*The Savvy Sauce*

272_ Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow

272. Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow
 
Psalm 144:15b NKJV, "Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!"
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
Will you share your story of God revealing a spirit of perfectionism was sneaking into motherhood?
How can we recognize our own spirit of perfectionism and what can we do about it?
What is one thing you've found every mom needs more of and how can we get it?
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: MidwestFoodBank.org
 
Amy Rienow's first ministry is loving her husband and nurturing faith in their seven children. She and Rob founded and lead Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry created to equip parents, encourage couples, and help families live for Christ. She attended the University of Illinois, followed by Wheaton College Graduate School, where she earned her MA in Clinical Psychology. She is a licensed clinical professional counselor. Amy has her hands full as a mom, partnering with Rob, and serving in the women’s and worship ministries at church.
 
Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode:
Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
182 Things I Wish I'd Have Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman
220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman
245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow
230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website 
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:43) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.  Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
 
I'm thrilled to get to introduce you to my inspiring guest for today, Amy Rienow. Now, that last name may sound familiar because Amy's husband, Dr. Rob Rienow, has been a previous guest multiple times, actually. So, I'll make sure and link his previous episodes in the show notes, along with other episodes that we recommend in this conversation.
 
Amy and Rob are founders of Visionary Family Ministries, and they are parents to seven children. Amy is also an author, podcaster, and she's practiced as a licensed clinical professional counselor in the past, so she's going to combine all of this experience together, and her wisdom just pours out as now she's going to seek to encourage us to seek the Lord and follow His guidance, especially as parents in our parenting journey. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amy.
 
Amy Rienow: (1:44 - 1:51) Hi Laura. I'm so glad to do this with you. It's been a while since we've talked about it, and I'm excited to be here today.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) Well, I'm thrilled to have you join, and I'd love to just dive in and hear how did Jesus Christ become your personal Lord and Savior?
 
Amy Rienow: (2:01 - 3:39)  I love that you start with that question. I grew up in a home with a Christian mom and a non-Christian dad, but they had made an arrangement before they were even married. She did have the wisdom to ask her husband to give her the domain of that, like picking a church, and he was willing to go with us as a family to church, even though he was not a believer, and that was very clear.
 
But she led me to the Lord when I was about four years old, and I grew up going to church, and that was my first. I feel like I never kind of have a lot of memory of not knowing Jesus, but I would say that my faith increased and became even more my own. I feel like it was always my own, but in high school, I went on a missions trip to Mexico, and I will never forget the experience of being in a very poor town in Mexico, and there was this horrible storm coming in, and all of us Americans were afraid of the storm, and we ran into the church while the service kept going on, and literally none of the Mexican people that were outside in the service, the storm didn't faze them at all.
 
They just kept going on, and honestly, that was such a pivotal point in my life where I was like, that is the type of faith that I wanted to have. I mean, it really cemented. I feel like that's when the Holy Spirit just helped me to know that that's who I want to be.
 
I want to be a person of that kind of faith in the Lord that is not budging when the storms come.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 4:04) Love that. Thank you for sharing, and since that time, you've added some people to your family, so I'd love to get a snapshot of your family right now and then share some more about motherhood, specifically in one of your books you wrote about recognizing that you had a spirit of perfectionism. So, I'd love to hear more about that because I think it's very relatable.
 
Amy Rienow: (4:05 - 6:43) Well, my family right now, I've been married to my husband Rob for 30 years. I have seven children, R.W., Lissy, J.D., Lainey, Millie, Ray, and Rush.  And R.W. is turning 28 this year. He has one little boy.
 
His name is Cliff, so that's my grandbaby number three. My daughter Lissy is married to Bond, and she's about to have baby number three, so that will be my fourth grandbaby. She has Avey, Bondy, and then this little new one on the way. And then my son J.D. just got married to Brooke last summer, so that is exciting. We're thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have Brooke in our family. Lainey is graduating from Olivet. She graduated in three years, which we're really proud of. Millie is a junior.
 
Ray is a freshman, and Rush is in fifth grade, and I still homeschool those three. They kind of do part-time at a Christian school here, and then I homeschool the rest of the time. So, that is my current family.
 
It's expanding. As you will find out when you get to the stage, expansions come very quickly, and it's exciting, exciting times. But about that spirit of perfectionism, actually, even before I became a mom, I was convicted of a spirit of perfectionism because I had always been very critical of myself.
 
I had a very critical spirit. Just I don't know if it was, you know, the peer pressure, what those components are. I'm a middle child, but I just tended to critique myself very harshly.
 
And after I was married, even about a year, the Lord showed me how, because of my husband and I were becoming one flesh, I was really turning that critical spirit onto him. But then there was a book called The Fly Lady. She is a home organization.
 
I think I mention it in my book, but that is when I really began to understand that I struggled with perfectionism, and that's often what kept me paralyzed. It often keep me with that, you know, I would say engaging with that critical spirit, communicating a lot of criticisms, whether it be to my children or to my husband. So, that was, you know, so it started early in marriage, but by the time I was well into motherhood, I was really starting to understand what this was. What the critical spirit was, and it really was a spirit of perfectionism.
 
Laura Dugger: (6:44 - 6:52) Well, and the Lord met you there, and there is a story that you share related to picture frames. Would you be willing to tell that?
 
Amy Rienow: (6:52 - 9:07) Yeah. So, my daughter, Lissy, was graduating from high school, and it was classic me. I was trying to like get this massive graduation party together, and I'm sort of a procrastinator and life is busy.
 
So, it's like we are, okay, I got to get this done before this big party, this big event, and had a friend who was a decorator to kind of give me an idea of what to do. And so, my husband and really the whole family was kind of working overtime to get everything ready for this big event. And he had helped my, we had this huge wall that had to be that my decorator friend suggested a gallery wall.
 
So, we had all of these pictures up and I was looking at it late at night, kind of exhausted. We're talking about past midnight and I know it wasn't just my husband helping. I had JD helping.
 
I don't remember where I was, but we were just all working hard to get this ready for this party. And I was laying there as past midnight looking at that wall and so frustrated, like so frustrated because all those pictures I kept looking at like, Oh, this is going to be a mess. Like they're all, they're not like, you know, they're not command stripped.
 
Right. And so they're all going to be, I just felt like, what have I done? It's looking crooked already.
 
And it was so frustrating to me. And that is when the Holy spirit completely convicted me with just like, Amy, you should be looking what's in those pictures and not whether they're crooked or not crooked. Like, first of all, like all the family has been helping me with this vision.
 
Right. And it's not really their vision. It's my vision.
 
They've all been supportive of me in front of me. It was a wall of all the memories of all these beautiful pictures. And here I was so focused on my right angles and having it look perfect for the crowd coming in at the graduation party, as opposed to what everything on that wall represented.
 
And so, it was a very convicting moment to me of just like, I have a choice. Am I going to embrace everything in those pictures and everything my family's done to help us get to this special day? Or am I going to come in and be fixated on how crooked those picture frames look to me right now?
 
Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:19)  Appreciate you sharing that. And I'm wondering for any parent, especially listening, if they find themselves identifying with that spirit of perfectionism, what can we do with that?
 
Amy Rienow: (9:20 - 11:11)  It's a challenging one because I think our culture promotes it. And I also think I'm on the flip side of the positive side of it. Let me just say, I believe there's a vision of perfect in our hearts because we were created for perfect.
 
We're created for heaven. And the Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, or no mind has even conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. So, there's this drive for perfect that I think is very good and right.
 
And so, we don't want to give up like excellence, or we don't want to give up that we have that drive. The problem is that the enemy, in fact, I've actually done more research on this. There's really can be a demonic spirit of perfectionism where we're trying to create heaven here.
 
We're trying to think in our own flesh and our own strength that we can take care of all of our sin, take care of all of our flaws. We can take care of our children's flaws. We can take care of our husband's flaws.
 
That is actually from the enemy in the sense that we believe in our own strength. And you can look at that through history. It's basically a form of humanism that we can fix everything in ourselves.
 
God makes it very clear in scripture that that is not possible. So, I think understanding this tension, that it's okay to want things to be wonderful, that's not bad. But what's bad is when we leave God out of the picture and we put this pressure on ourselves and on the people around us to accomplish what only can God can do.
 
And we don't accept God's timing. We don't have patience with who we are, our sinful nature and really put our trust in Christ and not in ourselves.
 
Laura Dugger: (11:12 - 12:56) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
 
Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.
 
Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.
 
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.
 
The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org, or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.
 
You also write in one of your books that there's one thing that you found every mother needs. So, what is it and how can we get it?
 
Amy Rienow: (12:56 - 14:56) That one thing is joy, joy, joy. And, and I like to use the word happiness, honestly, because I feel like that happiness got a bad rap, I say, in Christian world for like a while, in my opinion. I don't know if it's still that way, but so often I heard sermon saying, you know, like we don't want happiness.
 
We want joy. Like there's these two different major things, like, you know, almost like a rejection of happiness for this deeper spiritual joy. Well, finally, the Lord really convicted me that deep, deep inner joy that doesn't show is an oxymoron.
 
Like, you really should see happiness. You should feel happiness. You should feel those things.
 
If you ever come across someone's like, oh no, I have a deep joy, but like, there's no evidence of it. Well, that's a red flag. That's a problem.
 
The Lord, you know, in the King James version, it actually says happier people whose God is the Lord. And I believe every mom desires that happiness. And sometimes they don't even really know that that's the most important element that they want in their home, you know, because it's so easy to get, I don't know, sidetracked on things that feel more important that you kind of forget how important happiness is.
 
And, you know, we can take it for granted. I feel like very easily because often when our kids are little and we don't have not entered that world of, whether it be academic or whatever into the greater world, let's just say in your home, you can kind of have like a natural happiness and joy that's just there, but it's so easily stifled. When we start putting our self into the world of either comparing ourselves to other moms, comparing our kids to other kids, stressing about the expectations or what we think our kids need.
 
We can often find that happiness slipping away. And I believe we do not want that to happen in our homes and in our hearts.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:57 - 15:08) And so how can we get more of that, both as parents and how can we train our kids to be happy and joyful as well?
 
Amy Rienow: (15:09 - 17:18) It's such a good question and a hard question. Cause I don't think it's just like we can snap our fingers and just do that. I think that it's really important that we are seeking the Lord and helping him order our priorities.
 
You know, God gave us 10 commandments for a reason. And if you look at the first one, it says, “You know, you'll have no other gods before me, you'll keep him first.” And part of the reason why I think that commandment is both like the first and also in many ways, very abstract, like, you know what I mean?
 
How do you even do that? You know, it's confusing, I think, but I think that's what the Lord wants is of a seeking of helping us keep him first. Because when we help to keep God first, number one, and number two, we don't have idols that we bow down to, that we place above him. Like, let's take an example of motherhood.
 
Let's say the idol might be, um, I have to have super smart children. Let's put it that way. You know, your joy is going to be robbed when you keep sacrificing to that idol, because that's a trap.
 
Like the enemy wants to trap you there to make the wrong sacrifices. And that is why I think God knows this. Like he's telling us right in those 10 commandments, you know, you need to keep me first.
 
You can have no, do not worship to idols. Because when you're making the sacrifices to eternal God, who is the author of joy, the author of love, the author of peace, those are the things he gives back to you. No other idol can give you peace.
 
No other idol can give you joy. So, I think when we look at the lack of joy that we see in a lot of our homes in our culture, it's because we've been ensnared into an idolatry where we're making the wrong sacrifices. We're sacrificing things that we don't realize the consequence of that until we're in it.
 
And we're like, wait, this didn't produce the happiness and joy that I expected it to produce. Cause we were tricked.
 
