*The Savvy Sauce*

77 How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson

77. How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Zechariah 4:10a (NLT) “Do not despise these small beginnings, for the LORD rejoices to see the work begin,"
 
Jeff Henderson is an entrepreneur, speaker, pastor and business leader. For the past 15 years, he has helped lead two of North Point Ministries multi-site locations in Atlanta, Georgia - Buckhead Church and Gwinnett Church. He also helped launch North Point Online which now reaches over 200,000 people. He is the founder of several organizations including Champion Tribes, a rite-of passage experience for fathers with middle school sons; Preaching Rocket, an online coaching program with over 20,000 participants; Launch Youniversity, a podcast for entrepreneurs; and the FOR Company, helping businesses and non-profit organizations grow. Jeff was recently named by Forbes Magazine as one of the 20 speakers you shouldn’t miss. Prior to working as a pastor, Jeff started his career in marketing with the Atlanta Braves, Callaway Gardens, Lake Lanier Islands and Chick-fil-A Inc., where he led the company’s regional and beverage marketing strategies. Jeff and his wife Wendy have been married 22 years and have a daughter, Jesse, and a son, Cole. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Know What You’re FOR by Jeff Henderson
The War of Art by Steven Pressfield
Launch Youniversity
Jeff’s Website
theforcompany.com
 
Previous Episode with Jeff Henderson: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Floral Designs
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:18]
 
Laura Dugger: Located in Morton, Illinois, Floral Designs is a full-service florist, as well as a home decor store. They are not your typical florist, as they offer fresh floral designs that are one-of-a-kind. They have a beautiful showroom, as well as offering in-home consultations for their clients. Visit them at floraldesigns-ltd.com, or check out their showroom. 
 
Jeff Henderson is one of my favorite people to interview, so I'm excited to let you know we are bringing him back as a returning guest. Jeff just released his first book titled, Know What You're For: A Growth Strategy for Work, an Even Better Strategy for Life. We're going to learn more about his book and writing process, in addition to some practical life tips he shares as he mentors us. 
 
I do want to let you know that we had a few issues with sound quality, especially at the beginning, but it gets much better, so please hang with us. [00:01:23] 
 
Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Jeff. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Laura, it's great to be back with you. Thanks for having me again. 
 
Laura Dugger: My pleasure. And for anyone who missed our previous recording, will you just give us a glimpse of your current stage of life? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Sure. My wife, Wendy, and I have been married 22 years, and we have a college sophomore daughter at Samford University in Birmingham. And my son, Cole, is in his junior year at North Gwinnett High School, right next door to our church here in Gwinnett County in Atlanta. 
 
We serve here as... I'm the lead pastor at Gwinnett Church, and I've been on staff here for 16 years. Before that, I was lead pastor at Buckhead, and then before that, worked in the chicken business, as you well know, with Chick-fil-A. So that's kind of a little bit of our story. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. You have some very exciting news today, because you just came out with your first book. So will you tell us about your book? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Absolutely. Well, as you well know, I've really been fortunate to work for two thriving organizations, Chick-fil-A and North Point Ministries, and I've had a front-row seat. [00:02:24] One of the things that both of these organizations have experienced is explosive growth. And through that explosive growth, they've been able to impact more communities than they ever imagined. 
 
So I began to wonder, what caused them to grow? And then I began to figure it out and say, you know what, if I could boil this down to two questions, I bet it would be really helpful. Because, Laura, as you know, there's all sorts of reasons why an organization or a church or a nonprofit grows. But if you could boil it down to just one sentence or a couple of questions, could I do that? 
 
So I worked through that and basically kind of came to these two questions. The first question is, what do you want to be known for? What do you want your church to be known for? What do you want your business to be known for? What do you want your podcast to be known for? Then the second question is, what are you known for? 
 
So the first question, what do you want to be known for, that's your vision. That's your uniquely different proposition to the world if you're a business. This is what makes this podcast different. This is what makes this restaurant different. But the second question is the customer's experience with your vision. [00:03:25] 
 
Now, the reason these two questions are important is when these two questions match, when the answers to these two questions are the same, when what you want to be known for is actually what you are known for, something powerful happens, Laura. You access the greatest form of marketing the world has ever and will ever see. And that's positive word-of-mouth advertising. The customers start telling other customers about your church, about your business, about your organization.
 
The reason this is important is in today's world, as you well know, a brand or a business is no longer what it tells customers it is. A brand is what customers tell other customers it is. All the power is now in the hands of the customers. So you can say that you're the best organization and this is what you want to be known for. But if that's not what you're actually known for, there will be a gap and sales and momentum will start to slow down. 
 
So what the book is about is trying to make sure those two questions match. And I do that by calling it the core four. [00:04:26] There's four groups of people that you need to be for to basically shrink the gaps of those questions. 
 
And so it's been fun for me to kind of process through my experience at Chick-fil-A and North Point. But not only that. I've had the opportunity to work alongside of or to observe a lot of great companies and I've applied these two questions to them. And as I've seen them do this, they've experienced the growth. 
 
So that's what the book's about. It's probably a little odd for a pastor to be writing about a marketing or business book. But I'm a really odd person to begin with. So my hope is that this has an impact on business people, certainly pastors and church leaders for sure. But I think it's a principle that we can all learn from. 
 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. I love hearing where this idea originated. You had also mentioned a long time ago in our first episode that you knew that you were blessed by working with these great churches and Chick-fil-A. But somebody called you out and said, "It's not just a blessing. This is stewardship." So is it just one person or was that multiple conversations you were having that caused you to then write the book? [00:05:32] 
 
Jeff Henderson: It really was multiple. One of whom was my wife, Wendy, who just speaks constant wisdom into my life. But others like my mentor, John Woodall. And then my wife gives me a hard time, Laura, that I've never really left Chick-fil-A. I'm still on the Chick-fil-A voicemail system. I'm down there a lot. But still to this day I get people asking me questions about Chick-fil-A. Then when I'm at Chick-fil-A, people are asking me questions about Northpoint. 
 
So through those questions, I thought, wow, I've actually been on both sides. I understand. Even though I left Chick-fil-A many years ago, I'm still very involved. I kind of know what's happening in the organization. So as people started asking me questions about the organizations and then I heard Wendy and John and others, I just thought, "I think they're right. I got to be a better steward of this opportunity and share with people what I've learned." 
 
I'll give you a quick story real quick about this. The book opens with me driving Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, to a speaking engagement. I can't even remember where we were going or what happened, but that car ride, Laura, has followed me. [00:06:35] And that was 20 years ago. 
 
What I remember about that car ride, Laura, is that Truett asked me questions, but it wasn't anything about the business. He asked me, how am I enjoying working here? He asked me about Wendy. He asked me about our kids. He asked me about my parents. He knew my parents. We talked about life. I asked him, how did he create this billion-dollar business but still be a wonderful husband and dad. We had a great conversation. 
 
At the end of the night, I dropped Truett off, and I'm driving away, and I'm thinking, "Wait, we didn't talk about the business." Truett was more interested in me than he was getting information out of me about the business. And that's when I discovered the secret, one of the secrets that made his business grow. 
 
This was so helpful for me to process this, Laura. I think it will be helpful for our listeners. That Truett was more interested in the business growing people than he was people growing the business. And that's how his business grew. So let me say that again. Truett was more interested in the business growing people versus people growing the business. That's how the business grew. [00:07:44] 
 
And here's what I mean by that. That night, I would have run through a brick wall for Truett Cathy. Because he was interested in me and because he was for me, I wanted to be even more for him and for Chick-fil-A and to prove that he could trust me even more because of his belief and interest in me as a human being. 
 
I see that lost in the business world. I see that as a gigantic opportunity. If people in the business world will actually be interested in the people who work in the business, the people in the business will be for the business. It just seems so obvious and so simple, but it's so very rare. So when I experienced that, that here's the billionaire founder of Chick-fil-A asking me questions about me, I never got over that. That's why I opened the book with that story. 
 
Laura Dugger: I can't wait for people to read your book. I hope that it is a catalyst for change to move in that direction. I've experienced Truett in the same way. I didn't know him nearly as well as you did. Only actually had the opportunity to meet him once in person. But we hear so many stories through Chick-fil-A. So one more while we're on the topic of him. [00:09:00] 
 
Jeff Henderson: Sure. 
 
Laura Dugger: He was married to Jeannette, his loving wife. And so at his funeral, if you can track with me, there's a woman who works at Chick-fil-A, her name's Anita Costello. I've always really admired her. And I remember her sharing this story that she was going through the line and just saying, "You have my sympathy" to Jeannette. And Jeanette said, "Okay, hi, what's your name? Okay, you work with Chick-fil-A. Do you enjoy your work here? 
 
In the line before they're burying Truett, that's what his wife was asking the people. They cared so much individually for everyone there. 
 
Jeff Henderson: Wow. That was Truett and Jeanette. I think that illustrates another lesson that I learned from them. And I think this is true for any organization to ask the people that work there: what does it feel like to work here? What does it feel like to work here? Because people, Laura, as you well know, when they leave the office, the feelings go with them and they show back up the next day. And sometimes we create organizations that are void of emotions. But they're there. They're just under the surface. So what does it feel like to work here? [00:10:08] 
 
Laura Dugger: You have so many good, thought-provoking questions. What are some other takeaways that you want readers to learn after they read your book? 
 
Jeff Henderson: Well, there's... I call it the core four. There's four groups of people that you need to be for as a business or church organization. The first is the customers. That seems so obvious. But really, if I could talk to business leaders, the spotlight and the focus on the business is sometimes so on the business, it excludes the customers in an ironic way. 
 
I point this out to business leaders when I ask them to go to Instagram and count the last ten posts about what did they post. This is true for churches is that most of the time, nine out of ten or ten out of ten are all about the business. 
 
And here's why this is important. If a business were a person, many businesses would be considered narcissists because it's all about them. "We're talking about us. We're so much better than our competition. Look at us. Look at us. Look at us." What we're trying to do is create raving fans. Totally understand that. Still think we need to do that. [00:11:08] 
 
But here's how the game is changing. Thriving organizations in the future will understand that it's not about trying to create raving fans but about becoming a raving fan of the customer. That's where the game is going. 
 
So a very practical suggestion on this, Laura, is that many organizations, many big brands forget the social and social media. It's not social media. It's just an electronic brochure. I was with a big multibillion-dollar brand the other day. I pulled up their Instagram. They had a post, they got 89 comments. Not a single one of them was liked or commented on from the organization. 
 
I told them, I said, "If we came to your organization as a customer and asked you a question and you turned your back on me and didn't respond, you would be embarrassed by that and horrified that that was your reaction. You're doing that every single time you post because your customers are talking to you and you're not talking back." That's a huge mistake. The reason is, is the spotlight is all on the business and they're not focusing and talking to the customers. And that's just one small example. [00:12:11] 
 
So what I try to share with businesses and churches is, and this is just one example, social media is an opportunity for you to get really personal and to tell customers you're actually paying attention to them, you're cheering them on, and you're noticing them. 
 
I'll give you another quick example and then we'll move on. But a friend of mine recently said she works at this massive, huge, wonderful ministry. And she said, You know what? I'm a big Starbucks fan. I posted about being in a Starbucks and Starbucks commented back and said, 'Thank you so much for loving Starbucks.'" And she said, "I took a screenshot of that and sent that all to my friends." 
 
I said, "Okay, two questions. How long ago was that?" She said, "A year and a half ago." I said, "Okay, a year and a half ago. You're still talking about it, aren't you?" I said, what other Starbucks post on Instagram did you take a screenshot of and send to your other friends? She said, "None." 
 
So what happens in that moment is that Starbucks got really personal with one customer. And that leads to a principle that I've learned from Andy Stanley. This is something I've learned from North Point. [00:13:12] Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone. Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone. 
 
Starbucks can't comment on every post, but they can comment on some. And that one post, one of their customers is still talking and spreading the news and the word about Starbucks a year and a half later. 
 
So that goes back to our two questions: that when what you want to be known for and Starbucks wants to be known as this local community brand, when that's what you're known for and somebody is telling someone else a year and a half later, Starbucks noticed me. They have now become positive word of mouth for you. They have become a sales force for free. So that's just one strategy for the customer. There's one for the team. There's one for the larger community. You need to have a bigger purpose than just towards your customers. 
 
And then the final group is for you. The biggest gift that you can give customers, the team, and a larger purpose and community is an inspired you. So what we talk about in the book is, how can you be for those four groups of people? [00:14:12] 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is such a timely message. Clearly, you're a gifted communicator with all these stories and illustrations. You really drive home the point. 
 
And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
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Laura Dugger: But now getting really practical, you already had a very full schedule. So when did you make time to write this book? 
 
Jeff Henderson: That's a great question. There's a principle, biblical principle, that's so encouraging and so helpful, especially if you're starting out on anything. And that is don't despise the days of humble beginnings. Don't despise the days of humble beginnings. [00:16:09] 
 
So one of the things I learned years ago from a book called On Writing, Stephen King, is that he had a goal of writing 1,000 words a day, six days a week. That was it. And he said, amateurs wait on inspiration. The professionals get up and go hunt it down. And I thought, "That's really interesting." I said, "Well, I'm not obviously Stephen King, but what if I just wrote 500 words a day for five days a week? What would be the math on that that would get me to the word count goal that I would need to get?" 
 
Because typically in something like this, you're like, "I've got to take three months off and go on vacation and just write, you know, be in a log cabin and be inspired and do all that. But I don't have the luxury of that because I have a job that I love here at Gwinnett Church. Things are growing and I've got a family and all that. I can't take three months off to write a book. 
 
So that's what I did, Laura. I just wrote 500 words a day for five days a week. Some days I would check the word count every five minutes and it was like I've gone two words now. [00:17:09] Some days were terrible, just awful struggle. 
 
And that's what Stephen King said. Some days you're going to really struggle to get to your word count goal. But he said there could be other days when you're sitting there working and inspiration is going to show up and you're going to go from 500 words to 3,000. And that's what I discovered. So I gave myself the permission to write bad. Don't edit along the way and then come back and edit during the process, a later process. 
 
There's another book called The War of Art, not a Christian book. Just want to warn everybody. Stephen Pressfield. But Stephen Pressfield said, When you show up and put something on a screen or write something on a piece of paper, you win. It doesn't have to be good. You win when you push against the resistance. So what I discovered is if I did the math correctly, I would need to do that 80 days for five days. And that's what that would get me to my word count goal. That's what happened.
 
The other thing that I've learned from a friend of mine, [Carrie Newhall?], Carrie says, "Do what you're best at when you're at your best. Do what you're best at when you're at your best. So what I discovered about myself and know about myself is I'm more creative and better early in the morning than I am past noon or in the afternoon or evening. [00:18:18] So I did most of my writing early in the morning and the edits would come later in the day. 
 
So for me, I would ask our listeners, when are you at your best? That for me was in the morning. So knowing I had a word count goal, knowing that I'm at my best when I'm in the morning, that's when I'm the most creative, was a huge help to me. And it took the pressure off. It took the pressure off because I know, hey, yeah, I'm writing this book and I'm only, you know, 500 or 5,000 words in. But don't panic. Just get up and write 500 words today and then get up tomorrow and do 500 words tomorrow. You're going to get there because you've already done the math. 
 
For me those small bite-sized pieces it's not just true for a book. It's really true for anything in life: Parenting, saving financially. That consistency over time really leads to benefits. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. Do you have any other routines or habits to reach some of your goals? 
 
Jeff Henderson: I do. I have. We talked a little bit about this at our last podcast. [00:19:20] I have a weekly focus document that I look at rather frequently. But the other thing that I was taught by a friend of mine is a great day begins the night before. So a great day begins the night before. 
 
In fact, from a biblical standpoint, it's really... I think we have it backwards in our Western culture. We think the day starts in the morning. Actually, the day starts at sundown. That's when the day starts. So his advice to me is, hey, before you go to bed at night, write down three ways that tomorrow will be a win. So before you go to sleep, you already know how tomorrow is going to win. He goes, subconsciously, it's going to help you as you're sleeping, as you get up and know what I've got to do to make this day a win. 
 
So a great day begins the night before. I'm telling you, if your listeners would just try this for five days, just five days. Write three things down before you go to sleep that will make tomorrow, the next day a big win. It doesn't have to be, you know, going to go on a vacation. It could be "I'm going to write a note of encouragement to my kids. I'm going to work on that project for 30 minutes and I'm going to do something about our finances." I'm just making this up. If you just do that, you'll hit the ground already knowing where you should go. [00:20:37] 
 
So a great day begins the night before. That's not just a wisdom principle. It's a biblical principle. It's how really God created the world. So I would just say that's a really helpful principle to lean into. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and if listeners would only be willing to change one thing about their daily routine today, is that where you would advise them to begin? 
 
Jeff Henderson: I would because I think it's going to put your mind at ease. I think it'll actually help you get better sleep. You know, before we go to sleep, if we're not careful, we can think about everything that went wrong or all the stress, all that. And we struggle going to sleep. But if we can put our mind in a more positive direction, that's going to help us not only in the day that's about to arrive. It's going to help us sleep better. 
 
A tired, exhausted you is just not going to perform better over time than a rested you. And I know we have listeners who have young kids who are like, "Jeff, I wish I could get sleep." I totally understand that. Trust me, it's a season. We're going to get through this. [00:21:36] But overall, if you can get more rest, I think it's going to be helpful. And this principle helps you actually sleep better. If you don't believe me, try it out for five days. 
 
Laura Dugger: More patrons have joined the club recently, and we are so grateful. When you pledge five dollars per month to support The Savvy Sauce through Patreon, you're going to automatically unlock 12 additional incredible episodes and five downloadable scripture cards. And these goodies just keep appearing each month. 
 
If you join before November 1st, we have an extra special surprise for you. We hope you consider joining today. Visit thesavvysauce.com, click on our "patron" tab, and then click "Join patron here". We appreciate your support. 
 
What is something you're learning right now? 
 
Jeff Henderson: One of the things we're learning right now, we're in the early stages of empty nesting. What is that like? I mean, don't tell my kids this, but we're loving this. And it's great because we need to have a little bit more extra time. [00:22:35] 
 
But we're also learning how to leverage the time when Jesse comes home from college to make sure... How do we go? We went from a family of four to a family of three when Jesse went to college. So how do we parent Cole a little bit differently? And now he's driving now. So we're trying to figure all that out. So we're learning the role of empty nesting and we're enjoying it. But we also love when the family gets back together. 
 
The other thing I'm learning here at Gwinnett Church is we are about to open up a second location. So I'm going to be lead pastor over both locations for a season. So what I've had to ask myself is what do I need to stop doing in order to be able to take on two campuses? Because I've got to grow and be a better leader. But to do that, I'm going to have to stop doing some things and delegate some things to other leaders around here. So trying to figure out that list of what do I need to stop doing in order to maximize and leverage this new season for me? [00:23:36] 
 
Then the other thing I'm trying to do, Laura, is just trying to keep up pace with technology. Actually, my daughter is teaching me to be better in terms of Instagram design, in terms of photographs. The other thing I love about this is just spending some time with my daughter. And she's training me. I think she's loving that. 
 
So I'm trying to stay up to speed with technology, which I would concur with everyone that that's an impossible goal. So I want to have one thing that I'm doing that will help me learn. So we downloaded an Instagram app and she's helping me kind of get a little bit better, a lot better about photo design on Instagram. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. I know that you often bring up thought-provoking questions. So what are a few questions that listeners can start asking themselves today to take a step toward their own growth? 
 
Jeff Henderson: I would take the two questions we started with, we put it in kind of an organizational or business or church context. What do you want to be known for? What are you known for? I would take those two questions and I would apply them to you personally. What do you want to be known for and what are you known for? [00:24:41] 
 
Those are two powerful questions. They're challenging questions. We've talked about Truett Cathy, Truett's life versus a good name is better than great riches. So he wanted to make sure that he had a good name. I think that's great. We have a brand. It's called You. I know we don't like to think of ourselves as a brand, but we all have a personal brand. Okay? And we also carry an emotional climate around with us. 
 
I did a sermon series not too long ago at our church called Climate Change. Basically what I meant by that is you have a climate and that climate follows you into the conference room, that climate follows you into the dinner table, that climate follows you into your relationships. But many times we don't know what the climate is. 
 
Our creative team created this video where people walked into a meeting, Laura, and they all had these weather symbols on top of their heads. There was one person that walked in that, had a storm cloud over their head, and everybody knew to stay away from that person because she wasn't having a great day that day. [00:25:42] 
 
What that illustrated, though, is that everyone around the table knew to stay away from that person, but her she wasn't aware of what her storm cloud, her climate was communicating to everyone in the room. That leads me to another question, which is this one. It's a very challenging question. But I would encourage everyone to ask three people in your life this question. And that is: what's it like to be on the other side of me? What's it like to be on the other side of me? 
 
The reality for you and me, Laura, and all of our listeners, we don't know what it's like to be on the other side of us because we've never been there. And when you ask that question, you're going to get three pieces of information. The first piece of information, you're going to get some encouraging information about you. The second is you're going to get some surprising information about you. And the third is you're going to get your feelings hurt. As a result of this, it's going to take some courage for you and me to ask that question. 
 
But here's what happens. And this is so important to understand. [00:26:43] If we don't have the courage to ask that question, it doesn't mean the information goes away. It's still there. We just don't have the courage to access the information. And in that moment, what happens is, is a person puts a lid on top of his or her potential. Because many times it's not the smart, hard skills, if you will, the intelligence, the SAT scores that hold us back. It's really the emotional intelligence, the soft skills or the lack thereof that is the biggest thing that holds people back. I've seen that in the business world. I've seen that in the nonprofit world.
 
Soft skills rule the day. And those that have soft skills, emotional intelligence combined with real talent will succeed every single time over those who have very smart technical skills, but have a lack of emotional awareness of how they are coming across. So what's it like to be on the other side of me? And then those two questions, what do you want to be known for and what are you known for? You apply those to you personally, that's going to really help you, I think, take steps toward the person you want to be. [00:27:52] 
 
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible. I wonder if listeners are feeling the same way I am. It just feels like a power mentoring session right now. So if they want to go one step further, where can listeners now find your book or connect with you online? 
 
Jeff Henderson: I would love for them to go to jeffhenderson.com or the For company, forcompany.com. Both of those provide some free resources. But at jeffhenderson.com, you'll find a variety of free resources that are there for you just to get better, to improve, to kind of close the gap between those two questions. 
 
Then they can just follow me on Instagram at @jeffhenderson. Anything that they can do to kind of spread the word on the book, I would be very, very appreciative of.
 
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes. Jeff, you may remember from last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight, or discernment. So we would all love to hear what is your savvy sauce? [00:28:55] 
 
Jeff Henderson: Again, Laura, I told you this last time. This is such a great question. It's such a hard question because I hate to kind of boil it down to just one. But I'll go back to another thing my mentor, Steve Polk, told me. And he said, Jeff, leave things better than you found them. Leave things better than you found them. So you're here for a season and in every area of your life. So when you leave, whatever it is, leave things better. 
 
Another way to put this is one of my life goals is to be found faithful. Jesus said, when I come back, am I going to find faith? And so if Jesus were to come back today, I would want Him to look at my life and say, Oh, wow, I found you faithful. That's awesome. But to do that, you have to leave things better than you found them. 
 
So I wanted to leave Chick-fil-A better than I found it. I wanted to leave Buckhead Church better than I found it. And when I eventually leave Gwinnett Church, I want to leave Gwinnett Church better than I found it. And so having that principle and having a mindset of it's not about me, but it's about me being here to improve the organization and move it forward. [00:30:03] What did I do today to leave things better than when I found it? So that was something Steve Polk spoke into my life that I've never really forgotten. And goodness, that's been over three years ago.
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. It's just so inspiring just listening to you speak, for all of us to find a mentor. It sound like you've learned so much through your mentors. Thank you for mentoring all of us today. It's just been such a treasure time to get to stay under your teaching and your wisdom. I'm so excited for everybody to get their hand on this resource. So thanks for joining us today, Jeff.
 
Jeff Henderson: Laura, thanks for having me back for a second time. I look forward to doing this again sometime in the future. Thanks so much. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:31:05] 
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:32:07] 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:33:05] 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
 

76 Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

76. Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Proverbs 13:12 (NIV) “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.”
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist with special training in sex education from a Christian perspective. She is also a wife and a lover of coffee, good books and travel. She is currently involved in a project with Dr. Rosenau, author of Celebration of Sex, to teach teens how to enjoy their friendships and dating relationships while holding to Christian convictions. Additionally, she serves on the advisory board at Millennials for Marriage- a group that aims to encourage millennials to be equipped for marriage. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese’s Website
The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
Torn Asunder by David M. Carder & Duncan Jaenicke
John Gottman’s website
 
Previous Episodes on The Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord: 
Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life
Deep Dive into the Enneagram
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Cookery Inc
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:18]
 
Laura Dugger: If you love to cook or know someone who does, then you should check out The Cookery, Inc. in Morton. Whether you're new to the culinary world or a pro just looking for some modern tips, they have the class for you. All their classes are taught by trained chefs and all classes finish with a gourmet meal. Visit them today at thecookeryinc.com. That's thecookeryinc.com. 
 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
 
Today I am thrilled to welcome back Dr. Jessica McCleese. She is a wife, licensed psychologist, certified sex therapist, and certified sexual educator. We are going to talk about what to do in seasons when marriage is not going well, such as ongoing high conflict, infidelity, and infertility. These are heavy topics, yet I hope that you feel supported if you're facing this right now in your marriage. [00:01:27] 
 
Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome back, Dr. McCleese. 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Thanks so much for having me again. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, we're thrilled that you could join us again. For those who missed our previous episode, would you mind telling us more about yourself? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am a licensed psychologist in the state of Virginia and I'm also a certified sex therapist. All that came about really I have a history of my own personal stories of sexual trauma and molestation and things like that. And those things really drove me to trying to seek a little bit of help. 
 
What's funny is I actually had a roommate in college. We lived together for a year and I probably, if you took that whole year and all of the time we spoke, it probably didn't even equal more than an hour and a half, which is funny because I'm quite talkative now and I do it for a living. But that year that we had together, I probably didn't speak to her more than an hour and a half total. 
 
She at one point had told me that I needed to get some counseling because clearly I had some issues. And I think she said it in a really nice and loving way. [00:02:27] But I had told her, "If you set it up, I'll go." And in my mind, I kind of thought she wouldn't care enough to set it up. So I thought I was kind of getting out of having to go. But she did set it up that day, came home, handed me a piece of paper, and said, "Well, here's your first appointment." 
 
I went into that session, and I don't know what happened in the session. I guess it was God giving wisdom to my counselor. But within I don't know, maybe 10 minutes, it seemed like almost immediate, he asked me, or he told me, I think, "You've been sexually abused, haven't you?" And that's what started my process of healing and eventually me changing my degree plan. So I had started out going into youth ministry, and that changed my degree plan eventually to go into counseling when I realized how helpful it was. 
 
So quite a journey there. But because of my own abuse in the past and because of just what I saw in family and friendship relationships, I really got a heart for marriage, and I really got a heart for wanting to help people in their sexual lives so that they can learn to be sexually whole. 
 
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for the vulnerability and sharing the true backstory. As a therapist, where do you begin when a couple does come in to see you and they've been experiencing a long season of high conflict? [00:03:35] 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I do work with a lot of couples. Probably about 80% of my caseload are couples that are coming in and most of the time it's high conflict. The reason I say most of the time is because for most couples, they actually don't seek any kind of counseling or therapy help until they've been trying for up to about five years and finding that whatever they're putting into place just simply isn't working. 
 
Most of the people that come to see me are still committed to one another, but they're at a place where they actually don't feel like their marriage can be saved because they've tried for so long and they haven't seen any results. 
 
One of the first things I do is I try to get a good history of the relationship. So I want to know how long a couple has dated, why they originally got together to begin with, what attracted them to one another. I like to look at ups and downs of their relationship. I'm basically getting a bird's-eye view of their entire history together. 
 
So we'll talk about ups and downs, what have been the highlights, what have been the really painful places for you guys. And then we learn a little bit about conflict resolution together. So I'll ask them, what does it look like when you guys argue? Who takes the lead in asking for forgiveness or reconciliation? [00:04:41] 
 
So I'm looking for behavioral patterns that the couple has with one another. And so we'll look through those different stages of the relationship and see when it's been probably at the easiest and when it's been at the hardest. Look for anything that they can hold onto as positives also during the relationship. 
 
So if a couple's going to stay together, like I said, it could be up to five years before they come in to seek professional counseling, and so if they've stayed together through high conflict, they obviously want to stay together. There's something that says we should continue this, even if it's really hard. So we look for those positive things of what's happening. 
 
For some couples, it's simply that we parent well together, and that's all that they can offer me. For some couples, it might be, well, we both love Jesus, and He says you should stay together, so we're trying. And sometimes that's all they have is their faith background to stand on. For some couples it's "we get along well when we're alone, but if other people around, for some reason, the tension rises, and we just can't seem to stand each other." 
 
So it just really depends. But we look for the positives that each person has. For some couples, I've had couples that have a lot of fun together, but they can't do anything serious. [00:05:44] So making decisions or having hard conversations doesn't work for them, but generally speaking, they enjoy one another. Some couples are heavily committed to one another but they actually don't enjoy each other at all. 
 
And so it really depends on the starting place for each couple which can be different from one couple to the next. But we look for positives mainly and that's what helps us kind of hold on to something in the midst of figuring out how to problem-solve as well. So I have several techniques that I walk couples through once I see what their actual difficulty is that they're bringing to this session. 
 
Laura Dugger: Let's go further into some of those techniques then. If one of those couples comes in to see you and they want to start moving in the right direction, how do you help them get on the right track? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am actually becoming a really big fan of something called the Enneagram. You can actually take a test online to see what your Enneagram type is. And it's a cheap test. It's only 12 bucks. So that's a really great place to start for a couple. [00:06:43] 
 
This particular measure, it gives you somewhere around 10 pages of single-spaced text telling you about your personality. Someone asked me recently if it was similar to the Myers-Briggs, and I would say not really. Like, it does give you a type like the Myers-Briggs does, but it's got much more information that it's giving you. 
 
What's unique about the Enneagram is it looks kind of at how our personalities affect us as far as what I would call our tendency to live in sin. We're all sinners, and so we have these things that we bring to our relationships because of our imperfections and because of our sin nature. The Enneagram kind of gives us a chance to look at what are those places that hold you the deepest and the darkest? What are those places where you're most prone to sin? 
 
So, for instance, anger is a sin. Well, at least when we act in anger. Feeling anger is not a sin. But if we're yelling at one another and name-calling, that would be a sin. There are things like pride that can be very sinful for people. There can be arrogance. Things like that. [00:07:42] So what it does is it kind of looks at what your human nature brings to the equation. 
 
And oftentimes when couples are in high conflict, it's because they're each bringing these things to the relationship that cause tension. And they don't need to, but they're bringing things that directly feel like an attack to their spouse. So what we try to look at is what those things are that feels like you're being attacked. 
 
So often couples will tell you, no, you know, I don't think that my spouse is just out to get me or wants to make my life miserable. But in the way they describe conflict, it sounds like that's exactly what they feel. So there's this dissonance that rests within each individual in the couple where they say, no, I know you're not out to get me, but by golly, it feels like you're out to get me and you're always against me and you're not a team player. 
 
