*The Savvy Sauce*

94 Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments with Dr. Irwin Goldstein

*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears
 
94. Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Psalm 139:13+14 (NIV) “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.” 
 
Dr. Goldstein has been involved with sexual dysfunction research since the late 1970's and has authored more then 350 publications in the field. His interests include penile microvascular bypass surgery, surgery for dyspareunia, sexual health management post cancer treatment, persistent genital arousal disorder, physiologic investigation of sexual function in men and women, and diagnosis and treatment of sexual dysfunction in men and women. Dr. Goldstein is Director of Sexual Medicine at Alvarado Hospital, Clinical Professor of Surgery at University of California, San Diego and practices medicine at San Diego Sexual Medicine. He is also Editor-in-Chief ofSexual Medicine Reviewsand past Editor ofThe Journal of Sexual Medicine. He is Immediate Past President of the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health and a Past President of the Sexual Medicine Society of North America. He holds a degree in engineering from Brown University and received his medical degree from McGill University. The World Association for Sexual Health awarded the Gold Medal to Dr. Goldstein in 2009 in recognition of his lifelong contributions to the field, in 2012 he received the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health Award for Distinguished Service in Women’s Sexual Health, in 2013 he received the Lifetime Achievement Award by the Sexual Medicine Society of North America, and in 2014 he received the ISSM Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Society for Sexual Medicine. He is happily married to his college sweetheart Sue, and together they have three children and five grandchildren.
 
