out of here." At Georgia Tech, you don't say you graduated. You say, "What year did you get out?" So I said to her, I said, "Look, I don't even want to be an engineer. I just need to get this degree because I'm trying to go to grad school." I said, "Why don't we do a deal? You will promise to give me this degree, I will promise to never use it." That was the exchange we made and an agreement was reached. [00:03:32] 
I ended up passing those classes, finished Georgia Tech in 2003, promptly moved to Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas, which is where I met my gorgeous, lovely, awesome, amazing wife, Jenny. We got married and moved to Atlanta. It was back to Atlanta for me, but it was a big deal for Jenny because she grew up in Texas. I was raised in Texas, went to college in Texas, so to move to Atlanta was a pretty significant move.
I started working at North Point Community Church. I did student ministry for about five years, and then I have been a campus pastor for the last eight years. And the last four of those, I've been at North Point Community Church, which is our original campus.
We have five kids. We've got a nine, seven, five, three, and a one-year-old, and we are having a great time. A lot of activity, but a lot of good, a lot of exciting things. That's my life. [00:04:34] 
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible backstory. Now moving on to your book, Mark and I have both read this. Great job, by the way. 
Clay Scroggins: Thank you. 
Laura Dugger: Who would you say is your target audience? And what is one main thing that you want them to walk away with after completing your book? 
Clay Scroggins: I never set out to write a book, definitely did not set out to write a leadership book. But Andy's got this, Andy Stanley, my boss, actually my boss's boss, he's got a bunch of things that he says often. But one of the things that I feel like has really shaped our organization, our church, is that we are not responsible to fill up the cups of other people, we're just responsible to empty our own.
That's the way we try to lead, and it's the way we try to live, and it's the way we try to operate as a church. So this book was really just an opportunity for me to empty my cup and here's everything I know about my professional journey. [00:05:37] 
Honestly, I wrote it for people like myself. I wrote it for people who were in a church context who were trying to get their senior pastor to do church the way they thought it needed to be done. Throughout the process, I started realizing that church people, pastoral people, are not the only kinds of people that feel this tension of authority deprivation, but it's really.. I mean, it's rampant in every organization. 
So it's been an interesting process because I think writing it for a church audience, I thought that's who would be the audience. But as it turns out, most of the speaking stuff that I've done as a result of the book has been to business leaders, non-profit organizations, for-profit organizations. And that's been a whole lot of fun.
To answer your question, what do I want for people? My hope would be that if somebody could read this book or digest some of the content, it would allow someone to be able to get to the point where they really could believe that influence is what leadership really is, and it would equip them enough to where they would feel like they could be dropped into any organization at any level at any point in time and make a difference, move an idea forward, or make a change, or create positive impact. That's what I hope for people. [00:06:54] 
Mark Dugger: And I love that your book is written in Clay Scroggins, meaning that it's in your language. I can definitely hear you speaking it as it's written. 
Clay Scroggins: Oh, well, thank you. Honestly, I think I wrote about two or three chapters. I have my boss to credit for that because I sent him a couple of the chapters and he came by my office a couple days later and he's like, "Hey, I read the chapters you sent me. It's good, it's good. You need to be you. You need to just be yourself." And I was like, "Huh." 
I mean, I don't have a problem being myself, but I think originally I just thought, Oh, I need to sound like a leadership person. And I'm not really a leader. I mean, I enjoy having a good time and enjoy laughing and I'm not super serious most of the time. I thanked him in the little acknowledgement section up front because I feel like it was so significant for me to get to the point where I could go, "Okay, I've got to be me. I can't write like I think a leadership book is supposed to be."[00:07:52] 
Now the book, I've had numerous people who've said, hey, I was at a pilot truck stop or a Flying J truck stop and I saw your book. I think initially that kind of made me cringe because no one ever dreams about being in a truck stop. But I really fancy it as helpful leadership content for the average person. That's what it is. 
Mark Dugger: That's awesome. I've started recommending this as a resource to my team at our Chick-fil-A restaurant. How large is your organization to give some context at North Point? 
Clay Scroggins: So we're in Atlanta, we have six churches in the Atlanta area, and we have about 600 employees all in. At the campus that I lead, we have about 110 employees. On any given Sunday, we'll have 10 or 11,000 people at the location that I'm at. In total, we'll have, I don't know, maybe like 30, 32,000 at all of our campuses on a Sunday. So it is a large... You know, from a business side, I would say it's mid-sized business. But it's definitely a large church in the church world. [00:09:02] 
Mark Dugger: Wow. So in that large of an organization, when you're talking about this idea of leveraging influence when you lack authority, how do you incorporate that into your organization's culture? 
Clay Scroggins: Well, I can't take credit for implementing this as an organization. I would say this began by me personally going, Okay, I don't know that I can make other people do this, but I know for me, in order for me to be able to have influence... I mean, it started as a selfish thing. If I'm going to get people to listen to what I think we ought to do, then I've got to learn to cultivate influence with them because I don't have authority over them. 
I would say it began more of a personal journey or voyage for myself. And then I think over time, what happens is people start to see, okay, well, he's not in charge of everything, but he shifted the plans for next Sunday or even the plans for next year or the agenda for, you know, how we're going to operate. And so maybe I can as well. 
I think what I've learned is that modeling it, I mean, that's the most effective way to change a culture anyway. And it's really the only place to begin is to say, hey, well, I can't change everything, but what I can change, what I'm most in charge of is myself. So I think it begins with me. It begins with you. It begins with each of us as individuals. [00:10:19] 
I don't remember what chapter it is now. Maybe one of the first chapters, I call it the Oasis of Excellence, that every one of us has to figure out what am I most in charge of? Just because you're not in charge doesn't mean you can't take charge. And every one of us is in charge of something. And what every one of us is definitely in charge of is me, is ourself, is my own agency as a person. You got to start there by modeling. 
Then secondly, you know, celebrating it in other people is another important way to help others see that this is of value. At every staff meeting we have, I try to bring up an example of someone who changed something that they weren't in charge of. Because to me, that's the greatest way that you know the culture is being affected by influence and not authority is when you see people who do not have authority over an area, but they're making changes in that area or they're influencing change in that area. 
I try to bring that up and celebrate it and say, hey, Here's another example of somebody who's doing something. I mean, here's a simple example, but we didn't take Martin Luther King the day in January that we celebrate Dr. King's life. We didn't do anything to honor him last year. [00:11:34] 
The more we started thinking about diversity and who we're trying to be and how we can serve every kind of person that's in the Alpharetta area, we had a person on our team that brought it up and said, Hey, let's do something in 2019 to celebrate Dr. King's birthday. And they brought some solutions. "Here's some options." 
They just sent out the calendar last week for 2019, what are the days that we're going to be working and the days when we have off and MLK day was on there as a day we're taking off. So I celebrated that person saying, Hey, look, that is a great example of someone who was not in charge of it, but they leveraged influence in such an appropriate and terrific way that they made something happen, which is great. 
Laura Dugger: That kind of makes me think of another question. Because now that your book has been out for over a year, what other stories have you collected from people who have read your book and applied these concepts? [00:12:32] 
Clay Scroggins: You know, the most common feedback I get, and a lot of times people are emotional about this, is, Hey, I work for a difficult boss, and this book has really helped me see my job differently. Because I think, you know, most of our tendencies is when it gets difficult, we find the escape route. Sometimes that's not the best... sometimes that is the best option and sometimes we need to leave. 
But I think the most common story I get is just people who said, hey, I don't really like my boss and it's been really hard and I read this book and it was just really challenging and it gave me inspiration to really figure out how to lead up better. 
Then my favorite story of someone else doing this is actually the Chick-fil-A example that I put in the book about Shane Todd leveraging influence to be able to get the milkshake started, the Chick-fil-A milkshake, which I praise God for on a regular basis. [00:13:37] I mean, honestly, that's my favorite story, but that's not... I put that in the book. 
Laura Dugger: Well, and if somebody hasn't read the book yet, do you mind just sharing that story? 
Clay Scroggins: Yeah, for sure. Mark, I would love your opinion on the story as someone who is an operator. That story was so impactful to me because... so we're a multi-site church, and we have a central organization. So functionally, we operate very similar to probably the way you feel as an operator at Chick-fil-A. 
There are certain things that I can do as a campus pastor, and there are certain things that I just can't do. Now, Andy Stanley, the way he leads, he's a very empowering boss. So if he heard me say there are things that I can't do, that would really frustrate him. And he would say, "What? Tell me something you cannot do." Because he really wants to have a culture where if you think there's something that you should do that would be the best way to operate or to lead, that's what you need to do. [00:14:33] 
Ideally, that is true, but obviously, we're working in an organization where there's multiple locations, there are things naturally that I can't do. An example would be, you know, if I wanted to have a service next week that was an hour and 15 minutes, that would create a big problem for us because we've decided together as a group that we're going to have services that are 60 to 65 minutes long. 
Now, there's a reason why. One of the reasons is because we want volunteers to have a great experience. And when volunteers serve longer than 65 minutes, we've just found that it just changes the dynamic of a volunteer. I would imagine in the Chick-fil-A world, there are things you can do and things you can't do. 
When I first heard about this Shane Todd example, I asked Shane, I said, "Shane, so you helped get the milkshake started. Tell me more about that." And he said, "Well, first of all," and I love what he started with, he said, "This was not a pizza. This was not a hamburger. He said, honestly, if it were a chicken wing, I would have said no, but milkshake is so close to the ice cream that we already had. It was really on brand, I guess you could say. That was really helpful." [00:15:39] 
Then he tells the story about how loads of people would come and say, "Hey, we want a milkshake, want a milkshake. When are you going to have a milkshake?" It would have been real easy for him to blame the central organization and say, "Well, our menu strategy team is, you know, they're so frustrating because they don't get us the products that people really want. We've brought it up to them, and they've said no, and we're so mad, so sorry, we don't have a milkshake, but it's their fault."
But he didn't do that. He said, "Okay, well, enough people have asked for it." And he had built enough trust within the organization that he decided, I'm going to start giving it a try. So he started making milkshakes at his store that were, in a way, unsanctioned, I guess. He even said this was before social media was really huge. So he said even now would be so much more difficult because he tried to keep it quiet because he knew if he broadcast and told everybody about it, they would eventually go... Basically what happens other stores starts to go, "Well, if Shane can do a milkshake, why can't I do it?" [00:16:32] And the next thing you know Chick-fil-A's got a hundred different milkshakes happening in hundred different stores. And that's not a good thing. 
So he basically created a product that was good enough... And he was even humble enough to say, "Hey, the product that we have now is so much better than what we were serving initially but we found a way to do a milkshake in a pretty expedient way." He knew that the worry or the concern that people were going to have was the speed of it. Could you serve milkshakes and not back up the drive-through? I thought that was really important that he was aware of that. 
Then he had this duel where Tim Tassopoulos, who's now I guess the president of Chick-fil-A, at the time was the VP of menu strategy, came by his store and he said, "Let's see how fast these things really are." So he told Tim, "Why don't you make two Diet Cokes and I'm going to make a milkshake and we'll see who can finish faster." 
When I asked Shane, I said, "Shane, why did you do Diet Cokes? What's up with that?" He said, "Because it creates the most fizz." And I thought, "Oh, dirty dog. That was awesome." Sure enough, he made the milkshake quicker than Tim made his two Diet Cokes, and the rest as they say is history. [00:17:39] 
But I thought it was just a good example of not blaming, not being a victim, not being rogue, and being completely belligerently insubordinate. But it was a great way of using what he could do to create something new under authority. Mark, what's your opinion of that situation that Shane had? 
Mark Dugger: I think your take is a great one. It's very difficult in an organization where you have over 1,500 entrepreneurs who want to drive results and have different ideas on how things might be done in the best way. And so, you've kind of been given a framework, but everyone has the same values, understands the culture, and understands the end goal. So it ends up resulting in, you know, examples like this, the milkshake. Actually, the creation of Chick-fil-A sauce is the same idea or very similar story to that. 
Clay Scroggins: That happened at a store. 
Mark Dugger: It did. 
Clay Scroggins: Wow. That's the best sauce. 
Mark Dugger: The rest of the world is blessed. 
Clay Scroggins: That's right. [00:18:39] Another example would be the father-daughter, the date night. I think it happened at a store first as well, right? 
Mark Dugger: Definitely. There's a lot of ideas like that, especially with different events that have happened across the board. 
Laura Dugger: And there's a Chick-fil-A saying we say, it's better to restrain Mustangs than kick mules. 
Mark Dugger: That's what Truett always said. He just always wanted to recruit those Mustangs and just keep them going, but, you know, might need some restraint along the way.
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Mark Dugger: One of the examples I love in your book, Clay, you talk about before you took on this role, how you did some 360 review feedback, and you found out from some others how you could do things differently before you took on this big leadership role and this big jump. Why is this so important within your organization's culture at North Point to promote self-awareness, to learn more about yourself? 
Clay Scroggins: This book revolves around four behaviors that I've been trying to implement in my own life. The first one is to lead yourself well, that most of us get real frustrated at what my boss is not doing or what my boss is doing too much of. And we blame the boss. [00:20:43] "Oh, if only the boss would pay more attention to me, then I could really lead." 
The truth is, you can be well-led even with a bad boss. You can lead yourself really well. Part of leading yourself well is taking up that responsibility to get as much feedback about yourself as possible, because there's information orbiting around your world that could help you. There are things that if you knew it about yourself, it would make you a better spouse, it would make you a better parent, it would make you a better friend, it would make you a better employee and it would make you a better leader. 
But too often we associate that feedback with our identity or we connect it too closely to ourselves basically. We attach ourself to it and so any feedback just naturally we receive it as rejection. I would say the better we can disassociate ourselves from feedback the more willing we are to go seek feedback.
