*The Savvy Sauce*

47 Relationships and Opportunities that Arise from Using Your Gifts with Founder of Neighbor’s Table, Sarah Harmeyer

47. Relationships and Opportunities that Arise from Using Your Gifts with Founder of Neighbor’s Table, Sarah Harmeyer
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Mark 12:30-32 (NIV) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” 
 
Sarah Harmeyer is the founder of Neighbor’s Table, a concept born from her personal passion for gathering people, and her desire to get to know her own neighbors. She has personally witnessed how lives are transformed when people gather around the table and share their stories. Sarah asked her father to build a cedar farmhouse style table big enough to seat 20. They placed it under the oak tree in her backyard in Dallas Texas, dropped chandeliers overhead, and started inviting. Sarah set a goal to serve 500 that year, one dinner party after another. The 500th guest walked up her driveway on Thanksgiving Day. Now five years later, more than 3,000 people have celebrated at the original Neighbor’s Table. The power of community that now regularly happens at the original Neighbor’s Table has spurred a desire to launch a movement – a love mission, if you will. Sarah’s vision is to have tables in backyards across the US, placing them in every state by 2020. Together, Sarah and her father are building more than custom handcrafted tables. They are growing a Neighbor’s Table family nationwide.
 
Outside of gathering at her own table in Dallas, she loves delivering tables across the country. Sarah loves travel in general, and often journeys to visit friends and to share her story with various groups. When she's not working, Sarah gets weak in the knees for Twizzlers, monogrammed shirts, and her new niece.
 
Neighbor’s Table Website
 
Connect with Sarah on social media sites @neighborstable
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Zimmerman Builders, Inc.
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:16]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by Zimmerman Builders. They are located in Roanoke, Illinois and they serve customers in Woodford, Tazewell, Peoria, and McLean counties. You can find them on the web at ZimmermanBuildersInc.com or on Facebook at Zimmerman Builders INC. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer is a community gatherer and joy bringer. You are going to love this episode as she shares about her journey to become the founder of Neighbors Table. Through stories and practical tips, she's going to leave you feeling inspired to love others by using the gifts God has already given you. 
 
Sarah has hosted over 3,000 people in her backyard in Dallas, Texas, and now she's starting to multiply this vision by building tables for people around the country and delivering them in person. I hope you enjoy our chat. 
 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Sarah. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Aw, thanks, Laura. I'm excited to be here. [00:01:23] 
 
Laura Dugger: Excited to have you with us. Let's just start by having you give us a glimpse of your life. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: A bird's-eye view kind of of my life right now. I'm single in my early 40s living in Dallas, Texas and I have been here for well since 2010. I guess I would call myself a people gatherer. That's probably my identity a bit. I'm the founder and chief people gather of Neighbors Table, a small business that we kind of cheer people on to love their neighbors, and if they need a table to do so, we would love to build them one. 
 
I have a sister and a little niece and her husband live here in Dallas with me. Then my dad calls home on our ranch just south of Austin, Texas. We are Texans through and through. We're really proud of stuff down here. I don't know what, Laura, but are you guys as proud in Illinois as we are down here in Texas?
 
Laura Dugger: I don't know. I've never met someone with so much state pride as my friends from Texas, so you might win. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: It is true. It's an interesting thing. [00:02:31] 
 
Laura Dugger: No, it's a great state. I was first introduced to your story through a different podcast that my friend Kara shared with me. I just love your story of starting Neighbors Table. So can you take us back and just share how did you even come up with this idea? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yeah, I moved to Dallas back in 2010. I was kind of at my young professionals career, like a lot of us probably have experienced, Laura. My identity was really wrapped up in my work. And I just had a really great friend and dear couple, a pastor friend of mine, and they both just saw that my identity was really in my work instead of in Christ. 
 
So we spent about three months together on the phone once a week and kind of re-resting my identity back in Christ. I needed someone to come alongside me during that time and kind of reshift my focus. And from that time with them, Eric and Kristen both helped me realize that God made me a people gatherer. [00:03:32] 
 
I really didn't know what that was when they first told me that, but they were like, "Sarah, you just love relationships. You love people. You love sharing your faith in really real ways. They just really encouraged me to think about how I might be a people gatherer in and outside the church. 
 
At the time, I really didn't know, Laura, what that looks like. I didn't know if that was leading a Bible study. I didn't know if it was a book club. I really didn't know how I would gather people. I spent a few months thinking about it, and I just kept thinking back to the very best moments of my life, and they are often around the table. 
 
This is hilarious, but I had a cafe out of my house in grad school, super illegally, and I served lunch three days a week to people that would want to come and eat at my house. I literally would put a mason jar on the table and just say, Pay whatever you want. That was the very best year of my life. 
 
And I thought to myself, "There's something about that year. There's something about getting to serve people. There's something about being creative and putting a meal in front of them. There was something that excited me about seeing people connect over the table. That's what I landed on. I said, that's how I'm going to gather people. I think the table is a really special part of my heart and how I have experienced God and connected with people over that. [00:04:57] 
 
So I have a tiny house in Dallas and kind of a small yard, just a little grassy part. I ended up asking my dad if he'd build me a table big enough to seat 20. That's how I kind of envisioned things. And we put that table outside. It's a gorgeous Table for 20. We put it under my tree back there and hung chandeliers overhead. 
 
I'm very goal-oriented so I wanted a goal to kind of live intentionally into the way God made me. I set a goal to serve 500 people in 2012 around my table just one dinner party after another. And when I started I only knew two of my neighbors. Throughout that year, I invited people and we would celebrate and gather for all different kinds of reasons. But on Thanksgiving Day that year, the 500th guest walked down the driveway. I still can see my dad clapping his hands. And I still remember the single mom walking down the driveway with her aunt squash casserole and her three girls running around her. 
 
It's embedded in my mind now is like the very best year of my life. But I kept going after that first initial year because God just kind of set my heart on fire for other people and I was the first person that was changed from that experience. So I've continued gathering people at my own table. We've had over 3,000 people now and about a year and a half. [00:06:25] 
 
Eric and Kristen called me back and they said, "Sarah, we see God getting a lot of glory around your table. I wonder if He has something outside your own yard." I had no clue what that meant, but the rest is kind of history. And that's when Neighbor's Table came to be. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, what an incredible story. And that couple seems like they really had different key moments where they spoke truth into your life. So I love that you mentioned them. You've said before that you give God the glory simply by using your gifts that He's given you, being a community gatherer. So I'm just wondering, how did you discover that gift? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: You know, there was no magic formula really. I spent a lot of time in prayer. It took several months. It wasn't something that came to me quickly. It might come to others more quickly than it did for me. But in most things, I kind of take my time. 
 
I think Eric and Kristen were surprised that from our time together, that was the thing that I hung on to was like, how can I really live into the way God made me? [00:07:30] For us, my time with them, a lot of the time spent was really learning how to work from a place of rest. That is hard for me. I like to strive and I like to do my best and all this stuff, but really they had shifted to, what if you just worked from the place of resting in who God's already made you to be? I think that's what it feels like when I gather now is I'm just getting to be who God made me to be. 
 
I would say prayer is probably the thing that I hang on to as far as navigating that. I get asked that question a lot. People are curious, like, oh, I want to find my thing. But I would say prayer is the one thing that helped kind of direct me to that. Because when they sent me off, they weren't even saying, Here, I think it's around the table. That was something that I discovered with the Lord of what I think was going to be the way that I could use that gift. [00:08:25] 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that he's so endlessly creative that it may look different for someone listening. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Totally. 
 
Laura Dugger: So you said you've been asked that a lot. How do you think someone listening can give God the glory through living out the way they were designed by Him? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: I think when you have that feeling when you're doing something that time passes and you realize, I can't believe I've been doing that for this long, or that was really fun, or that was really easy and this came really naturally to me, that is the way it feels like for me. There's a lot of joy when I'm gathering. I know for some people it's really stressful and it's a lot more work than maybe how it feels like to me. 
 
Other people are gifted in like teaching. When I have to teach, that's something that’s little more challenging and might have a lot more preparation for me than someone else that might have a natural gift for that. so I think just leaning into and really listening to how God's made us, I think is my best advice. [00:09:31] 
 
It's a good thing to ask your friends that know you well and just say, Hey, what do you think? How do you think God has given me strengths? Or where do you see that? If you can't, you know, reflect yourself, maybe ask the people around you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's great. Reflection, prayer, and even conversation or intentional questions. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yes. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, even looking at a really practical side, you said that you're still hosting people. So who do you choose to invite and how do you reach out to invite them? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: You know, my motto quickly became the more the merrier. When I started, I didn't even know 500 people in Dallas. So it quickly became everyone that I invited could bring a friend or a co-worker or anybody with them. 
 
I think it's a tendency for us to think about our guests and think about like, Oh, are they going to connect with each other or are they going to have similarities to each other? What I found, Laura, is that when we set the stage for our guests to feel like they're safe and that they could share who God made them to be in a safe environment, really, really good things can happen at the table. [00:10:42] 
 
So it is a beautiful mix of people at my table, whether that's me checking out the grocery line with a whole basket of groceries for the night off, and someone goes, Oh, are you having a party tonight? And I'll go, why, yes, I am. Would you like to come? And I'll ask the guy that's packing my groceries. Some of those guys have come here before or a plumber that's worked in my home has showed up and my neighbors, of course, have come down, or my co-workers or just anybody.
 
I always listen for the opportunities to invite people. And there has been all kinds of people at my table. That's kind of how I like to gather. 
 
Laura Dugger: And was that a cultivated skill? Because you've said before you're an introvert and sometimes that's not natural for everyone just to verbally invite somebody that they just met that day. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: I think I'm curious. I'm curious about people and I genuinely want to know people. So being an introvert, I like to have really good conversations with people. [00:11:46] I know extroverts could have a big loud party and it just be the best thing ever. 
 
Well, if I don't walk away with having a really good conversation with at least a couple people that night, it doesn't feel like how I want to experience the table with people. I think we each bring our own personality to the table (no pun intended) but I think I'm curious. I think that's the thing that doesn't hold me back. 
 
God has really given me peace about having all different kinds of people in my home, people that might not share the same faith or race or sexual orientation or all the things that make us different. And that they are literally my neighbors in my neighborhood and people in my community. 
 
I feel like we all have something to learn from each other. And I think through relationship as Christians, we get the opportunities to share what's made a difference in our life and how the Lord has changed our life. [00:12:49] I think a table is a really real way to do that. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think it's so admirable, the way that you do it. I am curious, because you're so good at initiating and inviting and hosting, do you get invited back other places? And do you ever feel left out if people don't include you? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: You know, Laura, I honestly don't even think about it. I have had that question asked before because I think that's a natural thing that we feel like if we give, there's a take, we get paybacks. If someone invites us, then we should invite them and that sort of thing. I don't know. 
 
I think I gave up keeping score a long time and that would be my advice for others to do. If God's called you to be a people gatherer, that's what he's called you to do. He might bless you in another way with another friend that has a gift and might show up and do something for you. But I don't have those expectations. Is it a blast when I get invited to other people's homes? Absolutely. [00:13:53] 
 
I don't know if it's a Dallas thing, maybe you see this more in the Midwest, but I am seeing less and less people actually have people to their homes. You know, our parents' age and our grandparents' age, they really grew up in a culture where the table was really important and having people in our homes was a real value. 
 
I think we have added so much into our daily lives now that oftentimes... I find it as a rarity to have people in our homes. I don't know if Pinterest has just ruined us or if we just have expectations that our homes have to be perfect before we have people in it. I want to encourage people just to push back towards that. 
 
Honestly, if you think about going over to someone's home, you're not looking at their baseboards. You're not looking to see if they have cobwebs in their chandelier or whatever. You're there to engage with the people right in front of you. And that's the same when people come to your home as well. [00:14:57] 
 
I like to encourage that because I love to gather. I don't feel like I'm missing out if I don't get invited. Like I'm gathering with people so intentionally and so often that it is a real joy. And I don't feel like I've missed out on that just because that's who I am. And I know not everyone else is comfortable with that. 
 
I try to make, when we do gather, a real relaxed environment so maybe others would be encouraged to do that. But that's what I'm seeing. I would say I've done a pretty good job of that up until this year. This year I've been traveling more as my business has grown. 
 
I don't think I've shared, but we now build tables for other people. And that's what my business is called Neighbor's Table. I physically like to deliver the tables myself when we make them. And I travel the country now delivering tables. I get to have meals, the first meal with so many families around their new table. [00:15:55] I'm not so much gathering around my own table as much as I used to, but I'm getting to do that and kind of multiply out and just meeting some amazing families that are gathering around their table. 
 
So oftentimes my friends don't even know when I'm in town, so I have to wave at them when I get back and say, Okay, I'm back in town for a couple of days, let's get together. Sometimes it's just a cup of coffee somewhere. So there's seasons. You might have young moms listening right now and you know that your season looks different. I think I've kind of have a season right now. 
 
Laura Dugger: Your answers are so seasoned with grace, which I appreciate. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: I want to say thank you to today's sponsor, Zimmerman Builders. Zimmerman Builders is based out of Roanoke, Illinois and they've been operating for 25 years. Dennis Zimmerman and his team started with a bedroom remodeling project and they've grown to now building custom homes in Woodford, Tazewell, Peoria, and McLean counties. [00:16:57] 
 
They also specialize in interior room remodeling, such as kitchen and bath, as well as exterior projects like decks and outdoor rooms. Dennis actually did our personal kitchen remodel, and we couldn't be happier. Do you have a siding or roof project you'd like a quote on? They'd be happy to accommodate you in whatever home improvement project you're thinking about, whether it's window replacements or building your dream home. They also have experience in commercial renovations. 
 
And by listening to your ideas and expectations, they are dedicated to include their clients in every part of the decision-making and then provide their customers with top-notch craftsmanship, with an eye for detail in the completion of their project. 
 
Contact them today via their webpage at ZimmermanBuildersInc.com or through their Facebook page under Zimmerman Builders Inc. That's Z-I-M-M-E-R-M-A-N Builders I-N-C. Give Dennis a call today and let him put Zimmerman Builders' 25 years of experience to work for you. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:18:07] 
 
Laura Dugger: And if you're interested in sponsoring The Savvy Sauce, we would love to hear from you. Make sure you reach out to us. You can email us at info at thesavvysauce.com. 
 
You said you love this multiplying effect. So let's really boil it down to some practical things. If someone listening does want to open their home or their backyard and host, do you have any certain recipes that work best for a group? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: You know, the best recipe is one that someone else makes. And I am dead serious about that. To me, food is ancillary. It's like the extra layer to something that's already good. I want to encourage people, people is what gathering is about. And when you make your gathering about people, it doesn't matter if you're serving pizza you ordered from down the street. It doesn't matter if you rolled out your best beef tenderloin. It doesn't matter if you pulled off a garden recipe. It really doesn't matter. [00:19:10] I know that's surprising Laura. 
 
There's gonna be listeners that are really exceptional at cooking and actually the way that they honor their guests is to make a really incredible meal. But if you're not wired like that... and I would say I cook so I can gather, but I try not to worry a lot about the food. 
 
There's this magic word, three letters: Yes. So when someone says, Can I bring something, my encouragement is to always say yes. So if you like to create an environment and a menu and you've got something in mind, give them something specific. I'd love for you to bring a dessert that's chocolate or, you know, would you bring black beans for 18? It'll make sense when you get here. Things like that. 
 
As far as best recipe, that is my advice is let other people help you because you'll probably find that you'll gather more often when other people are helping. So that's my recipe tip. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great. And not an answer I was expecting. So that's really fun. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Right. [00:20:14]  
 
Laura Dugger: So if all these people are pitching in, I would also think that would help you maintain a budget. So can you give us a realistic budget for somebody who wants to start entertaining more? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yeah. I heard that a lot early on is, oh, I would have people over if I could just afford to feed 10 or 20 people. Honestly, you know how many people your home can accommodate and what that looks like. 
 
I'll tell you, after that first year of gathering 500, I wanted to prove that anyone could gather on any sort of budget. And that's truly where I want people to land, is like, what is your budget? Do you need to set something? 
 
So that second year that I gathered, I served another 500 people on just $75 a month. Now that first year I was spending probably three or four times that much on every meal. I was just loving the creative side and wanting to cook all these fabulous meals. 
 
But like I just shared like when people ask if they can bring something I truly say yes. And I ask them to bring something. So on that budget of just $75 a month, there would be some nights where I literally would just provide the ice on the table. [00:21:28] It could be something so easy as you provide the protein or the main dish and you have people bring sides or something like that. But it was so cute. 
 
The very last month of that year, I had a little Bible study group of older women send me a grocery gift card for $75. And they said, "finish strong, Sarah. We're cheering you on." So it's a discipline. And I think it's something to think about. 
 
Gathering doesn't always have to be for a full meal. So I've had an adult party here where it was pizza and popsicles one summer night. It was something very simple, and someone else brought something. I had a cheese board night where everyone brought something to put on the cheese board. 
 
I've got an 18-year-old outside Atlanta that's in our neighbor's table family. Her family has a table and she has cereal night with all of her friends and all they do is put boxes of cereal and milk out and they have cereal. So I think food is just kind of the thing that draws us because we all like to eat, but it could be popcorn and cokes one night too. I don't want people to get stuck on "what will I serve?". 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that permission to just think outside the box. Okay, so we've covered some of those practicals of finances and the food. What about different roles that people can play? Do you assign any roles to your guests? [00:22:48] 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: I'm really big about inviting people in to create the experience together. I think a lot of times as hosts, we think we have to do everything. I even admit that before we sit down, I like to go around and introduce people and tell them what I love about them before we even sit down. Everyone sits down confident then. 
 
One of the things I say, I said I want to invite you into this experience. Like we get to create what this evening looks like and what we want it to be. So offer a few suggestions just in general. Like, I'd love for us to be more listening than talking tonight. It kind of makes people think like, Oh, what does she mean by that? Well, really it means that I want to create a space for people to share, but also from a place of respect. 
 
You might think differently or you might be hearing something someone grew up in a different way than you and instead of thinking, Okay, what am I gonna say to combat this?, like what if we just left space for people to talk and you get to listen to them? 
 
One of the things we do is we eat family style. So I love the awkward passing of a tray and tongs as people are navigating things. I think doing things together like that. I say if you see water glasses low, feel free to jump up and fill water glasses. If you see us bring in dessert out of the kitchen, jump up and we'd love for you to help. Or if you want to clear plates and fill the dishwasher, we would love that. [00:24:19] 
 
And I will tell you, Laura, I don't remember the last time I filled my dishwasher. Everyone is in when you give them a little suggestion like that. A lot of times I'll even say, You know, I love celebrating at the table. And so at any point in the night you would like to give a toast, I would love for anyone to jump up and give a toast. There's been some nights where we've had eight or nine different toasts throughout the meal and it was so fun.
 
I think inviting people in and just kind of tossing it out like that. Here's something, would anyone like to say the blessing tonight? Or would anyone like to clear plates or whatever? Right now we're out of them but on our website, neighborstable.com, we've got these table tokens, and it's actually a set of ten tokens that have little jobs like that that I just share ideas that you can give. And you can give them away as people come or you can hide them under their plate and it's just a little wooden coin that gives people a suggestion of how they might be able to participate in the evening. But I think it's fun to invite people and be a part of everything. [00:25:23] 
 
Laura Dugger: I think that's so fun. And the table tokens would be good for any age. Anybody can participate. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Oh, man. Moms love it. They're like, my kids have never wanted to do something at the table. They'll try to trade their tokens before the meal because they didn't want to help with dishes or whatever. So I think it's been helpful in lots of different ways.
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, definitely. Well, do you have any other practical tips like that to share? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yeah, I think the biggest one is really thinking about who is around the table than what's on the table. I think that is not a natural thing for us women. Men might be better at this. I don't know. We're still kind of learning that as women, I feel like. 
 
I say make parties about people. That's my biggest suggestion. I love doing place cards. That's something simple that I can just cut index cards and fold them over and take a sharpie and write their name. I love being prayerful about where people sit. [00:26:24]
 
I might have a bunch of random people coming, but I also want to ask the Lord, who would you want to sit by who and who might you place in each other's lives this night that might need a connection or they might need someone that sits by them that's good with conversation if they're a little more shy or something like that.
 
So place cards. I think it's something simple. And it also kind of takes away that, oh gosh, I'm new here. Where am I going to sit that junior high walk into a cafeteria tray feeling, you know? That's what I say. I said, I've been preparing a place for you. I kind of speak words that Jesus might for us. Like, I've been preparing a place today, I've been thinking about you all day and I'm so excited each of you are here and you'll find your name at the table. So it's something that simple and it kind of takes the pressure off of who am I going to connect with and who am I going to sit with. 
 
By introducing people ahead of time it also gives them a little something to get started on as far as conversation goes. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love all of that. Like you said, such simple ways, but it can be so powerful to the guest. [00:27:32] 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: So through all of your conversations with people around Neighbor's Table then, do you hear any type of common thread for excuses why some people say that they can't toast? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: You know, I think the things I hear are, my house isn't big enough, my house isn't clean, I'm not good at cooking, I'm kind of shy, I don't know if I can have people in my home. I hear a lot. Like maybe their partner is maybe an introvert and they're an extrovert and they're not sure if they'll want to have guests over or things like that. 
 
I think all of those things are valid concerns and I think probably all of those have crossed all of our minds at some point. But I will tell you, after my experience of gathering, I struggled with some of those things early on. I remember having a gathering over Mother's Day, and I'd invited some of my friends and their moms to my table. I was nervous to host some of these moms. They are kind of socialites in Dallas and are used to fine china and pretty homes. [00:28:41] 
 
I started worrying like, Oh my gosh, we're sitting at my rustic backyard table and there's the chain link fence behind them and we drink out of mason jars. I started having all these concerns that a lot of us have and a good friend of mine looked at me and she said, "Sarah, what if you create an experience so different from what they have ever experienced in these other parties or these other homes." And she goes, "I dare you to serve pizza that night."
 
And Laura, I thought she was crazy. I was like, "I cannot serve pizza to socialites." She goes, "I dare you." You know what? I served pizza that night. And the way that I set it up, I said, remember when we were little girls, and we would sit around the pizza box, and we would tell stories, and we would laugh. I want us to be little girls again. So I set the scene. Every single one of those women ate pizza that night. 
 
At one point, one lady was like, I feel like I'm in Napa Valley. And I was like, maybe Napa Alley because my alleyway is right there. It was hilarious. These women had the best time. [00:29:46] And it wasn't something I've gotten hung up on that my house isn't nice enough or I'm not going to be able to even make a nice enough meal or serve, you know, the best something. I just kind of gave that up. I think I just needed that urge from a friend that says, don't worry about it. That's really not what matters. So it was a good lesson early on. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great. And maybe this conversation right now that somebody is hearing is that encouragement just to press on and know that the Lord is going to use this really to bless those people who are coming and hopefully to bless you as the host, too. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yes. I'm the first person that's been really changed by everyone that's walked down my driveway and has sat at my table. I feel like I'm living a different story because of all the little stories that have been added to this table. So it's good. I think we all have a lot to learn from each other. So I would cheer people on. Don't be afraid. Gather people. All the things don't matter as much as we think they do. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, so true. Did you know that we save some of our best content for our patrons? You can access these secret podcasts by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our "Patreon" tab. [00:31:02] For example, you can hear my exclusive interview with Alex Butchko, a Disney cast member who shares some business principles and life applications behind the magic and success of Disney. You can also hear bonus content from internationally known speaker Debbie Titus, along with many other experts. 
 
This is all available to you for a minimum of $5 per month. In addition to all these monthly bonus episodes, you will also have access to all of our free downloadable scripture cards, beautifully crafted by Angela at Jars of Grace. We hope you consider joining the club today. 
 
Are there any mishaps or dinner parties that have fallen flat that you've experienced before or learned from? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: You know, I feel like I'm always learning. I always joke with myself that if any time there's like a royal screw-up in the kitchen, there's always McDonald's and cheeseburgers down the street. I've yet to have to go run and get cheeseburgers. But it makes me feel comfortable knowing there's always a backup plan if I royally screw up. [00:32:07] 
 
We had a weather issue one Easter that is still in my nightmare of memories. We had 38 people here that day and a lot of them I didn't know. It looked cloudy, Laura, but I was like, Surely it's not going to rain on Easter. And it wasn't like I could just cancel it because it was Easter. I wanted to serve Easter brunch at my table. And literally, as we got our plates full of food, the clouds unleashed and people just ran. And I have a tiny house. There was no way 38 people were fitting in my home. So some people ran inside, some ran under the carport. It was just like this mad dash with our plates of food. 
 
We ended up having Easter brunch under the carport that day and we pulled tables over and it was quite a memory. I still remember some of the people that were there and the corn casserole that I sent home with one gentleman that just absolutely loved it. 
 
Sometimes the mishaps can become some of the best memories and oftentimes they're really out of our control. So that's my encouragement. [00:33:13] If there is some unruly thing that happens, it's easy to be flexible. It might not be easy to be flexible but I would say that's a good thing to choose when not everything is under your control. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that flexibility. Something else that strikes me, Sarah, is during that experience on Easter, people didn't run home. They still wanted to be together, so they don't even care if it's under a carport where they're gathering. I love that story. Do you have any other favorite stories or friendships that were birthed out of this whole movement for Neighbor's Table? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Oh man, I have a file cabinet full of stories. I feel like every night someone just wedges their way into my heart and each other's lives. And I think that's the coolest thing about connection and around the table. Like at the heart of all of us is connection. 
 
I had one Christmas, a neighbor reached out and Lee said in his email, like, "Sarah, my son and I's plans fell through for Christmas, and I know sometimes your table is the place where someone that doesn't have a place can come. I wonder if you're having an orphan Christmas this year." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, well yeah, now that you put it that way, we're for sure having an orphan Christmas, so come on, come join us." [00:34:35] 
 
But the cool thing was, I never told Lee that my table is a place for people that don't have a place. I love that somehow he gathered that about my table. He offered to bring the smoked turkey that year, and he and his son came over. A couple of weeks prior, I said, "Would it be okay if we opened our table on Christmas to other neighbors that might need a place on Christmas?" And he agreed, that would be great. I had nine gentlemen from my neighborhood come that day for lunch, and I had not met any of them except Lee and his son. 
 
And you know, people that are showing up to a stranger's home on Christmas, they needed a place. I still remember sitting down around this table, and I've got these five-foot-tall letters that spell love. L-O-V-E along my fence is like a ginormous reminder of what I wanted to do with my neighbors. And this guy, Russ, in the middle of a meal we're talking about nothing and he pointed over at those letters and I saw kind of these tears welling up in his eyes. and I looked at him across the table and he goes, "That's what it feels like here. It feels like love." [00:35:44] 
 
I think when we love Jesus and we become the light because He is the light in us, people are drawn to that. And if anything, people kind of go, what is different about this place? I know Sarah prayed before the meal, I know some of the conversations were a little different than I normally experience. I love that that is the first thing that kind of sparks people's interest. 
 
I have seen families from the west coast all the way over to the east coast literally love the people right next to them because they have a table and they know intentionally that is what they're doing.
 
There's this great guy in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Dane, and he was turning 30. And for his 30th birthday, he wanted a neighbor's table for his backyard. And Dane's been intentional for a long time about walking his neighborhood and asking people their names and saying, "Hey, I love to pray. Is there anything I can pray for you about?" And literally praying for his neighbors. 
 
And he said he wanted to have a table where he could bring people together and he and his wife could just love their neighbors. I got to share a meal like so many of the deliveries I get to do. [00:36:58] One of the first things that Dana and Anna wanted to do was share the Lord's Supper at that table. He invited the guests that were around his table that were good friends of his, and he invited them to offer the body and the blood to each other. 
 
And it was so cool, just to like every day, kind of casual way that we do that. And it was stuff like, "Hey, Jesus loves you and He died for you and He shed his blood for you. And this is for you, man. It was beautiful to see the way people use their own language to offer that to the person next to them. 
 
There's families that are just everyday families that are doing incredible things just because they're loving people, like inviting their sixth-grade class, their new boys that are to their classroom over for dinner and letting all the boys connect before the school year starts, or gathering people, the really creative people that I just love seeing that are just incredible. 
 
The themes that they come up with are crazy. And I'm just like, wow, God has made you so creative. [00:38:05] I saw an island one night where they had grass skirt people dancing and they had made this cabana over their table. And I was like, wow, that is incredible. But it's everyday people that are just crazy about others and want to actually love people. 
 
So there's been some beautiful guests at my table that have blessed me and our conversations and I've learned so much from them. There's been tender moments. I served sandwiches between a funeral and a burial for a 29-year-old one afternoon and just had a place for her friends to gather before they went to bury her. It was simple things like that. 
 
Sometimes you just reach out in a moment of empathy and say, "Hey, I'd love to gather people." We've celebrated weddings here. I've hosted a wedding rehearsal dinner for two people. One gentleman was from Ireland and he had been to my table before and he said, we would love to have a rehearsal dinner at your backyard. And I was like, oh my goodness. Laura, you should have heard these amazing Irish accents and giving toasts and just laughter and fun. [00:39:18] 
 
There's been so many moments of celebration too around the table. But it truly is the everyday moments of just saying, let's gather, let's connect. Let's slow down a bit. A lot of times I'll just say, you know, leave whatever you've experienced this day at the end of the driveway. And maybe what we can create together in the next couple of hours will be different and rich to end your day with. 
 
So I could go on and on and on with stories. There are some beautiful people serving people. There's people growing food in a garden for their neighborhood and taking food to the elderly people and their tables in their neighborhood park and that's where they gather with people. There's story after story of families that want to be intentional about watching their grandkids grow up around the table. And so they have a big family and that's what they wanted their table for is to love and invest in their own family. 
 
I always encourage people to start with the people closest to you, whether that's your family or the people right next door to you, and go from there. [00:40:27] It's an adventure when you say yes to this. 
 
Laura Dugger: It sounds like an adventure. These stories are amazing. And I'm just blown away by all of the opportunities and the relationships that you've been introduced to just through hosting. It's incredible. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: I also love that you said you try and personally deliver these tables and then share a meal. So, if you've piqued someone's interest and they want to find out how they can purchase their own table, can you share where they could find you online? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Yeah. I'm on social media at Neighbor's Table. We have a website, neighborstable.com. Even on our website, we've got a little thing you can click on that says "Get Started". And it kind of tells our story, which a lot of it I've shared here today. But there's actually a page called "Tables" and you can look at the measurements. We kind of have a standard size of a table for 10 but if you've got a smaller space or want us to custom that, we do that for free as well. [00:41:30] So if you've got a smaller patio and you need a little one more narrow or a little shorter, we'd love to do that. 
 
There's an inquiry form on our website. We don't have a click-to-purchase kind of thing, because it's really all about people. So we want to hear from you if you're interested, and we'll be sure to give you all the details and then arrange a time for delivery. We always ask for a picture of the family, which is something so personal, and it's an optional thing. But we love seeing who we're building for. We say it's made with love. Hopefully, it's delivered with love. I just feel like I'm meeting the very, very best people in the country as I travel. 
 
So I feel like they're made like me, which is amazing thing to just look at people and actually learn from others. And I'm so blown away by some people. I am always in the learning posture of taking notes from the people I meet. 
 
So my dream is to have our tables in every state by 2020, Laura. We're in 30 states so far, which is crazy. I would have never guessed anyone outside my own neighborhood would know about Neighbor's Table. So we are eager to spread the love literally around the country. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, we will do our part to share this good news and we'll link to all those in the show notes. I would love to hear what is your vision from here? 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: I just want to see more people loving people around them. And I think when we do that, we really honor God and we love God in the meantime. Because God as the creator has created every single human being, even the crazy neighbor down the street that might be a lot different than us. 
 
There's something that we take a different posture when we open our home or we open our table to others. There's a vulnerability to love. There's a vulnerability inviting people in. But what I have learned is there is blessings tenfold when we do that. So this sounds so idealist, but I just want to see more love in the world. 
 
I had an executive ask me that a couple months ago. He's like, Sarah, what is really the goal at Neighbor's Table? And I was like, I don't know. I just want to see people love each other. I want to see more connection. I don't know if you can tell, we could use a lot more of that in our world today. If I can be a small cheerleader with little pom-poms to cheer people on to do that, and if they need a table and need a place to kind of call their home base, Dad and I would just love and be so tickled to provide a table for them. [00:44:08]
 
Laura Dugger: I think that's a very worthwhile vision. I love to ask just one same question every episode. Our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge or insight. We just want to know your most beneficial practical habits. So as my final question for you today, Sarah, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Savvy sauce. I love that. It's a great name. I think this is something really practical and I cannot get it out of my head. Years ago, I heard the motto at Ritz Carlton, so just top-of-the-line hotel and the way that they serve people. Their motto is, we are ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. And I have not forgotten that. Because I think when we think about ourselves as being the kind of person that loves God would honor the people that are around us. I love that quote. So we are ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. [00:45:07] 
 
And maybe something savvy as far as just a fun little quip is, always accept a mint when it's offered to you. I think that's a good word of advice, and we'll keep us savvy on our toes. When someone offers, we should always take one. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. Those are wonderful savvy tips. Sarah, you're just so fun to spend time with. So thank you for using your God-given gifts to love others and ultimately to serve God. I really appreciate the inspiration that you've provided for all of us today. So thanks for being my guest. 
 
Sarah Harmeyer: Oh, well, thanks for having me. Thanks for using your gifts and bringing conversations to people and getting us all to think about things maybe that aren't always coming to our mind, but something that we could all use a little guidance for. So I am still on the pathway of learning myself, so we can all learn together. And thanks, Laura, for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, it's been my pleasure. [00:46:06] 
 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:47:11] 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:48:13] 
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. [00:49:16] You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

46 Encouragement and Inspiration for your Motherhood Journey with Anjuli Paschall

46. Encouragement and Inspiration for your Motherhood Journey with Anjuli Paschall
 
**Transcription Below**
 
“It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace.” Hebrews 13:9 (middle) NIV
 
Anjuli Passchall is a Jesus-follower, Pastor’s wife, and mother to 5. She has used her platform on Instagram for good: she launched The Moms We Love Club in 2018 where the mission is to use social medial to love moms who are struggling through sharing, praying, and raising funds. You can find out more at themomsweloveclub.com. 
 
The Moms We Love Club Website
Connect with Anjuli on Instagram: @themomsweloveclub and @anjulipaschall
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian Schools
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Anjuli Paschall is our guest today, and her heart for others is obvious. She had thousands of followers on Instagram, so she used that platform for good. Today you're going to find out more about the Moms We Love Club that she launched on social media, which has gained national attention and has impacted so many lives. 
 
You can also expect to hear her encouragement of what life looks like when we apply biblical principles, such as confessing our sins one to another. Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Anjuli. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Hi, it's great to be here, Laura. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, you are known all over Instagram, but for any of our listeners who don't yet know you, can you just give us a glimpse of your current life? [00:01:25] 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Yes, I can try. It's a little bit of a whirlwind, but I am located and living and enjoying life in Southern California in San Diego, with my husband, who's a local pastor here at a church, and my five kids. I have my oldest, who is 11, and then a 9-year-old, almost 7-year-old, a 4-year-old, and a 1-year-old. And we are kind of in the middle of a renovation, tearing down walls, building new walls, extending part of our house. But in the chaos and the crazy, we are trying our hardest and best to stay awake to the love of God. I think it's kind of my heart and my goal and my desire is, even in the crazy, that we don't lose ourselves. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, you seem to just have an incredible gift of encouraging women, especially through your raw and refreshingly vulnerable Instagram posts. It seems that you love being a mom, yet it maybe looked a little bit different from what you expected. So will you just share more about your motherhood journey and what lessons God's been teaching you? [00:02:40] 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Wow. You know, I think as little girls, we imagine life and we dream life up in our heads, you know, what it's going to look like. And I think ever since I was young, I always wanted to be a mom. Then I think actually having kids really rocked my world in a good and beautiful and hard, hard way. 
 
I think the hardest part about motherhood for me has been trying to live honestly in a world where I think there's a lot of pressure to have it all together or to absolutely love every moment of motherhood. The truth is when I had my first child, I did not love every single minute of motherhood. Not only did I just feel like a wreck, but then on top of feeling like a wreck, I felt like a guilty wreck because wait, What's wrong with me? I'm supposed to be taking pictures of every moment and just creating a lovely baby book and soaking up moments outside on a blanket. And I wasn't. [00:03:51] 
 
I was just really lonely and really hurting and really struggling and I didn't know why. I thought something was really wrong with me until I actually started talking about it and I realized, wow, a lot of people actually feel the same way I do. So it really has been a journey. It has been a journey, journey, journey. Can I say that in capital bold black letters? Because who I am, and who I am as a mother, and who I am as a wife... I think it really was an identity crisis that, even 11 years later, I'm still unfolding. 
 
Laura Dugger: Do you feel like there was any specific encouragement given to you along the way that made things seem a little bit easier or better? 
 
Anjuli Paschall: You know what? I heard this amazing quote, and actually, I've been thinking about it a lot recently, and I wish I could credit somebody out there for this quote, but the one quote that has kind of sustained me a lot is, it's not hard because you're failing, it's hard because it's hard. I think that has just been a little bit of a lifeboat for me because every time, you know, I'm like juggling two kids in a public bathroom and wanting to hide in my pantry and lock the door and on the side of the road crying because I don't know how to drive with a baby who's crying and or kids who are fighting the backseat, it's kind of like, Wait, I'm not failing. What I'm doing, it's just really hard. 
 
And it's okay that life is hard. It's not a reflection of my ability or my skill or my worth. It's just this is what God has given me to carry. And it comes with really hard days and really hard moments. [00:05:51] 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that you're just normalizing the tricky part for all of the parents out there. That sibling fights and crying and feelings of guilt, that that is all part of it. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: I think the fantasy of motherhood and the reality of motherhood, that's the shock right there. And don't get me wrong, there are magical moments, certainly, when there's butterflies, and the kids are just playing lovely, and you're eating popsicles, and it's just perfect, you know what I mean? There's lemonade, just all those things are beautiful. But I think there's also the reality that these kids are human and they have brokenness just like I do and it is my honor and pleasure and burden that I get to unwrap their hearts and help them process their humanness and their brokenness. 
 