San Diego Sexual Medicine
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
[00:00:17]
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
Equip for Health is a health and wellness company that works with anyone who wants to achieve great health through simple, sustainable daily changes. They are passionate about improving health from the inside out and having a health journey that is both result-driven and enjoyable at the same time. Check them out today at equipforhealth.com, and make sure you use the code SAVVY at checkout to save 10% on their online course. 
We've received feedback that you all especially appreciate the episodes about sex. Men and women have written to us to share how this podcast feels like a safe place to learn more about helpful treatment options that are available for this private part of their lives. [00:01:18] 
When I first practiced marriage and family therapy, my husband and I were living in San Diego, and I was told about Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who practiced in San Diego and was one of the most sought-after sexual medicine doctors in the world. 
As a therapist, we often collaborate with medical professionals to offer clients the best care possible, so I frequently referred clients to Dr. Goldstein. Now, I'm excited for you to hear this interview with him, as we discuss a few topics we've never discussed before on the Savvy Sauce, including erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, and other fascinating relationships between other parts of our bodies and our genitals. God's intricate design of our bodies continues to amaze me, and this is an exciting field to learn more about. 
Here's our chat. 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Goldstein. 
Irwin Goldstein: Laura, thank you so much for doing this. It's a privilege and an honor, and I look forward to a great next hour. [00:02:18] 
Laura Dugger: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. For listeners who are unaware, your work is very unique. So will you just start us off by sharing how you originally got into this field? 
Irwin Goldstein: I had no idea I was going to end up doing sexual medicine. It was an evolution of a series of forces. I'm from Montreal, Quebec, Canada, and I was a classic Canadian playing hockey and excelling in hockey. I ended up being recruited to Brown University in Providence to play four years of college hockey, which was an absolute blast. I enjoyed every minute of it. 
While I was at Brown, I snuck in a biomedical electrical engineering degree. That was the era of Vietnam, and I decided that there were really no jobs for engineers. That was a sad realization. A bad time. My brother was an M.D., he suggested that I do my engineering through sort of an M.D. relationship. [00:03:18] So I met with the engineers at Brown, and they said that it would be a wise idea to do biomedical engineering via an M.D. degree. 
So I ended up going back to Montreal, McGill University, to do medical school, and I fell in love with medicine. You know, medicine is... each organ in the body is a machine. It's like an amazing engineering machine. I ended up going into urology as a subspecialty area. We helped people. It was a lot of fun. We had a lot of procedures, a lot of diagnostic procedures. 
Through serendipity, the doctor who was my mentor trained in 1973. What happened in 1973 in our field is that a penile implant was developed, and he was one of the original penile implanters. When he started doing penile implants... my first penile implant was 1976. That takes me way back. But urologists entered the world of sexual medicine through the ability to help men with erectile dysfunction through surgery. [00:04:17] 
At the time, in the 70s, it was pretty much exclusively sex therapy, and only a small percentage of people thought they had a biologic basis. When I was entering urology in 1977, we could totally change a man's life who had struggled through, you know, sex therapy approaches, psychiatry approaches, mental health approaches. 
And the reality was we didn't know how penile erection occurred physiologically. There was no physiologic understanding of that. So in 1980, when I graduated urology, I applied to the NIH, and I was awarded a three-year clinical research investigator award, and we studied the erectile physiology. I was funded, at the end of the day, for 23 consecutive years to study erectile physiology. 
One of the outcomes of our research was actually to describe what was the actual chemical involved when you were sexually aroused that actually activated the erectile tissue. That ended up being nitric oxide. [00:05:17] So in 1991, our paper was the very first paper describing nitric oxide. 
That, of course, led to Viagra, and that led me to paths that were remarkable. I mean, how many billions of people have used Viagra? I was the first author on the Viagra paper in the New England Journal of Medicine. We got tons of phone calls. My staff hated me throughout that process. 
But what was fascinating by all the people calling us, asking us about Viagra, more than 90% were women. That was another major event in my life, realizing that there was no parallel path in gynecology to the parallel path in urology for sexual medicine. 
In 1998, we started our first fellowship for women sexual health. Basically, from 1998 to the present, we just opened up a sexual medicine clinic for men and women. It's really been an exciting opportunity to have here in San Diego now, a biopsychosocial facility, you know, 6,000 square feet. [00:06:20] 
We have two pelvic floor physical therapists. We have a sex therapist. I have two NPs, nurse practitioners. We have about six or seven medical assistants. We do about seven or eight research projects and clinical research for studying how things happen and what treatments are available. We do them in a sham-controlled or placebo-controlled prospective trial. Really very cool all the amazing things that are going on. It's been the most joyful ride that I could possibly imagine. So I didn't plan on going to this field, but through serendipity, it took me here. 
Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating. Now I would just love for you to tell us your mission at San Diego Sexual Medicine Clinic and what sets you apart and makes you one of the most sought-after doctors in the world. 
Irwin Goldstein: Wow. That's quite an accolade. Thank you for saying that. I don't know if it's true. But our vision is that we're an international facility that is dedicated to the study of the diagnosis and treatment of men and women or humans with sexual health issues. [00:07:28] We're completely dedicated to that endpoint. 
We spend hours with individual patients. We see the different biopsychosocial aspects, and we sort of merge discussions from psychology to biology to pelvic floor physical therapy and sort of better manage patients with these issues. It's so amazing and shocking how few facilities are really dedicated to that, where there's so many people who have these problems. But we've managed to be at least in San Diego now for 13 years. 
Laura Dugger: Previously on the Savvy Sauce, we've given so much airtime to women and sexual issues, and listeners can go back through our previous episodes and see all of these are still available to download. But now, Dr. Goldstein, I think it would be helpful to first focus more on men, and specifically, let's start with erectile dysfunction. If you don't mind sharing, what is it, who is affected, and what are the treatment options available? [00:08:33] 
Irwin Goldstein: I guess fundamentally, from a sexual perspective, the ability to achieve and maintain an erection that is sufficiently rigid to achieve vaginal penetration. His inability to do that creates shame and embarrassment and humiliation and all kinds of negative aspects.
The physiology of this has only recently been described. It's a pretty fascinating system where there are two erection chambers in the penis. There's an artery that delivers sufficient pressure that would allow the penis to become rigid, at least in an axial direction, in the up-and-down direction, so that it can penetrate through the vagina. 
How much force must the penis bear without buckling, i.e. its axial rigidity, to actually penetrate the average vagina in the United States? It's one kilogram, 2.2 pounds. That's the average vagina. That's not every individual vagina. [00:09:34] 
My whole point is, coming from an engineering background, it became very obvious to me that you could make something as emotionally complex and complicated, yet describe it biologically as a... I don't want to say simplistic, but more hydraulic-based explanation. 
I just had a 21-year-old person who flew to San Diego from Brooklyn to get evaluated because, at age 15, he had acne, took a medication called Accutane, and he believes the Accutane injured his ability to have an erection. He didn't understand why he had these problems. His parents were there. It was a big deal. We unraveled it with his three-hour visit. He ended up having scarring in his erection chamber that we identified on what was called a grayscale ultrasound. 
I guess my whole point of erectile dysfunction, there are psychological reasons, there's neurologic reasons, there's vascular reasons, there's hormonal reasons. [00:10:39] It's just really a detective's game to basically understand the diagnosis. 
For this 20-year-old who just was in the office, the explanation was, you can't study what's wrong with an erect penis, i.e. erectile dysfunction when you study it in the flaccid state. That point is so obvious, yet it's so apparent that most doctors can't make a man in an office have an erection to actually study it and find out what's wrong with it. 
Once you realize that, that's what you have to do, you have to generate a facility that has the ability to achieve penile erection in anyone who walks in the door, so that you can then study it in the erect state and figure out what's wrong with it. 
Depending on the diagnosis, management is the outcome. If it's a hormonal problem, we of course will deal with hormones. If it's a neurologic problem, we have a collaborative effort with a spine surgeon. One of the amazing things we're doing here, our work with spine surgery is simply unbelievable. [00:11:40] We can deal with neurologic issues and then the vascular issues, depending on what we find on the ultrasound studies. 
In summary, erectile dysfunction is the inability to sustain this one kilogram of force where the penis now buckles with the application of a force on the glans penis. Our job is to have the penis be able to bear a kilogram or more weight using as many strategies as we can, both physically and psychologically. 
Laura Dugger: With that, it sounds like it's not targeting just one age group or one demographic of males. Is that right? 
Irwin Goldstein: Yeah. We just actually placed a penile implant in a 16-year-old. That's a little young, but he was in a major car accident, had a bad pelvic fracture, and was unable to have an erection. He was really miserable. We spent a lot of time with him, a lot of psychological help. The penile fracture really injured the nerves and the blood vessels to his penis and both he and his parents decided that was the correct thing to do. He's absolutely now in college, doing well, being happy, being not embarrassed, and having a normal life. [00:12:54] 
We see from teens all the way up to 90-year-old men. I haven't dealt with a 100-year-old person yet, but I would definitely work with anyone at any age.
Laura Dugger: For someone listening who's curious about this, whether they struggle with this or maybe their spouse does, what are some warning signs that would alert them they may be struggling with erectile dysfunction? 
Irwin Goldstein: The penis has to be hard enough to enter the vagina and stay hard to maintain thrusting. A penis that sort of loses erectile rigidity in the process of thrusting or isn't rigid enough to enter the vagina in the first place or any orifice in the first place is very frustrating to the person. 
There is usually an explanation for it, and it requires some person with detective skills to unravel the various reasons. There are biological, psychological, and musculoskeletal. A facility that we happen to have assembled, which has the ability to look at all the different angles and contributions to the dysfunction is I think the ideal way to understand what's wrong. [00:14:04] 
Once you understand what's wrong, we're really good at fixing it, because it takes out the mystery. If it's a hormonal thing, we'll work until we resolve the hormonal thing. Neurologic, we'll fix the neurologic. If it's vascular, we'll really work in depth with vascular. We have some really new, fabulous, what we call disease modification strategies, as well as some very good symptomatic treatment strategies where we're able to really help the penis get and maintain its rigidity so that function can occur. 
Laura Dugger: I'm so grateful for people like you who are able to do this if someone maybe has experienced trauma, or you talked about that male who had been in a car accident. 
Irwin Goldstein: Let me tell you another quick story. This was an 18-year-old who presented with erectile dysfunction. At age 14, he was diagnosed with lymphoma. He had one year of multiple different chemotherapy agents. The irony of all this is one of the chemotherapy agents causes scarring of the muscle of the heart so that he always had to see a cardiologist through the last four or five years to make sure the agents that cured his lymphoma, because he's now cured of it, didn't cause damage to the heart muscle. [00:15:16] 
Of course, the muscle of the heart and the muscle of the penis are really parallel and analogous tissues. Of course, no one thought that the chemotherapy could injure the penis muscles, but of course they did. All of his erectile dysfunction [inaudible 00:15:32] going to chemotherapy, he was said to, "Oh, this is psychological. You're worried about the cancer, blah, blah, blah."
Then he finally ended up on our doorstep. We did the appropriate grayscale ultrasound studies during full erection. You can see the scarring of the penis. The erectile tissue homogeneity was not there. All I'm saying to you is it's not really a mystery. It's a hydraulic failure, and you just have to unravel the basis for the hydraulic failure, and then we can get on to treatment. 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible how your background with first engineering and then all of the other medical school all come together. Let's talk about another prevalent issue then in males. Can you just teach us more about premature ejaculation? [00:16:16] 
Irwin Goldstein: Well, that's one of our coolest things that we're doing right now is we're actually curing premature ejaculation. I can't tell you how exciting that is. There's another serendipitous story. We love serendipity. 
We have this machine called penile shockwave, and we didn't really discuss it during erectile dysfunction, but we purchased the machine for men with erectile dysfunction. This is a device that generates sound waves that travel faster than the speed of sound. Since ours is electrohydraulic, it comes out over 3,000 miles an hour out of the probe into whatever tissue you're aiming it at. 
So for men with erectile dysfunction, we generate this energy with the idea of activating stem cells, endogenous stem cells within the penis, so that they can replicate and then make more downstream cells, which is a healthy muscle, to make the penis more functional. So that's the idea. 
In certain patients, as we apply the shockwave energy to the various parts of the penis, the front part, the side parts, what we call the dorsal and ventral parts, there's an area called the frenulum, which is the sensitive part of a man's penis. [00:17:23] It's on the front part of the penis called the ventral surface. 
In usual, we can use relatively high energies to deliver the appropriate shockwave energy into the penis. In some men, when you apply the shockwave energy to their front part of the penis, they scream with pain. And it's like, wow, what am I doing? And we have to lower the energy dramatically. And then it dawned on me, every one of those people who couldn't tolerate the energy at the front part of the penis had what? Laura, what's the answer? 
Laura Dugger: Premature ejaculation. 
Irwin Goldstein: And I said, Oh my... this is another form of a penile dysesthesia. Let me explain a dysesthesia. So, aesthesia is feeling. Anesthesia is the profession that takes away feeling so you can operate. Dysesthesia is dysfunctional feeling. We finally had a tool, which we have never had before, and it ended up being the shockwave, that actually was able to identify a man who had a penile dysesthesia, a region of his penis that was so severely hypersensitive that any touch resulted in him having an ejaculation. [00:18:30] 
So, we've now been able to map out the region of the dysesthesia. We can take a Q-tip and point out that on the side of the penis, a Q-tip causes like, say, a sensation of a 1 out of 10. But when you touch the frenulum and the region around the frenulum, that's like a 12 out of 10. And if you go like 3 millimeters off the frenulum, you're back to the 1 out of 10. This is really oval region of amazing supersensitivity. 
So, we've now developed an in-house surgical excision of the hypersensitive tissue with now resolution of people's ability to control ejaculation. It is really fascinating, I have to say. We have to do more of them. We haven't really published this stuff yet, but we've done a whole number of them, and we've really changed people's lives. So, it's very cool. 
But that's probably a subgroup of PE. I'm sure not everybody has that. But it's been really fun to unravel at least this subgroup of men.
Laura Dugger: I can't imagine how exciting that would be once you make a discovery like that and you can help so many people. [00:19:33] 
Irwin Goldstein: Well, you know, it's the link between... we do men and women. So, most doctors or urologists do men, and most gynecologists only do women. So, it's not that many who do both. But if you have the ability to do both... we treat genital dysesthesia all the time in women. 
One of the genital dysesthesias that we treat are women who have unwanted, unremitting arousals all the time, persistent genital arousal. We see women with persistent unwanted itch, and they can't wear leggings, they can't wear anything tight on their body because it just itches everywhere. And that's another neurologic thing. 
So, the fact that we're familiar with genital dysesthesia through the woman's world allowed us to now identify a new genital dysesthesia in men. But nobody's really thought of it that way because, of course, most healthcare providers in this field sort of separate into the two genders, but don't do both. 
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Laura Dugger: Are there any other common issues that you see people struggling with on a daily basis that you could easily treat if they would be willing to make an appointment with you? 
Irwin Goldstein: I saw a whole bunch of people today, but since they're fresh in my mind, there was a, what, 27-year-old woman. She's actually a physician assistant who is on birth control pills for contraception. It's so sad. There's like 30-plus million women on this. 
The nature of birth control pills is that they raise a protein that's made by the liver called sex hormone-binding globulin. But it's actually a protein or globulin that binds the sex hormones and thereby renders them unavailable to the tissues. They're stuck inside this globulin. [00:22:47] 
One of the consequences of birth control pills is that everyone, all 30 million women, have a low testosterone because one of the things that the sex hormone binding globulin is very efficient at binding is the sex hormone called testosterone. So 30 million women are being, I'll use the word iatrogenic, meaning that doctors are doing this, causing a low hormonal state in women while they're getting what they believe to be is a safe and efficient contraceptive method. 
Well, the low testosterone has consequences in people. They have low interest. They get depressed. They get sad. They have muscle strength weakness. They have soft bones. But in particular, the opening to the vagina is very testosterone dependent. That area is called the vestibule. It's a region very poorly examined by most providers. You have to stretch it laterally because it's facing in the anterior-posterior position and the front-to-back position. 
If you examine women with pain, and there are, God knows, millions and millions of women with pain who have entrance pain during sexuality, it's being caused by their contraception. How crazy sad that is. [00:23:58] 
So you ask something simple to do. If you're a woman with sadness, low libido, and entrance pain, and you happen to be on the birth control pill, let me tell you a very simple strategy would be to change contraceptive systems to an actually more efficient system called the LARC, long-acting reversible contraception. An example would be an IUD or an example would be the Nexplanon or Implanon, the glass rods that go on the arm. Those do not affect SHPG. They do not affect testosterone. They do not cause the sadness. They do not cause the pain. And then we would provide a little bit of testosterone cream to get testosterone back into the tissues and resolve the pain. 
So that's easy-peasy. It's just that it's missed by so many people. So many women are on the pill, they just assume, since all their women friends have pain, they say, Oh, it's just natural to have pain when you have intercourse. I don't know anyone who doesn't have that. That's sort of sad. 
Laura Dugger: That's very sad because pain would always be a signal that your body is trying to let you know about something. [00:25:01] 
Irwin Goldstein: Yeah. But some people say, well, it's sex, and it's stretching my vagina, and it's supposed to be associated with pain because all my girlfriends have pain. It's not true, though.
Laura Dugger: I love that you shed light on this topic. But let's transition to a topic that many other listeners are interested in, which is hormones. Can you just give us a hormones 101? 
Irwin Goldstein: We can talk first men, then women. Critical hormones in men, of course, are testosterone. Testosterone is a product made by the gonad called the testicle. It's under regulatory function by messages from what's called the hypothalamus and pituitary. They release what are called gonadotropins, which are proteins that stimulate the testicle. 
So there's two kinds of low testosterone, one where the testicle itself has failed. That's called primary testicular dysfunction — sort of like a menopause situation. Just today we had a guy who, at age 15, 16, 17, 18, did intense weightlifting. [00:26:04] I don't know if you know about weightlifting, but the trainers sort of sell you anabolic steroids. His testicles shriveled because they were no longer needed to make testosterone. He was taking so much outside source testosterone so he could be the weightlifter. 
But now that he's finished weightlifting, he has essentially no testosterone in his body. He's a young guy, and his testicles are really the sizes of raisins. Testicles are normally egg-sized. So that's primary hypogonadism. We call that hypergonadotropic hypogonadism because the gonadotropins are elevated trying to stimulate the testicle. So that's one type. 
The more common type is where the hypothalamus and the pituitary won't release the gonadotropins to stimulate the testicles. So that's called hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and that's called secondary hypogonadism. So we have good treatments for that. We have drugs that actually increase the amount of gonadotropins to help stimulate the testicles. [00:27:02] 
So testosterone is widely FDA-approved as a treatment for men as opposed to women. We have all kinds of strategies, both endogenous and exogenous, to treat men with low testosterone. 
Another important hormone is thyroid. It's sort of more common to have women with low thyroid, but men do have low thyroid. We pick that up more often than we should. There's another one. I have a healthcare provider who's a colleague of mine who had really low interest in sex, and we got a bunch of hormones in his prolactin, which is actually a hormone released by the pituitary gland to make breasts make milk, prolactin. 
His prolactin was about 20 times higher than it should be, so we got an MRI of his pituitary gland and a little tiny tumor called a prolactinoma there, and we treated his prolactinoma with medication. His libido came back, and he was very happy. He's a good friend of mine. Sort of weird that it was a friend that had that tumor. [00:28:01] 
But hormones in men on a 101 level mean that every person who walks into your office with a sexual dysfunction should have at least 9 or 10 hormones measured, including the thyroid and the prolactin, and, of course, testosterone. 
Now for women, the big issue is, of course, menopause. Menopause happens at age 51 on average. There's a lot of controversy that hormones are going to kill you and cause cancer and cause heart attacks and strokes. Most of that is just false, incorrect information. 
A correct situation for a woman would be careful monitoring of hormones with blood levels that they're in an appropriate level and what we call vulvoscopy monitoring, so we can actually monitor the tissues. During vulvoscopy, a woman, I call it evening the score, a woman can actually, who normally can't see inside the vagina to see the tissues, they actually watch their genitals on a monitor while we're actually doing the examination. So they get to see all the inside tissue and all the damage that low hormones do. 
And what's cool is that as we give back the hormones in the monitored way, so we can follow them and keep them at an ideal value. [00:29:09] We can watch the tissues become not atrophic, not painful, not erythematous, not with pallor, not with any of the usual findings that you see in women with menopause. So hormones are a fabulous and very safe way to maintain sexual function in human beings who have sexual dysfunction. 
For women, we do three sex steroid hormones. We do testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. Of course, we also follow thyroid and prolactin, but for men, it's primarily testosterone. For women, it's three, testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. 
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. So, for women, it's menopause that will usually be the onset of the hormones really affecting their sexuality. Are there any other likely contributors or seasons of life for men or women that would throw things out of whack? 
Irwin Goldstein: So, I've discussed with you the issue of women and birth control pills, because that certainly throws their hormones out of whack. [00:30:10] Just to refresh the memory, the sex hormone binding globulin, it gets too high, and it binds all the testosterone, so their actual, what's called free testosterone, is quite low. So that's medication that throws hormones out of whack. 
But men have their own versions of bad hormones. A lot of men find that their hair is thinning. They don't like that, and they want to have a full head of hair. So there's a drug called Propecia, or finasteride, that is a strategy to increase hair. Well, it's a strategy that stops the dihydrotestosterone, which is the hormone that is not happy to hair. High dihydrotestosterone injures the roots. 
So the strategy by taking finasteride, or Propecia, is to lower dihydrotestosterone. But just to remind you and your listeners, that dihydrotestosterone is actually a critical hormone for the health of the penis tissue. So, you can't get it both ways. [00:31:07] 
So if you want to intervene, you put your hair at benefit and your penis at risk. And we see countless men who are taking hair loss drugs who have sexual problems as a result of their ingestion of that treatment. 
Laura Dugger: This is so many different avenues that we wouldn't link together, and you found these correlations. 
Sorry to interrupt, but we just wanted to remind you to give us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. This helps more people discover The Savvy Sauce and ultimately hear the good news of Jesus. Thanks for partnering with us. We truly have the kindest and most helpful listeners. 
I'm just in awe of all of this. Is there anything else that comes to mind that we wouldn't be aware of? Like nursing moms, we've always heard that hormones change at that point or during pregnancy, but those are more expected. 
Irwin Goldstein: Yes. So during breastfeeding, so postpartum... We had another woman who walked in today who had an episiotomy. She had a sort of traumatic birth, and the episiotomy incision would not heal. [00:32:12] She's three and a half months out and the wound still has not healed. One of the doctors tried to cauterize it with silver nitrate and it still didn't work. It was very painful to the woman. The doctor wanted to operate on her, so she came to me for a second opinion. We're gonna figure out non-surgical strategies to help her non-healing episiotomy. 
But my point is, during breastfeeding where she is in, the hormones are extremely low. Estradiol is very low, testosterone is very low. The tissues aren't very healthy. It's almost the equivalent of menopause, but it's not really menopause. But the ovary is not roaring out with lots of hormones as it otherwise should. 
The dilemma, of course, at least that she has to face is I'd love to give her some hormones, but she doesn't want to put the child at risk by taking hormones. So we have to figure out a strategy to get the tissue happy but not hurt the baby. 
Laura Dugger: Yes, very complex. One more topic that I want to briefly discuss, because your practice is ahead of its time, will you tell us a little bit more about your new regenerative therapy and your state-of-the-art cutting-edge therapy? [00:33:22] 
Irwin Goldstein: Thank you for asking. 10 years ago in Europe, actually from Israel, the first-ever shockwave device was applied to men with erectile dysfunction with the idea that the energy would give mitochondria... I don't know if you know what mitochondria are. They're the parts of a cell inside the cytoplasm that provide energy. So we can actually increase the ATP, which is the energy source of a mitochondria in the stem cells that exist in the penis. They can replicate with ease and make more opportunity to make more downstream cells, which are the penis, healthy, smooth muscle cells. 
So that was the idea. It was proposed 10 years ago. And it's widely, widely used in Europe, all over Europe, all over South America. The FDA has more or less blocked the introduction of shockwave devices for the same indication in the United States until the usual trials are done, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-institutional trials, like Viagra had to go through. [00:34:22] 
Those are $500 million trials. So pharma like Pfizer can do that, but device companies don't have that sort of background. So it's been a situation where you could get this treatment in Europe, but you can't get it in the U.S., it was very frustrating. 
We did a clinical trial with shockwave, like five or six years ago, trying to get the FDA to allow us to eventually get the shockwave device in. The company realized it would be too expensive, so they dropped out. I was at a meeting, In This Wish meeting, International Society of Study of Women's Sexual Health, at a women's sexual meeting, and displaying was one of these shockwave companies. They finally got clearance from the FDA to get the device into the U.S. for three things: amelioration of pain, increasing blood flow, and connective tissue activation. 
So with that clearance, and the designation by the FDA that this device was non-significant risk, NSR, to humans, we were able to get the device into our office. [00:35:24] Now, we're doing the sham-controlled, prospective placebo-controlled trial for men with ED with the shockwave, but we're now using the shockwave for many, many other uses. 
We talked about premature ejaculation, but men who have these curved penises, Peyronie's disease. We're using shockwave therapy for that. We're doing women who have pain. We're doing vestibular shockwave therapy for their vestibules. This woman who had an unhealing wound from the postpartum, we're doing shockwave therapy on her wound. It's amazing for diabetic ulcers and other wounds to increase blood flow to the region, so we're helping her heal without surgery that wound I talked about. So that's been an amazing opportunity for us to help people. 
The last part of shockwave therapy that I can share with you that's really cool is the 10 years of shockwave therapy for rectal dysfunction has always been on men in the flaccid state. So the men just show up in the office and they come in and they shockwave the penis as it is as they enter, which is their flaccid state. [00:36:25] 
When I started realizing, that was ridiculous. There's a thing called acoustic impedance, which means that tissue that's very thin, like a flaccid penis being pushed on by a probe. The diameter is only like a centimeter or less. Whereas a full erection, you can get diameters of more than six centimeters. So the acoustic impedance would be very high in somebody who has a wider tissue presented to the shockwave. 
So we have now done for the last three or four months only shockwave therapy during men with penile erection, which has never been done before, but it makes the most sense. And it's very obvious that that's gonna be how all people do that in the future. 
Laura Dugger: Is there anything else that we haven't covered yet that you would like to mention? 
Irwin Goldstein: Anyone who has a sexual problem, we will unravel it as best as we can and work with them. That's just who we are. 
Laura Dugger: If listeners are intrigued after this conversation and they want to explore more options for treatment, where would you first direct them? [00:37:26] 
Irwin Goldstein: We have a website, San Diego Sexual Medicine. It's an inventive and exciting website with lots of information about men and women and their sexual issues. 
Laura Dugger: Our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Dr. Goldstein, what is your savvy sauce? 
Irwin Goldstein: I'm a big proponent... my father taught me this, and I'm sure his father taught him this. So this has gone through the generations. I tried to teach my own kids and I think we were successful. We're big proponents of work hard, play hard. When I go to the office, I'm all working hard. But when I leave, I love playing hard. 
One of the savvy sauce things that I love doing with my wife is date night. So playing hard for us is date night. I encourage people to set a time in your life to just be together, do exciting and fun things and be intimate with each other and find that we can not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. [00:38:31] 
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. Love hearing that. Dr. Goldstein, thank you for your skilled work that impacts so many people in one of the most private areas of their life. Your work clearly matters and I'm so very grateful that you educated us today. Thank you for being my guest. 
Irwin Goldstein: Laura, thank you so much for doing this. You're awesome. Your San Diego days were awesome. Good luck in your new place and thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it. 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:39:34] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:36] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:41:38] 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