So for me an example of that. In our world, we do a lot of three sixty evaluations, 360 meeting. Your boss, your peers and then people that in a sense would work for you. So whether that's direct reports or even... In our world pretty much everyone has volunteers that work for them to some capacity and so it would be getting feedback from all of those people. To go, "Hey how are you leading the people that you do have authority over? How are you leading your peers and how are you leading your boss? [00:22:07] 
There are tools that you can use for 360s that are very expensive. The ones that I found to be the most beneficial are ones that you can really just choose to do on your own. So about four years ago, I was changing jobs. I was in the middle of a move. I was going from one of our campuses, Browns Bridge Church, to the job I'm in now, North Point. And I had read a book by Michael Watkins called First 90 Days. It's really a book on job transitions, which, if you're not in a job transition, doesn't sound like a very helpful book. But if you're in a job transition, it's about the most helpful book imaginable, because it's so specific to what you're going through. 
One of the things he says to do is he says, hey, leverage this opportunity to get a lot of feedback from where you're coming from, because people are just more likely to give you feedback when you're leaving than they would when you're there. I think that's just natural. You know, you're on your way out, so now they're gonna unload everything they always wanted to say perhaps.
So I had a friend of mine facilitate it for me. [00:23:08] This person sent out the email on my behalf, said, "Hey Clay's asked me to help him with this review that he's doing, would you answer these three questions?" Number one, what does he do that inspires you? What does he do that bothers you? And what does he not know about himself?" Which is another way of asking, what are his blind spots? 
The feedback I got was just tremendously helpful. There was a lot of positive feedback. We tend to diminish or forget the positive feedback. But the themes that I took from it were so helpful because it helped me see, here's where I need to grow. I mean, for instance, people said, Hey, when you're in meetings or even meetings that you're supposed to be leading, we've noticed that sometimes you're not prepared. I know I'm not prepared for the meeting. I just was hoping that my personality or my ability to think on my feet would be able to overcome that. And they basically were saying, it's not overcoming that — you're still unprepared. 
So that was really good because it was just such an obvious challenge to go, Hey, I need to adjust my schedule. I need to change my life to be able to make room to be able to prepare for what's coming or what's going to be happening in the day. [00:24:15] 
That was just one example of a change that I would not have been able to make if I didn't have the knowledge, if I didn't have the data. And the information, the feedback, it just made it painfully obvious, hey, this is a change that if you want to get better, this is a change that needs to be made in your life. 
The same thing is true for every person listening. There are things in your life that you would be better for knowing it, and it would really help you to know exactly how to lead yourself. 
Laura Dugger: What would you say to the listener that's thinking about this question, but they might be pushing back, saying, well, self-awareness kind of sounds selfish? 
Clay Scroggins: Yeah, I can understand that. There's certainly a difference between focusing on yourself, and then I would call it self-care. All of us need to do the things that are habits that we have to care about ourselves. Obviously, there's a danger because we could become too focused on ourselves that all we think about is ourselves. So allowing the vision that Jesus really put in front of us to be what drives us, which is to love God above everything else, to love others as much as we love ourselves. 
That's an important distinction about this. That anything I do to make me better, anything God allows to happen in my life to make me better, the reason he's allowing it is so that I can ultimately help someone else. Isn't that the corporate mission of Chick-fil-A? To glorify God by serving other people, something like that, isn't it? [00:25:33] 
Laura Dugger: I love your knowledge on Chick-fil-A. It's awesome. 
Mark Dugger: The corporate purpose is to glorify God by being a faithful steward of all that's been entrusted to us and have a positive influence on all who come in contact with Chick-fil-A. 
Clay Scroggins: I love that. 
Mark Dugger: So yeah, you're right there, Clay. That's awesome. 
Clay Scroggins: Well, I love that it's not just to make me better. It's not just for me to get more out of life, but it really is to have that positive impact on other people. Ultimately, that's what Feedback has got to do. That it's got to have a purpose in the end and the purpose is ultimately to lift up everybody else around you.
I've heard a leadership guru say often that Everyone wins when the leader gets better. And that's just true. That everyone feels the benefit of improvement that happens in your own life. So yes, I think there's always a temptation to make it about yourself and to make it a way to fixate on yourself. But at the same time, if we don't, if we ignore it, we're missing huge opportunities to get better as a leader so that we can help others. [00:26:32] 
Mark Dugger: There's so many practical tips in the book. One of them that especially stood out to me was this idea of champion publicly and challenge privately. Do you mind kind of elaborating on that and talk about how that comes out in the organization? 
Clay Scroggins: Probably the best thing that happened through this whole process for me was the simple question of what am I doing that's cultivating influence and what am I doing that's costing me influence. And if anybody listening to this gets nothing else out of this, if you ask that simple question and do the work to answer it honestly, it will help you. 
There are things you're doing that those behaviors are cultivating influence for you. They're causing people to trust you more and to want to listen to you more. And then on the flip side, there are things that you're doing that you might not even realize that have a cost to them, they're withdrawing influence. 
The book was really meant to go, okay, well, what are those things? And the challenge is so many of those things are personal. You know, there are things that Mark that you do to cultivate influence or Laura that you do to cultivate influence that they're things that I just... they wouldn't be as instinctual for me because of my temperament and my wiring. And then on the flip side, they're things that I do that other people don't do. [00:27:42] 
Obviously, I can't list them all and they're also unique to each person, but I tried to give some, hey, here are some general things that you've got to remember, particularly when you're not in charge, particularly when you're thinking about: how do I cultivate influence with my boss? 
I've just learned that anytime you challenge someone, which if you want to change anything, you have to challenge someone. So, you know, you can't resist challenge. You can't avoid challenge, but you've got to learn how to do it the right way. 
I know with my boss, I've just found that doing that in a meeting in front of other people... and it's dependent on the size of the meeting. If it's just the six campus pastors and our immediate boss, we've got a pretty trusting relationship where we can have open and honest debate. But if the meeting gets beyond that, if it gets bigger than that, anything I do to challenge my boss in that meeting feels like... I always use the term "it's like you're pantsing your boss. It's like you're pulling your boss's pants down in front of everyone, which that's just not going to cultivate influence. [00:28:47] That's obviously going to cost you.
So really learning how to champion what your boss is trying to do in front of other people and then using that relationship with your boss as the place to approach your boss with those more challenging things. 
Mark Dugger: I love how practical that is. Another thing that we have to ask about, just because I know you get to work really closely with Andy Stanley, could you just share maybe two or three things that you've learned from your experience and working alongside him? 
Clay Scroggins: Sure. I mean, it is one of the greatest privileges for me. I mean, he is a world-class leader and there's so much to be learned from him. He's a real person in every sense of the word. He really believes what he preaches and he's the real deal. He's a pretty easy person to follow. 
Most of the feedback I get from the book or most of people's objections are, well, Andy Stanley sounds like a great boss. I wish you could meet my boss because he's not near as great or she's not near as great. [00:29:47] But the point of this book was not, "Hey, here's how great it is to work for Andy Stanley." It's really, you can apply these principles with a great boss or with a bad boss. Either way, it's going to help you. And not applying the principles under a bad boss or a great boss, on the flip side, that's not going to help you either. 
So a couple of things I've learned from Andy. Number one, he listens really, really well. He listens really deeply into the organization. He has a couple of different things that he does as a system for this. Number one, he has a leadership team, and not everyone reports to him. I would say less than half of the meeting reports to him. But he meets with this team on a weekly basis to be able to really hear what's going on inside the organization. 
Secondly, he does these 90-day or year reviews. Basically, if you've been in your role for 90 days, he's just got a pretty simple system in place where you get an email sent to you saying, "Hey, here's about five questions that I want to know about. Have you seen anything that's odd? Is there anything that you don't have that you need to do your job well? Is there anything that's not aligned or out of place that you've seen?" And it's basically a way to say, hey, you're brand new, you have the freshest eyes, and so tell me what you see. 
And he really takes those seriously. He definitely reads them and definitely responds to them when people have difficult or challenging or even easy ways to make the organization better. He's a very admirable listener in that way. [00:31:14] 
Then, I mean, the other thing that comes to mind immediately is he is great at absorbing things. I feel like it's so easy for a leader to deflect or object or be defensive. He really allows contentious debate, which for someone like me is so attractive because I don't know, I was always one of those kids that I didn't have to be right, but I wanted to be heard. Any teacher that I had that allowed us to have real honest feedback and conversation about the way we felt about the way the class operated or about the topics we were talking about, those are the teachers I was always drawn to. 
Andy's just that way. He just really, he appreciates people that disagree with him. And it doesn't mean he's going to do anything about it, but he absorbs that disagreement really well. He allows it to happen. He allows people to be critical. 
I've never started an organization, but I can imagine how personal it would feel if someone were critical of the organization that you started. He just has a great way of being open to people's feedback. Again, it doesn't mean he's going to do anything about it, but being defensive shuts not only that conversation down, but it lets everyone around know that that person's not open. [00:32:34] 
So his ability to just absorb the feedback and either internalize it or to dismiss it, if it's impossible, I just think is terrific. So those are just a couple of things. But honestly, it's a very common question that I get a lot, which I really love it because I count it as a privilege. 
Laura Dugger: Well, that's really helpful feedback. Where can listeners start today after hearing all of these great ideas? 
Clay Scroggins: I mean, I think the place that I would start is to begin with the question of what am I learning right now? That's not necessarily on subject with this book, but it's really the way this whole process began for me is somebody asked me... it was actually a... there's another great church called Passion City Church. And the pastor of Passion City Church is a guy named Louie Giglio. 
I don't know Louie super well, but he's been definitely a mentor for me in a very indirect way. I've just listened to him for 20 years now. And Louie asked me about four years ago, Hey, I want you to come and share at our staff meeting about what you're learning right now. I don't know that I would have sat down to answer that question if he had not asked that but since he asked me that, I've used that question at least on a yearly basis and usually more often than that, just as a way to process what's going on in my life. [00:33:49] 
You know, very rarely do we stop to evaluate what is God trying to teach me. What is He doing? I think a more common question that we ask is why is this happening? Why is this happening to me? Or when is it going to stop? And a better question is, what should I be learning right now? 
So I would start there. I would just start with the question of what am I learning right now? What is God trying to teach me in the middle of what I'm going through right now in life? And it might be great. It might be He's trying to teach me that He loves me and He says every good gift comes from Him. Or He's trying to teach me that sometimes life is hard and depending on Him and leaning on Him is the best thing I could do right now in this season. But whatever it is, I think being open to that, being open to learning whatever it is that God would want for you to learn, is way better than trying to figure out why is this happening. 
Mark Dugger: So if anyone wants to take some next steps and go a little bit deeper, where can they find you, Clay? 
Clay Scroggins: Well, I am on social media, on Twitter and Instagram @ClayScroggins. I've got a website that has a link to put in your email address that I send out maybe once a month or so. Here's what's happening in our world, and it's a great way to stay in touch. I live in South Forsyth with my family, so I'm usually at the Chick-fil-A near us. If you want to find me there, you can find me there. [00:35:09] 
Laura Dugger: That's amazing. Well, we'll link to all of those social media sites in our show notes. As you know, we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. We would love to hear some of your best practices so we can implement our own savvy ways. Now, as our final question today, Clay, what is your savvy sauce? 
Clay Scroggins: I love that question, and I love the title of your podcast. But I think the answer I'm going to give, it does not feel very savvy, but it is the most practical thing that I have implemented in my life that has helped me, that has created the most impact, I would say, or at least the most change. Some of it I didn't choose. 
But I would say waking up earlier is probably the most helpful, challenging habit in my life. Obviously, y'all have kids and you know how it is with little kids that you just learn life just gets earlier and earlier. That's just the kind of the natural order of life. If it weren't for our kids, we probably would naturally sleep till seven or eight. But since we have kids, for me, I've just learned that the only way I can get done what I need to get done, and really the only way I can have time and space to think about how I can make other people's lives better today, or even thinking about the question we just talked about, God, what are you trying to teach me right now, the only time I can really spend time talking to my father in a real intentional way is to wake up earlier. [00:36:41] 
I wake up usually in the fours on most days which feels bizarrely early. Especially Mark the last time you and I hang out we were college students and no one woke up at 4. I think it was way more common to stay up until 4 in those days. I made that change in my life probably about three and a half years ago. 
Charles Duhigg, another author, talks about keystone habits. There are certain habits that you have in life that kind of like pins at a bowling alley. When you knock one of them down, when you institute one, when you implement one in your life, it leads to all this other progressive change. And I would say that one was one that there were so many other benefits to it that I didn't even recognize or realize. But it really made me a better dad, it made me better at work. It created just better general self-discipline that filtered its way into other areas of my life. As simple as that is, that is my savvy sauce. 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible and a great way to end today. Clay, thank you so much for your time. It was really fun to get to hang out with you. 
Clay Scroggins: Thank you, too. 
Mark Dugger: Appreciate the time and keep doing what you're doing. Go Jackets. 
Clay Scroggins: Y'all are awesome. All right. Hope to see y'all soon. [00:37:52] 
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone, we want one of you to be the winner of Clay's book, How to Lead When You're Not in Charge. So if you go over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, you can click on our "giveaways tab" and find further instructions for how to enter. Thanks for participating. 
Mark Dugger: It was really fun to host with you today. I think since we are together, it's a great time to share some news that we have on behalf of our little family. 
Clay Scroggins: Yes. We are excited to let you all know that we are expecting baby number four. 
Mark Dugger: Coming to a hospital in central Illinois soon. 
Laura Dugger: So just wanted to share the news with you all. 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:38:52] 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:07] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:41:21] 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