So what we try to do is remove those things by figuring out what is that underlying personality feature in you that causes tension in your spouse. Once we learn those things, we can prayerfully start getting rid of some of those more negative features of ourselves. Because we all have it. We're born into sin and we live with a brokenness. [00:08:43] 
 
So we have to constantly let Christ work in us. And in the midst of Him working in us, we have to kind of understand what our tendencies are that most often holds me captive. Because until you can figure that out and let Christ start working on you, you're not going to have a successful relationship. So that's a big piece, is the Enneagram. 
 
Then I'm really big on personal responsibility. So any kind of fight or any kind of conflict that's happening in a couple, we each have our own personal responsibility that we're bringing to that relationship. So my couples that I work with learn quickly that as we're doing problem-solving, I keep going back to, Now hold on, what can you do differently? Not what you want your spouse to do differently. What can you do differently to make this a better situation? 
 
So that's a big part of what my work is, is constantly helping people look at what they personally need to resolve in their own lives to have a stronger relationship with their spouse. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. It's so empowering to each person because then they have a sense of control because they can work on themselves when you can't control the other person. [00:09:46] I love that you also mentioned the Enneagram. If anybody's curious, do you mind sharing your number with us? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. So I'm a 5. If you want to know more about a 5, you can actually read a book called The Road Back to You, and it'll help you. But I'm going to give you just kind of a little bit of an understanding of what that means. 
 
One of the things that's big for me is I am a listener, which can be good. I mean, it helps me in the world of therapy. But also one of the more negative sides of that is it means it's hard for me to express my own needs at times because I'd rather just sit back and listen. 
 
So, of course, that can cause an issue because it can cause resentment if I'm not careful about it because I want to know why people aren't asking what I need or I'm going to want to know why people aren't taking care of what I would consider the things that anybody should know that are important to me. So that can be an issue where it kind of, you know, can hurt me. So that's definitely a thing. 
 
Probably one of the bigger ugly things is that I have a tendency to not want to involve others in my life to help take care of me. [00:10:46] That's something I've had to learn, especially in times of crisis, that I need other people, that I don't need to retreat and just try to do it all on my own. 
 
So that's one of the things about a five also is we really think that we can just kind of do our own thing and not involve others. But the ugly side of that is we can think that of others also. We think others can do their own thing and take care of themselves. And so there's a push sometimes probably in the world of counseling where I might push people a little harder than I should have. "You can do this." 
 
I try to make it always sound really encouraging, but that would be an area of weakness where I have to watch for it and make sure I'm not trying to push too hard for people, but really allowing them to work in their strength as well. 
 
So this is one of the reasons why the Enneagram is helpful, because I can look at my own faults and learn to work on those with Christ's help to make them more of a strength, which, of course, sounds like a good interview question, right? So here's my weakness, but this is how I make it a strength. But that's really what the Enneagram is supposed to do, is to help you get to that place. 
 
I like to sit back and watch people instead of be involved with people. [00:11:46] And so that obviously can be an issue. Something I had to learn early on in my marriage, how not to let that interfere with our relationship and our coming together. So it's things like that why I think the Enneagram is important. 
 
There's way more features. Those are just a few I just threw out. But that's part of why I think it's helpful for couples to know their type, because they can see where they're hurting one another. But the idea behind that also is not to sit in this place of, well, I'm a five, so it's just who I am. But instead to say, Okay, I know this is a weakness of mine, and I know this is something that can impact us negatively. So since that's the case, I need to come a little closer and work on those things so that I can have a relationship with you."
 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for sharing. 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. 
 
Laura Dugger: What is some common homework that you suggest for your clients as they do pursue healthy conflict resolution? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: I always recommend a date night once a week. That's just an absolute necessity. I have plenty of couples that tell me that they don't have time for date night. But I constantly say, We got to do that. We got to find time together. [00:12:50] 
 
And when you're doing date night, you're not allowed to have any arguments. If something comes up you write it down on a piece of paper and you come back to that in another moment that we call "couch time". I'm going to explain that in a minute. But date night is just for date night.
 
So often when we're in conflict, we don't want to have our moments of letting those things go and that's part of how it builds, but we really need those moments just to connect as friends and be kind of lovers. That doesn't necessarily mean sex, but just being intimately connected with one another. So that's one part is date night where no conflict is allowed. 
 
Then what I call "couch time" is where you sit down on the couch and you take maybe 20 minutes and you each note some things that need to be worked on in the relationship. and you come up with a way to work on it. So your conflict resolution is actually limited to certain times that you put together as this is when we're going to work on things. 
 
Now, every couple has conflict from time to time, and as you learn to resolve it, you don't necessarily have to say, Okay, Thursday at five, we're going to have our conflict resolution session. You can resolve it then. But for couples that are in high conflict, I do say, let's hold all conflict aside and we address it at one time during the week. [00:13:59] And we limit that time. Because the idea is to not get you so engulfed in that that you can't live your life anymore. 
 
Sometimes that means the only time we're going to address conflict is in the office for a few weeks until you guys gain some skills where you can do that on your own. So sometimes couples... that's what I'll tell them is let's just do the conflict resolution here in the office so that you guys will feel more comfortable with this piece. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's such a practical application. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
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The Cookery teaches both savory and baking classes, which ensures a wide range of topics that many can enjoy. They're now offering team tickets for most of their classes. The Cookery definitely has something for everybody. [00:14:59] 
 
My husband and I did a date night there that was focused on Italy, where we learned how to make pasta and many other delicious foods from scratch. It was one of our most memorable date nights. And this winter, I plan to take our oldest daughter there for her sixth birthday. 
 
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Please think to give The Cookery a call for any of your food and catering needs. They know that if you join them for a cooking class, you're going to love it and you will return again. Their classes are fun, unique, and also technique-driven, which is something unique to this area of central Illinois. So let The Cookery take your cooking skills to the next level. 
 
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Laura Dugger: What encouragement do you have for couples who have experienced infidelity? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Gosh, that's such a big one. I would say probably one of my favorite resources for couples that have experienced infidelity is a book called Torn Asunder. That would be probably one of my top things I would tell couples, Grab that book, start reading through it, because there's just a whole world of things that couples need to work through when infidelity has been in their relationship. That's a really excellent resource. 
 
One of the things that we need to do pretty quickly is... first of all, don't make big decisions in that first year. If you find out that your spouse has had an affair and you're thinking, Well, I don't know if I want to stay or not, I always tell couples, don't make a knee-jerk reaction here. So if you find out on a Friday night, my goodness, don't go to the attorney on Monday and start the divorce process. You need to give yourself time to actually really think about and process the situation. The knee-jerk reaction is oftentimes something that people want to jump into. [00:17:04] 
 
As you start that process, look at the book Torn Asunder, look at going to a Christian counselor. But the big thing is we want to take an entire assessment of your relationship. The same thing that I would do with couples when it's heavy conflict resolution time and we need to look through those things, we're going to do the same thing in an affair. 
 
We're going to look at, you know, what was your dating relationship like? What were the early years like? What has it been like since then? Highs and lows. And we're going to see what has happened in your relationship that caused you not to be safeguarded. 
 
There's never been a couple get married and think, "Hey, you know, in a couple of years, I guess I'll have an affair. We'll work through that." It's just not expected when you get married. So instead, we have to look at what kind of came against you, what boundaries weren't in place that need to be in place. 
 
Most couples never think we need to sit down and have a discussion about what we can and can't do as a couple. Most couples never think about how do we safeguard ourselves from an affair because most people just don't expect that's going to happen in their relationship. [00:18:02] 
 
One of the things that couples have that have been through an affair that no other couple has is they realize how tender that can be and how much could come against them as a couple. And so they understand how to start setting boundaries. But really the best way to safeguard your relationship is to set those boundaries and figure out what feels comfortable and what doesn't and figure out how to have a healthy relationship long before anything comes against you where an affair has happened. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that point. Do you have any specific examples that come to mind of boundaries that your clients have put in place to help safeguard their own marriages? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Yeah. So you know what? Mike Pence, I don't know, gosh, quite some time ago, but there is an article out about him and some boundaries he had put in place. And I saw a lot of people talking about how weak he must be to put those boundaries up. They gave him all kinds of ugly names. But the reality is he and his wife had set up some pretty great boundaries. 
 
Some of the boundaries that I think are helpful is just to really safeguard any relationships where you're talking to the opposite sex more often than you need to. [00:19:05] I know that's really ambiguous, but... let me put it this way. Let me give you some that me and my husband have, and maybe that'll help. 
 
There's never been an affair in our history, but we just know we want to safeguard ourselves. And so some of the things we do is I'm not alone with another male, not to eat dinner, not to go out for coffee. Now, I've done some of that for marketing purposes, but when I do, I ask my husband first, I tell him where we're going to be, and we go out for just one hour to talk about how to pass business to one another, okay? And then I tell my husband about that. 
 
So there are times when I do that from a business standpoint, and I know there are other people that have business relationships. Like attorneys, for instance, they're going to meet with people alone because that's what you do as an attorney. You don't broadcast your meetings. There are people in therapy offices like myself. I mean, I meet with the door closed in a therapy office. So I know that sometimes work interferes with that kind of a relationship. But you want to put into place where you're not spending time alone with somebody. 
 
We think sometimes that if my relationship is good, I don't have to worry necessarily about a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. [00:20:05] But the truth is attraction starts because we spend a lot of time together. So attraction starts because we pass each other often and we start talking more often. Attraction starts because we develop a relationship or I'm telling you about my life and you're telling me about yours. So what we want to do is just safeguard that. 
 
Then if you feel any attraction rising for somebody else... Again, that's part of our human nature. So if you feel attraction rising to somebody else to really have a sit down with a good close friend and maybe even your spouse to say, "Look, I'm finding myself attracted to this person. We need to not spend time with them." 
 
That could even be if my husband and I have friends that are a couple friends of ours, we would have to spend less time with them if either one of us had an attraction to them. Now, we probably wouldn't tell the other couple, right, because we're not trying to start anything up. But really that honesty with one another of, hey, I'm human, I can be weak in my humanity, and there are times when I might feel attractions for other people. 
 
Because feeling an attraction is not a sin at all. [00:21:04] That's just part of our human nature. That's how God created us, to notice one another. But acting on any attraction is a sin. I mean, simple actions, like just thinking about what it would be like to be with them, and not even a romantic sense, but what would it be like for my husband to be so and so instead of the one I have. That is a sinful interaction, because you're allowing yourself to start fantasizing about a relationship you're not supposed to have. 
 
Laura Dugger: What about the couple that is walking through something like this? We would love to offer hope and encouragement to the couple listening right now that's in the midst of this struggle. So do you have any stories or examples of couples who are better off after working through this in their own marriage? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Oh goodness, yes. So what's interesting is if you survey couples, like if you survey a thousand couples, couples that have worked through an affair and gotten to the other side are going to report higher levels of happiness than couples that have never been through an affair.
 
John Gottman has talked about this too. He kind of laughs and says but this is no reason to have an affair. [00:22:05] And it's true. But what happens with couples that have been through an affair is they have to face reality that the relationship is really tender and that it could be broken. 
 
And in that time of facing reality, they start looking at their entire history of where have we hurt one another? Where have our weaknesses been? Where have I not asked for forgiveness for places I've done wrong to you? Where do I need reconciliation? What boundaries do I need to feel safe? 
 
There's a lot of stuff they work on where all of a sudden they're in a place where they can say, you know what, I feel completely safe with you because I know that you're going to do me right. I know that I can come to you and tell you when I have an issue or a problem. So they're at a place that a lot of couples sadly never get because many couples never realize the deep need for those conversations.
 
So, couples that are working through an affair or think, Gosh, I don't know if my relationship can be healed because we had an affair, my heart's cry is that those couples would seek out Christian counseling and start working through that process. Because the truth is couples that have been through an affair and will seek recovery, they really do well if they'll go through that process. [00:23:09] 
 
Laura Dugger: That is really encouraging. You guys, you seriously do not want to miss out on our patron guest from September, Tracey LeGrand. She's a returning guest, but this episode is available to paying patrons only. She teaches us more about the science of female orgasm, shares how couples can enjoy a more pleasure-filled sex life, and she brings some scripture to life in a new way I've never considered. 
 
Please don't miss out. Pledge $5 today and receive this episode and many others when you visit thesavvysauce.com and click on our Patreon tab, then click "Join Patreon here". If you join before November 1st, you're going to receive an extra surprise. We know you're gonna love it. 
 
Another difficult part of marriage can come in when couples experience infertility. What ways have you witnessed this affecting a marriage? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: That's actually an area that my husband and I struggled with as well. I write about that on my blog. There's a lot of areas where that can impact the marriage pretty negatively. [00:24:12] So couples that experience infertility, if they're trying really hard to time intercourse and make sure that they can get pregnant, one of the big struggles they can have is all of a sudden any kind of sexual interaction feels a little forced. 
 
It feels like, well, you've got to wait until we're fertile, so let's not have sex tonight, even though we both want to. Then it might be the next night, "Hey, I know we're both really tired, but we got to do this." So it becomes almost a checklist task. That's one of the ways that it can really hurt couples.
 
Another is just the shared grief. When we're grieving in our relationships because something horrible has happened in our lives, we just have a hard time connecting. So some couples will find that those areas of grief help them to connect in a greater way than they ever have before. But sometimes it actually becomes kind of a wedge. And when it becomes a wedge within the couple where they each struggle to connect or to kind of let each other in emotionally, then you're going to see more difficulties in the relationship. 
 
For infertility, you're kind of going through the grieving process every month. And especially if for some reason a woman's period is a little late, [00:25:16] and then she starts, there can be that grief of "I really thought that this was the month. I really thought we were going to make this big announcement. This is horribly depressing."
 
And for men, it can feel that way too. That constant "I'm watching my wife here go through these horrible struggles. I'm going through them myself. How can I be the protector and take care of her when I can't even take care of my own emotional side? So it just kind of becomes a lot of upheaval and emotional discomfort during those times.
 
Those are the two ways I would say. So difficulty with the intimacy and difficulty because of the emotions that can impact a couple pretty negatively.
 
Laura Dugger:  And as you talk about coming together in grief, what if both of those spouses process their grief very differently? Let's just say one doesn't like to talk about it and one needs to verbally process, how would you coach them? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: In those cases, I would say it's a good time to really hang on to your same-sex friendships. For instance, I'm definitely more verbal than my husband. Now, that doesn't mean that he doesn't talk to me. He does. [00:26:19] But if we look at how many words we each need, I need far more than he does. So we process a little differently. He's more internal. I'm probably a little more external in my need for processing. 
 
So some of the ways for couples, if they're doing that, or if they have that kind of a connection where one is more verbal and one is more "I need time to myself," I would encourage them, for the one that's more verbal, to really have a good set of close same-sex friends where you can process a lot of those emotions and what's going on so that when you go to your spouse, you have more of like the condensed Reader's Digest version of maybe two to three sentences instead of two hours of emoting.
 
That's not wrong to do with your friends, right? So that's a good thing. And it's not wrong with your spouse to be in a place where you can connect with them more fully because you're on kind of a same level playing field there. 
 
Then for the person who likes to process more internally, even though it's not maybe your preferred way of doing things, I would say for that person to make sure that you're pushing yourself to talk about what's going on, even if that means that you need to write it out at first, or even if you need to sit for an hour and think, okay, what are my big emotions for this particular situation, and then bring that to your spouse. [00:27:31] 
 
Because really both of you do need to still connect emotionally and connect heart-to-heart by talking to one another. But when you both just do it differently, it is okay to seek some outside friendships before having those conversations with your spouse. 
 
Laura Dugger: This is so helpful. While we're on this topic, it's unique because it can also affect friendship. So what helpful tips do you have for people on both sides of this equation, both the couple facing infertility and they're friends of that couple, especially if they have children? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: My husband and I have missed a few kids' birthday parties because we've had times, you know, where we just couldn't do it. We couldn't hang out with friends, even though we love our friends, because it was incredibly painful. 
 
So I would say if you're going through infertility, and really my husband and I now are at a place where we're beyond the really deep difficulties of it, so we're at the place we can go to the kids' birthday parties, we can celebrate with our friends. We're good there. There's still a tenderness where we would like to have our own biological children one day, and then probably adoption is actually what we'll do. [00:28:34] 
 
But even with that, we've crossed the bridge where we can actually connect more. But in those places where we couldn't, and what I believe is helpful for other couples, is to just really know where you're at. And so if you're at a place where you just can't connect right now to someone because they have kids running around and it's really heavy for you, like especially if you're at that place where you thought it was happening this month and then you realize it's not, don't go to the birthday party. It's okay. Skip it out. 
 
Hopefully, your friends are in a place where they can understand, where you can let them know, Hey, I love you and I want to celebrate with you, but today is a hard day and I need some space. My hope would be that you'd be able to let your friends know that and they'd be able to sit with you in that place and be okay with it. But I would say, know yourself, first of all. Know where your emotions are. 
 
Then for friends of people that are going through infertility, I have heard everything from, God opens and closes the womb, so let's pray, as if, you know, my husband and I had never thought to pray about it. I've heard people give us advice about how often we need to have sex, which is really weird to tell your friends and start asking about those things. People don't typically ask about frequency in your marriage. So I would say stay away from those questions. [00:29:39] 
 
I've heard a lot of people talk about, Hey, if you just read this book, or I have a friend that that happened to, and then they adopted and then they got pregnant. So people try to offer all this advice when in reality, if you're a friend of somebody who's having infertility issues, I would encourage you just sit with them. Just sit with them and say, Man, you're right, this is hard. Gosh, I hate that you're going through this. Can I pray for you? Can I hug on you? Like I would say, sit in that place where you can just be with your friend and let them grieve. 
 
It's just not fun to be sitting in grief and then people give you all their problem-solving ways of how one day it might be better Or I've had people pray and say, "Oh, no, I know it's gonna happen. God has shown me. "Well, the reality is sometimes it doesn't happen for people. Sometimes people never have kids. And that's okay. They can still have a very good life without having their own children. But in the midst of that they just need to know that they're loved and they're cared for and that even if that pain exists, they can still have a good life. So if you're in the place where you're trying to help your friends, what I would say is just love on them, be okay sitting in their grief with them. [00:30:43] 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, you've just been so incredibly helpful today. There's so much more that we could cover on all of these topics. But if listeners do want to connect with you further, whether that's scheduling an appointment or reading your blog, where can they find you? 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. Sure. You can go to BeFullyWell.com, and that is B like the word, B-E. So BeFullyWell.com, and you can find all of my information on there. Social media sites are listed there, my articles are listed there, and even contact information is listed at the top and the bottom of the page where you can connect right away with me. 
 
Laura Dugger: We've covered quite a few deep and heavier topics, and I like to end with a playful question. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" means practical knowledge. So Dr. McCleese, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: My website kind of tells you "be fully well". I'm a big fan of looking at the entire system. So even if you were to come to counseling with me because you have conflict in your relationship, I'm gonna want to know from a physical standpoint if you're taking care of yourself, I'm gonna want to know emotionally speaking if you're giving yourself time to care for your soul. And spiritually, I'm gonna wonder how you're doing. So I don't limit it just to the relationship. [00:32:00] 
 
So I would say look at all four areas of your life. So physical, that's diet and exercise, right? So diet and exercise, mood-wise, that's the place emotionally, how am I functioning? Relationally, how do I look at my relationships with others? Not just with your spouse, but with others, how do I function? And then spiritually, Are there things that I used to enjoy doing with God that I don't do anymore? So have I broken away from some of my spiritual roots?
 
We want to look at each of those areas and see which one is the lowest functioning right now, which one needs the most care? Then I would say hit that one for a little while, even if it's just a week or two where you really look at what can I do differently in this area. So we'll just go with spirituality. So maybe you know, I am just not quite where I want to be spiritually speaking, then I would say take a couple of weeks and really figure out how can I start making sure I'm doing a devotional in the morning. 
 
What day can I put aside where maybe I have an hour during that day where I can really just focus on loving God and maybe getting back to the basics of some of my scripture reading, or spending some time in prayer, or even just listening to some worship music? Then you would do that with each area of your life and see what's the one that I need to work on this week, and then what's one thing I can do to work on that. So not all at once, that's way overwhelming, but just one piece of that, what should I do this week? [00:33:18] 
 
Laura Dugger: You articulate things so well, and you've just given us extremely practical tips to apply today. Thank you so much for sharing all of your help and hope for everyone listening today. 
 
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure thing. Thank you for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:34:18] 
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:22] 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:22] 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

75 Responding to God’s Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange

*DISCLAIMER* There is a brief part of this message that is not intended for little ears.
 
75. Responding to God’s Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange
 
**Transcription Below**
 
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:15-16‬ ‭(AMP‬‬) “Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.”
 
Elizabeth Pehrson wants to live in a world where her children pick up after themselves without being asked, a short order cook shows up every night to make dinner and laundry folds itself. As a mom of eight children - ages 19,18,17,15,14,13,11 and 8, she thrives on coffee and chaos and she is energized by people. She is married to her best friend, David, also known as the most patient man in the world!  She loves investing in women.  When she is not taking care of her small army, her flock of chickens and her two dogs, you can find her fishing on a lake. Elizabeth is founder of The Exchange, which is a monthly gathering that seeks to inspire women to live on purpose and with intention.  You can reach her at empehrson@gmail.com. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
The Best Yes by Lysa TerKeurst
Frientimacy by Shasta Nelson
Draw the Circle: 40 Day Devotional by Mark Batterson
Ask It by Andy Stanley
The Exchange Website 
 
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Previous episodes with Dr. Michael Sytsma:
10 Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview
Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Do you have a teething baby? Our sponsor today can help. Chew Beads is the original teething jewelry brand for all your baby's teething needs and beyond. Mommy chic and baby safe. Visit them at ChewBeads.com. 
 
Have you been looking for creative ways to invest in your relationship with your spouse and with your family? You can do this from your home with zero preparation with Night In Boxes. For more information, visit nightinboxes.com. 
 
I just want to let you know that there's a portion of this message that contains topics that are not suitable for little ears. Please use discretion when you listen. 
 
Welcome back to part two with Elizabeth Pehrson, who is a loving wife to David, devoted mother to eight kids, and founder of The Exchange in Atlanta, Georgia. And now, we're going to pick up where we left off from our conversation yesterday. [00:01:20] 
 
Here's our chat. 
 
You've already mentioned you had plenty on your plate, but you still sense this stirring from God that there was something else He was calling you to do. You didn't know what it was at first. So will you just take us back through that journey? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. About five years ago, I felt that God was asking something of me, that He wanted me to do something. And I just didn't know what it was. So I literally taped the word IT, you know, I-T to my closet wall, and I started praying for it. 
 
I prayed for almost a year and a half. And after about that time, God showed me what it was. I will never forget, I was scrolling Facebook in the carpool line, and I came across a women's event in Franklin, Tennessee, and literally the hair on the back of my neck stood up. And I was like, "I know what it is. That's it." 
 
Basically, I was to create a place for women to just come as you are, explore a different topic each month, we use that to enrich our minds, and then ultimately engage it in the next best step of our lives, whatever that might look like. [00:02:20] 
 
We called it The Exchange because my original hope and vision was that we could sit much like we are here, you know, exchanging ideas and talking and learning and growing from one another. Just like iron sharpens iron, we can sharpen each other. 
 
But really I wanted this to be for all women: Unchurched, churched, faith, no faith, married, single, divorced, kids, no kids, the whole gamut. All are welcome was kind of my mantra and my mindset. Many women, I believe, live their lives stuck on Groundhog's Day, doing the same thing day in and day out. You get up, you have your routine. Next thing you know, you're going to bed at night and you're thinking, what did I even do today? It's just like rote activities and tasks. I really see that it's so easy to do. I find myself doing it unless I'm intentional with my living and my days. 
 
But we just wanted to offer a place for women to come and get filled up. I am a big believer that you can't give what you don't have. So I wanted women to be filled up. I want them to feel loved and I want to inspire women to live on purpose and with intention. [00:03:18] 
 
So I created an event on Facebook. Just "I'm gonna throw it out there and see how many would come." This was in January 1st of 2015. And it was gonna be three weeks later for January 21st that night. And wouldn't you know we had lots of interest and excitement around it but that day we had an ice storm, a sleep storm and school was canceled and power was out. And I just thought, well, that's just like the devil. We're gonna have nobody show up. And I can't believe it." 
 
But we decided that we were gonna go on with the night because it was what we were going to do. And I'll never forget it. We were discussing Brené Brown's The Power of Vulnerability, her Ted Talk and my big hope, my big prayer was 30 women would show up even in the rain and it's late in the snow, and 125 women showed up that night.
 
Laura Dugger: Wow. They didn't care about the weather. 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: No, it just showed me how hungry women are just for that connection and for something more. 
 
Laura Dugger: So that was the beginning of 2015. So where is The Exchange now? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: We have really grown. The cool thing is that we've outgrown four locations and we are now meeting in Lanier Tech Conference Center, which is just right down the road from my house. [00:04:24] We meet the third Thursday of every month and then we take the summers off. There's usually around 150 to 200 women, some more, some less, just depends on the topic and the night, the time of season, year. 
 
But we have food and drinks and people come and just talk and mingle and get to know each other from about 7:00 to 7:30. Then we have an incredibly funny host. that opens up with games or giveaways or just something fun and entertaining. It usually has something to do with the topic or the content of the night. She's hysterical. 
 
And then after that, I either offer some cliff notes from other people's books or material like I did with the Brené Brown Power of Vulnerability TED Talk. I just call myself the cliff note speaker. I read a couple of books and then I just offer it and present it on that because I realize there's nothing new under the sun. Most women don't have the time or make the time to read, and so this is just a cliffnote version of whatever that book, that material is. 
 
Sometimes we'll bring in a special guest speaker to do a discussion-style interview, but not all the time. But sometimes. But it's super fun. 
 
Laura Dugger: Okay. So you said some women don't have the time to read all of these. You have a very full plate. How do you actually find the time to read these resources? [00:05:31] 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Well, as part of getting up early, I can't read at night, I fall asleep. People think, Oh, you just love to read. I really don't. I don't like to sit still. Like I'd love to listen to a book on audio, but then I can't take notes. And so it's been a learned thing for me and to really carve out that time and make the time, make it a priority. Because the truth of the matter is we can all spend time on what we want to spend time if we prioritize it right. 
 
Laura Dugger: And so you found it beneficial enough to overcome [inaudible 00:05:56]? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the pros always outweigh the cons. And anything worthwhile is going to be hard. You know, anything. Whether it's diet, exercise, a budget, like any of it, it's going to be hard, but it's so worthwhile. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors. 
 
Sponsor: I would like to thank today's sponsor, Chew Beads. Chew Beads is the original teething jewelry brand for all your baby's teething needs and beyond. Chew Beads offers innovative, chic, and safe teething items for ages 3 months and up. Check out their line of silicone feeding products that are microwave and dishwasher-safe, not to mention super cute. [00:06:36] 
 
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Shop online at ChewBeads.com and enter the code SAVVY at checkout to enjoy 15% off your order today. Again, that's ChewBeads.com and enter the code SAVVY at checkout and then you get 15% off your order today. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Sponsor: We want to say thank you to our sponsor, Night In Boxes. They do all the work and research fun activities and then ship you a box each month so that you can invest in your most meaningful relationships. Each Date Night In Box includes interactive activities with ambiance and a tasty treat to bring couples together in meaningful ways. [00:07:36] For families who order a Night In Box, You will also receive a box with interactive activities and a tasty treat all centered around life lessons. 
 
Night In Boxes hopes to bring children together with an influential adult in a creative, fun, and meaningful way. We first tried the Faith Family Box and our children were giddy when our box arrived in the mail. I loved having an intentional family night to look forward to that took no preparation from me. 
 
In addition to receiving a custom-curated experience each month, you will also become part of a community that allows for an experience to be enjoyed beyond the box. So gift your loved one with a subscription today. Visit nightinboxes.com. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Laura Dugger: Going back to The Exchange, how have you seen it cause life change in the other women?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: You know, if we didn't see any growth or any movement, we wouldn't keep doing what we're doing. But it's hard, too, at the same time, because in a large group like that, it's hard to engage with each woman that comes in the door. [00:08:40] Some come two or three times and don't come back, and some come all the time, but I don't know many of them. 
 
So it's hard because I only hear the stories of people that I either know or maybe somebody that emails me. It might be a stranger that emails me or a friend of a friend. But it's really hard to measure. For example, we did a topic on forgiveness and it was the neatest thing. We saw friendships restored. We were able to see marriages healed. 
 
We did one on the best yes, and we had women for the first time in their life hearing, you know, it's okay to say no. You don't have to say yes to everything. Or hey you know what, you always say no, but if this is your best yes, we want to encourage you to step outside your comfort zone and say yes. 
 
Women have gone back to work, some women have quit their jobs to be with their family because for that season it was their best yes. I don't ever give them their answers. I just say, Hey, whatever's the next best step for you to engage in your life.
 
We've had some women pursue their dreams. We did one on The Greatest Showman where we explored who are we from that song, This Is Me. It was really eye-opening to me because, believe it or not, most women don't know who they are. [00:09:44] And the exploration of who we are created to be is a win enough for me. It's so rewarding every time that one person comes up and just shares something that's really change their life. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and I'm sure that this is difficult to condense down, but can you think back to The Exchange, think about three examples of topics that you've covered, and then just share maybe one or two takeaways that we can be encouraged by from each of those topics that you've covered in the past? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: I would love to do that. If it's okay with you, I'll kind of do it almost like a mini exchange, just a glimpse of what we do. It's super interesting. Our two most attended events so far have been on friendship, adult friendship, and sex. You know, go figure on that one. 
 
But our least attended event, which I personally feel like had the most practical wisdom and content of all of our events, was one that we did and titled Ask It. Those are the three that I would like to touch on if that's okay with you. 
 
To go to the adult friendship one, you know, right off the bat, we all know that adult friendships are hard. It seems impossible to be friends with people who hurt us. [00:10:46] But the problem is there are no other kinds of people because we're all human. I think this is why so many people showed up that night. 
 
We explored Shasta Nelson's book, Frientimacy. Basically, frientimacy is a combination of friendship and intimacy. And she offers such great insight and a very fresh new perspective on friendship. She talks a lot about how women are lonely. And she said, many women don't want to admit that they're lonely because they feel like, oh my goodness, there's something wrong with me. 
 
She said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not it. Loneliness simply means that we have the capacity for more connection. And I love that definition because instantly everyone lets down their guard and go, okay, I'm normal. It's okay. Yes, I do have more capacity for connection. 
 
We learned and studied that night that meaningful friendships aren't found. We sometimes think that you fall into them or we stumble upon them, but really they're developed. We talked about the five circles of friendship, and I didn't even know there was such a thing, but it is so accurate. 
 
And so I wanted to quickly go over those five things because they're super helpful. She says there's five circles, five rings of friendship. The first ring is contact friends. [00:11:48] And you think about people that you're linked to by something in common, like the same church, same team, same school, the ones you tend to sit by at the ballpark on the bleachers, you come in contact with them quite a bit. 
 
The second group of friends, the second circle is common friends. You're linked by something in common, but you're intentional about getting together with them. Book club, small group, you know, a mom's group, you make time, you're very intentional to be with your common friends. 
 
Then the third circle of friendship is confirmed friends. We're close, but we don't see each other as often as we did. We're not in regular contact. These might be friends from high school or college that you can pick up right where you left off. You're still close, but you're confirmed friends, but you just don't see each other on a regular basis. 
 
Then the fourth circle is community friends. You have regular time together. You may have met at work, but now all of a sudden you're making time to get together with them outside of work, even though you no longer work there anymore. So those are community friends that you really spend and choose to spend a lot of time with. [00:12:45] 
 
Then the last one, it's the circle five, is committed friends. You're intimately involved with them. You know the details of their lives. You can call them at three in the morning. You can call them in a crisis. Those are your committed friends. 
 