93 Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn

*Disclaimer: This episode contains potions of adult material and is intended for mature listeners only*
 
93. Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Colossians 3:13 (AMP) “bearing graciously with one another, and willingly forgiving each other if one has a cause for complaint against another; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so should you forgive.” 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author and popular speaker.  Today, she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace.  Her groundbreaking research-based books have sold more than 2 million copies in 23 languages and are widely read in homes, counseling centers and corporations worldwide.
 
Shaunti’s findings are regularly featured in media as diverse as The Today Show and Focus on the Family, The New York Times and Cosmo.  She (often with her husband, Jeff) speaks at 50 events a year around the world. Shaunti and her husband Jeff live in Atlanta with their teenage daughter and son, and two cats who think they are dogs.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Shaunti’s Website 
Books by Shaunti Feldhahn:
For Men Only
For Women Only
For Couples Only
For Parents Only
Thriving in Love and Money
Thriving in Love and Money Workbook
The Kindness Challenge
The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Couples
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:18]
 
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
 
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 
 
Have you ever had an interaction with the opposite sex that left you puzzled? I hope you conclude this chat with more clarity, because today's guest is an expert in the field of gender differences. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn is the best-selling author of books such as For Men Only and For Women Only. She is going to unpack the most common insecurities each gender experiences and share ways we can understand each other better. [00:01:24] 
 
Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Shaunti. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, it's great to be with you. 
 
Laura Dugger: I know that you have an analytical background, and I would love to hear how you unexpectedly switched careers to focus more on relationships. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: This was a right-hand turn that I was not expecting. I actually had gotten my graduate degree in a very sort of analytical field and then went to work on Wall Street. I mean, I was in the finance arena, and I was analyzing large Japanese banks, but really developing some analytical experience. 
 
Then when Jeff and I, my husband and I, moved to Atlanta, this whole thing started because I had this opportunity to write a couple of novels. [00:02:11] One of the main characters in my novel was a man, and I realized I didn't know how to put thoughts in his head. Like, I had no idea as... you know, I'm a woman. What do I know about what a guy would be thinking? But I had to say what my main character was thinking. 
 
This whole thing started because I would interview men, and I would say, Okay, if we'd be out to dinner with another couple or something, I'd go to the other husband and say, "Can I ask you a question? Here's the scene in this novel that I'm writing. What would you be thinking if this was you in this situation?" And as these guys started telling me what they'd be thinking, I was so shocked by some of the things I was hearing. And it sort of sparked me to do more of these interviews and more of these conversations. 
 
I realized at some point that the stuff I was hearing was really, really foundational stuff. These weren't things the guys said, they kind of thought or they felt like, you know, it happened every couple of months. [00:03:13] The stuff that they were describing were things that they as a man thought or felt like every day, multiple times a day. 
 
I had been married maybe eight years at that point. Of course, I'm like, "Why haven't I heard this before?" I think that's when the analyst hat went on. And really, it was amazing. Just very providential was able to turn that into a big survey of men to go, "Okay, what percentage of guys does this apply to?" 
 