So the fracture between fantasy and reality, that is a tricky thing and takes a long time to adjust to. And just because every moment of motherhood isn't like a musical and isn't like a fantasy, it doesn't mean that you're a bad mom. And it doesn't mean you have to love every moment of your life. I think that's part of the unraveling process is, oh yeah, raising little humans with messy hearts like mine, that's a tricky balancing act every second of the day. [00:07:24] 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes, definitely. Do you have a few favorite, maybe practical ways that you encourage other moms? 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Yeah. I think back to when I was having my first and second children. And I think what I just appreciated so much from other moms who are maybe a little bit ahead of me is a simple word of encouragement. Like, you're doing okay. It's going to be all right. It's okay to cry. It's okay to talk about how you really feel. 
 
I think part of that is really finding safe people. Some of the best encouragement I got when I was a young mom was really to find a safe person. Find people who you can trust and who are trustworthy. People who will let you cry, people who will watch your children last minute, people who will let you dump your emotions and feelings on. [00:08:33] 
 
I think that is a really beautiful thing to have a friend you can lean on who's really going through what you're going through. And with that, I think there's some amazing resources out there right now. One is local mops groups or moms groups, or most churches have a mom connection group that you can get plugged into. I know it's scary and risky and hard to get out of the house but to find support systems that can [inaudible 00:09:01] you up and carry you through are huge.
 
I think there's other ways if you just can't get out of the house. I think a lot of us lean and look towards social media right now. There's ways you can use social media for good and ways that it can totally wreck you. I would just encourage moms to find people you connect with and trust on social media and women who speak truth and honesty and hope into the middle of your story who don't make you feel bad about not having a perfect kitchen or a pantry that's a wreck or socks that are mismatched. [00:09:41] 
 
But again, I think it's really important to find safe people no matter what it costs. So make that a priority. That's how I would encourage moms. 
 
Laura Dugger: You are one of those safe people and you have used your platform on Instagram for so much good. On your personal page, I'm just going to read one of your recent quotes. It says, "I promise you'll read again. I promise you'll share and pluck your eyebrows and cook a delicious meal again. But if today isn't that day, believe what you offer God and others is enough. You are a treasure. Those who love you understand. They are cheering you on and are forever standing beside you. No guilt, shame, or try harder. You being you, messy and all is an absolute honor to behold." I just want to say thank you for being that safe person. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Thanks.
 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: This sponsor is particularly special to our editor, Natalie, because this is the school where her husband teaches and her children attend. Peoria Christian School, grades pre-K through 12, offers a Christ-centered, award-winning education for students. They believe eternity matters and so they want to share the importance of knowing the Lord personally. [00:11:07] 
 
PCS supports the Christian home and church by teaching from a biblical worldview. Their caring faculty and staff infuses God's truths through every area of the day, not just in daily Bible classes or in weekly chapels. Peoria Christian students engage in active learning through STEAM, bring your own device in high school, and so much more. 
 
The Peoria Christian Elementary School was named a 2017 National Blue Ribbon School of Excellence, and the high school was named a 2018 National Blue Ribbon Exemplary High Performing School. PCS students grow in every aspect through their safe environment as teachers share their faith throughout the day. It is another place where your student hears and sees how to live with a Christ-like attitude and develop biblically-based character. 
 
The students are academically challenged and spiritually equipped for the next phase of life as lifelong learners. Peoria Christian School is raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org and schedule a campus tour today. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:12:12] 
 
Laura Dugger: And on a little bit lighter note, as a mom of five, do you have any particular mom hacks that you would recommend? 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Oh my goodness. Yes, I hack everything. Everything is a hack. I think that is the only way I could survive. One of my biggest ones, I never thought I would do this before I had kids, but I am a big fan of drive-thru. I wish I could cook every single meal and make it beautiful, but I'm not and I won't and I can't. So I love drive-thru. It is a way that all my kids are buckled in and actually will eat a meal. And I think that has saved my life more often than not. 
 
I joke about this but like I don't match socks. I don't fold clothes that go in the drawer. It's just in there and when you're ready to wear it you take it out and it might be wrinkles, but that's life.
 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And I've even seen you post this before when you're at home, one of your ideas that we've tried to implement is just a simple meat and cheese tray for lunch where you put some fruit on and kids all grab what they want. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Oh, I just did it. It's brilliant. If you always have little scraps of something in your pantry or in your fridge or in your freezer that there's like five bites left and you don't know what to do with it, so throw it on a board and all of a sudden it's lunch. It's amazing. [00:13:46] 
 
Laura Dugger: And for some reason that presentation is more appealing to kids as well, so I thought that was a great hack. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Right? It feels so communal. I love it. 
 
Laura Dugger: You've also launched an Instagram movement called the Moms We Love Club, and it's so amazing. I would just love to hear more of the backstory. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Yeah, I could cry just talking about it. It's one of those nudges, if you've ever had, you know, God just put something on your heart and you try and shake it off and you can't, you know? I totally believe in God's nudges. That He's always putting on our hearts people to pray for, to text, to buy dinner for, to love on. The Moms We Love Club is something I could not sleep about because it was so impressed on my heart that I needed to do this. 
 
I think you have to be cold-hearted to not have empathy for moms going through long-term suffering. There is a mom, if I'm looking out my window right now, we kind of live up on a hill and I can look down over our city and there's a mom right now that lives down there whose name is Lindsey. [00:14:58]
 
I've never met Lindsey, but we have a lot of mutual friends and she suffers from chronic migrainosis, which if you've ever had even a headache, it's debilitating, but let alone a migraine, you can't get out of bed. So Lindsey has suffered from chronic migrainosis for six years. 
 
So for six years, she's had a migraine and so it's incurable. You can't fix it. And just to think right now this is her life is a dark, dark room. And she has a son and she can't leave, she can't get up. Her husband carries her to the bathroom, to the shower, to feed, to help her eat. And I just couldn't sleep because it's kind of a living hell. When she posts, when she can, it's about Jesus and about grace and about love. 
 
So I just got thinking, like, how can we love her who's in a very dark place? I think any mom going through long-term suffering, there's this idea that in the beginning, everyone rallies, everyone supports you, everyone shows up. [00:16:04] But after time, when the illness continues, when the pain doesn't go away, when the grief is still debilitating, people slowly start to trickle away. 
 
And I think anyone who's been through suffering would agree that this happens. And so my thought was, what if we can remind moms who are going through such pain that they're not forgotten, that they're loved, and they're remembered, and that we're caring them. 
 
So part of this was starting an Instagram feed called the Moms We Love Club, where on the same day of every month, everyone posts the same picture. So imagine scrolling through your feed, and you see the same picture of the same mom over and over and over again. That just piques your interest and you move towards it and you move towards her and you follow her story and you fall in love with her, really, her compassion and her grace and her beauty and her perseverance. So thus was birthed the Moms We Love Club. [00:17:07] 
 
We started in February of 2018 and since then we've been able to support and love one mom a month. And we've been able to raise over $150,000 by simply posting a picture on social media. And it, one, brings awareness to the condition that they're suffering with, their husband's suffering with, or their children have. It brings prayer to them and it brings financial support. And hopefully, my greatest, greatest hope is that mom would know that she's loved and not forgotten. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is incredible to hear that the Lord put this vision on your heart, and you were obedient to it, and that it's already changing people's lives. 
 
Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new "Resources" tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called "Resources". There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. 
 
When you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce. We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. [00:18:26] We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned. 
 
Are there any other surprising stories or things that have occurred as the result of launching the Moms We Love Club?
 
Anjuli Paschall: I have so many stories. Each mom changes me. Each mom impacts my life. What they go through in a single day blows my mind. Some of these moms have two kids with extremely rare disabilities or fatal diseases or an incurable cancer. So to even get in the car to go to Target takes an extreme amount of work. For me to go to Target, it takes like five minutes and I still complain sometimes. 
 
I think one story is mom Stacy, her son Nathan was diagnosed with Batten disease. He will die from Batten disease. It's a slow degenerative disease. And she was in a really dark place when we did this campaign for her. [00:19:32] She emailed me, when the campaign was done, just saying how close she was to giving up on her faith in God, how close she was to just giving herself to depression and the darkness that comes with raising a son who's going to die. 
 
And since we've been able to do this campaign for her, not only was social media rallying around her, but then her community, again, who had kind of forgotten about her, rebirthed and rallied around her and supported her. Actually, a local contractor reached out to her and offered to renovate a room in their house for free. Because Nathan was having so many seizures, they needed a really specifically designed room that could hold the pain and symptoms and seizures that he was having. 
 
So I think it was just God used it like an arrow to her heart as a way to remind her that she's loved and not forgotten. That story's really close to my heart. [00:20:38] 
 
Laura Dugger: And that one's so powerful because you see so many different ways that the body of Christ was used and mobilized to each do their part.
 
Anjuli Paschall: Absolutely, yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: Another one that I think of is Lori, who I believe was one of the first moms that you featured. Can you share her story with us? 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Wow. Lori, Mom to five boys. When her youngest son was born, her oldest son was seven. So five boys under the age of seven. The youngest boys, they're less than a year apart. This mom is absolutely incredible. Her husband was in a biking accident, it was a hit and run, and he's completely paralyzed from the neck down and a lot of brain damage. Her oldest son was seven and her youngest son was, I think, eight weeks old. 
 
When I wanted to do the campaign for Lori, part of the campaign is really getting a picture that when people see it on social media, they stop scrolling. [00:21:50] And when Lori sent me the pictures that were taken of her five boys and her husband, I just wept. Because you cannot see these pictures and these images of this mom and what she goes through without just sobbing. Because this incredible superwoman, Lori, cares for her five boys and her husband, who is disabled, mentally disabled, and physically disabled, and yet she strives and she perseveres and she believes and she does not give up on her husband's healing for a second. 
 
This image went viral. It was on the news. It was on People Magazine. I mean, it was insane how many times people posted and how much people donated, and how many hearts cracked wide open for Lori and her boys. And so to see social media and to see even political and public figures post her picture was a beautiful thing.
 
When I got to meet her, we both just cried because it was such a powerful experience, inspiring, really, for so many people who have difficult lives or regular lives to keep going and not give up. Not only that, but find gratitude and grace in the midst of a really difficult situation. 
 
Laura Dugger: That story is so powerful, just like all of them that you share. I've been curious, how do you meet each of these moms that you feature? 
 
Anjuli Paschall: So a lot of times what happens is really God just brings them on at the right time. We have a process online where you can submit and share about a mom you might know who is going through long-term suffering. Like two or three other moms that we just pray through each application. [00:23:58] 
 
The Moms We Love Club never has to stop and so the months are endless. So we kind of look at each mom and the ones that seem like they need the most care and most reminder of love, we try and support them. So we have moms set up for the next several months. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and if anybody's listening and they want to get involved or they want to connect with you, what's the best way they could reach out or follow you? 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Oh, that'd be great. Well, one, follow the Moms We Love Club. Then we have a blog, themomsweloveclub.com, and on there you can find an application, I think it's like six questions, where you can share your mom's story. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's perfect because we're going to link to all of this in the show notes in case anybody wants to connect with you further. I have one final question that I like to ask every guest. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy means practical. So we would all love to hear, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Anjuli Paschall: Savvy sauce. I love that. So I might have three, if that's okay. Maybe four. But for sure, every morning I have a cup of tea and every morning I light a candle. For me, one, I just love the flicker of lights. I think when I light that candle, that is setting my heart. That is peace, that is a reminder to breathe, a reminder to pray. [00:25:35] 
 
It just kind of starts my day lighting that candle. It usually is lit most of the day when I'm home. And every time I just walk by it, I just remind myself to breathe, take a deep breath. Then I reheat my tea like a million times, but I always have a cup of hot tea. 
 
Then a real practical thing that has really helped me and is really hard, but is really good, is confession. And I mean that in confession and prayer. I mean that as confession to my husband and confession to people around me. I don't mean that just like, here are all my terrible, horrible sins or things that I'm doing wrong. I think confession is like, this is my heart and this is where I'm at. And it's a very vulnerable and hard thing to do to open up and to share the truth in my heart, but it is the best, most healing thing I can do every day. [00:26:38] 
 
Sometimes I do that on social media, you know. Like this is where I'm at. This is what's going on. But I think more than anything I desire an honest and real and true relationship with God and other people and I think the real way that happens is through vulnerability. That is part of my savvy sauce, even though it kind of makes my heart quiver and shake. That's what I lean into when I want to grow, when I want to really connect with people is through vulnerability. 
 
Laura Dugger: And you do that so well. It's just peaceful to get to spend time with you. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Thank you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes, I mean that. It was such a joy to get a few moments with you. So thanks for being a guest with us today. 
 
Anjuli Paschall: Such a joy. Thank you. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:27:38] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:28:40] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:29:48] 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
 

45 Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack

*DISCLAIMER* This message contains some adult themes and is not intended for little ears
 
45. Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack
 
**Transcription Below**
 
John 10:14 (NIV) “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"
 
Lauren Dack is a Jesus follower, wife to “a sexy accountant," Mommy to 2 wild and crazy boys, counselor, writer, small group leader, and friend! She’s a lover of people, nature, coffee, dessert, Netflix, books, and laughing. Lauren loves helping people feel good about who God made them to be and partnering with them in their journey to healthier, more joyful lives!
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Lauren’s Website 
Lauren’s Blog
Schedule a Session with Lauren Here 
Ian Morgan Cron’s Podcast
Book: The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
Jen Hatmaker’s interview with Ian Morgan Cron
Emotional feeling word list
Emotional feeling word list with faces
When I Feel Sad by Cornelia Maude Spelman 
When I Feel Angry by Cornelia Maude Spelman
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sexual Wholeness
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Also, check out our Patreon Page to find out how to gain access to additional podcasts and freebies!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
 
As a teacher or counselor, have you ever wished you could get more training on healthy sexuality or to have better skills in helping people deal with the sexual part of their lives? Sexual Wholeness is a Christian teaching organization desiring to help you accomplish this goal through classes and helpful resources. Visit them online at sexualwholeness.com. 
 
Lauren Dack and I were classmates at Richmont Graduate University. She has always been kind and refreshingly honest, and she models well how to love others. She's a marriage and family therapist, and she is married with two sons. 
 
Today she's going to cover topics related to healthy marital relationships and parenting. I hope you learn something new from our time together. [00:01:18] 
 
Hey, Lauren. 
 
Lauren Dack: Hi, Laura. 
 
Laura Dugger: I'm so excited to have you here with us today. Can you just start by telling listeners a little bit about your background? 
 
Lauren Dack: Sure. My name is Lauren Dack, and I am a therapist, a mommy, a wife, a writer, which I am kind of putting air quotes around the writer part. I want to be a writer. Let's see. I've been married for ten years last Thursday, so it's been quite a journey. 
 
I started my internship right after my honeymoon, so I've been counseling for as long as I've been married. I specialize in marriage and family therapy with Christian sex therapy added in there. I just wanted to take more classes in grad school, I guess. That's been a really helpful addition to working with couples is being able to have an understanding about sex, since that tends to be one of the big issues that couples present with. [00:02:18] 
 
Let's see. I've got a cat. Her name is Penny. We're about to get a dog. I'm super excited about that. I have two really handsome kids, Caleb and Mason. Caleb is six and he has autism, and Mason is four, and he has got a big personality. Or they both do. And they're both great kids. 
 
Laura Dugger: As a counselor, you care a lot about emotional intelligence, and you believe that it's connected to a healthy sex life. Can you first define emotional intelligence for us? 
 
Lauren Dack: Emotional intelligence is just the ability to identify and express your emotion with control and empathy. So being able to figure out what you're feeling and name it and then being able to express that emotion in an appropriate way. 
 
So when we don't know how to do that, we tend to, first of all, not know why we're acting the way that we're acting. Maybe we're acting out or we're drinking too much or shopping too much or whatever it is to try and avoid some emotion that we may not have even recognized within ourselves. We just know we don't feel good, right? And we want to feel better. 
 
So I really believe that emotional intelligence is not just great for a sex life but for anything relational, whether that be our career, whether that be our marriage, or parenting. [00:03:36] Being able to relate to other people and understand emotions that are motivating you is incredibly important in fact. 
 
There's been research that says that emotional intelligence is a much greater indicator of success than IQ, which I just so agree with. 
 
Laura Dugger: You define that so well, and it, like you said, affects so many parts of our lives. With your background, we're going to dive in a little bit further. How do you see it as being connected to a healthy sex life? 
 
Lauren Dack: The sex life piece of it is, as believers, we believe that sex is not just physical, right? I mean, we believe that God created it to be a connection of our bodies, yes, but also our emotions, our souls, and spiritually, right? So it's a mind, body, and soul, three-dimensional sexuality, and it's very holistic. It's not just about our bodies joining together. 
 
When you don't know yourself, when you don't really understand your emotions, you're unable to have intimacy in the way that it was made to be. If intimacy is a deep knowing of someone, right, whether that be emotional or physical. You've got to know yourself first in order to share that with someone else. [00:04:50] So I think without emotional intelligence, we're really missing a key aspect of sex, of good sex. 
 
Laura Dugger: Okay, that sounds great. And we would love to grow in that area. So how do we grow in emotional intelligence? 
 
Lauren Dack: So many ways one simple way is I have clients just if they have a calendar or have them get a little notebook and just to jot down or put in their notes even in their phone. When they recognize something within themselves, to take a minute, or seconds really, and just label it. 
 
This requires just getting a bigger vocabulary for our feelings sometimes. You can look-up online an emotion word list or you can get one of those cheesy face emotion things where it's got all the smiley faces with the different feelings. But you can also just get a list online and do that, start there. [00:05:46] 
 
Another great way to grow in your emotional intelligence is to see a counselor. That's where a lot of my growth came from, was my own personal counseling. Recently, I've discovered the Enneagram, and I highly recommend the Enneagram if you want to know yourself. 
 
The Enneagram is really just this... it's a personality typology, but it's way deeper than that, than Myers-Briggs or some of the other personality tests. It goes into the heart of your motivations, right? So the Enneagram teaches us what we do when we're not as healthy, but it also shows us who we can be when we're in our healthiest place. 
 
It's such a well-rounded holistic test that you can take, although Ian Morgan Crone, who's one of the leading Enneagram teachers, says really you should just learn more about all the types before you take the test. And I highly recommend The Road Back to You is his book. 
 
He also has a podcast called Typology, and he just did an interview with Jen Hatmaker on For the Love podcast. So he gives a better overview than I could give about the Enneagram if anybody's interested in that. [00:06:56] 
 
Laura Dugger: So as you're learning about the Enneagram, can you tell us maybe what your number is and what that means? 
 
Lauren Dack: Absolutely. I am two, which means the helper. So first of all, when you take the test, the real test, they'll give you a big book when they send you your results that tell you a lot about your type. But I love Ian's description in The Road Back to You about my type. And when I was reading about when I'm not healthy, it was embarrassing because it was so accurate. 
 
Helpers are people who anticipate the needs of other people really well and who kind of instinctively know what someone needs without having to necessarily ask them. Helpers are the people who are usually the first to volunteer or to bring soup or whatever else. Although that's not always true. That's a gross generalization. [00:07:58] 
 
So, the Enneagram, I'm still a beginner at this and I'm still learning so much about it. It really is a process. So you have to kind of be in a place where you're looking to learn. I learned things about myself that I knew, but it was fascinating to realize that I am not the only person who has this type. Because I think so often we feel a little bit misunderstood and we feel sometimes lonely and that no one is experiencing the world quite in the way that we are. Even though that is true on some level, it also isn't as true as I think we feel it is inside ourselves. 
 
So it was really cool to realize that we all fall into categories of these nine types and that we all exhibit things from all nine types, but that we have one that we really kind of lean on that motivates our behavior. For me as a two, what motivates my behavior is wanting to be loved. And that's rooted in a sense of abandonment and childhood. [00:09:05] 
 
So to read that in a book was like, what? How do you know my life? It was so weird, but it's so true for me. That what motivates my behavior is a fear of abandonment. So when I'm in an unhealthy place that looks like codependency, feels uncomfortable to the people around me, when I'm in a healthy place I'm naming my emotions, I'm sharing with other people and I'm not afraid of rejection and being myself and expressing that I too have needs, not just meeting the other people's needs, but that I also have needs and being comfortable in that. So when I'm healthy, that's what I'm doing. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so well said. And I feel like you gave us so many incredible resources there or next steps. We will link to all of this in our show notes if you want to do any further study on yourself and the Enneagram and the emotional words list as well. 
 
We will dive further into emotional intelligence in a moment, but first, a lot of our listeners may currently be pregnant or nursing, and I just feel like it's a disservice not to pick your brain further here. So what are some helpful suggestions for the couple? [00:10:20] 
 
Lauren Dack: Well, first of all, it's so normal for this to be a difficult time when it comes to intimacy. Your body is going through such tremendous changes when you're pregnant. Granted when I was pregnant I wanted to have sex more. It was very, very different after I had the kids. 
 
But everybody's different, right? Some women, when they're pregnant, they lose their sex drive. Some women's sex drive increases, but because they're feeling uncomfortable, they're not sleeping as well, they don't like how their body is changing. 
 
After you have kids, your hormones do some pretty crazy things, especially when you're breastfeeding. When you're breastfeeding, your estrogen levels drop significantly. Estrogen is responsible for the stuff that makes us feminine, right? And it's the stuff that makes our vaginal walls be elastic and helps them become moist. 
 
So when we have lower levels of estrogen, we tend to experience discomfort during sex because our bodies are not doing what they're usually doing. So you can be drier and it can be uncomfortable. And for that, I recommend a silicone-based lubrication. [00:11:30] My favorite is just called Wet and you can order it on Amazon. I think it might even be Wet with an exclamation point.
 
Another thing that happens when you're breastfeeding with your hormones is that your prolactin is increased, which reduces your sexual desire, and your testosterone drops, which is connected to libido, both in women and men. 
 
So, we've got a lot going against us. First of all, I just want to normalize this season, and I really feel like it's important to educate ourselves and our husbands about what is happening to our bodies while we're breastfeeding, and why things are different, and so he can understand. But it doesn't have anything to do with him. 
 
Laura Dugger: And what are some conversations we could be having so that they do believe us? It's not that we're not attracted to them. 
 
Lauren Dack: Yes. Just share this podcast or show him some articles online that you found or have him hear from your gynecologist even. Come with you to one of your appointments. Just something so that he knows that you're not making excuses and it's nothing to do with him and your attractiveness to him. [00:12:37] 
 
But you probably will find that you're not as attracted to him. Not that he is less attractive, but just that you're so stinking tired that you're having a harder time seeing him in a sexual way because you're exhausted and your body is so your desire is down because of your hormones and also Might not be feeling sexy because of your own changes in your body. All that goes into it. 
 
Again, here comes emotional intelligence again. You're really taking the time to think about what's going on within you. Obviously, the physical stuff you can just tell him but the emotional stuff too about how you're feeling about being a mother, especially if it's for the first time and if you're feeling any insecurities or feeling like a failure or feeling lonely or maybe a little bit abandoned or jealous of him because he gets to go out and talk to adults or whatever it is that you're feeling, make sure that you figure it out and you talk to him about it so that he knows what's going on inside of you. [00:13:36] 
 
Something that I think is really important that we remember after we have kids or while we're pregnant and then, you know, while we're breastfeeding is to widen our definition of sex. I think we tend to have such a narrow view of what sex is and we think of sex as only being intercourse. But sex is so much more than that. 
 
You are expressing your sexuality in the way that you hold hands or basically the idea that sex begins in the morning time. It begins outside of the bedroom. And it's something that just includes an awareness of your husband as a man and his awareness of you as a woman and his expressing appreciation for who you are as a woman and vice versa, of course. 
 
So whether that be a thoughtful note or a text or a, wow, you look beautiful today, or I just love how well you are mothering our kids right now, and I've just never been more in love with you, or I just appreciate you staying up all night last night, I know you're exhausted and I love you. [00:14:47] 
 
You are having those moments and then you're enjoying things. If intercourse is painful or uncomfortable right now, even with the silicone lubrication, I don't recommend having sex when it hurts. And I know that your husband wouldn't want that either. We don't want to associate sex with a lot of negative things. 
 
So if you're having trouble with intercourse, I highly recommend that you do other sexual play and do what feels comfortable. And who knows, if you do enough of that, it may lead to more, but you can have it be open-ended with no expectations. 
 
Another thing I highly recommend for women is to think about a time, whether it be during the week, that they feel most open to sex. Women are what's called sex neutral. That doesn't mean that we don't enjoy sex. It just means that we don't walk around thinking about it like men do. I'm generalizing, but that's the way it is for most of us. [00:15:46] 
 
We can either be open to sex or we can kind of be closed to sex. I use some terminology of what's a sex-positive thing that your husband can do that makes you feel like you would want to have sex with him? And what are some sex-negative things? I call them emotional turn-ons or emotional turn-offs. So if we're in neutral, how are we shifting the gears, right? 
 
For your husband to take over a job that you usually do, whether it be he's giving the kids a bath and letting you take a bath or something where you can kind of get your mind in the place where you're feeling good, you're feeling more rested, you're feeling more at peace or more relaxed. 
 
You know, having sex when you've just spent the entire day taking care of the kids and then making their lunches and doing everything, and then all of a sudden your husband wants to have sex and he had been sitting on the couch, obviously, that's not going to be something that is an emotional turn on for you. 
 
So using that kind of terminology where he's realizing that it's not just about physical things. It's the emotional things that he's doing. That he's noticing you, that he's offering help, that he's allowing you to get some rest so that your body and your mind can be in the place where you are open to sex. [00:17:02] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great. It goes back to what you said about intimacy being three-dimensional. Your mind, body, and soul are all intertwined. I've heard recently on the internet something that I didn't personally agree with. I would love for you to weigh in on this. 
 
They said for the woman after you have children, you may not feel like having sex, maybe even for a year and a half, so your husband will understand you don't need to. What's your take on this with your background and even your theology? 
 
Lauren Dack: First of all, there's some truth to it, I just don't agree with it fully. If you are in the place where having sex with your husband would be uncomfortable, painful, or feel completely like you were being used, that is not a good idea. However, not having sex for that long a period of time makes it really hard to get things back on track. 
 
So we really need to have some in-between. We've got to have some kind of compromise here because I really think that that's not a good idea for either one of you. And if you need professional help with that, go for it. [00:18:14] 
 
But I think having a very open conversation with your husband about what's going on with your body and your mood and doing whatever you can to take care of yourself. What happens so often is we as women feel like after we have kids we get a pass not to do anything for ourselves. That we literally can't do it. 
 
And the truth is your marriage and your sex life depends on you, taking care of yourself. I could go on forever about this but I love that God made our sexualities different. It's kind of annoying in some ways, but in other ways, I feel like there were so many good reasons for it.
 
One being for a woman to want to have sex, she's got to be fairly healthy, she's got to be taking care of herself, and she's got to be loving herself well enough or accepting herself well enough or getting the sleep that she needs. She's got to feel good. 
 
Again, you can push through that and have sex anyway. I just don't recommend it. So for you and your husband to come up with a plan. Like, here's what's going on and you know, what can we do about this? [00:19:22] Whether it be to get someone to come and watch the kids one day a week or to put them in a short little school so you can get a little time to yourself or for your husband to take over a couple nights a week for the nightly ritual so that you can have some extra time to yourself before you guys are alone together in their bed. 
 
Whatever it looks like, it doesn't have to be complicated, but for you to take care of yourself. And that be a motivation, right? Because not having sex for a year and a half, it's not a good idea long-term for your marriage or even short-term, honestly. 
 
I know some really understanding husbands, but that really does do some damage, right? So even if you can't have intercourse, that you're having intimacy in some way. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that answer because it's so balanced. It speaks to both sides that you can be creative too if there's pain, like you said, or if you're feeling used, you need to bring back in that emotional intelligence and work through some things. Don't just stop. Put a game plan together. Be on the same page. Find intimacy, even in the problem-solving, together. But this can be overcome. [00:20:38] 
 
Lauren Dack: This goes with any problem in your marriage. It's not just going to go away if you do nothing about it. You have to actively engage in, like you said, problem-solving. And to do that together is the best way to do it. This is something together. You both want to be able to have a healthy, whole marriage. And that does include physical intimacy. 
 
And so to be able to come up with compromises and game plans and ideas of how can we work through this issue? It's not, hey, this is your problem, lady. You know, you fix it. It's no, this is our problem and we're in this together as a team to figure out what we can do to make this something that works for both of us in this season of our lives until we can get back to maybe something even better. 
 
Laura Dugger: And now on the flip side, let's say it's a different issue. The wife just feels like she has a past now, and because she doesn't feel like engaging, she thinks she's off the hook. What would you say to her?
 
Lauren Dack: First of all, I would say, I love you. I would just say, I get it. It makes sense. It's hard to want to think about anything else when your whole life, especially for those who have maybe colicky babies or just a baby who just will not sleep and you are at your wits end barely making it through the day you're surviving. [00:22:09] I get it. 
 
And it's so easy to put your marriage last. I've done it. So first of all, I just want to say, I love you. There is no judgment here. But again, going back to what I said before, these kinds of things just don't get better by themselves. And when we get into these habits, it's really hard to get out of them. 
 
So if you're feeling alone or resentment or what, you know, all the things that I was listing before, to really talk to your husband about that. If he is not hearing you, go to counseling. Don't just let this be something that you ignore for a long period of time. 
 
The leading cause of divorce really is not feeling loved. So much of how a man feels loved is through sex. And so whatever that looks like, again, we don't have to define it as narrowly as intercourse, but through you making an effort with him. 
 
Sex is not just for him, by the way. I don't want to give that impression. Sex is also for us. But there may be a time where we're not enjoying it as much as we used to and it is more of a nurturing kind of sex that we're giving him in this in-between time. [00:23:23] 
 
But I want you to be able to get to the place where it's more connecting and then eventually sometimes passionate again. But we cannot go from 0 to 100. It's not just like flipping a switch when your kids are old enough suddenly you're gonna want to have sex with him again.
 
If you've gone a year and a half without having sex, you're going to be cool with it, probably. And it's going to be really hard to get things going back up again.
 
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Laura Dugger: Well, let's switch over to speaking more about parenting. As you discuss emotional intelligence, how can we teach this learned skill to our children? [00:25:46] 
 
Lauren Dack: Well, first of all, You need to be modeling it. Let's say that you raise your voice, you make a mistake as a parent, you're going back and you're apologizing, you're owning that you are angry and you are not expressing your anger in the right way and you're letting your kids know what you should have done instead. You are talking about your emotions as much as you can. 
 
When you're watching a show together, a movie, you can ask your kids, what do you think they're feeling right now? Say a character is crying or something like that. And let them tell you what they think. And if they don't know, you can say, "Well, it looks like, because their face looks sad and they're frowning and they're crying, that they're feeling sad." You also can do the same for them. So you're telling them what you're seeing, you're asking them, Are you feeling sad? 
 
Another thing you can do is those faces, you know, when they're a little bit older, showing them the little feelings chart with the faces. Something I love to do with my kids is read books. [00:26:50] There's a lot of books out there for emotional intelligence for kids, but When I Feel Angry and When I Feel Sad are some good ones. But there's a ton out there. 
 
Those books really help you identify what the emotion is and what are the appropriate ways to deal with it. So, for example, your child is feeling really angry and they're throwing things or they're hitting and you're letting them know, "Hey, it's okay to be angry. In fact, it's normal to be angry and it's okay. I don't mind that at all, but it's not okay to hit and kick." What can we do instead to show our anger? You can say, Take a deep breath. Ask for a hug. Take some time alone. Walk away. 
 
You're modeling to them and giving them those ideas over and over and over again, because good Lord, they're not going to learn it the first time. So you'll just keep doing that. It'll be those teachable moments. 
 
Laura Dugger: There's so much research that talks about the brain and how to get our thinking brain caught up with our emotional brain. Like you mentioned, taking a deep breath, that gives time for them to cool down and it actually increases the blood flow to the correct part of the brain that catches up so that they can think through something rather than simply be emotionally reactive. [00:28:11] 
 
Lauren Dack: Well, and I think, too, it may not work, because kids and deep breathing... I mean, it's still not working great for my kids, but I'm not going to stop trying to get them to do that. So don't give up if they're not responding to it immediately. Just keep doing the same things. 
 
You know, just in our culture especially, be aware or wary of some of the language that we use. For example, if your child falls down and they're hurt, instead of saying, "you're okay," say, "are you okay?" Instead of kind of putting on to them as they're crying. And parents mean well. I totally get it. There's no judgment again because I used to say that too. But just trying to give them a place to say "yes I am". 
 
Letting them cry. We try to differentiate between crying because we're upset about something and crying in a tantrum. I tell my kids it's okay to cry because you're sad or you're hurt. But when you're doing this just because you didn't get what you, you know what I mean, we've got to do something else because you're screaming and crying for attention or because you didn't get something that you wanted. You know, that's different. [00:29:19] 
 
Laura Dugger: Any other tips for teaching emotional intelligence to our kids? 
 
Lauren Dack: Comforting them when they're showing emotion, saying, Hey, I love that you told me about this or that we were able to talk about this. I noticed how you were sad, and you didn't kick the door or whatever. And you told me about it, and you came to me and asked for a hug. I love that you did that. So you're giving them the positive feedback for when they do express their emotions. 
 
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As a parent, you have a unique perspective. Can you tell us why? 
 
Lauren Dack: Sure. As I mentioned in my introduction, my oldest son, Caleb, has autism. We'd been dealing with autism long before we knew that it was autism. All of the training that I've had as a counselor and the parenting books that I read pre-kids and the ideas that I had about who I was going to be as a mother and how my children were going to behave, all of that went out the window pretty hard and fast when I've got a two-year-old who is completely out of control, and screaming and bucking and kicking and hitting and biting for an hour at a time. I wouldn't even know what had triggered the response. 
 
We went and got some testing done and realized he had a sensory processing disorder. And then about two years ago... no, maybe it was more like two and a half years ago, I was like, "I think it's more than that." We went into a developmental pediatrician and did a bunch of testing and questionnaires from the teachers and from me and some testing in the office, we got the diagnosis of autism and he put mild because they don't give the diagnosis of Asperger's anymore, which I think is really what Caleb is if they still had that. [00:31:53] But now it's just a spectrum. It's a very, very wide spectrum. 
 
I feel like I'm still learning what autism is, but it's a neurological disorder where there are some deficiencies in certain areas, social areas, and that often includes communication. Some people with autism can't communicate verbally. I have a blog where I ride this all out because I still am learning about it, but it just means there are some deficiencies. But there's also some giftings there too, oftentimes. 
 
People with autism tend to have a really good memory, and that's definitely Caleb. And not always, but they tend to have some area where they're gifted. That's not always true though, so I hate to make these generalizations because there's such a wide spectrum here.
 
 There's some deficiencies emotionally and then there's the sensory piece that I talked about. You have to have a sensory processing disorder in order to get the diagnosis of autism. [00:32:53] A sensory processing disorder just means that you experience either too much or too little of all of the senses or there could be a few that you're more sensitive to whether it be sound, touch. 
 
So you could be on the low end where you need very firm touch and you don't really feel the light touch or it could be touch you're very sensitive to it, you feel it very acutely. I'm sure you've seen kids with autism wearing headphones. They're just very sensitive to the lights or sounds feel really, really loud. 
 
I also have a sensory processing disorder, so I can relate to how noises can feel very, very overwhelming. And sometimes the sensory things can set off what's called a meltdown, where your brain is just kind of going haywire because of the overstimulation. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful because we just want to understand this further. So will you teach us more of what it's like to be an autism mom? 
 
Lauren Dack: Well, I will teach you more about what it's like to be Caleb's mom, just because it's a little different for everybody. [00:33:57] Caleb is a bright, loving, affectionate, really, really, really smart kid. And he is very aware of how other people perceive him. So he notices if you're upset with him or he can really pick up on how you're reacting to him. 
 
He likes to have structure. He likes to know how things are going to happen and what's going to happen. There are many people who don't recognize the autism in him because he can work really, really hard to behave neurotypically, so to speak. The problem is that takes a toll on him. It's hard for him because he's so much is going on inside his brain.
 
I'm still learning about what makes Caleb tick, honestly. But there are things, whether it be just overwhelmed from working so hard at school, and then he comes home and he's just tired, that the smallest thing will trigger a meltdown that looks like rage [00:34:59] and he becomes not my Caleb for a period of time. And there's not much I can do once a meltdown has already started except just try to keep him from hurting himself or someone else and try to keep him safe and wait it out. 
 
So despite the care that I've taken in being a good parent and having consistency and doing quote-unquote "all the right things", which I'm not saying I always do, but I certainly make a lot of mistakes, but to not see the gains from that as quickly as I do with my four-year-old, it's hard. It can be lonely and discouraging. It can be a little bit embarrassing at times, although I'm getting over that, because I just want to tell people, "I don't spoil him. I don't give him whatever he wants. I know he looks like he's the most spoiled kid in the world, and I say no to him. So getting over that. 
 
I feel like I'm so much less judgmental then. I mean, I was such a judgy person when it came to parenting before I had kids, and now I'm just like, No girl, you do you. You're doing the best you can. [00:36:00] So I give props to parents who are just doing the best they can. And sometimes we just got to survive. So I get that. 
 
I've let go of sort of these expectations for myself that I have to be perfect. I mean, for the most part, I still struggle with that. And I'm constantly, constantly learning. I'm never saying, Gosh, I've got this figured out. I'm going, Okay, this isn't working, so what now? I'm figuring out as I go. 
 
Caleb has taught me to keep trying. He's taught me to never give up, to keep doing it even when it doesn't feel like it's working right away. I'm so grateful to him for teaching me that, even though it's been a hard one to learn. 
 