30 Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains some adult themes and is not intended for little ears. 
 
30. Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Philippians‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭(NLT‬‬) “Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.”
 
Emma Schmidt, MA is a professional counselor, certified sex therapist, and certified clinical sexual addiction specialist licensed in the State of Ohio. She is a graduate of Cincinnati Christian University’s Master of Arts in Counseling program. Emma received her sex therapy education at the Institute for Sexual Wholeness at Richmont Graduate University in Atlanta, Georgia. Emma is certified through both The American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT) and The American Board of Christian Sex Therapists (ABCST).
 
She has specialized training in treating sexual addiction, trauma-focused cognitive behavioral therapy, sex therapy, victims’ advocacy, crisis intervention and advanced training in emotion-focused therapy for couples. She earned her Bachelor of Science in Psychology and Biblical Studies from Cincinnati Christian University. Emma has two years of doctoral training from Union Institute and University’s PsyD Clinical Psychology program. She currently owns a group practice, Emma Schmidt & Associates, Sex + Relationship Therapy, in Cincinnati, Ohio.
 
Emma’s Website 
 
Connect with Emma on facebook: Emma Schmidt & Assoc., Sex + Relationship Therapy
 
Instagram: @emmaschmidtandassociates
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you. Check them out today at Midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship. 
If you're interested in sponsoring The Savvy Sauce, we would love to hear from you. Make sure you reach out to us. You can email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. 
It's my privilege to introduce you to Emma Schmidt. Emma is a certified sex therapist and her private practice is in Cincinnati, Ohio. Today we're going to discuss five topics. They include pain, pornography, erectile dysfunction, anxiety, and emotional distance. Here's our chat. 
Hey, Emma. 
Emma Schmidt: Hi. 
Laura Dugger: I'm looking so forward to getting to ask you more questions about your expertise. But first, will you just share a little bit about yourself, including how you decided to become a sex therapist? [00:01:53] 
Emma Schmidt: Yeah. So I've been in private practice for about eight years now. I'm out in the Cincinnati, Ohio area. I have two little girls, a one-year-old and a three-year-old and I've been married for 11 years now. So whenever I was first married, so I got married when I was 20, and one of the pieces that really resonated with us is that we were virgins whenever we got married and we didn't know that we might experience some kind of sexual pain and or some kind of sexual dysfunction. 
We thought that sex would just be kind of what everybody had told us from movies or books, and so we were really excited about it. Then that started a very long years of journey trying to figure out why we could not have successful intercourse. 
I was in my undergrad for psychology at that point, and I tried to look for different resources and therapists. There were so many great family relationship couples therapists out there, but no one who really knew how to address that core piece of sexual dysfunctions or sexual-related topics. [00:03:07] 
Though there were many who tried and I really appreciated that and so we kept getting tossed around from therapist to therapist. That's when I decided, you know, I want to be able to grow this field. I felt really comfortable talking about this area.
Even from whenever I was younger, I really enjoyed human sexuality. That was my focus in my psychology undergrad. So whenever I went to my counseling and master's degree, I just heavily focused my trajectory on sex therapy. So I was doing my master's in counseling in Cincinnati and then I would drive down to Atlanta on the weekends to do sex therapy certification, the sex therapy certification program. 
That was about eight years ago whenever I did that. I was an individual practitioner. Then in the last, it's been almost two years now, I started the group practice of other clinicians who were interested in sex therapy, wanted to figure out how to become sex therapists and relationship therapists.
Since then, most of our clinicians are either certified as a sex therapist or are in a program for becoming certified as a sex therapist, which is pretty cool because there aren't many in our area. The idea is that we grow as a population to be able to help more people in our community on a number of different levels. [00:04:33] So that's where we're at right now and a little bit of my story. 
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that part of your story. Have you been someone who has experienced healing through the sexual part of your life? 
Emma Schmidt: Yes. I experienced vaginismus kind of off and on, but definitely for the first three years of our relationship. Then we sought out pelvic floor physical therapy, sex medicine doctors. And we had a lot of success with that and then it came back postpartum. So we had to kind of dive into that. But what was really cool is that we had to learn how to be intimate versus just having physical sex. And that was a pretty amazing experience to understand what intimacy looks like versus what does the performance-based sex looks like. 
So we have experienced healing through that sexual part, even though it kind of ebbs and flows still. But the intimacy piece, I think, has been pretty close to us, even if that goes off a little bit. 
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. Just to clarify, or if somebody is in your same position, how can they grow in intimacy or what does that look like? [00:05:49] 
Emma Schmidt: We had to figure out because we weren't sexually illiterate. We had to slow everything down and explore and figure out what do I like, what do you like, how can we have more conversation? So we could get pretty frustrated by intercourse not working, let's say so we developed a plan where we sit down... Well, we don't sit down anymore, but we did. 
We communicate about sex pretty frequently. Even today as a sex therapist We talk about our sex life almost every other day at least or at least once a week where we just dive into what was good, what are you meeting, what am I meeting, how can we be vulnerable and kind of show up verbally naked. That took a lot of hard work and trying to figure out what language we needed. 
That in itself helps us become closer because we are having to be so vulnerable with "Actually I know that you like that but this is how it makes me feel" or "Do you actually like doing that because I don't like it when you do that?" And so are we just doing something that neither of us actually enjoy.
So there was a lot of conversation about it, which was really helpful, and then a lot of exploring and experimenting which was good to figure out what's gonna work and what's not, and then readdressing that maybe months or years later to figure out, is that something we want to try again or not or let's talk about this because our bodies are changing during different seasons of life or our personalities are changing. [00:07:22] 
There's some things that or some discussions that we had early on that didn't really work for us but now work for us post-kids. So having that ongoing conversation, being able to... I think this is cheesy, but it makes sense, saying like, into-me-see, so allowing someone to really see into you and then you diving into that person as well. So being really transparent and vulnerable. 
That's what intimacy is about. If I just go in to have physical active sex, there might not be any intimacy there. But what we were trying to create is how can we show up for each other and allow for a deeper connection than sexually when we were able to express our needs and desires and refocus on the purpose of what we wanted sex to look like. 
Laura Dugger: I love that explanation. That does broaden your perspective and really intimacy is so rich. So I love that you've shared that. From your expertise, how do you think that sex therapy can benefit a couple, singles, parents, kids, and even families? 
Emma Schmidt: I mean I've gotten a lot of interesting comments about what people think sex therapy is. The way that I like to think about it is sex therapy can help on a broad level any kind of sexual difficulty that one might be having. [00:08:45] So for a couple, let's say, a typical couple might have desire discrepancy. So one person has more desire for sex than the other person or it's been a while since you've had sex now just feels awkward how to start that again.
There might be some infidelity or some addictions that might be happening within the relationship or even just confused about what to do with your body. It feels like going into a sexual situation when you haven't had it before seems like it would be normal, but how do you move your body? This feels awkward. So even diving into some of those pieces with couples is really important. Or the rectal dysfunction or vaginal pain, infertility. There's so many different aspects to sex therapy that can benefit a couple. So that's the couple piece. 
For an individual, I think exploring one's sexuality, exploring how to get to know your body and you being a sexual self. So I see a lot of clients who come in who have shame around sex because of cultural messages or religious messages or familial messages. So trying to address some of those shame pieces. [00:09:59] 
Or even I'll have some women who come in who want to explore how to have an orgasm and what does that even feel like. Or guys who are coming in and saying, I'm 20 and I have I'm not able to sustain an erection, like this doesn't feel normal, or I have premature ejaculation or I'm just trying to figure out how to date and I feel awkward in this new world where it seems like you're supposed to go on 50 dates all the time and am I monogamous am I not monogamous. 
So we explore relationships, we explore how to become more in tune with one's sexual self and really try and decrease some of those shame messages. But we do a lot of exploration around what does that look like. 
Then for parents, This gets really tough because you're used to maybe a certain way of behaving sexually, and then you have kids and it completely rocks the boat maybe. Maybe your body and the way that you experience sex feel so much better postpartum. And then maybe sometimes there's a lot of stuff that's going on.
So I'll see women who experience sexual pain maybe because of the scars, scar tissue that they might have because of tearing or the vaginal canal can just really change, your body shifts or if you have a C-section, sometimes you go numb. Some of the nerve endings can be damaged from a C-section. [00:11:19] 
So that can be really disheartening when you have had this, you've created such a miracle of life and now you're trying to figure out, well, how do we behave sexually again? Not only that, but you might be functioning on waking up every two hours and you have absolutely no desire. So you feel like you've gotten into the cycle of maybe fighting a lot or you have no energy or the male partner feels like, I want to be there for my partner but I don't know how to. So it's a lot of treading water or walking on eggshells between the partners and then all of a sudden what we see is we haven't had sex in so many months or so many years and we don't know what to do. 
So trying to figure out, how do we even schedule sex or make it scheduled spontaneity is a fun exercise that I like to try and create with couples who are parents and the busyness of life, especially with all the sports that are going on and all the activities. How do we make sure that we're creating space for us as a couple when we also have a family going on that we love and we cherish. So what does that look like? [00:12:28] 
So that's just a little bit of parents, individuals, couples that we might see with sex therapy but there's so many other pieces and components to it that might be brought into the office as well. 
Laura Dugger: It sounds like everyone can benefit from sex therapy in a different way because it affects all of us. Even on your website, it says that 4 out of 10 women and 3 out of 10 men experience sexual problems. Yet I love that you follow it up with saying most sexual concerns are treatable. 
So it'd just be awesome to have you educate us on ways that you do treat some of these sexual problems. You had talked about pain during intercourse in the past. So let's start with the woman experiencing pain during intercourse who asks you, why do I feel sexual pain when the doctor says there's nothing wrong? 
Emma Schmidt: This is a common concern that we hear. One thing that my sex medicine doctor that we refer to often taught me is that typically when you go to see your GP or your general practitioner person or your OB, they're usually trained in more general topics around their specialty area. [00:13:47] 
If it's your gynae, they're usually just trained in gynecology. So what's missed is if you want a sex medicine or a sex course, it's usually an elective and you have to then want to take that elective to get this information. 
So what we're seeing is that there might actually be some sexual concerns going on and your doctor might be excellent but they might not know some of these other specialty areas. Just like if you go to your general practitioner for a broken bone they might send you to a person who specializes in broken bones. 
What we do is if somebody comes in and says, "I'm having sexual pain and my doctor says I'm fine," I send them to our sex medicine doctor and I say, "Hey, I just want you to go get evaluated to see what all might be happening." But I also ask some interviewing questions and assessment questions to find out where's the pain and what kind of pain might you be having because there's so many different kinds of general sexual pains called dyspareunia, that it could be endometriosis. It could be atrophy of your vaginal canal. It could be vestibulitis and vaginismus or vulvodynia. 
What I want to find out is where is this pain located and who's going to be the best fit for you in terms of a doctor that could potentially help? Usually, it's a sex medicine doctor. [00:15:05] 
So what I do is I create a team approach so it's usually a sex medicine doctor and then also a pelvic floor therapist depending on the type of pain that a client might be having. So in combination, we create a team approach where the sex medicine doctor, the pelvic floor therapist, and myself are all talking together. And so I work with the cognitive piece.
If vaginismus is going on, what I see a lot of times is the sex medicine doctor and the pelvic floor therapist might have addressed and gotten the client to have no pain anymore but now there's this fear of having intercourse. So we work with the fear of having intercourse and getting over this next hurdle of we know that you have a pain-free pelvic floor area, how can we help you get to a place where you want to enjoy it? We get through some of those negative messages that you can tell yourself about what pain does to the body such as...
A common example is if I go to touch a hot stove, I probably am not going to go touch it again because my brain signals to my body this is hot and you don't want to hurt yourself again. So for someone who experiences pain, that's what their brain is signaling to their body: don't do this, don't have intercourse because it's going to hurt.
Psychologically, we have to work with that and we have to slowly go through that sometimes, and maybe some just general touching around the pelvic floor and creating some safety and that partner is then creating more trust to allow for their partner to then potentially have intercourse later on or some kind of... whatever that pain might be. 
We do some exercises through touch but also some cognitive processing, some mindfulness, self-affirmation types of exercises along with addressing "what are you telling yourself? How can your partner be there for you? What do you need from them?"
So it's a lot of intimate conversation. This is really a scary place if you're experiencing pain. In combination with these doctors, I also do a lot of cognitive processing along with some emotional pieces and being able to ask your partner for what you need in that moment as well.
Laura Dugger: That's so neat that you have it as a team approach. It sounds like it can be complex, but the encouragement is that it's totally worth it for the person who is seeking healing. 