And that really started this whole thing, because when that became For Women Only, the book, For Women Only, and it became a big bestseller, the revenue from that ended up funding the next research study and then the next and then the next. I sort of stumbled into really innovating this new type of social research. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is incredible. And just starting with a few simple questions and your curiosity, it sounds like their answers must have been very different from the ones you would have naturally thought. Is that true? [00:04:18] 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Like I said, the thing that really shocked me was that I was shocked and that the men actually quite often... like they didn't realize they were saying anything shocking. They thought that we knew this. I would come home and I would tell Jeff, "Guess what this guy told me?" And he would nod, you know. And he told me later that half the time when I did that, he was thinking to himself, "You mean you didn't know that? What about that did you not get before?" It really started showing me there's this huge disconnect in some of these things that are so foundational for both men and women. 
 
Laura Dugger: So then when you think back, what was your most shocking discovery about the gender differences? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Probably the biggest thing that was the starting point of the shocking discoveries — it's really what got me started — was hearing these really awesome men, like men I went to church with, men I really trusted, like we were very good friends with them and their wives, and I knew how much they tried to, for example, honor women. [00:05:30] And yet when I was asking, Okay, so here's a scene, and I was describing this one scene in the book where there's this male character and he's in the office with a female character who is wearing like, I don't know, like a tight skirt or something, like a kind of a short tight skirt, and I was asking, "Okay, what would the character be thinking?"
 
And these amazing, trustworthy, honorable men were describing these thoughts like, "Oh, well, she just wants me to picture her sexually. She's just trying to use her body to sell the deal or whatever. And I'm like, what? She's just trying to look fashionable and she's just trying to look attractive." And they're like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. She's not trying to look attractive. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's trying to trigger sexual thoughts in the men around her." And I'm like, "Okay, whoa, what? And I was really shocked, honestly. 
 
Laura Dugger: Because women, I'm sure if you surveyed them, that is not at all their intention or what they're thinking. [00:06:30] 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: No, it's not. As a matter of fact, eventually I did survey the women. Because this is what we do right now, we do these massive nationally representative studies. In one of those studies where I did actually do a study on men in the workplace and, you know, we had a control group of women. And so we asked the women, If you dress like that at work or anywhere, I suppose, you know, what are you trying to do? And I can't remember the number. It was something like, I don't know, 18 percent or some number like that of women who said, Oh, absolutely. I'm trying to get him to look at my body. I'm trying to get him to view me sexually. I want him to view me that way. There were some. It was actually a higher number than I thought it would be, something like 18% or 20%. But the vast majority, you know, 80 percent of women are like, What? No, I'm just trying to feel attractive. 
 
Eventually, we realized and I don't know how much you want to get into this, Laura, but we actually realized once we started digging into what's kind of underneath this disconnect between men and women, that there's actually a part of the brain in the male brain that is actually stimulated in a way that literally does not exist in the female brain. [00:07:50] And it's why we have no equivalent. 
 
There is literally a part of the male brain that when they see an image, it stimulates the center near the back of the brain to view stuff like that very sexually. And when women see an attractive man, that part of the brain isn't stimulated at all, and there's no sexual temptation. 
 
So we women have no idea that it exists in men and men have no idea that women don't know what's happening. The hard part of this is that it's thrown at men every day. I have a 16-year-old son and he's trying really very, very hard to try to honor women. He's trying to take his thoughts captive. You know, he's trying to do a good job at that. 
 
The ironic part is that this is actually the hardest for men who want to honor women. Because if they're trying to honor and respect women, they try to look away. They try to take their thoughts captive. They try not to think those things and think about other things like baseball scores. You know, like what else can I think about? Which is great. [00:08:53] 
 
But those are the people who care about honoring women. The ones who don't care about that, who don't want to respect women, they'll just let their thoughts go wherever. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's fascinating. I remember being at a conference one time when you helped the women understand this concept. You wrote up on the board, don't read this. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. 
 
Laura Dugger: You correlated it and said this would be the same thing as an attractive woman walking by, that honorable man may not want to look at her, but he still knows she's there. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. It's the brain. The male brain can't not notice this. He can choose what to do with it. And that's the thing that is very easily misunderstood. So that's one of the things I want to make sure that I say very clearly. There is a wiring in the male brain that is stimulated, biologically. He has no choice in the matter. It's like you rub your hand up somebody's arm, those nerve endings are stimulated. [00:09:55] You can't not have that. But he can choose what to do with it. 
 
And that's the issue is where so many men who are trying to be honorable and trying to respect women, that's the choice that they have to make over and over and over and over all day, which is to look away, to bounce their eyes, to take those thoughts captive, to think about my wife instead of that image. And it's obviously challenging. They have to do it, but it's challenging. 
 
I think that's the hard part is a lot of women, our brains aren't wired that way to be stimulated in a similar situation. So we don't know that it happens, and so we think to ourselves, at least what I used to think, it's none of his business what I'm wearing. He shouldn't be looking. I don't realize that guys are like, what does that even mean? Because their brains are being stimulated even when they really, really do not want them to be. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think just like your books often do, it provides compassion for the other gender. [00:10:55] And so then even going back to those first two bestselling books, For Men Only, For Women Only, of all those research findings, will you just give maybe two examples of something that both men and women can learn and grab onto today so they can start enjoying their relationship more? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, sure. Absolutely. Well, probably the most important one... and this is what we've seen over the years. By the way, we... I don't know if you knew this. Because we had done so much research ongoing. We ended up putting out new editions of the books just a couple of years ago because there was so much new stuff that we were learning along the way. 
 
After all of that time, the most important thing statistically is actually to recognize that men and women have two very different sets of primary insecurities running under the surface. I mean, to some degree, you know, we all have insecurities about everything. [00:11:56] Like, you know, we all have self-doubts. We know what that feels like. 
 
But these are ones that are basically kind of a raw nerve for men and a raw nerve for women, and they're different. And if that's true, what it means by definition is that something different is going to hurt your spouse's feelings than would hurt yours. You're hitting a nerve that's different. 
 
And so what we tell the women is that our men look so strong and confident in themselves, and we think that's how they feel about themselves and we don't realize it's just a mask and that underneath the surface, there's so much self-doubt. And it's essentially a feeling like, am I any good at what I do? Do I have what it takes at all? Like, I really, really want to be a great husband, for example, or I really want to be a great dad or I want to be a great salesman. [00:12:52] Like, they want to tackle a challenge, right? But the guys described it as really doubting that they know what they're doing and really feeling like their wife or someone is going to discover that he's just a terrible husband and he's been masquerading this whole time. 
 
So there's a lot of vulnerability under the surface. And that's one of the reasons why there's this massive emotional need for knowing that the most important person in his life, the person who knows him the best, really appreciates him, really kind of believes in him. That there's this huge need to hear that and to feel that because it speaks to that question under the surface. 
 
On the women's side, what the men don't realize is that to them, we look like these beautiful women that they really love, they adore, and they don't realize that we have this huge question under the surface for us that's like, Am I lovable? And they don't know that that question doesn't go away when we get married. [00:13:58] They kind of think, "Well, of course, she knows I love her. We're living in the same house. Of course, she does." 
 
And they don't realize, no, in marriage it just morphs to, "Does he really love me? Is he glad he married me?" It could be an underground question under the surface. But man, when that's triggered, you know, you have an argument and he's displeased with you and he heads off to work and he's angry, I mean, guys don't realize that's really roiling inside. And there's this huge need to be reassured. And also really a need just every day to know that this man who I'm amazed that he wants to marry me, he wants to live his life with me, that he's still excited about that. Like, to know that every day that he loves me, that's the need that women tend to have. 
 
These are about 80%, 20% on both sides. Depending on the survey, it was anywhere between 75% and 85% of men and women had these. It's not 100%. But it's pretty common. [00:14:59] 
 
Laura Dugger: So for the man, he doesn't want to feel inadequate. Something practical that we can do, you're saying, is encourage or look for every opportunity to sincerely speak life into him. Is that right? Or even just saying thank you. I know you've pointed that out before. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. The thing that we don't realize, and it really is both sides, but let's just tackle the women, the wives who are listening and wanting to know how to sort of speak life into their husband. We don't realize how often we're doing the opposite of that without ever intending to. These little things like, why did you put the kids in those clothes? They need a jacket. It's cold outside. And we're just making a comment or we're asking for information or we're annoyed. We don't realize that because the guy has this underground question, am I any good as a dad, am I any good at what I do, and what he tried to do was dress the kids well, he hears that as you are an utter failure as a father. [00:16:09] 
 
Now, I think that's crazy but that's the way a guy hears it. And hearing it once, it's painful. Hearing it twice, it's more painful. If he hears stuff like that throughout the day and it hits the nerve over and over and over, it's so painful because he starts feeling like, "I can't. I'm no good."
 
For a guy, if you ever hear him say, "Nothing I do is ever good enough for you," oh, boy, watch out. That's the statement of a guy who's just been shredded, even though you have no intention of shredding him that way. No intention. It's just you're wired differently. You don't realize it for him it's all about, I tried to do this, whatever "this" is, tried to clean the kitchen, dress the kids, whatever it is, and I failed. For a man, that's really, really hard. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to have those examples because then to be proactive, when you see something and you can sincerely call it out or thank them, I would think it would have the opposite effect. [00:17:18] 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Well, actually, and you referred to it, we actually did one of our research studies because I'm kind of a research nerd when it comes to trying to figure this out. I really did want to know what you could tell a man that would build him up emotionally in the same way that "I love you" builds us up as women. Because, you know, when you hear your man say, "I love you" because it speaks to our insecurity, am I lovable, it really hits you. 
 
I learned really quickly that it doesn't work to tell your husband, "Oh, honey, I appreciate you so much or I respect you so much. Just actually saying those words doesn't really hit him. But when you say "thank you" to a guy, that's his kind of equivalent of "I love you" because it says I noticed this thing you did. "Thank you for dressing the kids. Thank you for cleaning the kitchen. You were so tired and I saw that you took the kids and played with them anyway. You're such a good dad." [00:18:15] I mean, even little things like thanks for putting gas in my car, it says, I noticed this thing you did and it was good, and I appreciate it. That's like life to a guy. 
 
Laura Dugger: Because that's saying he's doing good with those external motivators. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
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Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business. 
 
Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. 
 
Laura Dugger: Let's also flip it and speak to the husbands listening now. For the wife, you're reminding them that this is an everyday pursuit. How would you communicate to them? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: What we tell the guys is the same way that sometimes maybe your wife is hitting your nerve, making you feel that sense of failure or self-doubt, your wife has the "am I lovable, would he choose me all over again?" [00:20:24] So you as a guy also need to know how to avoid hitting it, kind of what to do maybe if you do accidentally hit the nerve, but also how to build her up. 
 
So avoiding the negative side, literally, it's just recognizing what is it that's going to kind of raise that question in her? Like is he glad he married me? Does he really love me? Guys think it's ridiculous that we would even ask that. But we tell them there's no switch in a woman's brain that gets flipped to the "oh, now I feel permanently loved" position. She has that question every day. 
 