Laura Dugger: But your humility and your response is just inspiring for all of us. Some people are relating because their child has a similar diagnosis. Some people may be hearing this and want to take further steps to go to a doctor and see if this is something that their child is dealing with. You mentioned... What type of specialists did you meet with? [00:37:01] 
 
Lauren Dack: You can go to a developmental pediatrician. You can also go to, I want to say, a psychologist who specializes in autism. So there are a few different paths. We did a developmental pediatrician because that was covered by our insurance. If you have to do it privately through a psychologist, it's thousands of dollars, so you have to choose what's right for you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Once you did get that diagnosis, was there anything helpful that came from that for you as a parent? 
 
Lauren Dack: Yes. It made me realize that I wasn't a bad parent, that the struggles that Caleb were having was not because of deficiencies in what I was doing for him as a mother, or what my husband and I were doing for him as parents. That we had a little bit more ability to get the kind of help that we needed for him and to understand him better. 
 
Again, this is still a process. But we got an ABA therapist. And there's a little bit of controversy about that that I won't go into, but I'm continually learning more about all this stuff. But for us, an ABA therapist was very helpful. This just stands for Applied Behavioral Analysis, I want to say. [00:38:12] 
 
It's basically a behavior therapist. They teach you how to deal with a behavior that is not good. So, for example, your child is having a hard time putting their clothes on. The therapist is helping you gradually make your way towards that desired behavior that you want them to be able to put their pants on by themselves or whatever the behavior is, the desired behavior is. We're looking to understand the motivation of the negative behavior and we're looking to reinforce a positive behavior that we want to see. 
 
So for us, this is a little bit different the way it usually is. An ABA therapist works with the child directly a couple times a week. In my case, the ABA therapist actually worked with me. I had the therapist teach me how to parent him and how to employ what's called a token economy, which works well for kids with autism, where you're really rewarding the positive behaviors. 
 
Of course, there's a consequence for the negative behaviors in that they're not earning the reward. But that is something that works very well. Giving a lot more rewards at the beginning and then kind of tapering them off is part of the token economy. She did it for me. She printed off the sheet and laminated it. So I was like, thank you, thank you. I'm tired of trying to figure this out by myself. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. So that was that. [00:39:24] 
 
Then getting in the services in school has been a whole nother podcast with getting the IEP, which is an Individualized Education Plan, meetings at the school, trying to find the right school for him. He's in first grade and on his third school, so it's a journey. 
 
Laura Dugger: It sounds like it. But I just really appreciate you sharing a little bit of your story and the grace that covers all that. You're an incredible, engaged mama, and I think it just shows we all need support and somebody to come alongside of us and help us get over whatever hump we're facing. 
 
Lauren Dack: Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and this is tied in a little bit, I believe, to your decision. You seem to have a thriving practice going with therapy. How did you decide to take a year off? 
 
Lauren Dack: There are a lot of reasons, but the main one was I was working part-time, but I was working two full days. There were two days a week that I actually didn't see the kids except for in the morning. I was coming home after their bedtime. [00:40:27] 
 
In some ways, it was awesome because they have a really close connection with my husband, but in other ways, it was difficult because I was out of pocket for two full days and pretty tired the next day. The challenges that we faced with Caleb going to school last year and everything that has happened since then and then sort of the final straw was him not being able to stay in his after-school program. 
 
So I was faced with either having to shift my schedule significantly so that I could be home with him after school or to take some time off and just focus on him and focus on getting myself in a place where I was feeling better about my role as a mother. 
 
When he had been in after-school I didn't see him very often except for the weekends. I didn't have any time with him alone anymore since he started school and so I was wanting to get back that connection. So it really has done that. It's been incredibly hard because I love my job so it's been a way for me to get things back on track and be fully engaged and ready to go back to work. [00:41:31] 
 
I think working mamas are amazing, and I think stay-at-home mamas are amazing. So for some mamas, working is something that makes them a better mom because they feel like they're able to be someone outside of their role as a mom, but they're also able to be present and engage with their kids when they're with their kids. 
 
Some mamas are home with their kids and they're able to be there for everything and able to be engaged in all the activities and all the little school parties and all the many, many things that I don't know how working mamas who work full time are able to do well quite honestly. So I think they're heroes in and of that.
 
I know for some people there isn't a choice, for some people they have to work. They have to make the most of that for financial reasons. And I just respect people making the most of their time with their kids, whatever that looks like, but making sure it's quality. 
 
Laura Dugger: You are in it right now with two little boys at home. What encouragement do you have for other mamas in that season? 
 
Lauren Dack: Well, my oldest is in school for a lot of the day, but yes, it's hard. I know myself well enough to know that my fulfillment as a person is not necessarily coming from my role as a mother. I love my kids with everything that I have and I really do enjoy a lot of my time with them, but some of my time with them I don't enjoy, and that's just being really honest. [00:42:52] And that's just me being okay with that, right? 
 
That some of it I'm just kind of like, right, let's just get through this. Bedtime. Having a little bit of time to myself. I've got both of my kids in school for a couple hours. Mason goes to school for a couple hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so I get a little bit of time to go to the gym and to just do something for myself. I think that's really important to be able to be an engaged, active mom is to not ignore yourself as a person and your needs. 
 
And then date night, game changer for my husband and I because we'd never had a regular date night until recently. And that has been something to look forward to, a time for us to talk because our kids literally will not allow us to talk when they're around. Then after the kids go to bed my husband and I, we've always done this, we watch TV together and we talk if we need to. We don't turn the TV on if we need to have a conversation about something. And we reconnect at the end of the day after they go to bed. So that's also huge. [00:43:55] 
 
Laura Dugger: This has been incredible. Can you share where listeners can further connect with you? 
 
Lauren Dack: Absolutely. I've enjoyed this as well. If you are interested in learning more about my counseling practice, you can go to my website, which is just joyfullifecounseling.com. Or if you'd like to read more about my story or just more about our autism journey, more about my decision to become a stay-at-home mom temporarily, all of that, you can read about on my blog, which is ourmessyjoyfullife.com. 
 
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will connect to those in the show notes as well. I have one final question for you today that relates to our name, The Savvy Sauce. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment, and we want to hear insight from your life so that it can inspire us to take action today. So, Lauren, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Lauren Dack: Well, about 10 years ago, I decided that whenever I had a positive thought about someone, I would tell them, even if it was a complete stranger. So I have really found a lot of joy in being able to call out the good that I see in people. [00:45:09] 
 
So I was thinking it a lot of the time, Oh my gosh, I love her dress, or oh, her shoes are so cool, or whatever, right? Not even just outward things, but inward things too. And now I'm just saying them out loud. And it's only made someone uncomfortable maybe once or twice, but that's just because in general we have a hard time accepting compliments sometimes. But I am not going to stop doing that. In fact, I'll keep doing it until people get comfortable with it, because it's very important to be able to receive the positive things that others see in us. 
 
Laura Dugger: This has been such a rich time today with you, Lauren. I just appreciate what you've brought today, sharing your story again with such humility and grace. I've really learned and been convicted about how non-judgmental you are, and it makes me want to do my own work further. So thank you just for your presence and everything that you shared with us today. Really appreciated it. 
 
Lauren Dack: Absolutely. It was my pleasure, Laura. I enjoyed talking to you. [00:46:11] 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:47:17] 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:48:19] 
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:49:17] 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

44 Identity in Christ That Drives Our Calling with Annie Iskandarian

44. Identity in Christ That Drives Our Calling with Annie Iskandarian
 
**Transcription Below**
 
1 John 4: 18 (NIV) “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” 
 
Annie Iskandarian is passionate about communicating God's truth in a relevant way for lasting life change. She holds a BA in Communications and Masters Degree in Biblical and Theological Studies. Annie is wife to an entrepreneur and happily married into her husband's big Armenian family.  She is also mother to four children 5 years and under. While Annie is a type-A, focused and organized personality, having four children in five years has taught her to loosen up and not take herself so seriously. In her small windows of personal time, Annie loves to workout at her local YMCA, drink dark roast coffee and sleep! She resides in the heart of Silicon Valley and stays home full time with her little monkeys.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Psalty
Steve Green Hide em in Your Heart
Sing the Bible, Volume 2, With Slugs and Bugs (Randall Goodgame)
On Becoming Baby Wise: Giving Your Child The Gift of Nighttime Sleep by Dr. Robert Bucknam, M.D. and Gary Ezzo
Stoplight Clock
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian Schools
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Today we get to hear from Annie Iskandarian as we talk about a range of topics from helpful mom hacks to living a full countercultural life. You will quickly notice Annie is passionate about communicating God's truth in a relevant way for lasting life change. 
 
Annie and I met in Atlanta years ago when my husband was a speaker at a conference for our church, and she was the worship leader. We became instant friends, and I'm excited to get to share her with you today. 
 
Hey, Annie. 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Hey, Laura. How's it going? 
 
Laura Dugger: Great. So glad that you're joining us today. Will you start by just telling us a little bit about yourself? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Sure. [00:01:17] Well, my name is Annie Iskandarian. And for those of you who have any kind of Middle Eastern background, Iskandarian is Armenian. So I'm married into an Armenian family. And I am about the whitest, blondest, blue-eyed girl you've ever met. So you can imagine how I stick out like a sore thumb on that side of the family. But that's been really fun journey for me. 
 
My kids are first-generation Armenians living here in San Jose, California. My background is I grew up in a small beach town called Santa Cruz in California. So I am mostly Californian. I spent most of my growing-up years there. And then through high school and college years, I was in Atlanta, Georgia, where I met you, Laura. And then spent my college years in Chicago, went to Moody Bible Institute and studied communications there. 
 
After college, I moved back to Atlanta for a little bit for work, where I managed communications and marketing. And then eventually, about 22, 23 years old, I moved to San Jose, where I continued to work for a nonprofit doing marketing and communications. Then that led me to a church where my husband and I we met and led a ministry there together. [00:02:23] 
 
So long story short, we were together at a church in San Jose, California, and before we knew it, we had four kids. So that's kind of been part of our journey. And along that way, before I had my first kid, I finished up my master's in biblical and theological studies. So part of the big part about me is I love studying God's word and teaching other people about God's word. And now I get to do that a lot with my kids. 
 
Laura Dugger: And you do that so well. Some listeners may have learned from your dad as well, who's Chip Ingram. So how has your dad's life in ministry affected your personal calling? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Oh, it's made a huge impact. In the early years, when I was in probably junior high, elementary, or junior high, my dad started airing on the radio. He was a local pastor in Santa Cruz, California. By the time I was in high school, he was leading an international discipleship ministry that spanned all over the world. And so I got the privilege of being able to travel with him and do ministry with him. I came alongside him for several years to write with him. [00:03:27] 
 
I think the biggest testimony to me about my dad was just that his life was consistent. His life and his mission to preach God's Word rooted so deeply in me because I saw that consistency and integrity. It planted and birthed in me a desire to do the same thing. And so what my parents lived and what he preached, it was consistent at home. And so I was like, I have no greater testimony of how I want to live my life. This works. Trusting in God and loving Him and being His Word, it changes your life. I wanted that same thing, and so I ended up on a very similar path as my father. 
 
Laura Dugger: You and I have both benefited from the gift of having amazing earthly fathers, but even more important, we get to be daughters of God. That opportunity to be a child of God is available to everyone listening, regardless of their family situation here on earth. 
 
That ties into this next question. So Annie, as you've rooted your identity in Christ, He has revealed a calling on your life. Can you share what that calling is and how it's manifested itself over time? [00:04:35] 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Sure. Just early on, I'd say even by high school, I just felt this strong pull to communicate. I can look back to even high school years of being part of different things at church, or I went to public high school in Georgia, and that was a huge opportunity for me to learn how to share my faith. 
 
When I thought about what do I want to do with my life, I just realized I just want to communicate and teach people about God. Even I remember writing out a college application to Moody Bible Institute, and you know, they're asking, you know, what does God calling you to do with your life? I just remember the succinct sentence that God gave me, and it stuck with me my whole life, that He has called me to communicate God's truth in a relevant way for lasting life change. 
 
So whether He's having me talk to moms or talking to children or, you know, young professionals, God, I think He almost just uses the season I've been in to let me rub shoulders with the people I'm around to communicate His truth. That journey led me to go to college and also to my undergrad and master's in biblical and theological studies. That just really drove the direction of my life. [00:05:42] 
 
In those early years, for me, for my early 20s meant a lot of like public speaking, teaching, writing, blogging, leadership training. I was really passionate. Part of what drew my husband and I together is when we had joined our church, we just saw such a gap between that post-college 20s and 30s. There was just nothing at our church for people who say, like, I really want to follow God. We just didn't see that in our demographic. 
 
And so that was just a big passion of ours, that we would help cultivate an environment and a community to teach people and encourage them to really live out their faith. That drove a lot of where I spent my time. 
 
But my life really did change. You know, I kind of thought for a lot of my life I'd just kind of walk right behind my dad's footsteps. I helped him with a lot of different events. I used to go straight from my father a lot. So I was used to blogging a lot about content, helping people understand God's love for them and the hope to find in Him. [00:06:44] 
 
But when I was just finishing up my master's, I remember giving a speech at the graduation. I was very, very pregnant, eight months pregnant. I remember everyone sharing at graduation, like, here's the next thing you're going to do. And I had a picture of myself pregnant on the screen and it says, "I'm going to be a stay-at-home mom." 
 
It seemed a little anticlimactic to finish up all this education only to stay home. But I just remember feeling like, Okay, well, God, you've given me this example from my own family and I just feel called that like I want to be the primary influence in my child's life. If that means I need to push pause, you know, on my career path right now or limit to how much time I spend on it, I'm willing to do that. Like, God, you've given me this gift. So I have no idea what I'm doing, but like, I just want to take that step of obedience. 
 
I remember bringing this baby home and, you know, life just changed. We can kind of go further into that story later. But what I've been learning in the big picture is even though God has placed that call on my life, it doesn't mean that it's on hold just because I stay home. Now I'm home with four little monkeys five years and under, and He's still calling me to communicate God's truth in a relevant way. [00:08:00] 
 
Now I'm learning how to do that in a way that children understand his love. That's been a huge challenge for me because I'm someone who loves spending time with adults. I'm not a kid lover. I was so fearful of having kids because I felt like I don't even like babies. And so when I started to have kids of my own, I realized, oh, I really like, I really love my own children. 
 
But learning to communicate God's love and His word to little children has been a whole new learning for me. That's the kind of the journey God's taking me on. I just have trusted that He's fulfilling that calling in my life through the neighbors and the friends and the family and the people that he allows me to rub shoulders with in my little sphere right now, being home with my kids. I'm pretty tied to home with nap times and all their schedules, but He's still using me and I'm still experiencing the joy of being in that calling.
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. And I think so many people are identifying with this because maybe like you, they've pursued a passion or a dream. [00:09:01] Also, having children, it feels to them like they have to make a choice: Which way will they go? It sounds like you're saying it can still be both, but it will look different than you're assuming. 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Absolutely, yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: So at this time when you're saying you've got this high call of motherhood and this other call that God's put on your life, what has that looked like in the past and the present? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Sure. I'll just kind of go back picking up on my story that when I had my first baby, I think just to be really honest with everyone who's listening and maybe they felt this way as well, I remember bringing that baby home and you know, the first few months you're just trying to like figure out how to like nurse a baby and sleep and all those basic things. 
 
I didn't know if I even had enough brain space to think about career. I was just kind of thankful I didn't have any other pressures to deal with. But once that baby started sleeping through the night and I had more free time, I was a little restless and I struggled. I really struggled with... it went back to identity issues for me. [00:10:04] 
 
What I had known is Annie is important and Annie is valuable and significant when she performs really well. I don't know if I would have been able to tell you that was my belief system because I would have said, Well, God loves me. I'm worthy because He loves me. 
 
But the belief system that I was really living out was when I work hard and I get pats on the back and I execute a plan really well at work or get that piece written for that article that needs submitted, when those things get accomplished, then I feel really good about myself. Now all of that was stripped away from me. 
 
So that was a really big struggle. I had to wrestle for several months with how... okay, God, you've given me all this opportunity to be educated, you've given me so much opportunity and people want me to work but yet you've placed this baby in front of me that obviously needs a lot of my time and attention, and you've told me that like I'm the person that's supposed to raise them and love them and teach them. [00:11:05] 
 
I think the biggest thing for me was really dealing with my identity issues before I said yes to anything else. I think what happens when just talking to other friends is, you know, we get restless or life's just really hard being home because being a stay-at-home mom is really difficult, we kind of run to the next job opportunity because it makes us feel good. 
 
I think for me, I really had to go through a process of, okay... like being in God's word, that was a big part for me was just getting in His word every day and being like, "God, who do you say I am? Because I don't feel very significant anymore." I had come from being on a platform and speaking publicly a lot. I had been in a place where I just felt like I got a lot of accolades, and then it was just like, now I'm in the daily unseen and no one sees me. No one sees me up in the middle of the night changing a diaper. No one sees me taking care... and no one saw me vacuum the floor. Is that all I'm good for today?
 
God just took me on a journey of realizing how loved I am apart from my works, apart for my career. [00:12:08] That was a really important process for me to go through. And I think processing with my mentor, talking to other moms who have gone before me and I think that's the truth from God's word we're really shaping process. 
 
And you know, it was so cool. It was so freeing. I got to this point where I was like, Okay, I know God's put these really strong calls on my life and He's gifted me, but it doesn't mean it's over. He's put me in a really specific season to be faithful in. His love for me and my significance does not change just because my season has changed. That was the journey he took me on. 
 
As I processed all that, He did give me an opportunity to do some contract work. Given that I do a lot of writing, I was able to do some of that and do some events and projects. I ended up working between baby one and baby two, and they were only 16 months apart. So I didn't have much time in between. But I think maybe when he was eight or nine months, I worked maybe during my pregnancy of my second child, anywhere from maybe five to 10 hours a week. [00:13:07] 
 
I would drop my little guy off with my mom for five or six, seven hours, maybe one day a week. And then I'd use maybe early in the morning or late at night to just finish up a couple of things. And that seemed to work. That seemed like a really good balance for our family at that time. 
 
Then after baby number two came, I kind of went through my same wrestling again, because I had gotten used to working a little bit. And I had to go back to like, well, what does God say about me? And where does my significance and my value lie? Then He gave me another opportunity. 
 
One thing I just want to say is just because you're given an opportunity doesn't mean you say yes. I think that's been the biggest lesson I've learned in job opportunities when you stay home with your kids. I've had to say no to a lot of things. I always get really excited right when the offer is there. And then when I'm really honest and take time to pray and listen, a lot of times, I'd say nine times out of ten, God says no. And it's like, oh, really? But God's like, well, you trust me. He was always asking me if I'm going to trust him with my career path, because He's the one who owns it. He's the one who's going to provide. [00:14:11] 
 
I ended up saying yes to another opportunity. I should also highlight, I said yes to something I shouldn't have, and it really, really put a strain on our family for a season. There was a season about three years ago where my husband lost his job. Instead of waiting patiently and praying, I jumped on the first opportunity I had to make money, and it was a terrible decision. It just showed me when I take things into my own hands, it creates so much stress for our little family. 
 
That's a big lesson that God taught me. He's really taught me to be patient, to listen to Him when those job opportunities come, and to see if He says yes or not. He's given little opportunities to work here and there in between kids. 
 
Once I had my third one, I kind of hit my capacity. I don't think I'm going to be able to really do anything consistent. Here and there, I've said yes to a really small project. And that's worked really well where I said, okay, like this deadline's in two weeks and I'll deliver X, Y, and Z. and I can line up babysitting for a couple hours here and there. But I've never been able to do anything really consistent weekly just because I don't have the support for babysitting, nor do I really want to hand that off. [00:15:23] I just really feel like I'm called to be home primarily with my kids and be that influence for them. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so neat to hear your journey. It's powerful. To make it relatable to everyone out there, touch base with God. Ask Him because He may have a yes, He may have a no, He may have a course correction, but you can trust Him. He is good. 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Yeah, that's been one of the biggest things I've learned in my journey with Him, and as a mom is a lot of times following God doesn't always make sense. It's not always if you do this, then He'll do that. The life of faith is trusting Him. It means that you make wise decisions. You got to be smart about what you do. But I think there's so much room to trust Him. 
 
I think a lot of times we kind of calculate our own plans and how things are going to work out. [00:16:12] Like with our finances, one of the values we've had personally, people have different perspectives on this, but for our family, my husband, it's been really important to him that I never say yes to a job opportunity for the money. It's only to fulfill the calling and the joy in my life. So that's really removed that burden for me. 
 
And does that mean that we're just abounding in money? Not necessarily. We've had seasons where it's been better and seasons when it's been really hard. But I think he's really wanted me as the primary caretaker of our kids to feel like that is my main gig and that if I'm going to take on something on the side, it's really out of joy and it's out of this gifting and calling that's going to refresh me. 
 
Because there's times as moms when we're home all day and those days are long and they're weary and they're mundane. Like to be able to go do something and use your brain, it's super refreshing and that can actually be a great thing. So it makes you a better mom and a better wife. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that, using the joy of the overflow, the abundance. [00:17:13] So when you are having these decisions about working, do you ever struggle with guilt that comes along with that? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Absolutely. There's definitely been seasons where I've said yes to things and then I feel the weight of those decisions and realize, Oh my, I must have overestimated how much this was going to require of me. And then I feel the guilt of not spending as much time with my kids or the house is a mess or I don't have dinner on the table. Then all that stuff just stresses me out and then it's this big ball of mess. And then I just cry. I don't know if you feel that way sometimes. 
 
I think sometimes we have to identify where that guilt is coming from. Sometimes there's guilt that helps us, I think it helps us stop and reevaluate. So when we're feeling that guilt... guilt is not from God, conviction is. And so I think being able to discern where those feelings are coming from is really important when you start to feel those things. [00:18:12] 
 
For me, you know, there's been times where I said yes to that work opportunity and it lasted six months and I felt a lot of guilt and a lot of stress because I realized I said yes to something that I shouldn't have and I just got myself in a commitment that I shouldn't have. And so I was living with kind of the remorse of what that meant. I was feeling guilt over my kids being in front of the TV too much, maybe not being as present at home, having my phone open all the time, you know, when my kids are just wanting to have me push them on the swing. And I did not like living with that. 
 
What I realized is that was a kind of guilt that was like a conviction where I realized that was like God tapping on my heart saying, Okay, let's reevaluate this. And how can you deal with this? Then sometimes I think we experience guilt that's false guilt. I think it's really important to discern that. 
 
I love the passage in 1 John 4:18. It says, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect and love." I think it's really important to go back to what are our motives behind our decision-making? [00:19:25] Are we saying yes to an opportunity out of fear because we feel like our identity is missing, this piece of success or identity? That would be making a decision out of fear and not out of love, and then that could produce guilt. 
 
But if you have prayed about something and you feel like this is what you need, what your family needs... a lot of times when we make decisions as moms, you're making a decision for the whole family. Because we can't see ourselves as individuals, we need to see ourselves as the ones. It's a holistic family decision when we say yes to a work opportunity. 
 
But I've had times where I've said yes to an opportunity and really prayed about it, got on the same page as my husband, and known there's going to be a sacrifice there. But it's been driven out of love and security of knowing this is what I'm called to do. And when you have a clear green light like that, and especially I think being on the same page as your spouse is a really big part of that that God uses, then you can go in confidence. 
 
If some of that guilt comes in, then I think you just attack that guilt with Okay, this guilt is not from God. This is from the enemy. And I need to be aware and do my best to be present at home and with my children. But if I've been called for X, Y, and Z, then I need to be faithful to carry it out. And God's going to give me the grace to get through it. [00:20:34] 
 
I think that's been times for me where He's given me something to do outside the home and He's provided the people and the village, the tribe to love my kids along the way. I'm just reminded I'm not the only person that can help my children grow and develop. There are so many friends and family, teachers that make a great influence and difference in our kids' lives. 
 
So I think it's kind of a lie to think that we're the only ones that can pour into them and help them grow. There's so many amazing influences that we can surround our children with while we get something done, especially if we're called to it. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love how you said that. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: This sponsor is particularly special to our editor, Natalie, because this is the school where her husband teaches and her children attend. Peoria Christian School, grades pre-K through 12, offers a Christ-centered, award-winning education for students. They believe eternity matters and so they want to share the importance of knowing the Lord personally. [00:21:36] 
 
PCS supports the Christian home and church by teaching from a biblical worldview. Their caring faculty and staff infuses God's truths through every area of the day, not just in daily Bible classes or in weekly chapels.
 
Peoria Christian students engage in active learning through STEAM, bring your own device in high school, and so much more. The Peoria Christian Elementary School was named a 2017 National Blue Ribbon School of Excellence, and the high school was named a 2018 National Blue Ribbon Exemplary High-Performing School. 
 
PCS students grow in every aspect through their safe environment as teachers share their faith throughout the day. It is another place where your student hears and sees how to live with a Christ-like attitude and develop biblically-based character. The students are academically challenged and spiritually equipped for the next phase of life as lifelong learners. 
 
Peoria Christian School is raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org and schedule a campus tour today. Thanks for your sponsorship! [00:22:42] 
 
Laura Dugger: As Christians, we often talk about this term "quiet time". Can you explain what "quiet time" means and then share how that definition has expanded for you over time? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Quiet time kind of in the Christian community we would use that phrase as time set apart to be alone with God. Characteristically, it's quiet and then you spend time doing it, reading His word, praying, sitting quietly. Usually, I associate it with a hot cup of coffee and a couch. Those have been things that I've enjoyed. 
 
For me, the definition of a quiet time, there's things that have evolved about it for me over the years, from the time I was young, learning to spend time with God to where I am now in my early thirties with being a mom of four. For me, a quiet time, I think it always has to have the components of connection and communication with God and some type of grounding in His word, whether you're reading from His word, you're praying. But those things are essential for a quiet time. [00:23:45] 
 
But I think how that looks and how it plays out can look really differently for different people and in different seasons. So for me growing up, probably from the time I was in high school through probably my mid-20s, quiet time meant for me I wake up early before work or before school, I find my comfy chair and get my coffee and my protein bar and I sit down and I read a passage. I might write it out in my journal, study it, I'll circle things that are important, pray about it, process it, and think about how I can apply it to my life. It was much more time to study and then time to really pray. For me, it was really quiet and it was a time for me to pray out loud. So that was really important for me in my journey of learning to have a quiet time. 
 
Well, I got really disturbed when I became a mom or even got married. I remember being like, "Oh, this other person sitting here. I can't pray out loud with them sleeping next to me, you know, or being in the same house. So learning to adapt and find those spaces that work for you to meet with God. [00:24:46] 
 
It really was an adjustment for me becoming a mother. I still kind of figured out how to have those quiet times with one kid at home, but once two, three, four came, it just got harder and harder. I think it's easy to just give up because as moms, it's hard to find time for ourselves. Someone's up at 2 a.m. Someone wet their pants. Now someone's hungry at 5:30, everyone needs breakfast. There's always something and we're just tired. 
 
One of the things that I've really learned is that quiet times don't have to be quiet, and they don't have to be early in the morning, but they're essential to be great life-givers. I think for us, our primary role as moms is to pour out life and truth and goodness and patience to our children. 
 
I don't know about you, but I do not have the capacity or willpower to do that in my own strength. So I need time with God. I need His Spirit to fill me afresh. Talks about in Romans 12 too that we'll be renewed when we're in His Word. His Word and His truth renews us and shows us what to do. 
 
Moms, we make a million small decisions every day. I need the wisdom of God to show me, Well, do I feed this kid this now and then do nap time or do I like drive over here and pick this kid up? [00:26:07] We make up so many decisions and God can give us wisdom on how to order our home and He can give us patience when our kids cry for hours aren't in or whine or having tantrums. He can show us what to do. He can give us power to be patient when those things happen. 
 
So I've learned that whether you're pregnant and you can't sleep or you have a newborn, there's still a way to meet with God. Some of the ways I've learned to do that is... like this morning I'd planned to get up early and guess who was up at 4 a.m. and then 5:15 was my little Nathan. He just kept crying. He's too little, you know, he can't be on his own. He's 19 months. So he ended up just climbing in bed with me. 
 
I prefer to be alone with my quiet time. Finally, I drank my coffee. And he's really cute, sharing his little granola bar with me. I handed him over to my husband for maybe 10 minutes. And you know what, in those 10 minutes, I realized I have to fight for it. And so I just picked up my devotional and I just reviewed a verse, just one verse. And I just asked the Lord, God, will you help me today? Will you just show me how to live? Will you help me to trust You with all that I have going on? Will you give me strength because I'm so tired? [00:27:16] 
 
I just claimed that verse. And you know what? That was my quiet time today. But you know what? I connected with the Lord. I depended upon Him and I put His word in my heart. There's been other times where I don't even get those 10 minutes and I just blast worship music in my house. And sometimes I've just learned to pray out loud with the chaos all around me. 
 
My kids, sometimes... I don't know about you, but if you've ever had all your kids screaming and crying all at the same time, it can be so stressful. I used to just cry with them, because I'm like, I don't know what to do. And now I've learned to pray out loud over them when they are a mess. It usually calms me down. Usually I try to get one calm down at a time. But I've learned that God's present. He's with us. 
 
He doesn't need us to be still and sit quietly for us to meet Him. He's already with us. If we've invited Him to live inside of our hearts, He's present and He can give us power. And we can call on Him at any time, in any hour, whether it's quiet or loud or chaotic, and He meets us there. So that's just been a big journey for me. 
 
I would say just for women in our stage, I think it is a mindset to fight for, though. For me, it's like a non-negotiable. It's one of those things I can't live without. So even if I can't have that space, I'd say once a week or once a couple times a month I get that full hour where I get a study something because I'm home with four little kids that all need something. [00:28:35] But I can still find those, that 10-minute window I can replace scrolling on Facebook. It's all about my decisions and how I use my time.
 
Laura Dugger: That's so good to hear these creative solutions. For somebody it may be writing on a post-it note and sticking it on your mirror one verse that you can refer to or put something in your vehicle if you're carting your kids around all day. I know personally, there was a mentor that I had years ago when I was first becoming a mom, and she said, the Bible tells us that we don't live by bread alone, but by the words that come from God. And that is His Bible. 
 
And so she said, just think, if you were hungry all day, but you were so busy with all these kids, you didn't have time to sit down and eat a large meal, would you just say, Okay, forget it. I won't eat today. No. You would take what you could get. You would snack. 
 
And so she said, something I did when my kids were little, I left a Bible out in a room that we would be in quite a bit, either the kitchen or the playroom and I would just snack all day long, just read one verse here and there and pray and connect with God. [00:29:42] I love that God is so creative. There's endless ways that everybody could apply that to their own lives. 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Yeah, there's even times I put kids' praise music on in the car. And a lot of times they're pretty scripture-based. I'm like tearing up driving the kids somewhere over the kids' praise song. But I'm like, Hey, if that's what God needed to give me today to get through it, awesome.
 
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness, so true. Their devotionals and stories that we share with them can always be applicable to our own hearts. Do you have any fun resources to share or songs that you recommend? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Most people I've talked to have never heard of it, but I grew up on Salty, the singing songbook. You can still find them on iTunes, but all of the songs are based on scriptures. So the kids learn how to memorize scripture by singing songs. So that's Salty, the Singing Songbook. I've heard great stuff about Keith Green. So these are kind of old-school resources. I know there's so many other resources out there. I feel like I could utilize more and learn more from others too. [00:30:41] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And we'll link to those in the show notes. Some that I like as we're driving, we still have a CD player, I believe it's called Slugs and Bugs. It's scripture to music, so we'll link to all of that. 
 
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Something I've always admired about you, Annie, is your ability to be joyful living a countercultural life. [00:31:46] So what is one thing that you and your family are currently doing to intentionally push back against culture? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: I think, especially for us living in Silicon Valley, for me to stay home full time with the kids is super counter-cultural. I think it's the number one educated city in the world. It's pretty normal for everyone around here to have a master's or higher. It's just education and status and power are just so big here and money. It's the home of Google and Facebook and Twitter and all these really big software companies. It's really common. 
 
Most women I know, after six or eight weeks, maybe three months, they're back at work. A lot of these big companies they have daycares that are just attached to these companies. So they take their kids to these daycares or hire nannies. Most people here have a lot of money. They kind of just hand off their kids for the primary part of the day be raised by someone else. 
 
I think for us to make that decision to be on one income is a really big deal. [00:32:46] It's hard to even rent a house here on one income. You're competing with two incomes everywhere you go. So that's been a step of faith for us to take, to be on one income. And we've just seen God provide over and over and over again. 
 
Every time we've had a child, my husband has either gotten a raise. Or one time we had a child and he got fired, but God opened another door for him to get another job that paid way more. So we just went on this journey of faith, of learning to trust Him. And we just had some convictions and values that have driven decision-making. So I think that's been really countercultural. 
 
And I feel it. You know, I feel it when I go to the park. I feel it when I'm out. I really stick out. When I go to the park I don't meet other moms normally. It's like I meet grandmas and nannies. It can feel lonely at times being the only stay-at-home mom. I have a handful of friends that also do the same, and it's really nice to know them and do life with them, but it's definitely not the norm.[00:33:47] 
 
Laura Dugger: Were there any scriptures that informed that decision about being the main one with your children in these young formative years? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Yes. There's a couple of them. There's a passage in 1 Timothy 2:15. It says, "But women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love, holiness, with self-control." For a long time, I thought that verse was trying to say we're going to be saved. It was just like it was a weird verse for me. What do you mean we'll be saved through childbearing? 
 
But what it's talking about... that word "saved", you see it in another context later in 1 Timothy, but it's talking about our sanctification process. It's talking about how we're made holy, how we're changed by mothering our kids. It's talking about how God uses mothering as this primary tool to make us holy and to make us like Himself. It's a conditional phrase. You'll be sanctified, you'll be changed, you'll be like Christ through childbearing, but it's if, if you continue in faith, if you continue in love, holiness, and with self-control. [00:34:51] 
 
And so I think the idea that I'm going to trust God with my mothering, that I'm going to love my kids, that I'm going to seek His help with that has been really big. Kind of going back to that high calling. I think that philosophy for me has been I'm called to do this. And for me, life's greatest purpose, kind of overarching for me, is that I would walk with God and that I would love Him and become more like Him every day. 
 
And God's designed us as women to be life-givers. Biologically, you see it with how we're made, and also just spiritually, He's created us to give life and to nurture life how He's made us as female. And that's a whole other topic or podcast we could talk about. But how He's made us, we are specially gifted and designed to rear these children and to teach them and to train them up and to nurture them. I think that's made a really big difference.
 
I think the model of having my mother stay home and the influence and the impact that made in my life and in my brother's lives, it just made a big impact. [00:35:55] I think for me, it's not just the time spent with your child, although that time's really important, but for my husband and I, it's all about transmitting the values that we have onto our children. 
 
So if I want to see my sons and daughters love God for their whole life, no matter who they become, whether they become lawyers or doctors or preachers or scientists, whatever they become, my greatest joy and goal in life is that they would love God. So if I'm going to teach them to love God, they have to see my life and be up close and personal with me a lot. I think for us, it's a lot about transmitting those values and that being one of the most effective ways to do that. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. We've gone pretty deep in this episode. So let's lighten up with a quick lightning round. What are some healthy snacks that you feed your kids? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: My go-to are cucumbers, tomatoes, apples, and oranges. There's a Sprouts SoCo Farmers Market grocery store near our house. I can get like three cucumbers for a buck. So almost with two meals a day, I cut up cucumbers and they have to eat at least two or three of them with their meal. And then afternoon snacks, I'm big on apples, oranges, stuff like that. [00:37:10] 
 
Laura Dugger: What are some mom hacks that help you thrive with four at home? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Can I say sleep training? Sleep, early bedtimes. One of the best things I read early on, these are two great resources, I read Babywise when my kids, my first one came. and I know Babywise books, for those who are not familiar with it, it's all about helping your infant achieve nighttime sleep. And in the mom community world, there can be a lot of controversy about that book. But I took a lot of the main principles from that book, and it really helped me thrive and help my kids sleep at night in terms of just helping get on great rhythms for feeding and sleeping. Part of why I've been able to have so many kids so close together is because my kids sleep at night. There's been a lot of principles from that book that have helped. 
 
We're really big on early bedtime. In the winter and fall, my kids go to sleep between 6:30 and 7:00 p.m. every night. Summertime, like 7:00 to 7:30. That just gives us time to breathe. It gives my husband and I time to hang out. So that's a huge one. [00:38:12] 
 
Another one that's been a game changer for us are stop clocks and potties in their own room. So we have a stop clock that's in my kid's room. It's like a Street stop clock. Has a red orange and a green light. So when the light is red, they stay in bed and when it's green, they can come out and go. And so whether I use that for quiet times and naps, I use it for bedtime and when they can wake up in the morning. 
 
Especially when your kids start potty training, you know how they wake up super early and they have to go potty. Of course, you're like, of course, I'm going to let you out because you need to pee. I don't want you to pee your pants or pee the bed. That's a bigger mess to clean up. 
 
But what I learned to do is, for our kids, we set the clock to 6:45. They go to bed early, so it's about 12 hours after they've gone to bed. We try to wake up about an hour before that, so it gives us some time. But I put a potty right next to their bed. So if they have to go in the middle of the night or they have to go at 5:00 a.m. or 6:00 a.m., I've taught them to get out of bed, pull your pants down, go to the bathroom, and get back in bed. [00:39:17] 
 
That just kind of saves... sometimes your first reactions in the morning to your kids, if you're not ready for them, you get annoyed so quickly, you know, and it just kind of sets your day off. So for us having those stop clocks and potties... It doesn't mean that they don't come out sometimes, but it sets a great precedent and rhythms and expectations for them. The majority of the time I hear my daughter. Her room's right next to us. A lot of mornings around 5:30, I hear her get up, go potty in her room, and get back in bed for another hour. And I didn't have to talk to her, and that was awesome. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great. What tips do you have for making sick days more bearable?
 