Laura Dugger: (17:19 - 17:27) Do you have any examples from your own life or friend's stories where that really comes to life?
 
Amy Rienow: (17:27 - 21:22) Oh boy. There's lots of examples and lots of friends stories, but I'm going to say one that's more of a story that I'm well aware of and not, you know, personally walk hand with. But I think it's always struck with me because it was so painful story. You know, I grew up, I've raised a lot of athletes in my home and my son, especially my first born very athletic boy.
 
And we were kind of at the beginning of the cusp of how important travel was, you know what I mean? Travel baseball and travel, you know, sports in general. And there's that pressure.
 
You need to choose this. You need to do this or else you are going to, you know, ruin the advantages for your child. If you don't do this, even if choosing that is going to mean you're going to sacrifice family time, you're going to sacrifice finances.
 
You are going to sacrifice your Sundays. I could go on and on. The world will tell you you have to do this in order to get to the prize that you're looking for, or your son is going to be disadvantaged.
 
If you don't choose that. And it took a lot to be like, no, we're not going to make, we're not going to make that trade. And there was a lot of pressure.
 
There's a lot of pressure with our son, you know what I mean? With him feeling sometimes neglected and having to deal in that relationship. So, it's not like that's immediate happiness or immediate joy, you know, but what did it did allow us to disciple him through all that.
 
It allowed us to see God, you know, use him, whatever team he was on, give him a lot of joy in sports. The blessing of it is that we saw him in high school, you know, excel in baseball, always rise to the top, win character awards. He eventually did go on to play college baseball and AIA, not like D1, but he got to play, got to use that gift to pay for his education.
 
But most importantly, he was a joyful, happy kid. Baseball didn't control his life. And I just praise God for that.
 
And in contrast, he, at the same, his age, same age level, there were these two boys who were twins were very well known for being top, top, top, top players. And they were just elevated in many circles we were in. And, you know, you, when you're in the baseball world, baseball moms will understand this, you know who the top players are.
 
You see the name, like, you know, when your son's in the paper for something, you know, he was listed in the number of top of DuPage kids. And obviously that's a feather in your cap and you're really proud of that. These boys were top of the top D1, but I'll never forget.
 
They went to different D1 schools and one of them ended up taking his own life his freshman year. I believe it just the most devastating thing. I could not, I cannot speak to any of those situations.
 
I don't know his family background. I do not know any history of at all. All I can say is it hit me really hard in the sense that these were the boys that so many parents were envying, envying of their success and of their status.
 
And that was so jolting to, to know that they'd received, you know, hit so many of these incredible hurdles that every parent thinks they want their kids to achieve. But obviously there was something amiss because there was a lack of joy, lack of happiness. I don't know the whole story.
 
But that just strikes me again of just how important it is to again, go back to keeping God first, make sure you're making the right sacrifices.
 
Laura Dugger: (21:23 - 22:43) That's a good word. It's such a sobering story, but making sure we're making the right sacrifices or really listening to God's counsel. That reminds me where I was this morning, Psalm 25.
 
I read it in the amplified version, but it was talking specifically that some of his guidance comes from his word. Like it's amazing. It's incredible.
 
It's important to pray and to be around others who are godly and do other spiritual rhythms, but there's nothing like reading his word to hear from him. And let me try and find the verses. Verse 14 in the amplified version says, “The secret of the wise counsel of the Lord is for those who fear him and he will let them know his covenant and reveal to them through his word, it's deep inner meaning.”
 
And the next verse, just the first part goes on to say, “My eyes are continually toward the Lord.” And that was such powerful takeaway this morning, but then I'm hearing it through the way that these lives played out. Because when you look, is it my understanding correct?
 
That you did travel sports, but they were not, your children chose not to do Sundays.
 
Amy Rienow: (22:44 - 25:52) Well, we did not even do travel sports for my oldest. It was back in the day when park district actually, you could, you know, like there were enough kids. So, we, my son did only park district all the way through eighth grade, but then he kind of, because he was like young for his age, he had one sort of gap year in between high school before he started like high school sports.
 
And that's when he did play a travel sport. We found one that honestly was not good at all. I don't think the level was any better than park district, but they accepted the no Sunday situation.
 
So, that's what we did. And you know, it was a losing team. Like he was on losing teams, like most of his baseball career until he got to high school.
 
So, it really was you know, the opposite of what the world said he needed. And yet he was able to, to rise and, and achieve. And honestly his high school experience was being able to always, he was a starter all the time and he his teams won.
 
So, it was like years of like, not, you know, kind of paying these prices I would say. And that's neither here or there. The winning or the losing is really not important.
 
The important was keeping baseball in its proper place, enjoying the gifts that God has given you, not letting, listening to the world. I'll just throw this in because we are what you said about sound. First of all, I love the amplified version.
 
So, that blessed me that you read the amplified, but you know, seeking the council, you, we must be as parents in his word, like regularly listening to how he's speaking to us because we also, it's so interesting. Rob and I live in a very interesting world. We had one foot, especially back then, one foot in the homeschool world, one foot in the public school area, public school community, lots of public school friends.
 
And then also the Christian school is where my son played. But you know, if we'd go to homeschool conference, there were tons of messages that you should not have your kids in sports at all. Sports are wrong.
 
Sports are a waste of time, you know? So, that was a strong message of sort of like condemnation almost for being in sports at all. So, my point is there was no one community that said, okay, this is the way, you know what I mean?
 
We had to seek the Lord, you know, for ourselves, for our family, for our son, knowing this was his love and his giftedness and continue to look for wisdom and how he should grow in those gifts. You know, and how he wanted to use it in his life, but not let it take over his life. And isn't that the lesson for all of us?
 
So, anyway, it depended on that seeking the counsel of him, both myself with my husband and then also with our W. It wasn't like we kept him out of the picture. We were praying the three of us for wisdom and all those things.
 
Laura Dugger: (25:53 - 26:42) I love hearing that because you're right. It's not about black and white decision of travel sports are always wrong or always right. But the main takeaway is seek the Lord because he has wisdom for our individual unique situation.
 
And I want to go back and close a few other loops. Sure. Please.
 
One of those being that even with perfectionism or with comparison or when we're choosing godly values that may contradict worldly values, I'm hearing a theme that there's a, it's a fight and that there's a spiritual battle. And you even said you had researched some of this, Amy, how do you personally learn about that and be aware of the spiritual realm?
 
Amy Rienow: (26:44 - 30:42) We, we really, I can't say it enough that we do need to be so aware of the spiritual realm. I didn't understand. I didn't understand in my early years of parenting at how important that was to pay attention to.
 
And here's the thing there's, I feel like there's the Lord brings us on a path along the way with the knowledge we need at the time. And then he wants us to stretch and grow and learn a little bit more. So, there was a season in my life.
 
When especially we began homeschooling, the Lord brought us into all these new teachings that we didn't really understand was so powerful. It was so wonderful. We were very blessed by all of those teaching and the conferences that we were attending.
 
But what began to happen for me is that the perfectionism that I knew was there kind of gotten folded into that teaching because all of a sudden I kind of wore as a spiritual, like pride that I, I called it my noble list. Now I, when I talk about my book, Not So Perfect Mom, I, this is not in the book, but this is part of my talks. Like I kind of replaced the world's list of great athlete, great, you know, so smart, all those things with my noble list.
 
My child will have wonderful character. My child will read God's word. My child will know what it means to serve, but you see what I mean?
 
We're still dealing with a list. God had to call me out of that way of thinking back to the importance of a relationship with him, meaning for myself and meaning for my kids. Because when my oldest was 12, I was starting to see that we could be raising a Pharisee. If we keep focusing on this noble list, like if he knows all of his Proverbs, if he obeys perfectly, if he, you know what I mean?
 
Like life is not supposed to be, God never called us to do that. He desires a daily relationship with us. And that's what he desires for our kids.
 
So, that was beginning to suffocate my oldest for sure. And my, I would say, and my daughter right underneath him because they felt the weight of this, you know, we need to arise to this, this standard. So, like that perfectionism can take on this, this type of robe that makes you feel very noble about it.
 
Especially if you're in certain circles, like spiritual circles, where if your kids look right, dress right. You know, say yes, ma'am and yes, sir. Then we're all assuming that they're wonderful and we're not really getting to the heart underneath, but that is, there's a tension and a spiritual battle.
 
That's far. That's super important to pay attention to. And the way the Lord showed that to me is that I would often say the phrase in conversation.
 
Oh, it's a battle. Oh, it's a battle. We're in a battle.
 
I'm the Lord. I don't know what they gave me a vision. That's too strong word, but I had this sort of, I, I guess it's a vision.
 
I imagine that I was on, I was sitting in a coffee, like at a table with a friend drinking coffee. And we were just, you know, chatting and yet that coffee table was in the middle of this bloody battlefield. And the Lord was just kind of showing me, this is how your attitude is about saying that it's in a battle.
 
Like you're sitting here, just talking with your friends, drinking coffee and chatting and laughing. And this is the battlefield. It's all around you.
 
What are you doing about the battle? You know, when you are following after the Lord, you need to expect opposition. You need to understand that your kids are under spiritual attack.
 
And if we're not praying and putting on that full armor of God and recognizing it, we're not engaged in it.
 
Laura Dugger: (30:42 - 31:41) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?
 
Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials? Anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love. If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.
 
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Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.
 
When you go back to your family of origin, did your father ever find a saving faith in Jesus Christ as well?
 
Amy Rienow: (31:41 - 33:11) He did. He did actually. That's such a wonderful question. And he did when my husband and I were married for about a year. And he, at Christmas day in front of our whole family, after we were sitting at the table at dinner, he kind of waited for all the gifts to be open and be at a different spot.
 
And he said, “Well, I opened one more gift today and it was the gift of salvation.” Wow. I still tear up thinking about it and thinking about my older brother's response, who was not an emotional person.
 
And I saw tears in my older brother's eyes, but I just want to even in saying that, that taught me a lot because even at the time when he accepted salvation, he even said, I don't necessarily believe all the Bible's true. He really, you know, he accepted in faith and now he doesn't, you know, the Lord took him from evolutions. Now he's probably more conservative or believes the Bible in a way that I would say many other Christians maybe wouldn't believe, but I'm saying that it was a process watching him grow.
 
And my kids don't even understand that, that we call him Bop Bop. He used to be a man who, you know, let the communion plate pass every week. And he was not a believer because they see him so much as a spiritual leader now, but you see how faith moves and how faith changes us.
 
And we need to be patient with God in ourselves, with our kids, you know, and trust in that walk with Him. Love it.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:12 - 33:23) Well, I'm going to change gears here a little bit. Yeah. Will you explain attachment and share why you're so passionate about this topic?
 
Amy Rienow: (33:24 - 37:18) That is, I do feel like I love talking about attachment. I feel like it's an underrated thing to talk about. Some of you might be familiar.
 
I don't know if any of these names like Mary Ainsworth or the Harlow experience, you remember the monkey Harlow experience. It's most, most kids who've had like even a high school psychology class, know that the story of the monkey who has the wire surrogate mom with the bottle. And then has like the fuzzy mom that doesn't have the bottle and the monkey goes and gets its food from the bottle of the wire mom but continues to go over to the furry surrogate mom for comfort.
 
That's some of the original psychology on attachment but I was started my professional job in a school with children with behavior disorders and autism. That's one of my first jobs. And, and because of that, I went to different seminars for continuing education.
 
And one of them was a woman who specialized in attachment. And part of the reason she specialized in attachment because she'd adopted so many children and she was sort of a professional on adoption. And that's when I really did a deeper dive into attachment and specifically something called reactive attachment disorder.
 