And you don't realize that conflict or you withdrawing... you're upset with each other, you've got to get to work, you drive away, and the thought of the argument just goes out of your head. Like you turn it off because you have to focus on work. And you don't realize she's not turning that off. It's not because she's holding a grudge. It's not because she's refusing to let it go. It's literally that question has now risen up. [00:21:28] And she's kind of going, "Are we okay? It's a painful question. 
 
So we tell the guys, reassuring her, recognizing that maybe her raw nerve has been hit, and reassuring her is huge. Like before you go away to work, literally saying something like, "Look, I'm angry, I need to get to work but listen, we're okay. We'll talk about this tonight. I love you" and leaving. That's huge for a woman because it tells her that all this was was just an argument. This isn't that "I'm not glad I married you". 
 
That's the sort of avoiding the negative side. The positive thing we tell the guys is, picture it like she having the question: Is he glad he married me every day? That's in there every day, even if it's subconscious. So she's kind of subconsciously looking for the answer to that every day. [00:22:28] 
 
You can literally answer that for her by reaching across and taking her hand when you're walking across a parking lot. That says, I'm so glad I married you. You put your arm around her in church or sitting at a restaurant with friends. And that says, you're mine, right? I'm so glad I married you. That to her is what speaks life. 
 
Again, this isn't 100%. You know, this is about 80%. This isn't going to necessarily be exactly what that 20% needs. But even for the 20%, we found that this was a good thing. It just wasn't maybe oxygen the way it is for the rest of us. 
 
Laura Dugger: Either way, if they do fall into this 80% or not, it's at least going to bring up some good conversation. And you can start to ask each other, is this what you identify with or is there something else? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, exactly. Honestly, one of the things that we found that's the most helpful about this... I do pastoral interviews a lot. You know, Jeff and I will do marriage conferences or I'll do women's events. [00:23:28] But one of the formats that's become really popular, honestly, for us, is a pastor will bring us in or me and interview me on stage as the sermon time for church because then everybody hears about it all at once and it kind of can develop a common language. 
 
And one of the things that we've noticed is literally the couples will walk out of church and the wife and the husband will turn to each other and go, "Really? Really? Is this true?" Again, if they're in the 80%, they'll kind of go, "Yeah." "What?" You know, you've got all these baffled husbands who are like, "But of course I adore you." And the women are like, "Of course, I appreciate you." It's such a good conversation starter just to go back to the very beginning and really understand these insecurities under the surface. 
 
Laura Dugger: I highly recommend these books because thinking back, my husband and I went through them together when we were engaged and we had so many of those moments that you're describing of, "Wait, this isn't you, right?" And light bulb moments. [00:24:42] 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: You should have seen me when I was researching the thing. I mean, half the time, I'm like, "This isn't you, right?"
 
Laura Dugger:  And now that you've researched and then taught on this topic for years, what habits have you personally implemented to improve your marriage, specifically as it relates to you understanding Jeff better?
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Pretty much everything, honestly. We had a fine marriage. We were more happy than not. We generally had a decent marriage, but there were plenty of times that we didn't. I mean, Jeff says this isn't true, but I know it's true that often it was really because of how clueless I was of how my words, it was usually my words, were affecting my husband. 
 
I'm a pretty strong, opinionated personality, if you hadn't noticed and I just didn't realize I was shredding my husband half the time. I mean, little things. Well, they seemed little to me. I didn't realize how big they were to all men. [00:25:47] 
 
I can still remember when this started to come up, we were at our friend's home group for church. We were at their house, and Jeff and I were like, "Okay, it's kind of time to go." And Jeff looked at his watch and said, "You know what? We really do need to get home because the kitchen sink is busted. I've been trying to fix the faucet, and I really want to get back there and see if I can fix it." Everybody's kind of standing up and putting on their coats, and I kind of joked, "Honey, you've never been able to fix anything in your life. Just call a plumber." I didn't realize the chill in the air from the six men in the room was related to me having basically just said to everybody in the room, I think my husband is a worthless idiot. 
 
Now, I would never have felt that that was what I was saying. I adore my husband. I hugely appreciate him. He's an amazing guy. I just had no idea that what I had just said in front of a whole room full of people was exactly the opposite. [00:26:48] That was sort of the beginning of the education of me as I started doing these surveys with men. Oh, it was so convicting. And I had years of habits that I had to unlearn. But thankfully... I always say God is merciful. Thankfully, I started unlearning them. 
 
This is the case for this whole topic. Once we realize what's in the heart of our spouse, once we understand what's under the surface, yeah, we may still have habits that need to be unlearned, but you want to unlearn them. You're motivated because you realize, Oh my word, I've been hurting the most important person in my life. And I don't want to do that. 
 
Laura Dugger: And if these can just be a little piece of knowledge, just reading, you know, maybe a chapter a month out loud or asking each other questions, that's so encouraging that that can improve your relationship. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, it's the simplest stuff too. [00:27:49] Honestly, this has become so convicting and so sobering. Because we get these emails all the time or, you know, somebody posts on social media and we get these comments that say things like, "I read your book and it saved our marriage" or "my husband and I were getting ready to go to the divorce court and we read the book and we talked about it and we tore up the divorce papers." Which is awesome. Wow, thank you, God, for using it this way. However, for me, why that's sobering is if a 180-page little tiny book can save a marriage, there's a whole lot of tragically unnecessary divorces going on. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so sobering. If you're enjoying these episodes and want to keep the conversation going or if you want to see and learn more about our guests or if you just want to check out if we're offering any current giveaways, make sure you stop by our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram at The Savvy Sauce. [00:28:53] 
 
Again, now that we've addressed the female side, how would your husband answer that same question? Does he have any habitual practices in place to understand and love you better? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah, he definitely does. I think honestly, one of the big things for me, which is the case actually for statistically most women, is that he didn't realize that if he was grumpy and sullen... you know, you have that kind of that black cloud that sometimes follows your husband around. He thought it only affected him. He didn't realize that for me, and I can't remember what the number is, it's like 87% of women, something like that, it really causes some insecurity. It causes that feeling of, are we okay? 
 
You know, because he's withdrawn. He's moody. He's not talking. It's like, are we okay? Is something wrong? What did I do? You know, it's like you get all these thoughts, even if it could just be that the Michigan Wolverines are getting beat badly. [00:29:52] But if we have a little thing where we're at odds or whatever, and he kind of used to be, he would be withdrawn for a couple of days. And now it's amazing. 
 
I actually watch... he starts down that slope and I can see that he's trying to pull himself out of it and snap himself out of having that bad mood, because he knows how insecure it makes me feel. And that has been really powerful on his side. 
 
Laura Dugger: So even you seeing him make the effort is what translates to be meaningful to you. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, very much so. And that's the thing. Unless you know this stuff, you won't notice the other person making the effort. You won't realize that it's any different in what they're trying to do. Once you know some of these little simple things, you go, oh, that's what they're trying to do. 
 
One of the things that we recommend with the two books, with For Women Only and For Men Only... Some church that was doing premarital counseling with them actually came up with this idea and we asked if we could borrow it, because it's the perfect idea. [00:31:01] 
 
They literally advise people to switch books first. And instead of reading the book about your spouse, actually read the book about yourself and kind of highlight and circle the stuff that's so you, that you think, "I could have said this. This is so me." Also make notes on the areas where maybe you're in the 20% on this or that, right? 
 
But then what happens after you've done that, you really have a sense, my spouse didn't know this? Like, these are the things they didn't know? And then you trade it back and you're reading a personalized copy. But you've also got a real insight into, Oh, when they were in a bad mood, my husband didn't realize that was impacting me this way. And so it puts a different spin on it. It's not like he's trying to torture me. He just doesn't know. [00:31:56] So it's really helpful to actually understand what your spouse doesn't realize, just as much as it is to actually learn about them. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think that's so powerful. It's really wise for so many different reasons, even just a way that the book can articulate what you're experiencing that you may not be aware of so you could grow in self-awareness. And then when it's time to switch and read the other book, I think that it helps you assume the best of one another. And then when you're assuming that, you notice those things, and it's just a great cycle. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: It does tend to feed itself. I mean, we're not perfect. None of us is ever going to do it perfectly. But it really is helpful because you absolutely start to understand and have compassion for what's going on in your spouse's heart, and recognizing when they're not getting what's in yours. All of that just really helps. It's really simple, but it is really transformational. 
 
Laura Dugger: Now I want to switch gears a little bit because I want to ask that same question for you as a parent. [00:33:01] How has all of this research applied and changed the way you parent? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: It's been radically, radically transformational in my relationship with my kids, because we have two teenagers. But when we started this research, when For Women Only came out, which was the first of these research books, my son was one, and my daughter was four. And they sort of grew up with us kind of learning and stumbling through this and trying to figure out what we were doing. 
 
I actually have seen, for example, for me with my son... He's 16 now. There have been times where I absolutely recognize that I have shredded his little spirit in pieces, because of how I've handled something. And I know perfectly well. Again, he's a guy. And for a guy, it's all about am I any good at what I'm trying to do? That is it. Am I any good? [00:34:08] 
 
So when I have been exasperated with him, you know, like, "You forgot to turn in the science project. Come on, we worked on that," and the exasperation is rising in my voice, I wouldn't have recognized that what I'm saying is, you're an idiot. I never would use those words with my sweet, sensitive son ever. But that's what I'm saying when I have that tone of voice. 
 
It doesn't mean I always do it perfectly. Obviously, I don't, or I wouldn't even know of this. But unfortunately, I've recognized the times that I've really shredded him. It's hard, but I've recognized how much I need to pull back and apologize and work to build him up and help him see himself as being a strong guy who's honorable, and who's trying to make a difference in the way he handles things and given the belief that he is good at what he does. [00:35:08] 
 
That is so crucial. And it is so lacking in society today, especially for young men, because they've grown up in a world where it's okay to say that men are buffoons. They've grown up in a world where all you see are men being idiots on TV or whatever. And that's not real but that's what they see. 
 
So me going the other end of pointing out, "I'm so proud of you, you worked so hard. This test, I know it took a lot out of you and I'm really proud of how you buckled down and what you accomplished. I probably would have said a couple of those things. Like, I would have said, good job, and then left it at that, as opposed to making a point out of making sure that I'm saying those things. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think it's understandable that you're saying this isn't natural and that's why you have to keep retraining yourself. But also that it is possible. And when you gain this knowledge, if you apply just little pieces, that it can radically improve your relationships. [00:36:13] 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. It's little bits of knowledge here, little bits of knowledge there, and little aha moments. Once you see them, you go, Oh. And once you apply them and you see that it works, I mean, that's the best incentive to continue. Because that's when you start seeing the transformation. 
 
I see the look on my son's face when he feels like he has tried and failed and tried and failed. And I see the look on his face when he's tried and tried and tried and finally feels like he's done well. Sometimes it sends me to tears. And how much I want for him to grow up feeling like he can do this. 
 