Annie Iskandarian: I think just being sick as a mom is just the worst thing ever. I hate being sick. You know, this is the time to not feel guilty about TV. The days where you're so sick and you can't get help. If you can get help and you're really sick, ask for help. Unless I have a super high fever, I'm not necessarily going to be able to get help. [00:40:17] 
 
Activities like Play-Doh, let them play in the bath for a long time, put them in the backyard where everything's enclosed, and just let them play and lay down, those are all great things. And that is the time not to feel guilty about letting them watch two hours of TV. You're just in survival mode. I think it's the time just to let yourself get some rest. 
 
Laura Dugger: What chores do you have each of your toddlers do to help around the house? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: So we are working on them clothing themselves, getting all their clothes on and clothes off. My oldest is just about fully independent. He's four and a half. I have a three year old who can do most of that herself. They still struggle sometimes to get their shirts off. They're definitely good on putting shoes on and taking them off. We have a bin right outside our garage door, so they're responsible for finding their shoes in the bin, putting them on, and taking them off and putting them in the bin. 
 
So I'm really big on no clutter in our home. I have a playroom where the toys are, but the rest of the house, there shouldn't be any kids' clothes, shoes, toys. The rest of the house, I really prefer to have it in a place where if anyone stopped by or we come in, it just feels like a peaceful environment for adults. [00:41:25] And the kids can play and they're welcome to be there. But if there's something out that looks noticeable, they go put it away. 
 
They clean up their plates after their meals. So if I've served them something, they're responsible to go put their plate and cup in the sink. Most of the time I have them get their own water. The two oldest, especially, they're three and four. If we do clean-up time, they'll help with that. And then they're really good about helping me if I need them to go get a diaper or wipes. If I'm changing a baby and I'll say, hey, go run in this room and get me this. And they're good at just helping mommy in that way. 
 
Laura Dugger: How do you train your children to enjoy independent play? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Well, that stop clock is really helpful that I mentioned earlier. I think sometimes having something visual for them to look at. If you start training them really young, independent play is not so difficult. It kind of depends on when you start. 
 
There's a mantra in that Babywise book that I've really held on to. The principle is begin as you mean to go. So however you start something is how it's probably going to keep going. So if you want your baby to fall asleep without you rocking them to sleep, then teach them to sleep without being rocked. You know, there's all these different things. 
 
Now, I rocked my firstborn until he was eight months old, and then I got pregnant and realized, Oh, I can't do this anymore. So I taught the remaining ones that have come. By two, three months old I've taught them to go to sleep on their own without me rocking them just out of… like for me, it's a necessity. For other women, if your children are really spaced out and you enjoy that time rocking you sleep great. But for me, that was like they're learning independence and I wanted that. [00:42:57] 
 
Even when they're little as babies, take time to let them play in a pack and play or let them play in a playroom where you can look at them, but they don't need you all the time. So I was really big in like if my kids are occupied and playing, I'm not going to interrupt them. I let them play by themselves a lot at home from a very young age. And so they learned to kind of keep themselves occupied. 
 
Then as they get older, if you're starting at like two, three, four years old, and you're just starting to incorporate, something like a stop clock is really helpful. And you can just start in 5, 10-minute increments. You can help them see, Okay, I'm putting you in here when the light's red, and when it's green, you can come out. 
 
And you can start them on activities. A lot of times when you begin, it's help them start building a tower, help them build the racetrack, you know, help them do something in there to keep them busy. Once they get started, a lot of times you play with them for two or three minutes and they're good to go for another 20. 
 
Laura Dugger: How do you get breaks as a stay-at-home mom? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: That's a good question. I've learned how to get it. That independent play is huge. I've learned to really line up schedules with all of my kids. I have the baby sleep in the afternoon from 12 to 3 or 1 to 3. I need that time to rest. I utilize the two hours that the baby's sleeping. That's when I'm going to put older kids on quiet time. Maybe they've had a quiet time for 45 minutes. I might let them go play in the backyard in the sandbox for 20 or 30 minutes. [00:44:17] 
 
But I put them in quiet activities that are not going to require much of me at that time. I'll let them watch an hour of shows, but whatever that whole time the baby's sleeping, I utilize that to occupy the other kids in activities so that I can rest. So sometimes that means me taking a nap. Sometimes that's me sitting with a cup of coffee and just being by myself. 
 
I'm actually very introverted, and so I need that quiet time just to not have to talk to someone. I love working out. I just discovered it's like the best-kept secret for me. I know they're all over the nation is the YMCA. I just heard the best things about it. So we joined our local YMCA and our whole family of six, we go for $100 a month. There's like two hours of childcare every day there. And they just do a phenomenal job. 
 
So I am able to drop my kids off and I go work out for an hour, hour and a half. I go walk on the treadmill or run. I'll lift weights. I might take a class. I'd say at least four days a week, I go do that. And so that gives me a nice break, whether I do that in the morning or if it's been a really long day and I have that stretch hour until dinnertime.  
 
Three to five is like such a hard stretch of time. It just takes everything in me to get the kids loaded in the car and drive to the gym. But once I check them in, it's like, huh. And sometimes I don't even work out. I just go sit at the table and listen to music or call someone. That has been really, really helpful. [00:45:37] 
 
Laura Dugger: Those are some of the most difficult hours. I love that. What are some creative ways you save money, especially because you live in an expensive place on one income supporting six people? 
 
Annie Iskandarian: I don't know if I do the best job being on a budget, but we're learning. We are living within our means. I think that's kind of... we're not in debt, so we're trying to stay within our means. One of the biggest ways that I think we save money is just by eating at home almost every meal. Usually, on the weekends, I love not cooking. So we'll do Chick-fil-A or we'll do In-N-Out Burger with the kids. 
 
But if we do end up getting something for takeout midweek... like if I'm super tired, I'm like, I just need my husband to go pick up food. He'll only pick up food for the two of us. Because I always have go-to things for the kids at home, whether I'm making them quesadillas, or I'm going to heat up Chicken or meatballs or something. I usually have things in the freezer. I can throw in as well to feed them.
 
I've actually spent a lot of time with my mother-in-law. She's Armenian and she makes incredible Russian Armenian food. So I've spent a lot of time cooking with her. [00:46:41] And the seasons where I've been really pregnant or tired, I've had her come over and we all buy a bunch of groceries and we'll just cook for like four hours at a time and stock up my fridge.
 
Laura Dugger: I have one final question for you today. But before I ask, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or insight. So Annie, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Annie Iskandarian: You know what? I think my savvy sauce is a mantra. I seek to follow it every day. It's a phrase we've heard before. It's in best practices for business books. It's in a lot of different things. Put first things first. Put what is most important first in your day and get it done. I think that has been the biggest thing that has helped me succeed and get stuff done to thrive in my life, just as a person, as a mom, and as a wife. 
 
An example of putting first things first, we've already touched on it, but as much as I can control it, I try to put God's word in my heart first, in my mind. Because I know if I feed my soul, then when those little kids knock on me, the overflow will be good stuff. [00:47:46] 
 
Another thing I put first. I'm in a season right now where I do go to the gym in the mornings. There's times I go in the afternoons, but right now, that's just one of the first things I do because I just need to take care of my body. So by 9:30, I've put good things in my mind, I've put good things in my body. Even putting first things first looks like preparing your grocery list and getting your meals in order before you say yes to a playdate. It's about priorities. It's about what you say yes to and when you say yes to it.
 
I think being able to take time and evaluate your capacity, your priorities, and opportunities really gives you good boundaries to make great decisions and it frees you to not live under so much stress. What I've learned from a lot of moms is we feel a lot of pressure to do a lot of things, to have our kids involved in a lot of stuff. And we're supposed to be super moms that can do everything and have dinner on the table in a clean house. 
 
Applying, putting first things first, every day I wake up and I say, "Okay, what are the things I have to get done? Because most likely, I'm not going to get the nice-to-haves done. [00:48:47] But today, it's like, you know what? We must have socks tomorrow because we're all out. So I'm going to do a load of laundry. I put first things first.
 
Laura Dugger: Well said. Annie, this time has just been such a gift. Thank you for sharing your spiritual gift of leadership with us today as you instructed us on practical ways to passionately pursue God and enjoy this exciting adventure that He's prepared for each one of us uniquely. Your zeal and spiritual fervor is not lacking, and you've inspired each of us today, so thank you. 
 
Annie Iskandarian: Thanks so much, Lord. It's been a joy. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:49:49] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? [00:50:49] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:51:52] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

43 Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with Podcaster and Author, April Hoss

43. Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with Podcaster and Author, April Hoss
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Proverbs 14:8 “The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception.”
 
April Hoss is a wife, mom of 4, and unapologetic animal lover and dessert orderer living in southern California. She is living proof medical school ends, homeschool hecklers can become homeschool moms, and God has the wildest plans for the most unexpected people. She just completed her first novel, The Sound of Arrows.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.comand affiliated sites. 
 
Coffee+Crumbs Website
Coffee+Crumbs Podcast
Timothy Keller
The Magic of Motherhood (Book Compiled by the Coffee + Crumbs Team)
Some of April’s Favorite Recipes:
Beef Stew
White Chicken Chili
Breakfast Muffins
Some of April’s Recommended Food Blogs:
Pinch of Yum
Sarah J Hauser
N.D. Wilson Books April Recommends:
Death by Living
Tilt-A-Whirl
    
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Kelsie Zarko with Young Living Essential Oils and Night In Boxes
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by Kelsie Zarko. She provides practical education and guidance in using Young Living essential oils and products. Kelsey is passionate about making wellness simple and she will assist you in taking an intentional approach to your health and home. You can find out more at KelsieZarko.com. 
 
Have you been looking for creative ways to invest in your relationship with your spouse and with your family? You can do this from your home with zero preparation with Night In Boxes. For more information, visit nightinboxes.com. 
 
I've said before I love listening to podcasts, and one of my favorites is Coffee + Crumbs. That is why I'm so excited to interview one of Coffee and Crumbs' hosts today, April Hoss. April is a wife, mom of four, and she's a gifted author and speaker. I love her witty humor and love of Jesus. I hope you enjoy our chat. [00:01:29] 
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, April. 
 
April Hoss: Thank you so much. I am thrilled to be here. 
 
Laura Dugger: We're excited to have you join us. And listeners may know you from your own awesome podcast, but for everyone else, will you just start by sharing your story?
 
April Hoss: Sure. How much time do you have? I can be a little long-winded. When I hear something like share your story, I can get carried away. So please feel free to cut me off. But yes, everything you said is true. My name is April Hoss. I am part of the Coffee + Crumbs team. But getting from where I started to there was a little bit of a journey. 
 
So my husband and I are high school sweethearts. We met when we were 13 and 14 years old, which is... it just gets crazier. Every time I say it as the older I get, it just sounds crazier and crazier. But it's really true. We got married seven days after our college graduation. About a month later, we moved from our college life in Santa Barbara to Southern California to start medical school. [00:02:31] 
 
Actually, we did not start medical school. He did. I definitely did not go to medical school. I took the most basic possible math and science classes a person needed to graduate. We did not start medical school. He did. But we moved together, of course, and we had zero friends, zero family, zero experience or knowledge of our new city. 
 
Medical school is really its own beast, and it was just an incredibly lonely time for me as I started this new life as a wife and as a person that got transplanted to this new area. So I graduated college with a teaching credential but at that time, this was in 2006, jobs in Southern California were really scarce and so I was taking substitute teaching jobs when and where I could. But really there were a lot of days when I was just watching TV, eating terrible food because I knew how to scramble eggs and heat up pasta sauce. That was the extent of my culinary skills. [00:03:31] 
 
For my husband, medical school was the first time he had encountered any kind of academic challenge. Honestly, it wrecked him psychologically. He went from someone who was "school was a breeze," he was at the top of his class, the worst case scenario he was bored in class to someone who felt like they couldn't keep up. 
 
We had no idea, on top of all that, really how to be married, but we did have very idealistic notions about marriage. So neither of us went into marriage understanding there would be conflict, hardship. We just thought, "Here we go. We're married. We're gonna sail through life."
 
So our sky-high expectations got met with an immediate set of hardships, and we were really just a disaster individually, as a couple, in every way one could be. At our lowest point, my husband voluntarily asked to withdraw from medical school in order to repeat his second year of school. [00:04:30] And that was around the time that I said, "Maybe we're supposed to get divorced." 
 
And I should mention that neither of us came from families of divorce. Both of our sets of parents are still married. They're in happy marriages. We did not grow up seeing divorce. But I just thought that because our marriage was difficult, that's what we were supposed to do, that maybe marriages aren't hard and ours was because we had made this terrible decision. 
 
So, Daniel, my husband, did not think that was the answer. He did not want to get a divorce, but he didn't know really the way out either. And it was around this time we had just started getting involved in a church. We had kind of been in a situation that I'm sure a lot of people can understand. When you move to a new place and you're kind of going from church to church on different Sundays to find the right fit. 
 
We had finally landed at a church and we had started getting more involved and we heard someone mention that they listened to online sermons. They mentioned a man, specifically named a preacher, specifically named Tim Keller. And I had never heard of him. Not only that, I had never known that there were sermons online that people could just go on and download and listen to. [00:05:37] 
 
I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know people listened to sermons recreationally. So I'm sure I just heard that comment and kept walking to the donut table. But Daniel picked up on it and went home and started playing them from the computer in his office. So He'd be in his office getting work done, and I would be in the living room doing whatever on my computer, maybe writing lesson plans. This was around 2008, so blogging was really big. I wasn't a blogger myself, but I kept up with a few friends from college who had blogs. 
 
So I would just be kind of piddling around, and I would hear these sermons playing. Daniel started with Tim Keller's Genesis series. And I can't stress this enough, I actually froze at different times while I was listening. Whatever I was doing, I would stop in midair. So if I was typing on the computer, my hands would freeze over the keyboard. Or if I was folding a towel, the towel would be frozen in front of my face because I was just wide-eyed at what he was saying. [00:06:34] 
 
Even though I grew up in a Christian home, I grew up attending church, I never had been taught the Bible in this way. Everything Tim Keller said felt honestly mind-blowing to me. It was really through that, through that experience of listening to this Genesis series, that God really started working on healing us. 
 
And it felt like the same God who had ordained that we would be kind of swallowed by this whale of hardship and conflict and having our expectations dashed and not knowing what to do with ourselves would be the same God that ordained our way out onto dry land. So I developed this hunger. Okay, if this, if just in the book of Genesis all this was in there the whole time sitting next to me on my nightstand, what else is in the Bible that I never learned that I didn't pay attention to, and who is this God?" 
 
I developed a real hunger for God. At the same time, Daniel was developing a real hunger of God. And that became our kind of touchstone. We both wanted to study scripture more and learn about God more. [00:07:41] So even though there were still a lot of challenges in our marriage and even though we were still very immature and finally confronting that, which is such a painful thing to do to confront your own immaturity, we did have this one thing, which was suddenly we both wanted to know "what else don't we know about God?"
 
So we kind of rebuilt our marriage from there. Daniel did go on to repeat his second year of medical school and did much better. Ended up, of course, graduating. We went through residency together. He did fellowship years, and he's now an attending. So he was able to complete what he started. 
 
And I realized along the way, I don't like teaching, and it's okay to say that. That I went into this job because it's what I had trained to do, because from a young age, I thought it's what I wanted to do. But now that I'm here, it's not a good fit. And that's okay to admit. 
 
And around the time that I started studying theology and things like that, I also got really interested in writing. And this part of myself that I never knew was there sort of woke up with everything else. So in between work hours when I was coming home from teaching or on summer breaks and stuff, I was just writing, writing, writing, writing. [00:08:55] So in a few short years, our lives changed drastically. I tell people it's like God woke us up from a dead sleep, and in what was once a total disaster, God healed. 
 
So we went through that and thought, okay, we've been through a really hard few early years of marriage, and there's probably nothing else that's going to come and hit us anytime soon. After Daniel graduated from medical school, we thought this would be a great time to start a family. 
 
We can have kids while you're in residency. We had always talked about adoption since we were in high school. We knew we wanted to adopt and we thought we would go with the international adoption route because to be perfectly honest, I was too scared to do a domestic adoption. I guess I had seen too many TV specials on things going wrong, and I just thought, if we adopt internationally, there's no way the baby can ever be taken from us. We can't lose the baby. 
 
So we really did pursue that. We worked with an agency, but everything they required were just things we could not give them. [00:09:56] For instance, we wanted to adopt from China, but we both had to be 30 and we were still a couple of years from that. We wanted to adopt from Chile, but they needed us to go together for six weeks and Daniel could not get six weeks off of residency. 
 
We wanted to adopt from Ethiopia. We thought, "Okay, this is our third option. We'll try that," and they needed a really significant amount of money, like $30,000 in 14 days. Can you do that? No, we cannot do that. 
 
So it looked like God was saying, You're not going to adopt internationally. Through our church, we were in an adoption kind of information/support group. So it really was for anyone, whether you were just curious about adoption or you were in some kind of adoption process that was hard and you just wanted to talk to other families.
 
There were people from all walks and all places coming to this. From being in that group, I started to feel like God was pushing us toward domestic adoption, maybe foster adopt, and I just turned the volume down on that. [00:10:57] Like, nope, okay, you can do anything else, God, but please, please don't ask us to adopt through the foster system because I'm too afraid. So I just blah, blah, blah, like put my fingers in my ear on that. 
 
And so we thought, Well, this international adoption thing didn't work. We'll try again after we're 30. Maybe we'll go the China route. I always thought our very first child would be through this Chinese international adoption. Where I got that idea, I have no idea. But I just had that in my head. 
 
When that didn't look like it was going to happen, we thought we'll go the biological route. In the summer of 2011, I did get pregnant. And shortly thereafter, I experienced a miscarriage. That felt like, "Really? We've just had all of our adoption plans kind of fall and be foiled, and now this?" And I thought, "Okay, we'll just try again right away. We're just going to kind of brush ourselves off. This was hard. This was painful. This was unexpected. But what I should do instead of really feeling it or sitting with that pain is just try to get pregnant." [00:11:59] 
 
Again, in just a bizarre set of circumstances, I was matched to be a bone marrow donor. I'm still on the couch recovering from the miscarriage and I get this email from the National Registry of Bone Marrow Donors, something that I had signed up to be a part of when I was in high school, that said I was a potential match for a patient. 
 
There was a list of things they asked me to commit not to do. Like get a tattoo, travel to certain countries. One was get pregnant for six months. Could I commit to that? And I thought, "Oh my gosh, how is this happening? But I felt like, of course, I want to say yes, that I can put my plans on pause and see what happens. So that's what we did. Waited. It ended up that the patient chose a different route. I never had to do any kind of medical procedures whatsoever. 
 
In the summer of 2012, I got pregnant again. Another very bizarre set of circumstances. I had a miscarriage at the exact same time, same month, same day as I had had the first miscarriage. This is where it just feels like, cue the Twilight Zone music. It just gets super... what are the actual statistical chances of this happening? [00:13:11] Again, I get contacted, "You are a match for a bone marrow donor patient. Will you wait six months?" And I thought, "I can say yes this time with ease because I feel like God is saying, I've shown you the path I want you to take." 
 
So then from my bed where I was recovering from my second miscarriage, I looked into what is the next available date for an informational meeting through our county to adopt. I had the miscarriage in August and we were at the September informational meeting. In October, we were doing classes. We had to do 40 hours in about one month of classes on everything from kids that are drug-exposed and how to care for them, to how to walk with a parent who's trying to regain custody of their child, to basic parenting skills, everything in between. 
 
Then we had to go through a series of interviews, our home had to be inspected, kind of all the things that you hear about. We had to do the basic stuff to be placed with a child. In November of 2013, we brought our son, we brought Ridley home. And it was everything that I had been afraid of and worried about, it just wasn't there. It's kind of like when people tell birth stories and they were really, really, really afraid of delivering a baby and then they have the baby and they can't remember that it was painful or, did that actually hurt? Was I actually screaming and saying those things? It was kind of like that. [00:14:39] 
 
All of my fears about "What will it be like to become a mom this way? Will I feel like I'm illegitimate in some ways? Will it be just so terrifying to know that there's a birth parent within some mile radius of me, pretty near to me, that could take him back? Will that cripple me from loving him?" And all of that was proven to be untrue and not there. 
 
So he came home in November and then the following year, I got pregnant with our daughter, Kaisa. And then about a year and a half later or a year later, I got pregnant with our son Caleb. Someone said once they start coming, it's like the door never closes fully. Who else is going to walk through the door? How many kids are we going to have? 
 
So I have three children. They are 5, 3, 18 months, and I'm having a baby in January. So we went from, "We don't know what God is doing, will we be parents, it seems like maybe God is saying no to every road we walk down, it feels like there's this immovable block in the way to all of a sudden we're going to have four kids. [00:15:44] 
 
So it's been a really wild 12 years of marriage, but I think overall, if your question was, what's your story, and I answered a very long version. But the short one-word version would just be what I think is probably the word for a lot of Christians, just a story of redemption. There was so much that was broken and dead in my heart and in my life, and I really just had a front-row seat to seeing how God makes dead things alive in the last 12 years. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, April, your story is incredible. I just really appreciate how authentic you're being because I think a lot of listeners are going to relate to some of your experiences. 
 
April Hoss: I hope so. I hope anyone that's in a place where they feel like there's something dead in their life can hear that and know that I did nothing. I brought nothing back to life. I can't use my words to create things. That any good, alive, healthy thing in my life is just testament to God's hand in my life. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and he certainly has gifted you with the gift of writing. [00:16:48] And even with the book that you contributed to, The Magic of Motherhood, people can read little glimpses of your story in that as well. And just as a side note, we'll put that in our show notes. If you're wanting to know how to access the show notes, just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on this specific episode. 
 
But April, you are also on the successful Coffee + Crumbs podcast team. So how did you originally get into podcasting? 
 
April Hoss: That question definitely falls into that if anyone had told me I would ever be on a podcast, well, first of all, I probably would not have known what a podcast was, but I would have laughed so hard. I never saw that coming. 
 
So I had been on the writing team for Coffee + Crumbs for about a year, plus or minus when the woman who hosted season one and two of the podcast, plus Ashley, the founder of Coffee and Crumbs, approached me about co-hosting. And I have no background experience, even in something like radio. I know nothing about that. [00:17:49] But their confidence in asking me to join gave me confidence, and I just dove in. The microphone came in the mail, and we stuck the headphones in, and they worked. 
 
I feel like, honestly, I have the easiest job on our podcasting team because I show up in front of my laptop and press a button, and that's the extent of it. I have to email a file at the end that has my voice on it, but I don't carry any of the behind-the-scenes responsibilities, which I know there are many, and there are a lot of challenges, especially on the technical end, from editing to also just having, like you just mentioned, show notes. And I know that that's a job in and of itself to make sure all the links are working and organize the way it's all going to look. There's a website that all these podcasts have to live on and social media outreach and even reaching out to advertisers. 
 
Podcasting is really quite an enterprise and I'm just the girl in her pajamas laughing with her friends. So I don't want to take any credit for the heavy lifting on the Coffee + Crumbs podcast because, as you know, podcasting is not easy and it's what people are hearing is really the product of teamwork for sure. [00:18:54] 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, amen to that. Yes, it definitely takes a team. And how has your life changed since you started podcasting? 
 
April Hoss: What we're doing, is probably the biggest change or at least the most fun change is that I get to meet so many people and talk to so many people. Writing is I wouldn't say lonely, but it's pretty isolated. There's not a lot of just talking in writing, even though you might be writing a book with a lot of dialogue or pouring out so many words. You can often do that sitting in a coffee shop, not speaking to anyone, or up early in the morning before your family wakes up. There's not a lot of person-to-person communication in writing. 
 
And the thing about podcasting is that it still requires the use of words and things like that, and you want to have some of the same skills that a writer may bring to the table, but you're actually getting to have these really fun, engaging conversations with people. So the biggest change has been just my world widening a little bit and my horizons broadening. It's been great. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm so curious. Do random people ever recognize your voice in public? 
 
April Hoss: No. No. That would be so funny. No, not yet. We'll see if that happens, but I'll have people that will say, "I had no idea you were on a podcast, and someone said, listen to this podcast, and "Oh my gosh, I think I know her." So that's been funny. But no, when I'm out and about talking to my kids or doing whatever, doing life, and I'm chatting, no one has ever stopped me. [00:20:23] So that will be a funny day when that happens. 
 
Laura Dugger: That'll be awesome. You'll have to keep us posted when that occurs. 
 
April Hoss: I will. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors. 
 
Sponsor: Kelsie Zarko began using essential oils several years ago in an effort to keep her husband and one-year-old healthy. After experiencing dramatic changes as an entire family, she became passionate about sharing this simple wellness tool with others. 
 
Young Living Essential Oils and Products can support sleep, boost your immune system, support your hormones, calm your nerves, help with your teething babies, and so much more. Young Living also offers a convenient and effective way to embrace toxin-free living with everything from cleaning products to makeup. 
 
You can find more at KelsieZarko.com or on Instagram, she's @EssentiallyKelsie. And for a limited time, mention the code SAVVY to receive 15% off any starter kit packages. Thanks for the sponsorship. 
 
Sponsor: We want to say thank you to our sponsor Night In Boxes. They do all the work and research fun activities and then ship you a box each month so that you can invest in your most meaningful relationships.  
 
Each Date Night In Box include interactive activities with ambiance and a tasty treat to bring couples together in meaningful ways. For families who order Night In Box, you will also receive a box with interactive activities and a tasty treat all centered around life lessons. [00:21:57] 
 
Night In Boxes hopes to bring children together with an influential adult in a creative, fun, and meaningful way. We first tried the Faith Family Box and our children were giddy when our box arrived in the mail. I loved having an intentional family night to look forward to that took no preparation from me. 
 
In addition to receiving a custom-curated experience each month, you will also become part of a community that allows for an experience to be enjoyed beyond the box. So gift your loved one with a subscription today. Visit knightinboxes.com. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, something that I gather from being a regular listener of your podcast is that you are genuinely friendly. It just seems like you naturally listen well and you offer others such affirming messages. So do you have any other tips or personal practices that you recommend for being a good friend? [00:22:55] 
 
April Hoss: That's a good question because I think as moms, all of a sudden we find that being a good friend is a lot harder than it was before our child or our children or a part of our lives. We're just faced with challenges on every single front and friendship is not immune to that. 
 
I would say don't stop inviting people even if they say no. So if you have a friend that you really want to get together with for coffee or to meet at a park with your kids and it's just not working out, keep inviting them and also be willing to give nos. It's kind of telling of how healthy a friendship is if you can give and receive no's in a way that doesn't just cut off the friendship or make it so that you're no longer interested in hanging out. Because life happens. Kids do get sick. Cars do break down. Some weeks are just too crazy. We have to just keep pursuing one another. 
 
I would also say that the currency of friendship in this season is really in your favor because little things like a text that might have not meant very much before you had children suddenly mean the world. I know that if someone, especially someone with children, reaches out to me, just a simple text, hey, I'm thinking of you, maybe they saw something funny or maybe I just came to mind and they wanted to let me know I prayed for you this morning. 
 
I know that in order to send that text, they stopped what they were doing, they took time away from their to-do list, their children, their chance to relax, to reach out to me. [00:24:18] Even though a text isn't an extremely difficult thing to send and to produce, it still means so much to me that they would take that precious time out of their day to do that. 
 
So know that little things matter. It may seem like, "Ah, she's not gonna care if I text her or putting a card in the mail. You know, what's that compared to being able to hang out and go to dinner together?" It's huge. It really is huge. And the big things like going out to dinner, a girl's getaway, a spa trip, those are awesome. And the more those can happen, fantastic. But in the between, and there's a lot of between, the simple things are so huge. So don't be discouraged. Be encouraged to pursue people in whatever way you can. 
 
Laura Dugger: You're in such a unique stage where you're a homeschooling mom and you have creative outlets and a thriving business that you're a part of. So how many relationships are you feeling like you're able to foster well in this season? 
 
April Hoss: What a good question. Foster well, too. You're making me really think through this. [00:25:20] I would say, like a lot of people, I have my core, what I would call my 3 a.m. group. So the people that you know, you could call at 2 a.m. and say, I know this is crazy, but the car broke down. It's dark. I'm on a mountain road. Can you come help us? And at 2 a.m., they would be there for you. 
 
Those are the relationships I would say I have... If I wrote down all the names, it would not fill up two pages. Probably a page of names that I would put on that 3 a.m. list. But those are the people that we try to say yes to as much as we can. So if their kids are having a birthday party, we're going to RSVP yes. If they invite us for dinner, even if we absolutely can't go on the Wednesday they invited us, we're looking at our calendar, "We can't be there this Wednesday. Could we try for next Tuesday? What do you have going on Friday?" So those are the friendships that we're really flexing for and trying to make work. 
 
But honestly, I don't know that it's possible to have 40 of those. I don't know that it's possible to have 20 of those in some seasons of life. I think it's totally okay to have a small handful of super close friends and you don't have to feel like maybe everyone else has 10 close friends and I only have three or maybe everyone else has... you know, everyone that they follow on Instagram is actually really close with them. Probably not. [00:26:36] And that's okay. 
 
There's going to be seasons where your kids are in school or you suddenly have more time and you're able to broaden that friend group. I think you are tremendously blessed if you have two or three friends that you know you could lean on in any situation. That's huge. So my friend list isn't terribly, terribly long, but those are the people that I want to say yes to as much as possible. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that real picture. I've heard you say before that you're an introvert and I'm an extreme extrovert. So I think maybe listeners could relate to one of us.
 
April Hoss: Yes.
 
Laura Dugger: But what does your ideal week look like? 
 
April Hoss: My ideal week and the weeks that I actually have are a bit different. I have to say that I am definitely an introvert, but as I've gotten older, I've tried really hard not to let my preference for introversion impede friendships or community. [00:27:36] 
 
I don't know if you've seen those shirts online that say something like, "I'm sorry I'm late, I didn't want to come." When I first saw those, I thought, "How did they read my mind? I think that all the time. I just wanted to stay home and read a book. I just wanted to curl up on the couch and watch Netflix." Going out... I'm an introvert, I'm a homebody, I'm all the stereotypes. I would rather have my nose in a book and a coffee in my hand than probably go out to dinner with a large group. My preference is to do the things that are at home and quiet. 
 
However, I don't really long-term want to live that way. So on a single Friday, that may sound like the better option. But I don't want to look back on my life of Fridays and think, well, I read a lot by myself. I want to foster relationships and have friendships. So I sort of fight against my ideal week. 
 
My husband is more extroverted than I am and friendships and staying connected with people at church and engaging with people, those are things that are priorities to him. In my mind, because I am an introvert, even though I do want that, I don't always think about it the way he does. I appreciate people like him and like you who are extroverted because it's just a totally different way of operating. [00:28:50] 
 
So if he says, "You know, we should have so-and-so over for dinner," or... he just actually a couple days ago, said to me, "Our fall is beginning, and what if we made an effort to have these five people over between now and New Year's?" And my thought was, "[Gasps] Really? You know how much I could just read during that time or how much we could just relax during that time?" And my second thought was, "Say yes, say yes." Because if he didn't suggest it, I certainly would have never cooked up that idea to have these couples and their kids over for dinner. But I'm glad that he did. 
 
So my ideal week looks like me saying yes when I want to say no. And then, I kid you not, for all the introverts out there, this is true, I've never come home and thought, Man, I really wish I would have just said no. I always think, "I'm glad I went, even though it was hard, even though I kept thinking about how relaxing it would be to not do the social thing, every time I do it, I am so glad that I pushed myself and I did it. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's awesome to hear. [00:29:49] And just to get a glimpse into somebody who... I do feel like we're maybe opposite in that way. It's really helpful because my husband and I are both extroverts and we're both initiators and pursuers. So we love to host. And I've wondered before, like with our introverted friends, does that feel overwhelming to them or do they wish we wouldn't reach out so often? But that's great to hear you say, like, you don't regret it once you're there, even if it does take effort. 
 
April Hoss: No, no. And when people reach out, because it doesn't always occur to me first, I don't know, I don't want to speak for all introverts, but I think there's a camp of us who are really touched by that because we think, Oh, I just admire extroverts so much. I would go as far to say this. In some ways, I think extroverts are just more admirable because you guys do have a heart for people and a heart for connection. 
 
Introverts sometimes have a heart for cocoa and a novel. That's great, but I don't know how admirable it is. So I would encourage you to keep reaching out because I bet it means a lot to your introverted friends. [00:30:50] 
 
Laura Dugger: Aw, thanks for saying that. And I very much admire introverts. And sometimes I say, when I grow up, maybe I'll be more like that. But it's great. We can all bring something different to the table. 
 
April Hoss: It's true. That is true. 
 
Laura Dugger: By now, I'm sure that you've heard us talk about Patreon. I just want to give a simple reminder of each of the levels of contribution available. 
 
For $2 per month, you're going to receive a free quarterly downloadable scripture card. For $5 a month, you get the perks of the $2 contribution plus access to extra podcasts that are only available to our patrons. For $20 a month, you get all of these incredible perks and one Savvy Sauce pop socket. We hope you consider joining today. Visit us at thesavvysauce.com and click on our Patreon tab for more information. Thanks for participating. 
 
One topic that you say you and your husband love is meal planning. So what easy ideas do you have for feeding your family? [00:31:50] 
 
April Hoss: Oh, well, if I was talking to someone who was totally novice or totally afraid, I would say my first two tips for feeding your family are be fearless. The worst that can happen is you'll order pizza. It's okay. That's totally okay. If the recipe is just a disaster, no one likes it, the thing burns in the oven, it'll be okay. 
 
The second thing I would say is make it as joyful as possible. So if you're intimidated by the kitchen, by cooking, by the amount of time, by the work after, which no one likes, I would ask, what can you do that makes it fun for you? Could you make sure you always have a drink that you enjoy, whether that's a glass of wine, a La Croix, just something that you like. Drink that while you're cooking. Can you light the candle that you always save for a special occasion? Light it while you're washing the dishes. Turn on music that you love or a podcast. Or maybe that's the one time you don't have any noise going on. Just enjoy the sound of pots and pans and sizzling and make it joyful. 
 
If we go into it like it's drudgery, it will definitely become drudgery because there are a lot of just unpleasant parts about it. Sometimes it feels like, if I have to chop one more piece of chicken breast, or really? This food was so delicious, but now I just want to sit down and unwind and I didn't realize I would have 57 things that needed hand washing. [00:33:12] 
 
So try to make those tasks that are the biggest pain points for you joyful and then go for it. I mean, it is such a huge world as far as the amount of cookbooks and now the amount of food blogs. And then there's all of the recipes that are on Pinterest. And you can follow food bloggers on Instagram. You don't even have to go to their blog. They're posting the recipes right there. 
 
So just pick what kind of medium you'll most connect with and start cooking a couple recipes. And if you like a couple of them, you might like everything that that blogger or that food writer is putting, so maybe follow them. Set a goal. I'll cook one recipe a week from this blog, and the rest will be what we're already doing, and maybe in six months will expand to two recipes a week. And you might find that you really enjoy it. 
 
Laura Dugger: These are great practical tips. So what are some of your actual go-to breakfast, snack, lunch options, etc.? 
 
April Hoss: So I'm pretty sneaky as a mom because I'm always looking for ways to make things a lot more nutrient-dense than they might appear than they were. [00:34:20] So baked goods are a great go-to. You can keep muffins in the freezer and heat them up pretty quickly. And you can also put a lot of healthy stuff in muffins. 
 
So when I'm really on my game, I try to make a big batch of muffins or breakfast cookies on a Saturday. And then during the week, it is so easy for me to pull them out. My kids think they're getting some kind of pastry. They have no idea they're eating sweet potatoes and chia seeds and maybe there's like little particles of zucchini in there. They have no clue. They think they're getting this delicious dessert. So, that's a big one. 
 
Lunch is still tricky for me. So, if anyone listening has lunch tips, please share them on Instagram. Lunch is kind of what I call our charcuterie time. So, lunch is usually very simple around here. That's when we're pulling out the string cheese, the yogurt, the fresh fruit, just picnicky food. I'm usually not cooking lunch unless we happen to have leftovers. [00:35:18] 
 
And then dinner is... it could be anything. When I say be fearless, I'm saying that because I think sometimes I might be a little too fearless and I will try to cook things that are way above my culinary pay grade at this point. But one thing that I do very regularly is I use my slow cooker. It's probably my best nonliving friend. I have such a close relationship with that thing because there are so many wonderful recipes out there now. 
 
It's not like it was, I think, when I was growing up and my mom probably had a very limited amount of slow cooker recipes available. There might have been a few cookbooks at Barnes and Noble in person that she could have chosen from. And now you type in slow cooker recipes to Pinterest and you could be there for hours or just to Google. And you can be so, so specific. 
 
So let's say you have a whole lot of frozen chicken breast from Costco and you think, Why did we buy this? What are we gonna do with this? Chicken breast is dry. Google that: slow cooker chicken breast recipes, slow cooker from frozen. I mean you can be so crazy specific and have delicious meals just bubbling away while you go about your day. [00:36:31] So I think that's really a great way to get acquainted with your kitchen and to get comfortable is to start with a slow cooker. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh yes, love the slow cooker. So we'll have to maybe link to a few of the recipes that you recommend. I'm always looking for new ones to try and I'm sure this would be a helpful place for some of our listeners to get started. So we'll link to that and maybe a muffin recipe as well. 
 
April Hoss: Oh, yes. Okay. I have one that I'm thinking of that I think will be mom-approved and really anybody-approved. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now to switch gears and kind of go a little bit deeper, you had mentioned earlier about your faith in Jesus. How does that faith actually inform the way that you're living your life? 
 
April Hoss: You ask really good questions. I don't know if anyone's ever told you that, but your questions are so... they really make me stop and think. They're fun to answer, but they're not just something I can just take a swing at it immediately. You give me pause in a really good way, so I've enjoyed this. 
 