I can't go into that. It would be a long tangent. But she was such an eye-opening time.
 
And this is even before I had children. But she said that, you know, she couldn't say everything she wanted to about attachment and the effects specifically of daycare on children, because it wasn't politically correct. That she would lose her funding basically, if she gave her true opinion on some of the things that our culture was doing to destroy attachment among families.
 
And it was just very eye opening to me that, you know, when we get our baby development books, the time that I was having kids, it was What to Expect When You're Expecting and What to Expect for Your One Year Old and all these milestones that moms are looking for. And obviously moms generally love their kids. I will stand by that over and over, you know what I mean?
 
That's the norm. And, you know, you're told to look for all of these milestones, but really attachment is not even mentioned in this book of how important it is. What are the signs of a securely attached child?
 
And yet this is so significant. And it's not just in the Christian world that we can recognize this. This is universally known in the psychology world, how important attachment is.
 
So, let's go back to that spiritual battle. Why is it that that is not discussed? Or why is that not focused in the development book?
 
Or why is it that if you're going to adopt a child, you're going to learn all about attachment, but that's not something that you may necessarily come into contact with if you're just having your own children. But attachment is essential for all healthy relationships. And specifically attachment with the mother.
 
I mean, we can use the term primary caregiver. Yes, to other people come in and be a primary care. I'm not saying that, you know. It's not just the mom, but this relationship with the mom, this, this attachment is so significant because God created it that way.
 
And it, how that relationship and how that attachment happens will have this impact on all the other relationships that your child is going to have in their life. So, it's something that we need to be talking about. And I pray that it becomes more and more common for people to talk about it.
 
Laura Dugger: (37:18 - 37:25) Well, and I'm even curious that speaker was that Karen Purvis?
 
Amy Rienow: (37:25 - 38:04) Oh, I don't even remember her name. I apologize. She was not a Christian. She was not a believer.
 
She, well, if she was, I don't know that. Cause I was, I was listening to her in a secular setting. You know, so she might've been, I don't, so I don't know, but I, the reason why it was so curious to me that the time most of the children on my case list that I had at this school were adopted.
 
So, I found that so interesting, like, and that was why I went to her seminar to try to understand more that connection of the adoption. And you know, how did that play into some of the problems that these children were, were having.
 
Laura Dugger: (38:05 - 38:20) Well, and just to go a little bit further with attachment, let's take it from the positive side. What are some proven examples or ways that we can form that healthy attachment with our children and that bonding?
 
Amy Rienow: (38:21 - 40:38) Yeah, well, a lot of it is just a spending time with your child, you know, and that's why I want to be very gentle here. Cause the world that we live in, I mean, I know for a fact that there are so many moms in situations where they have to go back to work right away. There are difficult circumstances.
 
And I'm, I am not here to say that then you don't have an attached relationship with child. Cause that is honestly not true. But I will say that if you have any opportunity to be home with your children, please, please, please take that opportunity because your children need that contact with you to form that attachment.
 
I mean, the number one thing for attachment is presence, time, touch, eye contact, and smiles. I mean, like it is what the baby that interplay that's happening with the baby and the mother and, and the why babies love faces. I mean, like they, we need to have that time with our children.
 
We need to be the ones to know our children the best that only comes with time. But even a mom who maybe for reasons have to be away from their baby, the important thing is that when you're with them, that you are engaged. You know, I even, I don't have my phone in front of me.
 
Even the phone takes away attachment. You know, when you're looking at another screen, as opposed to paying attention to that communication with the baby long before they're communicating long for the communicating with words, they are interacting and communicating with you. So, God knew what he's doing when he created mothers with the ability to feed their babies.
 
Nursing enables attachment, you know, because the baby is dependent on the mother. So, all of these things play into why God created our system the way it is because it was designed not to just physically feed our babies, but to emotionally create this attached, secured relationship where that enables a child to feel safe, feel security.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:39 - 40:54) Well, that makes me think of another a word that you wisely encourage us. And that is the word affection. So, can you share why this is also important to shower on our children?
 
Amy Rienow: (40:55 - 43:47) Yes. You know how it is when you become a mom, there's all these new parenting styles out there, things that you get bombarded with, or should I do this? Or, you know, and I think I was really impacted by a Bible, small group where a woman was talking about her six-month-old needing disciplining her six-month-old.
 
And it hit me really negatively because I just heard a woman who had had like, I think she has 17 children who talked about, you know, there's, you cannot spoil and she used, you cannot spoil anybody under the age of two. I would say it's as much as under three with as far as attention and love and affection, affection, your children need your affection. Again, let's go to how this, how Satan, let's go back to that spiritual battle.
 
We can keep going back. Cause I often find you can see God's truth with how it's perverted in the world. So, let's look at how we have a sex education system now in so many schools, including in Illinois that tries to teach younger children horrific adult sexual behaviors, correct?
 
And they are manipulating what needs to, what children do need, which is positive, a non-sexual physical connection with their parents, with their siblings, with aunts and uncles. So, so in some ways I can remember early in my career and either in my development in getting my classes, my masters, you know, in some ways they demonize, you know, like parents are afraid to sometimes have too much physical touch or too much of this because it's almost like, Oh, we can't, you know, we have to make sure our children are more independent, you know, like, like for example, co-sleeping, which builds a lot of affection between parents, which is normal in most cultures and normal throughout history can be viewed as really negative. Like, you know, you gotta get your kid in another room and another, like pushing them out early and yet look at what we see from the world, which is an encroachment of inappropriate touch, inappropriate sexuality at younger and younger ages.
 
And obviously kids who don't have positive, strong, physical affection are more inclined to fall for Satan's counterfeit. And desire and need touch, but they, they, it's been twisted from the world's perspective.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:47 - 44:17) Does that make sense? Are you tracking with that? I am.
 
And it's even making me think of a previous guest, Dr. Gary Chapman, talking about mostly the five love languages of in marriage and how those are displayed. But we also discussed with children and the parent child. And I'm just thinking as you're giving examples of affection, it, it even goes beyond the hugs and kisses and appropriate touch to acts of service and lighting up with them and spending that quality time and all those love languages.
 
Amy Rienow: (44:18 - 46:16) That's right. As the kids get older, I mean, my, my, we joke about, you know, I have certain sons that, did not want to be touched at all when they were 13, 14. We laughed at my son J.D. like he would want to come give me hugs and he would want to, but it had to always be on his terms.
 
Like I could never come up, you know what I mean? And how can you, my affection towards him was I'll get you a double cheeseburger. I will make you a milkshake.
 
That was the way I communicated my affection to him, but it was also my presence in listening to him when he needed to be listening to. There's so many ways as we get older. Right.
 
And I love Gary Chapman's work as far as like understanding our kids love, love languages, but I'll never forget, you know, I just had JD's wedding and he surprised me with the mother son dance and he had a song ready for me. I'm going to cry again, but it was this wonderful, he had told his siblings that he was probably going to cry on his wedding day when he saw Brooke and when he danced with his mom. And I had so many, and he was really hugging me and holding on and not afraid to be affectionate with me during that dance.
 
And that's because affection has always been a normal part of our home and a normal part of our relationship. And so, I just want to encourage parents out there not to be afraid of both physical affection when they're young and don't push your child. If your child is needing you or wants hugs, I would say, don't hesitate to give those to them because there is a culture again that pushes kids like, Oh, you shouldn't need that now.
 
You shouldn't, you're too old for that. Let them determine those boundaries. You give them the hugs and the affection as long as they still want it.
 
Cause I promise you they're all going to come to a day and they're not gonna want it. And you don't need to worry about if they're looking for that for you, it's a need that, that you can still meet.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:17 - 46:34) Well, and one other piece of parenting. I know we oftentimes hear mom guilt. I don't know if dads experienced the same thing, but how can we overcome that?
 
And what do you see as being at the root of struggling with sometimes that false guilt?
 
Amy Rienow: (46:35 - 49:52) Yes. Well, that I think comes so much again. Well, for me, it came internalized.
 
I had, I carried some internalized guilt with me, but that's compounded by a culture that puts so many expectations and demands on us as mothers. Where we are bombarded with another ideal, another sense of where we're falling short. And again, I know I keep coming back to the spiritual attack, but the point is I want to lay it out there that sometimes, sometimes moms can feel like, especially in an area, this sounds interesting, but because so many more children have been in daycare or exposed to a lot more developmental things at young ages. If you are like home with your kids, if you feel like, well, gosh, I'm not providing a craft every day.
 
I'm not, you know, I'm not reading. I went to the library and it literally had this whole campaign on a thousand books before kindergarten. Like, are you kidding me?
 
And that's the kind of thing. It's like, you're just having a normal mom day and all of a sudden you walk into the library and you get bombarded with what? I'm supposed to read my child a thousand books before, like a new standard that's just put in front of you.
 
And the enemy uses that to, to make women feel that they're not enough, you know? And first of all, we have to go back to God's word. That says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
 
And to really understand that, yes, we need to be open to be convicted to sin. But when we are convicted of something that our heavenly father wants us to change, we will experience a freedom and a lightning when we repent. And it'll be like a burden lifted up.
 
And as soon as you have that revenge, you feel like you've been given a gift. It's not something that's a burden. So, that is always my guide for women.
 
Like if you are under something that you feel like is a burden that you're carrying around, um, this sense that you're not doing enough or that you're a bad mom, that is not coming from your Heavenly Father. You need to reject that in the name of Jesus Christ, because this sense is clearly from the accuser. The Bible says Satan is an accuser and he stands accusing us, but Jesus is there to, you know, to say, no, that's my child.
 
They're covered by my love covered by my grace. So, we don't want to live under that over that guilt, bad mom guilt shadow for whatever, you know, God knows our faults. He doesn't expect us not to have faults, and your children are going to have faults and your husband are going to have faults.
 
So, if we think that the Lord is, you know, carrying around our faults, hanging over this, we need to, we need to be reminded that that's not from him and we have to reject it. And again, we're talking about a spiritual battle. You might have to reject the same lie 20 times a day until you find real freedom from falling for that guilt trap.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:53 - 50:12) Well, and along those lines, as you talk about engaging in the battle, you encourage us as children to woo our children in this same way that the Lord draws us close to him. So, how can we go and do likewise as the Lord does?
 
Amy Rienow: (50:12 - 52:09) Woo our children's hearts. Like I think it's important to know that the relationship that we have, our kids will, the more we model our relationship, our parenting off of how our heavenly father parents us, the easier it will be for our kids to kind of what I, I have a visual in my mind that I'm walking with my child's hand and I'm holding Jesus hand and I'm gradually through this parenting, trying to connect my child's hand to Jesus hands.
 
Like that's the picture that I want to be guiding my parenting, not I'm trying to raise you to be X, Y, Z, da, da, da, da, da. I'm trying to lead you to your Heavenly Savior. So, you're going to walk with Him.
 
So, Jesus is, you know, there's many components of our relationship with Jesus and the Heavenly Father and Holy spirit. But one of them is that God woos the hearts of his people. When you read scripture, He desired, He's always telling them you walk with Me.
 
“My burden is easy. My yoke is light.” You know what I mean?
 
He's, He's showing us this freedom and this love and grace. He's not coming with a sense of, see, you're doing this and this and this and this and this. And that's why. You know what I mean?
 
Like you see God's everlasting love for his people. And we want to woo our children with that same kind of everlasting love. You know, I always say, say you can, you can demand your kids to obey you.
 
You can demand your kids to respect you, but no one can demand love. Even our Heavenly Father doesn't demand love. He gives us free will and choice to choose to love him.
 