Laura Dugger: Going back to what you had said, every book that you've written and published then has funded the next research project, it reminds me of the Proverbs 31 woman who considers her field and buys it, and from the prophet then she plants a fruitful vine. Well done with that. But we would love to know, what are you working on next? [00:37:16] 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, actually, this is something that really was miraculous. It came out of the clear blue sky. Actually, it's just come out in March of 2020. Jeff and I have been studying why we fight about money. A huge topic in marriage is money. We've never studied it before. We studied everything else. We studied parenting and intimacy and in-laws and relationships and pornography and everything. Like, how could we never have studied money? 
 
So the book's called Thriving in Love and Money. It's essentially, why do we fight about it? Why do we avoid talking about it? Why is it that I'm really tempted to try to pull the Amazon package off the front step before my husband gets home? What is that? And sort of what's underneath the surface. Or people who have great communication around money. Why is that? What allows that to happen? It turns out none of it is about the money. It turns out it's entirely about all these things going on under the surface. [00:38:23] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So timely. We will definitely link to that book in our show notes and on our resources page. I'm so glad that it's now available. If listeners want to purchase your book or find out more about you, where can they connect with you further online? 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, go to shaunti.com for my website, and you can see the research there. S-H-A-U-N-T-I is how you spell my name. But they can get the book anywhere, any online or any retailer. 
 
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. This time has been so invigorating. I'd love to end with one final question, Shaunti. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: I always try to understand what's going on under the surface of what just happened. So if my husband looks like he's angry, okay, what is it? And sometimes it has nothing to do with me. But I always learn something. [00:39:25] Or something that makes my daughter really happy. Like, why did that make her so, so happy? What is that? And you learn so much about people that way. 
 
Laura Dugger: Well, that is such a good savvy sauce. Your kindness just shines through this interview. I can even hear your smile as we're chatting. So thank you for being my guest today and thank you for all the work that you've done in this field and the relationships that you've helped. 
 
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, thanks. I really appreciate the chance to share with your audience. 
 
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:40:29] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:41:31] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:42:33] 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

92 The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee

92. The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee 
 
Ephesians 4:16 (NLT) "He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.” 
 
Sarajane Case is an author, speaker and podcaster based out of Asheville, NC. She's been featured in publications like apartment therapy, the every girl, parade magazine and was named a 2018 person on the rise by honey book. With an instagram account of over half a million followers, a podcast that regularly stays at the top of the charts in self-help and a book coming out in April of 2020 Sarajane is a rising leader in the self-help industry. You can find more from her on Instagram at www.instagram.com/enneagramandcoffee, her podcast - Enneagram & Coffee can be found on iTunes and Spotify and her website is www.enneagramandcoffee.com. Make sure to pre-order her book ‘The Honest Enneagram’ wherever books are sold.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Other Episodes of The Savvy Sauce Describing the Enneagram: Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
Deep Dive Into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
Books & Resources to Learn More About the Enneagram:
The Honest Enneagram by Sarajane Case
Enneagram & Coffee Podcast
Enneagram & Coffee Website
Connect with Sarajane on Instagram: @enneagramandcoffee
Dr. Jerome Lubbe’s Website
The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
Sacred Enneagram by Christopher L. Heuertz and Richard Rohr
The Complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut
The Enneagram Institute Website
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: A Perfect Promotion
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

91 Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

91. Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane
 
Titus 2:15 (AMP) “Tell them these things. Encourage and rebuke with full authority. Let no one disregard or despise you [conduct yourself and your teaching so as to command respect.]"
 
Arlene Pellicane is a speaker and author of several books including Parents Rising, 31 Days to a Happy Husband and Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life.   She is also the co-author of Growing Up Social: Raising Relational Kids in a Screen-Driven World (with Dr. Gary Chapman).  
 
Arlene has been a featured guest on the Today Show, Fox & Friends, Focus on the Family, FamilyLife Today, The 700 Club, and Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah.  She writes regularly for Proverbs 31 Ministries and Girlfriends in God.  Arlene earned her BA from Biola University and her Masters in Journalism from Regent University.  Arlene lives in San Diego with her husband James and their three children Ethan, Noelle, and Lucy.  To learn more, visit www.ArlenePellicane.com 
 
Arlene Pellicane's Website
Arlene Pellicane's Podcast
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Growing up Social by Dr. Gary Chapman and Arlene Pellicane
 
Books by Arlene Pellicane:
Parents Rising
31 Days to a Happy Husband
31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom
31 Days to Becoming a Happy Wife
31 Days to a Younger You
Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life
 
Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell
Anger: Taming a Powerful Emotion by Dr. Gary Chapman
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

90 Friendship with Drew Hunter

90. Friendship with Drew Hunter
 
Proverbs 18:1 “Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire; he breaks out against all sound judgment” 
 
Drew Hunter is the teaching pastor at Zionsville Fellowship in Zionsville, Indiana. He is the author of Made for Friendship: The Relationship that Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys. Drew and his wife, Christina, live in Zionsville, Indiana, and have four children.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Made for Friendship by Drew Hunter
 
Connect with Drew on Twitter @drewfhunter
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management Company
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

89 Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery

*DISCLAIMER* This message is not intended for little ears.
 
89. Passion Pursuit with Clinical Psychologist, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Juli Slattery
 
Proverbs 5:19b (NIV) “may you ever be intoxicated with her love.” 
 
Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and the president/co-founder of Authentic Intimacy. Juli earned her college degree at Wheaton College, an MA in psychology from Biola University, an MS and a Doctorate degree in Clinical Psychology from Florida Institute of Technology.
 
From 2008-2012, Dr. Slattery served at Focus on the Family writing, teaching, and co-hosting the Focus on the Family Broadcast. In 2012, she left Focus on the Family to start Authentic Intimacy, a ministry devoted to reclaiming God’s design for sexuality.
 
Juli is the author of ten books and host of the weekly podcast “Java with Juli.” Juli and her husband Mike are the parents of 3 sons; they live in Akron, Ohio.
 
“I love my job at Authentic Intimacy because it is God’s call on my life for this season. Everywhere I look, I see lives ruined by unfulfilled promises of love and sexual brokenness. God is able to redeem our pain and restore us to wholeness when we seek His truth and healing. It all begins with authentically knowing and trusting God. Through this ministry, God is redeeming women’s lives and marriages with His truth. What could be more exciting than that?” - Juli 
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Dr. Juli Slattery’s Website, Authentic Intimacy
Java with Juli Podcast
Books by Dr. Juli Slattery:
Passion Pursuit
Rethinking Sexuality
Pulling Back the Shades
Sex and the Single Girl
25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy
Surprised by the Healer
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Equip for Health
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

88 Applying Business Strategies to Your Home Management with Susan Seay

88. Applying Business Strategies to Your Home Management with Susan Seay
 
Luke 2:52 (NIV) “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."
 
Susan Seay is an author, podcaster, and speaker. She is a married mom with 7 kids who sees motherhood as a calling and a privilege. Her goal is to create a home where her family can thrive - physically, emotionally, financially, and spiritually. She and her husband have broken free from the burden of perfection, and she models a life that invites us to do the same!
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Susan Seay’s Website 
Mentor 4 Moms Podcast
Connect with Susan Seay on socials: @susanlseay
Intentional Parent
Intentional Parent Card Set
Parenting the QBQ Way
Harvard Business Review Recommended Reading Lists
Good to Great
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow

87. Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
 
Deuteronomy 6:5-7 (NIV) “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.”
 
Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
 
Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.
 
He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Visionary Family Website
 
A Sample of Books by Dr. Rob Rienow
God’s Grand Vision for the Home
Visionary Marriage
Visionary Parenting
Family Worship: Genesis
 
Bible Studies with Dr. Rob Rienow
Never Too Late
Visionary Single Parenting
Visionary Marriage
Visionary Parenting
 
Not So Perfect Mom by Amy Rienow
The Heart of Your Teen by Lissy Rienow
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian School
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

86 Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher

86. Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher
 
“But earnestly desire and strive for the greater gifts [if acquiring them is going to be your goal]. And yet I will show you a still more excellent way [one of the choicest graces and the highest of them all: unselfish love].”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭(Amp)
 
Dale Wilsher is a professional life and strength coach, a DISC personality trainer, and the author of What’s Your Mom Type? Discovering God’s Design for You. She’s the parent of four daughters, ranging in age from 16-23, and newly married to her husband, Jeff.  You can find her at www.DaleWilsher.com , www.YourAuthenticPersonality.com , and www.DaleWilsherConsulting.com
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
What’s Your Mom Type? by Dale Wilsher
 
Previous Podcast Episodes with Jeff Henderson:
 
Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal Development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson
 
How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

85 Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

85. Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
 
**Transcription Below**
 
1 Corinthians 13:13 (NIV) “And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” 
 
Gary Chapman, Ph.D.—author, speaker, pastor, and counselor—has a passion for people, and for helping them form lasting relationships.  Chapman is a well-known marriage counselor and director of marriage seminars. The 5 Love Languages® is one of Chapman’s most popular titles, topping various bestseller charts for years, selling over twelve million copies and has been on the the NewYork Times best-sellers list continuously since 2007. Chapman has been directly involved in real-life family counseling since the beginning of his ministry years, and his nationally-syndicated radio programs air nationally on Moody Radio Network and over 400 affiliate stations.
For more information visit www.5lovelanguages.com
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman’s 5 Love Languages Website 
5 Love Languages Book
The 5 Love Languages of Children
5 Love Languages Quiz (FREE)
5 Love Languages Conferences
Dr. Gary Chapman’s Podcast
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
[00:00:00]
 
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
[00:00:17]
 
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 1,600 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at MidwestShelters.com or visit them on Facebook. 
 
Well, this is an extra special episode because I've hoped for an opportunity to chat with this guest for decades now. Dr. Gary Chapman is the New York Times bestselling author of The 5 Love Languages, in addition to so many other wonderful books. 
 
Today we're going to discuss what a marriage can look like for couples who actually speak each other's primary love language and how we can do that.
 
Here's our chat. 
 
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Chapman. 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, it's great to be with you. 
 
Laura Dugger: Your work has impacted millions of people, and I would love to just start by having you take us back to where this idea originated for the 5 love languages. [00:01:23] So will you just share that journey with us? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, that goes way back. I remember, I don't know how many years ago it was, but pretty early in my counseling, a couple came in and she said, "I just feel like he doesn't love me." And he said, "I don't understand that. I do everything I can to show her that I love her. I don't understand why she wouldn't feel loved."
 
So after that, I heard similar stories over and over again, where one of them didn't feel love and the other thought, Well, I'm loving you. Why wouldn't you feel loved? It was 12 years I heard these kind of stories and I knew there was a pattern to it but I didn't know what it was. 
 
Eventually, I took time to sit down and read several years of notes that I made when I was counseling people and asked myself the question: when someone sat in my office and said, I feel like my spouse doesn't love me, what did they want? [00:02:24]  What were they complaining about? And their answers fell into five categories, and I later called them the 5 love languages. 
 