Emma Schmidt: Exactly. Yeah. [00:17:23] I think it can feel really discouraging when you've heard doctors say this isn't... you just need to drink a glass of wine or just relax. It is more complex than that. And your body is obviously telling you that. So I would always encourage you to listen to your body. And if someone's saying, "No, you're fine," but you don't feel fine, keep searching. 
Laura Dugger: That's good wisdom there. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: How do you handle it when a client asks why their partner watches pornography rather than choosing to engage with them? 
Emma Schmidt: I always bring it back to the couple and ask them why that happens. Because I think that can be really discouraging. [00:19:27] Porn is so rampant. What I find — when I do my sexual history assessments with my client — is porn is the number one educator for our generation and for a lot of the clients that we see. 
And so I try and empathize with that person like it must be really discouraging that they're looking at someone else versus you and what that must feel like then for you as a partner and try. And sit with them and what they're experiencing because it can feel kind of traumatic sometimes for some people. 
I try and address, like, what are you experiencing? Why does this feel like a concern to you? And what are you needing for your partner? And how can you address this with your partner? What are you needing from them? Do you feel safe being able to address this with your partner and tell them, like, why this hurts you if it does hurt you? And have the partner respond because they might not know how this experience is for them. 
Then try and create a game plan for what would be helpful for you all and what are those next steps to make you both feel secure and needed in the relationship. And I just need a connection that makes you feel bonded together. 
And if you feel like your partner is watching porn and that feels violating to you, then you're not gonna want to be with your partner typically. Or you might just approve to them like you can see porn too, which isn’t intimate either. [00:20:49] So really trying to get down to that core piece and have them turn towards each other and connect and figure out, like, what works for us and what doesn't work for us in this relationship. 
Laura Dugger: It's so neat to hear how you facilitate these conversations and just bring about understanding because oftentimes the person struggling with pornography has certain lies that they're believing such as this only affects me. But you're saying it really does affect the couple and we bring it into the room and talk about it. Is that right? 
Emma Schmidt: Exactly. Yeah, because for some partners, it's not a problem at all. And so if this person's bringing it up, it must be affecting them in some way. And because the two of them have joined together in it, it's the coupleship that really needs to work on it, not just the individual. 
Laura Dugger: We have a lot of male listeners as well, so let's address a common question that affects them. Do you ever personally work with males who struggle with erectile dysfunction, even when they're young? You had mentioned some people being as young as 20 years old. [00:21:55] 
Emma Schmidt: I do work with males. Many of the male clients I see are ones who struggle with erectile dysfunction, especially younger men who feel very confused because it's stereotypically known to be older men who might experience this because of hormones that might be happening or their different aging experiences that might be going through their body to create some of the erectile dysfunction, blood flow problems. 
I do work with men. And I really enjoy this area, honestly, because a lot of it is anxiety and stigma-related or shame-based messages that might be happening. And if not, I do the same thing. If I feel like whenever I'm doing my assessment that it might be more physical, then I refer to a urologist or a sex medicine doctor for them to get evaluated. And most of the time I do that anyways just to rule out anything else that might be going on. 
Maybe they have some low testosterone that's happening or sometimes it's that the condom is too tight. What I find too is with erectile dysfunction is when it happens once it is just devastating for the rest of the time. So it might not be that it's a recurring problem because of something else. It might be because of that first time and the messages you tell yourself then after that first time and how difficult that was or even the responses that you get. [00:23:18] 
It's usually less likely that it's a physical problem and more likely that it is anxiety-related or messages that you start telling yourself because of that erectile dysfunction that's happening. Because it's so devastating and it affects... When I talk to these men it affects every area of life and you just start ruminating on it. Of course, then that starts to affect the somatic body too. 
Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense because the mind-body integration is just fascinating. And on that topic, how do you see anxiety affecting people's overall sexual health? 
Emma Schmidt: Yes, so anxiety, I believe, is one of the leading contributors of many of the sex therapy challenges that we see in the office. So whether a couple is coming in I'll find that anxiety might be what's creating the disconnect between them talking about their sex life or anxiety might be why they're not having sex because they don't know how to start that sexual experience. Especially with sexual pain or the sexual dysfunctions, sexual dysfunctions is such a negative word so I think that induces some shame too. 
But so for erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation, those are all very much rooted in anxiety, or many times it's rooted in anxiety. So what you were talking about earlier with that mind-body connection being so strong for therapy, I think it's completely correct. [00:24:44] 
The sex medicine doctor that I refer to a lot, she likes to say that your brain is your biggest sex organ and I 100% believe that that is true. Because if I am about to go into a sexual situation and I'm telling myself, oh my gosh, I feel so bloated right now and I don't look the way that I used to look and I start putting myself down, what happens is in the brain, it starts to shut off that desire and shut off that pleasure and so my body starts to get tense. 
But if I feel confident and I feel excited and I feel really connected to my partner, then my body feels more loose and open and feels more desire or excitement for my body to go through a natural sexual response cycle. 
I definitely think that anxiety is rooted in many of these sexual problems. Whether it's the chicken or the egg is I don't know, but I definitely think it follows through with many of the sexual concerns that I see. So a lot of times it's about how can we create space and create peace to shut down some of that anxiety and allow for you to feel more secure in your sexual self and with your partner too. 
Anxiety a lot of times is rooted in fear and so we're trying to address what is that fear that you have that's creating that anxiety and how can we create some peace in that to allow you to move forward more confidently too. [00:26:08] 
Laura Dugger: How have you seen that work with clients? Could you even give a specific example of how they were able to create space with the goal of peace? 
Emma Schmidt: This is a typical client that I might have. They come in and they'll have a sexual problem and I say, okay, how often do you guys talk about this? And they say, "This is the first time." And I say, "Okay, how long have you guys been together?" They might say 20 years. 
So I'll ask, "So in 20 years, you've never talked about your sex life." "No." I'll ask, what pulls you back from talking about it? "Well, it feels awkward" or "I feel embarrassed" or "I feel like he's wanting X, Y, and Z or she's wanting this and I feel like I'm trying to provide these things." So it's a lot of assumptions that are happening and a lot of anxiety that's... I want to make sure I'm pleasing this person or, um, I don't want them to leave me if I'm not this sexually active. So a lot of different things that can happen. But one of the biggest pieces is couples not talking about their sex life. [00:27:06] 
What we do is I have them engage in a sexual conversation and I say, Okay, this might be awkward and uncomfortable, but you're in therapy so we're gonna try and challenge ourself with what feels uncomfortable in a safe place. So I'll have them start engaging in these questions that they have for each other but they just don't know... a lot of clients just don't know how to ask or what questions to ask. Because we weren't modeled that either, right? A lot of us weren't modeled how to do that. 
So once they start talking about it, what I find is that they naturally just start to feel lighter or they even seem lighter whenever they come back into the room. Sometimes after that initial conversation they don't want any more sessions. And that feels really good to think, okay it was just needing to open up that dialogue and that was just through some facilitation or being able to help you figure out what questions you're looking to ask or needing from your partner. 
I think like at the beginning, whenever I was talking about my husband and I coming together and opening up that intimacy through dialogue, I think that happens too with couples just not knowing how to create that space to ask. [00:28:08] 
And that's what I find when couples come back in too, is if they had a rough time, being able to refocus back on, well, did you guys talk about this? And if the answer is no, how can I get you guys to talk about it at home and not wait until you come back in here? And what do you guys need to create that safety or to feel vulnerable or to create safety to feel vulnerable in that area or how do I help you guys think about the questions that you're looking to ask to connect in this way to create peace instead of anxiety? Because it just builds so... 
If I can get clients to engage in more dialogues and figure out what questions they want to ask for connection, then I find that that's what helps really reduce that anxiety piece when they can feel safe with their partner 
Laura Dugger: Now, will you speak to the couple who's seeking your relationship therapy for a different reason? Maybe because they feel more like roommates right now, and yet their desire is to grow in a deeper level of emotional intimacy. [00:29:08] 
Emma Schmidt: Yeah. Clients who feel like roommates, that's another one that feels pretty present in our office space. What I say is when did that start and what has created that roommate feeling? What did it feel like prior to feeling like roommates? Typically it's we got into a routine or things aren't exciting anymore. You've gotten past that honeymoon phase, we'll call it. 
And what happens after, let's say, it's around like six months to eighteen months, is your desires for each other start to level out? When you were dating, typically your libido starts to match each other and so you feel really excited to see the other person, your sex drive is a little bit higher. But when you're together for about six months to a little over a year, it starts to level back out to maybe what feels normal to your body. And that can feel confusing. 
Some couples will say after they get married, I feel like my partner tricked me into getting married and they only had sex with me just to get me on the other side of this. I'll hear that a lot. And I don't think that is always true. I think it's the way that our bodies are functioning to excitement and then leveling back out too.
For the roommate piece what I like to do is how can we keep things exciting within the nature of your relationship so that it doesn't feel so routine, so it doesn't feel like we're roommates while also addressing what also makes us feel like roommates? [00:30:36]  
One of the things that I think can be really beneficial is what I call the jar exercise. What you do is you have two different jars set up and you put what you find most sexually desirable or what you like to experience sexually or intimacy-wise and your partner then puts what they would like in their jar sexual or intimacy-wise. So you write it on a piece of paper and then put it in there and then you just go through a list of those. 
Then what happens is you guys decide how often you would want to pull from the jar during the week. If we decide, if my husband and I, for instance, would decide that we're going to pull twice a week, I say, okay, I'll go first. And I decide what day that I want to pull from his jar, but I only know that. 
So I go and I pull from his jar and I read what he is interested in. Then I decide what day, what time, when I'm going to plan this. So I create a situation for this activity or this sexual situation. [00:31:35] Then I initiate the way that he likes to be initiated, not the way that I like to be initiated. So it's really partner-focused, me turning towards my partner and figuring out what does he like and how can I best love him in this way. 
Then my partner does the same thing for me. It's a way to keep things spontaneous but also scheduled. Because what we find is that if you just wait for spontaneity to happen, which is one of the number one things I hear from clients, I just want it to be spontaneous, it either doesn't happen at all, you either aren't going to engage in sexual interactions or it's going to happen much less frequently than you would like it to happen.
So if you're able to do this, I find that it can be really fun. You start to learn more about your partner and what they like to do. And you're turning towards your partner and figuring out how can I love them best and this is how it is. And so it can typically be really exciting too because I know my partner is going to like this and I'm excited to please them in this way. 
Laura Dugger: Our listeners are some of the kindest people we've met. Your gracious comments through social media, email, and our website fuel us to continue producing more content. Some of you have asked what you can do to support The Savvy Sauce. As you know, we greatly appreciate it when you share episodes with friends. [00:32:44] 
And now, for as little as $2 a month, there is a new way to financially show your support. These contributions, ranging from $2 to $20 per month, will be rewarded with extra podcasts, free downloadable scripture cards, and more. Check out all the details at thesavvysauce.com and click on our Patreon tab to find out how you can be a supporter of the arts. Thanks for participating. 
Where else can listeners learn more about you and follow up if they want to schedule a session, even if they're not local to Cincinnati? 
Emma Schmidt: We have a website. It's Emma-Schmidt.com. That's our website where sometimes we do blogs, sometimes not. Our Facebook feed also goes to our website, so you can check that out on our main page. More resources are available there, such as sex medicine doctors, pelvic floor therapists, other kind of medical professionals in our area. [00:33:42] 
Then we also have our Facebook, Emma Schmidt and Associates, Sex and Relationship Therapy, and our Instagram, which is Emma Schmidt Sex Therapy, where we just post a lot of different resources throughout the weeks that could be really helpful for what we hear clients saying in sessions and then we want to be able to translate that to a broader audience too. 
Laura Dugger: We will link to all of those in our show notes. Thank you just for making yourself accessible. 
Emma Schmidt: You're welcome. This has been fun. 
Laura Dugger: Well, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy means practical knowledge. And as the final question today, Emma, what is your Savvy Sauce? 
Emma Schmidt: So this sounds really morbid but my savvy sauce is realizing that one day we're all gonna die. And so how can I live authentically for myself and for the higher being, can I call higher being, [00:34:41] how can I live authentically and transparently through that and not for others? One day we're all gonna die and so how can I live really genuinely in life?
Laura Dugger: Well, Emma, thank you so much for sharing all of your practical application with everyone who's hearing this message. Your work is making a difference and I appreciate the impact you've had on all of us today. 
Emma Schmidt: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:35:47] 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:36:52] 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:37:53] 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