And so, we want to remember that with our kids to woo them. We want them to choose to love us. So, we woo our hearts.
 
You already mentioned Gary Chapman by understanding our kids' love languages. You know, realizing that's part of our job as a parent is to woo their hearts.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:10 - 53:13) So, I love how you're drawing this out as the Lord being the best parent ever and that we can learn from Him. That was something that I felt like he was really teaching me in my quiet time this week. And I wanted to take it one step further.
 
So, for me applying that, I just made a note on my phone and now anytime I come across a parenting scripture, I want to put it in this same list and go back and review it and be prayerful that the Lord can change me to be more like Him as a parent. So, I'm just going to share the first verse that inspired me to do this this week is Luke 6:36 and the amplified version again, “Be merciful, responsive, compassionate, tender, just as your Heavenly Father is merciful.” And so, Amy, just as He's a great parent and we can learn from Him, I appreciate you just drawing us back, pointing us to the heart of the Father.
 
And if we want to continue learning from you after this chat, where would you like to direct us?
 
Amy Rienow: (53:13 - 55:30) Well, I'd love you to come to our website at visionaryfam.com and listen to us at our podcast, Family Vision. You know, we named it Family Vision kind of like television because television really changed the American family. It did when it first introduced on to the scene and our heart is that family vision.
 
Our podcasts would help give your family a new vision, a vision from God's word for all that he wants to do in your family. You can also find our books well on our website, but also on Amazon. We have, I brought a couple today, but Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most, which is what you're talking about today.
 
And this book is very close to my heart because it really was wonderful. It was the easiest book I've ever written because I just felt like it was being able to talk about how God has worked in my own life and my own journey. And it just was the like culmination of so many conversations I've had with moms like all over the country, but really overseas and over the world.
 
And we're all battling some of the same exact things. So, I just, I would encourage you to pick up Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most. And then the other book that is, it's not new, it's called Shine Embracing God's Heart for You.
 
I'm actually leading a group of women through it on a zoom study right now. Um, but I actually wrote this, originally back in 2005 when I was a youth pastor's wife. Um, but really it's all about kind of what I talked about earlier of just, recognizing how to, to trust and believe the Lord.
 
I said, you know, wholeheartedly with our head and our hearts and our hands and, and really going back to, you know, keeping God first, identifying idols in our life. So, we, you know, the more that we get our own relationship with the Lord centered and we kind of figured that part out. I feel like everything flows from that in our homes, in our marriage, in our other relationships. So, I highly recommend, um, picking up this shine and there's a prayer journal to go with it.
 
There's a leader's guide. If you'd like to lead a group and that's all on Amazon or at our website.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:31 - 55:48) Wonderful. As always we'll add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode and Amy, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Amy Rienow: (55:48 - 57:06) I love that question. My Savvy Sauce is actually mentioned in Not So Perfect Mom, but it's when the Lord gave me that quote, “whatever is worth doing is worth doing poorly.” I feel that perfectionism kept me paralyzed so often.
 
If I couldn't do things exactly the way I thought that they should be in my head, then I was kind of pathetic and wasn't going to do it at all. And so, my encouragement in any area, if you know something is worth doing. Let me give you a practical example really quick on this, even when it comes to like, um, when you're struggling with your marriage. I know I had some issues in my marriage with my husband where I was getting to the point where I didn't even really want to go out on a date, you know, because it was just discouraging and whatever's worth doing is worth doing poorly. So, knowing that, you know, even when my relationships aren't living up to my expectations, or even when I'm feeling hurt, the Lord tells us to press on. Don't, don't stop doing what you know, God wants you to do, um, because you don't think it's living up to your expectations.
 
Do it. Just do it.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:07 - 57:38) That's a good word. And Amy, you have so much to share. Our family has benefited so much from the ministry and work that you and Rob do through Visionary Families.
 
And I am just so grateful for your time and you just to share all of this parenting wisdom. It felt like a mentoring conversation. I loved hearing all the ways that you've been intentional in what you've learned from the Lord. So, thank you for seeking Him.
 
Thank you for sharing with us and thank you for being my guest.
 
Amy Rienow: (57:39 - 57:58) Thank you, Laura, for having me. It's been a delight. I love connecting hearts with people who are like-minded.
 
I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce. In fact, my neighbor is one of your devoted followers, and she was so excited to hear about your podcast. So, thank you so much for having me and it's truly an honor and a pleasure to be here.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:59 - 1:01:13) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

271_Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell
 
*Transcription Below*
 
1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."
 
Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.
 
Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What insights do you have to share on Gen-Z?
When it comes to navigating intergenerational tensions, how can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together?
In your most recent book, entitled, Future-Focused Church, you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead. What led you to that realization?
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
 
Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw
2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman
 
Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series:
233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel
235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer
242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel
245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow
246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
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I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus.
Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.
 
Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.
 
So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.
 
And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.
 
And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.
 
But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.
 
Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.
 
So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.
 
And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.
 
And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.
 
And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?
 
And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.
 
And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.
 
And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.
 
And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.
 
And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?
 
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Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.
 
And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.
 
And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.
 
This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.
 
And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.
 
So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.
 
And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.
 
We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.
 
But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.
 
And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.
 
So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.
 
It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.
 
And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.
 
So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.
 
Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.
 
And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.
 
Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.
 
Do you have any insight onto them as well?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.
 
And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.
 
So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.
 
And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?
 
It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.
 
I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.
 
And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?
 
Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.
 
And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?
 
Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.
 
First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.
 
But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?
 
Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.
 
And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.
 
So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.
 
And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.
 
I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.
 
Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.
 
And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.
 
And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.
 
But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.
 
And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.
 
And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.
 
And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.
 
Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.
 
Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.
 
She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.
 
You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?
 
Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy. 
 
This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.
 
So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.
 
So, what led you to this optimistic realization?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.
 
Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.
 
So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.
 
We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.
 
And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.
 
So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.
 
And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.
 
But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.
 
And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.
 
Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.
 
So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.
 
Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.
 
And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.
 
I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.
 
So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.
 
And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids’ events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.
 
And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.
 
And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.
 
One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.
 
I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.
 
And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.
 
And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.
 
And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.
 
And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.
 
Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.
 
So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.
 
Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.
 
Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.
 
Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.
 
So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”
 
She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”
 
And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.
 
And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.
 
Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?
 
They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.
 
And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?
 
And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?
 
What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.
 
And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.
 
Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?
 
But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that. 
 
And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.
 
And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?
 
But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?
 
And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.
 
Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?
 
And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?
 
And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.
 
And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.
 
So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.
 
It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?
 
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.
 
That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.
 
And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.
 
And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.
 
So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?
 
Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?
 
Goodness.
 
Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read?
Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.
 
Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.
 
How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.
 
But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.
 
As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.
 
I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.
 
Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.
 
That's been game changing for me.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.
 
And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.
 
Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news. 
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. 
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. 
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin. 
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. 
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him. 
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started. 
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. 
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. 
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special_Patreon_Release_Purpose in Pain and Suffering with Doug Rumbold

Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep your word.”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Doug Rumbold is a child of the living God, a loving husband to Jessica, and father to Jada, Oliver, and Pierce. Currently he is the Pastor of Counseling & Discipleship at Northfield Christian Fellowship where he has pastored since 2006. He desires for others to be transformed into Christlikeness through authentic relationships. He holds a biblical counseling certificate from CCEF, a Bachelor’s in Youth Ministry/ Adolescent Studies, and a Master’s of Ministry in Theology.
 
Connect with Doug on Instagram, Facebook, or schedule a counseling session through his website or order Doug's Book.
 
Presence over Pain Podcast
When did you experienced your first major loss?
What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible?
Will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where He responded with alliteration?
 
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.
 
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria. 
 
Doug Rumbold is my guest today. He is a pastor of counseling and discipleship, and he has recently written a book entitled Presence Over Pain. With Doug's biblical foundation and his sense of humor, he's now going to share some personal stories of suffering and God's continued faithfulness.
 
He illustrates how a yearness of God is oftentimes born through trial. So, regardless of what each of us are walking through today, Doug's going to remind us that we have the opportunity to turn toward Christ. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Doug.
 
Doug Rumbold: (1:39 - 1:42) It's exciting to be here, even virtually.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 2:02) Well, and its always kind of special to have a local friend join me as a guest on the podcast. But for those who don't know you yet, I think it would be really helpful to hear your story and gain some context around what led you to write this book. So, will you just begin by sharing your story with us?
 
Doug Rumbold: (2:03 - 6:09) Yeah, I love stories in general. I think when I look at Scripture, three-quarters of it, roughly, is a narrative. It's a story.
 
And so, God's heart for story is just critical, even in His communication of truth and His love for us. So, it means everybody's story matters. So, my little story matters.
 
And I think mine's an interesting one. To begin with, I was born and raised in Morton, Illinois. And I was born the seventh of eight children.
 
So, my parent’s kind of did this, like, unbelievable quantity of births in a short amount of time. I'm not a woman, so I don't understand how this works. But I assume that having eight children in 10 years is crazy.
 
And they somehow managed to do that. So, I grew up in a loving Christian home. My dad was a phenomenal example of intention and direct when it came to conflict, merciful and forgiving when it needed to be called upon.
 
My mom was and still is somebody who she could have a conversation with anyone. I love my mom, her ability to just dive deep into conversation. I remember my college years.
 
My friends from college would actually love to come home to be with my parents, which is kind of odd. A bunch of college guys like, “Hey, can we come back from the big city of Chicago and go hang with your parents in the farm town?” Sure.
 
Yeah, enjoy. So, I grew up seventh of eight. My oldest sister passed away before I was born at the age of four.
 
She was actually buried on her fourth birthday, sadly. She passed away from leukemia. And then my youngest brother passed away my freshman year of college, which I talk about in the book a little bit.
 
So, for all of my growing up years, there were seven of us, not eight. And then the family just kind of continued to expand. Everybody eventually got married and had children.
 
And now on my side of the family, there's 35 grandkids. So, those are like pre-Medicaid type family backgrounds. You know, like you get together and everybody's going to take a Tylenol before because it's gonna be nice and loud and crazy.
 
But I would say from just a believing perspective at eight years old, I remember being in the basement of my church in Morton. My Sunday school teacher just giving a really compelling description, not just of how like, oh, you're going to burn, but more of a what does it look like to be separated from God for eternity? What might that be like?
 
And I was terrified but also had enough of these people pleasing mentality that I also didn't want to be the person who asked another question and held the class up. So, later on, I found out that it was easier for me to have that conversation. I think my mom discovered me kind of in tears, maybe even later that day.
 
And it was like, I don't think I know Jesus. And she's like, well, we can like, let's have a conversation. What's that look like?
 
And let's pray together. And so, at eight was when that became a reality in my life. And then really at 15 years old, coming home from a mission trip to Mexico, I ended up having just an awesome experience there and got baptized by a minister from our church.
 
His name was Dwayne. He was awesome. And then as I think through just, I mean, I mentioned it already, our family is really well acquainted with loss.
 
My oldest sister, my youngest brother, and then just some of our ongoing journey. My wife has an ongoing illness that requires a lot. It is a challenge for sure for her.
 
And then I think all of that kind of balls up together to frame a lot of where the content from my book comes from. Just living a life of non-ease has really kind of brought me to this place of if it's not going to go away or if it hasn't been taken away, what is it that sustains and how do I move through it and past it?
 
Laura Dugger: (6:09 - 6:32) And I definitely want to hear more elements of the book. But first, I'm just thinking through this. You said seven of eight and your youngest brother and you all are close in age.
 
So, to bring us into your story further, what age were you when you suffered that major loss of your brother and how did he pass away?
 