So I started using that concept in marriage counseling that if you want her to feel love, you've got to speak love in her love language. And if you want him to feel love, you've got to speak love in his love language. So I would help them discover their language and then challenge them to go home and try it. And sometimes, Laura, they would come back in three weeks and say, Gary, this is changing everything. The whole climate's different. 
 
Then I started using the same concept in small groups of couples and the same thing would happen. And probably five years later, I thought, you know, if I could put this concept in a book, and write it in the language of the common person so people could understand it, maybe I could help a lot of couples I would never have time to see in my office. 
 
Of course, little did I know the book would sell now over 13 million copies in English and be translated in over 50 languages around the world. So that's where it came from, out of my counseling over a number of years. [00:03:27] 
 
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And yeah, I believe the book came out in 1992 and last I checked, it is still on the New York Times bestselling list. 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Yes, it has been for a number of years now. You're right. 
 
Laura Dugger: Taking it back even further, is it right that you studied anthropological studies? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: I did. I did an undergrad and a master's degree in anthropology, the study of cultures. That really surprised me when other cultures wanted to translate this because I was very sensitive to cultural differences. I think the Spanish was the first ones. And I said to my publisher, I said, "I don't know, does this work in Spanish?" And they say, "Well, they've read it and they want to publish it." So we gave them the rights. Last I heard, they'd sold over three million copies in Spanish. 
 
Laura Dugger: One of the many things I appreciate about your book is that it is full of God's timeless truth. Whether this is a new concept or someone just needs a reminder, what are the five love languages and how can we identify which is our main one? [00:04:32] 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, let me just go through them quickly. Number one is, in no particular order, but number one is words of affirmation — using words to affirm the other person. You look nice in that outfit. I appreciate what you did. There's an ancient Hebrew proverb that says life and death is in the power of the tongue. So words of affirmation bring life to people. 
 
Another love language is gifts. It's universal to give gifts as an expression of love. My anthropology studies have found that we've never discovered a culture anywhere in the world where gift-giving is not an expression of love. It's universal to give gifts. 
 
Then there's quality time — giving the person your undivided attention. I do not mean husband and wife sitting on the couch watching television. Someone else has your attention. I'm talking about sitting on the couch with the TV off, looking at each other, talking to each other, or taking a walk down the road and talking to each other. [00:05:30] 
 
Then there's acts of service —doing something for the other person that you know they would like for you to do. In a marriage, that would be such things as cooking meals, washing dishes, vacuuming floors, washing cars, mowing grass, walking the dog, changing the baby's diaper, anything that you know the other person would like for you to do. You remember the old saying, Actions speak louder than words. It's true for these people. If this is your love language, actions will speak louder than words. 
 
Then number five is physical touch. We've long known the emotional power of physical touch. That's why we pick up babies and hold them and kiss them and cuddle them. Long before the baby understands the meaning of the word love, the baby feels love by physical touch. So the basic idea is that out of those five, each of us has a primary love language. One of them speaks more deeply to us emotionally than the other four. And if you don't speak the person's primary language, they won't feel loved, even though you may be speaking some of the other languages. [00:06:35] 
 
So how do you discover your primary love language? Well, you can go online and take a free quiz at 5lovelanguages.com. You answer 30 questions. It will tell you what your primary love language is, your secondary, and right down the line. So that's one option. 
 
But here are three informal ways to discover a person's love language. First of all, observe their behavior. How do they typically respond to other people? If they're always giving people pats on the back or high-fives, physical touch is probably their language. They're touching others because they want to be touched. Or if they're always giving gifts, then that's a clue. That's probably what they want. 
 
A second question is, what do they complain about most often? If your spouse continues to say periodically, "I just wish we had more time together," they're telling you, they're complaining that we don't have enough time. They're complaining about quality time. [00:07:31] Or if you go on a business trip and you come home and they say, "You didn't bring me anything?" they're telling you gifts is their language. So what do they complain about? 
 
And the third question, what do they request most often? If they're saying periodically, honey, can we take a walk after dinner? They're asking you for quality time. Or if they say before you go on the business trip, be sure and bring me a surprise, they're telling you that gifts is their language. Or if they say, Honey, could you give me a back rub? They're asking you for physical touch. You put those three together and you can pretty well figure out a person's primary love language and your own love language by asking those same three questions about yourself. 
 
Laura Dugger: You teach this with such clarity. But I know I've met people who have asked what their love language is. So how do you answer people who can't identify their main language, especially if they think that they're all of them? [00:08:29] 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, first of all, I ask them, have you taken the quiz? Sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. And I say it's free, okay? 5lovelanguages.com, go take the quiz. But if they take the quiz and say they all came out even, there's two kinds of people that have difficulty discovering their primary love language and all of them are just about even to them. 
 
One is the individual who grew up in a home where they always felt loved. From childhood, they felt loved. Their parents spoke all five of these languages. And then later on, they got to be adults, they got married, and their spouse spoke all these languages. So they've just always felt loved. And they don't know which one is more important than the other, because they feel loved. 
 
To those people, I say, don't worry about it. As long as you feel love, don't worry about it. If you ever begin to feel like, no, they don't really love me like I wish they did, now you need to discover what is it that's missing, okay? [00:09:28] 
 
But then the other extreme is the person who never felt loved. They didn't feel love growing up. They went through a lot of emotional struggles as teenagers. As adults, they don't feel loved in any of their relationships. And they're not even quite sure what it means to feel love, because they've never felt love. 
 
This is more difficult, of course, because it's an emotional scar coming from their past. Can they come to feel love? Yes, I think they can, if they will open their hearts. And if someone chooses to genuinely love them, even though their love might be rejected from time to time, that person can be healed from that. And especially the healing of God can bring healing to the person who's never felt love. But for most people, they can pretty well figure out what their primary language is. 
 
Now, some people do tell me that two of those are equal for them. And my response to that is, fine, we'll give you two love languages. We'll call you bilingual, okay? [00:10:28] Either one of those is gonna speak deeply to you. So whatever your... if it's marriage, whatever your spouse does, which of those two, you're gonna feel loved. 
 
Laura Dugger: Which might be great, because then their spouse has two different ways that they could show them their love. 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: That's right. 
 
Laura Dugger: I'm curious, have people ever told you that their love language changes in different seasons, or does it stay the same throughout life, typically? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Once in a while, people do tell me that they think their love language has changed. I think that the love language tends to stay with us for a lifetime. Now, having said that, I do agree that there are certain seasons of life and maybe certain circumstances where another love language may jump to the top momentarily. 
 
For example, a mother that has two preschool children, acts of service may not be her primary language, but during those years, it may well jump to the top because she's overwhelmed with all the work that she has to do. And so I think there may be seasons in which another love language may become more predominant. [00:11:31] But once that season is over, it'll flip back to your primary. 
 
I think another time, if you're getting enough of your number one and number two is very close to number one, and often that's the case, you get enough of number one, you may begin to think, Oh, I don't know, I think number two has become number one. But if they stop doing number one, you'll quickly know, oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's still my primary. So I think those are occasions, and I would say this too, maybe situations. 
 
For example, let's say your spouse gets word that some family member has died. Physical touch may not be their language, but at that point, you're holding them, and letting them cry in your arms is probably the most powerful thing you can do to communicate to them "I love you and I'm with you in this". So I think there may be situations where, you know, just momentarily a love language may change. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's fascinating. But that also makes sense because you're not saying to only love your spouse or your children or your friends with one love language. [00:12:37] You can still do all five. There's just one that's most meaningful. Is that right? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: That's right. And what I say especially to parents, because you can discover a child's love language by the time they're four years old, just observe their behavior. If my son was that age, I'd come home in the afternoon, he'd run to the door, would grab my legs and climb all over me. He's touching me because he wants to be touched. 
 
Our daughter never did that. At that age, she would say, "Daddy, come to my room. I want to show you something." Her love language was quality time. They're grown. It's still their love language. So it develops very early and I think tends to stay with us throughout a lifetime. 
 
But I say to parents, please don't hear me saying that you only speak the primary love language. No, you give them heavy doses of the primary. You sprinkle in the other four because we want the child to learn how to receive love and give love in all five languages. That's the healthiest adult. Most of us did not receive all five, so we have to learn some of these as adults. [00:13:39] But no, you give heavy doses of the primary, sprinkle in the others, and you get extra credit for that as an adult. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is such wise counsel. And from your experience, Dr. Chapman, do couples often marry someone who is the same or different from them when it relates to their love languages? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Very seldom does a couple have the same love language. It can happen, but it doesn't happen very often. And even if they have the same language, they will often have different dialects within that language. For example, one wife said to me recently, she said, "My husband and I have the same love language." And I said, "Great, what is it?" She said, "The acts of service." She said, "But the things I want him to do for me that make me feel alive are different from the things he wants me to do for him to make him feel alive." Same language, just different dialects within the language. So seldom does a husband and wife have the same love language. [00:14:38] 
 
Laura Dugger: And so can you help debunk the myth then that we're off the hook if our spouse does have a different primary love language from us? It doesn't excuse us from giving them love in that way. 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: You know, I think there's no question about it. If their number one is your number five, it's a learning curve, okay? Let's say their language is words of affirmation, but you never received words growing up. It's not natural for you to give words. 
 
But here's the good news. You can learn to speak any of these languages after you get to be an adult. So I said to the man who told me, he said, "Dr. Chapman, my wife's love language is words. I never receive words. I don't know how to do it." I said, "Here's my advice. You get your little notebook, you write down statements you hear other men say to their wives or something you read in a book or a magazine. Write them down. Stand in front of the mirror, read them out loud to yourself. [00:15:41] Read them often enough that you get some of them down and then you move into the room where your wife is. Maybe she's looking in the other direction and you just say one of them and run." Okay, you broke the barrier. And it's easier the second time and the third time. 
 
You can learn any of these languages. And if you want your spouse to feel loved, you've got to give the effort to learn to speak these languages. I had a man who said to me once, he said, "Dr. Chapman, I read your book. I took the quiz and my wife took the quiz. She tells me that her love language is act of service. But I'm just going to tell you and her, if it's going to mean my washing dishes and my vacuuming floors for her to feel loved, she can forget that." Wow. 
 
I said to him, "That is your choice. If you want to live with a wife who feels unloved, that's your choice." I said, "I much prefer to live with a wife who feels loved." I said, "I've lived with both. Early years of my marriage, my wife didn't feel loved. Later years of my marriage, she has felt loved. Same woman, okay? Just unloved for years and then loved when I finally learned her love language." I said, "I much prefer to live with a woman who feels loved." [00:17:02] 
 
So love is a choice. Once we have the information as to what the primary love language is, we have a choice to speak it or not to speak it. Now, Christians have outside help because the Bible says the love of God is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So if you're having a hard time learning the language of your spouse, you just open your heart to God and say, "Lord, I know you love her. I know you love him. Pour it into me. Give me the ability. Put it on the front burner of my heart and teach me how to express love to them in a meaningful way." You will learn to speak their love language. 
 