And she says, we need friends in all of the areas. There's value in all of the circles. I'd really never thought about, you know, friendship in light of circles or in the way she described it, but it was so eye-opening in just to learn about friendships. It was like, it's okay to be a two friend. It's okay to be a five-friend with a smaller group of people. 
 
The last thing I wanted to share regarding this topic is that she says, Frientimacy is any relationship where both people feel seen, they feel safe, and the relationship is satisfying. And the way you get there over time is with positivity, consistency, and with vulnerability. And that's what makes for a meaningful friendship. It was great material. If you have not read her book, Frientimacy, I highly, highly recommend it. 
 
The second topic that I was going to talk about was let's talk about sex. [00:13:44] I grew up in a home where sex was not discussed at all. I grew up in a very strong Christian home and all I was told was I was not allowed to have it. And then I came home on my 12th birthday and there was a book on my bed that said, "Now that you're 12." And I had to read this book by myself. It was so awkward. There was no one to talk to or ask questions to or say, Hey, I don't understand this." I guess I was just supposed to have to figure it out on my own. 
 
Then 14 years later, when I got married as a 26-year-old virgin, I now was suddenly allowed to have sex, you know, but I still had not had anyone to ask any questions to, and I wasn't allowed to talk about it because I had a southern belle of a mother who told me that ladies don't talk about such things. 
 
So I decided that this was a very important, untalked-about topic. Media sells it, movies glamorize it, and most married people bash it. So we wanted to talk about it in a healthy, constructive way. And I am certainly no expert. So we brought in a local Christian sex therapist, Dr. Mike Sytsma. He is amazing. He's the only male that's ever been to The Exchange. [00:14:47] 
 
At first I was a little nervous because women were thinking, you know, Oh, he's going to come in there like the stereotypical male and he's going to state that men need sex and we'd always better be willing to give it to them. And he could not have been any more different. He is like this great big giant teddy bear, you know, with the most tender heart towards women. He was so wonderful. We actually have had him back four or five times. I mean, he has been so great in different venues. 
 
We gave women the opportunity to send in anonymous questions for him to answer, and we found that we really don't have a safe place to ask questions like this. Very few places are talking about it, and even fewer places offer a safe forum to get sound advice and counsel. You get the magazines that don't always necessarily say what we need to be hearing. So we felt like it was important to do that. 
 
It's hard to share some things from that night because of the sensitivity to some of the people's questions. So we opted not to have our notes from the crowd on the website and the Facebook page. But we had links to articles and some books that he suggested. [00:15:46] 
 
But I can tell you that night was so powerful. There were women crying. Women came up to me afterwards and just said, "I have never heard a man talk so lovingly about a woman before." It really broke my heart, actually. He just kept reiterating over and over and over again that we're to be cherished. He said, "We're worthy of love and affection in a way that is satisfying to both the husband and the wife. It's not like we just have to lie there and wait for our husbands to do whatever he wants. It's that we're worthy of that love and affection."
 
I remember him sharing the biggest turn on to our husbands is a turned-on wife. And that was like a light bulb that went off in so many heads. And you could hear the women gasp. And he said, No, it's true, women. He said, "You ladies, that's what men want, just to see you turned on." I've had countless women reach out to me saying that that night changed their marriage, it changed their sex life. 
 
One girl said, "It's the first time that I had the right tools and the right words to be able to have important, hard conversations." You know, they're difficult and they're awkward with your husband, but she said, "That was the first time I ever had the right words and knew how to approach him and what to say." [00:16:50] And she said, "It was life-changing."
 
Laura Dugger: I think that's incredible that you were courageous enough to talk about that topic. Here at the Savvy Sauce, maybe if this is your first time listening, I want to recommend just going back. Dr. Michael Sytsma has been a returning guest on the podcast. 
 
These topics specifically related to sexual intimacy have been our most popular episodes. And when one goes out, it airs around the world and people share it. So hopefully this can be a safe place where you can listen to these podcasts, maybe even listen together with your spouse, if you've never been to The Exchange or you haven't had this experience where you can put language to this and improve this area of marriage. But I just want to say thank you for covering that with The Exchange.
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. It is so worth the time for anyone that has any questions or concerns or angst surrounding sex in their marriage or whatever it might be. I'm so glad that he's been a guest because he is amazing. 
 
Laura Dugger: Our team would love to know, has The Savvy Sauce benefited you in any way? Our hope is that your life is enriched just a little bit more after listening and applying lessons from each episode. [00:17:58] If you have enjoyed the podcast, would you show us your support by pledging $5 per month to become a patron? You will receive some awesome perks and your contribution will help us offset the production costs for The Savvy Sauce so we can still make the majority of our content free to the public. 
 
We hope you consider partnering with us today. Just visit our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our Patreon tab. Thank you for your consideration. 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: The last one of the three that I wanted to talk about is one we entitled "Ask It". And this is one of my favorite topics because it's been the most impactful for me personally. Voltaire tells us that we can evaluate people by the questions they ask. 
 
Do we ask ourselves questions like, if I knew I had limited time to live, how would I change how am I currently living? What do I really love to do? Am I doing it? What is my greatest strength? What is my greatest weakness? What are my blind spots? When did I not speak up and I should have? Who am I? [00:18:59] 
 
To the depth we know ourselves is the degree and capacity we can know and give to others. And if we don't know who we really are, we can't really live out our purpose. So we explored Andy Stanley's book, Ask It. He calls it the question that will revolutionize how we make decisions. And he says, no one plans to mess up their life, but very few people plan not to. No one plans to end a marriage, to raise a codependent child, to fall into addiction, or get into credit card debt. But once it happens and we're there, we say, how in the world did I get here? 
 
And so when we're making a decision and we ask the question, is there anything wrong with it? That's not the question we should be asking, he argues. It should be, is it the wise thing for me to do? And he argues, we need a reference point. We need to ask the right questions. 
 
So the three questions he offers is, in light of my past experience, what's the wise thing for me to do? In light of my current circumstances, what is the wise thing for me to do? And in light of my future hopes and dreams, what is the wise thing for me to do? [00:20:01] 
 
Time basically equals our lives. You can get more money, you can get more friends, but you cannot get more time. So what is the best way for me to invest my time? Because if we're not careful, we'll miss the opportunities to spend time doing what matters most. 
 
That goes back to what we desire to do at The Exchange, to live on purpose and with intention. I know that was a lot, but that's basically my cliff notes to the cliff notes. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. And it's so exciting just to get a little taste or sampling of what you cover in these meetings. I'm so curious, what is your vision for The Exchange in the future? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: My vision for The Exchange is really just to keep doing what we're doing, which is to encourage women to live on purpose and with intention. You know, we found that when we become intentional in one area of our life, it often trickles into other areas.
 
For instance, if we're becoming more purposeful in our mental lives, we often become more aware of other areas that need attention, like maybe our physical lives. And then it often transfers into our emotional well-being or our spiritual lives. [00:21:01] 
 
Personally, I would love to see some type of digital expansion or podcast or something so that those that don't live here can still be a part of what we're about. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I just want to keep doing what we're called to do and do it well until I feel like God shows us otherwise. 
 
Laura Dugger: Do you have any encouragement for someone listening who's also feeling this call to do something right now, but they also don't know what their it is yet? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, yes. First of all, I just want to say you were not alone. I get it. I would say get still and find the time to be quiet. Just pray. Ask God to show you. He will do it. I'll tell you that. When I started on my journey, I went to the quietest place in my house, and that's my closet. And I woke up early and I would spend time in prayer, spend time in silence, spend time journaling. 
 
When God's in something, you have enthusiasm within you. And that simply just means God within. And it won't be forced, you know, it's going to flow. I would encourage you not to get caught up in the end goal, because I really believe the goal is not the goal, but the process is the goal. [00:22:02] 
 
One of the best books that I've ever read is Mark Batterson's Draw the Circle: The 40 Day Prayer Challenge. I devoured that book during that time, and it spoke to me unlike very few books have. I think I'm on maybe my sixth time reading it. And every time I would get to something new, I would strongly encourage anyone who was on this journey of following their calling to journal. Read that book and journal. 
 
The stones of remembrance that I have throughout this process, for me, have been some of the most faith-building reminders to me and my journey and my growth and really just of God's faithfulness on every step of the journey. It's been a sweet encouragement to me to show me that God's in this. I'm not alone and neither is she. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think you're a natural encourager. If somebody's listening and they want to find you online or learn more about The Exchange, where would you direct them? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: We have a website, it's called TheExchangeUS.org. We also have a Facebook page and an Instagram page, both called The Exchange. There you can find what we're about, inspirational quotes, my blog, recap from past events. [00:23:04] We have another section called Notes from the Crowd. It's all right there, so I hope they go check it out. 
 
Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to this in the show notes, as always, so it's easy to find. I have one final question for you today because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question, Elizabeth, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: I would want to tell every parent, especially those with little children, stay consistent with your discipline. Stay consistent with your words. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't throw something out there as a punishment if you're not going to follow through. 
 
You know, I think sometimes we get caught up and say things like, if you don't do such and such, we're all staying home from grandma's party tonight. Are we really going to all stay home from her party? Don't use a consequence that you can't follow through on or that you don't want to follow through on. Because our children need structure, grace-filled discipline, and they need us to be clear, concise, and consistent in our parenting and in our speech. [00:24:03] 
 
You know, it's kind of like the rules of sailing. My dad taught me this. You might feel confined if you have to go by the sailor's rules, and you might not think it's fair when he tells you you have to do this or that, and you might not even understand the rules. Like, why in the world do I have to do that? But if you do follow the rules, you ultimately end up with the freedom of the seas. 
 
I think in the same way, if you're diligently consistent in your younger years, your children will know that you mean what you say. And it's going to make your parenting teenager years so much easier. You'll have a lot less worrying, a lot more freedom, and enjoyment for both you and your children as they get older.
 
Laura Dugger: I love it, as I did all of your answers. Your energy is just so contagious. I really enjoyed this time together. So thanks for sharing with us. 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Thank you for coming and being in my home. I've loved it. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:25:10] 
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:26:12] 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:27:11] 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

74 Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson

74. Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Luke 5:15+16 “Yet the news about him spread all the more, so that crowds of people came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses. But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.”
 
Elizabeth Pehrson wants to live in a world where her children pick up after themselves without being asked, a short order cook shows up every night to make dinner and laundry folds itself. As a mom of eight children - ages 19,18,17,15,14,13,11 and 8, she thrives on coffee and chaos and she is energized by people. She is married to her best friend, David, also known as the most patient man in the world!  She loves investing in women.  When she is not taking care of her small army, her flock of chickens and her two dogs, you can find her fishing on a lake. Elizabeth is founder of The Exchange, which is a monthly gathering that seeks to inspire women to live on purpose and with intention.  You can reach her at empehrson@gmail.com. 
 
The Exchange Website 
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription Below**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
[00:00:18]
 
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[00:00:57] Elizabeth Pehrson is well known around Atlanta, Georgia for offering sound parenting advice based in biblical truth. I'm thrilled to have her join us today as our energetic guest. You will end this chat feeling empowered to apply savvy principles to your own family after she shares great tips for parents of toddlers to parents of adult children. Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Elizabeth. 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Thank you so much for having me. I cannot tell you how excited I am to be here. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, can you just start us off by sharing a bit about your family and your life right now?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. My husband, David and I met on a blind date about 20 years ago. I ran into a friend of mine that I hadn't seen since the fifth grade at a wedding, and she said, "I have got to introduce you to my brother-in-law." And I said, "Well, tell me about him." And she said, "Oh, he lives in Atlanta." And I said, "Oh, no, I'm a small-town girl. No way."
 
And then she said, "Oh, I mean, he's a dentist." And I said, "Absolutely not." Like strike two I said, "Have you ever been to a dentist who like... you know, I don't ever like to go to the dentist." And she's like, "Well, he's 30." And I said, "30?" I was like 25. I was like, "That is ancient. Let's forget it."
 
And she hounded me and hounded me and hounded me until finally I just relented and I said, "Fine, I'll be in Atlanta. I'll meet him for lunch." But I didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And I thought it'd be funny if I wore a set of fake teeth that were very, very, very unattractive to our first blind date and he thought it was hysterical. And I thought, "If he doesn't think it's funny, he's not for me anyway." And he thought it was so funny. We were engaged three months after that and married three months after that. 
 
[00:02:28] And I can tell you this, it's been a whirlwind of a ride. We had eight children in our first 11 years of marriage. And it has been super fun ever since. We have one in college, three in high school, two in middle school, and one in...no way. And two in elementary school. I can't even keep it all straight. 
 
So we have a total. We have four boys and four girls. We love Jesus. We love people. We love pouring into people, particularly with those with children, because we want them to live intentionally and we want them to live purposeful lives with their kids, because we believe personally that there's no greater responsibility than the raising of the next generation. We are just simply imperfect parents raising imperfect kids, you know, doing the best we can alongside everybody else. So that's us.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:03:13] Well, and that is always intriguing, I'm sure, when people hear you mention that you have eight children. So first, what do your logistics even look like at home?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Well, let me tell you this. First, people are very intrigued by this. You don't really realize it until you get it everywhere you go. They're particularly blown away at how close they are together. Like right now we have a 19, 18, 17, 15, 14, 13, 11, and almost 9-year-old. 
 
In different seasons of our lives, people are curious I think for different reasons. So like when they were young, and I would walk into a grocery store with a five-year-old, a four-year-old, a three-year-old, a one-year-old, and a newborn, they would literally stare at me like I had robbed a daycare or something. They were like, what in the world? Like I have a third eyeball.
 
And their number one comment they would always say is, "Man, you have your hands full." And my kids have picked up on that at a very, very young age and they couldn't quite figure it out. But then as they got a little bit older, and then we had three in middle school and four in elementary school, people would want to know, Oh my goodness, how do you handle all the homework? Or how do you send in seven technologies to school or sharing...? How many computers do you have at home? Or just how do you keep the logistics straight? 
 
And I feel like now with six teenagers, we're at a stage where everyone wants to know how in the world do you manage like cell phones, car insurance, paying for college, you know, things like that. 
 
[00:04:34] So over the years, they've been intrigued for different reasons, with their ages. But I would say hands down the biggest thing logistically that has helped us in all of the stages, for sure, is being organized. We had to set that tone early on, like very early on our home. And that's that we're just not individuals, but we're a family. You know, we're a family unit and we have to be organized to the very best of our ability to make sure that everything runs smoothly. 
 
But also and I'd say equally as important as setting that tone is that we have to be flexible because we have a lot of curveballs that come our way. The kids have to learn to roll with the punches, you know. Like, if the travel baseball game gets rain-delayed, and we're late to our next event, or if six of them have an event at the exact same time, not all of them are going to have a parent to take them to the event, or even watch the event at the very least. 
 
But we want them to know from a very young age that they each have a very, very important role to play in our family unit. And it's a team effort. So we started really early on with daily chores. People always ask, how young can you start? And we start as early as three. 
 
[00:05:39] I would tell you, you asked about logistics and I think about mom hacks, but hands down my biggest, biggest, most important mom hack is my whiteboard. I don't know if you saw it when you walked in, but it is my lifeline. And it's where I can delegate everything that needs to be done in the day and in the week to my children. It's what keeps things running smoothly in our house.
 
It has everything from all of our activities to things that have to get done as far as chores, to carpools, meals, birthdays. Anything and everything that has to happen in the week it's on that whiteboard. It's the very first thing that kids see when they walk in the door, and they know exactly what their chores are. And they know when they have to be done. I really don't think I could live without it or manage without it. That's my biggest mom hack. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:06:25] Well, in that organization, is that something that was a learned skill in you or is that a natural temperament or personality trait? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: No, it isn't a natural thing. It is a learned thing where I've had to go before other people and I've had to say, "Hey, okay, it is out of my control now. I'm so far outnumbered, like, how can I do this and what makes the most sense?" And I learned even through the temperaments, which I'm sure you're familiar with, that I have a lot of blues in my home. And they like structure, and they like to see what's for dinner and they like to see what their chore is and they know before they go to school, or right away. That really just helps that child individually as well. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:06:59] Okay, so I'm sitting here in your beautiful home, and it's so clean and organized. So you said that you learned this over time. Do you have any tips for some mom who's just starting out and maybe she has kids close together and she wants to be more organized as well?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I would say start on the weekend with preparation. I mean, that's what we do. I'm gonna share a little bit about it more later. But we have a staff meeting on Sunday nights just to go through the week and see what has to get done. And I check in with each child and like, when are you working? When are you babysitting? Do you have any doctor's appointments? Do you have PT appointments that so many of my kids seem to have? 
 
And I go ahead and get it organized and I plan it out for the whole week. Then based on that, I'll look and go, Okay, well, we have seven activities in the afternoon, so it's not the time to drill out. You know, we're not even going to be home. So that's going to be a crock pot meal day. 
 
Or I'll look at the weather because we have nothing the next day and I'm thinking that Monday and is supposed to be 100% thunderstorm. So again, we're not going to grill out, but I can plan. Because then what would happen is you buy all this meat or you buy all this food and you plan to grill out, well then you can't do it for whatever reason. So it just saves time. 
 
I go to the grocery store on Sunday, I hit all of the stores, and buy everything for the whole week so I don't have to go back until midweek. The only reason I go back midweek is because we drink 12 gallons of milk a week and I can't store that many. So I go midweek for more produce and milk. But it saves so much time throughout the week. And that hands down will keep you organized and keep things running smoothly.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:08:27] That's incredible. I'm still kind of stuck on the 12 gallons of milk per week. But with such a full house, did you strategically fit in time to enrich your marriage? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. We have certainly tried to do so anyway. We want to be married people first and parents second. And we realize that we're going to be together when the kids are grown and gone, so we want to make sure that we foster that relationship with the two of us. 
 
So we've had to be creative over the years, that's for sure. We've tried to have regular date nights, and sometimes through different seasons, that's more feasible than others. I remember when we first got married, David had just opened his practice, brand new dental practice, and we could hardly afford to pay a babysitter with six kids and go do something. So we would pay a sitter and we would go fishing, or we would go play tennis or just do something that was super inexpensive.
 
Also over the years, I have to say we have been so very, very, very blessed by so many friends that have offered to watch our children so that we can get that time together. We're always on the constant learning curve. But we're always looking to connect in different ways. 
 
I would say in the phase that we're in right now, it's been day dates, which has been really, really fun. He gets off work now on Wednesdays early and so we go have lunch and we'll go fishing or we'll just do something in the middle of the day, which is totally unique and new for us. But it's been really fun.
 
[00:09:47] One of the things I do want to add about our dates is that we purposely do not ever talk about our children on our dates. Like that's our time to connect. That's for us and no one else.
 
In addition to that though we do have a lot of other little things that we do to make sure that we stay connected throughout the week because it gets so crazy once Monday hits. Like I mentioned earlier, we have the Sunday night staff meetings, and we stop and we talk about the upcoming week. You know, what's going on, our schedules, which child is needing some extra love and attention right now, which child needs more spiritual direction, which child needs to go to the dermatologist, which child needs to go the orthodontist for the first time, things like that, that we have to just like pause and be aware of. 
 
Or even like, which child's slipping through the cracks right now, because we have some squeaky wheels and we haven't been giving this one enough attention. So we always want to be on the same page with eight kids. And it's certainly a lot to keep up with. And that's a simple way that we can connect. 
 
Another thing I thought about that David does intentionally that I love is that he calls me every day on the way home from work, just maybe for a minute, maybe five minutes. But it's that few short minutes of uninterrupted time before he walks in the door and everyone's Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, and you know, then we're literally dividing and conquering, running in a million different directions. But that's kind of our time to how was your day, how are you, those types of things we can connect with.
 
[00:11:09] And a couple other little things that we try to do, and I don't always do it very well, but I asked him periodically, maybe every six months, maybe every year, Hey, in the season that we're in right now, I know, I can't do everything well, but what are three things that I can do that are meaningful to you? Or what are three things that I can focus on that I can do really well?
 
And the funny thing is he's such a simple guy that he rarely has three things. It's usually one or two at the most. And he rarely changes them up. But I think the point of it is that the act of intentionality and just asking him, Hey, you know what's important to you right now? What can I do for you? 
 
And then the last thing is that he leaves for work really early in the morning while it's still very dark, and I don't always do it but I try every single morning before he leaves for work, it's like, hey, what's one thing I can do for you today? And just that check-in, just that intentionality of that. 
 
I think what we've learned over the years that in order to enrich our marriage and to connect, it's not anything major. It's just all these little simple things that build up over time. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:12:07] That's such honoring question. I love to hear some examples like that. Back to your staff meetings, are those just with you and your husband first and then you include the kids as well? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: No, it's just with David and me. We'll sit upstairs, and you know, he might make notice, you know, obviously in his line of work.. He'll say, you know, it's really about time for this one to see the orthodontist. Well, I had no idea. Or hey, this one's really struggling with her self-image, maybe you can just give her some extra dad attention or dad love and just pour into her.
 
So it's really more just trying to meet their needs, not just physically but spiritually, their heart needs. Like, Hey, have you noticed this one's been withdrawing a little bit? Have you noticed this one's complaining or these two cannot get along? They're like oil and water. What are we going to do? So it's more like that. 
 
But funny that you asked about if the kids are involved. They are not involved with that. But on Sunday nights, one of the things that we started doing a number of years ago was... we call it TED Talk Sundays. And I don't really know why we call it that. But I think maybe the first time we watched a TED talk together. But we eat in the family room and watch TV, like a purposeful thing, whether it's a documentary, or whether it's a TED talk, or a YouTube video, or something like that. We do that with the kids. And that's kind of fun to do just as a family. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:13:17] Oh, those are neat traditions. So going back to raising all of these kids, how were you able to care for yourself during all of these seasons of parenting?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, that's a good question. In regards to self care, I will tell you that the season when that hands down was the hardest for me was when my kids were little. For 15 straight years, I had either a baby or a toddler in the home. And 15 years is a really long time. And I struggled. I really, really did.
 
But David would walk in the door after what seemed like an eternity. You know, he'd be gone all day and I'd been at home, like I said, a six-year-old, five-year-old, four-year-old, two-year-old, one-year-old and I was sickly pregnant. And I just needed adult interaction. That's one of the things that helps me with my self care, because people are what energize me. Absolutely.
 
So those years were really hard and the years that I was in the trenches. And I felt so drained, and I felt exhausted because I didn't have that adult interaction that I craved. But the good thing, my sweet husband, he was always so willing and gracious to allow me that time if I had the energy to go out. 
 
As the kids got older and became a little bit more involved in activities, I was able to then go out and have conversations with other moms and develop relationships and interact, whether it's at the ballpark or whatever it might have been. And that helped. I will say, now hands down. I'm in the best season as far as able to foster friendships and relationships. And that's what fills my cup. So it gives me energy. 
 
[00:14:44] You also just alluded to self care, and that's kind of I'm thinking of like, what fills me up. And that's people. But I also think physically is another big part of that, like how you take care of yourself physically with that many kids and you just feel like all you're doing is caring for somebody else.
 
In the earlier years, obviously, that was very hard to do, because I was either pregnant or I had just given birth or got pregnant again. And I was extremely, extremely sick throughout all of my pregnancies. So working out was the last thing that I felt like doing. But once my kids were in school, oh, my goodness, it was so much easier to go on a walk or play tennis or workout or do whatever I wanted to do. 
 
And I would say, in addition to that, taking care of myself emotionally, and spiritually is very, very, very important, because so much stems from that. I found that for me, one of the most helpful ways just to stay on track spiritually and check myself emotionally was through mentors.
 
When we first got married, we were involved in a super incredible ministry that had older couples that were willing and ready just to pour into us. And we immediately hit it off with one of the couples there. Now all I can say is that they loved on us so well. Like they genuinely loved on us. They watched our children for us. 
 
[00:15:57] I remember one time, we just had six kids with the stomach bug, and we were gone that next weekend, and they came to our house and cleaned it from top to bottom for us. And they were such a huge influence in our lives. We even named our seventh child after them. His name is Witt, because they meant that much to us. 
 
And they just served us so well during those years when we were just in the trenches. That's the only way I know to describe it. But in addition to them, we also have another couple that live in Florida and they have 12 kids, and they are absolutely amazing. And the thing that's amazing about them, as busy as they are, they always, always, always make time for us. 
 
She's never too busy to take my phone call. She always is offering me sound practical advice. And even more than that, just friendship and perspective and humor to get through those tough years. So, mentor is a huge part of my self care.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:16:47] I think that's always encouraging to hear and inspiring to find your own mentor.
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, yeah. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors.
 
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Laura Dugger: [00:19:08] Those friendships you were alluding to earlier, did you prioritize those during all of the stages of parenting?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: I tried to the best of my ability because friends are my lifeline whether it's friends far away that I stay in touch with by phone, or a friend that I talked to every morning first thing or those that I just text with periodically throughout the day and then those, obviously, I see on a regular basis. But they all give me energy, you know different friends in different ways. 
 
Obviously, some seasons are easier than others to foster those relationships. But being a high yellow extrovert, it is definitely a high priority for me. 
 
You know, when your kids are younger, your friends tend to be those with kids in your same stage of life. You're involved in the same activities or in your small group or sports families. It's the ones that run in the same circles that you do. For us, when that was the case, we always tried to look for people that had the same type of parenting mindset that we had, because that's who you naturally spend a lot of time with, you know, when your kids are younger. And we wanted to be like-minded in our parenting with them. 
 
But then the beauty of it is, as your kids get older, you have a little bit more freedom and time to seek out other friendships, whether you're still in the same circles with your kids or not. I recognize that not everybody has the need or the strong desire to foster friendships or be around a lot of people. Not everyone has that. But for me, it really is a need, and so therefore, I've made it a priority. 
 
One of the reasons is because I love people. But the other reason is that there's only two things that last forever. And it's people and the Word of God. So it's like, to my best of my ability, that's where I want to spend my time. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:20:45] For the mom who has that same desire, maybe she's yellow temperament as well, did you ever feel guilty prioritizing those friendships when your kids were little?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: You know, I think my husband has been a huge gift in that because he never made me feel guilty. And I've been wired this way since the day I was born. So I knew it was a need of mine. I didn't necessarily know that I was, you know, a seven or that I'm a yellow. I didn't really have the words to put to it. But because he was so free and understood that when I came back, I had more life, and I was a better me. And the better me that I can be, the better version of me those around me get. So I didn't. Maybe that's wrong. I don't know. But I didn't.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:21:27] I love it. What did have to go or what did you have to sacrifice and say no to in order to say yes to giving your family adequate time? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, wow. Over the years, cumulatively, I would say lots of things. There were seasons when I had to give up leading weekly women's groups or give up tennis, which I love, or step back from being super involved in my kids' activities, or even in the community, which I'm a huge part of.
 
I live life pretty full throttle. I always say that when I get to heaven, I just want to be out of breath. The way Erma Bombeck says it is... I just have to tell you, she says, "When I stand before God, at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left and I could say I used everything you gave me." 
 
I just love that. That's how I want to live. And I realized that I have a high capacity and I'm full throttle. And so I tend to say yes to more things than others would. And there's certainly been times when David's had to kind of pull me back a little bit and give me a reality check and say, Hey, we need to simmer down, or we need to slow our roll on this. And we had to reevaluate my schedule and ask, you know, is this in fact the best yes, for this season in our lives? I know you love women's groups, but is this the best yes for right now? I know you love tennis, but for right now, is this the best yes?
 
There's a lot of things that I had to say no during those seasons. I know this sounds silly, but one of the things I had to give up was sleep. And I know that every mom does. I get that. I am not a morning person at all. I like to stay up past midnight and sleep the last possible minute. 
 
But I got to a point where I knew that I only have so many hours in a day. And if I want to attend to my family when they're available, and I still also have this conflict of what, you know, tension of things that I want to get done I had to get up early to do those things that I wanted to do so that it didn't take up family time. 
 
Or let's say if I wanted to spend time during the day doing something fun with friends or whatever I want to do, I needed to get up early to make sure that dinner was still made or the sheets were washed, or whatever needed to be done that day, I had to get up early to make sure that it wasn't sacrificing. Just because I wanted to go out and be with my friends, I'm not just, oh, there it goes all the family responsibilities. You know, so sleep was one. I don't know if that makes sense but that was a big one for me. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:23:44] Yeah, definitely changing your natural preference to be a night owl. And did any of this change or evolve from the time that you had your first to your eighth child?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I would hope that with time and experience came one stone, you know, and still continues to come. But there are times where I have been incredibly stubborn. It took me a little longer to get to a place of surrender, to say, no, I can't do this right now or no, this is not the season. 
 
And over the years, my perspective has changed greatly. I think back to reading my journal entries when I just had one child and I just thought, "Oh my goodness, this is exhausting. How can I do this?" And now looking back, having eight and looking at that, my perspective has changed so greatly. 
 
But also as I'm learning and growing and I learned about the temperaments and love languages and my kids' emotional needs and really started studying my kids. I was able to let go of some things a little bit easier and not resist it so much. For instance, I used to think I needed to give them all a certain amount of quality time and I needed to give them all the different love languages. And I realized that that's not the case.
 
[00:24:50] I mean, we don't treat them as if everything is fair. We joke about it but we say fair is just a place where you go to get cotton candy. And it's true though. They don't all need the same amount of quality time. They don't all need the same gifts. They don't all need the same amount of physical touch. I mean, we have one daughter that really can't stand physical touch. We call her PT for short, just the personal physical touch because she doesn't like it. And their needs are going to vary from child to child. And once I understood that, it was just a huge relief for me.
 
Another thing that had to evolve and that I was able to grow into was humbling myself and really realizing that I'm not the only one that can give them the direction and the love and the affirmation that they need. They're going to have other people like coaches and Young Life leaders and small group leaders and FCA leaders and on and on and on that can pour into them in ways that I can't do it. 
 
I realized, yes, I'm their parent, but I'm not the only one that's going to raise them and lead them and disciple them and nurture them. Because it really, especially with the big family, it really does take a village. And there's not as much pressure on me because I realized that God has raised up and equipped other people to reach them in ways that I never can. So it's actually been really free.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:25:57] I love that. I think that's a great word of encouragement for everyone. You have the benefit of having older children who have launched well while you're simultaneously still in the trenches with your younger kids. So what can you see in your older kids now that has paid off from the intentional parenting that you and your husband did when they were young?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, man, this is a great, great question. It is our desire to parent with a long-term goal in sight. You know, we don't want to parent for the here and now, we want to have a long-term vision. Not what's gonna give them happiness right now, but what's gonna give them long-term gratification later. 
 
The tricky thing about parenting is, though, you don't always know if what you're doing is going to work or how they're going to turn out until, you know, sometimes it's too late. Or sometimes you don't know how they turn out until they actually turn out when they're grown.
 
There have been a lot of times that I have felt alone in my parenting journey. And I've complained to David and just said, You know, no one gets it. Because most of our friends that had kids when we first had kids had one kid, maybe two kids, the most three, and then they stopped. And we kept having children. 
 
And then our friends that have college-aged kids like we do, they're either empty nesters or they're really close to it. And all of them that have like two or three children, for the most part, they're in the same stage of life. Their kids are in the same season. Like they both are in high school or both are in middle school. And, you know, we have kids in elementary school, middle school, high school, and even college. 
 
[00:27:22] And it wasn't until this summer that I realized, to get back to your question, what a gift that this is, and that it's a unique perspective that we have that not a lot of parents can receive or have. For instance, I went to UGA this summer with my oldest son for his orientation and I witnessed parents sitting in classes at orientation for their children while their children slept in. 
 