Doug Rumbold: (6:32 - 9:06) Yeah, that's a great question. So, my parents had all of us in 10 years. So, in 1969, they were married.
 
1970 is when they started cranking out children. And then 1980 was when my brother after me was born. And then it was 1997.
 
So, it's actually Halloween night of 1997. So, I was a freshman in college. I just moved away.
 
This was before cell phones. It's almost hard to imagine. But I was lying in my bed at night.
 
And my brother, my other brother, Ed, was at college with me as well as my sister, Jennifer, in the West suburbs in Elgin. And my brother tried to contact me because Ben had been in a car accident. So, he had been taking a walk with this girl he was getting to know.
 
And we live out in the country in Morton. So, you'll recognize these road names just because we're local. But if you know Tennessee, Tennessee and Harding, there's that intersection.
 
And my family grew up on Harding. But going down Tennessee Avenue, going north, a gentleman who actually ended up being our neighbor was coming over top of the hill. And he was changing a cassette tape, also a relic of the past.
 
And he was changing the cassette tape. And my brother was walking on the side of the road with traffic. So, his back was to oncoming traffic.
 
And the car struck him from behind. And he was essentially and effectively dead at the scene, but kind of for the benefit. And I will talk about this in the book a little bit.
 
The benefit of us, my other two siblings and I in Chicago, they, you know, rushed him straight to the hospital and then put him on life support. But he never had brain activity or anything from the moment that he arrived at the hospital till the following morning. We were asked, you know, how we wanted to continue.
 
And probably in the hardest decision that I've watched my dad make was to pull the power cord on life support. I mean, my dad was all about responsibility and he wasn't going to let somebody else do that. And my dad was also very quick in his ability to make a decision, even if the decision was hard.
 
And so, he just knew this was not, you know, technically Ben could have survived on life support. But he would have none of the vitality that he had had his entire 17 years prior. And so, that just was not an option.
 
Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:29) Goodness, Doug, I can't imagine that's one of those decisions you hope to never have to make as a parent. And then with your family grieving this sudden loss and then also working through forgiveness of a neighbor. What did that look like?
 
Doug Rumbold: (9:30 - 14:14) That's actually one of the most redeeming. I mean, again, God does this where he just kind of the Genesis 50 moment where it's like what the devil intended for harm. God meant for good.
 
And I remember his name was Mark. He's since passed. It happened in 97.
 
And I remember him coming to the door, you know, how people come to your house, and they provide condolences after a loss. And so, Ben was well known at high school. He worked with special needs children and was in the performing arts.
 
And so, he was just really well liked. And so, there was a high school kid. So, there's a steady stream of people coming, grieving kids, all that.
 
And I remember coming back from college and I remember not saying, I literally did not say a word for three days. My way of processing then was very inward. And so, I just remember being very silent.
 
I should correct myself. I didn't say a word other than what I'm about to tell you. Mark came to the house and Mark was in his mid-40s at the time.
 
And he was crushed. I mean, can you imagine what that would be like? And so, he shows up at the house.
 
And as he's coming up to the door, I remember my dad saying he pulls all of us kids aside. He says, “I want to tell you something. Mark is here.
 
He's coming up to the door. And right now, you have a choice. Forgiveness is never about how you feel.
 
It's about obedience. If you will forgive him now, I promise you will never struggle with bitterness toward him in this way. But it is an act of your will.
 
You must choose to forgive. But I'm not going to make you do so, like if you don't want to forgive him, that's fine. But I'm telling you right now, forgiveness is key.”
 
And I remember walking out to the door and greeting Mark and just giving him a hug and then looking at him in the eyes as a 19-year-old freshman in college and saying, “hey, Mark, I've done what you've done 100 times. You know, I've swerved off the side of the road. And so, I just want to let you know, I hold no ill will against you, and I completely forgive you.”
 
And he didn't really know what to say, just kind of mumbled some level of gratitude, I think. But it was kind of quiet. I had no idea the power in that moment that was happening where I was not bound to hold it against him.
 
And my dad was right. How many years are we removed from this? And I still had I never once thought, oh, what a jerk.
 
I can't believe you. I never struggled with anger toward God over the loss of my brother. These were things that I think could have happened had I held on to not being forgiven and not released Mark from that.
 
And probably the greater redemption happened over the years where over the next seven years, he would see my parents or my family around town, and he would always kind of hang his head. And my dad would always make it a point to say hi and to try to contact him and be kind. But Mark was just sullen, and it was difficult.
 
And then later on, Mark ended up having a pretty aggressive form of cancer. And by this point, my wife and I got married in January before. And I'll never forget.
 
We went to Carolina Beach. We lived in North Carolina at the time for just a quick getaway, the two of us. And we were coming back.
 
And on the drive back, I remember receiving a call from my dad and he's crying on the phone. He says, “Well, Mark just passed away.” And he goes, “but before he did, he invited your mother and I up to his hospital room.”
 
And when we walked in the room, he looked at me, he said, “Gary, I have I have often wondered why and how. Why would you forgive me? How did you muster the strength to do such a thing?”
 
And my dad, in his simplicity or whatever, was like, “Well, it's easy. I've you know, I've been forgiven. Do you know how much I've done?
 
Do you know what hurt I've caused other people?” And he says, “It's only natural that I should forgive you for what happened. It wasn't your intention.
 
Jesus forgave me. And so, I forgive you. Just real simple.”
 
And in that moment, Mark then began to ask what motivates. And my dad got to explain a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so, literally on his deathbed, just prior to passing, Mark turned his heart over to the Lord.
 
I mean, it was awesome. And so, just such a powerful story of forgiveness.
 
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Now, back to the show. What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible?
 
Doug Rumbold: (19:50 - 21:29) Yeah, I'm not a theologian by any stretch, and so I'm sure I might be missing some. But I think when I look at all of Scripture, I guess I just kind of come away with three different forms of suffering. I see the first one that you kind of come across is the most poignant one is the suffering of Job.
 
Here's somebody who didn't do anything wrong, and he experiences catastrophic pain. So, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty is the first form. The second one is the suffering that I caused.
 
Now, obviously, this is the one we first confront in Scripture, in the narrative. We see it in Genesis 3. But the story that most poignantly points this out to me is the story of David and Bathsheba.
 
Here's a king who has everything he needs and wants, and he should be out protecting and defending his kingdom. And instead, he's on his rooftop looking and taking what is not his. And so, there's suffering that I cause.
 
My pastor in college used to say, “You choose to sin, you choose to suffer.” And I think it's an apt description. And then the third form of suffering is the suffering that my faith brings.
 
I think about the apostles where they are called in by the council and arrested and beaten and told not to speak in the name. And what do they do? They walk out rejoicing, like, yes, we've been counted worthy to suffer.
 
Like, yeah, that's so different than the American version of Christianity at the present moment. We don't necessarily think that way. So, in short order, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty, the suffering I cause in my sin, and the suffering my faith brings with persecution would be the three.
 
Laura Dugger: (21:30 - 21:42) Well, and I loved one of your quotes where you write, the earnest desire of my heart is that you come to understand the presence of God in and through suffering, no matter its cause.
 
Doug Rumbold: (21:43 - 22:03) Well, when I think about that, think of your own life, Laura. When you go back through ever since you just you surrendered your heart to Jesus, can you point to where were the deepest learning moments for you? What do you think?
How would you answer that question?
 
Laura Dugger: (22:04 - 22:26) I do feel like I may be an anomaly here because some of it is from those seasons of grief or searing loss. But also, I would say in the really good times, the gratitude and joy that he provides, those have been some of my greatest leaps in faith.
 
Doug Rumbold: (22:28 - 24:32) Yeah, I think that's huge. I think it's one of those reasons why you see in Scripture this idea of we're supposed to be people who are thanking God even through our suffering. I think it's that rhythm or that habit of gratitude that can transform even what may appear hard or difficult.
 
In the book, that quote that you just read, I think comes from this idea that God communicates his presence to us in different ways because of the form of suffering or hardship that we're facing. If I'm somebody who is suffering because of what God has allowed, I look at the idea of our daughter with cancer, for example, and I think, okay, the hardship that she faced, it would not make sense for her to frame her life and her hardship with suffering in terms of confession and forgiveness of sin. She didn't sin to get sick.
 
And so, the idea of how God's going to communicate his presence to her in the suffering that he allows is more about what does it mean to endure with patience and joy? How does she endure hardship with patience and joy? In those ways, in that way, rather, I think that's how God begins to communicate his presence to her.
 
His nearness to her means he's not far because something is wrong with her and she needs to be discarded. It's more that he is quite near, and it's the recognition of that. It's this like my heart can be glossed over by the pain I'm facing, whether God allows it, I cause it, or my faith brings it.
 
It can be glossed over if I have an inward curve, if I have like this inward turn of sin and I can miss. How does God want to communicate his presence to me through this? I think that overall, most of us focus more on the suffering that we're experiencing at times than we do on God's provided presence.
 
Laura Dugger: (24:33 - 24:54) And that reminds me of something else where you later write about Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word.” So, Doug, how did you experience the truth of this scripture through your experience with your daughter Jada?
 
Doug Rumbold: (24:56 - 27:57) Yeah, I think probably the safest and quickest description is pain has a way of getting our attention. Like your toe is just fine when you're walking to the kitchen at 2:00 a.m. to grab a drink of water and go back to bed. And then your toe makes its presence known when you kick the chair, right?
 
And you're like, oh, and then you're acutely aware of it. You know, you go back to bed and it's throbbing. You might put some ice on it.
 
Now it's cold. And pain is like that where it gets my attention when it's hit. And so, I was not aware, I don't think, of the depth of my self-reliance until every bit of control was removed from me.
 
So, particularly when I think of Jada's challenge, you know that before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word. There's this mercy in suffering that says ever so slightly, we are people who easily turn to ourselves and our resources before we will turn to God. My wife would say it this way, and I agree with her.
 
I think it's an excellent understanding of parenting. We both view parenting as a form of stewardship. So, if I get paid, which I do, you know, for my work as a pastor, I get paid, I steward that money.
 
It's not my money. The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills, right? So, if he owns everything, he owns even the finances that are put into my back pocket.
 
And the way that I steward it is the degree to which I am surrendered to him. And so, parenting is like that. God has given you the currency of children, and you have children that you are to steward back to God as an offering to him.
 
And my wife would say this, I just didn't know. I'm supposed to lay them down every day before the feet of God in full reliance and trust that he is a better parent than I will ever be. What happened in particular with our daughter showed how quickly we will take them back again, how quickly we will be people who will say, “Oh, well, I actually think I can make a better decision here than the Lord will.”
 
We would never say that out loud, but our control and our actions will illustrate that every day. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to get offended when your kid sins against you. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to be overwhelmed when your kid is far from you.
 
We can get to a place where though we are to steward our children back to God, like finances given to us, like children given to us, there's this idea we are supposed to be stewards. And so, I learned that I went astray from God. And I still do every day.
 
It's a thousand opportunities to return to him. Does that make sense or am I talking crazy?
 
Laura Dugger: (27:58 - 28:24) No, that makes that makes sense. And even I think you're talking about something probably a lot of us are relating to as parents of certain times where we really grasp we are not in control. So, will you even take us to that day where that first became a realization for you? Because you're a parent of I believe she was a five-year-old at the time. Is that right?
 
Doug Rumbold: (28:25 - 37:11) Yes, that day was awful. I would never want to repeat it. Jessica had it's not really a day, but a kind of a progression from kind of like a Thanksgiving time frame until January.
 