Laura Dugger: That is great advice because He really does have the most creative ideas, if you ask God. 
 
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Laura Dugger: Even if we are sincere in our love for our spouse, you write in your book why being sincere is just not enough. So will you give us some applicable examples for how to love someone well in each of those languages? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Most couples are sincere, and certainly in the early years of the marriage, they're sincere, and they typically are expressing love. They're just expressing it in the way that would make them feel love, and they're not connecting with each other. So that's why we have to learn a different language. We learn the one that connects with them. 
 
Let's say words of affirmation. I just talked about that one and how you learn it. You know, just simple things. "Honey, I really appreciate dinner tonight. It was really good." Or, "Yeah, I just appreciate the fact that you keep our car clean or that you got the bugs off the windshield of the car I drive. I appreciate that." [00:20:20] It's just looking for things you can affirm about the other person. 
 
I did have a lady who said, "Well, you know, Dr. Chairman, I'd like to give him some words of affirmation, but to be honest, I can't think of anything good to say about the man." I said, "Well, does he ever take a shower?" And she said, "Well, yes." I said, "Well, how often?" She said, "Well, every day." I said, "If I were you, I'd start there." "Honey, I appreciate you taking a shower." I mean, there are men who don't. So, words of affirmation. 
 
And then gifts. Here's the way you learn to give meaningful gifts. You listen to your spouse when they say, you know, I'd like to have one of those someday. Or maybe you're watching television and they say, you know, I'd like to try that. Or you're flipping through a magazine and they say, you know, someday I'd like to have one of those. Make a list of all those things and then go out and buy them periodically. 
 
Also, gifts do not have to be expensive. You can go out in the backyard and pick a flower and give it to your wife. You know, if you don't have any flowers in your backyard, check your neighbor's backyard, you know, ask them, they'll give you a flower. [00:21:25]
 
Or you could pick up a feather when you're walking and take it home and say to your spouse, you know, "Honey, I found this today and I wanted to give it to you because you are the wind beneath my sails. And this feather reminded me of that." Wow, didn't cost you a thing. 
 
So a third love language, of course, is acts of service, doing things for them. Here you can just simply ask, "Honey, what could I do that would make your life easier?" And they'll tell you what you could do. If this is their love language, they will tell you what you could do. It may be taking out the trash before they ask you. It may be washing dishes. It may be vacuuming floors. It may be taking care of the baby while I take a walk. Just something that was meaningful to them. And if you ask, they'll be happy to tell you because that's their language. 
 
And then quality time. This can be, as I said earlier, just sitting on the couch 15 minutes and talking to each other. [00:22:27] Or it could be taking a walk and talking or going out to eat, assuming that you talk. You probably have noticed in a restaurant, you can almost always tell the difference between dating couples and married couples. Dating couples look at each other and talk. Married couples often sit there and eat or pull out their phone and start texting somebody. Ah, undivided attention, quality time. 
 
And then number five is physical touch. In a marriage, that would be such things as holding hands, kissing, embracing, the whole sexual part of marriage, arm around the shoulder, driving down the road, you put your hand on their leg. These are the kind of things that communicate love to the person for whom physical touch is their language. 
 
Laura Dugger: I think you've given everybody a great starting point. Can you just now vision-cast what a marriage could look like for couples who willingly and consistently choose to speak their spouse's love language? [00:23:27] 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: You know, I think when we get married, all of us want to have a loving, supportive, caring marriage. And when you're in love, you think you're going to have that kind of marriage. Because when you're in love, they're the most wonderful person you've ever met. You know, your mother can see their flaws, but you can't see their flaws when you're in love. It's a super, super high emotion. 
 
But it only has an average lifespan of two years. We come down off the high. And nobody told me that. My wife and I dated two years before we got married, and I could hardly wait to be as happy as I was going to be when we got married. I came down pretty soon after the honeymoon and I began to realize, "Man, there's some things... I'm not real... I don't like that about her. 
 
And before long, within six months, I was feeling like I'd made a mistake. I mean, this is just not what I thought it was going to be. And many couples go through that because they don't know that you come down off that high. They think if you've got the real thing it's going to last forever. [00:24:31] 
 
If you come down off the high, this is when the love language becomes extremely important. And if you choose to speak each other's love language on a regular basis, you hardly miss the high because you still feel loved. But now it's much more intentional and it takes much more effort if you have to learn a new language. But when you do, I say the emotional love tank fills up. And when your love tank is full, you genuinely feel loved by your spouse. Life is beautiful. When the love tank is empty, you feel like they don't love you. You're thinking they wish they weren't married to me. Life begins to look pretty dark. 
 
So it's extremely important that we learn this concept of how to express love in a meaningful way to the other person so that we meet that deep need. Everyone agrees our deepest emotional need on the human level is to feel loved by the significant people in your life. [00:25:30] And if you're married, the person you would most like to love you is your spouse. So this can revolutionize the emotional climate in a home, and then everything else is much easier when you feel love. 
 
Solving conflicts, for example, is much easier when you feel loved by your spouse. If you don't feel love, the differences look bigger and it's harder to solve them. When you feel love, you can hear each other, you can listen, you can affirm each other and you can say, "Okay, honey, I think we understand each other. We disagree on it. How can we solve the problem?" You spend your energy solving the problem rather than trying to win an argument with your spouse. So it makes a huge difference when you're speaking each other's love language. 
 
Laura Dugger: Just to summarize, it sounds like physiologically there is something, usually I think is it between 18 and 24 months, you're talking about that high that you feel that in love experience. And when that does go away, because it will for everyone, there's an option for a more mature, deeper love. [00:26:36] 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Absolutely. Because now it's intentional. You know, you didn't do anything to fall in love. It just happens. Certain people you're attracted to and you spend time with them and it just feels wonderful and the more you know them, the more you like them. But when you do come down off the high, now love becomes intentional. Love now is a choice. And then we have to learn how to express love. 
 
This is why the Bible can command a husband to love his wife. Husbands, love your wives. It's a command. And this is why, you know, the scriptures say the older women are to teach the young women to love their husbands. What? You have to have a class in it? Yes, you do. You have to learn. 
 
So it's much more intentional now. If you can command a man to love his wife, then he's capable of doing that. You don't choose your emotions, but you do choose your attitude and your behavior. And love is an attitude which says, "I'm here to enrich your life. How can I help you? How can I help you become the person that you believe God wants you to be?" [00:27:45] 
 
Two people who have that attitude will find behaviors to enhance each other's lives. And that's what God intended, that we each reach out to love each other and help each other. And when that's happening, man, you find deep satisfaction in marriage. And that's what God intended. 
 
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out! 
 
I could just ask you questions all day about marriage, but let's just go back briefly. You talked about one other important relationship. So how can an understanding of the five love languages elevate our relationships with our children? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, I think it's extremely important that parents learn this concept. [00:28:44] And that's why I wrote the book, The 5 Love Languages of Children. I wrote it with Dr. Ross Campbell, who is a Christian psychiatrist. He's in heaven now, but we wrote that book together. He'd had 30 years' experience with children. 
 
I say to parents, the question is not, do you love your children? Most parents love their children. The question is, do your children feel loved? And I can tell you, though most parents love their children, there are children that don't feel loved. 
 
I remember the young man sitting in my office. He was 13. He had run away from home. He said to me, "My parents don't love me. They love my brother. They don't love me." I knew his parents. I knew they loved him. But you see, he didn't feel loved. They had never learned to speak his love language. So consequently, he grew up, in their minds, they loved him. In his mind, they didn't love him. 
 
So it's extremely important to learn a child's primary love language. As I said earlier, you can learn that by the time they're four years old. [00:29:45] And then you give heavy doses of the primary, sprinkle in the other four, and that child feels loved, they grow up emotionally healthy. But if they don't feel loved in the teenage years, they will go looking for love, typically in all the wrong places. 
 
So, it really enhances not only the relationship between the parent and the child, it enhances the child's emotional health when the parent learns how to express love to the child in their love language. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging and something we can apply today. I'm so grateful that you have so many books available that people can follow up with and learn more about these topics. But also, where can listeners find you online? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: You know, if they go, Laura, to 5lovelanguages.com, the number five, 5lovelanguages.com, they will get a little blurb on all of my books. And we have books on many, many different topics. And they will be able to download a radio program that I do every week called Building Relationships. [00:30:51] They can find out where I'm going to be doing marriage conferences around the country. So 5lovelanguages.com, you can learn maybe more than you want to know about me, but hopefully find a lot of practical help. 
 
And as I mentioned earlier, there's a free online profile, it's a quiz that you take that's free, that will tell you your primary love language, your secondary love language. There's one for couples, married couples. There's one for single adults. There's one for teenagers and one for children. And there's a special one for military couples, helping them discover their love language. So all of that is at 5lovelanguages.com. 
 
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful. We will certainly link to that in our show notes and also put the access to that on our resources page. One final question for you today, Dr. Chapman. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so we would love to hear, what is your savvy sauce? [00:31:52] 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: You know, if I had to pick one, I would say a daily sharing time with my wife, a sit-down time, just like I have a daily time with God in which I sit down and read the scripture and tell God I'm listening and I want to know what he wants to say to me and I talk back to God and we have a conversation. I have a daily sit-down time with my wife. 
 
I say to couples in my seminars, here's the daily minimum. You share with each other three things that happen in your life today and how you feel about them. They don't have to be super things, just three things that happened today and how you feel about them. 
 
My wife and I sit down every day and share at least three things. Usually, we share a lot more than three things, but that's the minimum. And even when I'm gone on the road, and speaking in other places, I'll call her and we'll talk to each other and catch up on what happened today and how you're feeling about the whole thing. It just keeps you connected emotionally, just like the time with God daily keeps you connected with God. [00:32:58] The daily sharing time with the spouse, it's just been super, super meaningful for us through the years. 
 
Laura Dugger: I love that savvy sauce. I actually have one last question. What is your love language? 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Mine is words of affirmation and my wife is acts of service. That's why before I leave the house every morning, I take the trash out and unload the dishwasher, all while she's still in bed. And I know when she goes in there, she's going to look at that trash can and say, Man, what a wonderful guy. And she gives me words of affirmation. I wish that I learned all that early in my marriage. That's why I try to help other couples to learn it early so you don't have to go through some years like we did in the early years when you're just having a hard time getting it together.
 
Laura Dugger: Dr. Chapman, I've admired your work and your attitude for decades now. You're such a humble man, and I'm so very grateful for this time together. So thank you for being my guest. [00:34:01] 
 
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, thank you, Laura. It was good to be with you, and you keep up the good work of encouraging people. 
 
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much. 
 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
 
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:35:07] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 
 
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:36:06] 
 
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 
 
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 
 
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:37:09] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.