29 Ideas for Meaningful Holiday Traditions with Mentor, Shawn Mazelin

29. Ideas for Meaningful Holiday Traditions with Mentor, Shawn Mazelin
 
**Transcription Below**
 
1 Thessalonians 5:11 NIV “Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.”
 
Shawn Mazelin is a wife, mother, and grandmother. She loves to host strangers and friends in her home and she is known in her community as a mentor to many. In addition to serving at her church, Shawn also works at Hannah’s House as the Community Outreach Coordinator. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Saint Valentine by Robert Sabuda
Patrick: Patron Saint of Ireland by Tommie dePaola
Resurrection Rolls Recipe
Resurection eggs from Family Life
French Toast Casserole Recipe
 
Bonus Resources/Ideas not mentioned:
*Many of these ideas come from book lists mentioned on Read Aloud Revival: 
Children's Picture Books:
The Story of Ruby Bridges by Robert Colesfor Black History Month
Somebody Loves You, Mr. Hatch by Eileen Spinellifor Valentine’s Day
The Legend of the Easter Egg by Lori Walburgfor Easter
How to Make a Cherry Pie and See the USA by Marjorie Pricemanfor 4th of July
Popcorn by Frank Aschfor Halloween
The Thanksgiving Story for Thanksgiving
Saint Nicholas by Julie Stiegemeyerfor St. Nicholas Day
The Crippled Lamb by Max Lucado
 
For the adults:
Everyday Confetti: Your Year-Round Guide to Celebrating Holidays and Special Occasions by Karen Ehman
 
Bonus Ideas:
Let the family use the stockings all month long: use them as mailboxes and drop letters of love and encouragement throughout the month
 
Gather a group of friends to Christmas Carol at a Nursing Home or at the homes of recent widows/widowers. Consider writing letters to the people you will be singing to or bring them a candy cane with a note of encouragement. 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Inc in EUREKA. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 
When I think about intentional holiday traditions, Shawn Mazelin is the first person who comes to mind. She has been a personal mentor of mine and many others. I've heard her grown children say how much they valued her intentionality and purposeful traditions. I hope you enjoy our chat. 
Hi Shawn. Thanks for coming on The Savvy Sauce. 
Shawn Mazelin: Hi Laura, it's great to be here.
Laura Dugger: For anyone who has not met you yet, can you just share a little bit about yourself? 
Shawn Mazelin: I am in my 30th year of marriage. I have two adult daughters, two son-in-laws, a son that is a senior in high school, and another son that is a freshman in high school. [00:01:30] I work at a local maternity home for the last couple years, and I've been very busy with our church and other projects in the community. 
Laura Dugger: And you have always poured so much into your family. Why was it important for you to make holidays special with your family? 
Shawn Mazelin: You know, I think that it's so important to build memories. Those are more important, I think, than even the gifts that you can purchase. When my kids get together, even now as grown adults, they'll talk about some of the fun memories of growing up together and the things that we did, and the ways that we celebrated. But I never hear them talk about an item that was purchased. It's always about the quality time that we spent. 
Laura Dugger: And for people that didn't know you as you were raising your children, were you a part-time working mom, a full-time working mom, stay-at-home mom? What did that look like?
Shawn Mazelin: You know, at various times in our marriage, I've done all of those things. It depended on how I needed to be the best helpmate to my husband. [00:02:35] We were also missionaries for 17 years of our marriage. And when you do that, you're living on faith support. So sometimes I would need to work a part-time job or a full-time job and sometimes God allowed me to stay at home full-time with my children. 
So it was a different season for each time, but it was something my husband and I came together on and prayed through. So we had to learn how to be organized and to make family a priority because that was always my trump card. I didn't want my children and the things that were important to fall between the cracks because I was working outside the home. 
Laura Dugger: Even in those really busy seasons, how did you carve out time to plan and prepare to make holidays special? 
Shawn Mazelin: Well, I would do a little research before each holiday. I wanted my kids to have a clear understanding of what we were celebrating and why we were celebrating it. I think that's one of the keys to parenting is to give the "why" behind something and so that they understand it and make it their own. [00:03:43] 
There's a lot of cultural ideas around every holiday. But most people don't realize there's a Christian meaning behind all the holidays. And so I wanted to dig to the root of each time and celebrate those moments. 
For example, Christmas, everyone knows, you know, it's the birth of Jesus, but then there's also Santa Claus. Easter, you have the risen Christ, but then there's the Easter bunny. St. Patrick's Day, people talk about shamrocks and green beer, different things like that. And it's really about a man who became a Christian and went back to a country that had enslaved him and He taught the gospel. 
As I go through and I look at those things, then we've talked about what is important. so for Christmas, I didn't always do it. You know, as young moms, you're kind of figuring different things out. But we had certain stories that we would share or movies that we would watch that were about the birth of Christ. And when we gave gifts to each other, it had a meaning to it. We look for places to serve and give to other people besides ourselves. [00:04:52] 
Laura Dugger: Okay, friends, get your notebooks out if you're looking for ideas related to specific holidays or even birthdays. Shawn, let's spend some time and go through the whole calendar year so you can give suggestions. Let's begin with family members' birthdays. What traditions did you do? 
Shawn Mazelin: When they were little, especially, our finances were very tight. So we couldn't afford to always go out for a big fancy dinner. But I would ask each child what their favorite dinner was and make that dinner on their birthday. And we would set the table very ornately. 
So we would pull out our nicest dishes and might have a special Birthday placemats and champagne kind of a glass. I made a birthday plate. It's a glass plate. And you can hand paint it and you bake it. I've had it for the majority of their growing-up years. Now the paint's kind of all scratched off and it's not as pretty as it was when we first started but every time I talk about making a new one the kids all protest because they want me to still use that same plate for them. [00:06:00] 
As we sit around and we eat your favorite meal and we have this really nice dinner, we go around the table and we say something that we value about that birthday person. So we take turns. It's really been amazing to watch my children bless each other and say things that are about their character traits that will build their siblings up. 
Words have a tendency to take a root in your heart. And those things I've just watched bless our family so much to see positive and good things spoken over them. So we do that every year. And it's been amazing because as friends come in, or maybe they'll share their birthday with us, and we go around the table and friends are there. 
We've watched people incorporate that in their families and in their homes. It isn't just about a cake and a present. It's about, hey, let's look at who you are on the inside. We notice who you are, how hard you work, how much you give, how funny you are, all of the good things about the person that God has created that's in our family. [00:07:05] 
Laura Dugger: What about moving on to New Year's Eve and New Year's Day? Did your family do anything special for that? 
Shawn Mazelin: You know, it's just simple. Sometimes we've had game nights and we'll all stay up and you know, I've made little hors d'oeuvres and we'll invite other families in and we'll have maybe a family versus family game night and keep score of whose families beat the other family and just made it a little competitive and had fun with it. 
You know, we watched the ball drop or, you know, different things like that. It's just been more of a free night, but it's a night we've invited people in and just shared bringing in that new year. 
Then as the clock strikes midnight, we usually stop and we pray together. And we bring that new year in with a prayer for the coming year and for the people in our lives and for our country and for our leaders. 
Laura Dugger: And what about anything special you recommend for Valentine's Day? 
Shawn Mazelin: Valentine's Day, I think that's just something that's in between your family. [00:08:04] I love to give all of my kids something sweet and remind them of the sweetness of God. I'll write them cards, or I'll do something for each one of them individually. But words of affirmation are a really big deal for us. So I like to write down things that I love about them, and then write down things that we see how God loves us and remind them that they're loved. 
Especially as you're growing up and you're in school, sometimes you don't feel loved, and the enemy can come in and rob, steal some of the good things that God has done in your life. And so we want to remind our kids that they're loved, maybe when the world is cold and hard. 
Then just my husband and I, we try to make sure that we go on a date because we want our kids to see us dating. We want our kids to know that we love each other. And I think it's healthy for the kids to know that we have family time, but we also have time for mom and dad. 
Laura Dugger: I remember you sharing with a group that you mentored that you used a certain resource. I believe it was just called St. Valentine. [00:09:08] 
Shawn Mazelin: Yes, it's just going back to the root of the history of how Valentine started. Valentine, this man, he was a priest and he was put into prison because he was marrying people at a time when marriage was illegal. The soldiers were supposed to be going off to war, and they thought the men would be distracted if they were married, so they made it illegal to be married. So this priest married people in secret. 
As he was caught and put in prison, he was getting ready to be persecuted and put to death, he wrote a valentine to the jailer's daughter, and he signed it "My Valentine". As I've talked to my kids about this, we just talk about the importance of marriage and what are you willing to do to uphold what God has created and ordained, and how can we love each other? 
You know, it's one of the biggest commandments is to love God and to love others. This holiday encompasses that. So we have a way to share that and say that and talk to others about it. [00:10:15] 
Laura Dugger: I also remember that St. Patrick's Day was always one of your favorite holidays. Can you tell us more about that? 
Shawn Mazelin: Sure. I love that day because it is about a man who was captured into slavery in Ireland and then he escaped and some Bishops found him, and he was taught the gospel, and he accepted Christ as his Savior. He went back to Ireland, and then he shared the gospel with people. And he shared it in a way that it impacted the entire nation.
The clover is a representation of the Trinity. It's what He used to teach about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—three separate things as one. So I love that day because when we eat dinner as a family on that day, we talk about who we need to forgive and how we can forgive, and how we can demonstrate love to others. [00:11:11] 
So it isn't just about, you know, a green shamrock and luck of the Irish. It's about being intentional with the people around us and forgiving and living like Jesus asked us to. 
Laura Dugger: Moving on to what Christians believe is the most important holiday, what did you do to teach your children about Easter? 
Shawn Mazelin: Well, there's some really fun recipes that you can do where you can bake a marshmallow inside of a loaf of bread. And when you put it in and then you bake it and then the marshmallow, it dissolves and the kids can see an empty tomb. I had a little ceramic Tomb with soldiers and Jesus and Mary. 
It kind of I would change the story every day of the week leading up to Easter. So Jesus would be walking into town and the kids, you know, would come through the living room and they would maybe see it on this table. And then the next day you would maybe see the soldiers there or you would see Mary there and then you would see Jesus crucified and you would see him and go into the tomb. Then on Easter, we would open it and he was gone. 