Really kind of going back to my original story, that question sort of captures the problem that I had, which is that I grew up in church, I knew sort of the basic, the basic structure of the gospel, like Jesus died for my sins. And I kind of thought, and that's where the period is at the end of the Bible. Okay, great. And that's where I get to take communion and I got baptized, but here I am now, you know, in high school or college or as a new wife or trying out this career. [00:38:00] 
 
I was just living day to day uninformed by my faith. My faith was just almost like an ethnic heritage that felt very distant. Like my grandmother's Italian, so I guess I have some percentage of Italian, but it's not really affecting how I interact with this. My Italian heritage isn't affecting how I interact with a student or how I handle the situation with my husband. It's just kind of in my DNA. 
 
And that is where I think God shifted my thinking so much because I learned that it should affect everything I do. And at first, I thought it should affect the big things I do. Like, okay, it should affect how I interact with my husband in this conflict. It should affect the way I treat my students at school, or my fears about adoption, or how I walk through a miscarriage. These big things should be informed by my faith. 
 
But as I grew and as I matured as a Christian, I learned just from seeing people that were further along in the faith, it should really affect how I wash that dish or my attitude about the constant flow of laundry, or how I want to pursue excellence in whatever I take on, whether that's writing or even something like podcasting, whatever I do, gardening. [00:39:15] 
 
It doesn't mean that I want to pursue perfection or feel pressured to be perfect, but it should mean that I look at everything as a chance to honor God. So instead of feeling like this is now kind of enslaving me to a life of perfection, I am now free to just love it and enjoy it and say, I'm going to do this to your glory, God. 
 
Even something like washing a dish, which feels like pretty glory, glory-less, kind of void of glory, there's something to washing a dish with a cheerful heart and saying, Thank you, God, that we have dishes. And thank you, God, that we have a house full of people that are using these dishes. And thank you that if someone called right now and needed a meal, I would have something to serve them on. I've never not had anything to serve them on. You've always given us plates and you've always given us food to put on the plates and pretty soon I'm just moved with gratitude as I was scrubbing off that yucky cheese situation that was there. 
 
So my husband said to me recently, All of Christ in all of life. [00:40:15] That's not his originally, but I think it really kind of captures how I would answer that question that really in all of life, from the most mundane of activities to what would feel like maybe the most spiritual of activities, Christ is informing all things and is inviting me into joy and worship in all things. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is an incredible answer and such a good challenge to remember the attitude of gratitude. 
 
April Hoss: Yes, me too. It's challenging for me because, trust me, I am not always looking like, you know, Maria on the sound of music just twirling through the hills. There are days when I am not thinking about all of Christ as I go to do the dirty dish or the dirty diaper or fix the potted plant that is just not working out there. I am by no means excelling at this every day, but I try to come back to it as often as it comes to mind because I know it is an area that I could work on and that when I am thinking that way, my life is so much more joyful. [00:41:22]
 
Laura Dugger: Yes. And I'm sure it spills over to those around us if we're joyful. 
 
April Hoss: Yeah, I think so.
 
Laura Dugger: Then taking it to a more practical place, is there any scripture or specific spiritual discipline that helps keep you rooted and established in Christ as you live out all these other important roles? 
 
April Hoss: Well, that also, just to kind of go back to kind of where I was in college, was something that I think was a stumbling block for me is that I felt like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. So I grew up going to public school and then I went to a private Christian college and there were young people that I was around, other classmates who had gone to private Christian schools their whole life, had been homeschooled, had just been exposed to Christian culture more than I had, and I felt like they understood something that I didn't. So I would watch them a lot. 
 
Like maybe I'm supposed to sing in chapel like they sing in chapel, or this friend calls her time with God quiet time, but this one calls it devos, and I don't even really have a time with God. [00:42:25] So which route do I pick? Do I call it quiet time and do what she's doing? Or this friend has a prayer journal. I'd never even heard of prayer journals. 
 
So I was always searching for spiritual practice. I read a lot about spiritual disciplines. And it's funny because My faith was really weak and watered down and immature, but I wanted some kind of outside thing, like fix it. Like once I do this thing, then I'm going to have this deep connection to God. And that never happened and I tried a lot of these spiritual things that I saw people doing. 
 
What happened, what really changed was when I just got back to the basics, just read my Bible. And it doesn't necessarily have to be on a Bible reading plan. It doesn't have to be a huge amount every day. Maybe I get through one psalm. Maybe I get through half of a psalm because someone woke up early, someone started crying. Pray. Try to just pray as much as I can every single day. Sometimes as much as I can is I prayed for one kid. I have three. I prayed for just one of the kids. [00:43:27] 
 
Something someone said to me is that God knows that newborns don't sleep. It's not a surprise to Him. He knows how exhausted you are. He doesn't expect you to live like a monk. He put you in this season, this really intense season of motherhood. He did not put you as a single person in seminary. So, you can't possibly do the same amount that maybe someone else in a totally different season is doing. What I do probably looks so much different than the 60-year-old woman next to me at church who's an empty nester, isn't working. It's okay. It's okay. 
 
Just the simple basic things. I read my Bible. I pray. Some days it looks pretty minimal. Some days, everyone sleeps in and it's great. It doesn't always involve the perfect coffee and the perfect candle as much as I wish it did, as much as I want that, too, I want that really cozy scene. 
 
Sometimes I'm telling the kids, I can't talk to you right now. I'm going to read my Bible. I didn't get to this morning. And they're still saying, Okay, when's breakfast? He broke my magnet tile tower. There's chaos. There's such chaos. [00:44:32] 
 
But someone else had encouraged me: God knew that was going to happen. God knows what five-year-olds are like. It's okay. And I have grown more in just reading my Bible and praying than I ever did seeking these other things that I saw other people doing that I thought were going to be my ticket to connection with God. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good and freeing. Just back to the basics. April, this time has just been so great. If listeners want to hear more from you, where can they find you online? 
 
April Hoss: Oh, well, I have my motherhood essays live on the Coffee + Crumbs website and you can find our podcast there as well. And I'm hoping that very soon you can find me in a bookstore or on Amazon. I just finished a book. And so my next job in this season is to try to find a literary agent and seek representation that way. So I'm hoping in the next year or two to have a book published. We'll see what happens.[00:45:31] 
 
Laura Dugger: That is so exciting. Congratulations. 
 
April Hoss: Thank you so much. I'm really just so happy to be done. So happy to be done. So I'm excited to see what happens next too. 
 
Laura Dugger: Do you know what it will be called yet or what we can be looking out for? 
 
April Hoss: You are the first person to ask that, actually. That's so funny. Yes, so my book is called The Sound of Arrows, and it's a fantasy novel. Like I said, I'd like to think that this time next year you could walk into a bookstore and get it, but we'll see what God has in store.
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. For the final question, our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight, and we want to know your most beneficial and practical habits that we can replicate. So April, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
April Hoss: I would say bringing a sense of humor into any situation. This is not a personal story, but it's a story that I think about often when I'm struggling to bring any kind of humor into a situation. [00:46:33] One of my favorite authors is Indy Wilson. In his book, I can't remember if it was Notes from the Tilt-a-Whirl or Death by Living, but in one of those books, he talks about how his entire family came down with a stomach flu, he has five children, he and his wife, came down with a stomach flu after his wife had tried this new Sloppy Joe's recipe. 
 
So, it was like the worst possible time for people to be getting sick because they had just eaten this huge meal that was not the kind of thing you want to clean up in that situation. And in the middle of the night as he and his wife are passing each other in the hall, one's doing laundry and one's got a bath running for one of the kids that's sick, they just started laughing. Like of all nights, of all times, after we ate this meal that's pretty gross, when you think about it, to then throw up, this is when our whole family got sick. And it just became... like they had to wipe tears from their eyes in the hallway. They were laughing so hard. How did this happen? I think about that all the time when something's chaotic, something doesn't go well. 
 
Last summer, I had a really little baby and two little kids. [00:47:35] And as I was unloading our van to meet friends at a smoothie shop, a truck just ran over our stroller. Thank God it was empty. But he just was in the parking lot and I wasn't moving fast enough, so he just ran over our stroller. So I am schlepping these kids. It is summer in Southern California, so I don't know, probably 109 degrees. And I'm just laughing the whole way up like, how does that happen? How are people actually running over strollers? They're in such a hurry that they would do that. 
 
It was one of those situations where I thought maybe I should just load the kids up and go back home and cry on the drive because I can't believe that happened and it's so terrible. And now we have to buy a new stroller. And instead, I thought, there's actually some humor in this because that was such a nutty thing to witness. And now I'm sure I look like the most sweaty tornado-blown woman that ever showed up to this store because I've got these three kids and a bag and nothing to help me. 
 
And it was that story about the stomach flu and laughing themselves to tears in the hallway that kind of motivated me. So that has been my savvy sauce. [00:48:39] Since I read that, it's just, can I laugh? Is there anything about this that I can laugh about? And when I'm able to laugh, usually it's not... It takes the edge off for sure. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's such good advice and so applicable. April, you're just very easy to talk to and you're clearly so humble. And with all of your achievements, it seems that just doesn't go to your head or make you conceited. And instead you're such a gracious person and it sounds like you're an incredible mama. So keep it up and thank you for joining us today. 
 
April Hoss: Thank you so, so much for inviting me. I have been telling people for a couple weeks I'm so excited to do this show and I found your Instagram so this has been really my honor and my thrill. I can't wait to share it on my own Instagram and I'm sure we'll link to it also in the Coffee + Crumbs newsletter so I know there'll be other episodes that our listeners want to hear from your show as well. 
 
Laura Dugger: That'd be awesome. We'll definitely connect that way. Thank you again. 
 
April Hoss: Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Thank you so much. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? [00:49:41] It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:50:42] 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:51:43] 
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:52:41] 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

42 Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

42. Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Jeremiah 1:5 (a) NIV “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;"
 
Beth McCord is the founder of Your Enneagram Coach. She has been an Enneagram speaker, coach and teacher for over 15 years. Beth is passionate about coming alongside individuals and helping them re-write their story, allowing them to see that lasting change, meaningful relationships, and a life of deep purpose is possible. This passion is what drove her to create this community, a safe place for individuals to explore the Enneagram.Beth is now leading the industry in simplifying the deep truths of the Enneagram from a Biblical perspective. Beth's passion is to make the Enneagram accessible for everyone, anywhere, so they can experience the transformation they long for. This includes one-on-one coaching, in-person events and workshops and online courses. She also offers training and support for those interested in becoming an Enneagram coach. At home, Beth's favorite hobbies are studying and producing helpful Enneagram resources, fly fishing, and driving through the beautiful hillsides of Tennessee with her family. Beth lives outside of Nashville and has been married to her best friend, Jeff, for 22 years (Type 6, Loyal Guardian). They have two teenage children (a Type 6, Loyal Guardian and a Type 2, Supportive Advisor). Combining the gospel and the Enneagram has been instrumental in Beth and Jeff's marriage and parenting.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Boundaries for the Soul by Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller 
 
Beth’s Website 
 
Connect with Beth on Instagram @yourenneagramcoach 
 
Beth’s Free assessment
 
Beth is offering The Savvy Sauce listeners $10 off either Discovering You or Exploring You when  you use the code: 10OFF.  The Discovering You course is also INSIDE Exploring You so we encourage that option!
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
I'm so excited to share today's guest, Beth McCord. Beth is an Enneagram coach and she offers various courses online. She has such a warm personality. We're going to cover all personality types and see how they help us understand ourselves and others better, all under the umbrella of the gospel. Here's our chat. 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Beth. 
Beth McCord: Hey, thanks. Glad to be here. 
Laura Dugger: Can you just start us off by giving a quick snapshot of your life? 
Beth McCord: Oh, yeah, sure. So I am married to Jeff, and we've been married... 23 years? Yeah, 23 years. And we have two kids. Nate is 20 and a sophomore in college and a type six. When we get to that, people will understand. [00:01:21] Then my daughter is a 18-year-old freshman in college and she is a type two. 
So we live in Nashville, Tennessee, or just outside of it. My husband is an executive pastor outside of Nashville, and he has been in the ministry for twenty-two years, I guess. We have traveled kind of the Midwest area between Kansas City, St. Louis, central Illinois, and now Nashville.
So our kids are grown, and we're really just diving into helping people to understand who they are in Christ through the lens of the Enneagram. Meaning, why do they do what they do? Where are they struggling? How can they become more like Christ? And what's preventing them or keeping them from that? So that's kind of what we're doing these days, and we're really enjoying it. 
Laura Dugger: I think it's such a fascinating work. Some people who are listening may love personality tests like we do, and some may loathe them. So let's just lay the foundation. Why do you think that it's important to both understand and apply the Enneagram? [00:02:29] 
Beth McCord: You know, I think all personality assessments are great in a sense. I mean, I'm sure maybe not all. I don't know all of them. But in general, it's just really good to get to know ourselves. But they're all going to be very different. And they all have different strengths and probably weaknesses to them all. 
The reason why I focus on the Enneagram and why I think it's really important, especially as a believer, is that God cares about our heart, not just the outward manifestations, because it's the outward manifestations that reveals our heart. And that's what He's trying to get to, and He wants our heart to become more like Christ. 
Well, so many of us don't even know why we do what we do. Like, why do we think something, feel something, or react a certain way, behave a certain way? I mean, we kind of know on the surface, but do we really know what drove that? What was the motivation behind that? 
What I would contend is most of the time we really don't. Usually, when I'm working with clients, we'll talk about a specific topic and they'll give me a reason, but it's usually still the top of the iceberg. [00:03:30] They don't realize it, but it's not getting to the core motivation. And that's where the Enneagram is so helpful, because it brings astonishing clarity to why we do what we do. 
When we can get to the why, plus bringing the gospel, then we can fully see ourselves for who we are without shame, self-condemnation, and fear, because that's been taken care of by Christ. We can look at our heart for really what it is and bring it back to Christ and experience His unconditional love, forgiveness, and the freedom we have in Him. 
Laura Dugger: You're kind of already alluding to this, but just specifically, how does the Enneagram help us to understand more about ourselves, our God, and the gospel? 
Beth McCord: Yeah, so how it helps us to understand ourselves. Think about the Enneagram as, let's say, an internal GPS. So, you have your current location, which is your main type, and your main personality type has a healthiest destination for it, which what we would say is being aligned with the gospel or understanding your true identity in Christ. [00:04:35] 
That's where we want to go, right? But so often we fall asleep, we get distracted, and we start veering off our best path. We keep falling into these pitfalls on the side of the road and get stuck, and we don't understand why we keep doing it. The Enneagram is going to help us to understand this "why" so that we can... What I always tell people, it's kind of like we're putting rumble strips on the highway. You know, those things on the side of the highway that when you hit them, they go da, da, da, da. Well, we want the Enneagram to be utilized in that way. 
The Enneagram itself is just a tool. It's just showing us where our heart is and how we're doing. It's not the transformation. The transformation is the gospel. But the Enneagram is going to help you to know if you're going to fall into that pitfall again or if you're actually on your best path. You're leaning on Christ. You're trusting in Him. 
So we want the Enneagram to do that so that you know really how you're doing. Now, how that will help you with your relationship with God, I think is pretty clear. But it lets you know, wow, the Lord has done really great work in me, and now I'm experiencing a deeper and more freeing relationship with Him. [00:05:46] 
But even if we're not, let's say we keep falling into that same pitfall, we don't have to have the self-condemnation, fear, and shame that our flesh wants to, and especially the one that doesn't want us to live in our identity in Christ. He is constantly beating us up. 
So with that, what we can do is say, you know, wait, hold on a second. I don't have to beat myself up here. I don't have to have the shame and self-condemnation and fear. Even though I'm still in this ditch and I'm stuck in mud and I can't get out, I can still surrender and depend on the Holy Spirit because He's the one that pulls me out and He's the one that gets me back on my right path, not me. That's where the real freedom comes. 
This isn't about pull yourself up by your bootstraps, figure it out, get on your best path, then God will love you. No, He's already loved you, and He still continues to advocate for us. And so that's how our relationship with Christ can become more deep and real.
Then with others, what's amazing about the Enneagram is not only does it reveal why you do what you do, but you have the ability now to understand others in a very deep and real way so that you can have compassion and understanding, mercy, grace, and hopefully forgiveness and then a way to communicate with one another that hopefully has less conflict and more reconciliation. [00:07:05] 
Laura Dugger: You've just laid out such a clear vision already. So is there anything else that you want to explain before we learn about each specific number? 
Beth McCord: You know, what I would say is none of the numbers are gender specific. There's not one number that's more female or male. Also, there's not one number that's better than the other. They're all equal in their amazing reflective qualities of God, because God created us all to reflect Him. But on this side of heaven, we also have our great weaknesses, and every type at their worst is the worst, and every type at their best is the best. So no one gets a prize for being better or worse. The whole focus is how can we all unify in our diversity to glorify God. And so we just want to make sure that we're lifting every number up. 
Now, at times, certain numbers might irritate your personality type. But that doesn't mean that they are less than or worse. It just means that we, who are irritated, need to learn to extend understanding, grace, and compassion to become a more secure and unified body of Christ. [00:08:12] 
Laura Dugger: Okay, now everybody is probably so curious about what their own number is. So let's just dive in and cover numbers one through nine in depth. 
Beth McCord: Great. So what I'll do is the way to find your type is to find your core motivations, the things that drive why you think, feel, and behave in the ways you do. These core motivations are going to peel back all of the behaviors that people see or that you even see in yourself. It gets to the core, and that's why we call it the core motivations. 
There's the core fear. This is the thing that you're always running away from. This cannot happen. You have a core desire. You think, if I could just obtain this, then everything will be bliss and perfect. You have a core weakness. The core weakness is kind of like the thorn in our side or our Achilles heel. It's that thing that is always tripping us up. It creates a weakness in us. But God is our strength, even in our weakness. [00:09:11] 
Then we have the core longing. The core longing is the message that your heart has always longed to hear from, let's say, your parents at first, and then teachers, coaches, then your spouse, and maybe your children, and your work. This is where Christ has actually answered it. And when we rest in His provision for this, we no longer are trying to manipulate or coerce or demand it from others. We get to allow Christ's message to us to fill us up. And then everyone else, if they do give it to us, it's a bonus on top.
So those are the four elements that we're going to really focus on. We won't get into it at this very moment, but you might find that like, well, I kind of see myself in two types or three types. That's perfectly normal. There's lots of reasons for that. But we're wanting to find the one that is your absolute core, why you do what you do. So be listening for that.
So we'll just dive in and I'll tell you the core motivations and maybe give just a little insight on each of these types, just to kind of help clarify. The type one is the moral perfectionist. And the type ones fear being wrong, bad, evil, inappropriate, corruptible, unredeemable. They desire to have integrity, to be right, virtuous, to basically be the good girl or the good boy. This has to do with right and wrong, ethics, morals, procedures, standards, policies, those kinds of things. [00:10:38] 
Now, there are other types that want to do what's right or do what's good, but this gets down to the real core of ethics. So their weakness, the type one, the core weakness is resentment. Now, this is anger that's really been repressed. Because they have this constant frustration and dissatisfaction with themselves, others, and the world. Because it's not perfect. They can see it.
In fact, it's not that moral perfectionists are walking around looking for imperfections. It leaps out at them and assaults them. And they're constantly being bombarded by these imperfections and they think everyone has the same scenario happening. And so when someone steps over a piece of trash or something, they don't fix something, they get resentful. Like, are you just leaving this for me to do? 
Now, the other person may not have seen it at all or could care less. It doesn't bother them. But the type one thinks everyone is like them and has this really loud berating, one loud inner critic that is constantly telling them to do this, do that. This is wrong. You should do this. They should do that. [00:11:47] And they think everyone else has that, and so they feel resentful that they have to be the adult in the group or in the family or in the workplace to get everything done right. And that's where their resentment comes in. 
Now, their core longing, the message that their heart has always longed to hear, is for someone to tell them, you are good. But that's what Christ has answered for them, and not because they were good, but God can say you are good because of Christ in them, because of His finished work, His righteousness put on them. That's what God is looking at. So it gives the freedom for the one to rest in Christ's righteousness and to know that they're safe and secure in that. 
The Type 2 is a supportive advisor, and they fear being worthless, needy, inconsequential, dispensable, disposed, and definitely not being worthy of being loved and wanted. What they desire is to be appreciated, wanted, and loved. Their core weakness is pride, and this is the inability or unwillingness to acknowledge their own suffering and needs, but instead what they do is they focus on the needs of others and then they confidently insert their help and advice into someone else's life, whether it was asked for or not. [00:13:03]
The reason that they'll do that is they want to hear gratitude, affirmation, encouragement, thankfulness, because those things represent to them that they're valuable, wanted, and loved. So the core longing that they have always wanted to hear is you are wanted and loved for just being you. You don't have to serve or support or give anymore. You can just rest in Christ's accomplishments. That is so amazing. If a type two can rest in that, they will be so filled up. And they're still going to be giving and serving, but it's going to be out of an overflow versus desperately needing someone to give them the affirmation or the gratitude that they think they must have.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that makes sense. And just to clarify, I'm trying to envision people that I know who have said they're twos. Is it really shocking to them when they discover that pride is... how do you describe it? 
Beth McCord: The core weakness. In other circles, it's called the deadly sin or the passion. But I kind of like the core weakness because it really talks about that thorn in our side that just won't go away. But yes, sometimes twos are shocked by it, and then other twos aren't as much. I think it depends on how aware they are. 
And some type nines will think they're a two, and those are probably the ones that are really shocked. The difference between, and we'll get into this a little bit later, the difference between a nine and a two is the nines are there to accommodate. So they're waiting for someone to tell them how to help them. They're not going to insert their help. Whereas the twos know other people's feelings and needs and they insert their help quite confidently. Especially when they're not doing well, or they feel that they're unloved and unwanted, they'll ramp up their help and support and advice giving in order to get the affirmation and value that they think they need. [00:14:55] 
So Twos, they have this instinct to know what other people need and their feelings. So in a sense, they have this pride, like, no, I really do know what you need. And it could be true, but it doesn't mean others really want it. So they can overstep their bounds. And so, yes, on one side, they don't want to admit it because admitting it means, well, then maybe I won't be valued or wanted if someone sees my weakness. At the same time, a lot of them are like, But no, it's true, I do know what they need. So it's kind of this mixed bag. 
Laura Dugger: Interesting. Okay. And now what about threes? 
Beth McCord: So type three, the successful achiever, they fear failing, being incompetent, inefficient, exposed, unsuccessful, and definitely not appearing like having a high status or high regard. So, what they desire is to be valuable, admired, and respected. So, for them, it is all about image. What do other people see? Are they achieving? Are they successful? Are they admired? [00:15:56] 
Now, the core weakness of the three is deceit. What this really means in the Enneagram is that threes deceive themselves into believing that they're only the image that they present to others through success and achievements. So it's similar to, let's say, a placekicker in football. There's a saying that says, you're as good as your last kick. Well, for the three, you're as good as your last success. So they're constantly coming up with new goals and strategies and tasks and projects to check it off the list. And when they can check it off the list and they've done a good job, or at least it appears they've done a good job, then they feel okay and safe and secure because it's all about other people seeing that they have value. 
So what they would love to hear, their core longing, is you are loved and valued for being just yourself. You do not need to achieve my love. And so the threes are shocked when they hear this. What? I don't have to achieve it? I don't have to earn it? No. Especially with Christ. He accomplished everything on your behalf and gave it to you. [00:17:02] So your perfect accomplishments are literally His perfect accomplishments. And that's what you get to rest in now. So you get to still achieve and be successful, but it's now out of an overflow instead of a desperate need for the heart. 
Laura Dugger: I love hearing the freedom with each of these. It's great. 
Beth McCord: Yeah. So our type four, the romantic individualist. Their core fear is being inadequate, emotionally cut off, plain and mundane. They feel defective and flawed and they fear not having significance. So what they desire is to be their authentic self, unique, special, and different. 
Now, their core weakness is envy. And how this plays out is that they feel that there's something fundamentally missing in them or something that's defective and flawed. And this leads them to have envy that others have possessions or qualities that they lack. So they long for what is missing and they try to become unique in a certain way, hoping that others won't see the flaws or the defects that they think they have and that others will be enamored by their uniqueness and therefore love them for that. [00:18:14] 
So what they long to hear is "you are loved and seen for exactly who you are, special and unique". So, we want them to realize God knows you intimately. He's the one that created you. He created you special and unique to be you. You don't have to become more unique or the most unique. You are simply loved for being who you are. And that's what we want for us to know. 
Laura Dugger: And maybe this is stereotyping too much, but is it common for a 4 to be in a really creative career? 
Beth McCord: The fours are very creative. All types can be creative. And 4s and 7s typically are kind of seen as the creative types, but all of them can be, obviously. But they do love to express themselves uniquely in some form of creativity or art. Now, when I say that, that is a wide-open field. 
We had a senior pastor in central Illinois that my husband was an associate pastor under him, and he was a type four. And for him, his sermons are his work of art. [00:19:19] It's the expression of himself in his uniqueness. So it can be in a lot of varieties, but yes, they want to basically give the world their unique self in some form of creativity. 
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 
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Laura Dugger: And what about fives? 
Beth McCord: So the type five is the investigative thinker and they fear annihilation, being ignorant, invaded, incapable, not existing, or obligations placed upon them and being overwhelmed. They desire to be capable and competent and having a lot of knowledge about pretty much everything. Now, they usually specialize in one field, but the more knowledge to them, the better. And the lack of knowledge is where the fears come in. 
The core weakness of the five is avarice. Now, avarice can usually mean like being greedy with money, but that's not what this means. This is that they feel they lack inner resources and that too much interaction with others will lead to catastrophic depletion, which leads them to withhold themselves from being in contact with others. [00:21:38] So what they'll do is they'll kind of hoard or hold on to their resources and minimize their needs because they fear that if they need others, that interaction, too much of it can lead to this catastrophic depletion. 
It can sound extreme for those that aren't fives, but this is like taking introversion to the next level. And it's not just that they're introverts. This has to do more with just this energy resource. Because most fives are introverted, but there's a lot of social fives, but they still all need this time to plug in. And where they plug in to get recharged is by being alone and being able to process their thoughts and their feelings. 
So what you'll find is type fives usually have a secret, secret place that they like to get away to do this recharging. If they can't, they will try to maybe put AirPods in their ears or headphones. Maybe they'll read a book in a corner. They'll somehow quote-unquote, get away to recharge and to be alone. [00:22:41] 
And when anyone interrupts that or intrudes in that space, it's almost like they have to start all over again. It depletes it quickly. So they need to get away because if they don't, they're not able to process their thoughts and their feelings well enough to then feel confident to say what needs to be said. 
A lot of people can think this means they're not people people, they don't like people. That's not it at all. This has to do with their energy resources. So just being mindful of how much battery life they have and do they need to recharge and working with a five on that will be immensely helpful to them. 
Now, what they long to hear is your needs are not a problem. The reason why that's so important for fives is they literally think that their needs are like these big boulders that if they ask them when they're handing a big boulder over and how is that person going to carry it? It's going to be too big. It's too much. And so they want to minimize their needs so that, one, they can take care of themselves, but two, they don't have to burden others. So they would love to know that their needs are not a problem. [00:23:45] 
Well, of course, their needs are not a problem. God knows their needs and knows exactly how to be there and deliver and replenish their energy resources. 
Laura Dugger: And I'm curious, too, something that you had mentioned, that fear comes in maybe when they don't know all the answers. Do fives find it very life-giving to research things? 
Beth McCord: Yes, very much. They're great researchers and they're great observers. They observe things that you think they're not even observing. You might be thinking they're playing a video game or reading a book, but they are really taking in everything and to the point where it's exhausting for them. It really depletes them. And that's why they need that alone time as well. 
But yes, they love to research information so that they'll feel capable and confident to then make a confident decision or move in a direction. But the problem with that is, as you know, and I know, there's a never-ending supply of information. So, when is it that they're going to feel they have enough to make that decision? That's where they can get hung up. 
Laura Dugger: Oh, okay. Okay, now sixes. 
Beth McCord: Yeah, so type six is the loyal guardian, and they fear fear itself being without support or guidance, being alone, blamed, targeted, and physically abandoned. And what they're really desiring is to have security, guidance, and support. Now, their core weakness is anxiety, and this is a constant scanning and preparing for either worst-case scenarios or just anything that could go wrong. It doesn't always have to be the worst, but just anything. [00:25:15] 
So they have an inner committee. Whereas the Type 1 has one loud inner critic, the sixes have an internal committee that are chiming in from all different perspectives. So what about this? What about that? But did you remember this? But did you consider that? You know, so they're all chiming in, which makes it very confusing for the six to know how to move forward. Which one should I listen to? What direction should I go? So there's a lot of self-doubt and not trusting themselves because of this internal kind of chaos and possibilities.
So they look for mentors or support system or belief system outside them that they can listen to and feel like they can trust and then move in that direction. So it could be also some researching, kind of like a five, but they're doing it to find an answer to feel safe and secure to move forward in and to know what's the right path to avoid this inner committee that's giving them too many options. [00:26:15] 
Laura Dugger: And I'm curious, to take it one step further, the sixes then, after they make a decision, what happens to that whole committee? 
Beth McCord: Oh yeah, then they doubt the decision because now they're going to start to think, Well, now this could happen, now that could happen. You know, like, did you realize that this could happen? Did you consider it? So it just continues this dialogue of what if, what if, what if. 
And that can just be really challenging for the six. My husband is a six, my mom and my son. And it's been really neat to watch them grow and to access different tools and resources in how to effectively navigate that inner committee and do it in a way that is honoring to how God designed them. 
Laura Dugger: I know a lot of sixes in my life as well. So what are some of those practical tips or resources that have been really meaningful to them? 
Beth McCord: Well, one that is meaningful for all of us to use, but especially sixes, is a counseling technique. [00:27:17] I'm not a counselor, I'm just a coach, but I have utilized this with a counselor. It's called internal family systems. It is a great way for the sixes and all of us to know the parts in us. 
It just happens that the sixes parts are pretty loud all the time. And when the sixes can learn what this inner committee is and who's chiming in and why, and to navigate that better and to not be so scared of it, but be kind of the mature adult of the group and listen to them and direct the group, that's a more effective way. So my husband calls it his team and he has team meetings. Like, who's upset? Who's maybe freaking out? Who's worried? And listening to them. It doesn't mean he has to believe them, but he can listen to them and guide them and guide the team. 
Beth McCord: There's a book we've read recently that we really love. It's called Boundaries for the Soul. The authors are Allison Cook and Katie Miller. It's just an excellent book really talking about this subject. So that'd be a great resource to dive into. [00:28:19] 
Laura Dugger: Okay, we'll link to that in the show notes.
Beth McCord: The core longing for the Six is they would love to hear someone say, you are safe. Of course, with Christ, they are safe, right? God is the cleft, the safety place, the place where we can go to be safe and secure. So for the six, Christ is exactly that for them. 
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This has been so helpful. Let's just keep going with the sevens. [00:29:20] 
Beth McCord: Great. Okay, so sevens are our entertaining optimists, and they fear being deprived, trapped in emotional pain, being limited, definitely being bored, or missing out on anything fun. What they're desiring is to be happy, satisfied, and fully content. 
Now, their core weakness is gluttony. This isn't just about food. This is an insatiable desire to fill oneself up with experiences and stimulation because they want to avoid this emotional pain and anxiety that they have inside. So what they do is they pursue a variety of positive stimulating ideas and activities so that they think by doing that, they're going to be fulfilled. 
But what happens is that they have this like empty bucket inside that they're trying to fill up and it has holes in it. So the more they try to fill, the more anxious they get to fill it and demand others to help them fill it, the more it just spills out at the end, the more desperate they get. But the more that they can be present in the moment, see the blessings they have and feel gratitude and savor it all, the more their holes get plugged up and the more they're going to feel satisfied and content. [00:30:30] 
And what they long to hear is, you will be taken care of. The reason why they feel that is not that, let's say, their parents didn't, you know, try. They may have really tried, but the sevens have this insatiable desire, like nobody can fill this bucket up because of those holes. So they think, "Well, I better take care of myself. I'm the only one that's going to figure this out." And that's just not true. Christ does take care of them. He's the spring of living water. He will replenish them and fill them up to the full. 
Laura Dugger: Definitely relate to that one. That's my number. 
Beth McCord: Oh, good. So that spoke to you? 
Laura Dugger: Yes, definitely. What about eights? 
Beth McCord: All right. So type eight is the protective challenger. Their core fear is being weak, powerless, harmed, controlled, manipulated, and definitely at the mercy of injustice. And what they're wanting to do is to protect themselves and anyone else that is at the mercy of injustice, that is innocent. Their core weakness is lust. And this isn't about relationship desires. This is a constant need for intensity, control, and exerting themselves by pushing themselves willfully on anything or anyone to get what they want. 
The eights I call snowplow. The reason why I use the snowplow analogy, and you're in the middle of Illinois, and I used to live in the middle of Illinois, and we very well know we have to have these massive diesel trucks that plow the snow off the highways and the major roads. [00:31:57] Because if we all got out there with our little snow shovels, or even the little trucks out there that have a little snow shovel on the front, it's just not going to do it. Not for the kind of snow we're talking about. We need these massive snowplows. So it's beautiful that they're a snowplow and that they can plow a path for others. 
The problem comes when the aides are so focused on what has to happen or what they desire or their needs that they focus on the end result that they're aiming for and they start plowing without seeing who's in front of them. And so they can nick cars on the road or plow straight over them and people are like, Hey, why are you being so intense or harsh? And the eights are like, what, what are you talking about? I'm just plowing. You know, why are you in the way? If you can't handle it, get out of the way.
What we want the eights to realize is we need your intensity, we need your power, but we need you to see the people in front of you and tell them to get behind you so that you can plow a path for them, which is ultimately really what an eight wants to do. And they're fantastic at it. But we need them to take a little bit more time and understanding the other types and to be in relationship with them versus against them, or to be kind of at odds, or being able to push forward too much. [00:33:12] So that's what we really want the eights to know. 
The core longing for the eight is to hear, you will not be betrayed. And the great news about that is that Christ was literally the most betrayed. And so he understands what that means to want that. But also when He says it, that you will not be betrayed or forsaken, He means it. And so eights can fully rest in the protection that Christ offers them. 
Laura Dugger: I've heard something before, I'd love to hear if this is true or not, that eights, sometimes people can experience them as being insensitive, but they typically have a soft spot for children and animals. Is that true? 
Beth McCord: It is, yeah. Well, eights actually really have some of the most tender hearts on the Enneagram, and that is why they have that tough exterior. Think about if your arm had a third-degree burn, you would do pretty much anything to protect it from someone bumping into it or harming it. That's what they're doing with this very tender heart. [00:34:13] They're putting on a very strong exterior so that no one can blindside them, betray them, harm them. 
And so it comes across to some as intense, intimidating, harsh, blunt, too direct, confrontational. But to them, they don't quite see it that way. A lot of times they're shocked when people describe them in those terms. They think they're being normal, maybe a little bit more than others, but not the way others perceive them. But you'll see this tender heart pop out mostly with the innocent, which usually could reflect with babies or children or animals, especially like little puppies and kitties. 
Anything that's innocent, and especially if they see anyone harming the innocent, you will definitely see an eight's power and strength come out viscerally immediately. So yes, they are very tender with those. 
Laura Dugger: Okay. And the final number, I believe, is your number. 
Beth McCord: It is. 
Laura Dugger: And it's also my husband's, so I'm biased, but I love nines. So let's learn about them. [00:35:19]
Beth McCord: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, this is my number. The type nines are the peaceful mediators. Our core fears have to do with being in any kind of conflict or tension, loveless, shut out of relationships, in any kind of discord, and definitely being overlooked. Now, what we're wanting is, our desire is to have inner stability and peace of mind. And just kind of stability everywhere, like everyone be happy, everyone be okay. That's what we're really looking for. 
The core weakness of the nine is sloth. And this is really the desire to not be affected by life. Basically, it's an unwillingness to be fully awake to themselves, whether it's their desires, needs, abilities, talents, all of it. Because when they can not focus on themselves, they can focus on others and make them happy. The thought is, if I can make everyone else happy and okay, then I can finally be okay and there's no tension. Everything's fine. 
So the nines will overlook themselves and merge with others and go along to get along thinking that's going to bring peace and harmony. But it doesn't. You know, it only perpetuates the problem. They don't think it's going to. [00:36:30] So really, the nines can lose their voice. They don't know what they want, why they want it. And so they're just going to merge. 
Now, what the nines really long for is to hear someone say or reflect that "your presence matters, your voice matters, you're important". Because they ultimately don't think they are, that's why they're willing to give up themselves and emerge with others, because they see others as more important than themselves. 
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting because being married to one and as a seven, it's very easy for me to talk a lot. I've noticed I'm very intentional to not interrupt my husband because it may take a little bit longer to get there in the conversation. But I feel like they have so much to offer and usually have something profound if you don't derail them. 
Beth McCord: Oh, totally true. But here's the thing, they have to believe it themselves. or they're not going to even show up. That's the work of the nine. The work of the nine is to realize that Christ created you and wants you and loves you because you matter to Him. [00:37:35] He came out of heaven and came to earth to live a perfect life, die a brutal death, and to raise again because you matter. It's only until us, nines, believe that and really live that out that will recognize my views, my voice, my thoughts, and desires matter just like anyone else, not more, but just like anyone else, and I need to share instead of hoard it. 
So usually what nines do is Deep down, we kind of know we have something to offer, but we question it like, No, I don't really matter. I shouldn't say anything. But deep down, there's like the Holy Spirit saying, no, speak, move forward, do this, do that. "I don't know." So we have to take a big step of faith and try new things. do something, be confident, assert ourselves, but super hard and very scary. And our personality is screaming at us the whole time, like, "Don't assert yourself. No one's going to care. This doesn't matter." [00:38:37] 
So we have to go against that and say, No, Christ has given me something special. I can't hoard it for only myself. I need to bless others by giving it away. And that's a really hard thing. But once we start seeing it blessing others, it gets a little bit easier because that's really ultimately what we want to do.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. And it seems like it would take a lot of courage for that first step, but it really is beneficial to others. And something else with the nines that I've noticed, you can correct me if it's just something I see in my husband or if it's common for nines, is that they really relate or they can understand all the other numbers and put themselves in others' shoes. 
Beth McCord: Yes. Our superpower is we know how to be with all the types, merge with their energy, enjoy what they enjoy for the most part. If a nine doesn't like something, they know it and everyone else is going to know it because they're not going to do it. So nines don't do what they don't want to do. We can be very stubborn. But other than that, if it's something that we're not like hardcore, we'll not do this, we're pretty open. And we'll try lots of things. And we'll merge with people's lives and enjoy it for the most part and go along to get along. 
So that allows us to really get to know all the types and also to really bring in some hard messages or some really good truths in a way that the other person can hear. [00:39:59] And I know that that's kind of one reason why God put me in this position is I get the honor to work with a lot of people and tell them things that are pretty honest and true. But as a nine, I know how to say it in a way that they can listen to it and feel honored and loved, instead of saying it in a way that would really hurt and isolate them and frustrate them and anger them. That's not going to do anyone any good. So we do have that ability. 
And if nines could kind of wake up and see, if we would just step out and bless the world, so much more peace and harmony and transformation would happen. So I'm calling all my nines out there to step out into it. It's really a wonderful thing to offer others. 
Laura Dugger: Yes, and you are great at that, Beth. There were just a few more follow-up questions. As I was thinking about the one, is it common for a lot of firstborns to be ones? 
Beth McCord: I wouldn't say that birth order is necessarily going to determine the type. [00:41:00] I do think birth order affects the type. Meaning, let's say if you're even a type 9, and you're a firstborn, you might be a little bit more assertive than a type 9 who is the baby of the family. I do think the birth order does affect it because the parents are kind of looking at the firstborn to be the mature one, to be the responsible one, to be a good example. 
Now, if you're a type 1 and the firstborn, that's a pretty heavy load because not only do you have your own inner critic, but most likely you've got either society's rules that you should be this perfect firstborn child to model perfection to the rest of the kids. Or your parents might even be saying it or hoping that you'll do it. And so it just kind of makes it... it reinforces that. So does that make sense? 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. That helps clarify. One more question. You mentioned a superpower for the nines. I am curious, for the sevens, is a superpower being able to initiate friendships or relationships?
Beth McCord: Yeah, definitely. I mean, sevens, their superpowers are connectivity. They are great at connecting people with other people and not really just for their own gain. In fact, it's probably for the gain of others. [00:42:18] My dad is a seven and he loves connecting different ministries to one another. They can see, oh, you over here who have this gifting or skill set, and you over here, you guys need each other. And he knows how to bring them together. And that is just a really beautiful quality that a seven can have. 
Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense. That gets me fired up to think about everybody connecting and maximizing the potential there. Just processing now what you've talked about and being a seven, when you want to be taken care of, I've noticed that in that way, if somebody would initiate friendship or connection with me, that's one way that it really communicates love. So I wonder if that's a seven thing as well.
Beth McCord: Absolutely. Yeah. So usually what you're going to see in people is what they're giving to you is what they really are hoping in return. They may not be thinking that or trying to communicate that, but it too is supporting, giving, being thoughtful, strategic in their gifts and ways of helping because they really want someone to be able to do that to them. [00:43:25] 
But unfortunately, usually, it doesn't happen for all of us. All of us feel that we're not getting in return what we're longing for and what we think we're giving others. Like, why don't they do that for me? The eights want to be protected. Well, they're protecting everyone else. 
That's why the Enneagram is so great because now as a nine, I can realize when I'm with my eight friends, it's not that they don't want peace and harmony, but they see it through a totally different lens. They see peace and harmony coming from strength and yummy offense and not the defense. Well, when I can recognize that, I can feel loved by them in the way that they bring it to me or the way they offer it to me, instead of demanding it in the way that I think it should be. And that helps us to then really have a deeper relationship with one another and a deeper respect. 
Laura Dugger: And definitely helps us to love others as well, going back to the original part, why this is so important.
Beth McCord: Right. 
Laura Dugger: I know that you've said before that sometimes every number wants the same end goal, but there's a different reason that drives the why behind it. [00:44:34] So can you give some illustrations?
Beth McCord: I was thinking about packing. So let's say everyone has to pack for a trip, all nine types. Why would they pack the way they pack is going to be different. And they're all going to think their way of packing is the right way. And so it's going to be kind of fun to look at the different ways of packing. 
Well, the type one is going to think through every single day and all the things that need to happen and what's the appropriate right tire. Then they're going to make sure it's probably pressed and folded in a way that's going to have the least amount of wrinkles so that hopefully when they get there, they have the right things for the right occasions so that they look appropriate and that it's right. 
The two, they're going to want to make sure that they bring anything extra for the people that they're visiting. So maybe a little gift, maybe a trinket, maybe a card, maybe a gift card to thank them for letting them stay there. So, anything that they can do that is thoughtful on the behalf of others as they get there is really going to be important for it, too. [00:45:38] 
The three is going to make sure that, one, they have the best, most efficient luggage, first of all, and then they're going to maximize the efficiency of that luggage by packing it in a very strategic way. But at the same time, making sure that whatever they're packing is definitely going to give them the most successful image so that people can really admire them. 
Now, the Type 4s, they're going to bring only those things that are authentic and true for them. They're not trying to pack in a way that everyone else packs. In fact, they're going to pack the way they want to pack and they're going to use a luggage that represents them well. Whether it is a kind of a standard luggage, they're going to make sure theirs is unique and reflects them. 
Same with the clothes that they're going to bring and anything else is going to reflect their own personal values and creativity. And they're hoping that others will see it and be like, "Oh my gosh, that's the coolest bag I've ever seen. Or I love that shirt. That is so unique. Where'd you get it?" That will really mean a lot to the fours. [00:46:40] 
Now the fives, they're going to probably research all the luggage that's available and find the one that is going to be the best for them. for the kinds of travels that they're going to be doing. Then they're going to bring definitely maybe like a Kindle or a laptop or an iPad or something that they can continue to doing reading and research along the way. But they're probably going to minimize their luggage. They're not going to have as much as some of the other types because they just don't want to be overwhelmed and intruded on their own space, even with their own luggage. 
The sixes, they're going to sit and think about all the things that could go wrong with this trip. And then they're going to plan strategically of what they should pack in order to avert all of those things. So is it going to rain? Is it going to snow? Is it going to be hot? Is it going to be cold? Well, what if someone gets hurt? Will they have... maybe they need a little safety kit, oh, even maybe a sewing kit, just in case. So all the things like that, they're going to think through and pack for their trip. [00:47:41] 
The sevens are going to definitely make sure that whatever they pack, they're able and ready for something fun. Like, okay, well, what if something fun comes up and I need my tennis shoes? Maybe I should pack my tennis shoes. Well, what about my yoga pants? Maybe something will come up. So the sevens are going to make sure that they're ready for the fun and not be limited. 
The eights, they don't want to be controlled by anyone to pack what others want them to pack. They're going to pack what they want to pack and that's it. So they're also going to be the ones that are going to push the limits on like the airlines. If they want something, they're going to try to pack it and try to get away with it. Not because they're, you know, trying to harm anyone or hurt anything, they just want what they want and they're going to go for it. 
Then the nines, we're going to pack one, anything comfy. anything easy, nothing over the top, and we're also going to be mindful of everyone we're going to be with and every situation we're going to be at to try to accommodate for all of it, which as you can already imagine, you feel like you're going crazy because how can you do that? But that's what the nines are going to do. Like, okay, well, I'm going to be with my aunts and uncles on this side of the family and they're a little bit more formal and traditional, but my other side of the family, whereas flannels. So they're going to probably try to find something in the middle so that everyone feels comfortable with them. [00:49:02] There you go, the nine types. 
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness, that's awesome. When you know people that are those numbers, it can be so funny when it's that accurate. We don't have enough time to dive into wings and triads and lines, but there's so much more for people to study. What resources do you recommend for them for further study and even just identifying their own number? 
Beth McCord: No, that's a great question because a lot of people think, oh, well, if I just find my type and read about that, I'm done. Well, that's not really what's going to bring the transformation you're longing for. What's going to bring transformation is understanding how the Enneagram works.
So like a GPS, you can look at a GPS, but that doesn't mean you're using it. With the Enneagram, we want you to learn how to use the features of your internal GPS. The best way to do that is called my Discovering You online course. That's going to take you through what is the Enneagram, how to use the Enneagram. Like you said, there's things called wings and triads and then there's these lines connecting all the different types. What are those? 
Those all help you to know, are you doing well, staying on your best path, or are you veering off course and falling in your common pitfall? So I'll explain all of that in that course, plus an overview of all nine types, kind of like we did today, but obviously a little bit deeper, in a two-hour overview presentation. It's broken down into 14 modules and it has a very beautifully designed workbook by my designer, Jane Butler, that will be useful for years to come. So that is Discovering You and it's under my online courses at YourEnneagramCoach.com. [00:50:40]  
The next thing is if you find your type, you want to get exploring you. These are my private coaching sessions, but now in pre-recorded videos. So I've taken the guide sheets where I break down your personality and the bite-sized lessons into this online coaching course so that you can learn, stretch, and grow without becoming overwhelmed. But it's specific to you. 
And it's not just about your type, it's how to transform and to be more like Christ. So that's exploring you. Again, that's under the online course tab of my website, yourintegramcoach.com. 
Laura Dugger: Awesome. I hope everybody gets to go check that out. You have so graciously offered for $10 off either of those courses when you use the code 10OFF. So all of us are very grateful to you, Beth, for offering that. 
You may already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. We just want to hear your practical tips to apply to our own lives. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:51:49] 
Beth McCord: So my savvy sauce would be don't commit a suicide. A suicide is where we assume others see the world and react to the world the same way we do. And so when others don't, we assume wrongly and we can be hurt or we can then end up hurting them or our relationship. Whereas with the Enneagram, you can now start to go, oh, I think they're seeing the world from a totally different perspective. Let me ask some clarifying questions before I react in a wrong way, which is committing a suicide, hurting your relationships with others. So that would be my savvy sauce. 
Laura Dugger: I love it. I truly have never met a nine that I didn't like and you are no exception. 
Beth McCord: Oh, thanks. 
Laura Dugger: You're just such an endearing person and really I'm so grateful for this time together today. So thank you, Beth. 
Beth McCord: Yeah, thank you. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:52:50] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:53:55] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:55:03] 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:55:56]