I witnessed a mom trying to get handouts for her son, because our son didn't want to come to his orientation. The professors were telling parents, it was so funny, he's like, "Back off. Stop taking pictures of these slides because you're not going to school in the fall. Your kids are." The parents who are saying, "Hey," to the kids, "Get off Snapchat. Start taking pictures of these slides because your parents are not going to be here in the fall with you." It was so eye-opening and it was so mind-boggling at the same time to me. 
 
My son, you know, over the course of those couple of days, Maxton, he told me about kids that couldn't get their ID taken by themselves or get their meal plans purchased without their parents there helping them. And probably the sweetest gift I had that weekend that I was able to receive was I had the privilege of sitting with him at dinner before I headed back home and he said to me, he said, "Mom, I didn't appreciate it when I was younger, but thank you. Thank you. Thank you for teaching me how to do things for myself when I was at home so that I'll know how to do things now that I'm on my own."
 
He said, "You know, I look around and it blows my mind how these kids can't do anything for themselves. And I'm so, so, so glad I am. And I can." And I just sat there and I thought, that is such a gift to me because we're able to see the fruits of our labor while I still have young children at home. And it was like this affirmation that, hey, just keep doing what you're doing. 
 
We live in a very affluent area, entitlement is rampant. It's just prevalent everywhere we go. And I've thought a lot about entitlement. My husband and I talk a lot about it. We believe that entitlement is not just how much do you give to our children, but equally is how much we do for our children. The more we do for them, the less they want to do for themselves. 
 
We've always believed the philosophy that just because we can provide or give doesn't mean we should. So we've made them work, we've made them do really hard chores, make them pay for a lot of their own things. And just seeing how that has played out with our oldest son in college has been such an affirmation with still having the younger kids at home just saying yeah, keep doing what you're doing. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:29:46] So as you look back when they were younger, would you have considered yourselves in the category of strict parents? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Yes. I would say that when they were younger, we were incredibly strict. The beauty of that is the more strict and consistent you can be when they're younger, the more hands-off you can be when they're a little bit older. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:30:06] That's encouraging. So it sounds like all of the hard work is worth it. Is that right?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Yes, it's worth it. Some days more so than others.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:30:14] Well, and now with your older kids, what do they say are some of the best lessons that you and your husband taught them?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: We've talked about this with the older four kids on a regular basis. And matter of fact, the day before Maxim left for college, we took them out to lunch, and we asked him, we said, "Hey, what advice do you have for us with the younger seven?" And the look on his face was just priceless. Like, what do you mean? 
 
We just said, "Hey, you know, you're done. You're on your own now. Is there any advice that you can say for the younger children? Things that you liked, things that you didn't like, things that worked, things that didn't...?" Older four would say that we've encouraged their success, but we fully embrace their failure. Being hands off, so that they could fail as much as possible while they're still in the home. 
 
We have this mantra, don't bail, let them fail, because we want them to learn the lessons at home, rather than protecting them all along the way and then all of a sudden, they have their first failure at college. So we did want to encourage them to experience failure while they're still at home. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:31:08] What did some of those failures look like? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Anything from forgetting their uniform on game day, and not rushing up there to bring them to uniform. Or they all have to make their own lunches from kindergarten on. And if they forgot their lunch, you know what, I know you don't love buying lunch, but there's still food there, you're not going to go starving. 
 
Some of them it was bigger failures. Most recently my daughter had a pretty bad car accident and we didn't rush in and buy her a brand new car. And we didn't say, "Oh, well, you understand accidents happen?" Yes, we do understand that but there's still a consequence to everything. So when our insurance skyrocketed, she has to pay that difference. So those types of failures within the home where there's still a consequence to their failures so that they can learn.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:31:50] So you let them experience the natural consequences with it?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Absolutely. We try to at least. That's always our goal, the natural consequence. Because everything they do... everything we do is a choice. And it has its consequences and it has its pros and cons. So to learn that early on, we think the better. 
 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: It's interesting. They all would say that they have appreciated how much we have taught them to be independent and responsible and can advocate for themselves. Like, we're not going to go to their teachers. We're not going to go to their coaches. We're going to let them work it out.
 
You don't agree with this grade or you think it's subjective, like you talk to them. I remember my daughter was in the third grade, and she came home and she said, "Oh, my goodness, I left my homework at my desk. Would you please email my teacher and tell her that I'll get there early and I'll do it in the morning." And I said, "Oh, absolutely, I will."
 
And all the other kids were like, "You're gonna email her?" So I sat down to my computer and I said, "Dear Miss Pillman, I just want you to know that Mary Madden left her homework on her desk, and she wanted to make you aware of it. And I'd love for you to punish her however you see fit. Thank you so much. Elizabeth." And she was like, "Mom." 
 
But you know what, the teachers appreciate that. It's not like we're going to step in and we're going to swoop in and rescue every single time. But they just all say that they feel so much more competent than so many of their peers, and they're really appreciative of that. 
 
[00:33:03] Our second is heading off to UGA in the fall as well and he recently told me, he said, "Mom, you're not gonna believe this but I'm so grateful that I know how to do laundry. None of my friends know how to do it." I really just had to laugh, because here he is, this 18-year-old boy and he's been doing it since he was eight. They all fought us on it when they were learning to do laundry. 
 
We have a little rule in our home that says, when you turn eight, you're no longer a consumer, but a contributor. And when they turn eight and they have to contribute, one of the things that they have to do is their laundry. So they all would dread their eighth birthday. They're like, No. But now he's so grateful that he knows how to do it. He knows how to do it well. He's had lots of years of practice.
 
There's so many new things that you have to experience when you go off to college. So many first, so many unknowns. You have a lot of things that you're trying to navigate and figure out and laundry is not something new to him. It's not something new to any of them. It's just something they've always done. And that's just one less thing for them to worry about. 
 
But the last thing I would say, my daughter recently said this to me, is how grateful she is for the manners that we've taught them. And she said really just showing them how to treat other people. And the reason she said this, I thought it was interesting, is because at school she sees the drastic difference in how people treat their peers, how they speak to their teachers, and even how they speak to their family. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:34:21] I just want to say thank you to someone who left this personal review and five-star rating on iTunes. Farmerswife402 says, "I love how their various guests talk on a bunch of different topics, and you will leave feeling refreshed and a little bit wiser." Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a review. 
 
To go back and highlight a few of those things, I love that paradigm shift. They're not consumers, they're contributors. So they did their own laundry. What are a few other practical examples of what they were expected to do?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Their chores, picked it up big time. Before it was more, you know, like feeding the dog and watering the plants and some of the more simple things. But then it's washing your own sheets and making your own bed. And I don't just mean daily. But I mean, you know, starting from scratch where it's a little bit harder to make.
 
They also start helping with dinner. Now it doesn't mean that they cook the whole dinner, but they might make the banana bread, or they might cut the fruit salad or something that's a portion of it. So things like that that contribute to the family and help me and help others, you know.
 
Laura Dugger: [00:35:22] And I think you painted a realistic picture that it didn't go unopposed. There may have been whining or fighting about it. In the long run they appreciated it.
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I mean, none of us really want more work put on our plate. I remember the first time my son was nine made his first meal. And part of making his own meal was like, "Okay, what are you going to make? Now just making the meal doesn't mean the food is here. We have to go to the grocery store.
 
It was so funny he wanted to make taco salad. So I said, "Well, we're gonna go to the produce section." And he's like, "What's the produce?" You know, he had no idea. And I said, "Well, because you don't have to buy the groceries." So we showed him all the different types of lettuce. And okay, well now what's on sale? And what can feed our family? And how much do we need to buy? 
 
He complained the whole way. "How long is this going to take?" But the look on his face when he had finished making that meal for 10 people, you realize not many nine-year-olds can cook for 10 people. And I actually think at the time my mother-in-law was living with us. And it was 11. And the satisfaction that he had. "Wow, I did this."
 
And the other thing I would add about chores is never give a chore to a child that you don't adequately train them how to do. It doesn't mean they're gonna do it perfect. But you know, you can't just say, "Go clean the bathroom." "What do I need to do?" So you adequately train them so that they're not met with frustration when you come back and say, "What did you do in here?" But instead, you can go, "Okay, you did a great job. Now next time, we're going to actually clean around the toilet." And just add build on to it each time. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:36:45] That reminds me of something my husband always says, that we either can go from easy to hard or hard to easy. So maybe the hard part is taking the time adequately training them, but it pays off.
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh. I mean, that's why most moms say, "It's just easier for me to do it myself." And I understand that it's easier. But is it the most beneficial thing? That's the question. I mean, sure, it's easier for me to do it. 
 
I do want to add one more thing about chores. When they're doing something, to really just encourage them as they're doing it instead of leaving them with "Oh, you missed this spot," or, "Oh, I can't believe you did this." But just to encourage them. Because, you know, none of us want to do a job that someone's complaining the whole time you did it wrong. You just want to go, "Fine. You do it then. If that's the way you want it, then you do it." But just to encourage them and then say, "Hey, maybe next time we'll try it this way and see how that turns out." 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:37:36] Well, before we hit record today, you had mentioned in previous conversation that you often see younger moms battling shame and guilt. And you've even talked about it here. That just because we can do or provide or give something doesn't mean that we should. So how do you recommend we discern the difference? 
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I certainly have seen this with younger moms. But honestly, all women, you know, in some form or fashion struggle with guilt or shame. "We aren't doing enough" or "we aren't good enough," or we messed up," or "we were short with our kids," or "we didn't give them enough or provide them enough or do enough for them." Or to the other extreme, "we gave them too much. We provided them with too much. We did too much." Whatever it might be, there's a lot of shame and guilt associated with it when we're second-guessing and wondering, did we do the right thing?
 
I would say the key is prayer. It really is. So often we do things out of rote memory or just busyness or a checklist to get us through our day. I guess the question I would ask is like, how often do we really just pause and pray and ask the Lord? And then discern, what does He have for us and what does He have for our children? 
 
I think sometimes parenting tends to be a herd mentality, and we just go along with the cultural drift of society. It shouldn't be because we're all unique, and so are our children. And so our parenting should reflect that. 
 
I've talked to so many young married girls that will emphatically tell me, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna have two kids," or "I'm gonna live in the city," or "no, I'm staying home with my kids. I'm not going to work." And then I've had some moms say, "I'm gonna homeschool all 12 years, every single one." Or I've had moms say, "I will never do public school." I've had a mom tell me, "I will never work outside the home. Ever."
 
[00:39:20] The offering that I would have for them and to them is, instead of dictating what your life will be like to the Lord, pause and pray and ask Him, what does He want? What does He have for us? You know, maybe you want two kids, but He's asking you for four. Maybe you wanted to homeschool out of fear and protection of your kids but He's asking you to grow your faith and grow your children's faith by putting them in public school.
 
Maybe He wants you to work. Maybe He wants you to quit your job. You know, the point is that I don't have the answer. But the point is that we just need to pause long enough to ask the Lord what does He require of us. And just sit in stillness long enough to listen and to see what He has to say.
 
I did a Bible study a number of years ago called Go and Tell No One and it was super fascinating to me. I never realized how many times in Scripture Jesus would heal someone and then He would say, Go and Tell No One. I would want to be telling everybody, "Oh, my goodness, look, I got healed." And He would say, No, go and tell no one. 
 
And then this study, she often referenced Luke 5. And if I can share that, it says, "Yet the news about Him spread all the more so that the crowds of people came to hear Him and to be healed of their sicknesses. But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed." And I'm sure He could have stood outside and heal people all day long, much like our to-do list, the line would have been never-ending. But what He did was He prioritized the important over the urgent. 
 
We get so caught up in whatever's right in front of us, like the urgent needs or the request of others, or even sometimes ourselves that we place on ourselves that we often miss the long-term goal of what's most important. And if we're pausing and we're sitting with Jesus and asking Him, "Hey, what is it you want?" Then we can rest in knowing that we're doing exactly what we should be doing with no guilt or shame. 
 
Sometimes what He asked us is countercultural, and you know, people think you're crazy. But at the end of the day, you can lay your head on your pillow at night, and you just have complete peace knowing that you're staying in your lane doing exactly what you're called to do. 
 
Laura Dugger: [00:41:17] I think that you're pointing out that Jesus is big-picture-minded. So as parents, how do you recommend that we stay big-picture-minded too instead of getting bogged down in our repetitive day today?
 
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, goodness, I'm super passionate about this. I don't know if you've ever heard the saying. But if you don't know where you're going, you're liable to end up somewhere else. The Bible says it this way: without a vision, the people perish. And it also says things like, "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
 
And that right there is visionary parenting. It has a long-term goal. I'm a big fan of John Roseman. He's a big advocate of this. He says that we should spend time thinking about what kind of adults we want to raise, long term—when they're 30 or so. And then we ask ourselves, is my daily parenting my daily disciplining with that long-term goal in sight?
 
Laura Dugger: [00:42:07] I think that's a great takeaway to ask ourselves that question.
 
Hey, everyone, we did it again. Just like last week's interview, I found myself so caught up in Elizabeth's teaching that I totally lost track of time. So after recording, we decided to split this episode into two parts as well. Please join us tomorrow as Elizabeth helps us apply all this knowledge to obediently respond to God's stirring in our own lives.
 
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
[00:44:23] If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

73 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part Two with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

73. Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part Two with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman 
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV) “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” 
 
Kathleen Edelman has one goal in life: to help people learn to speak kindly to one another. She is certified in Biblical Studies and has a master’s in Christian Counseling Psychology. Kathleen has spent more than 25 years coaching clients in the art of communication. She is married with two grown children and has a surprising passion for martial arts and pickup trucks. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
I Said This You Heard That by Kathleen Edelman
Kathleen Edelman’s Website 
I Said This, You Heard That App
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
 
Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Kathleen Edelman, author of I Said This, You Heard That. After we recorded, we realized we had entirely too much information to share with you, and it would be easier to digest in two episodes. So we'll pick right back up with the second part of our conversation from yesterday.
 
How can we start to identify others' dominant temperaments? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: When people come in my office, they first leave and they're like, "Oh my gosh, that was so much information," or "this is going to be so hard." Again, it's like learning French and German. You speak French and I speak German. You're yellow and I'm blue, right? But if you immerse yourself in it and you really start listening, you can start to speak the other language. 
 
So again it comes down to the simplicity of just listening to understand. [00:01:24] If we would just learn to pause and what happens to especially in parenting but across all work environments, marriages, most people react to the what that's happening. I'm trying to encourage people to pause and learn to respond to the whys. If we can learn to respond to the "why" instead of the "what", every single conversation will be different. 
 
Laura Dugger: So in light of parenting, can we do another example? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Sure. 
 
Laura Dugger: So my husband's green, I'm yellow, and we have a very blue daughter. So how can we encourage her and speak into the why, like you're saying? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Here's the first thing. You're going to have to know and want to know those innate needs. Even if she's not old enough to really give you a solid definition, you already know safety, support, sensitivity are very important to her. 
 
So, that's where you start. You start speaking into compassion and empathy. "Hey, honey, I see that you're really frustrated with this homework. Let me know how you're feeling about it. Tell me what is it that is making you frustrated. I really would like to hear where that's coming from." [00:02:38] 
 
You're breathing and you're speaking into her language. You're showing her sensitivity and support. Where normally, in your yellow, you'd be like, Oh, how are we gonna make this fun? This is a fun project to do." Okay, that's the last thing a blue person wants to hear. Because to them, they want to do it in excellence and they want to do it in what they feel is perfection. And they don't really look at it as fun. They look at it as a task that they want to get completed. Now, it may be fun but that's not how they're initially gonna look at it. 
 
Your husband might say something like, "Oh, just get it done. It'll be fine." Another thing that will just send the hair on the back of your daughter's neck up because we don't do things that are just fine. That's not even how a melancholy or a blue person thinks. 
 
Our motto is, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. So if you start talking to her in those words, like I had said right off the board, she's going to find you a safe place to be and then you're going to hear more response out of her. [00:03:41] 
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. When we're in that healthy cycle, you just see amazing qualities come out of blues.
 
Kathleen Edelman: And the thing is, parents, we're pulled in society to be so busy that I think we lose focus and vision on how important and how short of time you have with your children. You know, all these parenting opportunities and windows that fly open. 
 
Unfortunately, I see in my office a lot of times parents missing those opportunities, either because they claim they're too busy or "I've tried to do that and it just doesn't work" and "they don't listen" and blah, blah, blah. You know, there's always something. So if we would just recognize that those moments are precious and they are limited, those times will go away. Your children are growing up every day. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and on that note, what potential do you think that we unlock when we do discover other people's colors and we begin to speak to them in their native language? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I think you lift them up according to their needs. [00:04:43] Our lives are a series of choices and circumstances. If you're in your weaknesses, 100% of the time, the circumstance will control you. But if you can stay in your strengths... in your strengths is where your calling and purpose is. And if you can identify and stay there in yourself and be authentic, and then you do that for the children and the people around you, and you're encouraging them to stay in their strengths, their potentials are exactly how God ordained them to be in their calling and purpose of what they're supposed to even be here for. 
 
But even to the basics of what I try to teach, I just want people speaking kindly to each other. Just a kind word that would help somebody just say, You know what, I had a good day today. 
 
Laura Dugger: What a gift that can be. I've heard you say before, I have the tendency to, but I choose to. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: That is probably one of my favorite activities that I absolutely... it was a mandate that it went into the book because that's what's going to keep you in your strengths. Once you identify the weaknesses, and everybody knows the weaknesses that they're stuck in, because the one thing that all temperaments share, unfortunately, is selfishness. [00:06:00] So we are trying to move from selfishness to servitude. 
 
One of my weaknesses for blue might be I remember the negatives. So if I know that I'm struggling with that, then I want to implement this exercise or this activity that says, I have a tendency to remember the negatives, but I'm going to choose in this circumstance to be compassionate. Or maybe I have a tendency to remember the negatives, but this circumstance requires for me to choose to be analytical or logical. 
 
See, I always have a choice, depending on any circumstance that comes in, to choose a strength over a weakness. And that's my choice. Nobody can do that for me. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so empowering because then it doesn't leave us helpless with whatever temperament we have. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: We never, ever, ever, ever use our temperament as a weapon or as an excuse. My heart would break if I ever heard anybody say, Well, that's just how I'm wired. I'm just green. I have no sense of urgency." [00:07:00] Or, you know, hey, I talk with a tone. I'm red. That's just the way it is. No, that's not okay with me. 
 
Laura Dugger: It sounds like the opposite of what you're trying to coach. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Exactly. We can all be our best authentic self if we really just put the effort into how beautifully God designed you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well said. Let's use all of this background knowledge now and zero in on marriage. So from your experience, have you seen more couples that marry in their same or similar temperament or opposite? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Mostly opposite. Opposites attract by far. I always see some kind of diagonal or opposites. The second one I see the most probably is the same temperament just flipped. So maybe a red-blue is married to a blue-red. The one I see the least of is the exact same temperament. I could probably count on one hand how many couples I know that are the exact same temperament. But opposites definitely. [00:08:00] 
 
You know, when you're dating, you know, we throw all the strengths on the table. And we do that subconsciously. That's what's attracted you to each other. But then, unfortunately, in marriage, even in scripture it says in marriage there will be trials, there comes a complacency. And when that sets in, guess what starts to rear their head? Weaknesses. 
 
Then all of a sudden, they end up in my office and they're saying, she used to be fun, or he used to be this, or she used to be that. Because what happened is you immediately start to change your spouse to be more like you. That's when conflict starts. 
 
Laura Dugger: Okay, well, let's elaborate on that. So let's start with a couple that you see most often, the opposite. What conflict can they expect? Do you have any encouragement to provide or any illustrations of how those opposites can work well together? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: They can work extremely well together because first of all, the hardest combination is the red-green or the green-red combination. [00:09:00] Everybody asks me that, and that's the answer. It's the red-green. But that's probably the most... again, the diagonals are the strongest combination. 
 
Why? Because, for example, My husband's secondary is yellow, his strengths are my weaknesses; my strengths are his weaknesses. If we can celebrate that in each other which we did when we were dating, then we become really unbreakable force. We're stepping towards each other because I'm leaning into his strengths, not complaining about his weaknesses. And he's doing the same. 
 
So it's like if you interlocked your fingers, you know, that's a really powerful grip right there is to have that interlocking relationship. But it takes humility. It takes vulnerability. It takes grace. It takes humility. And we want to make sure that we stay there because I'm very much about having every couple stay in boyfriend-girlfriend mode. [00:10:07] 
 
I've been married 30 years. I really push this a lot because that's when you were celebrating each other's strengths, you were attracted to each other's strengths, and you were probably in your strengths. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. So encouragement to stay in boyfriend-girlfriend mode. 
 
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 
 
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Laura Dugger: Let's flip this into parenting. How can we truly train up the child in the way they should go as we look at these temperaments? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Let's just apply Ephesians 4:29. Every word that comes out of your mouth to your daughter has to be what Proverbs 18:21 says, on your tongue lays the power of life or death. So is it life words building her up according to her needs, not your needs, and benefiting all who listen? 
 
So we really want to identify that and then make sure that we're feeding into the design that God made for that child, because it's within their design that they're calling in purposes. [00:12:17] And it's our responsibility as parents to have them thrive in their design, have them thrive in their purpose, give them a strong foundation so they can authentically be themselves without ever having to look side to side and question who they are or why they're here. They can be so solid in "this is who I am. This is how I'm wired. I do not have to be a different thing. I can be a beautiful yellow or I can be a beautiful green because that's how I was designed. And that's where my talents and purpose and calling is gonna be."
 
Laura Dugger: Then what about when the weaknesses are coming out? Your yellow is being very charming or your red is using anger to control or green procrastination or blue the moods. How can you parent well? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: The first thing is talk about it. Identify with it. You can absolutely say, "Hey, I see that you're choosing anger with this or tone. Tell me what it is because it seems like you're impatient about this." [00:13:22] What could you do differently or what could you have chosen differently? I'm all about the plan b as well especially. You know, I can see this didn't work out for you what's your plan b 
 
See, it's very important in parenting that we have people, we have the children think and then problem-solve and then make a decision and then live with the consequence. Sometimes parents go in and they just soop in and they give them the answer and they tell their kids what to do instead of showing curiosity and interest and saying, "Oh, I see that this is frustrating you," or "I hear what you're saying and I know you want to go out and play with your friends because you're all about people and you're a very good friend. How are you going to get your homework done first before you go out? Or maybe invite a friend over to do your homework." Whatever the verbiage is goes right in line with whatever their wiring is. 
 
Laura Dugger: I have to think, Kathleen, your kids probably appreciate it so much that you had started this before they even came along, so they were raised with these temperaments. Are there any examples that come to mind as you think back of parenting them? [00:14:34] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, there's hundreds and hundreds. I can remember them still being in car seats and Bryce is a blue and Avery's a yellow. Avery is, "Can we please stop at one more store? Can we just please stop, Bryce, one more store? We'll just... Mom will stop, we'll walk through the toy section at Target. And then if you'll do this with me, I promise that you can read me your Thomas book when we get home."
 
And then you can see Bryce on his car seat kind of thinking about it processing and he's like, "Avery, if you will let me read two books to you when we get home, then I will go through Target with you. But we have to put the timer on that it's five minutes. Agreed?" And Avery would be like, "Agreed." I mean, they were literally honoring each other's temperament very young. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What about your encouragement to them in their temperaments or your correction of them when they were choosing to live out a weakness? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Avery was easy to talk to because she's so in the moment. So I would say to her, you know when she was excessively talking, which she still can do, story after story after story, I would say, "I want to give you my full attention and I can give you my full attention for your first story. You are so good at telling stories. You're gonna have to save a couple for either bedtime or tomorrow. Which one would you like to tell me? [00:15:59] 
 
That way she knows that there's a limit and she knew that I was interested, but she could not dominate the time. She would have just kept going and going if you would have given her the space. 
 
For Bryce, it was more of getting down on my knee and connecting with the feelings and emotions he was feeling. So he would get frustrated about something and I would get on my knees and I would say, eye to eye, "I see you're frustrated that Thomas didn't stay on the track. That can be really hard to try so hard to get him up there. How can I help you keep the train on the track or build a different track? And what's your plan B if Thomas doesn't stay on the track?" 
 
I mean, I was doing plan B's with Bryce since he was like three years old, and I still do it, and he's a senior at Georgia Tech. He just recently called and said, "Well, my group's not getting together for the final. I don't know how I'm going to study." You know what my response was? "What's your plan B?" And he had one. He still had to get that out as a blue, that his plan didn't go as he had planned. [00:17:07] 
 
Laura Dugger: Very helpful for parents. Let's just approach this topic. We'll back up another step from a broader view now. How does an understanding of the temperaments lead someone to more clearly live out their God-given purpose? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: When you accept how you're wired and you don't listen to the world of what you're supposed to be, especially if you're a young couple or you're a young mom and your passion... You know, the word "enthusiasm" means God within. 
 
So when we can stay focused and accept how God wired us and not be told that another temperament's better or you're comparing and looking side to side, but you really sit in that acceptance, and then you really work on feeding your own soul and understanding your innate needs and finding that you can choose to stay in your strengths, all of a sudden that application gives you such freedom that you automatically stop looking side to side. [00:18:11] 
 
And you're looking straight ahead to honor God with how he wired you. Because you came in this world alone, you're going to leave alone. So you want to do every day. Our biggest misconception is that we have time. So we got to think time is a value. It's a gift. I've been given it right now. How am I going to first and foremost love myself and my wiring from God and live out that so that I can do what I'm supposed to do? And that is love others better. 
 
Laura Dugger: And what is your vision for everyone listening? Do you have any final tips that you want to leave them with today? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I would say patience and speaking kind. I mean, I've been doing this for 30 years and my train still goes off the track once in a while. This is a journey. This isn't something that you're going to conquer right out of the gate. It's gonna take practice. So I would ask that they don't lose heart but that they really keep immersing themselves in knowing themselves and knowing others and watching the words that they use. [00:19:11] Because words matter. They matter. They're life or death. 
 
So we really just want to stay there and really pause and think about how we're talking to ourselves and others, and know that eventually, before you know it, it won't be something that you're doing. Just like God didn't ask us to do a witness, He asked us to be a witness. I'm not asking anybody to do the temperaments. I'm asking you to marinate in it so much that it just becomes who you are. That just kind words flow out of your mouth because they're coming from your heart. 
 
Laura Dugger: Thanks to your help sharing episodes and reposting our content on social media. The Savvy Sauce has grown to being streamed in all 50 United States and over 85 countries around the world. If you want to partner with us in sharing the joy of The Savvy Sauce, will you please consider becoming a patron today? 
 
You can join the club for as little as $2 per month, and in addition to some free perks, you will be helping us spread our mission, which is this: we exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing. [00:20:19] Please consider joining us today by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on the Patreon tab. Now back to the show. 
 
Do you have any recommended next steps from here? And also, is there a place where listeners can follow up with you online? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: They can go to kathleenedelman.com or they can go to isaidyouheard.study. You know, 30 years, not all my content but the foundational part of my content is in the book, I Said This, You Heard That. I would start there. And it really just will give everybody the biggest kickstart and some foundational resources to look back on for their family and every relationship. I would definitely start there. 
 
Laura Dugger: And as always, we will definitely link to that in the show notes, and then we'll put a link as well on our resources tab on our website. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, please do. And the videos that go along with the book are free, which I thought that was a brilliant decision made on the people who did the videos, because that's how passionate we are about getting this message out. [00:21:28] 
 
Laura Dugger: Great videos to get to actually talk to everybody in that temperament. Our friends listening know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, Kathleen, I have one final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I really, every day, ask God to make sure that I just spend some of that space and silence time making sure that I'm doing something that feeds my own soul. And I'm not talking about reading my Bible or doing devotionals. What actually do I love? Like, what am I going to do that really makes me walk away and go, oh, that was really fun. It might be a lunch with a friend or like, you may laugh at this, but I've been terrified of horses my whole life. So I'm currently meeting with a girlfriend that is a horse trainer. So, I'm going to conquer that in the next couple years. I'm going to see if I can't ride a horse. [00:22:30] 
 
Laura Dugger: Kathleen, you are such a thoughtful and kind woman and this has been a really enriching interview. So, thank you for just doing an excellent work and then sharing it with all of us. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, I could not thank you enough for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:23:30] 
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:24:34] 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:25:35] 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

72 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

72. Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part One with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman 
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV) “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” 
 
Kathleen Edelman has one goal in life: to help people learn to speak kindly to one another. She is certified in Biblical Studies and has a master’s in Christian Counseling Psychology. Kathleen has spent more than 25 years coaching clients in the art of communication. She is married with two grown children and has a surprising passion for martial arts and pickup trucks. 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
I Said This You Heard That by Kathleen Edelman
Kathleen Edelman’s Website 
I Said This, You Heard That App
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Joyful Boutique
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Are you looking for the latest styles and greatest fashion trends for you and your little ones? The Joyful Boutique is a locally owned clothing boutique located in Eureka, Illinois, but they ship items all over the world. They stock the latest fashionable boutique clothing for children and women ranging in sizes from 2T to 3XL. Check them out today at thejoyfulboutique.com and enter Savvy for a special discount. 
 
If you're interested in understanding your spouse, children, coworkers, and even yourself better, this is the episode for you. I'm thrilled to host Kathleen Edelman as my guest today. Kathleen has studied temperaments extensively, and she's coached clients in the art of communication for over 25 years. 
 
Today we're going to cover the simple framework of temperaments, and she's going to share a multitude of stories and examples to help you learn how to live in your own strengths and to use kind words to draw out the best in others. 
 
Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kathleen. [00:01:28] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Thank you for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: I would love to have you just start us off by telling us a little bit more about yourself and the work that you do. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, I am very motivated by words. So what I do is I pair up communication and the understanding of temperaments, all biblically based. So I've done this for several decades where I've tried to help people find their authentic self and understand that communication can be a gift, not just to others, but to themselves, and that it's very important to foundationally know how God wired you so that we can speak kindly to each other. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. I think you often point out a specific verse that's been very meaningful. Do you mind sharing that with us? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I never mind sharing this verse because it's my family's verse. It is a verse that was brought to me when I was a child, and everything I do in my ministry and in my coaching is based off Ephesians 4:29. [00:02:30] 
 
That verse says, "Do not let any unwholesome words come out of your mouth. Only what builds others up according to their needs and benefit all who listen." I truly believe whether you're a believer or not, if you just used that verse even as a bullet point outline, it would change every conversation. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think that's very wise. Just in case this topic of temperaments is brand new to someone listening, will you explain the four temperaments framework? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. What I find a lot, Laura, is that people get temperament and personality confused. So that question is actually great because there's a lot of personality tests and assessments, and they're online. And what they do is they take just a snapshot of time. 
 
Personality is the what. Temperament is the why. So if we were to look at it, temperament is the why behind feelings, the why behind emotions, because that's what personality is. It's feelings and emotions. So temperament was studied way back at the time of Hippocrates. In about 60 A.D., a physician named Galen put names to them. [00:03:45] 
 
There's four. There's sanguine, choleric, melancholy, and phlegmatic. Each one they thought was represented by fluid or humor in the body, but they've since figured out that's not what it is. But it is how you naturally, innately respond to different situations in your life. So those are the four temperaments, and that is the why behind personality. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that in your work, you've changed those confusing names and titles and given them colors, which we'll use the rest of the time to identify them. So do you mind pairing those up for us? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely not. I may go in between. So please, Laura, correct me, because I've said the Greek names forever. So sanguine is yellow. The choleric is red. The melancholy or melancholic is blue. And the phlegmatic is green. Because those Greek words absolutely can be a mouthful, especially when you're talking to children. 
 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. [00:04:45] You do work with children in addition to adults and businesses. Is that right? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Absolutely. In fact, I've done this longer than my children have been alive. So I have actually seen the benefits of individuals knowing their temperaments from a very, very early age. So what happens even in my office, Laura, is that the children come in and they get temperaments very quickly. They get it. They can identify. 
 