We would just have tangible little things. And you can make those at home. There's lots of great things on Pinterest to show you how to make those. But just making sure that the kids knew what we're doing had a purpose and a meaning much bigger than an Easter bunny because our Savior gave His life for us. And so we wanted to help them to understand that as early as possible, that He died for us, but He's living in heaven and we can go there one day. That's hard for a little mind to capture. So there are some great tools out there for that. [00:12:52] 
Laura Dugger: I love that. It reminds me of my own tradition growing up with my family. We would call them empty tomb rolls or resurrection rolls, kind of what you were speaking about. It was just a good visual aid as a child to start to understand a glimpse of this mystery. 
But for anybody listening who wants to incorporate it, like Shawn said, you take a marshmallow, you roll it up in a crescent roll. And then you can dip it in butter and then roll it in cinnamon sugar and bake it and the marshmallow will disappear. So that's a great practical tip to apply today. 
How about the 4th of July? 
Shawn Mazelin: It was just a family time. Cookouts, sparklers, going to see fireworks. We have holidays as a priority with our kids. I know there's a lot of families that holidays roll around and everybody scatters and goes other places. But for us, it was another time for us all to come together and celebrate our nation. And maybe not in a way that was in a deep meaning because we have so much heaviness on so many other holidays, but just a fun time that we're celebrating our independence as a country. [00:14:02] I was having that time as a family. 
Laura Dugger: What about Halloween? That can be a tricky holiday. So how did your family navigate it? 
Shawn Mazelin: Sure. You know, when my husband and I were first married, I tended to swing very strictly on Halloween, and we didn't celebrate it at all. I had read many books and had a hard time with that holiday. People would come and knock at the door, and we wouldn't answer the door, and we'd pretend that we weren't home. And it really didn't accomplish anything. 
So we didn't love that holiday, but we didn't really know what to do with it. Then churches started offering things to do. So we started to participate more in what our churches were offering. Then we did finally come to a point when we were at home and we would hand out candy and maybe hand out a track with it and explain what the gospel was to people. But the origination of that holiday is very pagan, and it's not something that we really had wanted to celebrate. [00:15:02] 
So we drew some lines with what we were celebrating and how we celebrated it, and tried to talk through it with our kids. Why do they dress up with costumes? And why are they asking for candy? We wanted to explain to them that it seems simple, but everything has a meaning. We just wanted them to be cautious. 
It's been amazing because, you know, I have one daughter that's grown up and she doesn't celebrate Halloween now. And I have another one that hands out candy at her door. But both of them, I think, would just participate with whatever at their church. 
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. That gives freedom to each listener to use their own discernment, like you said, maybe to understand the meaning behind it. But what an incredible thing to help bring the light of Jesus and be able to redeem something so dark. 
Shawn Mazelin: Right. 
Laura Dugger: What do you like to do for Thanksgiving traditions? 
Shawn Mazelin: We love to have a blessing jar where through the year you write things that you're grateful for. And we put them in the jar and we keep them throughout the year. Then on Thanksgiving we pass that jar around and everybody read one of them. [00:16:11] 
There has been years where we haven't been great about keeping up with that. So maybe the day before we're scrambling to write things and put them in the jar so we can read it the next day. But we like to make sure that we do say something that we're thankful for. 
And having family in, and again, making it special. Decorating the table, making it ornate and something that's more than just your average everyday dinner. So we pull out our nicest dinner glasses and our nicest plates and our nicest tablecloths and linen napkins and napkin rings and the nicest serving bowls. And it's a time that we really are coming together and saying, thank you, God, for all of these things and all of these people and all of these situations. 
One thing that I've learned is life is very short and we don't know when the last time we'll all be together is. I've had holidays where the next year, maybe that family member was no longer living and we didn't realize at the time that was the last time we would have with that family member. [00:17:17] So making those moments special. 
Then we also have a book that we pass around and everyone writes in that book what they're thankful for. We've had this one journal that we've written in for about 20 years. It's a pretty big book, but it's so fun to go back through that and see my children's little tiny kindergarten handwriting into their grown adult handwriting and see how their perception and gratitude has grown through the years as well. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's such a great idea and neat keepsake. Maybe I was inspired by you. Something that we do because our kids are so little, each year, ever since they were born, on Thanksgiving, we just trace one of their hands, like the traditional turkey, and then we write to God five things that we're thankful for. 
Shawn Mazelin: I love that. 
Laura Dugger: We just stick it in this Thanksgiving book that we have and we can pull it out and see how their little hands have grown over the years and their prayers of gratitude. 
Shawn Mazelin: I love that. [00:18:22] 
Laura Dugger: Okay, well, we saved the biggest holiday for last. What Christmas traditions or meals do you recommend? 
Shawn Mazelin: Well, Christmas tradition, you know, there are the fun things, the stockings, those fun things that we can hang up and put up. I think my kids have always enjoyed their Christmas stockings more than anything that they've ever received as a tangible gift. 
But we go ice skating every Christmas Eve. We try to get all dressed up after that and we go to a very nice restaurant as a family. There's an older mansion of a house here in the area that's turned into a restaurant. We love to go to this place and go for an elegant dinner. You know, just to have something that stands out with the kids. 
We do that on Christmas Eve. Then Christmas morning, everyone wakes up, and you're in your Christmas pajamas and you're always opening one gift on Christmas Eve. And it's always pajamas. They put those on, and they sleep in them, and they wear those for Christmas morning. [00:19:25] 
Then we have that opening our gifts. And while we're opening our gifts, I've got a Christmas casserole that's cooking. So after that, we're going into and having a big brunch. And then everyone's playing with their items or, you know, whatever they've gotten for Christmas. And then we transition into the afternoon with a big dinner and family and just people coming in or friends coming in or maybe people that don't have family in the area coming over and just having that time of having the time together. 
But my husband always reads the Christmas story and shares that. And we just take that time and remember God sending His Son. We read that as a family and we again have a time of prayer and we just celebrate who Jesus is. We're so grateful for that. 
We may watch, you know, the Nativity movie or other Christmas movies and just try to prepare our heart the whole time, not just for the things that people are going to buy that are under the tree, but our heart for who lives there. [00:20:29] 
Laura Dugger: You mentioned a breakfast casserole. Even getting really practical, for someone who's listening and maybe they're a mom and they feel overwhelmed at Christmas time, did you make some of that food ahead of time so you could be more fully present that day? 
Shawn Mazelin: I did. I usually made that on Christmas Eve morning because I told you we have a very full activity day and we're running. So I just would even take... it depends what I had and where we were, but you know, just eggs, spinach, maybe some bacon crumbles, cheese, mix it all up and let it sit in the fridge overnight and then bake it the next day. 
Laura Dugger: You shared a really great recipe that was a French toast casserole. Do you remember that? 
Shawn Mazelin: I do. I don't have the recipe in front of me, but yes, that French toast recipe is one that you make. Actually, I think it's an Amish French toast recipe. You can make it the day before, it sits in a refrigerator overnight, and then it just bakes while you're opening presents, and it's so easy. [00:21:34] 
Laura Dugger: And it smells the whole house, and you can even start to associate those smells with Christmastime as a memory. 
Shawn Mazelin: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Well, are there any other resources that come into mind that you want to highlight with any of these traditions? Oftentimes we think of food or resources or time spent together. Is there anything else you would add? 
Shawn Mazelin: With Easter, I have resurrection eggs that we share. You can order them from Family Life. We go around the table and everyone opens one egg on Easter day and it tells you part of the Easter story. And that is always a fun thing for the kids and the adults to do is to open that up and to see the different parts of the aspects of Easter. [00:22:20] 
But as far as preparing meals and making things special, pull in your heritage. Pull in something that was something maybe your grandmother made. I'm Italian, so we make meatballs on New Year's Day, which is always a fun thing. I make those the day before, and then they're in the crock pot the whole day on New Year's Day. We just try to pull in some of our heritage and make it special and unique to us. 
Maybe something I don't do every time or every week, you know, pull out those things that mean something to your family. One of the things that I've tried to teach our kids, the verse that's Proverbs 22:1, it says, "A good name is more desirable than great riches. To be respected is more than gold or silver." I want my kids to know who they are. That's why we do those things in our holidays as family, because I want them to embrace being a Mazelin, embrace being who God created them to be, and to know that that is a fulfilling thing to guard your... your reputation, it's more desirable. And to feel the roots of their heritage. [00:23:34] 
So finding those things that are special and unique to your family, or maybe your husband's family. Maybe his grandma made something special that you want to bring in and incorporate and pass on. Or maybe there's a book or something that they read from years ago that you want to incorporate in your family and pass on as a legacy. So looking for those things that are already there that we don't have to reinvent. 
Laura Dugger: I've never thought of that before. We're going to link to quite a few resources and ideas in the show notes just so people can come here, grab whatever tip works for their family, and hopefully be inspired to create some memories today. 
Now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Inc in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. [00:24:33] 
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. 
They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Lemans". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. 
Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Inc in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. 
Learn more at their website, Lemaneureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:25:40] 
Laura Dugger: Hey, friends, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that we're asking for ratings and reviews on whatever platform you use to listen to this podcast. If you would be willing, could you also hit subscribe to the podcast and share this with a friend? Thanks for listening. Now back to the show. 
We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. So, Shawn, as we conclude today, what is your savvy sauce? 
Shawn Mazelin: My savvy sauce is taking my family and letting them know how greatly they are loved, to be that encourager. Sometimes as a mom we become very heavy and we can become about correcting and training, but we forget the loving, the kind, the fun, the investing part of it. 
So my savvy sauce today would be to be the encourager and to look for the creative, fun ways to build memories into your family. [00:26:42] 
Laura Dugger: You have such a heart of encouragement, and thank you for sharing all of that with us today. 
Shawn Mazelin: Thank you. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:27:48] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:28:48] 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:29:51] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