41 Practical Parenting Tools with Author and Speaker, Sue Heimer

41. Practical Parenting Tools with Author and Speaker, Sue Heimer
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Hebrews 12:11 (NIV) “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.” 
 
Sue Heimer is an author, Biblical Counselor, Bible teacher and international speaker. She is a sought after conference and retreat speaker inspiring thousands of women each year with her messages of hope. Sue recently authored When You Feel Like Screaming: Practical Help for Frustrated Moms, is the contributor to multiple books including What I Wish I Had Known, and is a regularly featured writer for Focus on the Family and Faith Life publications. Her greatest blessing and joy is being a wife to Curt, for over 30 years, and mom to four adult sons who, along with their spouses, continue to add grandchildren to their lives. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Sue Heimer’s Book  
 
Sue Heimer's website
 
Connect with Sue on Facebook @sueheimer
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
 
Sue Heimer is our guest today. She is married to Curt and they raised four children. She is an author and speaker and this episode is full of practical solutions to help make your life a little bit easier as a mom. We are going to learn more of her heart behind her book titled When You Feel Like Screaming: Practical Help for Frustrated Moms. I hope you find this chat to be helpful. 
 
Hello, Sue. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce. 
 
Sue Heimer: Good morning to you. Thank you for inviting me. 
 
Laura Dugger: Will you begin by telling us more about your motherhood journey? 
 
Sue Heimer: I absolutely will. I'll begin by saying it was harder than anticipated. My most difficult years... I have four adult sons now, and the most difficult time for me, I was just reminded yesterday again when I was around one of my grandsons, that 12-month to two-year-old stage was the hardest for me as a mom because they were mobile but I could not reason with them. That was very difficult.[00:01:35]  
 
Then I came up for air and had some really great preschool and grade school years and then the teen years hit. And those were also very challenging for me. 
 
But probably in my parenting journey, for my husband and I, both, we were very intentional. I mean, he was great about keeping our me on track with this and reminding me of this because, you know, I was boots to the ground every day with the kids, whether I was home full-time or working part-time or whatever it was. 
 
He just reminded me, let's be real intentional to purpose to enjoy every stage and season of life to the fullest of our children and not wish them away. And I'll tell you lots of times, Laura, that was a choice, not a feeling. But when I chose to say, "I will enjoy this time in their lives," those feelings caught up. And I really enjoyed my children because I dived in with both feet and said, just like the teen years, this is going to go away. This isn't forever. And even though it might be really hard and difficult, there's so much blessing in this season, so let's embrace it, whatever that means for our family. [00:02:45] 
 
I think for moms, just to know someone's actually admitting it's harder than they thought. It's hard and there's a tremendous blessing in it. But I wish someone would have come alongside me and put their arm around me and said, You're not alone. This can be really hard sometime and full of blessing. Because I felt guilty a lot of times when I thought, does anyone else realize how difficult this is being a mom? 
 
My motherhood journey had seasons to it. It changes with the stages of your children's lives. And it looked very different at different times. 
 
Laura Dugger: In your book, you say 298 of the 300 women surveyed used different language, but all admitted to either yelling or screaming at their kids. So if a listener is hearing this today and they identify that they're not alone in this struggle, where can they go from here? 
 
Sue Heimer: Great question. For me, a game changer for moms is when you identify what's putting you over the edge. [00:03:48] Because when you identify your triggers, that's empowering because then you can implement change. 
 
Now, I'm going to be honest with you, when I lost it with my kids, I certainly didn't want to go write a journal about it. I just wanted to move on with my day because mostly I felt guilt after I would lose it with my kids. But here's the deal. If you as a mom would just take a moment, even if it's on the backside of the envelope, and write down, okay, I just lost, I just yelled, raised my voice. Write down what had just transpired. And do that for a week and look at that and say, Do I see a pattern? Because if you can see what your triggers are, then you're going to be able to make some change.
 
So what makes you lose your indoor mommy voice? Is it that time when you do really good all day? And it's what I call the piranha hour. It's between when they get home from school and supper time, those piranha hours in there where they're hungry, they're tired. [00:04:47] 
 
Well, if you lose it every day around 5:00, 5:15 because everyone's waiting for your spouse to come home to eat, maybe you just change it up and say to your spouse, "Honey, every day we're going to have supper at 5.15 and we'd love for you to be here, but if you're not, I'm going to feed the kids and we'll enjoy a snack with you when you get home and we can sit around while you eat supper and have our evening snack. But this has to change because I'm flipping out. You come home, I'm stressed, the kids are stressed from me losing it." That is a game changer because you're giving yourself, empowering yourself to make some changes. 
 
Or maybe it's the mom who she does great but every day you know she walks across the floor and there's lucky charms stuck to the bottom of her socks, you know? And she's just like, her floors drive her crazy. She's identified what is a trigger that puts her over the edge. 
 
Well, empowered with that, maybe you hire a high school girl to come in once a week or twice a week at four o'clock and you hand her a sweeper and she sweeps your entire house. And you pay her so much, whatever you've agreed upon. But then that's one trigger that you've taken care of. [00:06:03] 
 
Or maybe your trigger is your high school daughter's room, and it's just a constant battle because it looks like a pigsty and you are arguing over that on a daily basis. Maybe that's one where that trigger... you just need to walk away. There's no shame in leaving the battlefield and let things de-escalate. 
 
You may just have to shut that bedroom door and walk away from it. And if she chooses to live in squalor, you may have to let her and just say, "Honey, if you want your laundry done, you bring your clothes out and do your laundry yourself. If you don't know how to do it I will show you how to use the washer and dryer but that door remains closed." And that's not a trigger for you, mom setting you over the edge, and then not only does that affect your daughter, but a ripple effects to your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with your other children. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great because it also gives all of us ownership over our own actions. That ties into another topic that you address in your book. And that is healthy boundaries. So how can we place those healthy boundaries around ourselves instead of over-committing to everything during every season? [00:07:13] 
 
Sue Heimer: You know, on my website at SueHeimer.com, I have a free download under "resources". In it says this, seven questions to ask before adding anything to your schedule. I have moms, grandmas, they print these out and they put them on their fridge. I still use this. I have an actual physical day planner and it's taped inside my day planner. Because this puts boundaries in my life and helps me say no. 
 
Questions like, will this benefit me or my family in a positive way? If I'm adding something to my schedule, I've got to ask that. Or do I even have a passion for this commitment? I have said yes over the years out of guilt when I had no passion for it nor felt called to be involved in it. 
 
Is my schedule already full? Laura, if my schedule is already full, what am I going to admit from my schedule to take on a new responsibility? No, you can't omit the kids. So it's got to be something that has to go so you can make room and create space to bring this on. [00:08:17] 
 
But for me, especially during the years when I had young children, the question that got me every time was, is this an absolutely necessary obligation at this season of my life? That was huge for me. Because maybe it wasn't the season, the time right then. And then ask your husband and children what they think of this commitment. Ask them. I mean, they're going to have an opinion, and that may help you sort out if this is the time. 
 
I'm a firm believer, Laura, that our greatest ministry is our own families. I don't believe we should be taking pot roast carrots and potatoes to the neighbor down the street when our children are home eating SpaghettiOs. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's a really practical example. Do you have any other examples that people could grab on to? 
 
Sue Heimer: I just remember when I first started my speaking career and I started traveling. I really limited how often I would leave my family because I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want to miss the Friday night football games and the after-school stories that they tell me about their day. [00:09:28] 
 
One particular day, the day before, I had gotten a call from a national women's group who asked me to join their speaker team, and that would mean a lot more travel as a Christian speaker. And my husband and I had agreed to pray about it for a couple weeks and see if this is a door opening or just how we should proceed with this invitation. 
 
That very next day, my bag was by the back door and my son Brock, he was in eighth grade at the time. He came in the sunroom and looked at my bag sitting there and he goes, "So are you speaking today?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm speaking up in Chicago." He finally said, "So will you be here when I get home?" 
 
And that was my answer. I didn't have to pray about this invitation for a few weeks. I knew right now the answer for me was no. Don't take on any more than you already have on your plate. Because what my son was saying is, "Will you physically be here for me?" He's not impressed. [00:10:27] 
 
Your children aren't impressed if you're president of the PTA, or you're on the school board, or you're traveling the country speaking at women's conferences. What they want to know is, will you be here for me? That doesn't mean that you can't do those other things. But to keep them in balance, keep boundaries in your life so you have time for your family.
 
Laura Dugger: You also share some practical tips for communicating openly and honestly with our children. Can you just share a few of those tips and teach us how it prepares them to become future adults? 
 
Sue Heimer: Yeah. Communication is huge. And you're exactly right, preparing them to be adult and be good communicators. I'm a firm believer in age-appropriate communication with your kids. So what does that look like? You may have to get down on your knees in front of your preschooler and take her little face in your hands and just say, "You know, mommy is sad today and her sad is kind of turning to mad. So she's gonna put herself in timeout for a little bit." [00:11:30] 
 
You've just communicated to your preschooler that mommy's having a tough day because her sad's turning to mad and she needs to step into her bedroom and just take a few minutes, hit the pause button, redirect, let whatever emotions she has going on just settle down a little bit so she can come back out and deal with whatever the situation is. 
 
Not only did she communicate with her daughter, but her daughter just seen modeled to her anger management through that communication. Or maybe it's those teens. It's a tough season in your life. Maybe you have a sick aging parent and you sit them all down around the table and you say, "You know, we're going through a very difficult season right now. Grandma fell. She broke her hip. She's in the hospital. I need to be there for her and it's going to get better. This journey isn't going to last forever, but right now we need the whole family to step up and help and maybe do some chores that you haven't had to do in the past. But we need you. Can we count on you to be there for us?" [00:12:36] 
 
You've just communicated to those teens. And those teens are going to rise to the challenge because they feel honored you've shared that with them and they're going to want to be a team player in that. 
 
Laura Dugger: What age do you recommend starting this style of communication? What age should our children be? 
 
Sue Heimer: I remember as a young mom, I was leaving a grocery store and I just had my oldest son, Seth, and he was two at the time. And an elderly lady stopped me in the parking lot and she said, "I just want to tell you, I watched you back there in the grocery store and your son was getting really upset and you got right down, right eye level to him and you told him, 'Your behavior is not appropriate. Mom's gonna have to take you out to the vehicle and we're gonna have to leave this store.'" 
 
And I set some boundaries right there and verbally communicated with him how I was feeling, what the expectation was, and what the consequence was gonna have to be. And she just said, "I loved how you talked to him like he was understanding what you were saying." And I said, "He may not be able to verbally talk back to me clearly right now and express how he feels, but he understands what I'm saying." [00:13:54] 
 
Laura Dugger: And I think that just communicates a high level of respect for our children, even if we start when they are that young. I love that you include a section in your book on sleep, especially because it's a book for moms. Will you tell us more about your findings of sleep deprivation? 
 
Sue Heimer: Absolutely. This was very eye-opening for me when I started to study sleep deprivation. Because as a young mom, I remember In church one day a lady came up to me and she looked at me and she said... we were just having a sweet conversation and she finally said, "Oh, you're such a busy mom. You need a hobby." And I looked at her and I said, "Okay, I choose sleep. Does sleep count?" 
 
Because I was so exhausted. I would wake up in the morning and literally my first thought many days was, "What time can I get to bed tonight?" Because I just lived in exhaustion all the time. So with my study, I really dived into this. And I found out even the American Medical Association tells us that you are 15% to 20% more likely to be clinically depressed when you consistently lack sleep. [00:15:02] 
 
Protecting your sleep should be huge. Sleep is underrated and moms need their sleep. Whatever you need to do. For us, we tag-teamed when the kids were babies. I would feed that little baby about 8 o'clock and then I would go right to bed. And my husband would give the infant a bottle at 11. And then I would then get up three hours after that, two, three in the morning, whatever that looked like. And by the time I got up for that first feeding from eight to two, I had five hours of respite. But just learning what that looks like when they were even toddlers or preschoolers, tag teaming as much as possible to get sleep. 
 
This even went on for me in the teen years, because I realized why it was so important that I needed to get sleep. Definitely, my lack of sleep carried over into my functioning as a mom the next day. When I was exhausted, I definitely lost my indoor mommy voice on a more consistent basis. [00:16:03] But when I was rested, I was able to stay cool and calm and collected under some really pressure-filled moments. 
 
So even when we had teens, we invested in these little white noise machines. I put one in our bedroom, I put one in their bedrooms, because as a teen mom, I could hear them walking through the home, or if it was the weekend, being nocturnal in the middle of the night, and walking out to the fridge, or sitting in the living room. Whatever it was, I did everything I could to protect my sleep so I could be a better mom. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that you mentioned the word respite there. So as it relates to soul care, what are some signals that we're not getting enough respite? 
 
Sue Heimer: When you're on edge, when you have tension headaches, when you find yourself raising your voice a lot, when you answer your children with really short answers, those are all signs that you need a break, you need a hiding place. [00:17:04] 
 
It took years for me to realize there's no guilt in respite. There shouldn't be guilt in respite. I always felt guilty when I took a few moments to myself, but I encourage every mom I encounter, create a hiding place. Moms need a hiding place and they need intentional respite. 
 
I often think about how many times in scripture where our Lord Jesus Christ and His disciples got in the boat and went out into the lake to escape the crowds. And they knew right where those crowds were. They were running along the shore of the lake following them. But they went out in the middle of the lake. Why? To take a break. 
 
I think if the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, modeled to us that we need a break, His disciples, He modeled to his disciples the importance of respite, why should we feel guilty when we take time and step away? And that hiding place is gonna look very different from you than your best friends. 
 
For years, my hiding place was literally I kept a one-pound bag of M&M's hidden behind some purses in my walk-in closet. [00:18:12] And when it got too much during the day, I stepped away. I went in my master bedroom, I shut the door. I went into my walk-in closet, I shut the door. And I reached up there and I got a few M&M's and I sat on the floor of my closet and I just ate some M&Ms. 
 
I was in there maybe five minutes, but those five minutes hit the pause button, gave me a break. And I knew exactly where my children were. They were beating on the door outside the master bedroom saying, "Mommy, Mommy, are you in there?" And sticking their fingers under the door. I knew exactly where they were. They were totally safe. That I as a mom had created a hiding place, my sanctuary, for just a few minutes for me. 
 
As a mom, I encourage moms, grandmas, aunts, they need to get creative with this. Maybe for you, you have the luxury of escaping every Saturday morning while your spouse is home from 9 to 10 to walk through a bookstore with a hot coffee in your hand or you go to a coffee shop. [00:19:13] Maybe you can get away for a weekend night once in a while. 
 
I have a friend, Veronica, she's a single mom, she has three beautiful sons, and she's a full-time working mom. And I said, "Veronica, how do you find a hiding place?" And she said, I have to get very creative. But she said, "Three days a week, I arranged with the sitter to pick up my boys a half hour later on those days." And she said, "Three days a week, I pull into a nearby park. And if it's warm out, I walk the park. If it's cool out, I keep a novel in my glove compartment of my car and I sit in my car and I read a couple chapters of that novel." 
 
She said, "That's my hiding place." She said, "It doesn't seem like much, an hour and a half total a week," but she said, "this helps me keep my sanity. This helps me go home refreshed, ready to tackle the evening activities."
 
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. [00:20:15] 
 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A East Peoria. First, the best-kept secret is their chicken for breakfast, which is served Monday through Saturday, 6.30 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. My personal favorite are the chicken minis, four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
 
Second, did you know that Chick-fil-A caters? They will deliver and set up all of your food for your event, such as your business meeting or your birthday party. There are even a few menu items that you can only get through catering, including the waffle potato chips and chilled grilled subs. 
 
Finally, did you know you can skip the line and earn your way toward free food in the process? Just download the free Chick-fil-A app so you can place your order and pay on your mobile device then bypass the entire line as it's ready for you when you arrive at Chick-fil-A East Peoria. [00:21:14] For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to cfaeastpeoria.com. 
 
Laura Dugger: What about on the other side? Are there any signals that we are getting too much respite? 
 
Sue Heimer: Yes, Laura. I think for some moms, the encouragement is they need to come home. That respite has become their idol. We all love an escape. We all love respite. I mean, there's times I would just like, "Oh, just get me out of here." That's good. You need to own that, feel that, and get out and do something different. 
 
But if your children are starting to act out, if your teens are saying, "Mom, you're never around when we're home, where are you?" There's got to be some balance because your kids need you. 
 
Laura Dugger: And we all have heard so many times that consistency is important, but it can really feel exhausting to follow through. So you've mentioned some systems that work for you. Can you share some ideas for us for how to be consistent? [00:22:16] 
 
Sue Heimer: One game changer for my husband and I with our four sons was early on in our parenting years, we introduced the timer. Now, we used kitchen timers. We bought three of them because they will hide them on you. Your children will. But a mom can use it just even on her phone, a timer. And for us, this really put the responsibility back on our children. 
 
Before the timer, I would say to the children, "Clean up this living room. You have 10 minutes to clean up this mess." And my kids would ignore me because in their mind, she doesn't mean it yet. Her voice isn't raised. She doesn't mean it. And they would just continue playing. 
 
Three minutes later, I'd walk back to the living room and I'd raise my voice a little more: "Clean up this mess. I told you guys to get cleaning." They'd kind of look at me. And then a few minutes later, I come in and I totally lose it. "Clean up the mess!" And they're like, "Now she means it." Because I had trained my sons very well. "You don't have to respond. You don't have to obey until mom loses it and then you can obey." [00:23:21] That means that it's time to make this happen. So we introduced the timer. 
 
If you have younger children and you introduce the timer, I'm going to encourage you to walk this through with them a few times. The older children can be verbally instructed. But for instance, when my Casey was three years old, I would say, "Casey, we're going to clean up the living room. So mommy's going to set the timer for 10 minutes and we have 10 minutes to get this living room all cleaned up. If we don't get it cleaned up in 10 minutes, we gotta go sit in the corner for three minutes and then we'll come back and try to get it cleaned up again." 
 
I encourage moms to fail the first couple times. So I would take Casey by the hand, we'd set the timer, I'd go into the living room with him and we'd start picking up and cleaning up the living room, and all of a sudden the timer would go off and I'd go, "Oh Casey, we didn't get the living room picked up." So we would go and we'd sit in the corner together and I'd turn the timer to three minutes and after three minutes I'd say, "Okay, we're gonna set the timer for ten minutes again. Let's try it again." [00:24:22] 
 
By day number three, I'm walking this through with him a few times. I didn't have to walk it through anymore with him. I set the timer, I said, "Casey, it's time to clean up the living room." One time the timer went off and the living room wasn't clean and Casey turned to me and he says, "I know, I know, I'll be in the corner." And off they would go. 
 
For older children, this was a game changer for our family. For instance, we would set the timer at night, and we'd say, "Okay, everyone, 20 minutes before bed." Now, this has to be age-appropriate. So the younger ones, the 4 and 5-year-olds, would know 20 minutes till bedtime means they needed to brush their teeth, get their pajamas on, and be in bed and ready for a goodnight prayer and a story. 
 
For the older children, and you may have to post this on your fridge, this meant book bags by the back door, lunch packed for the next day, shoes by the back door, your clothes laid out for the next day, and you cannot change your mind. What you laid out the night before is what you're wearing the next day. [00:25:23] And then teeth brushed, you know, pajamas on, in bed, waiting for prayers and a good night. 
 
We would set that timer. And when the timer went off... and I will inject here, while the timer is ticking, do not say, "10 minutes, you got eight minutes," but they're not doing anything. Ignore it. This is about putting the responsibility back on the child. So mom, dad, you say nothing. Let that timer run down. 
 
So the expectation was they were in bed ready for that prayer and story if they were younger. If that wasn't done, that was expectation wasn't done, the consequence was you have to go to bed 15 minutes earlier the next night. We would say, "You know what? We appreciate your effort but tomorrow, bedtime starts 15 minutes earlier." And if the next night they don't do it, bedtime starts 15 minutes earlier. 
 
If you have a rebellious child, let me tell you, he's going to be going to bed right after supper, which isn't such a bad thing sometimes. But they will get it because you put the responsibility back on the child. Use that same routine in the morning. 
 
Someone asked me, a tween and teenager, are they too old for a timer? I said, "If your child is still struggling accomplishing tasks, they are not too old for a timer." [00:26:38] I have some friends that I've met over the years that they are still calling their college student away at college to tell him it's time to get up so he makes it in time for class. That is not okay. 
 
If you're still waking your teenager, that is not okay, because you are raising someone's future employee, and employer, and neighbor, and friend, and spouse, and you should not still be waking that child up. 
 
So, in the morning... Let's go back. In the morning, we would set the timer and say, "Okay, everybody, time to get up, and you have 20 minutes to brush your teeth, get dressed, and whatever your routine is, and be in the kitchen." When that timer went off, if they weren't in the kitchen, the consequence was for younger kids, they didn't get an after-school snack, and for the older kids, they got assigned an extra chore. You need to make it matter. 
 
Laura Dugger: What you're saying reminds me of Hebrews 12:11, and it says, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." And I think those are great ideas of what you shared of how to live that scripture out. Will you also elaborate on your creative twist to the typical chore chart? [00:27:51] 
 
Sue Heimer: Yes, Laura. We got very creative with our sons. And I got five mason jars. They were just pint size and I put them in the cupboard, one for each boy and then one for me, mom. And every week I would stack in front of each of the boy's jars 10 $1 bills. Those 10 $1 bills was their allowance at the end of the week. 
 
Now, moms don't panic because some of you are saying, "I don't have $40 a week to give my kids." Trust me when you hear this, you're going to earn most of that back. So what it looked like was we put a list of chores on the fridge or you put it inside a cupboard and each son knew exactly what his responsibility was every day. Might be before and after school, depending on the situation. 
 
But for instance, Seth may come home from school, and on Monday he is to feed and water the dog, empty the dishwasher, wipe down the cupboards, and clean a bathroom. At the bottom of the chore chart for all the boys it will state all chores must be finished by 4:45. [00:28:56] Your family the time might be different. 
 
So what this would look like on Monday is at 4:45 I would go over to the chore chart and I would say, "Seth, did you get all this accomplished?" And he may say, "Oh, no, no, no, I forgot to empty the dishwasher. I'll get it right now." And I'll say, "No, it's 4.45." And I would turn to his brothers, Levi, Casey, or Brock, and I would say, "Seth didn't empty the dishwasher. Does anyone want to empty the dishwasher for Seth and earn two of his dollars?" 
 
Now, my boys were incredibly competitive. And let me tell you they love nothing more than taking money from their brothers. Casey's like, "Yes, yes, I'll do it." So I would take $2 off of Seth's pile and I would put it in Casey's pint mason jar. And Casey just earned $2 from his brother. 
 
And if there was nobody around, and it was just Seth and I home, or if none of the brothers wanted to do Seth's chores, I would have to do it. But mom is double, because my time is very valuable. So I would go over and I would take $4 off of Seth's pile, I would put it in my jar, and I would go and empty the dishwasher. [00:30:03] 
 
This created such a peace in our home. After school time became so much more pleasant as a family because I wasn't constantly saying, "Did you do your chores? Did you do your chores? Look at the time." I said nothing after school. I knew at 4:45, I would address any unfinished chores. But chores started to get done because those boys hated paying each other. I love that. 
 
Laura Dugger: After years of intentional parenting, now what are some character qualities that you see in your sons? 
 
Sue Heimer: That is a great question, Laura. We always kept in the forefront of our mind that we are raising someone's future spouse, employer, employee, neighbor, or friend. So the character qualities I see now in our boys, they're very responsible, they're hardworking. They're devoted to their families. They have a great sense of empathy for others. And I think that may have come from the communication pattern that we started with the boys of telling them, "Hey, mom's having a bad day or dad's having a rough week." That created empathy in them for us as parents, for their brothers. And we've seen it now played out in their co-workers, friends and neighbors, that the boys are diligent. 
 
They're hospitable. They open their homes. I don't know if that's because during the teen years we had teens in our house so often or it's because we invited other families over for meals. And it wasn't always convenient, but we just wanted to model it for our sons. [00:31:34] But they certainly caught that because they're very hospitable. 
 
They're very generous with their time with others. Your children watch you. I tell you what, Kurt and I fell flat on our face so many times in parenting, where we were so thankful we had 365 days a year to parent our kids. The good Lord did that on purpose because he knew we were going to fail many, many, many of those days. And we could do a whole podcast on how we failed as parents and what we learned through those failures. 
 
and our four sons are very different from each other. They're not clones of each other. But it is wonderful to see them now as adults with some really wonderful character qualities, despite our failures as parents. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and as you think back on those many years of really involved parenting, what are a few things specifically that you're so glad you and Curt did? 
 
Sue Heimer: I think probably one of the number one things in parenting is through the teen years and because of the age span of our boys, the first three are close in age and then there's five five-year difference between the third and fourth son. [00:32:41] But all through those years… So it ended up being nine years straight, every Friday night we would invite any of the high schoolers over to our house after football games and after basketball games. 
 
We would get up to 70 kids. That doesn't mean you have to host 70 kids. Maybe you just have their closest friends or a smaller gathering. But we went through that seven questions to ask before adding anything to our schedule. We put hosting high schoolers at our house through those questions. And we knew it was the season of our life to do it. We knew what our kids would think of that commitment. And we knew that this would really allow us to be able to be used by God. 
 
That was one thing we are so thankful we did. I served the same thing every week when they'd all come over. We did nacho bar. But you know, to this day, we still run into those teens that were in our home. We still have connections with those teens. [00:33:41] 
 
But our boys learned to work together as a family, to set up for the kids to come over, to tear down when the kids left. They worked as a family to get everything done early in the week so we could plan for that. And it taught our kids to be hospitable. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that tradition. That's incredible to hear that all of that investment has really paid off. Our listeners are some of the kindest people we've met. Your gracious comments through social media, email, and our website fuel us to continue producing more content. 
 
Some of you have asked what you can do to support The Savvy Sauce. As you know, we greatly appreciate it when you share episodes with friends. Now, for as little as $2 a month, there is a new way to financially show your support. These contributions, ranging from $2 to $20 per month, will be rewarded with extra podcasts, free downloadable scripture cards, and more. 
 
Check out all the details at thesavvysauce.com and click on our "Patreon" tab to find out how you can be a supporter of the arts. Thanks for participating. [00:34:46] 
 
Sue, this has just been such a joy. If listeners want to connect with you further, where can they find you? 
 
Sue Heimer: They can find me on my website at sueheimer.com and that is where there are some free resources under the resource tab. But they can also find me on Facebook @SueHeimer. 
 
Laura Dugger: We will definitely link to all of that, as always, in our show notes. You may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge, and we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, Sue, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Sue Heimer: My Savvy Sauce for today would be set your alarm 15 minutes earlier each morning to leave room for emergencies or disruption in your routine. It doesn't matter if you have toddlers, teens, or your kids are out of the home. Most days, there is an eruption of some sort. And if it doesn't happen, you've just earned 15 minutes of white space in your day, and that is a gift. [00:35:51] 
 
Laura Dugger: What a great idea. Sue, you have parented so well. Thank you for sharing your journey with us and all of these practical tips. Really enjoyed our time together today. 
 
Sue Heimer: Thank you, Laura. It was an honor to join you. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:36:53] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:37:53] 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:38:53] 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

40 Meaningful Bonds Created Through Reading Aloud with Founder and President of Reading Legacies, Betty Mohlenbrock

40. Meaningful Bonds Created Through Reading Aloud with Founder and President of Reading Legacies, Betty Mohlenbrock
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Proverbs 16:3 (NIV) “Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.” 
 