I look at it as each temperament has their own language. Children are very quick to learn another temperament's language. Adults can be a little more challenging because they have a lot more pushback, and they come in with a lot more baggage. I actually love working with children. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I'm sure a lot of parents listening will glean some wisdom from you. So could you break down each of those colors and just give us an overview of what that temperament looks like?
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. The yellow is somebody whose basic desire is fun. What you'll find as I go through these temperaments is each temperament has something that's very unique to that temperament that no other temperament shares. [00:05:55] 
 
So what I love about the sanguine, the yellow temperament, is that what is unique to them is their ability to see the best in people first. They see the best in people and the best in circumstances first. This is a person that's just full of life, and they live in the moment, and they just bring life into the room. When we start talking about strengths and weaknesses, though, there's going to be a little bit of a balance with that life that they do bring into the room. 
 
The choleric, that's the red, what's unique to them... this is a person that's basic desire is power or control. This is a person that is a visionary. They can throw a big net and see a goal or a vision as clear as clear can be. This is a dynamic leader that can delegate well, that just excels in emergencies. Again, their ability to see a vision or a goal is very clear. 
 
The blue melancholy, this is a person that's basic desire is perfection or order. [00:06:57] This person's unique characteristic is they can anticipate obstacles. Where a red sees a goal from A to B, the blue can see every obstacle between A and B. And it's because that blue temperament really, even though they're analytical and they're logical, but at the same time they're artistic and creative and musical. So they're able to see things in a dimensional way. So that is very unique to the blue. 
 
The green is our calm and harmonious green. What is their basic desire is peace and harmony. And what is unique to the green is their ability to be calm in the midst of chaos. This is just a very kind soul that can listen well and is a great shepherd or leader of people. I think this is very interesting that they can... in an emergency, they're the ones that are going to be saying, Hey, it's going to be all right. You're going to be fine. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that. My husband's a green. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Mine too. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, nice. I like all the colors, but I definitely appreciate the greens. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I agree. [00:08:07] 
 
Laura Dugger: As people are listening, I'm sure they're going to want to start to try and identify their own color. So, first of all, will this manifest itself differently when we're in seasons of health versus seasons of crisis and stress? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Absolutely. Because you are innately wired for your temperament. Again, personality and temperament are different. Everybody asks me, you know, as you mature and you get older, does your temperament change? That answer is no. 
 
When you really can identify your own temperament is when you are in crisis or when you are alone. Because when you're in crisis or you're alone, your true temperament will surface. So you can try to be a different temperament or maybe somebody's telling you to be a different temperament while you're at work or at a mom's group or something. But when you get home and you're alone or you're in crisis, we really have to pay attention to what we're naturally thinking. How would we naturally, truly, authentically, organically respond to different things? And that's your true temperament. [00:09:15] 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's helpful. I'm even thinking there are so many moms listening. I'm curious, and this is a personal one. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Sure. 
 
Laura Dugger: This is something that's confused me because I've always thought I was yellow-green. But there's so many tasks in motherhood that I feel like I've had to adapt and become more okay with doing the tasks instead of just focusing on the people. So what would you say to somebody trying to figure that out?
 
Kathleen Edelman: First, I love, love, love young moms. And I love parenting because, again, I just see the benefits day in and day out of understanding this, understanding yourself, like you just asked that question, and then being able to pour into your children's love tank and raise them up in the way they should go, right? Not the way we want them to go. 
 
The yellow-green temperaments are both people oriented. What I would love to stress in all this as you're learning is you were chose to be your children's mom specifically. [00:10:17] So you have every skill and every talent needed to be the best mom for those children. So we really have to believe in our wiring. 
 
Even though you're people oriented, you have the skills and the strengths to do what's necessary, even in a task mode, to be the best parent for your children. You do not have to become a different temperament to tackle those tasks. You can use your gifts to learn a skill, but it's still going to be within your temperament. 
 
Laura Dugger: You're such a natural encourager, Kathleen. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, I believe that I've seen it, Laura, so many times that the aha moments that go off first with the acceptance of how you're wired, and then the awareness of what that means in your behavior and in your words. And then when you start to apply it, it becomes authentic. I would never want the temperaments to be something anybody does. I want it very much to become who you are. 
 
Laura Dugger: And I think that will provide an option for freedom for everyone listening, because we would love for them to not only identify their own temperament, but also be able to recognize other people's temperaments, hopefully by the end of our chat. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Yeah. [00:11:32] 
 
Laura Dugger: So what is the best way for everyone to discover their true color or temperament? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, of course, the best way is to do the assessment. I Said This, You Heard That book study, because the assessment is written in such a way that if you're really wanting to find out how foundationally you're wired, you will find that out. 
 
For some reason, if you didn't have access to that assessment, if we will just listen to understand people, even yourself, if you listen to the words that you use, and you watch the behavior, and again, what core motivates you, you'll start to see like, okay, I can see that I use planning and strategy a lot. You know, I really get overwhelmed or frustrated. Those are all blue words. 
 
And see, we speak out of our own temperament and we hear in our own temperament. And that's why we have to be very careful that just like you, you're a yellow, and I'm a blue. I have to be able to paradigm shift and listen to you in your temperament, so that I can speak your language, so that you know, I understand you, and I can love you better. [00:12:48] 
 
If I continuously speak out of my own temperament, then there's going to be a gray area between us of misunderstanding, not necessarily intentional, but it's only because we're not paradigm-shifting. We're not shifting to speak out of the other person's temperament so they can hear us better. So listening to your words, listening to what motivates you, but honestly, the easiest way is to do the assessment. 
 
Laura Dugger: I would second that your workbook has been incredible. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Thank you. 
 
Laura Dugger: It's called I Said This, You Heard That. We can definitely link to that in our show notes. 
 
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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Laura Dugger: Back to these colors, do you mind just kind of covering both the strengths and the weaknesses of each? [00:15:01] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, what I can do is I can give you an overview of them because, again, in the book, I've put an extensive list. There's probably 40 strengths and 40 weaknesses for each temperament in the book. 
 
But just to get an idea so your listeners get a feel of each temperament, again, back to that yellow, the yellow is an extrovert. It does not mean they like to be around a lot of people. It means that their thoughts and emotions go outward. 
 
This person has no filter, so they speak out. They are great storytellers. They are curious. They are creative. They are energetic and inspiring. They live in the moment. Like I said, they really see the best in people first. Those are the strengths that make them magnetic. 
 
What happens, though, is in order to really understand our strengths, we have to be aware of our weaknesses. We know it's light in a room because we know dark. We know loud because we know quiet. So in order to really understand a strength is a strength is to know that, yes, I'm a good storyteller, but I can also be a compulsive talker. [00:16:07] 
 
So the yellow can be a compulsive talker. They can elaborate and exaggerate. They interrupt. They can be obnoxious. They can be scatterbrained. And so you want to know that so that you can say, Oh, you know, I have a tendency to be a compulsive talker, but I'm really a good storyteller. So what we're trying to do is stay in the strengths of the temperament that you are. 
 
For the red, they are a dynamic leader. They're born to lead in tasks. Like I said, they excel in emergencies. They delegate well. They're quick decision makers. They're confident in their thoughts and in their leadership. They're very driven. Also, they're very good at setting goals. 
 
But they can be impatient, intolerant. In fact, most reds that are in their weakness talk with a tone that the other temperaments are aware of that a lot of reds aren't even aware of. That bossiness almost can be kind of like being a bully. Again, knowing those help them understand their strengths. [00:17:09] 
 
Laura Dugger: I think it was in your app that you made this observation, that a lot of times reds don't view their weaknesses as weaknesses. Is that right? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: That is absolutely correct. A lot of reds that come in my office, and I have a very big heart for reds, and I'll tell you why, they come in my office, and they either don't want to be red, and I'll explain that in a minute, or they'll look at their weaknesses, and they'll say, I don't see any weaknesses here. How can arguing be a weakness? 
 
So they can spin everything as it's kind of a strength. Because the red's motto is "my way is the right way. I'm right." And usually they are right. These are very smart people. I never want to bring the power bar of a red down. I only want to soften their edges. You can do that by having them realize that, yes, they are right, but there may be another right. Their answer is yes, but it may not be the best yes. [00:18:12] 
 
Where my heart gets heavy with the reds is that all the other temperaments are usually described in their strengths. The reds are not. The reds are usually described in their weaknesses. So I'm trying to change that because reds bring a lot to the table. 
 
It's just that their strengths and weaknesses, if you were to put a descriptive word over all of them, the yellows are loud strengths, loud weaknesses, the reds are powerful strengths, powerful weaknesses. The blues are deep strengths, deep weaknesses, and the greens are peaceful strengths, peaceful weaknesses. 
 
So right there, even in that description, this is a powerful person. So the visual change from a choleric going from weakness to strengths is the most obvious because it is just right out there. The reds are also an extrovert. Again, thoughts and emotions going outward, but they're an extrovert that is task-oriented.
 
Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating. And I'm thinking of reds in my life. You're right. I really appreciate them. And they make a lot of good things happen. [00:19:23] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: They absolutely do. This is a person that really they can look at any situation and see a goal or have a vision of how it can be better and how it can be accomplished, usually very efficiently. 
 
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Let's continue on with the blues. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Sure. The blues are analytical, logical. They're compassionate and empathetic. This is a person that's very thoughtful. But they can also be critical, judgmental. They can have false humility and remember the negatives. This is a person that can really try to control or get caught up in their moods. 
 
So what we really want to inspire with the blues is what I see a lot of is we really want to make sure we're pouring into the creative, artistic, musical side of the blues. Because a lot of times they're private and their reserved demeanor can make them unapproachable or seem unapproachable when really their biggest desire is just to be included. [00:20:26] 
 
The greens are kind. They are innately kind. They are great listeners. They are kind to the point of being a fabulous leader of people. This is a person that genuinely cares about other people. They're very harmonious. They're the ones that can keep the peace and can bring the contentment of the group around. They're adaptable. They're consistent of character. There's a calmness that comes with them when they walk into the room. 
 
They do not like conflict. They do not like confrontation. And they have no sense of urgency. So what everybody else sees as urgent or that might get done, you're just not going to get that sense of urgency from the green. They just do not have that urgent streak in their body, which can cause a lot of problems. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to get such an overview of each of them. Even in your workbook, you talk about innate needs of each of the colors. So what are those needs of each of the colors and what happens when those needs aren't being met? [00:21:38] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: And that's why we start, Laura, with the strengths and weaknesses, because if you look at your weaknesses and you see what your first go-to or what you're struggling with, then when you talk about the innate needs, they make more sense of what you're trying to fill. What are you trying to fill with excessive compulsive talking or being impatient or moods or being non-confrontational? 
 
Each temperament has innate needs, and the innate needs, this is such the game changer because this is what separates temperament from personality. 
 
The yellow's innate needs are attention, approval, acceptance, and affection. The collared or the reds are loyalty, sense of control, appreciation, and credit for work. 
 
The blue is safety, sensitivity, support, and space and silence. 
 
The greens are harmony, lack of stress, feeling of worth, and respect. [00:22:43] 
 
These things you have been trying to fill since you were a child. This is like food and water. So when you're talking about strengths and weaknesses and when you're talking about understanding communication, everything that you do, these are your core motivators. This is why you do what you do. 
 
Now, what happens is, I call it the love tank. This is the easiest way to do it. If your innate needs or your love tank is filled with your strengths, then you're in your calling and purpose. Then you have something to give because you cannot give what you don't have. 
 
So when you understand yourself authentically and you're organically filling these needs because you understand them and you understand the definition, then you have something to give another person. If you're trying to fill these needs with your weaknesses, it's like your love tank has a crack in it. It's going to seep out and it's going to create what I call a manipulate spy. [00:23:44] 
 
If you are, for example, compulsively talking and you're being obnoxious and you're trying to get approval and acceptance as a yellow filled with these weaknesses, pretty soon that's not going to work anymore. And then you're going to try to start charming people and have flattery conversations with people. That's your manipulate spy. 
 
For the red, the manipulate spy is tone and volume. If they are saying to their kids, get in the car, get in the car, and the kids aren't getting in the car and they become impatient and intolerant, what's going to happen is their voice is going to go up in volume and their tone is going to get more commanding. And it's only because instead of using their strength, they're using their weaknesses. For the blue, it's moods and silence. For the greens, it's procrastination and withdrawal. 
 
So, again, it's standing back and understanding these innate needs, not just knowing the words, but you want to be able to put definitions with them. See, that's the game changer. 
 
For example, Laura, you're yellow, right? 
 
Laura Dugger: Right. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: So one of your innate needs is attention. You want to know between you and God, what does attention mean to you? Like, how are you going to love yourself better? How are you going to give yourself attention? How are you going to articulate that to your husband? How am I going to help fill that as your friend? If you don't know it, then how am I going to know it, right? [00:25:13] 
 
Laura Dugger: Definitely. And so you encourage everybody to answer these questions for themselves to define it. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. I have to be able to know what safety means to me and sensitivity means to me before I can expect my husband to know how to talk to me or my children or you as a friend. But what it really comes down to is I have to be able to do that for myself. I have to get to a point where I captivate my thoughts and make them honorable, and I'm speaking positive and encouraging and loving self-talk to me. Just like Ephesians 4:29. It says, "Do not let," that means it's a choice, "any unwholesome words." 
 
That first starts with my self-talk. Am I building myself up according to my needs so that I have something to give my husband, you know, so that I have something to give my children? And then once I know that, then I can talk to my husband and say, hey, this is what safety means to me. [00:26:13] And then that allows him some direction to be able to see through my blue lens from his green lens and choose to love me better. 
 
Laura Dugger: I would love to have a few examples as well. If you've done this work, what are some ways that you personally get that space or security or safety that you need? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, let me talk about when I was a young mom and I was doing this when my children were in school. One of my needs is space and silence because I'm an introvert. The blues are introverts, which mean, again, not that I don't like to be around people. It means that my thoughts and emotions go inward. 
 
So I'm a processor. I'm an introvert that's task-oriented, where the phlegmatic is an introvert that's people-oriented, which we can talk about that, too. So the space and silence for me meant that when I came home, I asked my kids to wait on their questions. I'm going to go into my office for five minutes. It was never a long time. 
 
I went into my office and I closed the door and I had space and silence, and I was able to process the day for a few minutes and just get my thoughts organized. [00:27:26] And when I came out of my office, I was a better mom because I was able to just get to a place where now I could love on my kids without feeling overwhelmed, you know, or that I had too many plates spinning. You know, we have to be able to look at that and do for ourselves so that we can be better parents and better wives and better friends. 
 
Laura Dugger: Those stories are always helpful if we could just go around to the colors because you've coached so many people of different colors. So for a green, what would that respect or did you say desire for peace or harmony? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Yes, they have harmony, lack of stress, feeling of worth and respect. Again, what I did for the people that are going to do the study is I put in their examples of the ones I've heard over 30 years that I've heard the most of from each temperament. 
 
For example, feeling of worth for my husband, who happens to be green, his definition was that when there was a big decision to be made that he was given the time to think it through. [00:28:30] And before a decision was made for anything that he would be asked his opinion or his idea of it. Because greens have great opinions and great ideas. They're just very quiet people and they don't always advocate for themselves. 
 
So to show him respect and feeling of worth, I always would ask, hey, what's your input? What are your ideas on this? It's really valuable to me to know what you're thinking. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's a great example. I think my husband would definitely relate to that as well. 
 
I just want to say thank you to someone who left this personal review and five-star rating and review on iTunes. From Ashley Ditto, she writes, "Today I found this because of Rach Kincaid and I'm so thankful I did. What an amazing podcast. So much wisdom in the episodes." Thanks so much for taking the time to leave that review. 
 
And what about the yellows? What story can you think of? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: The yellows... this would be my daughter. So what's very interesting is when you read the definitions of what attention or affection mean to a yellow. But I'll use attention right now because attention most of the time yellows are like, Oh, they want to be center stage or they just want to be the life of the party. [00:29:44] That's not necessarily the truth. 
 
What attention means to my daughter is that when she does have a story to tell me, is that I stop what I'm doing and I make eye contact with her. That shows her that I'm engaged and I am giving her the attention and priority that she's craving. Can you relate to that being a yellow? 
 
Laura Dugger: Very much relate to that and her example more so than being center stage. So that's interesting. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Yeah. And see, those descriptive words are what fall under personality. And that's what I try to get people to understand when they're learning the temperaments is that we're not about descriptive words. We're not about "Oh, Laura's funny. Oh, she's yellow. You know, and Joe, oh, he's a good leader, he's red." That's not what temperaments is. All the temperaments can be funny. All the temperaments can be good leaders. It's really defining these innate needs. 
 
Laura Dugger: Let's finish with the reds then as well. What stories or illustrations do you have? [00:30:46] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: The biggest one for reds by far in the 30 years I've done this, most of the time they'll talk about loyalty. I just had another young lady who's a very red talk about how she was so moved with her team at work, because there was a discrepancy. And she found out that every single person on her team relayed back to their boss's boss, that what this young lady had done was the exact right thing and that she was doing it for the group. 
 
So what they basically were filling for this girl was loyalty. Like they had her back. They showed her that our word is our word. You know, we said we would support you and we're doing it. So that's big for a red. 
 
Laura Dugger: I just think that it's exciting to come up with ways to genuinely build up others around us, especially in a way that they can most resonate with. So what words or phrases do each of the temperaments need to hear? [00:31:50] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Well, again, when you start learning the language of each temperament, where I ask everybody to start kind of like a cheat sheet would be to use words right off those charts of like the innate needs and the strengths and weaknesses. 
 
So for a yellow, you want to let them know that, hey, you approve of what they're doing. They don't have to change a bit. I would love to give you my focus and attention in your story. You can use the words right off the charts that I've created. 
 
For the reds, it can look like, Hey, I'm loyal to you. I got your back. I appreciate how much work you've put into this. That was a lot of physical work. I don't think anyone else could have done it. See, again, I just used words right off the innate needs chart. 
 
Same for the blue. Hey, I'm a safe place to be. I'm very sensitive to what you're saying, and I want to make sure I understand it so I can give you the support that you need. Just easily the words right off the chart. 
 
Then for the greens, it could be something like, I respect your decision. You are such a value to this team. If you weren't here, it wouldn't have went the way it went. So we really appreciate your input. It really went smoothly. [00:33:03] 
 
So even in those four scenarios I just did, I used three or four of the innate needs right off the board. But I did not change who I was, Laura. That's the key thing, is I'm not becoming a different person. I'm just choosing to love those people better with the words that I'm choosing to give life to. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is very life-giving to hear it in your own preferred language. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Exactly. I like that preferred language. I like that. 
 
Laura Dugger: Then you've also mentioned that beyond our dominant color, we have a secondary color. So how do we identify that secondary temperament? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: It will come up on the assessment. As you start really listening to yourself and people, you'll start seeing the difference in the temperaments. Like, I'm a blue-green. If I was sitting by a blue-red, it would only take a short amount of time for you to start seeing the differences between that person and me.  
 
Again, most likely it would be in the words that we use. [00:34:06] Where I might say, "I don't know, I think we should plan this lunch. But whatever restaurant you want to go to, I'm fine with." Where the blue might say, "Oh, I'm good planning this lunch, but I think we should go to XYZ restaurant." Do you see the difference? 
 
Laura Dugger: Yes. The blue-green first and then blue-red. 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Exactly. So again, if we would just listen to understand instead of listen to respond, you would get so much more information. 
 
Laura Dugger: Do you think that even this workbook is a tool for people to become better listeners? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I would hope so. I mean, that's really one of my goals because you have two ears and one mouth. Remember that when you were little? We have to even listen to what we're saying to ourself. Because if you're putting Ephesians 4:29, you have to think about that. Are you saying to yourself life words or are you saying to yourself death words? Are you really lifting yourself up according to your needs or are you really undermining yourself? 
 
One thing I want to make clear, the temperaments, there's two extrovert, there are two introvert, there's two task and there's two people. [00:35:12] When you do the assessment, you are a dominant and a secondary. If you were to look at the chart in the book, the yellow and the red are on the top from left to right, and the bottom from left to right would be the green and the blue. The top is extrovert, the bottom is introvert, the left are people-oriented, the right are task-oriented. When you do the assessment, you are either horizontal or vertical. You are usually never diagonal. 
 
Laura Dugger: With your secondary, do you ever see people that come in with a clear dominant, but then the colors right next to them are pretty equal? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: I do. If that happens, usually if you will concentrate on your dominant, you'll start to see a bigger spread between the secondary and the third temperament that's come up. If you don't see that, you might want to... and this is like 2.0. The third temperament may be something called masking, which means that there was trauma or abuse or grief. 85% of what I see, Laura, though, is caused by some kind of parenting. [00:36:22] That's causing you to not be your authentic self. 
 
We would want to kind of look at that and see why are we reaching over into that temperament instead of really being organic in the ones that we were wired for. Again, not necessarily intentional, but just that you may have two overlapping blue parents with a yellow child. All that child's hearing is, stop wiggling, you're too loud, quit moving, or you're embarrassing me. 
 
As those words come out, for a visual, they're kind of dulling the sparkle of that yellow child. Again, it's just that the blue parents aren't understanding the language of the yellow child. That's why, especially in parenting, this is so incredibly important. 
 
Laura Dugger: And I just want to make sure that I clarify to understand this correctly. So you said that's the third temperament. So that would be if somebody, let's use that example, that they have two blue parents, they're yellow, so how would their test results present? [00:37:25] 
 
Kathleen Edelman: It may look like they're very dominant yellow. They come in and they have a green secondary, but right on the tails of that green secondary is a very strong blue. We would have to go, hmm, why is that there? What is causing that to be there? Because it's really not innate to a yellow to have a high blue like that. 
 
Laura Dugger: Okay, that makes so much sense. What if it's somebody that is a yellow and a split between green and red? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: That's somewhere where we would really just have to find out... focusing on the dominant, you would see the true secondary start to surface. And which one starts to get wobbly. Or again, a lot of times, Laura, this is a miscommunication in descriptive words. So people will circle certain words in the assessment. They're not necessarily thinking about themselves on their very best day. They might be thinking of themselves situationally, instead of just their core motivator and they're circling something that may be a confusing descriptive word between a red and a green. [00:38:37] 
 
What I mean by that is I have people come in my office and they're like, Oh, my son's a red. He's angry and he really wants his way all the time. Then I meet the child and they're really very green. Greens are the most stubborn and by far the most strong-willed on the board. But see, we've been told and we're getting mixed up in the personality stuff that we're assigning that person to a red just because of the strong will and the stubbornness. See, this is why knowing these temperaments to the core, then you can just start having discernment about really what is which temperament. 
 
Greens really only do things they're interested in or they're absolutely responsible for. Everything else, they really have no sense of urgency about. 
 
Laura Dugger: Sometimes are greens... do they come across as more direct than reds if it is their stubborn streak? 
 
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. If they're interested in it, they can be very stubborn. And they'll know everything about it and they can even come across as kind of a know-it-all. And especially where you also see the stubbornness is if it's something they're not interested in and you are pushing them. [00:39:48] 
 
A green can take pushing for a very long time. But when they're pushed into a corner, they're going to do one of two things. They're going to fight or they're going to flee. And usually they'll flee. They'll flee the room. They'll flee the team. They'll flee the marriage. They'll flee the work.
 
But if they decide to fight, Laura, they can make a choleric look like a kitten because it is so volatile. And a lot of times it looks like it comes out of nowhere, like you're kind, quiet little girl, and all of a sudden she explodes. And you're like, Where did that come from? Well, she's been pushed and pushed and pushed till she can't be pushed anymore. 
 
And it could have been something that happened six months ago. Whereas if she was red, you would know about it immediately. They don't wait six months to tell you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is so helpful. All right, friends, after Kathleen and I recorded, we realized that we had way too much information to pack into one episode. So we're going to pause this conversation here and hope that you're going to join us again tomorrow. 
 
You don't want to miss part two, because that's where Kathleen is going to teach us how to apply this knowledge on temperaments to improve our parenting and marriage relationships. We look forward to seeing you back tomorrow. [00:41:04] 
 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:42:10] 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:43:12] 
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:44:10] 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

71 Deep Dive into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

71. Deep Dive into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Psalm 139:13+14 (NIV) “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
 
Beth McCord is the founder of Your Enneagram Coach. She has been an Enneagram speaker, coach and teacher for over 15 years. Beth is passionate about coming alongside individuals and helping them re-write their story, allowing them to see that lasting change, meaningful relationships, and a life of deep purpose is possible. This passion is what drove her to create this community, a safe place for individuals to explore the Enneagram. Beth is now leading the industry in simplifying the deep truths of the Enneagram from a Biblical perspective. Beth's passion is to make the Enneagram accessible for everyone, anywhere, so they can experience the transformation they long for. This includes one-on-one coaching, in-person events and workshops and online courses. She also offers training and support for those interested in becoming an Enneagram coach. At home, Beth's favorite hobbies are studying and producing helpful Enneagram resources, fly fishing, and driving through the beautiful hillsides of Tennessee with her family. Beth lives outside of Nashville and has been married to her best friend, Jeff, for 22 years (Type 6, Loyal Guardian). They have two teenage children (a Type 6, Loyal Guardian and a Type 2, Supportive Advisor). Combining the gospel and the Enneagram has been instrumental in Beth and Jeff's marriage and parenting.
Beth’s Website
Connect with Beth on Instagram @yourenneagramcoach
Beth’s Free assessment
 
Beth is offering The Savvy Sauce listeners $10 off either Discovering You or Exploring You when  you use the code: 10OFF.  The Discovering You course is also INSIDE Exploring You so we encourage that option!
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
I am just thrilled to welcome back a returning guest, Beth McCord. Beth is an Enneagram coach and she's returning today to take a deeper dive into a few more nuances of the Enneagram. I hope this episode helps you understand yourself and others in your life a little bit better. 
 
Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome back to the Savvy Sauce, Beth. 
 
Beth McCord: Yeah, thanks for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, if anybody missed our previous episode, will you share a bit about yourself and your work? 
 
Beth McCord: Yes. My name is Beth McCord. I live in Nashville, Tennessee. Been married for 24 years to my husband, Jeff. We have 2 kids, a 20-year-old son and an 18-year-old daughter. I have been studying the Enneagram for about 17, 18 years now. [00:01:28] 
 
But as a good old 9, type 9, for those that have learned about the Enneagram, I hid most of the time and maybe shared it with a few people along the way until I really felt God waking me up and calling me out to do what I'm doing now, which is a business called Your Enneagram Coach, where I coach others, but also teach others how to become Enneagram coaches, so that others can be free from self-condemnation, fear, and shame, and instead experience and know Christ's unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom that He offers us. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, I know I'm one of many who are very grateful that you stepped out into the light to do all of that. In a previous episode, we did a rundown of all the numbers and personalities. So listeners should definitely start there. But now if you've already finished that episode, Beth, you had mentioned that each number can be in a healthy or unhealthy state. 
 
Beth McCord: Yes. 
 
Laura Dugger: So now that we know the background of each number, will you teach us more about lines and how each number appears when the person is both in a healthy and unhealthy place? [00:02:37] 
 
Beth McCord: Yeah. So when someone looks at the symbol, and I'm sure you'll have it in your show notes, there is a 9-pointed geometric figure. So it looks like a 9-pointed star, basically. Each personality type is connected to 2 other personality types with lines. 
 
You can think of these lines as paths: paths of stress, paths of growing. So I'm a type 9, and I am connected to both 3 and 6. So I can go to both the healthy side of 3 and 6, and all the way down to the unhealthy of 3 and 6, and anywhere in between. 
 
But what I teach in my Discovering You course, which is the best place to start, is that you typically move towards one of them when you're under stress, and you move to it in a very specific way. And this is what you're going to act like around most people when you're under stress. 
 
And then there's the other number where when you start to really grow, you're going to move towards the healthy attributes of that number. Now, again, you can utilize both healthy all the way to unhealthy on both. [00:03:38] But there's a little bit more complexity to that that I teach the people that want to be coaches and when people go through my Exploring You course. I go into that in much more detail. 
 
But just for now the under stress someone like me who's easygoing, laid-back, like everything's gonna be fine, well, when I become stressed I move to the average to the unhealthy parts of 6 now. That doesn't mean I become a 6 but I take on the attributes, and all of a sudden that easy-going laid-back positive person becomes irritable, testy, worried, anxious, my mind's racing. I'm just not that pleasant to be around. Let's just say. 
 
But the great thing about it is now that I know that this is what I do and why I do it, not only can I be more aware of, Oh, I'm under stress right now, my family can know it as well. We can all kind of go, Hey, is everything okay? Like, is there anything you need? They don't have to take it so personally. And I can actually see that maybe I'm drowning and I need help versus, why are you acting that way? So it can be really beneficial. [00:04:37] 
 
But when I'm growing, us 9s who kind of think we don't matter, we don't have much to offer, if I move towards the healthy attributes of type 3, I'll learn to have self-confidence, to assert myself, to set goals, and to pursue the calling that God has set out for me. So then when my family sees that, let's say for them doing that is like breathing air, they know for me, that's really hard.
 
So now they know how to cheer me on because for me, that's growth. So that's what we want to do with our spouses, our friends, our children is to know them well enough to know how to lift them up in grace and forgiveness and support when they're not doing well, but also then how to cheer them on when they're growing, because growth is so, so hard. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to have examples like that. Do you mind sharing what those lines and illustrations would look like? 
 
Beth McCord: Absolutely, yeah. The Type 1, when they're under stress, they're going to take on attributes of the average to unhealthy parts of 4, where they're going to turn this resentment, anger that they have of wanting everything to be perfect inward, and they can become depressed and kind of withdrawn and feel like people don't understand them. [00:05:50] 
 
When the Type 1 is growing, they're going to move to the healthy attributes of the Type 7, where this Type 1 who everything must be perfect and their inner critic is beating them up inside all of a sudden experiences a child-likeness, grace, freedom, and fun. 
 
The Type 2, when they're under stress, they're going to move to the average, the unhealthy parts of 8, where they're going to become more demanding, controlling, insistent, and that other people do what they say. Now, when they're doing really well, they're going to move to the healthy side of Type 4, where the 2 who's always focusing on everyone else finally realized that they have to care for themselves in order to truly give to others in a way that's selfless. So we want the 4s to understand their emotions and their needs and to take good care of themselves. 
 
The 3, when the 3 is under stress, they're going to move to the average unhealthy parts of 9, where this driven 3 suddenly becomes kind of apathetic, lazy, withdrawn. And they kind of numb out with, it could be video games, shopping, eating, you name it, whatever it is for them, some way for them to check out. [00:07:00] 
 
For the 3 to grow, we want them to move to the healthy side of 6, where it's no longer all about me, look at me, it's now about us. And it's about helping us become the best that we can be. 
 
The Type 4, when they're under stress, they're going to move to the average, the unhealthy parts of 2, where they're going to start feeling possessive of others. But at the same time, what you'll see is they'll do kind of a push-pull. They will see that others aren't as ideal as they thought. So they'll start pushing them away, but they get really afraid that they push them too far and they start to become 2-ish where they become possessive and clingy and manipulative to bring that relationship back to them. And so you'll see this push and pull dynamic. 
 