28 Serving the Foster Community with The Forgotten Initiative Founder, Jami Kaeb

28. Serving the Foster Community with The Forgotten Initiative Founder, Jami Kaeb
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Scripture NIV Psalm 68:5+6(a) “A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling. God sets the lonely in families,”
 
Jami Kaeb is a dreamer and a coffee lover! She is married to Clint and the mother of seven–five through adoption. It was through a difficult season of waiting that Clint and Jami’s eyes were opened to the foster care community. They became foster parents to three siblings who they eventually adopted. Jami founded The Forgotten Initiative in April 2011.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Connect Online:
The Forgotten Initiative Website
The Forgotten Initiative – Facebook
The Forgotten Initiative - Instagram
 
Jami’s Recommended Books:
Confessions of an Adoptive Parent
Reframing Foster Care
The Connected Child 
 
Additional Recommended Websites:
Empowered to Connect
 
Other Podcasts Jami Recommends:
Tapestry Empowered to Connect Podcast
Honestly Adoption
Foster Movement Podcast
 
Conferences Recommended by Jami:
Refresh Chicago
Christian Alliance for Orphans (CAFO) 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Fae & Monroe 
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by Fae & Monroe. They make hand-stamped jewelry and accessories, and they are located right here in Central Illinois. They provide delicate, personal everyday necklaces, as well as keychains and accessories. Check them out online at FayAndMonroe.com. 
Today we get to chat with Jamie Kaeb. She is a dreamer and a coffee lover. She is married to Clint and the mother of seven, five through adoption. Jamie founded the Forgotten Initiative in 2011, and today we get to hear more of her story, we get to be inspired by God's work, and she will share with each of us how we can serve the foster care community in unique ways. Here's our chat. 
Well, hello, Jamie. Thanks so much for joining us today. 
Jamie Kaeb: I'm really excited to talk with you and to have this conversation.
Laura Dugger: If anyone hasn't met you yet or heard about the Forgotten Initiative, would you mind just sharing a little background on both?
Jamie Kaeb: So for us, I would say even all the way back to several years ago, if you would have asked me, you know, what do you think about adoption or foster care, would you ever do that? I would have said, oh my goodness, only if I cannot have children, because I was very afraid of adoption. Honestly, I really didn't even think about foster care.
And I remember when Paige was an infant, and now she's 15, hearing a broadcast on the radio about adoption. And I can still vividly feel that pit in my stomach as I said to the Lord, "I hope you're not trying to tell me something."
So that's where I was. [00:02:00] But God, in His gracious way, was so faithful to bring people into my life who opened my eyes and brought awareness to this whole world of adoption and ultimately foster care. For us, adoption became our first experience was with our son Hudson, who we adopted from Guatemala. 
And then it was now 2008, and we had kind of caught this adoption bug, and we already had another daughter. So we had two daughters biologically, and then we adopted our son. And now we wanted to adopt again, and this time we were going to try to adopt from the United States. 
God took us on a journey that was not what we expected. It was very painful because basically, every person said, No, this is not, this is no. And for me, it was a very difficult time because I'm a very emotional person and all in. And so when God was saying no, no, no to adoption, I was saying, "Why? This is a good thing. I don't understand this. This hurts. This stinks. I hate this." [00:03:00] 
And yet God, in His graciousness, opened our eyes to a whole new world. Through the journey of saying no and the journey of waiting, He opened our eyes to a whole new world, the world of foster care. He taught us that it's not about bringing a child into our family, but it's about bringing our family to a child. 
So we started to go to foster care classes. This is where we learned that really foster care is about coming alongside another family. It's not just about providing a safe place for kids, which it is, but it's about coming alongside another family for temporary, for time, with the hope that if this family can come back together, then that's a win. 
So we kind of learned about that. And at the same time as we're learning about foster care, I remember watching a video of a little girl who was waiting in a foster care office. The worker was calling around trying to find a home for her and everyone was saying, "No, I can't. I can't." [00:04:00] 
And watching that there and getting to know this world of foster care was just eye-opening and it just broke my heart. I could not believe that this was happening in my own community. I thought, "This is not okay."
So this time we had our three kids still, and I went to DCFS, our local foster care agency, never had been there before, never knew what to expect. But I walked in and I said, "Please tell me what happens to these kids. Where do they go? Where do they wait? I need to know" because I did not know.
So they let me see some of the rooms where kids will visit with their parents. And just as I walked in there, it was just heartbreaking because the furniture was hard, the walls were blank, the toys were broken, some of them, and it just made me sad. And I thought, "How can kids who are being pulled from everything that they know come here? That is not okay."
So I asked them, I said, "Can we do something about this? Can I bring in people? Can we make over these rooms and make them beautiful." Essentially they said, "Well, will you pay for it?" And I said, "Sure." [00:05:04]  
So we called on people I got on Facebook and I called them my friends and family and I said, "Let's create a space that says, you are special to these kids, so that they know that there are people who are thinking of them and who care for them."
So for me, I always describe this as a puzzle piece, because what I saw there is the same thing I see today many years later, is that God's people really do care, they just don't know how to help, or maybe they just don't know that there's this need out there. 
But when I reached out to people and said, Okay, this room needs done, we need painters, we need brand new toys, we need people to put shelves together, people jumped on board and they were so excited to get involved. 
And also watching the response of the agency to see men and women who work there in this really dark field often, laughing and excited and just kind of blown away that we were even there, was so beautiful. So again, it was like God was saying, Listen, the church, they care. It's not that they don't care. It's just that they don't know. [00:06:05] That was a puzzle piece I always described as saying God was putting together this picture.
And as I got to know workers, I started asking more questions. "Okay, what else do you need? Help me understand. I need to know. This is all so new to me. What do you need? What do your families need?" And as I learned, another common need is diapers. You know, maybe a child will come into DCFS with a soiled diaper and maybe there's nothing on hand. 
So the worker, in the middle of this transition time that is scary for the kids, they have to run out to Walmart and often pull out of their own pocket money to pay for diapers. So I'm like, this is easy. So I got on Facebook again and said to my friends, "Let's do a diaper drive." And I wrote, "Let's get 30 boxes of diapers for these agencies." And then I changed my mind and said, "No, let's get a hundred boxes of diapers."
Laura, I'm telling you, again, God's people just stepped up and responded. I started getting diapers to my door almost daily. I think the speedy delivery guy who delivered these diapers thought I was crazy. But it was so beautiful to watch diapers being delivered from all over the United States because people were sending them from Amazon. [00:07:16] Someone even sent them from Japan. Someone who had read the blog apparently sent diapers from Japan.
It was this beautiful way to walk into one agency in town. We got over 100 boxes of diapers and wipes combined, but I took about 30 of those to one agency and I said to them, "This is from the body of Christ. We need you to know that we see you, we care about you, and we just want to do what we can to support you." Again, their response was just overwhelmed. They could not believe that we would do that, that we would think of them. 
So God took those puzzle pieces and put them together in a picture that became the Forgotten Initiative. What started then as a movement in my community to just learn the needs, to share the needs of God's people, and then help the church to be the hands and feet of Jesus to this agency and to the families that they serve and the kids that they serve and the foster parents that they serve has moved, has spread all across the nation where now we have 35 communities serving their agencies. [00:08:17] 
We call them advocates. They're leaders in their community. They're volunteers who are going out and they're saying, This is not okay. We need to make a difference. And so they're serving and we're just continuing to bring awareness because like I've learned and like we believe, awareness leads to action.
So that's really the story, really, to TFI. And during this journey, as we're in those foster care classes, after going through the classes and really getting our whole brains around this idea of foster care, we determined that, yes, this is what we want to do. 
After those classes, we got a call about two little boys. They were three and seven months old, and they needed a foster home. And I will never forget the day that they were coming in to our house. I was waiting. We had not seen them. We really knew very little about them. I was waiting in my house excited, nervous, until the caseworker pulled up. [00:09:08] 
And as she did, I ran out there and I saw three-year-old Dade who was very quiet and very nervous. And I just remember looking at him and saying, "I am so happy to have you here." And then looking at little seven-month-old Bobby, who was just a baby, and just thinking, "Wow, this is the beginning."
And for us, as beautiful as that moment was, and we'll talk more about this, I'm sure, but there was definitely some challenges along the way as well. But about five months after those two boys joined our family, their sister also needed a foster home, and so we said yes to her. 
So at this point, we had six kids and at that age, they were seven, five, four, three, two, and one. So life changed very dramatically. But that is a little bit about our journey to foster care. 
Laura Dugger: You mentioned all of the children's ages. As you continued adding children, did they continue to be the youngest one chronologically as well? Does that make sense? 
Jamie Kaeb: Absolutely. And for our situation, those three were the only three that came into our home to foster care because they ended up needing adopting. So we did adopt them. [00:10:16]  And in Illinois, once you have six in your home under 18, you can no longer foster. 
So for us, our foster care journey was done at that stage. But later on, God did call us to adoption. We met some kids from Zambia. I remember telling my husband one night, "Listen, Clint, I don't know what God's doing, but I feel like we need to pray about adopting from Africa." And I remember Clint saying, "Okay, let's pray, but don't expect anything." Now we have a six-year-old little guy from Africa. He was born in Uganda. We brought him home three years ago. His name is Friday.
Laura Dugger: That's such a beautiful story. Could you tell us two things? You mentioned Zambia, which you actually have some personal connections there. I'd love to have you elaborate on that, and then help people understand if they're interested in becoming an advocate, what can they do? 
Jamie Kaeb: Sure. So Zambia, my parents started the ministry called Lifesong for Orphans, and TFI is actually a ministry of Lifesong for Orphans. We're really a foster care piece of what they do. But they have a school in Zambia. [00:11:19] 
My sister actually was a missionary over there for a time and brought some kids home from Zambia to travel around the state singing and raising money for their program there. And so it was through that and getting to know those kids on a more personal level that really opened our eyes to Africa.
So as far as becoming an advocate, the best thing to do is just go to our website, which is theforgotteninitiative.org, and click on "become an advocate". You will find out what it really means to be an advocate. We have information on who are advocates, what is required of an advocate, how to become an advocate. So really that is just going to be your best place to go straight there. We encourage you to do that because we need more advocates in communities all across the nation.
Laura Dugger: Incredible. We'll link to that in our show notes so it makes it easy for everyone to click over. Do you have any favorite stories that just come to mind as you reflect on your years with the Forgotten Initiative? [00:12:19] 
Jamie Kaeb: What God has really taught me through this journey is that the birth family is so much a part of this as well. So many times I think when we think about adoption or foster care, we think about just the child. But there are parents out there, and really on the day that we received those wonderful boys who we just love, that was the day that their parents' arms were empty as well. And so our hearts were full because we were ready to start, but the sailing on the other side was empty and broken. So there's just pain and joy that go side by side in foster care and adoption. 
I think so much of the experiences I've had with their birth mom. I'll call her Sandra here. But I remember the first time we ever talked and she was nervous and I was nervous and she had stereotypes of foster parents like me and I had stereotypes of birth parents like her. And yet as we talked and we started to learn each other's stories, we developed a relationship to the point that when she became pregnant again, she asked me to be at the birth. [00:13:22] 
Those who know me know I am very weak in the mind, in the sense of, if you talk about a health issue... in fact, this happened to me once where someone was telling me about their health issue and I literally passed right out. I am not very strong in this way, so I was like, Okay, Lord, if you want me to do this, then you have to work supernaturally. But the opportunity to be at the birth when nobody else was there, to be able to go there with her, to breathe with her, to wipe her forehead with a cool rag when she was contracting. 
And then I remember one time as she had kind of gotten the pain under control, I was going to go down and quickly grab a sandwich. And I didn't want to eat in front of her because when I was in labor, I did not want people eating in front of me. And so I thought, "Okay, I'm going to head down." And she stopped me at the dorm. She said, Jamie, "Will you come right back up?"
To me, it just reminded me of the power of my presence. I didn't do it perfectly by any means, but I was there for her. She wasn't that much younger than me, maybe 10 years, but I was like a mom figure to her. And what's been really amazing is that even now we have a relationship. [00:14:31] 
We brought those kids into our home in 2010, and even now we have a relationship. And she has said to me over the years, "Jamie, thank you for not changing your phone number. Thank you for being there when I call." There's times over the years we talked very, very little. But now she has two little boys that have never seen foster care. So we are able to bring those boys into our home. Once a month I give her a break and we take them overnight. So our kids are actually experiencing time with their birth siblings. 
And she told me the other day that she was talking about me and she described me as her best, best friend.
To me, that is just a picture of redemption and a picture of just God's beauty from ashes. And I get to tell her, "Listen, you have done a good job. You are a good mom. It is okay to need a break." And she eats that up because she needs to hear that word of affirmation. 
So many of our kids in foster care and our parents in foster care, they must know that they are special, that their life is valuable, that they are not what they've done, but they are precious in the sight of God. [00:15:36]
Laura Dugger: It's just a side of foster care that you really don't naturally think of. So it's great to bring that to light. And you had alluded to this earlier. You mentioned there's been some difficult seasons as well. Can you just share?
Jamie Kaeb: Yes, absolutely. I would say the most difficult piece of adoption or foster care specifically for me is the emotional roller coaster. Because when you adapt internationally, there are challenges for sure. But what we learned in adoption is that even though we might not always feel 100% bonded to the child, we are 100% committed. We're not going anywhere, and neither are they.
With foster care though, you can be 100% committed to the time that you have. You don't know that they're going to be there forever. So you don't get the opportunity to dream of their future in your family. You are not their parent and it is your job to still respect their parent for being a human being and understanding that kids want to be with their mom and dad. [00:16:37] 
I remember nights just holding Bobby as a baby and just thinking, "Okay, Lord, I love this kid so much but he's not mine, and I've got to release him to you because I don't know if he's going to go home." I think that is extremely challenging. 
Then just the vulnerability. I can talk now about my relationship with their birth mom, but there were definitely times when I couldn't take her texts or her calls because I was so emotionally spent. I did not have any energy for her. She was not in a healthy place at that stage as she is now. 
And so I think the weariness and the pouring out of yourself and the behaviors that can come from kids with trauma, the fact that many of them have learning disabilities. And these were all things we had not experienced before. So they were all very new. And understanding why is a child who's eight years old acting like a three-year-old. [00:17:29] 
We learned in foster care classes and through our experience that kids have different ages in the sense that let's say there's a child who's eight physically, but in their little life, they have seen more than maybe a 50-year-old has seen. So experientially, they might be 50 but emotionally, they have not been cared for in the way a healthy family cares for their child. So they have not had these building blocks. 
So their emotional age is maybe more of a 3-year-old. And so when they throw a fit, they may look more like a 3-year-old because they don't know how to do it like an 8-year-old. So just learning those things and trying to understand kids where they're at and not parent the way you just feel to parent, even though we blew it many times. 
But the other thing is I definitely went through a season of depression through that, starting having three kids and then going to six kids essentially in a few months. We moved, we got head lice, we got staph infections, all things that came through foster care. [00:18:33] 
Those are the hard things. I mean, I just remember feeling so dark sometimes and so vulnerable and like, I don't want to do this anymore. It is not fun. It is scary. What if something happens to my children? All those kinds of questions and fears are very real in the foster care journey.
Laura Dugger: Wow, thank you for being transparent so that we can put ourselves in your shoes. 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