Betty’s Mohlebrock’s background in primary education and nonprofit management has uniquely prepared her for the role of Founder and President of Reading Legacies. Her first nonprofit organization, United Through Reading (UTR), benefited over one million military service members and their families during her 20 years of leadership. Upon turning over the reins of UTR in 2008, she launched Reading Legacies in 2010 in order to reach out to children and youth who lack the emotional support of committed role models or whose lives have been torn apart by parental incarceration. Reading Legacies provides solutions to these devastating societal challenges through the transformational power of the shared-reading experience.
 
Reading Legacies Website 
 
Direct Link to Book list (including titles mentioned by Betty)
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian School
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock and I were introduced through a mutual friend, Jessica Hughes. Betty is the founder and president of Reading Legacies. This nonprofit organization serves children and youth whose lives have been torn apart by parental incarceration. She's going to teach us how shared reading experiences have transformational power. You'll also hear a few of her favorite book recommendations. I am honored to welcome her as our guest today. 
 
Hello, Betty. 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Hi, Laura. Nice to talk to you. 
 
Laura Dugger: It's so great to have you today. Will you just start us off by sharing a few things about yourself? [00:01:19] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: I would love to. Thank you for this privilege and honor to talk about my life and how the Lord is working through me. As I get older, I'm able to appreciate His work. I think that's a blessing in aging, if I might just add that. 
 
My background, a schoolteacher and a family of schoolteachers, educators from Illinois, the Midwest, married a darling college sweetheart who 54 years later is still my college sweetheart. We came to San Diego 50-plus years ago during the Vietnam War when Bill was a flight surgeon. He had just finished his internship in St. Louis and we had a nine-month-old daughter and she grew up here. So she's really a pretty much a native. 
 
So we landed here and we decided to stay because Bill's orthopedic residency invitation was here in San Diego. This has been our home ever since. We are now transplants into the San Diego community. [00:02:27] 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and it is a beautiful community. But you mentioned a little bit about your background. Could you share more about how that prepared you to launch two non-profit organizations? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Absolutely. Again, my genes were for teaching and loving children and having a heart for kids. My mother taught third grade. My dad was a school principal. So I did become a third-grade teacher after graduating from the University of Illinois for three summers. 
 
After that, I went ahead and earned my master's degree in the teaching of reading because as a classroom teacher, I did know and observe the benefits of children who have been read to in the early years, the read-aloud experience, and became so cognizant of that, both, you know, hands-on in the classroom, then later with their own family and with all the research.
 
I did take time off from the classroom to raise our daughter, thinking we would have more. We had only one. The Lord gave us grandchildren instead, which is also quite wonderful. [00:03:32] But I decided then about middle school age that it was time for me to get back into teaching children. I had been tutoring children with reading problems, but I wanted to make a difference on a much larger scale. 
 
And I know now that this was the Lord putting this in my heart to change the paradigm in our country. Huge, huge vision that He gave me, that children were missing this bonding and educational experience of adults, family members, and other close friends reading to them and spending time with them and talking to them and sharing their values. As I have watched our culture over the years, this continues to be a challenge for families for changing reasons, but the challenge is still there. 
 
So the one fact that really hit me in the face... Well, actually, the good fact and then the bad fact. The good fact is that the single best predictor of a child being able to read in the early years is if they have been read aloud to regularly before they get to school. [00:04:38] Those first five years are critical. 
 
At the same time, I learned only 50% of American children were being read to on a regular basis before they get to school or at all. That really broke my heart. Again, I think that the Lord... there's no way I could have done what I've done over the years without it being from him. And that is when I decided to start a nonprofit. That was in 1989. 
 
At that time, I really was not a young girl. I was, to be honest with the facts, I was 49 years old and decided it was time to change the world. So if there are any women listening that are not, you know, in 20s or 30s, it's never too late to start something that you really feel led to do. So the rest of the story goes from there. It's been a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful journey. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now, would you tell us a bit more about both of those nonprofits that you did start? [00:05:39] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Mm-hmm. In 1989, with my husband, who is a partner in everything, we have partnered with each other in our endeavors in many ways. I had this huge vision. I had never managed a non-profit organization or any kind of organization other than a classroom, which is challenging in and of itself in a different way. 
 
So, we're here in a military community. I knew of military deployment causing a separation from your children that is really quite difficult, particularly for the children. We experienced that ourselves during Vietnam. When Bill was away for 10 months, our daughter didn't recognize him when he came back. Of course, in those days, there was no email, there was very little communication. But it was very impactful to have that experience. 
 
So I decided I would start with military children because a vision for all children has to start somewhere. And that became a program that ultimately was embraced by the military. We worked with the USO, we worked with military commands. 
 
I journeyed to Washington DC regularly on my own with the Department of Defense, with the Chief of Naval Operations, met with several of them, talking about how this small nonprofit in San Diego could help the military by making it a priority for these parents to read aloud with their children while away, but use technology as that connection. [00:07:11] On every ship, there is some sort of technology. In those days, just the video cameras, very minimal bandwidth for real-time. Today there are many, many other technologies available. 
 
But what we learned is that because there were not a lot of family support programs in those days, now this was way back, almost 30 years ago, and this then did become something that the military, all of the commands now, every single military service branch is utilizing my program called United Through Reading, where they use technology to read aloud so that children can listen to mom or dad regularly. 
 
And children love repetition, as anyone with children knows. So it's important that it be something that they can listen to repeatedly. The real-time is wonderful, but it is not something they can plug in when they're lonely. This is something that the child needs to have on demand. [00:08:11] 
 
So that program became really pretty much running on its own. Target Corporation became our national sponsor. We partnered with the USO. It's just a beautiful, beautiful success story that the Lord rolled out with a lot of years and effort involved. 
 
But along the way, I did look into how to reach other children and had programs for teens that are in at-risk communities, getting them involved as being role models, reading to children, rather than hanging out with gangs. That is a program that I brought forward from my old organization. Additionally, took the technology idea along with education, workshops, parent education into correctional facilities where we teach groups of parents the importance of being the first and most important teacher their child will ever have by reading to them. 
 
Now we're breaking cycles in this community, the community where we're working with children of incarcerated family members. So much of incarceration is due to poverty and drugs. This is a way for us to help the child by helping the parent see that there are ways that they can change their lifestyle, there are ways that they can make a positive difference with their children. [00:09:27] It's very empowering. 
 
So much of what human behavior is about is feeling that you can offer something to someone else. One of our core values at Reading Legacy, my current organization, is that you benefit, you grow so much when you're giving of yourself. And that's what we are allowing these at-risk parents, grandparents, older siblings, and the teens in our smaller teen volunteer program, that's what makes it work. The benefit is in giving to their children. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so great. Let's back up just a little bit. You might have touched on this point. When you founded Reading Legacies, why did you choose children specifically who have an incarcerated parent? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: That's an interesting story. I retired from United Through Reading with the military program being so successful, a wonderful board, good staff. It was time for me to take a break. I guess I realized I wasn't finished with the vision because it was for all children, but I did retire. [00:10:32] 
 
And then after about a year, the first organization came to me and said, "We are going to close the programs that you started here other than the military, would you like to do something with them?" So I came out of retirement to do Reading Legacies. 
 
The reason that the program for the incarcerated family members was started was really due to parent workshops I had been giving through the Department of Social Services here in San Diego County, which now is Health and Human Services. The head of the department watched these parents responding to a very simple format talking about, again, you, the parent, are the first and most important teacher your child will ever have, and reading stories to them is how you can make the most positive impact in their lives. 
 
Now, we were dealing with people with very low literacy, very little confidence, very little access to books in the home. So we partnered with libraries, we began working with these parents, teaching them to start telling a story from the pictures, reading the words that they were comfortable reading, and it began to interest them in their own literacy skills. [00:11:46] That was so fundamentally good. 
 
At the same time, we were using technology with the military, and one of my knowledgeable board members said, "Betty, let's combine these two strategies and go inside correctional facilities. Because many of these people in our workshops in poverty were in and out of jail all the time anyway. So let's go inside where they have time, number one. Number two, they are looking for ways to change their lives." And this is the most fundamentally good way. 
 
In fact, there are many studies that do say if you can connect the incarcerated person to their family, particularly to their children, they will do better when they get out. So we are basing our strategy on that as well, that this is a way to help them change their lives. So we went inside and in 2001 started that program in the female jail here in San Diego. 
 
A little nervous about going into the men's facilities at first. But once we did, at the encouragement of the Sheriff's Department, we found that the responses were even more appreciative. [00:12:59] 
 
You know, we go in as volunteers, and the message right out of the chute is, "We value you and your children enough to spend our volunteer time here helping you. We're not judging, we're not preaching." We're in there... It's really a ministry of presence. Someone mentioned that word to me that really meant so much, that it's really showing the Lord's love by being there and empowering them as a parent or a grandparent. 
 
So that's why we did that. We felt that the children of incarcerated family members are some of the most vulnerable children in our country for repeating that behavior, getting in trouble, becoming incarcerated themselves. And so it seemed like the right thing to do. And that's why we're there. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love your solution. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: This sponsor is particularly special to our editor, Natalie, because this is the school where her husband teaches and her children attend. Peoria Christian School grades Pre-K through 12 offers a Christ-centered, award-winning education for students. They believe eternity matters and so they want to share the importance of knowing the Lord personally. 
 
PCS supports the Christian home and church by teaching from a biblical worldview. Their caring faculty and staff infuses God's truths through every area of the day, not just in daily Bible classes or in weekly chapels. 
 
Peoria Christian students engage in active learning through STEAM, bring your own device in high school, and so much more. The Puri Christian Elementary School was named a 2017 National Blue Ribbon School of Excellence, and the high school was named a 2018 National Blue Ribbon Exemplary High Performing School. [00:14:45]  
 
PCS students grow in every aspect through their safe environment as teachers share their faith throughout the day. It is another place where your student hears and sees how to live with a Christ-like attitude and develop biblically-based character. 
 
The students are academically challenged and spiritually equipped for the next phase of life as lifelong learners. Peoria Christian School is raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org and schedule a campus tour today. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Laura Dugger: From your experience, have you found it to be harder for children who have a mother that is incarcerated or a father or does it even make a difference? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: I think it's difficult in either scenario. But I do know often that when the mother is missing that you're really going to have to come up with other family members. I think it's just a lot more logistically difficult. But as far as the child is concerned, I think it depends on each family unit and the dynamic there. [00:15:51] 
 
But, you know, I would lean toward being more difficult if the mother is incarcerated just because of who's going to care for the children at home and all of that. Often a mother's bond is really the glue that keeps us all on track. So I would lean that way. I don't have any statistics on that, but I know that it's challenging either way. 
 
Laura Dugger: And just in general, why do you believe reading aloud is so important? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Well, there are studies, of course, on the educational benefit of reading aloud to children, that it does give them that first interest in books, it teaches them vocabulary. In the early years, in the first few years of life, those children that have been exposed to language, have been read to and spoken to, have a much-increased vocabulary over children who have not. 
 
The read-aloud experience is not only an educationally beneficial experience, but it's emotionally beneficial because it's a quiet, focused time, ideally, in the home together, sitting close, sharing throughout the story things that come to mind that are important to the family. [00:17:03] 
 
And there are studies on this that it is, to me, it is also so emotionally stabilizing and the glue of a family, the glue of our society. When you think about it, it's the book, it's the good book where we find our bond with the Lord. And I think the word that we share with children, the time that we spend in good books, particularly the good book, is invaluable. There's nothing else like it. 
 
Laura Dugger: By now, I'm sure that you've heard us talk about Patreon before. I just want to give a simple reminder of each of the levels of contribution available. For $2 per month, You're going to receive a free quarterly downloadable scripture card. For $5 a month, you get the perks of the $2 contribution plus access to extra podcasts that are only available to our patrons. For $20 a month, you get all of these incredible perks and one Savvy Sauce pop socket. 
 
We hope you consider joining today. Visit us at thesavvysauce.com and click on our "Patreon" tab for more information. Thanks for participating. 
 
We often envision reading aloud to children who can't read for themselves, but it may be helpful to expand that picture. Do you find it to be important for all ages of youth to have their parents read aloud to them? [00:18:25] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Oh, I absolutely think it's valuable. Again, though, you know, you don't want to force it. You don't want that to be a painful experience. But if it's a habit you develop in your family, and it's something that the youth, the children, and youth are accustomed to, I think it can and should continue as long as everyone still enjoys it. It's such a strong message. There's nothing like sharing a story, sharing information.
 
I just received a wonderful letter from my older sister about family history. I didn't want to read that alone. Of course, I did first, but I wanted to share that with my husband. There's something about giving and sharing and living experiences and memories together. I think it's always valuable. Yes.
 
Laura Dugger: Do you have any stories or statistics to describe these at-risk children both before and after experiencing your program? [00:19:25] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Oh my goodness, yes. Many, many. But I think the one that was probably most impactful was in the early years just because I was so alone in this venture other than with my precious partner, but I received a letter from one of the Navy wives in the early years of this program when we were still using VHS and we were sending the VHS tapes home through the ombudsman of each of the commands. 
 
The ombudsman was like the point of contact for the family members if you're not military. And I'm sure I'm not defining that exactly correctly. But that's where the videos were delivered and then that person delivered them to the families. Now, of course, today it's way more direct than that. 
 
But this mom sent a two-page letter describing how thrilled she was when she received this surprise VHS reading of her husband reading a story to the children and how much that meant to the children. [00:20:29] That her daughter had been wetting her pants, she quit that. She listened to the story again and again. She had to be in the hospital later. The other stories that came from dad on video, she watched that in the hospital and felt the comfort of daddy in the hospital with her. Just things like that over and over. 
 
And with the correctional facilities, what we're finding is that not only the child who receives the DVD, which DVD now is what we use but the siblings, the whole family benefits. In one family, Friday night is movie night. They call everyone in their family. The grandmother puts out the phone call to all the family and they come over and listen to story time from their missing family member. It happens to be the mother of some young children. But just the whole bonding experience that we hear about every day. 
 
We work in juvenile detention facilities where older siblings are taken away from the family and the younger siblings are very confused about where that brother or sister is. [00:21:35] So they read in our program to their young siblings and that allows that missing connection to be healed and not be so puzzling. 
 
I think what's so different between military children and children of incarcerated family members is that with the military, at least they're proud of what their mom or dad is doing. With the correctional situation, it's very confusing. And children process things so personally. They take responsibility and feel guilty and confused. A lot of behavior problems come from this confusing separation. 
 
And families handle it very differently. Some will not tell their children where the parent is. Some do. And I don't know the right answer to that, but I do know that across the board, the benefit to children is that it relieves that feeling of confusion, fear, and guilt. So those are the kinds of stories we hear, and it's unreal. It's really powerful. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is powerful and transformational the power that it has from that shared reading experience. We love practical application here. So what are some options for the person listening today who is moved and desires to do more? [00:22:54] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: You know, we're here in San Diego. To do more with us, the first request would be to pray for us because it's a big work. I don't mean to chuckle other than that it's such a big request. 
 
In terms of hands-on involvement with us, I think the thing that we always need is books because we give a free book away with everything that we do. We do have a book list on our website that has been screened by our educational committee that reviews the books. So that is a way. 
 
Of course, we welcome donations of any size because we are a community-based organization raising our funds from the general community. 
 
If you're interested in a program like this in your communities, wherever you may be located, I would love to hear from you because our vision for both our teen volunteer program and our program for the children of incarcerated is to expand it and take it national eventually. [00:23:59] 
 
I mean, that really is going to have to be the Lord's word, which we know it is anyway. But that's quite a leap. But we do have our first off-site program in Arizona. We're located in San Diego. And so, you know, we're learning, as we take it outside, how to make it easy to make this operable without being directly involved with our headquarters here, small office here in San Diego. 
 
Those are the ways. I think, if you have book ideas, book selection ideas, we are always interested in that. We have a committee that's looking at books that teach values, because we believe that the books that we use are an important educational tool, not only for the child, but for the parent and or the teen doing the reading. We believe that when you read aloud to someone, you are also taking that into your soul, into your spirit. You're taking a lesson from that as well. [00:24:58] We do try to keep quality literature continually being improved upon. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. We will link to that place where you list all of the children's books. 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Okay. 
 
Laura Dugger: Could you also mention what your website is, a good place for people to get started? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Yes, it's simply readinglegacies.org. Readinglegacies is the plural and it's all one word. Readinglegacies, I-E-S, legacies. 
 
Laura Dugger: Perfect. You're just a wonderful person to ask about a list of good children's books. So we won't go through all of them. But are there maybe three or four that you could mention? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Well, you know, we have favorites that really seem to be always popular. We do give a selection of books in everything that we do in these workshops inside the facilities. We have selections of quality books based on the age of the child. And also the illustrations because the books we incorporate do need to have illustrations for them to be attractive when sent via technology. [00:26:06] 
 
Unless it's a chapter book and the child is old enough for that to be of interest simply with the words in the dad or mom's face. But most of our books have lovely illustrations and a lot of them are classics, even though we are incorporating new books. But I'm sure that your listeners will know Goodnight Moon with the Very Hungry Caterpillar and Rainbow Fish and The Giving Tree, Corduroy, Give a Mouse a Cookie, all of those that kids just love. 
 
We do incorporate Dr. Seuss's books. A lot of our books have to be in paperback. Some that we might want to use if they're only available in hardback, then we cannot take them into the program inside the jails. There is a requirement that we must use paperback books. When you're working inside the facilities, you follow the rules, of course. 
 
Those are some of the favorites. You know, Charlotte's Web, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. All the fun books that have good rhythm to them, have beautiful illustrations, those are the favorites. 
 
Laura Dugger: You've mentioned the good book, the Holy Bible. Do you have any personal scripture that's especially meaningful to you? [00:27:25] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Yeah, I have so many that I confuse myself often. But I think the one that I keep right here on my laptop is in Proverbs 16:3, Commit your work to the Lord and then your plans will succeed. That keeps me going every day, keeps me on task. 
 
I also love the Nehemiah lessons on leadership, about leadership being something that always involves risk of failure when you try something. It requires hard work. All of these things that keep me going, that Nehemiah, his style of leadership that I have learned from in the Bible, there's no opportunity without criticism. You have to be ready to go forward and believe that you're doing the right thing. And there's no true leadership without trust in God. 
 
I think that those kinds of things, as someone that has really I spent so many years now at the Lord's encouragement and empowerment in a leadership position of which I never would have guessed I would be in when I was a young woman. It's interesting how He has put me on a path that I would have had no clue that I could have done these things had I not given my life to Him. [00:28:53] 
 
Laura Dugger: I love, like you, the book of Nehemiah. And you are just doing a great work. So keep up the leadership and the leaning on the Lord. Is there anything else you want our listeners to know that we have not discussed yet? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: You know, I reflected with this opportunity to talk to you on what kind of keeps me balanced, for lack of a better word, because some days I don't feel very balanced. But I think what has been really helpful to me in my endeavors is to every single day spend time with Him, every single day spend time in His word as the first thing, my very first priority. 
 
I also have found that exercise every single day of some sort, it's not fancy. Even going for a walk and talking to him. But moving and relaxing, letting your energy be released that way and also energized that way. And also making time for family and my husband. We are true partners and I think all of that has been the stabilizing force and influence that allows me to still be healthy, praise the Lord, and still be able to do His work. [00:30:11] I think there's a discipline to that that really helps keep us balanced. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so wise. Well, our listeners know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as the final question today, Betty, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Oh my goodness. My life is centered on relationships and spending time with others, giving of myself, listening to others, and being available. I just think relationships is what makes the world go around. And of course, the most important one is with our Lord. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, thank you for that. I just want to sincerely thank you for your time today, Betty. You exude joy and your service is inspiring. So on behalf of myself, all the listeners, and the thousands whose lives you've touched, we just want to say thank you. [00:31:21] 
 
Betty Mohlenbrock: Thank you so much. What a privilege. It was a joy. Thank you. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:32:25] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:33:24] 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:34:28] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

39 Natural Aphrodisiacs in Marriage with Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears. 
 
39. Natural Aphrodisiacs in Marriage with Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Song of Solomon 4:7 NIV “All beautiful you are, my darling; there is no flaw in you.” 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau has truly been a pioneer in Christian sex therapy. He isa licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, author, speaker, adjunct professor, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. His training in both theology and counseling helps couples enrich and reclaim God’s wonderful gift of sexual intimacy.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Dr. Doug’s Website
Dr. Doug on Twitter 
Books by Dr. Doug with various co-authors:
Total Intimacy
Soul Virgins
Celebration of Sex 
Celebration of Sex for Newlyweds
Celebration of Sex After 50
Secrets of Eve by Dr. Archibald Hart, Catherine Hart Weber, and Debra Taylor
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Richmont Graduate University
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger:  Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
 
I'm so excited for our new sponsor, Richmont Graduate University. This is where I received my master's degree and I have nothing but positive things to say about them. If you've never heard of Richmont, Richmont Graduate University is a faith-based, non-profit institution, and they have campuses in Atlanta, Georgia, and Chattanooga, Tennessee. 
 
Richmont provides fully accredited graduate-level training through its School of Counseling and School of Ministry programs. Richmont also has a network of counseling centers, and in 2018, they completed over 25,000 sessions. To learn more about Richmont master's degree programs and counseling services, visit richmont.edu. 
 
Today we get to hear from Dr. Douglas Rosenau. [00:01:18] He is a certified sex therapist and a successful author. After listening to nearly 60,000 hours of stories, he still enjoys joining new clients in their own unique journey with care and acceptance. 
 
Today we're going to talk about natural aphrodisiacs in marriage. Dr. Doug shares many stories to portray how couples can be playful with each other and enjoy the adventure and gift of sexuality as God intended. Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome back today, Dr. Doug.
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Thank you, Laura. 
 
Laura Dugger: It's so good to have you with us again. For those who haven't heard our original chat, do you mind just telling us a bit about yourself? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Sure. Well, I am a missionary kid. I was actually born in Africa and grew up there and went to seminary. I think my parents were kind of happy about that because "I might go back to Africa" I think was some of their thinking, but also ministry is good.
 
Then I decided I really wanted... God was leading me more into counseling, being a therapist, and being a counselor. So I was working on a master's and a doctorate at Northern Illinois University in counseling. [00:02:26] One of my friends went and took a sex therapy class at Loyola Med School and so God really just laid on my heart to be a voice for healthy sexuality, especially within the Christian population, people of faith. 
 
And it was really funny because my parents, I didn't know that at first, but they really struggled with their son, a sex therapist. That seemed really oxymoron. Christian sex therapist, that did not seem to go together at all. But over time, you know, some of their friends came and said, "You must be proud of your son because he's working in a very difficult and important area. And they became proud of me over time and actually were passing my books out before they passed away and so on 
 
But it's been an interesting journey of really being a pioneer. I mean, I don't say that lightly but doing this in the 70s and especially the 80s and 90s and trying to sort through and really having coming again from a really Christian value system and in perspective and trying to help people of faith say sex is good, we can deal with it better. [00:03:38] 
 
Laura Dugger: You've done a great job and contributed so much to the field which we are very grateful to you. Like you mentioned, you've worked in this field for decades and you've documented various natural aphrodisiacs over time. Can you share some of those with us today? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah. When I think of an aphrodisiac, it would be something that could enhance a sex life, could enhance lovemaking. So everyone, I think, wants something artificial. There are natural aphrodisiacs. There are things that really can enhance your lovemaking, can enhance your sex life. 
 
We're talking about what gets in the way of especially wives and fun lovemaking is just fatigue. One research study said that was the number one thing that got in the way. So I think part of one natural aphrodisiac is learning self-nurture, to try to take time to be rested. [00:04:42] And I think that that is an aphrodisiac that sometimes husbands don't recognize, that if she's got one or two or three kids, she's on call, especially if she's a full-time homemaker, even if she's working a homemaker, even worse maybe. 
 
So things like just a natural aphrodisiac with the time and being rested might be just giving the kids a bath, you know, might be taking them to the park to let them swing on the swing set for a while. So I think that's an aphrodisiac we don't think about. 
 
This is kind of funny. I'm in Georgia, and so I had a really country client, first time to do any type of counseling. At the end of it, I said to him, I said, "So what do you think about counseling?" And he says, "You know, Dr. Rosenau, now you ain't told me nothing my mama didn't tell me." And I said, "I bet you, if you were doing everything your mama told you, you probably wouldn't even be here." And Mama would say, Get enough sleep, you know, eat right, be healthy. And I think that's an aphrodisiac actually. That if we really are trying to sort through... [00:05:46] 
 
And I'm even throwing in the exercise part of it too, because I really feel like another thing that really gets in the way of, oftentimes, and this is more of a female thing, with my aging clients, but the body image thing. That's a real break, you know, real turn-off at times, where wives will think, Oh, I don't know what to make... oh, I put on 20 pounds of baby weight, and I'm just not attractive. 
 
And I'm thinking, No, that's really in your head, because probably, and this would be another natural aphrodisiac, was just thinking we're sexy, because I think that's true. I remember just recently the couple was saying... he was saying, "I don't notice the baby weight." He's like, "I love being in you. I love you. I love everything." And she's, "Oh, no, no, no, we can't really have a good sex life until I've lost his baby weight."
 
I finally said to her, I said, "Would you listen to him?" I just told her, I said, "Would you listen to him?" He doesn't notice it. He doesn't notice it. Please believe him. [00:06:45] But I would say, if body image is an issue, I'm more about being healthy than I am about weight. But sometimes just having flexibility and taking a yoga class will make you a better lover. If you're looking at just what did Mama tell you to do, stay healthy, eat right, get enough sleep. 
 
So I think in aphrodisiacs, sometimes it's just those practical things like that, Laura: fighting body image issues, exercising, getting enough sleep and rest. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is so good. And to touch on something that you brought up, I remember studying at Richmont Graduate University, and one of the first classes that I took with you as my professor, you said, similar to that example, that this woman was one of your clients and she said, "Oh, these extra few pounds of baby weight, I'm carrying them. He's just looking at me and he's going to notice my pooch or that my thighs have gotten bigger." And you said he just looks at her and says, "Oh, naked woman." 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: "Look at those nipples. Wow." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that subconsciousness, because... you know, it's fascinating. [00:07:47] I have had clients that came in more for communication skills, other thing, sex wasn't the issue. And I thought, "Wow, they're both obese." She's 60 pounds overweight. I said, "Well, how's your sex life?" And they said, "Great. I just jump him all the time." And he's there grinning, "Yeah, she does." And I'm thinking, "Wow, that woman's accepted. I am Eve. This is the Eve that I am right now, but dread it all, it is a good Eve."
 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. You've talked about other natural aphrodisiacs before, one of them being deepening intimate companionship. So what are some stories that you've heard about couples offering acts of self-sacrificing love? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, you know, let me talk about that too. But one of the things that came to mind when you talked about deepening intimate companionship is there really is such a thing as hotel sex. [00:08:51] There really is such a thing as vacation sex. And I've tried to think through why it's that. And I think part of it is you feel closer. 
 
I mean, it's not that you're just at the beach and maybe you're lucky enough to be at the beach and the kids are at grandma's. I mean, that would really be lucky. But it's that you're spending that much time together and just having fun together. I think that this really is an aphrodisiac of taking time to be close and really... 
 
I don't know if I were thinking about self-sacrificing. Maybe some of it would be usually within a couple, one of them isn't a planner. Maybe that person needs to take... sometimes it's the husband. Maybe that person needs to take the initiative to plan the vacation. You know, it is interesting how the self-sacrifice of... 
 
Well, let me give you an example. So couples will sometimes... I'll get them to say, give me your favorite script of what it would look like for good lovemaking. [00:09:53] What oftentimes comes up is the husband taking more initiative, like even to get the babysitter or to get the kids over to their friend's house or whatever it is. 
 
So I think some of the self-sacrificing could be, I'm taking initiative. And I don't think husbands realize sometimes how much that is an aphrodisiac to have said, You know, babe, we're going out Friday night. I've already got to sit her. Or you know what? I'm going to surprise you Friday morning. You know, we're going to a hotel tonight. What about the kids? Kids are taken care of. Your friend Jeannie's got them. We've got them. We've got it covered. 
 
It's a turn-on. I don't think the husband even understands that that kind of attention to detail and the companionship and being able to be a little self-sacrificing, a little intentionality, how much of a turn-on it can be. Or vice versa. Like the wife saying, "Wow, we're at the beach. I'm going to put in a couple of his favorite lingeries or whatever it is, you know, we're going to have some fun together. [00:10:55] So I think there is ways that we're not doing what's natural. It is a little sacrificial, but it really pays off. 
 
Laura Dugger: Just being more aware and intentional even in self-sacrificing. Well, and you've written about this before, that expressing empathy is different from agreeing with. Can you share more about that? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, actually, I got to piggyback on these examples of the gender differences because I think that there's times where we're trying to empathize, but it's not our reality. What I will say is empathy is walking in someone else's shoes, but it doesn't have to be being the other person's shoes. It doesn't have to be agreeing with it. 
 
Like if the husband or wife says, I like oral sex, and the other person is saying, "Ah, that doesn't sound very fun to me," or "I might enjoy you doing it to me, but not me doing it to you," or whatever. And so I'm thinking, They don't have to agree. They just have to walk in each other's shoes better. Why do you like oral sex? Or why do you like this or that? Or what's going on with you? [00:12:05] 
 
So empathy is understanding. That's my synonym. It's not agreeing. It's not thinking the same way. But if you understand, sometimes that helps you shift a little bit or helps you kind of think through what's important. 
 
I always talk about meaning-making. You know, what would you like your sex life to mean? You know, what would you like it to express? So I think empathy really helps. So if the husband says, you know, "There's something about your body that's just arousing to me." To me, part of oral sex is just I'm close to parts of you that are really arousing that you share with no one else. And it's just fun. 
 
Are the man saying the same thing to the wife? You know, I'm sharing parts of me that are really important to my masculinity and you're enjoying it. So if they could talk about some of the meaning-making and really the empathy more than the behavior, it would be helpful. [00:13:01] Because sometimes you can modify the behaviors. 
 
One wife was saying to me, "I know he likes oral sex," and she says, "but there's just some part of that that, I don't know, I'm really a neat freak and I'm really OCD about stuff." And I said, Well, can you just play with his penis. I mean, just to enjoy that part of masculinity that he finds very important and kind of defining who he is at times more so than should be. 
 
And she said, "Oh, I do that. We have fun, and I'm comfortable with that." She says, "I sometimes even kiss it." I said, "Well, you know, I think you're doing all he needs." I said, maybe if you could just keep playing with it and kiss it. So I'm trying to help them understand more empathetic than agreeing, and with the empathy, then maybe finding behaviors that work, but not getting all caught up in the behavior, rather than really trying to hear what's really being desired or needed. 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes, getting to the heart part of it. 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah. Yeah, which is an aphrodisiac, I think, to be able to talk like that and be able to hear each other's reality and to not judge it. [00:14:09] But just understand it, not agree with it or think, well, that's not something I'm gonna do. But just trying to understand it better. 
 
Laura Dugger: Certainly. We're just gonna go through... you have a list of these. So let's talk about a few more Okay, one of them is focusing in the moment and being sexually mindful. What are some ways women have told you that they're able to bring their minds into the bedroom? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, I think, you know, it's kind of fascinating, Laura. We're both therapists. There's just a huge kick right now. Everything's on mindfulness. There's just so much being written and talked about with mindfulness. And then we're getting into kind of a debate: Is mindfulness Eastern, is it Buddhism or is it Christian?
 
I think it's just a good trade. I don't think we can assign it to a religious faith per se. Because it really is that idea. Like one of the Christian fathers said that there's a sacrament of the present moment. [00:15:12] I like that. That this moment, this moment of lovemaking is sacred. Could you please forget about the clothes being in the dryer? 
 
I think with wives especially, and this is actually brain chemistry because wives, their left and right hemisphere has a greater connection and so they can multitask easier and they can be distracted easier too. I think that there's kind of two levels of mindfulness. I think especially with women, with wives, one level of mindfulness is just truly getting themselves into the bedroom with privacy, with connection. 
 
Then I think the second level of mindfulness is really tuning into their bodies and allowing the feelings to be there in just pleasurable, meaningful, arousing ways. So, I think both of those. 
 
Mindfulness oftentimes talks about spotlighting the senses and really focusing the senses. So I think that a general level of mindfulness is just being present. And then there can be a more specific level of mindfulness that actually gets into really understanding and enjoying my arousal and my ability to be orgasmic and to work on that. [00:16:19]  
 
But I think that's very difficult. I mean, my wife will — typical of wives — sometimes in the middle of lovemaking, will lean over and say those really, you know, romantic words. Granddaughter's coming tomorrow. I'm thinking, "Yeah, that's good. Okay. I like her too." But she's thinking about things she hasn't gotten done yet. And I'm thinking about, "Wow, this is fun."
 
I think that whole first level of mindfulness is hard at times. Because clients will say to me, their wife will lean over and say, you know, baby's going to wake up in 10 minutes. And I'm thinking, Wow, that was really arousing. But I think that there's some of that, Oh, it's just life. But I think that there is ways that we can focus better. Maybe if the baby's going to wake up in 10 minutes, maybe you should just settle for intimacy and just kissing and cuddling and not having to go all the way. It may be a time to do that and enjoy each other. So focus. It's hard but important. [00:17:21] 
 
You know what's fascinating too is I'm working more with aging clients, with boomers that are now 50 to 75. Or 55, 75. As men grow older, testosterone is lower, they have to learn to focus better. So mindfulness to me, for a guy who's 68, is going to be a quest also, you know, lessening distractions and being able to really be there mentally and then really focus and allow the arousal to be there. 
 
I think there's differing populations, like women, and their multitasking ability and their distractibility are aging, that this mindfulness is really an important aphrodisiac, being able to focus and be really present. 
 
Laura Dugger: And there's hope because it's a learned skill. So you can grow in that. 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Oh yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: That's encouraging. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
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The School of Counseling also features graduate certificates that offer specialized training for students and licensed professionals. Certificates are available in Marriage and Family Therapy, Christian Sex Therapy, Trauma Counseling, Child and Adolescent Counseling, Spirituality and Counseling Practice, and Addictions Counseling. 
 
During my time at Richmont, specifically on their Atlanta campus, my life was profoundly changed. Spiritually, it was a season of growth through the personal connection with faculty and mentorship you benefit from as a student. And after graduation, it was easy to land my first job in California, as Richmont had a great reputation around the country. 
 
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Laura Dugger: Another one that you've talked about is developing romance, adventure, and sensual variety. What are some ways that couples can explore individual inspirations? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: One just little way that would be easy is planning sexual surprises. I think that's a way to get variety in romance and to keep that lover, that flirtatious "I like you, but I'm not only your roommate and your pairing partner. I'm your lover. You are important to me". So I think that trying to plan sexual surprises. [00:20:25] 
 
It's always fascinating to me when I give that assignment to clients, how creative they can be. One of them, it was Christmas time and so her husband was out jogging. The kids were gone that night. So she made up this palette with only the Christmas tree lights and she had on next to nothing lingerie. And when he came in the door, she was on there underneath it like his Christmas gift. Yeah, it was fun. I see a lot of different things like that that are just surprises that are playful at times or are sometimes just thoughtful. Like getting the babysitter. 
 
The reason I thought about that with surprise is that I have had wives at times have the kids gone and truly beat their husband at the door naked. I mean, you know, behind the door so the neighbors didn't see. But I'm thinking there's all kinds of things that are just surprising that we can do that keeps the flirtation and that sense of romance.
 
I think also when you look at romance, I get convicted all the time as being a therapist because I'll suggest things to my clients. [00:21:27] Like I had one husband, I said, "When's the last time you got her flowers? He said, "It's been a long time." That very week my wife said, "You haven't got me flowers in a long time." And I thought, "Here I am coaching romance and I am not very romantic."
 
Like one of my clients, he was going to be out of town. So he just put little notes all over. And when he called her, he said, "Go look in the spice closet and look in the cookie jar or go look in whatever." I thought, Oh. Sometimes I get angry at husbands that set such a good example. It makes me feel shamed, you know, like where are my notes? 
 
So I think there's a lot of things that we could do that are surprises, that are thoughtful, that are romantic, that really keep the buzz alive, you know, keep that energy going.
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. And you always use the word "playful". That is so playful. It keeps it fun and energizing. [00:22:30] Another aphrodisiac that you talk about is indulging in uninhibited feelings. So what do you see as some roadblocks to couples being able to be playful with one another? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Some of these things I've thought about so long, but I think with this one, it's the inability to be childlike. It's really fascinating to me that the great wisdom teacher Jesus said, if you really want to understand heaven, the kingdom of heaven, God, study little children. And I've really thought about that so much over the years that part of really expressing feelings is being childlike. 
 
I think of little kids, how excited they get about, they anticipate better than we do. We've gotten jaded as adults. So they can get excited for two hours over an ice cream cone. And then I think about little children, how curious they are. I mean, they just run around naked and don't know they're naked. [00:23:30] 
 
So I'm thinking, what do we do to really express feelings? I think part of it is learning to be childlike again, to squeal, to really express those feelings and to have more of them, and to be uninhibited around the feelings. 
 
Here's an exercise I sometimes give my clients. I'll say, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, so we're near an amusement park called Six Flags. Six Flags has like 10, 12 different roller coasters. So I'll say to them, I want you to go to Six Flags and just you and your wife spend a Saturday at Six Flags. If you have to take the kids, okay, but I want you to ride on about, you know, five or six or eight of the roller coasters. I want you to squeal and laugh and throw your hands up and ride in the back car, which bumps you more, and just really have fun and be childlike again. And I say, Oh, I think we could do that. That'd be hard. I think we could do that."
 