So, the short order is my wife was pregnant with our youngest and her date for delivery was supposed to be right after January 1st, because I remember thinking, are you kidding me? I'm going to miss the cutoff for claiming this dependent. And anyway, Thanksgiving, we had gone down to visit some dear friends of ours.
 
So, a shout out to John and Katrina. I'm sure they'll listen to this who live in Oklahoma. It's where I did my internship in college on like this orphan boys ranch.
 
It was awesome. I loved it and grew a great friendship with them. So, we were down there visiting them.
 
And my wife has this gallbladder attack. And the way she describes it, she felt like she was dying. And of course, she didn't wake me up because, you know, women can apparently experience pain and not make a big deal of it.
 
Men, that doesn't work. So, there's definitely a gender difference there. And so, she realizes as she's homeschooling Jada, this is not tenable.
 
I can't keep this up, especially if I'm going to have a child and everything. And so, we decided, oh, no big deal. We'll have just come back from our trip and decided we were going to put Jada in public school just for the last part of kindergarten.
 
And Jessica was going to give birth to the child and hopefully get the treatment that she needed because we took an ultrasound, and they discovered a bunch of gallstones. And it was rough. And so, we get back, and we go to the school, get the forms.
 
And basically, it was just filling out a couple of forms. Oh, yes. A bunch of check marks here, and a bunch of check marks there.
 
Get the dental form and all that. You need one last thing that we can't just sign away. You need to do a quick physical.
 
Now, Jada was feeling great doing everything. You know, all of her markers were fine. We go to a doctor from our church at the Tremont Medical Clinic and he performed just a simple physical.
 
And Jada was, you know, everything was just fine. And as he's palpating around her stomach, he's just kind of pressing there. And I don't know how doctors do this where they, you know, press on your stomach and they're like, OK, your organs are in the right place.
 
OK, I trust you. So, his face, like his countenance, just shifted. And Jessica and I were both in the room and he just kind of looks at me because I just can't reconcile this.
 
But to rule anything out, we're just going to have her get an ultrasound and be on our way. I remember thinking I had a hernia when I was young, maybe six months or something. I can't remember how old I was.
 
And so, Jessica and I went home that night and I mean, we were shedding tears like, oh, my goodness. Our sweet daughter has a hernia. Can't believe it.
 
What does this mean? She's going to have surgery, all this stuff. And never were we prepared for what happened next.
 
You know, the next morning she wakes up, and she takes Jada and Oliver, who's two at the time, to get the ultrasound in Peoria at a place called Peoria Imaging. And I stayed home. I was writing a sermon.
 
So, I'm sitting there working on a sermon from Mark, Chapter eight. And Jessica goes and I'm not hearing from her. I'm not hearing from her.
 
And then about three hours later, I got a call and she's like, so, they did an ultrasound and then they did like another one. And then they ordered a CT, and they just got done with the CT. And she goes and I just looked out in the waiting room and it's full and nobody's coming in.
 
And now they said that she needs an MRI. And I'm like, “What?” This doesn't seem like a hernia.
 
And she said, “Honey, I just asked the nurse, and they won't commit.” “Like they won't say anything,” I asked.
 
I kept asking if it's a hernia. And finally, I just asked one of the nurses, “Is it bad?” And the nurse said, “That she thinks it's significant.”
 
And I'm like, oh. And I remember that day then calling my dad or my parents and just kind of giving them updates along the way. Like, okay, you know, Jay is going in for a quick ultrasound, probably a hernia.
 
But then I remember calling my dad and my dad’s on the phone with me right after I got off with Jess. And I just said, “So, it went from just a quick ultrasound to CT to an MRI.” And I said, “They just finished the MRI or they're in process.”
 
And they said, “That after the MRI, they want to send her to the hospital for blood work.” And my dad's only response was, “Oh, boy. I mean, it was just like,” and his voice quivered.
 
You know, the quiver of like the I don't know if I'm ready for this sort of quiver. And I can only imagine what's going through his head, having already lost two children and particularly one to cancer. He knows that feeling.
 
So, the day only got longer from there. I got a ride over there with my sister-in-law to Puri Imaging. And then we went to the hospital together and had to get blood drawn and all that stuff.
 
And that's a whole story in and of itself, the trauma of that for her. But I remember leaving the hospital and Jessica and I know at this point with the full weight of this is not a hernia, but we still don't have answers. Like every time I'm asking a question to a doctor or a nurse, they are deferring and deferring and deferring.
 
And my anger internally is kind of growing. And so, I'm a little, I'm not aggressive, but I'm assertive. And I remember driving away from OSF in Peoria.
 
And as we're driving away, Jade is just in the back seat looking out the window. And Jessica and I are in the front seat, just crying, but trying to hold it together, you know. And I look in my rearview mirror.
 
I'm like, “Hey, sweetie.” And she's like, “Yeah.” “Like, what are you thinking about?”
 
She goes well. I just can't decide what smoothie I want at Smoothie King. That was the day where they, you know, the scan that she had to have was an NPO, which means she can't have any food or liquid unless it's clear.
 
And so, she was starving. And at this point it was like 6:30 at night. So, she's super hungry.
 
And so, we went to the first location and the second location. They were all closed between Christmas and New Year's. So, no Smoothie King for her.
 
And that was the last time we remember eating at McDonald's as a family. And then that night the diagnosis finally came. We got back home.
 
We were home for 10 minutes. And we received a call from what ended up being her surgeon from Illinois Medical Clinic. And we were asked to come back into an after-hours appointment, which those are never good.
 
And so, we walk in the door. We sit down. There's not even a secretary.
 
The lights in the building are off. We were walking down this hallway to this last, you know, exam room. And Jada is just sitting there on the table.
 
Jessica is about ready to pop pregnancy-wise. And the doctor walks in and says, so, I assume you know why you're here. And I said, actually, we haven't been able to get a straight answer.
 
And we have no idea what's happening. And she goes, are you kidding me? She's like, I have to be the one to tell you this, that your daughter has kidney cancer.
 
And I think the thing that caught me was Jessica sitting on a chair kind of at the foot of the exam table. And instinctively, I mean, it was like it wasn't even – it was no coaching. There was no – Jada just kind of crumbled and her body just kind of fell onto Jess.
 
And Jess's mom has walked through cancer twice. And so, Jessica has lived this journey as well, just the difficulty of it. And so, for her, she's just like I know what this required of me when my mom had it.
 
And I had to take care of her when I was in junior high and then again when I was in college. And now I'm pregnant and now my daughter has cancer. It was unreal.
 
And then I wrote about it in the book, but the walk from the front door to the van where Jada's face was buried in my neck. And the warmth of her tears and just her body just kind of melted into mine as we're walking back to the van. And it's like I never want to forget that because the usefulness of it, how helpful it is for me to recall some things, to live in that place of like this is what you redeem, this is what you restore.
 
But it was hard as heck. And so, that would be what I remember from the day of diagnosis.
 
Laura Dugger: (37:13 - 37:26) It is so hard to imagine what that would look like to get that news. And I'm just wondering for you and Jess, what did your faith look like and what were your conversations like with the Lord at that point?
 
Doug Rumbold: (37:29 - 39:10) You know, I – because of the loss of my brother earlier, I don't – I mean that's a great question. And I don't mean this how it might sound or come across, but my faith was never – I don't think that my faith was an issue in terms of am I still going to cling to Jesus. It was just more of a – it was just – it was so hard.
 
I really wish I had words for it. I talk about this in another podcast that I did. I remember just feeling so overwhelmed and more of a feeling like we were treading water in the middle of an ocean.
 
And someone – you're like begging for a life raft and they hand you a cinder block. And you're like, not helpful. So, my faith, our conversations with the Lord, they were hard, and we were certainly super sad.
 
My wife would probably talk about how she was broken and quiet and learning afresh what it means to surrender. But she is methodical and consistent in her pursuit of the Lord and extremely faithful. And so, hers was sitting in solitude and just waiting and cry and lament and work through it all and then come out the other side stronger.
 
I process things a little bit more verbally. But I think our faith was strong. We were just shattered for the pain that she was experiencing for sure.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:11 - 39:35) That's a great way of putting it. And just like He promises, I have spoken – Mark and I have talked with you and Jess before. And you've shared how God continued to be an ever-present help in these times of trouble.
 
But will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where he responded to you with alliteration?
 
Doug Rumbold: (39:35 - 45:50) Yeah, the one that I think of is – and I write about it a little bit in my book. But I just remember thinking kind of two questions that I would ask. One was right after Pierce was born and we obviously weren't having any sleep.
 
So, if you look at the timeline, Jada was diagnosed on the 30th of December. The 2nd of January was Jessica and my anniversary. The 3rd was Jada's surgery.
 
The 10th was when her pathology came back. And the diagnosis went from 95, 98% cure rate, survival rate just fine to like 40 to 60% survival rate. And a different stage of cancer and the size of the tumor was much larger than they originally anticipated.
 
And so, we came home that night from the pathology report and wept and wept and wept. And then Jessica started labor that night. And it was a blizzard.
 
Our midwife didn't make the birth. And then Pierce is born on the morning of the 11th, which is the same morning that Jada and I were supposed to go back in now to have more MRIs, more blood work to determine had the cancer metastasized throughout her whole body instead of just in that one tumor. And it was assumed that it had and so, that's why they were checking everything.
 
And so, it was an urgent, you need to get there for this. I just kind of felt like the one question, one of two questions I was asking, but one of them was with conversation with the Lord was when will you relent? Won't you just relent?
 
So, I was never like struggling in my faith to the degree that I was going to toss it, but I was angry with God. I was like, come on, like, how does this work? Can you give, throw me a bone, basically.
 
So, that was one conversation. But the conversation that's most poignant is after he started to frame those things up a little bit and give more of a trellis to build on. I remember treatment had begun, which timeline, if you're looking at it, the 11th is when Pierce is born.
 
The 13th is when Jada started treatment. So, from like the 13th to the 18th, she had radiation. And then after that, for the rest of the year, eight months, whatever, she had chemo.
 
I remember one morning I never slept at the hospital. It was just not comfortable. It was always beeping, stuff like that.
 
So, I would often go down to the playroom. There's an activity room at the end of the hall on the sixth floor there at OSF. And I'd be down there with a lackluster cup of coffee and my Bible and journal.
 
And I'd watch the sunrise over the city of Peoria. And it would just be kind of like; I really couldn't hardly read. It would be more of me just like, because no one was awake.
 
That was the only time when it was semi quiet. And I would just have these out loud conversations with the Lord. Like, what's happening?
 
And the conversation, the question that I kept asking was, Lord, how in the world are we going to do this? How in the world are we going to make it through? That's really when he began to kind of press back in.
 
And I'm not, I don't know how to explain this, but more of a, I had a very tangible sense that as I'm sitting there on the sixth floor, that he was almost in the chair next to me. And he's just, he's like, okay, tell me more about your struggle. What's it like?
 
Help me to understand the pain of your heart. And so, I'm, I'm unloading these things to Him. And all of a sudden I noticed the time and it's like, oh, Jada is going to be waking up soon.
 
I need to get back there before they do rounds, you know, and the whole dance starts again. And so, I kind of like, oh, I want to return. It's like when you wake up from a dream and you're like, oh no, I want to finish the dream.
 
And you try to go back to sleep quickly. That's a little bit of how that conversation was working out. And I remember going back to the room and jotting a few more things down in my journal.
 
And then after that it goes, okay. The day was now full of motion. And I had forgotten about the conversation quite honestly.
 
And until that evening, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, I told Jada, I'm like, “Honey, I'm going to run home real quick and shower, get a change of clothes and maybe get some real food. And then I'll be back. Okay.”
 