But when a 4 is doing really well, they're going to move to the healthy side of Type 1, where they're going to become grounded and principled and do more procedures to do what's right. And they'll find that actually sets them free. 
 
The Type 5, when they're under stress, they're going to move to the average, the unhealthy parts of 7. [00:08:01] So the 5 can isolate themselves for a long time and then they kind of come out into the world and around people and become very impulsive, take on new projects impulsively, I guess. They can become scattered, kind of hyperactive. 
 
But when a 5 is healthy, they're going to move to the healthy parts of 8. Where the 5 typically feels like they don't have enough knowledge to competently move forward in something, they move towards that healthy space of 8 and they competently move forward in something like, I have enough information to do this. 
 
The6, when they're under stress, they're going to move to the average, the unhealthy parts of 3, where they're going to become a little bit more arrogant. The arrogancy here is more like, I told you guys all the hundred things that could go wrong and you didn't listen to me and therefore this is happening. So that kind of arrogancy. 
 
But they also become concerned about failure. And so they probably won't take on new projects if failure is a possibility. And they do become more concerned about their image and what people think of them. [00:09:04] 
 
Now when a 6 is doing really well, this racing mind of a 6 of all worst-case possibilities slows down, gets more calm, and is still operating and going for it, but it's at a much more peaceful speed and rate so they can enjoy life more. 
 
Now the 7s, when they're struggling and under stress, they're going to move to the average, the unhealthy parts of 1, where they're going to become more critical, perfectionistic, and demand others do what is right. When a 7 is growing, they're going to move to the healthy parts of Type 5, where instead of always fleeing outward to adventure and fun. They're going to come inward and to focus on their internal world and to take care of the things that need to be taken care of internally. 
 
Now when an 8 is struggling, they're going to move to the average to unhealthy parts of 5. And this is where they all of a sudden get isolated because they're on the defense and they're stressed. [00:10:04] So they pull back and isolate and gain more knowledge to be on the offense. 
 
Now, when an 8 is doing really well, they're that snowplow I was talking about, where they're plowing paths for people. So they see everyone has needs, like a 2, they're moving to the healthy part of 2, and they see people's needs, but they tell everyone, hey, get behind me, I will pave the path for you. And they do an excellent job. 
 
Then last but not least, as 9s, and I kind of said this, when we're under stress, we become worried, anxious, testy. And then when we're growing, we become assertive, confident, and develop ourselves. And there you go. 
 
Laura Dugger: Man, you are so succinct. That was so impressive. 
 
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Laura Dugger: Each number has a wing. So will you describe each number's wings and even give an example of what each may look like? 
 
Beth McCord: Sure. The wings are the 2 numbers on either side of your main type. For instance, the Type 1, they have wings of 9 and 2, not any of the other numbers. The wings are just directly next to your main type. Think of this as salt and pepper. So if you are a filet mignon, beautiful filet mignon, we want to season your steak in a way that enhances or draws out your best attributes. And that's what we want our wings to do. 
 
So we access and utilize parts of the numbers next to us that can enhance us. At the same time, when we use those numbers in an unhealthy way, it's going to not help us. Think of that as overseasoning your steak and ruining it, you know. So we want to use those qualities of the types next to us in ways that really help us. [00:13:19] 
 
Now, typically people lean towards one number more than the other, but we use both of them to varying degrees. So there's no right and wrong, you should have more of this, less of that. It's more just what is. Me as a 9, my wings are 8 and 1. And it's good for me to learn what does it look like to use the 8 in a healthy way? What does it look like to use the 1 in a healthy way? And definitely, what does it look like when I'm using it in an unhealthy way? 
 
For me, as a 9, I lean more towards the type 8 in my everyday life and I lean towards 1 more in my work. So in work, I'm more detailed and I want things precise and crisp and clean. But in my everyday life, I use a lot of 8. I can be more assertive than most 9s. I can really get upset when there's an injustice. And that can be good or not so good, depending on how I'm using it. So I can kind of run through real quick all the things very briefly, obviously. [00:14:19] 
 
But the 1 with a 9 wing is the idealist. They tend to be a little bit more detached and analytical and withdrawn than the Type 1 with a 2 wing. They're going to be the advocate. And they're going to be a little bit warmer relationally, but they can also be critical and vocal and more controlling. 
 
So you're taking the main type... and they're not changing. Those core motivations we talked about in the other episode. It's that we're using that salt and pepper. We're either enhancing or maybe not, depending on how well we use it. 
 
Now, the type 2, their wings are one and 3. The 2 with a 1 wing is the servant. They tend to be more self-controlled with their emotions, objective, and serious. But the 2 with a 3 wing, they're more of a host or hostess and they're outgoing, they're sociable, self-assured, pretty dynamic, and they don't mind the spotlight. 
 
So the 3, they have wings 2 and 4. The 3 with a 2 wing is the star. They have great interpersonal skills, charming, likable, adaptable, engaging. The 3 with the 4 wing is the professional, and they're a little bit more pulled back, private, quiet, and they want more recognition. And they're gonna feel more emotions than the 3 with the 2 wing. [00:15:35] 
 
The 4, they have wings 3 and 5. The 4 with the 3 wing is the aristocrat and they have a more refined taste, emotionally, like vivid and extroverted, upbeat and goal oriented. The 4 with the 5 wing is called the bohemian. They have more intellectual depth and creativity, originality, introverted, and more isolated. 
 
The type 5 wings are 4 and 6. The 5 of the 4 wing is called the iconoclasts. They are more emotionally vibrant, creative, exuberant as a 5. They're still more of the withdrawn type, but they're going to show their creativity and emotions more. 
 
The 5 with the 6 wing is the problem solver. They are going to have a lot more intellectual depth and research. They tend to gravitate towards the sciences more. Then the 6 has wings 5 and 7. So the 6 of the 5 wing is called the defender. They're more organized, engaging with others, perceptual, and they want more knowledge and research. [00:16:44] The 6 with a 7 wing is called the buddy. They're very engaging, supportive, witty, sociable, and love to have a great time with others. 
 
Now, the 7 has the 6 and the 8 wing, so the 7 with the 6 wing is called the entertainer. They're more outgoing, creative, silly, playful. They do care more about what others think, tend to be much more loyal and committed, and they enjoy experiencing things with others. 
 
Now, the 7 with the 8 wing is called the realist. And they're going to be very assertive, confident, intense energy, very ambitious, quick minds, and they're not going to be as thoughtful of others as the 6 wing. So they almost look 8-ish. Actually, 7s with 8 wings and 8s with 7 wings have a really hard time figuring out which one is in the lead. 
 
The 8 has wings of 7 and 9. The 8 with a 7 wing is the Maverick, and they are much more blunt, intense, demanding, insistent that others do what they say, quick, and very assertive. The 8 with a 9 wing are much more steady, patient, compassionate, tender, soft-hearted. So they do hold their aggressive side until it's needed. [00:18:00] They're not going to overtly show it, but if it's needed, they have no problem doing what needs to be done. 
 
Then last but not least, the 9s, the 9 with a 1 wing, and the 8 wing. The 9 with a 1 wing is called the Dreamer. They're more idealistic, principled, cerebral, and they want justice and fairness and to do what's right. The 9 with an 8 wing, which is me, and it's a little... it's like 2 opposites together. You've got a person who's sociable, engaging, encouraging, expressive, independent. and assertive, but they also love the comforts that a 9 wants. And there's the wings. 
 
Laura Dugger: Okay. And the comforts that a 9 wants, could you give examples? 
 
Beth McCord: Oh yeah. Any kind of routine, comfy clothes, like I sit in a very comfy chair for work. We just love being comfortable. We don't want to basically be uncomfortable or stretch too far, which kind of goes in with the sloth of the 9. You know, sometimes you have to stretch yourselves and do things that we don't necessarily want to do. And it can be a good thing. [00:19:05] 
 
Laura Dugger: I am just so glad that you're an Enneagram coach because there are still so many levels to this personality tool. One more layer of the Enneagram is triads. What are triads and how do they help us better understand our personality? 
 
Beth McCord: The triads are the 3 centers of intelligence. You have the head or the thinking, the heart or emotions, and the gut, or like a gut instinct. The triads, kind of hence the name, there's 3 types in each of these 3 sections, which equals the 9 types. Each type has a dominant triad. Now we use all 3, but it has a dominant triad and a dominant instinctual center. 
 
The types 8s, 9s, and 1s are in the gut instinct triad and they have similar assets and liabilities surrounding their gut instincts. So, they have a knowing. You know, it's really hard with the gut instincts because, you know, we talk about in the English language, well, I thought about this or I feel this. But with the gut instinct, it's like, uh, I don't really know what to tell you. I just have a gut instinct. Like there's not really language around it. [00:20:23] 
 
So the 8s are the gut triad. Their emotional imbalance or struggle has to do with anger. Now the 9s and the ones will say, "What? I'm not angry. I don't have anger." Well, the 9 suppress their anger because it's uncomfortable, and then the 1s repress it and it comes out sideways as criticism and judgmentalness because being angry would be being bad. 
 
So what happens is all 3 of these want justice. The 8s will show their anger viscerally and quickly. If they see an injustice, you're going to know about it immediately. It's not ready, aim, fire. It's fire. So it's kind of like a Diet Coke that you put a Mento in and then it's just boosh. It's really fast and erupts. 
 
The 9 is like a Diet Coke that has a lid on it and people in the world and circumstances are shaking it up and there's all this tension built up inside. The 9 is like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to erupt and I can't, so I have to like somehow get away. So we will withdraw, numb out, get away because we're trying to calm that down because we're so afraid we're going to explode in some form or fashion and hurt our relationships. [00:21:26] And sometimes we do explode, and then it calms down pretty quickly. But that's pretty rare. 
 
Then the ones is like a Diet Coke with the lid cap slightly off, but still on. And when things are shaking it up, like the imperfections of the world, it spews outward with criticism and nitpickiness. So that's the gut triad. 
 
The heart triad with the feelings is the 2s, 3s, and 4s. They struggle with shame and a desire for a very specific identity. So the 2s are feeling everyone's feelings and needs. They struggle with feeling rejected. So they want to know people's needs and feelings so that they can find the one person that's in most need and come through for them with some sort of help so that they can overcome the feeling of rejection by being wanted and needed. 
 
The 3s, they struggle with shame and thinking that they have no value or worth because they didn't accomplish enough. Or what do people think? So they overcome this with a certain image of being the most successful and admirable person. [00:22:30] 
 
Then the 4s, they struggle with shame and thinking that there's something defective and flawed in them. And so they want to overcome this by having the most authentic, special, unique image that others are drawn to and will love. 
 
Then the last category, the last triad is the thinking. And this is 5, 6, and 7s. They struggle with anxiety and they desire security. Now the 5's anxiety is that they feel that they don't know enough information to go out in the world and to do. So they think they have to gather a bunch of information and they think that information is going to bring them security, but it doesn't because it's the never-ending process, right? There's never enough information. So they'll constantly feel this anxiety until they stop and realize they have enough to move forward. 
 
The 6s struggle with anxiety from a possible worst-case scenario, predictability mindset. They're scanning the horizon for what could go wrong. And that creates your typical anxiety that we think of. They think that if they can get enough knowledge and advice and wisdom from outside resources, that they'll have the right decisions to make, which will ensure their security. [00:23:45] But as we all know, we don't know what's going to happen and there's a plethora of possibilities. And so there's never that security if we rely just on ourselves. 
 
The 7s struggle with anxiety from an internal perspective. They do have internal anxieties and fears, but that is painful for them and they don't want any pain or internal conflict happening anxiety. So they go out into the world to find stimulation, excitement, fun, because that to them brings them a sense of security. 
 
But, as we know, then if you don't deal with the inner parts of us, it can build and build and build and actually harm them more. So those are the triads.
 
Laura Dugger: Those are so interesting, too, because then is there a more positive solution with.. kind of with all of them, but let's start with the 9. When the Diet Coke, you said it's like it's been shaken all day, instead of erupting, what is the best way for them? [00:24:47] 
 
Beth McCord: Absolutely. Yeah. So like for myself, it's taken a long time to kind of at least figure it out, but that's no surprise as a 9. It's like we live in a fog and it takes me a long time to figure things out. But once I do, I'm like, "Oh, this makes sense." But for me, I never really realized that I was feeling this much tension.
 
Like with my family, my husband and daughter and son, they can kind of be talking and bantering back and forth and it might be a playful tension for them. But for me, it feels horrible. I feel all shooken up inside. What are they getting in conflict? Are they upset with one another? Is everyone okay? Is someone's feelings hurt? Like I'm constantly thinking all of this tension stuff. And I just want to say, Everyone, stop, like, just speak nicely. And they're thinking, we're just having fun, you know, but to me, it's not fun. 
 
So with that kind of being shooken up inside, whether it's playful or real tension or real conflict, I can either shut down or explode. But what I have to now recognize is the feeling, the sensation this has. And it really does feel like that pressure and I typically will withdraw or retreat or shut down in fear that I can't fix it, or if I try to fix it, or if I say something, I'll bring more harm to the relationship or bring more tension or conflict. [00:26:07] So I might shut down or I might physically get up and leave. Well, that doesn't necessarily help either. 
 
So by letting my family know how it feels in me and what's going on and verbalizing that, not in a demanding way, but in a way of asking, "Hey, this is kind of hard for me. And if you guys want to continue this, because I can see that you're actually having fun, it just doesn't feel fun to me, I'm happy to go, you know, watch TV in the other room or put earbuds in or something like that. But otherwise, it'd be awesome if we can change how we're talking so that it doesn't feel so, you know, sarcastic or tension for me. That's sometimes how I have to navigate it. Sometimes it's just me. 
 
For instance, here's a great example. When my kids were little, my husband would wrestle with them on the floor and tickle them. They're laughing and hollering. Well, my 9 internal world just was like, Please stop. You know, this is too much. But my eyes could see this is a beautiful thing. This is great. So I recognize in those situations, that's something I have to deal with. I don't have to control others, you know. [00:27:14] 
 
So that's kind of how someone can start to work with their own particular strengths and weaknesses. But at the same time, it's a strength that I have this ability because if I might feel tension in a room that no one else is realizing is there, and I might be able to bring understanding where no one else can, because I can feel it and I can sense it and I know what others need, but will I speak up is the thing. And as a 9, to do it in a healthy way is really important. 
 
Laura Dugger: I'm so curious with the 7, because as a 7, I think it's very easy for me to be in denial. So I was thinking, huh, internal anxiety. I can't think of how to even recognize that. Or what would you recommend as a healthy way to process that if it's not seeking external stimulation? 
 
Beth McCord: So for 7s, anything that is negative, painful, not positive, productive, you know, like all of those things drive us up and crazy and they don't want to sit there. They don't want to talk about it or deal with it. Like, let's just move on. Let's think of it positive. Let's reframe. Let's find a new solution. [00:28:18] 
 
But sometimes there are things that really do need to be thought through or dealt with. And a big one would be death and sorrow and grief. Not only should they spend the time to truly grieve and process, but to not force others to get over it quickly, because it would be uncomfortable for a 7 to allow someone to really go there with them in the presence, because they don't know what to do with it. You know, it's scary. It's painful. It's hard. It's everything that they fear. 
 
Now, it doesn't mean that the 7 is insensitive or that they don't care. They just don't know what to do with that hard space. So, for them, it's taking baby steps and first being in the present moment and recognizing how their personality is screaming at them to think positive and reframe, oh, it's going to be great. 
 
A big one that Christians do when someone dies is, well, at least they're in a better place. You know, it's like, okay, that doesn't help the person who just lost their husband or their child. But to be there with them and to empathize and to feel their sorrow, just like Christ did with others really shows a Christ-like demonstration. [00:29:28] And it is hard, and it is painful, but that is the better place to be. 
 
Now, we love 7s because you do bring the positive, so we do need that, but not when it's inappropriate or unwarranted. Does that make sense? 
 
Laura Dugger: That totally makes sense. And let's just touch on one other of the triads. Let's do a 2. What would that healthy process look like for them? 
 
Beth McCord: So when a 2s walk into a room, they're going to instantly know the feelings of the room and they're going to know who has the most need, whether emotionally or physically. The personality is going to be insistent that they come through, one, because if they don't come through, they're being selfish and bad and they will be then unloved, which is their greatest fear. 
 
So then the personality is convincing them that they must insert their help with that person, one, so they can get appreciation and gratitude and they can overcome this sensation of being rejected and unlovable. [00:30:27] 
 
For the 2s, we would want them to recognize they are not called to save, preserve, and protect the world. That is God's responsibility. And when they enter a room and they see that there are needs, they have to first align their heart with God in, one, recognizing what are their needs. And have they taken care of themselves enough to give of themselves from a selfless standpoint versus strings attached of, oh, I hope they say thank you, or I'm going to need them to say thank you? I need them to show me my value in helping. 
 
And so if they're not quite there, for them to just pull back and trust and pray for the person and realize, It is not ultimately my responsibility to help and come through for that person. Christ knows their needs. My heart is not in the right place. Therefore, I'm going to ask the Lord to put my heart in the right place if He wants me to be the person to serve. And if my heart's not in the right place, I will wait patiently for that to change. And then maybe God will bring someone else into the mix and serve that person. But it doesn't have to be me, because Christ did not serve every single person on the planet when He was here, right? He took time for himself with the Lord to replenish Himself, to refresh Himself, and to take care of His human body. [00:31:47] 
 
So Christ could, because He was fully God, be with a thousand people every day, 24-7, and healing every single one. But He didn't. So for the 2s to recognize, let God be God. And when God directs them to serve, make sure their heart and their self-care is in the right place to selflessly do it. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. Can I ask you a favor? If you've enjoyed listening to The Savvy Sauce for free and have benefited in any way, would you consider becoming a patron? For as little as $5 per month, you gain exclusive access to bonus episodes every month, such as a conversation on healthy relationships with the hilarious and practical Sue Heimer, or our Patreon-only episode on living a transformational life with author and counselor Brent Hanson. 
 
Not only is this a great deal for you, but it's a great deal for the future of The Savvy Sauce as well. If every listener even gave $1 per month, it would completely offset all of our costs to produce future episodes. [00:32:49] We are humbled by the generosity of those already contributing. A gift of any amount is greatly appreciated. We hope you join us today by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our Patreon tab. 
 
With all of these connections, the lines and wings and triads, how many numbers do we actually operate out of? 
 
Beth McCord: Well, that is a good question. It's kind of in some sense infinite because we're not even touching on what's called the instinctual subtypes, which adds 3 more layers to every type. There's also something called the tritype, which is another 27 subtypes. So it just really can go on and on. 
 
For instance, I am a type 9, 9 with an 8 wing. I am asexual, which is also called 1 to 1. The reason why they use that term is I want more intimacy with connectivity and closeness in relationship with people. And then my tritype is a 9, 3, 6. So, it just kind of goes on and on, and so it can get deeper and deeper and more nuanced. [00:33:59]
 
That's what makes it fun because... I mean, it makes it complicated, but it makes it fun because we are unique. We are different. We are special. And then we have our own stories that are in the mix of all of that in our relationship. So, that's why I love this personality typology is that it's not just, oh yeah, you're a color this or color that. I mean, it's this infinite array of colors and possibilities and health and unhealth, etc, etc. 
 
I really just encourage people to first learn the basics through the Discovering You course, then dive into your Exploring You course, where I take you further in, going over some of the things that we went over today, but for your type and how to specifically grow in the gospel. 
 
Then if you're really wanting to know more, I have a course called Becoming an Enneagram Coach. This is for anyone that wants a deeper dive or anyone that wants to use it with other people. So it doesn't have to be a coach. You could be a counselor, pastor, mentor, anyone that wants to help others transform. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Because you do such an amazing job simplifying the Enneagram for us, and I really appreciate that you've got these courses available online. [00:35:11] For all you listeners, Beth has made it available. 
 
When you are purchasing one of those courses, you can use the code 10OFF, and it's all one word, and you will get $10 off one of those courses because, like we mentioned, we have not even scratched the surface of all the nuances of the Enneagram. 
 
But we only have time for one more question. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. So, Beth, we would love to hear, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Beth McCord: If all the personalities have a different colored lens, what is yours? How do you see the world? What colored lens are you looking through? And then how can you describe this for others in a non-reactive way, but a proactive way? 
 
So when you're talking to a friend, a coworker, a spouse, a child, how can you express your heart, your intentions, your motives in a way that is not threatening to others, blaming, controlling, demanding? But how can you express what your needs are in a way that helps others to truly see you? [00:36:22] But also then how can you put on their glasses? How can you see their world from their perspective? That's what I would really encourage everyone to do. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. That's a great place to end today. Beth, really, your knowledge on all these topics is just incredible. I'm so overwhelmed with gratitude just that you took all of these years of study and translated them into our few minutes together today. So thanks for joining us. 
 
Beth McCord: Yeah, thank you. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:37:25] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:38:25] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:39:27] 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

70 Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright

70. Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Matthew 25:21 (NIV) “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’"
 
Christy Wright is the #1 national best-selling author of Business Boutique, host of the Business Boutique Podcast, a Certified Business Coach and a Ramsey Personality with a passion for equipping women with the knowledge and steps they need to successfully run and grow a business. Since joining Ramsey Solutions in 2009, she has spoken to thousands across the country at women’s conferences, national business conferences, Fortune 500 companies and her own sold-out live events. You can follow Wright on Twitter and Instagram @ChristyBWright and online at christywright.com or facebook.com/OfficialChristyWright.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Christy Wright’s Business Boutique Website
Business Boutique by Christy Wright
Business Boutique Podcast with Christy Wright
You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded) by Cynthia Tobias
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:01]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:18]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
 
Christy Wright is our guest today, and she is a mother, wife, business leader, and author. She's going to help you break through barriers in your own business by sharing practical applications she's learned through working for Dave Ramsey and writing her book, Business Boutique. Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Christy. 
 
Christy Wright: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited about this. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by sharing briefly how you got to where you are today? 
 
Christy Wright: I'll tell you this, you know, where I am today and what I'm doing today in my current season of life with two kids and a baby on the way and running the Business Boutique is really a culmination of a lot of different patterns I feel like I've observed in my life. You know, it's easy to be in a season where you feel like that season doesn't have a lot of purpose, but I have found that God uses everything for His purpose. 
 
And so there's been a real pattern in my life from being raised by a single mom that started a business when I was six months old to being raised in a business to pursuing a degree in business myself and then becoming a certified business coach and having my own side businesses and all of these things kind of coming together for such a time as this. [00:01:39]  
 
Now I just feel that I'm in a season of really helping women turn their dreams and ideas and goals into action. So whatever that looks like, whatever their version of success is, whether it's a little side business or a little Etsy shop, you know, like they say, or they want to run a big business, a multi-million dollar business and build a team, I really think that I'm uniquely positioned to come alongside them and give them the encouragement to go for it, but also the practical steps that they can follow that will give them a plan to win. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, you're a great coach and speaker, and everybody probably knows that your resource is called Business Boutique, and I'd love to just cover a few of those themes from your book. So first, will you explain how fear factors into us pursuing our business idea or passion? 
 
Christy Wright: Sure. Well, this is a major barrier for people. I think a lot of people think, Oh, I can't go into business or start my business because there's already too many people doing what I want to do or I don't have a business background or I don't have, you know, a ton of money or a ton of time or (fill in the blank). [00:02:39] 
 
But really, the root of all of that is fear. To be honest, Laura, you know, when you put yourself out there in business, when you put yourself out there online, when you make a product, when you sell your service, when you put yourself out there in the world, it's vulnerable. You're putting yourself out there to be rejected and that can be a really scary process. And you have a lot of questions. You start to have the imposter syndrome. Who are you to do this? What will people think? You know, there's already someone doing it. They're doing it better and faster and cheaper. You know, there's someone with more money or more talent or more time than you and, you know, all these fears creep in. And that voice of fear gets really loud. So I think that this is a major barrier. 
 
But what's interesting is that you have to be able to tackle the fear if you're going to build your business. Because I can give people steps and plans and tools all day long, but if they're still scared, they're going to stay stuck. 
 
So, part of my heart behind Business Boutique, whether it's at our event, or through our podcast, or through my book, or through my academy, wherever they get help, I want to give them not only the information they need to win, but I want to give them the encouragement to get past the fear to be able to win. Because you need both. [00:03:45] You need the information, but you also need the inspiration to be able to go for it. 
 
Laura Dugger: And when those people do get inspired, do you find that they may not have totally overcome their fear, but they're just going to do it scared? 
 
Christy Wright: Oh, yeah. And what's really funny is they will write me all the time. They're like, "I'm doing it. I'm doing it scared. It's become this tribal language. I'm doing it, you know, doing it scared. I can't believe I did it." And what's amazing about this whole process is, Laura, I didn't do anything. I didn't get in their business. I didn't call that client or do that Facebook live for them. I didn't do any of the hard work for them, they did it, but they are amazing themselves. 
 
Like, I can't believe I'm doing this. I can't believe I did my first speaking event. I can't believe I made my first dollar. I can't believe I made my first, you know, $100,000 or whatever it is. And it's really cool to see them realizing the potential in themselves where they're blowing their own minds. They're doing things they didn't know that they could do But it's not because they became fearless and they just all of a sudden the fear was removed. They just decided to do it anyway, despite the fear. [00:04:48] They decided to do it while they're scared. 
 
That can be a really powerful practice and practical application for anyone listening because if you wait until you're not scared to do something, you'll never do it. The fear doesn't go away oftentimes. Instead, you do it while you're scared. 
 
But that's what's so beautiful because nothing will silence your fear of doing the thing like doing the thing. So go do the thing. You know, I tell people all the time, the antidote to fear is action. So take action, do the thing, and then you look up one day and you're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm doing it. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Take action. Do you have any other helpful truths or practical applications to use as we specifically combat those fears to launch ourselves forward? 
 
Christy Wright: Yeah. I would say "truth". I love how you said that, a helpful truth. I think that one of the things that we need to understand about fear, a truth we need to understand, an absolute, this is not Christy Wright's opinion, this is an absolute, is that fear is normal. [00:05:46] 
 
Now, Laura, I'll tell you for years I used to think that fear was a bad sign, like it was a red flag, turn back now. If I was supposed to do this thing, fill in the blank with whatever it was, then I wouldn't be scared. I would be super confident, super excited. I would have a foolproof plan. I would just be ready to run into the thing. But that's not how it works in life. 
 
When you are pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, trying something new you've never done before, you will be scared. Not maybe. Not possibly. You will definitely be scared. Why? Because you've never done it before. Of course, you're scared. This is new. It's unknown. There's a risk. 
 
But if we can acknowledge that fear is normal, it's not a bad sign, it doesn't mean that God is telling us to turn back, that we can't do it. In fact, I have found that the opposite is usually true. It means that this thing matters deeply. It means there's something on the line. 
 
And if we want to get super spiritual about it, it means the enemy has a target on your back because God's about to use you in big ways. So, of course, he's going to torment you with fear and lies and who are you to do this and all that. But if we just realize this is a normal part of the journey, then we don't have to wait until we're not scared. Instead, we just do it scared. [00:06:53] 
 
And what's amazing is we learn a lot about ourself in doing that, and we learn a lot about God showing up and His faithfulness in that process. But if you look at Scripture, it says again and again, fear not, fear not, fear not, because God knew we would be scared. And when He's calling you to something big and new, it's probably going to be big and new and risky and exciting. And that feels scary. So it's so normal. 
 
If you can realize it's normal, it's not a bad sign, then that doesn't have to hold you back anymore because you realize fear is not a sign you're doing something bad. It's a sign you're doing something bold. And that's a good thing. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, yes and amen. Christy, I love it. Well, we've talked about fear, but let's also talk about overwhelm. So what is the best thing that we can do to get over the wall of being overwhelmed? 
 
Christy Wright: Well, I'll tell you, I have a million ideas a minute and I've got checklist and to-do list. I was just up last night at 2 a.m. I had to get up to go to the bathroom because I'm pregnant with my third child and I came back to bed and my mind just started running. I was like, Oh, I'm never going to go back to sleep because once my mind starts going, it's like there's no reigning it in. [00:07:54] 
 
But I love the quote from David Allen in his book. He says, "The mind is created for having ideas, not holding them." And it's when we try to hold ideas that we feel very overwhelmed. It feels very big. It feels unknown. Our brain is working so hard to remember all these things. And a very tactical, simple solution is to write it down. You have an idea, write it down. You have a task you need to add to your to-do list, write it down. You have something you want to handle tomorrow, a problem you need to deal with, write it down. 
 
The moment you write it down, something very powerful happens. You take all the work off your brain. You take all the overwhelm and all the unknown and it feels big and I'm working so hard to remember, remember, remember, and don't forget it. You put it on a piece of paper, you put it on your notes app on your phone and now, it's secure. It's safe. It's captured. It will not be forgotten. You can handle that later. You can see on paper, on purpose, here's exactly what needs to happen, here's the steps I need to take, or the tasks I need to complete. [00:08:54] And it just reduces the overwhelm of your brain working so hard to remember these things. 
 
I use running examples all the time. My team gives me a hard time, but it really is like running a marathon. If you think, how in the world would someone run 26.2 miles? Or how would someone run a half marathon of 13.1 miles? Well, if you just look at the end result, yeah, that sounds crazy overwhelming. 
 
But when you download a training plan, and it shows you over the next three months, how you're going to gradually increase your mileage each week, and you can see how you're going to get from where you are today, not running, to where you're going to be in three months running... you know, crossing the finish line of a half marathon, it doesn't feel crazy, it doesn't even feel overwhelming. You just see the steps you need to take. So it's just a really powerful practice to write it down, whether that's your plan, your to-do list, your ideas, your problems, your prayers. 
 
Something is so powerful when you take it out of the battlefield of your mind and put it on paper in the real world, in the tangible world, where now it's secure, your brain doesn't have to work so hard to remember it, and you know that that is something that you can see on paper and you can tackle it. [00:09:56] 
 
Laura Dugger: And that's so simple and possible for all of us. Just write it down. 
 
Christy Wright: That's right.
 
Laura Dugger: What are some questions that we need to consider as we develop our business plan, whether we've already launched or not? 
 
Christy Wright: There's a lot. There's a lot of things. Actually, when I wrote Business Boutique, I wrote it as a plan. So cover to cover, we kind of go through different steps of putting together a plan for your business. But I'll tell you, one of the best things you can think about when you're starting out, an element to consider that I want you to build your whole plan around rather is what are you uniquely positioned to do? What are your unique strengths? What are your unique passions? What's your unique knowledge that you bring to this business or this idea or the marketplace? 
 
What's really cool is when you start to write out, wow, these are the things that bring me joy, these are the things that I feel like I'm created to do, these are the things that are easy for me, obvious for me, effortless for me, when you start to write down your unique strengths, your unique personality, your unique knowledge, all of that stuff, then everything about the business should be shaped around that. [00:10:59] 
 
Because you're going to be the most successful when you stay in your strengths. Your business will be the most successful when you stay in your strengths. Your customers will be the happiest when you are in your strengths, where you are doing the most of what you're good at, you spend most of your time doing what you love and as little time as possible doing what you don't love and what you're not good at. 
 
So there's a lot of things to consider. You know, when you're building a plan, you obviously want to know, Is there a market and do you solve a problem through the business? But just start with you. Like build this business around your life and your passions and your strengths and what makes you you and then figure out how you and everything that makes you, can serve the marketplace in a way that will really help people and kind of build it from there. 
 
Laura Dugger: Just to build on that, I love one of your quotes from page 95. I'm going to read it here. You say, "What's obvious to you is not obvious to everyone else. What's easy for you is not easy for everyone else. What is simple to you is not simple to everyone else. Your strengths are unique, valuable, and important, and friends, the world needs you to step into them." 
 