But here's really, I said, No, no, no, no, no. That's not my assignment. My assignment is I want you to bring all those feelings back to your bedroom. And I want you to squeal and laugh and feel like you're on the last car and just really have fun and anticipate just like a roller coaster. [00:24:32] 
 
It's hard as adults to be that playful and to be that uninhibited with feelings. We just get our feelings kind of, especially men, but women too... We just, you know, pink boys don't cry and, you know, and we kind of push the feelings back and we don't get as excited. Because I sometimes will say, do you groan or squeal? I think for a healthy sex life, you've got to learn to express feelings. 
 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. And that gives such a good picture to understand and bring it down to a different level. 
 
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We've got a few more that you've mentioned. You talk about creating spontaneous structure. So breaking that down, how do couples negotiate or compromise to find a healthy rhythm for how often is good for them to connect sexually? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I purposely put what seems like an oxymoron, spontaneous and structure. Those don't go together really. but I'm putting them deliberately together because I will say to couples, especially if they have two or three kids, I'll say, "You probably have, in a week, maybe four optimal times when you could actually have sex. So, are we going to camp on spontaneity? Are we going to camp on optimal times?
 
So I really feel like couple sex lives really suffer because they don't structure enough, and they don't realize that you can't be spontaneous anymore. You're going to have to be structured. It's so pleasing to me, like, couples that make a time sacred.
 
I was working with a couple of young couples and they knew that I didn't... They were in the same small group in their church, same small group, and they knew I never shared anything. [00:26:48] But I said, "I need to call that couple back." And he said, "Don't call them tonight. Thursday is their sex night." I said, "Is that what they call it? No, they call it their date night. They call it their date night, but they really schedule stuff off. They wouldn't pick up their phone on their date night. They make it sacred." And I thought, yes, Lord, thank you. We need to sometimes make things sacred and really have an optimal time that we protect, actually. 
 
So it's kind of funny with that couple, small group stayed off of their date night. Mom and dad stayed off of their date night. You know what I mean? If it was a concert they were going to, it probably couldn't be Thursday night. I mean, they would make exceptions. 
 
So where does spontaneity come in? I think spontaneity comes in during the optimal times. One couple came to me and they said, "We haven't made love in three months and we really enjoy sex." They went through the whole litany of, you know, mom came to visit and the kids got the flu and her periods and blah, blah, blah. They just tried to give me all the reasons why they like sex but hadn't made love in three months. [00:27:53] 
 
So I just said... I gave my optimal time speech. I said, "I think that you guys are just not going to have much of a sex life if you don't really think through and structure in sometimes." So they were trying to think through one time during the week and one time on weekend. They were saying, "I think maybe Friday night would be the best night." And I said, well, why don't you just make one of them sacred? 
 
So they were going to settle on Friday night and try to make that at least once a week for a while to see if they can get over the almost inertia that takes place when you don't have sex in a while. There's sexual inertia. A sex life at rest tends to stay at rest. And you got to kickstart. 
 
Anyway, Friday night was the night. And I said, "Don't make me call you. Laura, these were the last words going out of my office. "Dr. Doc, you have destroyed all of our spontaneity." And I said, "Oh, three months. you haven't made love and I'm destroying your spontaneity." I said, "I am so sorry for destroying your spontaneity."
 
But I said to them, "I'm not destroying your spontaneity. I said, "I'm not telling you when and how, and where to do anything on Friday night." I said, "You may make your lovemaking your dessert after a really great meal out together. Or you may come home and just have the kids gone and just enjoy each other before you go out to eat. [00:29:15] Or you may have the freedom of making love on the dining room table rather than your bed. I mean, I'm not destroying your spontaneity. I'm just saying if you don't have an optimal time, I'm sorry, that structure is really, really critical if they have a great sex life. 
 
Laura Dugger: It's so good. 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I don't work with any couples that aren't busy. Even if they don't have children, they're way too busy to have a great sex life unless they really plan some. 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes. I think that's crucial to hear. That's really good and practical. Let's hit on one more that you say it's communicating before, during, and after lovemaking. If couples are looking for a way to communicate today, what is one follow-up discussion question that you recommend they ask each other? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: To me, what's really important with the communicating is I'm actually wanting them to try to think through how they can communicate more about lovemaking and during lovemaking. Laura, what I would want them to really sort on would be how do you communicate about sex before lovemaking. How do you flirt? How do you initiate? How do you tease? How do you really do some anticipation and build-up? 
 
So I think things like tonight's the night, texting, and not to her boss, but to his... you know, and just being able to have that kind of anticipation and build up. So that would be applying especially to lovemaking before. And I think during lovemaking is really important. [00:30:40] I don't think couples communicate enough during lovemaking. 
 
Like one example that I have, and I thought this was so touching, was one of my clients had been really severely sexually abused and traumatized and so she got triggered a lot during their lovemaking. And she says, "You know what really keeps me in the present and keeps me with my husband and my lover?" I said, "What?" "When he talks to me." And she said, "He'll just talk and it's not always sexy, Doug. It's sometimes just "Oh I enjoy you" or "Isn't this fun?" And "Oh I'm looking forward to the weekend and being with you." And she said, "Just his voice keeps me present."
 
So I think we really lose at times some of the fun that we can have by not talking more. This was just really keeping her present and really involved. But I think it's also an aphrodisiac to be able to just spontaneously say, "Wow, that's great." 
 
I was doing a marriage conference somewhat recently, actually last Friday. So we were talking about this, talking during lovemaking, because I think it's a real aphrodisiac. And they were saying, "Wow, so you do." And he said, sometimes we do. And I said, "I pray during lovemaking." They said, no. And I said, Yeah. I said, "Sometimes I've just been praying, Lord, thank you for her vagina. Thank you for sex. Thank you. This is such a meaningful way to feel connected and feel one flesh." And I'm just enjoying this so much. Thank you. Thank you." [00:32:02] And they were just laughing. 
 
Then one of the young husbands in the thing said, "Well, I actually pray too. Oh Lord, please let me last." I said, "Well, that's a good prayer too, bud." 
 
So I think during the communicating and the enjoying and the talking and just really sharing, I think that's important. Then the after is just kind of the afterglow of really saying, "Oh, that was meaningful. Wow, I enjoyed this or whatever. So I think that there's that communicating that couples can do that really gives them just that intimate connecting that they want, you know, that meaning-making that this is fun, this is affectionate, this is really something I do with no one else. So I think the talking we don't do enough of. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And if somebody is local here in Atlanta, and they want to meet with you or schedule an appointment to learn more about these things or improve their sex life, where would you direct them to go? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, where you went to graduate school, Richmont Graduate University. [00:33:04] We have a sex therapy track. Actually, Atlanta really is blessed with a lot of sex therapists. But they can call me Doug Rosenau, R-O-S-E-N-A-U. The non-profit that I work with and help found is called Sexual Wholeness. And we're just working on our website now, but we have a good sexualwholeness.com. One word, sexualwholeness.com. 
 
We have a list of sex therapists there. Our certifying board is called the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists. So we have up there our associate and certified people around the country. So that would be another resource that they could have, sexualwholeness.com. They could go there and they could find resources, perhaps in their state at least, that could be helpful for them.
 
Laura Dugger: That's great. Then additionally, you've also published quite a few books. Could you just share a little bit about those so somebody who isn't local here could still go to Amazon and find one of these if they wanted to learn more about these topics? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Okay. Well, one of them is called Total Intimacy. I talk about the colors of intimacy and just how to build a better sex life. This may be stale or maybe trauma through an affair or other things or sexual abuse. [00:34:15] So it really is a good book for husbands and wives and a lot of good discussion questions and practical advice. Total Intimacy, just 100 pages. 
 
Then I also have written a book called A Celebration of Sex. And that's kind of my big manual that's been out since 94. It's the second edition. I'm thinking of a third edition. I always tell people when you get a 400-page manual, it's only... they should bump the price. But it's only like 18 bucks, which is pretty amazing in today's... it should be 26, but that's okay. 
 
So I think A Celebration of Sex would be one that would be worth buying, even if it's for a couple chapters in it. You know, just pick and choose. Body image or making love during the children years or whatever, you know the world's greatest lover which is more about attitude than it is about technique. 
 
Then I've spun off from A Celebration of Sex to A Celebration of Sex After 50 for aging. Then I have A Celebration of Sex for Newlyweds which is just a 135-page book that kind of condenses some of the bigger concepts in the A Celebration of Sex. [00:35:15] 
 
Laura Dugger: And there's one that you're working on currently that we can be looking out for a revised edition for singles. Could you tell us about that? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah. I just really feel like singles are neglected. And so often in my Christian background, we say to wait, but we never say why we're disciplining genital sexuality and why we feel like genital sexuality should be more, it can only be really fully expressed in the trusting committed relationship of marriage. 
 
It's called Soul Virgins. I'm gonna rework it some but it's the idea of a bigger picture. It's not what you're not doing, it's how can God call you to be sexually whole as a person, how can God help you embrace horny. That's a big word in my book. You need to embrace horny. All of us have sexual desire and arousal. It's what we choose to do with it that can affect us. It's not that we have them that's wrong. It's just how we choose to steward them, to discipline them really. 
 
That that'll be a book I would... yeah. If you have single friends and ones that are trying to make sense of sexuality. So now it's titled Soul Virgins. And soul in scripture oftentimes is just the total personhood, a three-dimensional body, mind, and heart personhood. [00:36:30] So I'm trying to say [euchacity?] is more than just what you don't do or do. It's your personhood. It's what you're trying to create, both single and married. Yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Thank you for sharing about all of those. I know they will help a lot of people. We're called The Savvy Sauce here for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or insight. So today as our final question, Dr. Doug, we'd love to hear, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: My savvy sauce today would be forget about spontaneity. Find those optimal times and get a regular sex life. It is amazing what that is intended to do to clear the air, to keep you connected, to keep you intimate. So really talk with your mate, what would be at least one time a week that we're going to try to keep sacred? What would be another time or two that we could fall back on or that we would enjoy together? So I think I would just say let's find some optimal times and make them sacred. [00:37:31] 
 
I don't think sometimes couples think through how having a good sex life isn't optional, that that really is God's intent for marriage, and that there really is a way... It's fascinating that couples that do have a good sex life, they don't argue as much and the arguments don't last as long. Somehow sex clears the air. 
 
It makes them feel more connected. They cut more slack somehow. Some of the research would say that a good sex life like that in marriage really does actually prolong your life, and it really is a stress release, and that those couples that make love frequently are happier. I like to think that as a sex therapist. 
 
But I don't think we do think through sometimes that this is not just us saying, do it. This is us saying, there's tremendous benefit by trying to find that out the whole time and that having regular connecting. I don't think wives understand at times that making love to their husband more than anything else makes them feel an item. I think more than anything else makes them feel... because wives will sometimes say to me, "Why does he go around grinning for a day or two?" I'm saying it's not just because he had an orgasm. It's because he really feels connected and likes you more somehow with just all that oxytocin flowing and the hormones and other kinds of things. 
 
So I think it really is so bonding. And more so sometimes and couples really even understand and it clears the air and it just is... it also is to me a way for adults to play. You know, how do we be childlike and play as adults? Well, God gave us sex, you know, in marriage. That really can be a playground. You know, a time of just really having fun together. [00:39:15] 
 
I think that when we look at the optimal, we've got to be careful to really realize this is important. There's a lot of benefits to this. 
 
Laura Dugger: Certainly. Well, that's such a great note to end on today. Thank you for all that you've contributed to this field. Thank you for your continuing work and encouraging even the next generation and your resources that are out there. You're a wonderful friend, and I appreciate your time today. 
 
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Thanks. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:40:17] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:41:17] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:42:18] 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

38 Practical Steps for Discipling Our Children with Licensed Professional Counselor, Jen Rathmell

38. Practical Steps for Discipling Our Children with Licensed Professional Counselor, Jen Rathmell
 
**Transcription Below**
 
John 10:10 (ESV) “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.” or 
 
John 14:6 (NIV) “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” 
 
Jen Rathmell is a wife, mother to three, missionary, and Licensed Professional Counselor. Her family currently lives in Thailand where and she works as a school counselor at the school her children attend. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.comand affiliated sites. 
 
Parenting by Paul David Tripp
Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Tedd Tripp
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: This episode was made possible by an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank. They paid the sponsorship fee to help spread the word that Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 
 
If you would like to learn more about Midwest Food Bank, make a donation, or see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 
 
Jen Rathmell is a wife, mother to three, missionary, and licensed professional counselor. Her family currently lives in Thailand, where she works as a school counselor at the school her children attend. You will quickly hear her passion for teaching as she shares practical steps for discipling our children. 
 
Here's today's chat. 
 
Hello, Jen. 
 
Jen Rathmell: Hi, thanks for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes, we're so excited to have you join us today. Let's just begin by hearing a bit of your story. 
 
Jen Rathmell: Well, it's a little bit complicated. I was born into a Christian home, pretty faithful parents, really heard the story of Jesus from a very, very early age, but kind of really had an elementary view of what that looks like and kind of thought that this was more about just being safe and secure and not going to hell. So that was the kind of beginning birthplace of my walk with Jesus, which is not a bad birthplace. It's a good birthplace. But it then evolved later into a more full understanding of what the gospel does for each of us. [00:02:07] 
 
As an early Christian, it's a lot about what we do and if we do it right or if we do it wrong, and then that kind of grows and matures into why do we do what we do? And had some really intentional mentors helping me through my high school time and began to really scratch at, what is driving you? What are your motives? And then that really begins to unpack the gospel.
 
So very thankful for faithful parents who were faithful, teaching us the Bible, teaching us that church was really important. And then other people who came alongside of us. Thankful to youth pastors, thankful to college professors, thankful to just friends that came alongside of me. 
 
That's some of the story, the maturation of my walk with God. And now here I am, you know, it's been probably 30 years of walking with the Lord. So that's kind of where I'm at now with my own children that I'm teaching to hopefully walk with the Lord. [00:03:11] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Just a few more details. Before we started recording, you mentioned you were born in Japan. Is that right?
 
Jen Rathmell: Yes, my parents were teachers overseas so I lived overseas my whole growing up years till really I was 25. Then they moved back here to America. I then moved to Germany. I was kind of transient most of my life. That was a shaping influence. 
 
I had friends that moved. So while I stayed in one place kind of on a military base and my parents were teachers, a lot of my friends were transient. They moved around a lot. So I got really good at goodbyes. I got really good at hellos. I got really good at assessing whether I was willing to be friends with people, a lot of those third culture kind of kids. 
 
Now we live overseas and are missionaries, and our kids are those same people. My one child said to me, "Wow, if we're the children of third culture kids, we're really messed up." So my husband was a chaplain's kid. So he was also a pretty transient military family. [00:04:17] 
 
Laura Dugger: And your husband is Buddy, and you all have three kids.
 
Jen Rathmell: Yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: You said you're visiting back in America right now, but currently you're living in Thailand. Can you just tell us a bit about what you're doing over there? 
 
Jen Rathmell: We had done youth ministry overseas in Japan for 10 years. My husband is a person who wants to change the world and I'm a person who changed a few people in my life. So he is a big picture guy, I'm a small picture guy. 
 
He was very moved by atrocities of human trafficking and he went on a trip to Cambodia and began to do some work with some underprivileged people and some anti-human trafficking things. And when he came back and landed in Japan, I saw him walk off the plane and I knew I was like, "We're moving. We are moving to Thailand. I know we are." So that was the beginning. 
 
That move kind of helped facilitate us in various ways of joining the fight against human trafficking, which I mean, most of your listeners will know that that's a very prevalent problem, especially in Southeast Asia. [00:05:24] Then I began to work at my kids' school. I'm busy making sure that the family is staying reasonably upright and my husband is changing the world. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. And you are definitely a big part of that. Do you mind sharing the ages of your kids currently? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Totally. We now have a senior. I'm a senior mom. She's 17, our oldest. Her name is Adrienne. We have Jack, who is our sophomore. He's just turned 16, and we have a 14-year-old 9th grader. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, our social media lead, Lauren, is the one who connected you and me, and I just asked her to describe you, and here's what Lauren had to say. "Jen is the best disciple-maker I've ever seen." How would you even define disciple maker and why is that an important goal for all of us to have? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Wow, really funny story about Lauren. I think I feel like I should tell you. She was at our house in Thailand — we met in Thailand — and we were sitting there, she was telling me all about this farm in Illinois and how they were just in Thailand for a little bit and they're going to go back and be farmers and all those kinds of things. [00:06:44] And the Lord really kind of whispered in my ear, she will be on your couch someday. And I'm a counselor. 
 
I remember that night saying to my husband, "That girl's going to be in my life someday. I just know it." And fast forward five years later, she's someone that I've got to be in a big part of her life. She is so dear to me. So I think if I was to define disciple-maker I would say that it's a person who is a teacher. Disciple means to teach basically. And discipline means the same thing. 
 
So what that would mean to me is that you are intentional about connecting and growing a person. And then we also, as people, are doing that. We're missionaries and you know, the good old missionary verse that's at the end of Matthew 28, where it's like, go into all the world and preach the gospel and make disciples. [00:07:46] 
 
And I will tell you, going to the world and preach the gospel is probably the most concentrated part of that verse. Because of course, we got to raise support. We got to get out into the world. We need to preach the gospel, because without preaching the gospel, there's really not disciple-making. But disciple-making is really kind of the end goal of all of missions, of all of our lives, of going across the street. 
 
I remember saying to my husband once, "No one will support us. No one will give money to us to make disciples, babe. Nobody will. It's just not trendy enough. It's not sexy enough. It's not saving people from child trafficking. Nobody's going to give us money to raise up and make disciples." 
 
And he was like, "Well, then we have to be faithful, because that's what Jesus says to do. So we're going to do that." So it's a calling on our lives. It's who we are. There's other people doing amazing things in other places, but we really take seriously that part of Matthew 28, where we are called to make disciples. [00:08:53] It's a slow and steady pace. It's not an easy win. It's a long haul. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's such a good definition. I even love how you said it's intentionally teaching and disciplining, which totally sounds like the definition of parenting. 
 
Jen Rathmell: Yes, it does. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now will you just share what you did through different seasons of parenting to disciple your own children? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Sure. Okay, so we have three kids. We now have a senior in high school. We have a sophomore and a freshman. At one point, they were all under 4 years old, and it was really fun for me to think through these different seasons. I really leaned heavily on Paul David Tripp and Ted Tripp and their philosophy of gospel-centered kind of parenting, so that I don't want to steal their thunder. This is really a lot of their thunder. [00:09:47] 
 
Toddlers are so unique in that, you know, as a counselor and a teacher of psychology, they have the most neurons ever in their brains, but they are everywhere and they need to learn. They need to learn to obey. That is not something that people necessarily find as an important goal. 
 
But I would say as toddlers, the most important thing we could do to teach our children was to obey. We needed them to come to us when we called them. We needed them to not delay in responding to us. We needed them to trust that there was someone who cared so deeply about them that they needed to submit to. 
 
It's not trendy, but it's important for us to tell our children, you must obey. So as they can learn that, it creates a submission to God, because ultimately we're transferring these little toddlers off to the world at some point in time. [00:10:58] So I would say that for toddlers, that is the most important intentional teaching was. You must obey and learn to submit. So that's toddlers. 
 
Grade school, things begin to move into a little bit more understanding. I think in grade school, the thing I would most encourage parents to do is to reflect the good gifts and talents that you see in your children. They're at a stage where they're starting to learn these things. They're starting to cook. They're starting to find interest in things. They're starting to feel like: I can actually press on the world and make a dent in it. 
 
There is no greater time for you to just lavish awareness in their lives. You're great at soccer. You're great at asking questions. You're great at forgiving. You're so great at being creative. We all have one child that's like this, and she's our last one. [00:12:00] And in Thailand, cheese is kind of like gold. And you buy it in this very large five pounds of cheese, and it's like $30, you know? So it's just precious. 
 
So we had this log of mozzarella cheese, and it's meant to last us for a couple months. And I come home to my third child, who's our creative genius, and she has it submerged in water. $30 is submerged in water. And I remember just being like, "I so badly just want to throw the bank account book at her." And she goes, "Mom, I know I'm figuring out how to make string cheese because I miss those little string cheeses from America." Because this mozzarella doesn't really do that, right? 
 
So she goes, "No, I'm just going to kind of melt it all down, and then I'm going to roll it." Of course, none of this is going to happen. And I know this is not going to happen. And I remembered that God gave me the strength to just look at her and say, "What a clever idea. You are so clever." But inside I was raging at $30, you know, turning into like kind of a mozzarella slime that was happening. [00:13:20] 
 
So in this stage of grade school, like swallow your pride, swallow your checkbook, and encourage the things that you see in your children. Because I'm not creative, and I realized I have to speak life into this girl. So that's one thing I would encourage to really intentionally teach and self-aware, give some self-awareness to your kids in grade school. 
 
Junior high. Junior high is just a pretty tumultuous time in general. Honestly, just hang on, hang on for dear life. Trust that God is doing something in your child's life and commit to them that you will see them through when you are not going anywhere. So I don't know that much of anything feels intentional and productive, but just be faithful through the junior high years. I've come out on the other side and it's beautiful. 
 
And then high school is where we're currently at. We have all high schoolers this year. It's when you see, you see that faithfulness, you know, from toddlerhood, you've taught children to be under submission to people because at this point they're going to have coaches, they're going to have other teachers, they're going to have youth group leaders, and they're going to have their voice, and they're going to disagree, and they're going to want to make an impact, and they're going to fall in love, and they're going to all of those things. [00:14:50] 
 
So the fruitfulness of a person understanding they're under authority, a person understanding their gifts, a person understanding that their parents will not leave them or forsake them in junior high, begins to kind of culminate in the high school years. And it's not perfect. You know, boys are a little bit behind this. I think they say like 9th-grade boys, you love them a lot more when they become juniors in high school. But you start to see the crafting of all of those intentional things that you have faithfully pressed into these kids' lives. 
 
Then, I don't have adult children, but I would tell you we are studying people with adult children like they are an AP exam right now. And every stage we found people who we were like, That's what we want our kids to look like. I mean not like them exactly, not necessarily be great at what they do. But their soul we wanted them to be at that place. 
 
So we are studying adult children like it's, you know, some sort of standardized test right now. And the thing that we have watched is it's essential, it's essential to just become your child's greatest fan. [00:16:10] You transition out of the intentionality. If it's asked for, you give it. This is what we've kind of seen. 
 
And the intentionality is we love you. We're thrilled about you. We're your biggest fan. So that's what I would say. I have been hallmarks and then futuristic hallmarks of how we might teach children. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love all of those tips. As a parent, there's so many good things that we want to teach our children, such as finding joy or working hard, serving others, giving generously, and the list can go on. So how did you decide what to focus on? 
 
Jen Rathmell: One of the biggest problems with parents is we just are always assessing, right, maybe too much so that we want to ride that line of intentionality, but also some of it just letting God's Spirit do work. So I would say that the most impacting times, maybe I'm turning your question into my own question, the times where my children have seemed to understand kind of a sticky faith kind of thing, where lessons like working hard has really stuck to them, have been when we as parents are going through certain things and we invite them into that world. [00:17:28] 
 
So we had a business's mission project — Lauren knows all about this. She walked through it with us — that just failed. I mean, we went into crazy debt. We used every bit, every drop of our money, believing that God had called us into something. And at the end of the day, looking at each other going, "God called us into failure," which was super hard. 
 
But I will tell you that along those paths, we worked super hard. We spent a Christmas in Cambodia launching this business. My kids, you know, we had like a little tiny tree in a hotel room and we were working eight to eight at night throughout their Christmas break trying to launch this business's mission. And it was two years later where Adrienne, our oldest, said, "I watched you clinging to God like you've never clinged before." 
 
I think that when we are going through things, when we are scared, when we are afraid, when we are trusting God, bring your children into that. They will see the stickiness of your faith. They are seeing you struggle. They are seeing you doubt. They are seeing you rejoice. They are seeing you be a part of what God's given to do and will do in their future and what their parents are doing. [00:18:50] 
 
So you would just constantly be thinking, how can I be sharing in the work that God is doing and the lessons that He's teaching me? Bring them in. And that will really give them the traction that I think that they need. 
 
Laura Dugger: That actually gives me a lot of freedom because instead of just adding one more thing to the list or knowing what to choose to focus on, you're saying, You're in it, just be open and vulnerable and teach them along the way. Is that right? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Yeah. I think if we are just saying to our children, here's where we are, here's our rejoicing, here's our lows, here's our highs, walk with us and come alongside of us and we'll rejoice with you, they'll learn as we are trying to be faithful. They will see your faithfulness in serving the Lord in whatever way you're doing it. It doesn't matter. It's kind of like Deuteronomy 6, right? Just walk with them. [00:19:48] 
 
Intentionality is good. But what I've seen kids really stick with them is when they walked a mile with their parents as they trusted the Lord. We need both. 
 
Laura Dugger: What are you glad that you did choose to emphasize with your children? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Definitely the concept of the heart. You know, we have a really positive firstborn. She's a very insightful person. I remember her a couple of years ago saying to me, "if you had not taught me the heart is the wellspring of life, I would know nothing about what I know when it comes to motives and ideas and why I do what I do." And I thought, "Wow, I'm so thankful that we were very, very, very diligent to say, "What is coming out of your heart?” 
 
Out of the heart the mouth speaks, right? So when my kids would say things like "I didn't mean that," you have to call that out biblically. No, actually you really did mean it because your mouth just facilitated the picture of your heart. Now, let's talk about that. Let's talk about how we need to repent and how good Jesus is that he would die for sinners like you and me." [00:21:03] 
 
So if you disconnect behavior from the heart, you are setting yourself up for a disconnect from who and what the gospel is in a person's life. You just have to not deal only with behavior, but you must emphasize the heart. Otherwise, they will never need the gospel. Never. 
 
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
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To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now on the flip side, what are the things that you're glad you did not focus on?
 
Jen Rathmell: We didn't get our kids involved in everything. Well, one, we lived overseas so that was helpful, but we just didn't try to make our children be good at everything and we didn't try to make them busy all the time. And I'm thankful for that because I really felt like the most stable thing for our children is a reasonably stable marriage and home. [00:23:11] 
 
So I really believe the best gift you give your children is a good marriage, a great marriage even. So we spent a lot of time to probably what other people thought looked maybe a little selfish, cultivating our marriage and not cultivating our kids in every sport and every club and every activity in the world. We just spent a lot of time working on our marriage, working on being faithful, and creating a pretty safe and secure base for our kids. So we made an intentional choice to not be a part of our lives, those kinds of just busy activities. 
 
Laura Dugger: And as you did choose your marriage, what did that look like before they were even school age? What are some examples of what you did? 
 
Jen Rathmell: We had toddlers, similar to you, Laura, and at one point my husband looked at me and said, We've got to get a nanny. And I died a little inside at that moment because I thought I should be good enough to have margin in my life for three toddlers under age four. [00:24:18] 
 
And we had a former student, because we were in youth ministry, and she was like, "I would love to come be your nanny." We lived in a 900-square-foot apartment in Japan, which is a lot kind of there. And all of our kids slept on the floor in one room, and we had a room for our nanny. And it was just those moments where even though for me, I was like, I want to be good enough to have margin and to be a good mom, but my husband stepped in and said, we need help. 
 
We called one of our former students who was looking for something to do, and she helped us raise our kids for six months. And it was just what we needed. We just needed some help. So not being afraid to ask for help, not being afraid to be creative, not being afraid to drink a cup of coffee at 6 p.m. so that you can stay up and be alert and be around your husband as opposed to falling asleep with them when they fall asleep at 8 p.m., which was the story of my life. [00:25:17] 
 
You know, just thinking outside the box and just making some hard calls that will maybe even be hard for you and your image. You know, I had to lay that down. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, if you could go back and give yourself advice as a new mama, what would you say to yourself? 
 
Jen Rathmell: I was terrible at making my kids eat new foods. So if you were to ask them, they'd be like, Mom, you should have forced us to eat new foods. So that's like a simple, dumb thing. But if I could go back... and I said to my children, "I guess if that's my regret, I feel like, okay, we made it, you know, like in some small way. But I wish I had had the energy to force my kids to eat things that I don't like, you know, because I was the cook and so I would just make what I like. And now they kind of only like what I like. But they're growing in that and God can redeem it. It's simple. It's dumb. [00:26:10] So, you know, have your kids eat things. 
 
The bigger, like big picture thing, and this is what I've learned, there are lots of ways to parent your children and love the gospel, and to teach the gospel. In fact, Lauren and I have a friend whose parents are so radically different than we do but her children, I am convinced, will love the Lord Jesus, and they will understand His ways, and they will serve Him. But she parents so differently than we do. 
 
You know, we're kind of more of those people who have schedules and stuff. And then we have another friend who just had their third child and the word schedule would never come up in her vocabulary ever. They stay up till whenever. But I would say this, there's lots of ways to teach your children the gospel. And it doesn't have to look like this kind of very organized, scheduled person. 
 
I did not think that when I was young. I thought there was only one way to kind of teach the children in a good way. [00:27:15] But it really was just the way that I'm wired. 
 
So if you're not an organized person, I would just bless you to be a person who loves their children and faithfully teaches them God's ways. Because more than likely, you might not have organized kids either. 
 
So there's a lot of variety and a lot of roads that lead to gospel-believing, humble children who want to please God. So that's what I would say. And I would just relieve myself from probably a lot of judging and encourage myself to be more encouraging to those kinds of parents. 
 
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The Bible contrasts Satan and Jesus in John 10:10. In the ESV, it says, "The thief only comes to steal and kill and destroy. I come that they may have life and have it abundantly." So can you break that down for us? How do you see Satan trying to steal, kill, and destroy the family today? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Well, well, I mean, it doesn't take much, right? You just have to look around and you see the brokenness of the world. One of the things I would say to our kids a lot was, Oh, honey, there's not a covenant relationship here between me and the children, but I have a covenant relationship with my husband. So I was really careful to distinguish my relationship with my children, which is wonderful, and I will die for them, but I'm not in a covenant relationship with them the way that God puts me and my husband in a covenant relationship. [00:29:33] We are one, and the children and I are not one. 
 
So, I think there's no question that the onslaught of marriage, as the Bible describes it, is just... it's going for the jugular. And it's because that covenant relationship is defining and it's meant to exemplify the church and Christ's love for the church. So Satan is just... you can just see it in every kind of way, right? Redefining marriage, the statistics even in the church of marriages that are breaking down. 
 
And here's the thing. I hope that many of your people that are listening to this in situations where maybe they have a broken marriage and they are kind of finding their way. It's not unredeemable. But it's so difficult to manage. You have multiple heart wounds in a broken marriage and in a broken family. And those heart wounds are kind of the fodder and the food for Satan to lie to your children. [00:30:38] 
 
I cannot tell you... I mean, Laura, you know this, I know this, that the lies that Satan is speaking to your children largely are coming from these wounds that they've experienced and in a broken home situation. That is just tragic. I just feel like Satan is out to get our families. It's why I say, don't do ballet. Go on a date with your husband. 
 
Your kid will be so much better off than being in a ballet class for you and your husband being unified together. That is exponentially going to impact your child. Now, it takes a lot of faith to believe that because you're keeping up with the world, and everybody's in ballet, and everybody's doing something, and they're in theater, and they're in Christian theater, and they're in all kinds of things. But it doesn't matter what they're in if you, as a married couple, are falling apart. It doesn't matter. No ballet class is going to assuage that pain. [00:31:39]
 
So, definitely, first thing he's going for, Satan, is stealing the hearts of married people. We've got to be diligent to be very, very protective of our marriages, even over our children, for sure, over our children, because they will just benefit from the fruit of a good marriage. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love how you said that's going to take a lot of faith. 
 
Jen Rathmell: Yes, lots of faith. And it's going to be very countercultural to not have your children be first.
 
Laura Dugger: Now, completing that verse, from your experience, how do you view Jesus as giving the family life and life abundantly? 
 
Jen Rathmell: I love the verse where Jesus says, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. This verse kind of comes alongside of that, right, where it's like, you think of the way, like Jesus has created a path for us. There's so much imagery in scripture that talks about Jesus lighting the way for us, you know, that God will light the path for us. [00:32:42] He is walking with us. He is beside us. He's illuminating the way. 
 
So we have a God, a God who's willing to help us in our time of need. He's walking with us. He's illuminating the step ahead of us. That's Jesus as the way, the way to God. He's giving us the path there. We have a destination in mind, and he's going to lovingly shepherd us there. 
 
We have the truth, which we have to have, otherwise we're just aimlessly bobbling out in the ocean. So we have something much bigger than ourselves. We have something that we put our faith in, that we believe it's true. I can't tell you how many times my children have said, What if we're wrong, mom? And I love and cringe at that statement, right? And I'm like, We believe what Jesus said. 
 
There's a lot of ways we can unpack this apologetically, but you can't escape the fact that we are going to risk and have faith that Jesus is the truth. He is what he says He is. He has done what He says He will do, and He is preparing a place for us. [00:33:45] So we have a path. We have truth in the person of Jesus, and we see that ethically in our dilemmas and morality today, where we have got to land there and have a safe place. 
 
And then we have life, which is the hope of an unbroken world. I mean, wow. We talked about stealing stuff that Satan's coming to steal. Everywhere you look, it's broken. Everywhere you see something it's broken. So I think we need the promise of life. 
 
Think of a toddler. A day in the life of a toddler is basically like an Imax 3D version of brokenness, right? You have stains and you have dirt and you have punching and you have a human will and you're constraining the human will and you're speaking to a person who just has way too many neurons for his good, and you don't understand why they're not responding to you, and all sorts of problems. And we've got to believe that there's life and restoration and God will come and make this new. 
 
You know, one of the things I was just talking about with one of my friends here, there's these glasses, right, that allow colorblind people to see colors. [00:35:02] If you watch the videos, you'll see so many of these people begin to just break down. They are overcome with emotion and they'll literally kind of fall to the ground. 
 
I teach in my class, I was like, do you know why that's happening? It's because it's a glimpse of life. It's the broken becoming unbroken. It's redemption. And kids are crying in my class. I have goosebumps talking about this because it's exactly what Jesus says. I'm gonna make the world right again. I'm going to allow you to see when you can't see. 
 
And those in Chroma glasses are a picture of what Jesus says He's going to do in our lives. When we see our kids who have messed up and are messing up and will mess up, Jesus is saying, I'm going to put all those things back together again, and I'm going to help you even though you're broken. And redemption is coming. [00:36:02] 
 
If we don't have a path to heaven, if we don't have truth that's bigger than us, and if we don't have the reminder that life is coming, we just aren't going to be able to stay in the game. And that's what Jesus is saying is, I'm going to give you life, and it's going to be abundant. And if we can resonate with all of those truths and things that he says He is, we've got a fighting chance.
 
Laura Dugger: Well, I think you and I could probably just talk for hours. I'm loving this. But maybe our listeners are about to walk in the door from work or go get their kiddos up from quiet time. So what piece of encouragement would you like to offer them before they transition to the next part of their day? 
 
Jen Rathmell: Discipline yourself to realize it's not the end. It seems like Groundhog Day. I remember that. I remember looking at the clock going, It's only 4 o'clock. I think the last time I looked at the clock, which seemed like hours before, it was 5 to 4. You know, that's like a dark hour, 4 to 5. It's a dark hour before dinner. [00:37:05] 
 
I just remembered being like, I need to remember this, and I need to remember it does go fast. All these wise women in my life said it goes so fast. Well, now I'm hopefully one of those people saying to you, it will go fast. They will be seniors before you know it. And to continue plowing and sowing in faithfulness. 
 
And then sit back and enjoy the ride, because it's God who says He makes the fruit. We are not in charge of making the fruit. We are in charge of being faithful. God is going to pull it all together. It's not about you saying your kid's doing the right thing or he's doing the wrong thing. God's going to put it all together, and there's going to be fruit. And that takes a long time. 
 
It's an act of faith to keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. And God is going to make fruit out of that. He's going to weave all that stuff together. And before you know it, you'll be kind of where I am looking at these people that God gave me and going, Wow, they're humans, and they're going to go do things for the Lord. And they're going to sin against us, and we're going to sin against them, but God is going to help us. I'm so glad that, you know, we did this so long ago. [00:38:20] 
 
Just give yourself the treasure of releasing the outcome. Because God makes the fruit. And then just glory in the days that you've been faithful and say, thank you, Lord, for helping me be faithful today. Help me be faithful tomorrow. 
 
Laura Dugger: My husband and I have a marriage mentor, and he said something similar to what you're saying. That you never reap what you sow in the same season. And I love that you're reminding us just continue to be faithful. 
 
Jen Rathmell: Yeah, God does the work. He does the heavy lifting, really. So you can just kind of sit back and enjoy that, right? 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. So Jen, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Jen Rathmell: If I was to tell you anything that has really produced the most fruit in my teaching and in my life, it is never, never, never too early to tell your kids the gospel. You can say it to them when they're infants, swinging in a swing. Just say to them that God loves you so much that He died for you and He wants to continue to redeem you for the rest of your life. Say that to them when you're nursing them. Say that to them when they are two and you think they don't know anything that you're saying to them. [00:39:44] 
 
I think probably one of the most gratifying emails I ever got was a friend of mine who said, Thank you for telling me that it's never too early to tell my kid about the gospel of Christ. My kid has just accepted Christ, and for so many years I've just been telling him the gospel, and he is aware of it and understands it and knows it."
 
I just think we sometimes don't give our kids the benefit of the doubt that they would understand biblical truths. So use words like redemption and use words like faithfulness and sowing and reaping. Use all of those things. 
 
Faithfully teach even when you think they can't understand the gospel. The image of God is in them. They can understand and it will resonate and bear fruit in them. So don't feel stupid or silly for teaching them the gospel. You want them to hear it from day one till day end. You want them to hear the gospel. So create that appetite in them, and they will respond to it. They will understand the image of God is in them. They will know. [00:40:48] 
 
Laura Dugger: What an incredible topic to close on. Jen, you are such a wise woman and a great role model, so thank you for sharing your time and wisdom with us today. 
 
Jen Rathmell: Yeah, it was so fun. Thank you for inviting me. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:42:00] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:43:09] 
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.