Don't worry. And so, I hopped in my car, I turned on my headlights, and I got out of the parking garage, and I got on 74. And right as I was getting on the bridge to cross over the Illinois to go back toward Tremont, it was, I mean, I don't know how people feel about this.
 
So, sorry if I start a theological controversy on your podcast, but, um, I, as I'm sitting there as audible as you and I talking back and forth, there's this sense of my spirit of like, you asked how you're going to get through Christ community and confession. But there was really beyond that, there was really no discussion. You know, it was more just like those three words got tossed out.
 
And so, I remember driving down the highway and almost like, uh, you're in a zone where it's like, you see the headlights, you know, going like right past you and, and nothing is distracting to me. And I remember thinking some of those things made sense to me, like, you know, yes, Christ suffered. Yes.
 
I need community around me, things like that. But confession was the one that I struggled with the most. Like what do you mean by that?
 
You know, because I had a courtroom idea of confession, like, okay, I got caught doing something I shouldn't have. I need to confess. What I did was wrong.
 
And there definitely is that element. But I came to learn later that confession is the Hebrew word. One of the Hebrew words for it actually means praise.
 
And so, there's this, there's this idea of caught up, being caught up in understanding the presence of God and you're confessing. It's the word that actually, more accurately, fits is declaration. And so, I'm like, oh, wow.
 
Okay. So, what you're saying then is these scriptures that I've been studying for years now, I I'm actually, it's about declaring them in praise over my life, over my circumstances, over my daughter as a way of help to get us through. Okay.
 
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Happy reading. And I just want to go back to something that you said, because you use the word relent. God, how long until you relent?
 
And yet he flipped that word and taught you that he will relentlessly continue to pursue you with his presence.
 
Doug Rumbold: (47:10 - 49:26) I'm glad that you draw that out because I think the relentless pursuit is in that question of when will you relent? It was one of our darker moments, even in marriage where my wife and I were both stretched to the max, totally thin and struggling. And it was an argument, you know, where I'm lying on the ground after my wife and I had just kind of like, I need you to take care of this.
 
And she's asking me to take care of something I'm not wanting to, and I'm holding my ground and I'm tired. She's tired. And aren't your best moments between midnight and 7am anyway?
 
And so, I remember laying on the ground. That moment was laying on the ground at the foot of my son's crib in our bedroom. And he was not sleeping.
 
He's a newborn. Newborns don't sleep easily. And I remember pounding the ground and actually saying, you know, when, when will you relent God?
 
Like when will you let up? And to see the connection between my question was the assumption that God had left the building that God had kind of punched the clock. Okay.
 
I'll be back by five. You know, like when instead, the way that He wants to communicate His presence to me in my suffering shows that He's relentlessly digging through every bit of self-reliance that I've set up to try to manufacture outcomes. And so, there, there's a way that His relentless presence is like, like waves on a shore one after the other, the rhythmic nature of it, the dependable nature of it, you can't stop it.
 
Nature of it is the way that He can and will use any circumstance trial in your life to communicate His presence to you. So, yeah, that's right. Its relenting is a releasing and letting go, but relentless pursuit is also this like dogged pursuit of us.
 
it's been said before that, that God or Christ is the hound of heaven, you know, like a blood hound with your scent who won't give up until He finds you. And so, similar to our experience for sure.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:27 - 50:00) Well, and you go into these stories and then also offer hope and offer so much scripture where you have poured over to help us make sense of suffering. And even see things where it's a very upside-down economy as God often has, where there's blessing in the affliction, but yet to close the loop on this story. Can you give us a picture of where your family is at today? Even the ages of your children and Jada's status?
 
Doug Rumbold: (50:01 - 52:27) Yeah, for sure. So, it's been a long journey for sure. Jada now is 18 and we are in preparation for her.
 
She is going to be going to Arizona Christian University in the fall. So, a nice short 24-hour drive away. And so, again, we're learning afresh what it looks like to lay down our children, but we're super excited about it.
 
We are super excited about the new friends she'll make. My wife and I have always said Jada is a spread your wings and fly sort of girl and cancer only proved that. So, we're super excited about that for her.
 
Our son, Oliver, who was two at the time, is now 14 where he's a freshman. He turns 15 this summer and I'm sure we'll be driving soon after. No concerns there.
 
And then my son, Pierce, is in sixth grade. And yeah, they all have their own interest’s kind of across the board. Jada loves music and singing and playing piano. 
 
Oliver is relationally. He's just this guy who enjoys mature conversation. So, like when we get together with our life group, you'll find him talking to the adult men just because he fits there. He's more of an old soul.
 
Pierce is our creative kid. He's always doing trick shots. And I mean, it's pretty crazy the stuff that he does. He's kind of fun like that and loves fishing and things of this nature. 
 
So, yeah, all of my kids are very interesting and different like that. My wife is doing homeschooling for the boys, and she continues to be somebody who is a silent influencer in the lives of many, usually and primarily through prayer.
 
But I am amazed at how often the Lord uses her in the lives of other people to bring about change and transformation. She's just an excellent gifted counselor of people with the word of God and prayer. So, that's kind of where our family's at.
 
I've been at the time that Jada was ill, I was the youth pastor at Northfield and I'm still at Northfield though. I'm in a different role. I'm pastor of counseling and discipleship here at Northfield.
 
So, I have never left this community. So, I'm trying to think if there's anything else update wise. I don't think so.
 
I think it's pretty much it.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:27 - 52:30) And so, Jada is in remission.
 
Doug Rumbold: (52:30 - 55:11) Yes. She did have one other occurrence where she started having really acute headaches in 2013. Then, those acute headaches turned into taking her back for a checkup and the checkup revealed a lesion on her frontal lobe. So, a brain tumor.
 
We had to wait eight weeks to scan again. Those eight weeks were the hardest and worst that I think we've faced even from the first cancer. It was like, “Oh my goodness, we're going to have to go through this again.”
 
And then we had this season of waiting, you know, the eight weeks and then she was going back in for another scan to determine scope and growth. Also, you know, what type of craniotomy or brain surgery they were going to perform, to address it or whether it was going to be treated medically. Or how was that going to happen? And so, that all took place. Then, they did the scan, and we had to wait.
 
Normally we would have these scans, and it would be like a four-to-eight-hour turnaround. And you know that same day or even the next day we get a call from the St. Jude office, and they would say all clear. This one went one day, that was two days.
 
And I called and they said, “Oh, well, you know, the doctor will call you.” And I'm like, “Come on Beth.” You know, she was the head nurse that I've had relationship with for a while.
 
And she's like, “No, you know, the doctor will tell you.” And I'm like, “That's never good.” And come to find out, we had to wait until the end of that week.
 
So, it was not one day, not two days, not three days, not four days, but five. So, it went from Monday to Friday. And on Friday, the doctor called me after hours.
 
And I thought for sure it was, you know, here we go treatment time. And, um, she called back and said, the reason it's taken so long is because I had to have conference calls with, uh, Memphis, DC, LA, all these different cancer centers and looking at the imaging together. But when, when we laid the last image that shows the lesion over the newest one, the newest one shows nothing like it's completely gone.
 
And she goes, and it's definitely here. It's definitely something that requires intervention. And now it doesn't.
 
And so, she goes, I just wanted to confirm the anomaly. I'm like, that's not an anomaly. That's a healing.
 
And so, uh, Jada has been in remission, ever since. So, she's been, she's been doing good. In fact, her last cancer follow-up appointment was like three weeks ago and got the all clear.
 
So, praise God.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:11 - 55:44) Praise God. What an awesome, miraculous healing. I'm so thankful you shared that and really Doug with your unique career that you're in and the journey that you and Jess have been through and your love of scripture, you're putting all of this together and it really is such a gift, this book that you've written.
 
So, can you tell us just a little bit more of who this book is for and what people could expect to find when they read it?
 
Doug Rumbold: (55:45 - 57:54) Yeah. So, the book is for anyone because, and you would know this as well, but you're either heading into a trial, you're in the middle of a trial or you're on the backside of a trial. And there's never a moment in which you can say, “Oh, okay, well now I've learned and now I've arrived and now we're good.”
 
I do think that the preparation of our heart for trial is critical because it's going to come like we are going to face suffering of some form at some point. And so, it's good to know how to approach it. It's for anybody who wants to learn and grow and be encouraged.
 
But specifically, one of the things that I struggled with during our trial, and it's ongoing, you know, because of some of the stuff that we mentioned before ongoing health issues in our family and stuff like that. But I, what I found was people would be like, “Oh, here's a book.” It's only 320 pages on suffering.
 
I'm like, really? Thanks for that. I've got no capacity to do that.
 
So, I purposely wanted to write a book that you could personally sit and read like in an afternoon. It's so, it's short. It's like, you know, a hundred pages and it's digestible.
 
So, you could jump from one chapter to the eighth chapter if you wanted, and you would, you would still hopefully gain something. So, I wanted to make it uniquely accessible and heart focused. So, you'll find kind of like throughout the chapters, I have these like, so, truth to life.
 
And what I'm basically doing is trying to say, “Okay, we talked about something at a 30,000-foot view. What does it look like boots on the ground here?” I don't usually just spell it out for you.
 
I usually ask questions that are going to force you to address heart issues because scripture is pretty clear that all of our conduct flows from a heart that's filled with good or bad. So, people can expect to be challenged. They can expect to not have something that's too long and too hard to read, but they can also expect to find it kind of built around story a little bit.
 
That's one of the reasons why I use those different stories from scripture. I think we relate well and explain things well in a story.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:14) Definitely agree. We learn so much from Jesus's stories. Those stick with us and yours do too.
 
So, thank you for sharing all of those today. And if anyone desires more help and healing after today's conversation, where would you direct them?
 
Doug Rumbold: (58:15 - 59:59) The first thing that I would do is just encourage prayer. The idea of silence and solitude is where you can be begun to become aware of the healing that you may need and being able to just journal it down and have it right in front of you. That is probably one of the first steps.
 
Second thing I would say is to lean into community. COVID has kind of wrecked things in some ways where some people have gotten used to this idea of either online attendance or whatever. Nothing, nothing, nothing replaces the body of Christ in the tangible way.
 
And so, the idea of being with and around other like-minded believers is critical. But in terms of myself, the book that I wrote, it's available on Walmart, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can just search Presence Over Pain in a search engine and find it pretty easily.
 
I am currently in the works of working through like an audio version of it because some people prefer that. So, that will be forthcoming. You can find me on Facebook or Instagram.
 
I provide biblical counseling in person or virtually so, people can contact me through those platforms if they want to have a conversation. And the cool thing is those things happen. There's a number of different connections that God has made where people have either read the book or they know someone who read the book and my name was recommended and here I am a couple of months later having a conversation with someone who found me online.
 
And I love technology for that purpose. How can we come together and build around something in Christ? It's pretty awesome.
 
Laura Dugger: (59:59 - 1:00:31) That is awesome. And we will certainly add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. In addition to the link to your own podcast where you dig a little bit deeper into the book.
 
And the name of that is also Presence Over Pain podcast. And Doug, you know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Doug Rumbold: (1:00:32 - 1:04:48) I love the question because practical is helpful. So, I think probably just some brief stories and then a couple of suggestions. So, I remember when I was younger, all seven of us children kind of growing up in the same house.
 
My dad had such a passion for us to know the word of God that he wanted us to all like sit down at the same time. And he was going to read a chapter of Proverbs. Well, can you imagine seven kids on a Tuesday morning trying to get ready for school?
 