Sponsor: Fae & Monroe, owned by Allison [Suter?], makes hand-stamped jewelry and accessories, and they are located right here in Central Illinois. They provide delicate, personal, everyday necklaces with personalized stamping, such as your wedding date on a necklace. They also offer stamped keychains and accessories that can be used on backpacks, purses, and cosmetic cases or wallets. I ordered a keychain for my mother-in-law and we had the charm stamped with each grandchild's initial. She loved it! 
Fae & Monroe's products make excellent gifts for everyone from grandparents to young daughters or students. Check them out at FaeandMonroe.com or on Facebook and Instagram @FaeandMonroe. [00:19:39] 
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Laura Dugger: During those really dark seasons, what was it that got you through that time?
Jamie Kaeb: Oh, I think certainly the body of Christ. This is something I think. Like, I remember one night just crying out to God and just being so down and getting a phone call from my mom and just, "Hey, I want to check on you. I know you've been struggling." 
And I'll tell you, like, I could still cry about that today because I think so much how I grew up in a loving Christian home. I had every opportunity that I could ever hope for. And yet I still get very down sometimes and I still struggle and I still feel insecure. 
Then I think about these kids and these families and how can we expect them to walk in a healthy way all the time or to just keep going or to just do what they need to do because they don't have the people around them. [00:20:40] 
I remember one time when we had head lice and I was so... this was right after our third one came and I was so [inaudible 00:20:49]  And Clint and I were going to take a date and we needed this date so desperately. And a friend was going to come babysit. And when we found the head lice, I texted her and said, "Listen, this is our situation, you know, we'll reschedule." And she wrote right back and she said, "No, no, no, I'm still coming. I'll be there." 
Again, another time I could just bawl because she was willing to step into our mess and be there for us. And I can't tell you, that night was so powerful, just to know that there's people with us. I can still remember where I was standing when I opened a note from a friend who said, "I just want you to know that I appreciate what you're doing and we're praying for you. And here's a gift card to Starbucks. Go have a coffee on us."
These kinds of things might seem so simple to us, but for the one who's struggling, oh my goodness, it means everything because what it says to us is that we're not alone. [00:21:41] 
Laura Dugger: Wow. And that mobilizes all of us to know what kind of action we can all take even today. It just leads into another question I have. You've talked about the difficulties, but what have been some of the unexpected joys? 
Jamie Kaeb: I would say the opportunity to enter someone else's story, the opportunity to have my eyes opened in a way that would not have happened without foster care adoption, the opportunity to experience Christ in a whole new way when things kind of seem like they're okay, the opportunity to watch my biological kids open their arms to kids from other homes, other cultures, other ethnicities, the opportunity to live in a family that is very diverse and that we can say to each other different is awesome. 
I mean, there are so many. I cannot even begin to say what a gift foster care has been to our family and to our home. We would not be the same people we are today. And just the opportunity to know my children. Five of my children I would never know without foster care or adoption. [00:22:45] 
Laura Dugger: Yes. And we hear you. We see you. We appreciate all that you've done as well. More importantly, you know that God sees you. Is there anything specific that He's taught you through this season?
Jamie Kaeb: Yes. I would say a few things. It's not about me. That's a big one. Just realizing that it's not about me. His job is not to make me happy or to make things go okay for me. He's going to be there with me always, but it's not about me. When things go wrong, it's not because He's angry with me. It's just because life is hard and He's going to be there. So that's a huge one. It's not about me. 
Another one, God's plan is often different than our plan. But when you trust Him, oh my goodness, the adventure of faith. I love walking this journey because it is so beyond me, and to be able to experience the adventure of faith. We went through a failed adoption in Uganda, and going through that experience was extremely painful. [00:23:47] 
But before meeting our little girl, we found ourselves on these bota-botas, which are like dirt bikes, traveling, riding up into the mountains of Uganda with 100-foot drop-offs off the side as the path narrowed and narrowed on our way to meet our little girl, going by kids who had never seen White people in their lives, yelling out to us, "Mzungu, Mzungu!"
Experiencing opportunities like this, meeting her sister, we didn't know she had a sister, meeting her family, ultimately that adoption didn't go through, and it's good it didn't. But meeting her sister, having an opportunity to show these girls what running water is, what toilets are, speaking some English to them, just loving them, brushing their hair, getting an opportunity to create an internship for her older sister so she could learn how to do hair after I found out she loved that. 
I mean, going to Uganda and living there for a month as we finished up the adoption of Friday, meeting our son for the first time wearing pink pants and a bunny shirt, understanding that he was ours and we were his,
going to Guatemala and meeting our son Hudson, meeting our little children here for the first time, going to court, meeting their birth parents. [00:25:05] 
I mean, the adventure of faith when you let go and you trust God, it's wild. So I would say that it's not about me. God's plan is often different, but trust Him because you don't want to miss out. 
Then finally, this has been more of a recent learning as we enter and love on people who are vulnerable, even today, that my job is not to help them look like me. It's not my job to make them look like me, but my job is to love them like Jesus. It is too hard to try to be the savior for them. That's not our job. It's not our job to be the hero. Our job is to simply be there and to love them. 
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I've heard you say before that not everyone is going to be a foster parent, but everyone can still play a part. So would you mind just educating us a bit on foster care needs and how each of us can get involved?
Jamie Kaeb: Well, I think it's also important to understand from the get-go that children enter foster care because of abuse or neglect. It's not because of something they have done. Sometimes people don't understand that. They think, you know, it's a delinquent child or they've had to leave because of something they've done in their home. That is not the case. So I do just want to mention that. 
So that means they're entering foster care with trauma. And trauma can show itself out in a lot of different ways in behaviors. Someone once said, I think it was Josh Shipp, said, what kids don't talk out, they'll act out. So just understand some of those things from the front. [00:27:11] 
But I think when you talk about foster care needs, they really are as unique as you and I. Sometimes they're tangible needs, like a bed, for example. Kids cannot return home until they have a bed in the home. So maybe Dad has done everything that he needs to do, but he can't afford to get a bed. So that's where TFI can come in, or anyone really. But that's where people come in and bring a bed to this dad so that his kids can come home. We've seen that happen. Backpacks. We call them journey bags. You can call them whatever you want, but they're backpacks for kids who come into care. They're filled with brand new items. 
The reason for this is because otherwise kids have garbage bags. They're moved from home to home with garbage bags. In fact, I remember hearing a story in our area of a little girl who was six years old, and she moved to a new foster home with her garbage bag. And as her foster dad was unpacking, she stopped him because he was about to throw away that garbage bag. And she stopped him and said, "Oh, no, no, please don't throw that away. I'm going to need that when I move again." [00:28:15] So for a kid to think that that's their normal. 
A journey bag is so small, but the response we get from kids who receive those bags and even teenagers who receive those bags and the agency, they love handing those out because it's just like Christmas. It's just a little joy in the midst of a hard time. It's not everything.
We've heard stories of kids actually coming to Jesus because they read the Bible that was in the bag, and it brought them back to the faith that they had learned of long ago. We've had kids who have seen a bag, and in one story, a church had like 500 bags, and half of those bags went to one agency, and another sort went to another agency, and one kid opens his bag and it has the book Diarrhea of a Wimpy Kid, which is his absolute favorite book. And not everybody has that. I mean, just little tiny touch points that God says, "I see you. I'm with you. I love you."
Notes of encouragement is huge. Like I told you in my situation, but we've also heard foster moms receiving a note from a journey bag. Her teenager had the journey bag. It was a very hard placement. We heard that this mom took that note out of the bag that was written to her and she put that on her fridge and that note is what kept her going because she knew that she could do this. She was not in this alone. [00:29:32] 
So there are so many tangible needs. So many. There's also very many emotional needs. Kids need mentors. Kids need to know that they have someone to look up to. They need people to just be there. Families need mentors. Kids need life skills help. 
A lot of times kids who are aging out don't even know how to do something as simple maybe that seems to us as baking cookies. They've never had that life experience that we've done with our moms for years. They don't know how to balance a checkbook. They don't know how, if they need glasses, to go advocate for themselves and go get glasses. I mean, they don't know how to put together a resume. They don't know what to do when their car breaks down. I mean, they just don't know because they haven't experienced it.
The needs are... there's thousands of them. But the idea that we like to impress on people is that, what are you excited about? And then what do you do good at? Are you good at art? Are you good at painting? Are you good at...? And then try to match that up with maybe a need that is in your area. [00:30:35] 
If you have a TFI advocate in your area, talk to them, find out what the needs are right now in your community and you can do that. Again, just go to the website and there's a page that says "meet our advocates" and you can find your advocate in your area. Ask them what are the needs and then find the need that fits you and make a difference.
Laura Dugger: Looking at bigger picture, what vision do you have for the church and foster care in the future? 
Jamie Kaeb: I envision God's people rising up in every single community across our nation to serve, to mentor, to support the men, the women, and the children in foster care. I want to see God's people... and it's happening through TFI, through many, many other organizations as well. It is a movement that is bigger than one organization. But that God's people are rising up and they are seeing this need, they're seeing these people and that they are getting involved at all different levels. And so that is our vision. 
Our mission is that God's people rise up in every single community, whether that be through TFI or not. So that is why we are so intentional about bringing awareness and education and opportunities to serve. [00:31:39] 
Laura Dugger: And you've given us a resource where we can get started with your website. You also do podcasts where you highlight foster care stories and even things we wouldn't think of related to it, like human trafficking. What other resources would you recommend if somebody wants to learn more about this topic?
Jamie Kaeb: Our Facebook page, the whole point of our Facebook page is just to bring hope and encouragement in education. And so you're going to find little about TFI and a lot just opportunities to share or get insight. So go there, facebook.com/forgotteninitiative and you're just going to see a lot of graphics that have a quote on them or an article that is going to bring encouragement or awareness. That's a huge place to go. 
Our blog that's on our website. I love our blog because it is written by foster parents, by people in the field. I mean, we basically just try to curate a lot of great content. We find great bloggers and we say, "Hey, do you want to join our team?" [00:32:39] So our blogs are not written by TFI, they're written by people out in the field. So we're just trying to share. 
Basically, I heard, I think it was Michael Hyatt saying once, you need to be the DJ and play the hits. And that's kind of our goal on Facebook, on Instagram, on our blog is let's find the best information and get it out there in the hands of our people. 
The other thing I really am excited about is we just created a brand new children's book series. We call it the Who Loves series. This is for kids in foster care specifically, though any child could read it. And I would encourage other children who don't have this experience to read it too, because it will definitely give them an insight into the world of those kids in foster care who may be in their own classrooms at school.
So this brand new resource you can find at wholoveseries.org. But there's basically three books, and they're written to different age groups, to babies, to toddlers, or babies, to 3-7 year olds, and to 7-10 year olds. And it just really gives insight into the people that our kids interact with and also the emotions and the questions that our kids in foster care have. [00:33:46] 
Laura Dugger: That is so exciting. I didn't know about that. Any other resources you would recommend? 
Jamie Kaeb: Find our website, find the blog, find the podcast. I mean, all of that is great. But I would also say there's some other great podcasts out there. There's a blog called Confessions of an Adaptive Parent.
They do a blog called Honestly Adoption. 
There's a blog on a ministry called Tapestry Ministry, Empowered to Connect. Their podcast is a lot more about, okay, I found out my child's lying, what do I do? So they're gonna be a lot more practical. 
There's a book called Confessions of an Adoptive Parent, a book by Jason Johnson called Reframing Foster Care. We live in a good time, you guys, because there's a lot of good information. 
One other thing is anyone who enjoys conferences, there's a conference called CAFO, Christian Alliance for Orphans, but it is a conference if you are interested in foster care adoption or orphan care of any kind, you need to go. They do come this way, they've been in Chicago. But that's a really great resource too. [00:34:52] 
There's also a conference called Refresh, and that is a conference for foster parents and those who are considering foster care as well. 
Laura Dugger: Awesome. This conversation has been eye-opening. I just appreciate your openness to share your story. Now we'll end with a more playful question. So our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And now knowing that definition, what is your savvy sauce? 
Jamie Kaeb: I would say, I mean, practical knowledge... I am not a very practical person in a lot of ways, but I'll tell you some little tips of things that I do in my life to kind of keep things going. One thing that has been huge for our family is we call it quiet time. We started this when Paige really was two and she stopped taking naps. And I was like, no, no, this is not good.
When we had few kids the quiet time was much shorter. As we've grown in our family, the quiet time has gotten quite a bit longer. But I'll tell you every single day... Now all my kids are at school but even on the weekends we make our kids go to their rooms and do something quietly for two and a half hours. [00:36:06] 
I know two and a half hours might sound like a whole lot of time. But I'm telling you it is essential for our family because I need that time and my kids need that time. And they don't love it but they have learned too that's just part of our life. And I want them to understand that in your daily rhythm, you need to take time to just pause and to stop and to be quiet. 
I would say also scheduling date nights with your spouse, that has been huge for Clint and I. We schedule date night every two weeks and we have a sitter and we have it on the calendar and it just happens. And we forget that it's coming up and all of a sudden we'll see in our calendar, Oh my goodness, it's date night. That has been huge for us to just stay connected. 
We go out for four hours, so we go out and we sit and eat and then we'll just maybe go to Barnes and Nobles and just read even separately. It's enough time that we can talk through whatever we need to talk through. [00:37:03] 
Honestly, sometimes we can even get a little bit bored and be like, okay, what do we do now? And I think that's a healthy place to be because you need that time. There's nights when we just talk, talk, talk and there's nights when we'll sit and read together, just be... I think date nights with kids is another big thing that we do.
Actually, it's eight in the mornings usually, once a week, in general. This definitely can spread out longer than it is. But once a week, I will take a kid or Clint will take a kid out to like Denny's for breakfast. And so basically the goal is that every week one of us is taking one of our kids. For us, having a big family, it's really, really important to us that we invest in them, that they know that they are heard. They're not just one of the pack. I want them to know that mom gets me, and mom hears me, and mom sees me, and dad sees me. 
So those are a few things I think are huge. Can I give a couple more? I love this kind of stuff. 
Laura Dugger: This is amazing. 
Jamie Kaeb: This gets me going. This gets me excited, is organization stuff, because I think having a big family, you feel like a lot of things are out of control. [00:38:07] And so there are some things you can control. 
Putting workout clothes out the night before so when I wake up, I will go to the gym. If I don't put them out, often I won't go. That's something simple. I think making kids work is huge. I tell them, "Guys, I can't do this on my own. I need your help. 
I heard from a friend who taught her kids when they were eight years old how to do laundry. So last summer, I taught all kids who were eight and older how to do their own laundry. And in the summer, their job was to do their own laundry, to wash, dry and fold it and get it in their rooms. That was huge. 
The final thing that has been a game changer and has changed my whole life is online grocery ordering. 
Laura Dugger: Well, with a family that big, you have to have these amazing ways to all work together. I just want to say thank you for bringing a voice to the voiceless, for being obedient to God's specific call on your life. Your faith has clearly been put into action, and it glorifies our God. He's the one who desires and offers to be the Father to the fatherless. So thanks again for doing your part, Jamie. 
Jamie Kaeb: Laura, thank you so much. [00:39:16] 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:40:22] 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:41:24] 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.