Christy Wright: Yes. And I'll tell you, this is a struggle of every person I've ever met. I struggle with this every time I sit down to write a blog or write a script for my podcast or write a talk for stage. I'm like, "Everyone already knows this. They're going to boo me off the stage. They're going to be like, this is the most obvious, practical... like I already knew this." But I've found that it's not. [00:12:22] 
 
There are things that are so simple that someone will teach me and it changes how I manage my time or changes something in productivity. I'll tell you, I'm reading a book right now. This hits right at home. I have my youngest son, Conley is the wild one. Anyone that has more than one child I feel like has a wild one at least. Conley is my wild one. 
 
I'm reading this book right now called You Can't Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded). And it's about raising a strong-willed child because Conley is a... by the book, strong-willed child. And I'm reading this book and I'm like, this is blowing my mind. It's so simple but I didn't know it. And it's changing how I parent, it's changing how I view my son, it's changing how I feel about the future of a life with him where I was really frustrated before, and now I feel really hope-filled. 
 
And I guarantee you, that author sat down and was like, well, this is obvious because she knows it. She lives it and breathes it every day. But you just have to remember that that's not true for everyone. In fact, God gave you those unique strengths and knowledge, and experience because He wants you to use those for the benefit of other people. [00:13:22] 
 
It's just the same way that, you know, if you're listening right now, you've benefited from someone else's knowledge or someone else's information. They had those same thoughts and fears. Like, everybody knows this. But you just have to know that what's obvious to you is not obvious to everyone else. And push past that hurdle because the world needs, we really do need what you have to offer. So we've got to push past that to go ahead and offer it to the world. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so motivating to hear. And back to that book reference, is that Cynthia Tobias who authored that one? 
 
Christy Wright: I think you're right. I think that's the name. Yeah, I think that's right. 
 
Laura Dugger: Great. We're going to link to all of this in our show notes. But just a little side note as well, you talked about being a mom and a working mom. So if somebody's hearing this and they're a woman, whether they're working inside the home or outside the home, do you have any practical encouragement for how they can find time to discover what gives them energy, what their strengths are? 
 
Christy Wright: Yes, I do. A lot of people are familiar with the different personality tests, whether it's the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or the DISC profile, but I have developed just five e-questions. That's what I call it, five questions, that have an e-word in them that can help you identify your strengths and kind of push you in the direction of your strengths. [00:14:34] So I'll just give you those really quickly. They're super simple. 
 
The first one is, what do you enjoy? Typically the things you enjoy are also the things that are in your strengths. You know, we don't like doing things we're not good at. I don't like playing basketball because I have no hand-eye coordination. So, we typically like, you know, the things that we enjoy are also our strengths.
 
Second one is where do you excel in relation to other people? Now, don't get all squirmy about this. Like, Oh, you know, I'm not good at anything. Humility. I'm just, I'm good at humility. Like, no. If God made you good at something, own it. We're not doing anyone any favors by dismissing or downplaying our strengths. So if God made you good at something, where do you excel? Where do you perform above average in relation to other people?
 
Another question to ask yourself is what do others encourage in you? So sometimes identifying our strengths comes through the gift of other people's compliments. So what are people always saying? Hey, you're so great at that. Oh my gosh, you should start a business doing that. Man, you're a natural. Those are the things that you should pay attention to. [00:15:34] 
 
A fourth question is what gives you energy? When we're in our strengths, it gives us energy. It doesn't mean that we're not tired. But it's that good kind of tired where you wake up to do it all again the next day. For me, when you're not in your strengths, it drains your energy really, really fast. I'm not good at details. If you ask me to do an Excel spreadsheet, like I'm five minutes in and I need a nap. But I'm really good at speaking on stage. I can do that for days and it gives me energy.
 
Then lastly, what comes effortless to you? So, what's easy for you? These are the easiest ones to undervalue because we think, well, if it's easy for me, it's easy for everyone else. Or it's effortless for me, then it must not have any value. But that's simply not true. That's just a sign you're in your strengths. 
 
So those five e-questions can kind of help you move in the direction of your strengths, if you go through and answer those. What do you enjoy? Where do you excel? What do others encourage in you? What gives you energy? And what comes effortless to you? Answer those questions and that will give you a good clue about the direction of your strengths. [00:16:34] 
 
Laura Dugger: Those are incredibly helpful. Great place to get started. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 
 
Sponsor: Today's episode is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Here's a few insider tips that you may not know about Chick-fil-A East Peoria. First, the best-kept secret is their chicken for breakfast, which is served Monday through Saturday, 6:30 a.m. until 10:30 a.m. 
 
My personal favorite are the chicken minis. Four chicken nuggets tucked inside a mini yeast roll and then glazed with honey butter. Or you can try the egg white grill if you want to pack in the protein. 
 
Second, did you know that Chick-fil-A caters? They will deliver and set up all of your food for your event, such as your business meeting or your birthday party. There are even a few menu items that you can only get through catering, including the waffle potato chips and chilled grilled subs. 
 
Finally, did you know you can skip the line and earn your way toward free food in the process? Just download the free Chick-fil-A app so you can place your order and pay on your mobile device, then bypass the entire line as it's ready for you when you arrive at Chick-fil-A East Peoria. [00:17:40] For more insider tips or to fill out an application online, head over to CFAEastPeoria.com.
 
Laura Dugger: From your years of working for Dave Ramsey, I just think it would be a disservice to our listeners not to cover the topic of finances. So what are you most passionate to communicate to the listeners about money, specifically as it relates to business?
 
Christy Wright: I love this question. Because you could take this a million different directions, but I'll just tell you what my gut response is. And this really relates to life or business. It doesn't matter if it's life or business. It is not evil. It is not evil. Money is not evil. Like I just want all of your listeners to hear that. Money is amoral. That means that it's not good and it's not bad. It's like a brick. You put a brick in someone's hands, it's not a nice brick, it's not a mean brick, it's not a jerk brick, it's not a really sweet brick. It's just a brick. 
 
But when you put it in the hands of a person, it can be used for good or bad. Now money is just like that. Money doesn't have character qualities. But when you put it in the hands of a person, it can be used for good or used for bad. [00:18:46] 
 
So when you understand this, that money, any amount of money, I don't care if you're talking about two pennies or you're talking about $20 million. The amount of money does not dictate the character of the person. The character of the person dictates how the amount of money is used. Any amount of money. 
 
Money is also a magnifier. So it makes you more of what you already are. So if you're a jerk and you get a lot of money, you're just going to be a huge rich jerk. But if you're a giver and you earn a lot of money, you get a lot of money, you make a lot of money, think of the difference that you could make because you're a giver and now you have all this money to leverage for the kingdom, for nonprofits, for ministries, for your family, for leaving a big tip at Waffle House. Think of the difference you can make when you have money. 
 
Money really just equals options and power and the ability to... it's a tool to be used, and if you're a believer, for good. To be used for good. I think to just understand that money is not evil. I think there's a belief in our culture. You see it in mainstream media, like, oh, the, you know, rich top 1%. You see it in the Christian subculture of like, oh my gosh, we've all just got to be poor and pitiful doormats. [00:19:57] 
 
It's like, that's not who Jesus was and that's not what God calls us to. And if we're talking about there's a certain amount of money in the world, don't we want the Christians to have it? I think we'll use it better than maybe those that aren't believers. Like, let's go do good with this money. So I hope that all of your listeners earn a ton of money. I hope they make millions of dollars in their lifetime because think of what they can do for this world, for their family, for their future that can make a big difference.
 
So money is not evil and it doesn't make you evil if you have it, earn it, want it, pursue it, build it, and so on. Money is amoral. And if you want to get super technical, you look at the parable of the talents. If you're not faithful with a little, God's not going to give you more to mismanage. But when you're faithful with a little, God can trust you with more. 
 
So I think if you can understand that money mindset, it sets you free to build wealth or to pursue a higher income or to build your business unapologetically, make sales, raise your prices. There's so much around that money mindset that sets you free for good if you can understand that money is not evil. [00:20:59] 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and I think that the topic of money does tie into sales. So how can we redefine sales in our minds to actually make a sale in our own business? 
 
Christy Wright: Well, this is really important because we need to understand what sales is. See, most people think of sales as negative. Think of all the adjectives we use for sales. Sleazy sales, slimy sales, you know, aggressive, pushy, annoying, twisting someone's arm, taking advantage of someone. None of those are positives. Of course, we don't want to sell if that's what we think sales is. 
 
However, the good news is that it's not. Sales is really serving. So think about it this way. If you have a product or service that you use that has changed your life, that has improved your life in some way, maybe it's something like a really good book that totally transforms your marriage, or maybe it's something really tactical like a dry shampoo that helps you extend your hairstyle so you don't have to wash your hair every day, it doesn't matter what it is, but if it's helped you in some way, you want to tell people about it. [00:21:59] 
 
You want to tell people because it helps you. You want to tell people because it can help them. You want to tell them because you want to improve their life and serve them. Oh my gosh, you struggle with greasy hair by five o'clock? I used to too, but I've got this great dry shampoo. Oh my gosh, your marriage is struggling? Hey, let me tell you about this book that really transformed the way my husband and I communicate. You want to tell them because it can help them. That's what sales is. 
 
If you believe in your product or service, if you created it because you believe it helps people in some way, then why would you not talk about it? You're doing them a disservice by not talking about it. So when someone comes through my book signing line, for example, when I have had thousands and thousands of success stories of women that have read my book, and built their business, and changed their life because they now can chase their dream, then I have complete confidence in what this book does. [00:22:48] 
 
I think it has got inspired. I think it makes a difference in people's lives. I wouldn't have written it if I didn't. I didn't write it just for my own fun in my free time. I wrote it to help people and I know that it does. I believe that it did when I wrote it and now I have proof that it does thousands of people later. 
 
And so if someone comes to my book signing line at an event, for example, and says, "Hey, I'm really excited to read your book. Do you think it'll help me?" I don't say, "Gosh, I don't know. Maybe, you know, it's a toss-up, 50/50." No. I'm like, "Yes, it will help you. I can't wait for you to read this book. And when you follow this plan, you are going to win. I can't wait to see what God's going to do through you when you have this information that you need to chase your dream and build this business. In fact, I'm so confident that you're going to win. I want to go ahead and give you my email. Would you email me whenever you build your business? Because I can't wait to share your success story on my podcast." 
 
You're speaking aggressive confidence over people. You are believing and speaking life into them. And you know what? They will prove you right. They will step into that confidence. They will absorb that confidence. They will take that book, they will apply that book, and then it will change their life. [00:23:55] 
 
That's not me trying to make a sale. That's not me trying to get 20 bucks. I don't care about the 20 bucks. I care about the woman on the other side of that book. And I believe that information helps her. And I know it can and I want her to believe that it can so that she can win. And when you have that kind of conversation, the sale is effortless, it's natural and it's serving that person. I served her by showing her something that could help her. 
 
And if you don't believe in your business, if you don't believe in what you're doing, then you need to be in a different business. If you've got some gut check about like, I don't think what I'm doing is moral, I don't think it's good, you know, then get a different business. But if you believe in it, sister, don't hold back because there are people that need what you have to offer right now today, but you've got to tell them. They don't know unless you tell them about it. And that's sales. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's such a great paradigm shift, that sales is actually service. Breaking it down, even on page 250 in your book, I was blown away when I read, did you know that over 60% of sales transactions happen after the fourth interaction? [00:24:56] That was mind-blowing to me. So I think it's a paradigm shift and encouragement to continue on, be persistent. 
 
Christy Wright: Totally. Because we get our feelings hurt if someone says no the first time. But it just means no right now. That's okay. I mean, think about… There's been times that, you know, if you're listening right now, someone has followed up multiple times and it was later on that you were ready to make that purchase. Just because it was no at first doesn't mean it's “no” forever. 
 
You needed a moment to think about it or talk to your husband about it or budget or read more information. People need time. It's not getting on their nerves to follow up. It's just a normal part of the process. And it's not personal. It's not like, Oh, they hate me. Never go back again. It's like, no, they just need a minute to understand what they're going to spend their money on. 
 
Laura Dugger: This is a quick shout-out to DZ's Wife who left a five-star rating and review on iTunes. She wrote, "I've enjoyed listening to each one and have jotted down some notes and ordered one of the books recommended on number three. Keep this good stuff coming." [00:25:51] 
 
If you want to leave a review on iTunes, simply click "Write a Review" on our show page on your podcast app. Your podcast reviews help spread The Savvy Sauce around the world, which in turn makes our quality of guest improve. We only want to bring you the best interviews, so thanks for helping us with this endeavor. 
 
So Christy, what tips do you recommend for managing our time better in hopes of enjoying a more abundant life? 
 
Christy Wright: All right, I'm going to give you a really simple one. You've heard it before, but I will tell you this is the most important aspect of managing your time. It doesn't have to do with the calendar or an app on your phone or the way you manage your schedule. It's simply how you handle yourself in your time. And what I mean by that is Be present. Be where your feet are. 
 
Because what is amazing is you can manage your time awesome. You can manage your time... You're maximizing, you're time blocking, you're doing all the efficiencies, multitasking, all the things. But if you're always focusing on where you're not, if when you're at work, you're thinking about home and when you're at home, you're feeling guilty for not being at work and keeping up with work. [00:26:56] If you're always focusing on where you're not, you're never present where you are and you miss your entire life one block of time at a time. 
 
The other opposite could be true. You could be kind of flippant about your schedule and not super efficient and not multitasking and not time blocking. You could be getting a lot of things wrong when it comes to practical time management. But if you could just simply be present where you are, when you're at work, you are dialed in, you're thinking about work, you're focused on work, when you're at home with your kids, your phone is down, your computer is closed, and you are looking your children in the eyes and you're playing with them and you're engaging with them and absorbing that moment, if you can just be present where you are, then you can manage your time a lot less intentionally even, but you feel like you have more of it because you actually enjoy the moment that you're in. 
 
And this is transformational when it comes to mom guilt because that's where my mom guilt comes from. It comes from when I used to always focus on where I wasn't. It was living my life perpetually looking through the rearview mirror instead of the front windshield of what I was driving to. 
 
When I was at home, I felt guilty for not keeping up with work. I was looking at my phone, my email. When I was at work, I was thinking about my kids. Do they need me? Are they okay? [00:28:00] I was missing every moment. So, now, I just flip my focus. I look through the front windshield. 
 
So for example, right now, I get to be on this awesome conversation with you, Laura, and I'm not thinking about my kids. They're fine. But when I go home, I'm going to be with my kids and I'm not going to be thinking about work or this podcast or anything I need to be doing.
 
So as simple as it sounds and as hard as it is to do, choose to flip your focus from where you're not to where you are and be where your feet are. And that will make you feel like you have more time than you ever imagined. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is a wise word. Do you have any other savvy business tips to share or even questions that you recommend we ask ourselves at different phases of launching or improving our business?
 
Christy Wright: Yeah. I would say we've talked a lot about mindset in this episode and I love that it just kind of naturally went that way, whether it's your mindset about money or your mindset about time or your mindset about your strengths. I would say that one of the most critical things you can do not just in business but in life is to have an abundance mindset.
 
So one of the things that I remind people again and again is that there's room for you in the marketplace. [00:29:03] So, you might be looking around saying, Oh, well, I want to be a seamstress and there's nine million seamstress. Okay, but there's not you. 
 
No one has your unique set of talent and skills and experience and story and style and perspective and passion that you bring to the work that you do. No one can do what you can do like you can do it. There's room for you in the marketplace. 
 
I use the example of when I was on book tour a couple years ago, we would do book signings at different bookstores. You know, we'd do the signing, and then there'd be like, 100, 200 women standing around and we do like a little coaching session, a little Q&A. And every single time I got asked this question, what if someone is already doing the thing that I want to do? 
 
And my response to them was the same, which is actually my encouragement for your listeners today. I would say, look around this bookstore. How many books are in this bookstore? Maybe in Barnes & Noble, books a million, thousands, hundreds of thousands, you know, maybe millions of books if you consider the back stock. I said, but yet you're standing here holding mine. Why is that? 
 
My book is not the best book in the world. It's certainly not the only business book out there But I believe that there's a group of people that only I can help in the way that I can help them. There's room for me in the marketplace, no matter how many books there are. [00:30:12] 
 
And the same is true for you. There is room for you in the marketplace. Just because there's other people doing something similar doesn't take away from what God wants to do through you. So regardless of your dream or your business or your stage of business or even in life, just where you are, I just want to encourage people, don't get distracted by someone else living in their strengths, chasing their dream, doing their thing, because it doesn't take away from what God wants to do through you. We have an abundance in our world.
 
Our God is an infinite God. And that means that we get to take part in that. The possibilities are infinite of what He can and wants to do with us and through us. And so just remember, regardless of where you're going or what you're doing, there's room for you too. 
 
Laura Dugger: Christy, you're such a natural encourager. We can't even contain all of your creative genius in these few moments. Where can listeners find you online? 
 
Christy Wright: Businessboutique.com. You can find out information about the podcast, the book, our courses, anything you need that can encourage you and help you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will link to all of that, like I said, in the show notes and then also on our resources tab on our website, thesavvysauce.com. [00:31:17] Christy, I just have one final question for you today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? 
 
Christy Wright: Well, I don't know how practical this is, but I'll tell you. I guess the unique thing that I bring to what I do, it's the number one thing people say about me. So, I guess I'll listen to what they say about me is my energy. I have a lot of energy and I think some people that might be stuck in a rut, you know, they need a little bit of that energy from someone else. So, if I can bring some energy and some inspiration and excitement, it might just be the boost they need to get going. So, yeah, I guess that's my savvy sauce, my secret sauce, whatever you want to call it. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's great, Christy. I definitely think that word energy pops up when I think about you. So, thanks for sharing your passion, energy, and expertise with us today. It was so helpful, and I really enjoyed our chat. 
 
Christy Wright: Oh, thanks for having me. I loved it. [00:32:11] 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:33:17] 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:34:18] 
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:35:17] 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

69 Bonus Episode! Simplifying Your Calendar, Your Home, and Your Life with Blogger, Podcaster, and Occupational Therapist, Renae Fieck

69. Simplifying Your Calendar, Your Home, and Your Life with Blogger, Podcaster, and Occupational Therapist, Renae Fieck
 
**Transcription Below**
 
James 1:22 (NIV) “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” 
 
Renae Fieck is a wife, mom of 3, occupational therapist, and advocate for moms who desire more grace, space, and rest within their lives. She has found strength beyond her own to navigate life's struggles...multiple miscarriages, and a husband with a brain tumor who now has seizures. She now has a passion to connect with other amazing women and inspire women to uncover their own worth, live in the rawness of life, and yet let go of the constant chaos. She has hosted the More than Mom Summit 2 years in a row and is the host of the podcast The Charis Project: Grace and Intention For Every day life. She can be found at renaefieck.com  
 
Renae Fieck’s Website
5 Steps to Break Free From Clutter
2 Minute Rule
Renae Fieck’s Podcast: The Charis Project
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 
 
Today's guest is Renae Fieck. We met through Flood Church in San Diego nearly a decade ago, and Renae has gone on to launch multiple projects online to help people manage their time and their lives better. Today we're going to talk about quick tips that you can implement daily to feel less overwhelmed with your schedule or your home clutter, and ideally to lead a happier and more fulfilling life. 
 
Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Renae. 
 
Renae Fieck:  Thank you for having me. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, for any listeners who have not met you yet, will you just start us off by telling us a bit about yourself? 
 
Renae Fieck: My name is Renae, and I am a mom of three. My oldest is almost eight, and then my youngest is nearly three. I am a pediatric occupational therapist, and I know, in my core, I'm an entrepreneur. And so I'm always juggling and multitasking a hundred different things. [00:01:29] 
 
Laura Dugger: I know that you're passionate about helping people create space in their life. So where did that passion originate? 
 
Renae Fieck:  Probably about three years ago, my husband and I were on vacation for our 10-year anniversary in Hawaii. At the time, my youngest was six months old, and my husband had been diagnosed with a brain tumor almost a year prior or had his surgery almost a year prior. So he had had a brain tumor, and so we had spent that year navigating brain tumor, brain tumor removal, seizures, new pregnancy, new job, and all of the things that went along with that.
 
There was a point in that year where I was driving him back and forth to work. I was taking care of all of the kids. And then, just as nature would have it, when you don't have somebody that can drive, all the responsibilities of all the other household stuff kind of fell on me. I felt so exhausted and wiped out that when I was on vacation in Hawaii, I literally wanted to walk away from all of it. [00:02:32] 
 
I wanted to walk away from motherhood, from my spouse. I wanted to set up camp in Hawaii and stay in Hawaii for the rest of my life. So I broke down in this place where I felt like I should have been the happiest ever, being married with three kids and healthy family at that point, but I wasn't. And so I realized that there was something I needed to do differently in my life in order to get that joy back. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, huge change. Your husband gets diagnosed with a brain tumor, when that occurred in your life, you intentionally created space in your own schedule. Is that right? 
 
Renae Fieck: Yeah. I knew that whatever I was doing wasn't working, and me managing all of it wasn't working, and that just going by the day-to-day wasn't actually bringing me joy. I knew that I wanted to be a mom, I knew I wanted to be married, and yet it wasn't making me happy. 
 
So what was it? Was there something I had to do different in order to feel happy and to make that? [00:03:34] I had to start with my internal workings and how I was delegating my time and how I was creating my space in my home and what my priorities in life really were and how I was being intentional. That's how it kind of all got started. 
 
Laura Dugger: If you don't mind sharing, what were a few of those practical tips? Maybe something someone could replicate today, things that really helped you.
 
Renae Fieck: I think the biggest thing for me has been really checking in with my mindset and being really aware of kind of that mental chatter that's going on inside and those voices that maybe we're not really recognizing or we're not really aware that they're there. 
 
I have a friend of mine. Her name is Leeana Tankersley. She wrote an amazing book, and she calls them soul bullies. And I really like that word for soul bullies because they're those voices that are inside just kind of telling us that we're not good enough, we can't hold it together, that we're not managing it well enough, we're not the amazing mom that we want to be. [00:04:34] 
 
Kind of tuning into those soul bullies and really being aware of them has been one of the biggest things that has been life-changing for me. Because when you start to expose them and recognize them, then you can create truths that combat them and you can start to rewrite that story. 
 
So all of those times when you feel like you are failing or those times when you feel like you don't have enough or you feel like your kids are stressing you out or you're ungrateful for where you're at, if you start to recognize those thoughts, then you can replace them with the actual truths and the statements that you want to have as truths in your life. And that's when I feel like you can really unleash that internal working and changing your life. 
 
That would probably be one of my biggest ones. I think that that has been one of the biggest ways to help me let go of the mom guilt and recognize that I can't manage it all. I have so much going on. 
 
Just as a quick little story, I totally spaced bringing snack to my daughter's preschool last week. [00:05:38] At the end of the day when I realized it, at the end of the day, and so I couldn't rectify it that day, I felt kind of miserable. And I listened to all of those thoughts that were going on inside like, Oh my gosh, you've got way too much on your plate. You can't manage it. Like you need to let go of something else. How are you not a good mom? Like you can't even remember snack at school." 
 
When I started to recognize that those thoughts were going through my head, I was able to stop them and replace them with, You know what? It's just snack. The kids are fine. They had snack probably leftover from a previous snack or the school had snack and that's okay. My priority is my children and loving my children and worrying about snack and letting it define who I am as a mom is not okay. 
 
I think that that's been one of the biggest things for me is kind of recognizing that internal chatter, replacing it with truths and using it as a way to kind of let go of mom guilt, let go of the expectations other people have on you. It's really simple to do is just like quick little check-ins throughout the day. [00:06:48] 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that because it's emphasizing more talking to yourself rather than listening to those soul bullies. You mentioned that that was your internal change. And then externally, I'm very curious. You mentioned even… was it decluttering your house? Or what were some of the other external life changes you made? 
 
Renae Fieck: Yeah. So I wouldn't call myself a minimalist, but I'm definitely moving in that direction. I think a lot of it is because I realized so much of my time was being spent taking care of the things in my space. I was doing laundry. I was doing dishes. I was shuffling people back and forth. I was constantly stepping on Legos and feeling like I was nagging at my kids nonstop to pick up their stuff. 
 
There was this turning point when my dad was watching my kids when I was on a trip with my husband, our first trip away ever without our kids. And my dad had made a comment about the fact that when I got back, I was going to find a lot of my stuff in the trash. [00:07:50] I think it was his way of kind of inclining that we just had too much stuff. A lot of it was stuff that I didn't need.  
 
I was really attached at that point to a lot of the stuff and thought, no, no, no, you can't get rid of this stuff because these are toys. These are things that my kids enjoy. This is stuff that we use. And it really helped me realize that it is all just stuff. And that stuff is clogging up my time with the things that really matter to me. And it's taking away my time with my priorities, which are my children and my family. At the end of the day, I would much rather be hanging out at the park or the beach or playing with my kids than worrying about laundry and dishes and cleaning up my house. 
 
So we have spent the last couple of years really offloading and getting rid of stuff. I wouldn't call myself... is it Marie Kondo? I think that's her name. I'm not to that point of like, does each item in my house bring me joy? [00:08:49] But I definitely go through the day... when I'm picking things up and putting things away, I ask myself, do I really need this item? And I'm letting throwing it away or donating it be kind of my default rather than just putting it away. 
 
Laura Dugger: Are there any specific items that have been the most freeing to let go of? 
 
Renae Fieck: I don't know if it's items in particular. I think it's just the accumulation of stuff and recognizing that I don't need stuff to make me happy. I don't need stuff to enjoy time with my kids. My kids actually don't need it either. We actually spend more time together and have more fun together when we're not picking all the stuff up. 
 
So it's helped me embrace no and being able to tell no to people and respecting my time because I'm also being really respectful of the things that come into my house and being really intentional about those things that are in my house and in my calendar, not just in one space. So I think it really comes to simplification and decluttering your whole life, your time, and your space and being really mindful of what you allow to infiltrate your life. [00:09:58] 
 
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. For you as a multitasker, it's now opened up these opportunities. You've launched various projects like the Motherhood Summit and now a new podcast. I would love to know through all of your interviews, if you had to narrow it down to your top three favorite takeaways, what would you say they are? 
 
Renae Fieck: My top three takeaways I think out of everything is that less is really more. I think in our society it's so easy to add so much to our calendars where we can do anything from our phones. Sometimes we look at that as being simple and easy and it's actually giving us more time. But I think it's actually taking away time from our life. I think less is more. 
 
Looking at where you can cut things from your life and where you can actually be really intentional is a big thing that I've learned over the last couple of years. I think also that internal dialogue, that mental piece that I talked about and how you can actually really change your life when you start to think about what you're telling yourself and those thoughts that you're putting in your head and that you're speaking and how you can use those as kind of self-fulfilling prophecies. [00:11:18] 
 
Those are the two biggest pieces is that you don't always have to add more to your life in order to achieve what you want or to be happy. That less is actually where you find that. And then being really aware of those thoughts that you're telling yourself. 
 
Laura Dugger: It seems like you've been on a health journey as well. When you're saying less is more, is health one of those things that you're now focusing on more than you used to? 
 
Renae Fieck: Completely. I hated anything health-related when I was a kid. I can remember my mom doing like buns of steel and abs of steel workout videos in our garage when I was a kid. And I was like, "Oh, that is not something I will ever do." 
 
And even into college and things. I remember we'd go for a walk and my mom would say, "Oh, let's do some lunges." And I'd say, "No, thank you. It was never a big priority to me." And I've learned that taking care of my body and taking care of my mind and taking care of my family, it all goes together. We can't trade one thing for the other. [00:12:18] 
 
If you want to be the best mom or the best wife or the best friend or anything like that, you have to take care of yourself first. You have to have the energy. You have to have the stamina. You have to have the clarity. You have to have it all. 
 
So taking care of my body has been a huge piece of that. It's not just one or the other, I think, is the big piece. You have to take care of your home, your space that isn't around you. You have to take care of your calendar. You have to take care of your body in order for you to actually be able to take care of anything else in your life. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, and now after you've put these resources out on the internet, a lot of people come to you for coaching tips. Are you hearing any recurring frustrations from people? 
 
Renae Fieck: Time. People always tell me that's the number one thing I hear is I don't have enough time. I think that it partly comes down to our mindset and the way we look at time. Because we all have the same 24 hours in a day. [00:13:20] 
 
Sometimes I know we wish we had 48 hours but at the end of it, we all have the same 24 but yet somehow it seems like some people manage their time better. Or maybe it's just the perception. And that could be part of that internal dialogue, you know, that we're saying when we're like, how does that person manage to get it all done? And I can't. I'm sitting over here floundering.
 
So I would really challenge anybody that maybe is listening, and that would be their number one excuse for anything that they want in their life. Whether it be taking care of their house or their health or a date night or whatever it may be that they want. I can almost guarantee that time is going to be that number one hurdle that people bring up is that I don't have enough time. [00:14:03] 
 
So my challenge would be that instead of letting busy be your default word, you know, 90% of the time if somebody asks you how you're doing, you're going to reply with busy. So my challenge would be to kind of reframe that and rethink that. 
 
Instead of letting busy be your default response, what other response could you say instead? If you try this, it's really hard. Because we've gotten so used to saying busy. My life is busy. I have so much to do. 
 
I think you can really turn around that, number one, by the language that you use around it and not allowing yourself to believe you're busy. And setting, you know, words around "I can get this done. I can make it happen. I can figure it out. Yes, I have a lot of stuff on my to-do list today, but at the end of the day, I'm going to make it happen. It's going to work. I'm going to figure it out." I think just that intention shifts it big time. 
 
Then the second thing that I would recommend is blocking your time. Oftentimes we waste so much time in our day. We spend it scrolling social media. We waste it just daydreaming. We waste it shuffling between different tasks. [00:15:12] We try to multitask and we're not actually getting anything accomplished. 
 
I think setting really blocks of time can be really powerful to help create more time. So instead of trying to clean your house all day long, if you set what I call like a power hour where you spend one hour, maybe a half an hour, whatever works for you, and you turn off any sort of distractions, you turn off your phone, you turn off the TV, you turn off anything you can and you spend really intentional time in that one-hour cleaning. 
 
Then outside of that time, you don't worry about cleaning. You don't worry about the laundry. You don't worry about whatever. I think that oftentimes that's where we get caught up is the multitasking and the switching between tasks. We're less efficient. We get less done with that. 
 
So many times as moms, that's what our life looks like, right? We're constantly juggling and we're constantly multitasking. So it's no wonder that we feel like we never have enough time. So being really aware of that upfront, creating those spaces in your time where maybe before you do your cleaning power hour, maybe you sit down on the floor and you spend 30 minutes totally playing with your kids, like engaged, no cell phone, no cleaning, no nothing. [00:16:29] Like you play with your kids for 30 minutes. 
 
Oftentimes when you spend that really intentional time, they're going to want less of your time and that will give you 30 more minutes to do your cleaning power hour. So I think setting up real specific, real blocked times where you know I'm going to spend 30 minutes doing this and then I'm going to move on can be really powerful to help unleash that time. And then watching your language around it. 
 
Laura Dugger: It just reminds me of a quote — I don't want to botch it — from Dave Ramsey. But he said something like this. "If you want to do well with your finances, don't take advice from broke people." Take advice from rich people. 
 
I think it's that same mentality. You're saying we all have the same 24 hours in a day. So if you're wanting a mentor in this or this is an area of life that you want to improve your time management, maybe seek out someone who's a little bit further along and they do a great job managing their time. [00:17:22] And you want to talk to those people and see what they're doing. 
 
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
 
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Laura Dugger: You and I knew each other from church years ago. Do you feel like God has played a part in really grabbing your attention and making this big life change? 
 
Renae Fieck: I do. I think that so much of what I've learned and the little principles that I've learned over the last couple of years have been things I think I've heard my entire life. They're meditate on my word and be still and know Me. And all of these little principles, like treat your body as a temple, these things that I feel like were so ingrained in my head as a growing up Christian in the church person that I started to not really take them to heart and I didn't actually put them into practice. [00:19:20] 
 
Now that I'm actually putting them into practice and I'm helping people, it's kind of brought it full circle in the sense of these are truths and principles that have been there from biblical days. They're foundational. I do feel like so much of what I've learned has been stuff I've heard over and over and over again, but yet it took this meltdown moment in Hawaii for God to really open up and say, there are so many other people that have heard these truths too, but they're not actually implementing them and they don't understand them and they don't realize how powerful they can actually be in their life. 
 
Or maybe we've heard it so many times that we've just let it be like, Oh yeah, that works, but we never actually put it into practice, if that makes sense. 
 
Laura Dugger: My husband, Mark, always says, wisdom is knowledge applied. And you're saying you took this knowledge from the Bible and you're actually applying it to your life and it's creating a huge impact. So on this topic of time, practically speaking, now that you have three kids, how do you find time to do all these things that you love? Will you walk us through what your typical week looks like? [00:20:30] 
 
Renae Fieck: Yeah. I do have a lot on my plate and I've gotten really good about not saying I'm really busy. But I do have a lot. I work part-time. I work two full 10-hour days at the hospital here. So I have two days of my week that are pretty much devoted to that. So in the morning, it's getting up and getting shuffled out the door and then working all day and coming home. 
 
I get home after dinner and before the kids go to bed. So really on those days, most of my time when I'm home is spent just with the kids, like helping get bedtime together. And it can feel kind of chaotic. And so I really make that time that I'm putting them to bed. 
 
I try to make it intentional. I try not to get distracted by my phone and know that like, Okay, I've got one hour with my kids right now and that's all I've got today, and so I'm going to make that meaningful for me. 
 
Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday are my days where I'm home most of the time. I've got kids or, you know, I'm shuffling between the typical errands of dental appointments and oil changes and all of that, like getting all of that done. [00:21:39] 
 
When I think back at my schedule, it's really those power-blocked times that I have found that have enabled me to get through it all. I know that on Tuesday mornings is when I do all my cleaning and Tuesday afternoons is when we go to Costco or the grocery store and we get all of our shopping done. Wednesday nights is Girl Scouts. 
 
I'm just really intentional about what gets put on my time and where my time goes. And then it's those extraneous things like the kids snack that I told you about that weren't on my calendar, that I didn't get on there, that those are the things where my ball gets dropped is if it's not a priority on my schedule. 
 
But I think that overall, like when I look at my days and I look at my time, it's really those power hour scheduled times. And if you looked at my Google calendar, I have everything blocked in there. I have time for my workout. I have time for journaling. I have time for playing with my kids. I have time for cooking. I have it all on my calendar so that I know where my time is being spent, [00:22:43] and it's not getting wasted in random things, if that makes sense. 
 
But it also has blank space. It has space where there is room for things to pop up or room for us to go play and have fun. I really make having play time and fun time and blank space-time, I make it a priority to be on my schedule. It's not just the extra, if that makes sense. 
 
Laura Dugger: It does. And I think equally as important, what do you find that you're saying no to in this season? 
 
Renae Fieck: To be completely honest, my no time has been really in the area of friends. I have a lot of friends that I connect with digitally and on the phone and things like that. But actually, one-on-one in-person time with other people outside of my family is probably the biggest space that I've had to say no to. 
 
Each of my kids get one extra thing outside of school and that's it. Like we're not adding in multiple things for them each day of the week. Or even when it comes down to like baby showers or bridal showers or things like that. Those are oftentimes the things that I say no to. [00:23:53] 
 
In this season, I've just acknowledged that that's okay for me and I'm okay with that. But I would say that overall, that's the biggest one is, like you said, learning to say no. I say no a lot and I say it no easily because I know what my priorities are and my intentions are. And I'm focused solely on those. 
 
So if it doesn't align with something that supports one of my priorities right now, I let go of it. And I say no gracefully and understand that they don't know my life. And if they're upset about that, that's okay. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think that's a great point, though, that you do start with a vision casting and you start with, what are my priorities? And then that helps inform where your time and budget is going to go and where you're going to say no. 
 
Our team would love to know, has The Savvy Sauce benefited you in any way? Our hope is that your life is enriched just a little bit more after listening and applying lessons from each episode. If you have enjoyed the podcast, would you show us your support by pledging $5 per month to become a patron? You will receive some awesome perks and your contribution will help us offset the production costs for The Savvy Sauce, so we can still make the majority of our content free to the public. [00:25:10] 
 
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So as you're being so intentional with these blocks of time, when do you actually sit down and draw out your calendar? 
 
Renae Fieck: Well, I've tried doing a paper calendar and it never worked for me because I felt like I didn't have the time to actually sit down and do the calendar so precisely. So I love Google. I've created different calendars in my one Google calendar. So each one has a different color. So it auto imports all of those routine tasks, those things that are on my schedule on a week-to-week basis. 
 
So it makes it easy that I'm not adding in, you know, the same things over and over and over again every week. I can just quickly look at my week ahead and know what's coming up for that week that maybe is out of the ordinary or something that's different or of that nature. [00:26:13] 
 
So it makes the calendar planning pretty easy because I can kind of quickly get a glance. You know, Sunday night. I can look forward to the week that's coming and just know, Oh, on Thursday we have a dentist appointment that's not usually there or something of that nature. But those routine tasks and those things that are there ongoing, they're just on my calendar without even thinking about it. 
 
Laura Dugger: Oh, I think that's huge having those reoccurring routines or habits. So breaking it down then like cooking or working out or cleaning. You're not saying you do all of those things every day, but you have a time designated at least once, maybe multiple times per week. Is that right? 
 
Renae Fieck: Yeah. There's a few little habits that I consistently do. I just ran a decluttering challenge, like kind of sharing a lot of those. But I do have some habits like my two-minute rule, where if there's something I can accomplish in two minutes, I try to do it right then rather than procrastinating it. 
 
So that might be when you come in from your house and you take your shoes off rather than just leaving them by the door. Can you go hang them up right away? Or when you get done with your dishes or dinner and you're putting the dishes in the sink, can you rinse them and put them in the dishwasher right away? [00:27:24] 
 
And so if you can do those things in two minutes or less, I recommend doing them right away so that they don't pile up. Because oftentimes what happens is it's not so much the managing all of our household stuff that gets burdensome. It's the fact that we're doing it all the time and that we have so much piled up that we feel like we never make progress. So it's kind of this ongoing thing. 
 
So I have my two-minute rule and then I do a 10-minute sweep every night. So every night the kids and I all go through and clean up as much as we possibly can. I want everything in the floor or on my flat surfaces in my living room and kitchen space to be put away almost every night. And when you do that, it makes it much more manageable to keep up with on an ongoing basis. 
 
The only way that it really makes it super manageable is when you get rid of stuff and you have left stuff. So it makes putting it away so much simpler every night. I do try to go to bed every night with my kitchen clean, my living room clean and the kids' bedrooms clean. But I think it's because we've created this habit of taking 10 or 15 minutes every night and doing it. [00:28:27] 
 
I can tell you that my floor is not clean. I don't know when the last time it's been mopped or the last time I've cleaned the toilets in the bathrooms. But as far as the clutter and the stuff, I try to make it a habit of getting it taken care of every day. 
 
Laura Dugger: After hearing this message, some people may want to dive a little deeper. So do you have any resources or podcasts or scripture references, anything that you would like to direct listeners towards? 
 
Renae Fieck: Yeah. I have two free downloads you can do on my website. One of them is in regards to the clutter. It's like my five steps to declutter. So if you're looking for more practical tips like my two-minute rule or my 10-minute sweep or things like that, you can download that. 
 
It also goes into how you manage to do it with grace. Like how do you give yourself the space to let some of that stuff rest so that you can actually enjoy and not focus on like your house has to be clean all the time. 
 
Then the other one is my five essentials to creating a life you love. [00:29:30] So this goes into more of that mindset and kind of surrounding yourself with people that are going to bring you up and those critical pieces that I feel like have helped me get to the place that I am today. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. We'll definitely link to those in our show notes. Where can listeners specifically find you online? 
 
Renae Fieck: My website is the best place to find me. I have kind of a weird spelling. It's just my first and last name dot com. I'm assuming, Laura, you can just link that. But it's just RenaeFieck.com. That's the best place. That's where I'm putting all of it.
 
Laura Dugger: Perfect. Well, I love to close with the one question that I ask every guest. And that's because we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And as my final question today, Renae, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Renae Fieck: I think that my No. 1 thing would be to check in with that mental chatter and watch how you're talking to yourself. [00:30:30] It's so easy to see other people doing it really well on the internet and compare... I had a person, her name is Jill Savage, she had told me like, that you're comparing your inside reality to somebody's outside reality. So it's that idea of looking at somebody else's outside perception of what's going on in their world, and then you're comparing your inner workings to that.
 
So putting that on hold and kind of really just checking in with that mental chatter that's going on inside, speaking truth over that and watching how that language is really dictating and steering your life and what it's allowing you to accept opportunities and what opportunities it's having you decline and all of that based on just that internal dialogue.
 
I think that that would be my biggest thing. And like really learning to retrain that thought process and retrain
that mental chatter and letting go of those soul bullies so that you can create kind of the life that you really want. [00:31:33]
 
Laura Dugger: It sounds like you've done exactly that. This was really fun to get to connect today and actually document one of our conversations. So thanks for being my guest, Renae
 
Renae Fieck: Of course, thank you so much for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:32:32] 
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:33:36] 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:34:36] 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

68 Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan

68. Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Jeremiah 30:17 (a) NIV “But I will restore you to health and heal your wounds,’ declares the LORD,"
 
Dr. Jill Carnahan completed her residency at the University of Illinois Program in Family Medicine at Methodist Medical Center. She received her medical degree from Loyola University Stritch School of Medicine in Chicago and her Bachelor of Science degree in Bio-Engineering at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana.  She is dually board-certified in Family Medicine and Integrative Holistic Medicine.  In 2008, Dr. Carnahan’s vision for health and healing resulted in the creation of Methodist Center for Integrative Medicine in Peoria, IL where she served as the Medical Director for 2 years.  In 2010, she founded Flatiron Functional Medicine in Boulder, Colorado where she practices functional medicine with medical partner, Dr. Robert Rountree, author and expert speaker.  Dr. Carnahan is also 10-year survivor of breast cancer and Crohn’s disease and passionate about teaching patients how to “live well” and thrive in the midst of complex and chronic illness.  She is also committed to teaching other physicians how to address underlying cause of illness rather than just treating symptoms through the principles of functional medicine.  She is a prolific writer, speaker, and loves to infuse others with her passion for health & healing!
 
Dr. Jill’s Website 
Environmental Working Group Website
IQ Air
Austin Air
 
Dr. Jill’s Protein Smoothie Recipe: 
·      Approximately 1 cup ice cubes
·      ½ - 1 ripe banana (frozen and sliced works best; slice and freeze your ripe bananas for smoothies)
·      ½ - 1 cup organic frozen berries or other frozen fruit
·      1 scoop protein powder (recommended protein powder: Thorne Vegalite)
·      2 tablespoon of ground flaxseed or Salba Seed
·      Handful of fresh spinach or kale (optional)
·      Liquid stevia drops to taste (optional)
·      Enough water or coconut milk (or other dairy substitute) to cover all the other ingredients – more or less depending on desired consistency.  
o  For a lower calorie option use ½ water and ½ coconut milk
Process everything in a heavy-duty blender until you get a thick, velvety, and smooth milkshake and enjoy!
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Have you been looking for creative ways to invest in your relationship with your spouse and with your family? You can do this from your home with zero preparation with Night In Boxes. For more information, visit NightInBoxes.com. 
Do you have a teething baby? Our sponsor today can help. Chew Beads is the original teething jewelry brand for all your baby's teething needs and beyond. Mommy chic and baby safe. Visit them at ChewBeads.com. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan has been on The Savvy Sauce previously, and time with her is gold. We recorded while she was in her office, so I do apologize if you hear some background noise. But you may not even notice because you're going to be so caught up in all the advice and tips she shares. 
Today, we're specifically going to have her teach us more about the role of hormones and how to keep them in balance. Here's our chat. [00:01:21] 
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Jill. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Thank you so much for having me back, Laura. 
Laura Dugger: Well, it's always a pleasure. Let's just dive right in today to discussing how hormones impact our lives. So, first, will you just teach us what hormones are and explain what role they play in our bodies? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You got it. These are messengers that come from different glands in our body. And it's one of the ways that all the different glands, from the adrenals to the thyroid to the pituitary, to, for females, ovaries, and for men, testes, how they all communicate and kind of have... it's like the language, kind of like their email the way they communicate between one another. So a lot of different things affect hormone production. 
Hormones really drive a lot of our physiology. The main things that I work with with hormones, with both men and women, are the thyroid. It's a big one for a lot of people. That runs our metabolism. It makes us have normal body temperature, normal metabolism to use calories and to burn up calories and to make and create energy. [00:02:22] 
Another one that's real common that we deal with is adrenals. Adrenal glands are glands that sit just on top of the kidneys. They're a little triangular-shaped gland, and they produce mineralocorticoids, and they also produce steroid hormones like cortisol. These things will regulate our blood sugar. They will regulate our hydration. So if we drink and we stay hydrated, part of that is the function of the adrenal glands. 
They regulate adrenaline. So if we get in a state of fear or fight or flight or shock, they will actually keep us alive in a situation of trauma or fear or anything that's really difficult, even just a surgery or a physiological stressor. 
In women, the ovaries produce all the female hormones, estrogen to testosterone to DHEA and progesterone. And it's this big symphony where... like in women, we have a dominant part of our cycle when we're cycling, menstruating women, that is estrogen-dominant. And then the other half of our cycle, the luteal phase, is progesterone-dominant. That balance is just up and down like a wave for both of those hormones. And they're kind of in yin and yang. One goes up, and the other goes down, and the other goes up, and the other goes down. [00:03:26] 
And if that balance is going well, women have no trouble with having children and conceiving and having normal cycles, and they don't have pain or cramping or heavy bleeding. 
But so many women we know have endometriosis and polycystic ovarian syndrome where they have acne or hair growth or irregular blood sugars, or they have trouble with uterine fibroids or infertility is a big one. All of these things stem from that symphony being imbalanced. 
Then for men, it's a little bit more simple. I always joke because it's actually quite a bit easier to balance male hormones than it is to balance women's hormones. But men have a symphony too. They primarily have androgens, which are the DHEA and testosterone. 
And it's interesting because something like autoimmune disease, which I'm sure a lot of your listeners either have or know someone who has, is partially related to, in women it's much more prevalent because they have lower testosterone. Testosterone is one of the things in men that actually helps them to prevent from having a lot of autoimmunity. [00:04:26] 
So they have a much more dominant testosterone. They have a little bit of estrogen. In men, if the estrogen gets too high, they will tend to have man boobs and weight gain around the central part of their abdomen. They'll have a low sex drive, low ambition, just drive in general. 
There's a lot of chemicals in our environment that stimulate estrogens in both men and women. Sometimes women will have heavy painful periods and fibroids and early breast development. I just talked to a family with an eight-year-old girl with breast development, and that's called precocious puberty. That actually comes from these environmental toxins that are like estrogens to the body. 
Then men, the same thing. Some of these environmental toxins that look like estrogens to the body can cause the estrogen symptoms in men, which is no fun for them either. 
Then there's pituitary and some hormones up there. Those are all the precursors to these. They're like the directors of the symphony. Those are things like ACTH, which stimulates the adrenal gland, and TRH, which stimulates the thyroid gland, and TSH. And then all of these precursors can actually stimulate the hormones. [00:05:29] 
Even though that sounds complicated, that's a simplified version of this really beautiful complex thing that God created in us to direct the symphony. 
Laura Dugger: That's amazing. It is so complex. But you mentioned environmental issues. Are there any common top killers of a healthy hormone balance? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah. If you don't mind, I'm going to digress a little because this puts it all in perspective. I grew up near you on a farm in central Illinois, and they're still in the U.S. used. There's a lot of pesticides and chemicals that are used that are actually banned in countries like in Europe. Some of those chemicals like atrazine and glyphosate and a lot of the organophosphate pesticides, they actually have a really strong estrogen-like and hormonal effect on the body. 
I bring it up related to me because at 25 years old, very young, I had breast cancer. And there's no doubt in my mind it was the perfect storm of probable exposures as a young child, possibly in utero before I was born, to some of these estrogen-like chemicals. [00:06:31] 
Then my body, genetically, was very poor at detoxifying. So it was kind of the perfect storm to give me a cancer at 25. And what people don't realize is when you have a cancer at 25, that means the hit on your DNA, the damage was probably done 10 or 20 years prior, which means I was a very, very young girl when these hormones and hormone-like chemicals were actually causing or wreaking havoc on my body. 
We see that all the time. A lot of the environmental cancers, especially prostate and breast cancers in men and women, are related to this environmental toxic load. The most common things that affect hormones would be phthalates and parabens, which for women are in a lot of your bath and body products. 
If you look for anything that says methylparaben or paraben at the end, you can actually look at the label and read this. And you should not be using things with phthalates or parabens in them on your body. 
I remember, again, after breast cancer, I realized the toxic load from my bath, my beauty, my cleaning products. It took me a couple of years, but I really went through one by one and tried to get rid of all the toxic chemicals that were being used in my house and on my body. [00:07:37] And it's literally hundreds of things that most of us women use every day. 
One resource for your listeners, there's a website that's nonprofit called Environmental Working Group. It's just EWG for EnvironmentalWorkingGroup.org. They have a lot of resources on toxic chemicals. You can look up cosmetics and beauty products and see their rating and see how clean they are. So that might be really helpful if your listeners are looking for ways to clean up that routine because that's actually a lot of where we get our exposure, is the things we put on our body and in our mouth and clean our house with. 
Laura Dugger: Wow. That's really helpful to know what to avoid. And then on the other side, are there any proactive lifestyle choices that have been proven to support a healthy endocrine system? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah. I always say super simple. Even when I'm teaching physicians, I go back to the root. And that is clean air, clean water, clean food. Sounds so basic that you're like, what? But clean air, 80% of our environmental toxic load is from the air we breathe. [00:08:39] And so a lot of our chemicals, mold in particular in houses and different workplaces and things, can cause a really bad problem with the endocrine system. And it's everywhere in a lot of homes that people don't know it, and they have mold from water intrusion. So that's a big one. 
Like I mentioned, pesticides. So things as far as clean food, you want to eat organic as much as possible. A lot of people say they can't afford organic, but I'm always apt to say, well, you could pay the farmer or pay the doctor, but I'd rather pay for good food and prevent the hospitalization later on. 
There is ways to prioritize. You can look at that same Environmental Working Group. There's a dirty dozen they put out every year, and these are the top 12 produce like celery or strawberries that are sprayed with pesticides. So those, if at all possible, you absolutely want to eat organic. So the food that we eat, organic if possible, non-GMO if possible, because the genetically modified corn, soy, and wheat are heavily sprayed with glyphosate. [00:09:35] 
Then the clean air. So having an air filter in your home or workplace, something with a HEPA filter and then also a BOC or volatile organic solvent filter. My two favorites are IQ Air and Austin Air. They make great air filters. I have like four in my office and two at home. So clean air.
Clean water. So just making sure you have a filter at home or that you're drinking pure, clean water. A lot of the well water that I grew up on is contaminated with pesticides and things, and so just making sure you're drinking clean water. And you think, well, let's just go buy bottled water, but the plastic bottles that the bottled water is in is a problem as well. They can contain BPA, which is another endocrine disruptor. So if at all possible, filtered water is great to have at home whenever you can. 
Then clean food is just making sure organic. Local if possible, as close to the ground. So as far as if you have your own garden or you have a farmer's market, those are great places. Sometimes I would choose locally grown without pesticides, you know, fresh produce over organic just because it's got so much nutrient density.[00:10:37] 
Typically the farmers at the farmer's market, they don't always have certified organic, but they usually do not use a lot of pesticides. So you can just ask those things. Those are really basic, but that alone will help the hormone balance quite a bit. 
Laura Dugger: Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors. 
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Laura Dugger: On that topic of food, are there any other foods that we should be aware of that either have hormones in them or that will greatly affect our hormones if we consume them? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yes. Great question. Soy is a lot of controversy over. And I found that for most people, especially processed soy, so soy proteins, soy products, fake soy foods, not a good idea. The studies in China and Japan where they should benefit for prevention of breast cancer were solely using fermented soy. And that would be like miso and tempeh. 
So those alone would be a decent source of soy, probably safe. But any other processed soy should really be avoided by most women if at all possible and especially by men. 
Broccoli, cauliflower, cruciferous vegetables contain a special thing called sulforaphanes and these are really powerful to protect against breast cancer. So I'd actually recommend consuming leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables as protection for breast cancer and for the hormone effects as well. [00:14:07] 
Laura Dugger: I know I've heard you give examples like, have a nutrient-packed smoothie every morning and put leafy greens in there. Are there any other ways that we could incorporate these healthy foods into our diet in an easy way? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Oh, such a great question. First of all, cooking with fresh spices, so I literally buy the herbs raw. Like whole. I do have some dried spices in my cabinet, but if you can buy the packs or grow your own, it's super easy. I don't have a whole garden, but I have a balcony with a flower box and I put my herbs on my balcony. 
These fresh herbs, oregano, thyme, rosemary, rosemary has a wonderful breast protective effect, are actually really powerful for protection against hormone-related cancers. And they're delicious. Other things you could do is of course the teas and things. 
And you mentioned a smoothie. So let me just talk for those of you who aren't used to making a smoothie. How would you do that? The reason it's so powerful is number one, it's easy. Number two, it's something you can put a ton of nutrient-dense things into and consume it all at once and get a lot of nutrition and a lot of bang for your buck. [00:15:08] 
There are so many people who want to lose weight and be more healthy and the best science shows that weight loss occurs when we do some sort of a meal replacement. So this works really well as a breakfast meal replacement. And if you start your day with something that's a really good protein, fat mix, and not a lot of refined carbs, it will affect your blood sugar throughout the whole day. 
So what you eat for breakfast is going to affect your cravings for the rest of the day. So if you have a bagel and orange juice, you're going to have the blood sugar will rise up, insulin will follow. Two to three hours later, you'll be starving hungry. And if you're at the office and there's brownies, you're going to have one. So you're following the cravings and that insulin and glucose surge all day long. 
If you instead have either something like eggs and turkey and spinach or a smoothie, you're going to be much more stable through the morning. You won't have a spike in glucose or insulin. Then later in the day, you'll have lunch but you'll be very controlled. You won't have a lot of cravings. [00:16:06] 
So back to smoothie. Basics are get a good blender. I love my Vitamix for this. But not everyone has to have a $500 blender to do a smoothie. You can do a basic blender. You can even buy those little Nutribullets and things that are quick and easy. 
Bottom line is you want some leafy greens for sure. There's a lot of powerhouse. Probably one of the most powerful nutrient-rich foods is things like kale and spinach and other leafy greens. So that's one of the basics, a couple handfuls of that. 
I like to have people find a clean protein powder. A lot of people hear about whey protein. Not a bad idea but a lot of people are sensitive to dairy and cannot use whey. And I don't recommend soy. So your alternatives are rice and pea proteins and most of the patients I see do some combination. Some of them are on a grain-free diet and so they'll use a collagen powder or a bone broth or some sort of a protein that's from an animal source. And any of those are okay. 
But that's your protein source. And usually, you want 20 to 30 grams of protein. It's usually in one scoop of that protein powder and that will keep you full. [00:17:04] Then you want to use some alternative milk. I typically don't recommend cow's dairy because most cow's dairy has a lot of hormones. That's another source and a lot of people are really sensitive to regular U.S. dairy. So I recommend coconut, almond, hemp, some alternative milk that you're not sensitive to. 
Then other things you can throw in there are parsley, cilantro, chia or flaxseed are great fiber sources. And then berries are one of your best low-glycemic fruits. So I usually recommend people buy a bag of organic frozen berries or raspberry, strawberry, blueberry, blackberry. That would be your best source of fruit. 
If you do like a mango, banana, smoothie, all fruit, all high-glycemic, you end up having a big sugary drink. So it's pretty important to choose low-glycemic fruits and then make sure you have the leafy greens. Make sure you have the protein powder. 
Some people will add a little bit of MCT oil which is a fat that's really good for the brain and metabolism. Some people will add a banana to make it a little bit more of the texture. When you put a banana either frozen or fresh in there, it makes it much more creamy. [00:18:05] If you put a frozen banana in, it's going to taste more like ice cream. But the banana is higher glycemic. So if someone has a real problem with blood sugar, then I would do without the banana. 
Then literally you can throw cumin, that orange spice, ginger. And for me, I'll buy those fresh whole – they're like roots at the store and I'll grate them into my smoothie. So literally fresh turmeric, fresh ginger, whatever flavors you like. I actually love cinnamon and cinnamon is good for blood sugar regulation. So I will often put a teaspoon of cinnamon in there and it's just delicious with that. You can say vanilla, strawberry, cinnamon, spinach smoothie. It's really good. 
Laura Dugger: This is awesome because just knowing what step to take can be really motivating. So if somebody is maybe a little bit overwhelmed with this conversation and they want to know why would I make all these lifestyle changes, can you just sell us on what they'll experience if they do incorporate these ideas? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You got it because it is hard to start. [00:19:05] What I would do is don't feel like, okay, tomorrow I've got to do this, and you don't have anything you need. Preparation is the key to success. They always say if you want to succeed, the prep and the thought out, the plan is going to make you successful. 
So if you're thinking, if you're listening today and thinking about it, it sounds like a good idea, it sounds a little bit overwhelming, what you can do is frozen berries will last a long time in your freezer. So first of all, stock up on a few bags of frozen berries. Really the only ingredient here that's going to go bad or that you have to get every week is your fresh leafy greens. But even those will probably last in your fridge a week. 
So you stock up on leafy greens. You get some frozen berries. You get some coconut milk or almond milk. And most of these things are easy because it's not going to require a trip to the grocery store every day. So you get the basics there. I could certainly give you my smoothie recipe to share with everyone. Would that be helpful? 
Laura Dugger: That would be awesome. I'll link to that in the show notes. 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: You got it. And then get a blender. Again, you do not have to invest in a real expensive one. If you find you love this and you want it, you can ask for your birthday or Christmas and get a Vitamix because it's really amazing. [00:20:06] But you don't have to have a big old, you know, fancy blender. 
You can even use a shaker cup if you're using protein coconut milk. You just can't blend up the spinach and strawberries. So a really basic version would be a shaker cup, a scoop of protein powder. You can buy powdered wheatgrass juice. 
So if I'm on the go, I'll do a scoop of protein powder, plant-based protein powder, some coconut milk, some chia seed, and a scoop, like a tablespoon of wheatgrass juice. And it's in a powdered form. And that way you don't even need a blender. If I'm in a hotel or traveling, I can do a smoothie just in a shaker cup really easy. 
So what I'd recommend is you prepare. Think about what you want to do. And most of the time when we cheat on ice cream or cookies or whatever, it's one of two things. Most of us, many of us have families. And so people in our house that aren't really eating the same as us. And if we have teenagers or kids, there's going to be stuff in the house that maybe we wouldn't consume but it's going to be there. And you may not be able to control that. [00:21:00] 
But one of the really success tips is go through your pantry. If you have a choice to get rid of all the junk, the stuff that you don't want to be tempted with... I live alone with two puppies. So it's really easy. I don't have any gluten, dairy, soy, sugar, alcohol. I don't have any of that in my house. I can't even cheat if I want to. I don't have ice cream. I don't have any of that. My fridge is literally teas, waters, sparkling waters, leafy greens, fresh berries, fresh fruits, and vegetables, sometimes like chicken or fish. That's it. So it's super easy. 
Nuts and seeds are in the cabinet. So that's my snack. But it makes it so easy because if I have a weak moment, I don't have to worry about it because I would have to drive to the store in order to get something. 
What you'll find with these smoothies if you're just starting out is it really satisfies you and your cravings are going to change. What I'd recommend, if you're like, new year, new ideas, I want to do this, commit to 30 days. 
With your plan to do the smoothies, I would actually recommend that you take out three things that are going to sabotage you. That's gluten, cow's milk, dairy, and sugar. I can almost guarantee you this is... you're getting about $1,000 of advice for free here. Because when my patients first come in, this is one thing that I do for almost everyone. [00:22:10] 
Go off gluten, dairy, and sugar for a month. Try the smoothies in the morning. Just that alone, you will feel so good after 30 days that it will be motivating for you to continue. Many people will have brain fog gone. They've lost eight pounds. They're sleeping better. They have no joint pain. They have no muscle pain. There's amazing things that happen when you clean up the diet. 
Laura Dugger: Wow. You are such a wealth of information. So if listeners do want to learn more, Dr. Jill, where can they find you online? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Thanks, Laura. You can just visit my website, which is my name, Jillcarnahan.com. I have lots and lots of free resources. If you want to look up an elimination diet or the smoothie recipe, you can actually go to my blog and search. And those will all come up. They're all free. 
Laura Dugger: For our team, it makes our day to read a new five-star rating and review on iTunes. Here's one that came in recently from HLS2006. They write, "I love Laura's ability to draw fascinating people and perspectives around her, then use her excellent interview skills and questions to provide practical, thoughtful applications to transformative ideas. She's not afraid of big topics like money, sex, and purpose, but she handles them with grace and curiosity that invites the listeners' private fears and questions into open conversation. Fantastic podcast." [00:23:30] 
Wow, that was humbling to read, but you have no idea how grateful our entire team is that you took the time to share those nice words. When HLS left this review, that person was actually responsible for helping The Savvy Sauce podcast go around the world because iTunes seems to promote our podcast more when we get more ratings and reviews. 
This reputation has provided us the opportunity to bring some amazing guests your way, and we hope you continue to leave positive feedback. Thanks for your help. 
If this is anyone's first time listening, we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so I have one final question for you today, Dr. Jill. What is your savvy sauce? 
Dr. Jill Carnahan: This is going to maybe sound out of context, but it's something I've recently learning and reading. I'm someone who all my life has been a pleaser, and it's a really good thing trying to make people around me happy and comfortable. But what I found is this savvy sauce that we're talking about, I just heard the phrase clear is kind, unclear is unkind. [00:24:33] And I thought that has hit me so deeply in the last week or so because I think, oh, I don't want to burden them. But when you think about clear is kind, and that's with your expectations with your spouse, with your children at work, clear is kind, unclear is actually unkind. 
And some of us who are a little bit more empathetic and we feel deeply and we want to make sure everybody's comfortable, I'm just speaking for myself, that ability to be clear is a little harder. But I was so touched this last week with clear is kind because it really helps to be more clear with the people in our life about our expectations. And I think in general, that's actually a way more kind way to live. 
Laura Dugger: That's an awesome and challenging savvy sauce. Dr. Jill, it's always such a pleasure to interview you. Thank you for making yourself so accessible. I really enjoyed our time together today.
Dr. Jill Carnahan: Thank you, Laura, and I hope to talk again soon. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:25:35] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:26:37] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:27:45] 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:28:40]