And then your father saying, “Okay, everybody sit down.” Like nobody's going to be able to do that. And so, after a few failed attempts, what my dad did was he would, he would have a section that he was going to read, and he would start with the oldest child, and he would follow them around literally like follow them.
 
And he would just, he would read the word of God to them and then he would move to the next one and to the next one and to the next one and the next one. And I have memories of like even walking out the door, going to get on the bus and my dad following me right up to the door, reading the last bit of Proverbs to us. And so, practically speaking, you really cannot underestimate the value of intentionally diving into God's word daily personally.
 
Like don't let somebody else do it for you. It's so, personal. It's so, needed.
 
And just when you feel like it's not going to matter, the fruit of it will come forth. So, that's, that's one. And then the other story that kind of points to a practical reality is my wife grew up through her parents splitting up when she was, I think, second or third grade.
 
And just the difficulty of that, like the life of a single mom as she and her sister watched her mom go through that. But Jessica tells a story often of like not understanding and now understanding, but like she would knock on her mom's door and she would hear her mom crying and she would, she'd open the door and her mom would be face down on the floor, just, just praying and weeping. And she's like, hold on, honey.
 
Mommy just needs to be with Jesus. And it communicated this idea. And my wife has carried this on in our own family and in her practice of just like prayer and particularly prayers of lament are huge.
 
And so, practically speaking, what's that look like? I mean, I have an exercise. I'm sure you are being a counselor by nature would, would appreciate this.
 
But one of the things that you can do to learn how to lament is to look at a good number of the Psalms are lament Psalms. Like they're sad Psalms. Like Lord, my life stinks.
 
The wheels have fallen off and you're nowhere to be found. So, being honest with God is critical, but a simple assignment would be to read a lament Psalm, like Psalm 13 or Psalm 88 or Psalm 77, Psalm 42, any of those. And then as you read that Psalm, just the simple assignment is to like write your own Psalm of lament and then read it back to the Lord. You know, Lord, I felt like you were absent when my daughter was diagnosed with cancer, but I am going to trust in your unfailing love.
 
Like you see those pictures all throughout the Psalm. So, that's a practical, simple way to engage God. I think the last thing that I would say in terms of practical is the idea of rest from a perspective, you know, biblically it's called Sabbath.
 
Do you have a 24-hour period of rest? Because what you do when you Sabbath is you say something to God and to everyone else. It doesn't depend on me.
 
When I choose to rest, I'm choosing not to be productive. I'm choosing not to perform. I'm choosing only to receive.
 
I'm choosing to rest. I'm choosing to fall back into his arms. Rhythmically reminding ourselves of that for me, the way that that works out is like, you know, I'm a pastor.
 
So, Sundays are a workday. So, once I get home after Sunday until like noon, the following day is the time when it's like, okay, this is where I'm not going to be on my screen. I'm going to take a walk with the family.
 
We're going to have dinner together. Things that are filling and receiving are critically helpful. And I would say savvy.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:04:49 - 1:05:08) That's so good. And Doug, Mark and I are just so grateful to know you and Jess. We learn from both of you, and we've learned from your stories. They've been so impactful today.
 
So, thank you for writing this resource and thank you for being my guest today.
 
Doug Rumbold: (1:05:09 - 1:05:11) It was a total pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:05:12 - 1:08:54) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
 
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
 
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
 
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
 
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
 
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
 
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

270_Female_Sex_Hormones_and_Perimenopause_with_Emily_Macleod_Wolfe

Mark 2:27 NIV "Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."
 
*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Emily MacLeod-Wolfe is a Nurse Practitioner wellness professional with a passion for helping individuals achieve their health goals in a holistic and practical way.
 
With 5 years of invaluable experience in the field, Emily has developed a deep understanding of the importance of a balanced lifestyle for a vibrant life.
 
Emily firmly believes in treating the whole person, not just the symptoms, and takes a comprehensive approach to healthcare. She learned these from her own personal experience of dealing with Hashitmotos thyroiditis and eczema and found the root causes to treat them naturally. She is passionate to help others with the personal knowledge and health freedom she has received.
 
By combining her medical expertise with a focus on nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness, she empowers her clients to take control of their health and make sustainable lifestyle changes.
 
With a warm and empathetic demeanor, Emily creates a safe and supportive environment where clients feel heard and understood. She works closely with each individual to develop personalized wellness plans that are tailored to their unique needs and circumstances. Whether you’re looking to improve your physical fitness, manage stress, or simply lead a healthier life, Emily is dedicated to guiding, encouraging & supporting you on your wellness journey.
 
Emily's Website
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
Will you give us an intro lesson for hormones 101?
Is it normal to have really painful and heavy menstrual cycles or is that an indicator that something is not right?
What are the best practices you recommend for women to support healthy hormones and healthy adrenals in their body all month long?
 
Thank you to our sponsor: Leman Property Management
 
Episode Mentioned Today:
256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
 
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast:
81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith
167. Pursuing Health in Four Key Areas with Debra Fileta
205. Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)
Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan
Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge
Special Patreon Re-release: Out of the Box Stress Relievers to Apply Today with Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
 
Connect with us through The Savvy Sauce Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:12)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:29) 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
 
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook. 
 
Emily McLeod-Wolfe is my returning guest for today. Last time we talked about everything related to gut health, and I'll make sure to link that episode in the show notes for today's episode. I would highly recommend that you begin there, because there's a lot of overlap with solutions, as then we transition today into our topic about female hormones, the menstruation cycle, and how to make everything better, and even end up grateful to God for our female cycle.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:30 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me again, Laura. I'm so excited about this section.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:35 - 1:40) Yes, can you just give us a brief reminder of the work that you get to do before we dive in?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:41 - 2:08) Yes. I am a holistic nurse practitioner. I was trained traditionally in traditional medicine at Vanderbilt, and then I went on to do ... Well, from my own personal health journey, I knew I wanted to do more holistic medicine, so I went on and did functional medicine, natural medicine training, so, now I have a practice called Pure Integrative Health, which is to blend the best of both worlds, and to basically to root cause medicine.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:19) Well, and we covered all things gut health last time, but I've been so excited to interview you about hormones, so as best as you can, could you just give us Hormones 101?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (2:21 - 3:02)  Yeah, yeah. And first of all, if you didn't hear the last episode, I would recommend go back to listen to the previous one, because the gut health is the precursor that builds to the hormones, and I don't recommend even trying to address the hormones unless you've got some of the gut healing going, because they are so interconnected, even in the way in which we don't want to be recycling hormones, so constipation is causing an excess hormone recycling that should not be happening. So, again, healthy gut health is going to help the hormones, but yes. So, for women, or for men, or what hormones would you like me to describe?
 
Laura Dugger: (3:02 - 3:11) I think we're just going to focus on women's hormones today, because I want to get more into our cycle as well. 
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (3:11 - 10:59) Oh, great question. Yeah. Okay. So, for women, we have the sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, not nearly as high levels of testosterone as men, they can be highly driven off of it. If the testosterone is too high in women, then we look at things like PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, excess androgen, so it could be like abnormal hair growth, extra oily skin, acne, those are some signs of like maybe high testosterone, but also could be from high cortisol, which is the stress hormone that's made in the adrenal glands that sits on top of the kidneys and produces stress hormone.
 
Now we'll explain how the adrenals and the stress hormone cortisol affect some of the sex hormones, but those ones, and then there's one called DHEA, and that is the precursor hormone to testosterone. So, we've got estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, DHEA, pregnenolone is like the master hormone in which all the hormones can be made out of, and the cholesterol actually funnels into pregnenolone. So, our cholesterol is necessary, we do need good cholesterol to help all the hormones, so, yes, that's why good healthy fats and things like that are really helpful, like olive oil and avocado and baking, broiling and grilling things and all of that, the cholesterol, pregnenolone master hormone, we got DHEA, which is the precursor to testosterone.
 
And then testosterone can be the hormone that converts into estrogen, so, they're all connected, they're all very connected, so excess estrogen could be from too high testosterone. Anyhow, they're all over the place sometimes for women, and they do fluctuate just even within 28 days, so I'll kind of explain that, and then we can kind of go from there. So, we talked about cortisol, there's a lot of other hormones, but I was just telling you about the sex hormones, so that's necessary to understand a cycle of a woman.
 
So, when we start cycling, and then we have a couple different phases, we have the follicular phase, which is the first, day one is the day you start bleeding, and then day 14 is typically the day that we ovulate. So, day one, we have, estrogen starts to increase, we've kind of bottomed out, usually on our cycle, most women feel a little bit lower energy, I mean, we're bleeding and menstruating, and so some women lose a lot of iron, and ferritin levels can go down a lot during that, so we want to eat very iron-rich, lots of leafy greens, vegetables, good healthy fats to support. I kind of describe each week of our cycle, almost like a season, it's like winter is the first seven days of the bleeding, and then we've got spring, but then we start to feel really good, and everything is good, and then we've got summer, and we're doing great, and then we've got fall, and so we can kind of eat accordingly to, almost seasonally for the hormones, too.
 
So, we've got the first seven days, lower energy, because estrogen and progesterone are pretty bottomed out, but they start to gradually increase. Now estrogen really starts to increase, and then right around day 14, it comes down, and then progesterone takes over, and so right there is the ovulation, and that's where the ovaries will release an egg, and has the opportunity to be fertilized or not in the middle of the month, and it all very much interconnects with our moods and how we're feeling, and people have heard of PMS, premenstrual syndrome, you felt the hormonal changes and all of that, but there's definitely ways that we can kind of mitigate the extreme highs and lows, like some people deal with depression-like feelings and really big mood swings, we can work on leveling those things more so that they're not so drastic through certain things I'll describe, but anyhow, we've got follicular phase, estrogen, we've got the luteal phase, we've got ovulation, then we've got the luteal phase is where progesterone is really increasing and decreasing, and that's days 14 to 28 of the cycle. So, we've got first phase and second phase. And two, we can break it down even more to four weeks. 
 
We've got like the first week, lower energy, but that's like, you can even connect it to emotions and how, like, maximizing efficiency for work based off of your cycle. Because even, you're not supposed to make a really big life decision during the menstruating week, because that's just low energy and all that. But it's a good time to dream, brainstorm, hopefully you're taking time to rest, take care of your body, have some salt baths, rich in magnesium, eating those good foods, giving nutrients, if your body needs, you get your iron levels checked and your ferritin levels. Your practitioner might give you an iron supplement that you're kind of taking in conjunction, depending on that. And so, we're resting and resetting and having time to journal, dream, and brainstorm things for the, you know, hopefully the next and then the next week, the estrogen is coming up a lot, and starting to feel back to normal self, usually really good and feeling that surge, the mood starts to get better, it's a great time to start to do like some good heavy weightlifting and exercise can even be based around cycle two. For menstruation, you're probably going to want to do a little bit more lower impact and walking and stretching, Pilates, things like that. And then a bar and all that and then weightlifting that second week is great.
 
And then also, that's around ovulation is that's where we feel more loving and affectionate and different things and the way that God designed our body literally to want to be with a man around that time. And that's procreation time. And then right around the after ovulation, that third week, and fourth week can start to get challenging because that's where well, sometimes that third week is a good, sweet spot.
 
But the fourth week, the week before the period. Yeah, like that day is 19 to 21. And then like after that, that's where some mood swings can start to happen.
 
And the estrogens come down a lot progesterone depending on where the bodies at. Most women are deficient in progesterone overall. So, if it's already decreasing, it was a peak in the third week, and then it's decreasing, going towards menstruating again, then it's a recipe for not sleeping great mood swings, irritability, bloating, breast tenderness, that can be estrogen imbalances, excess estrogen, low progesterone like symptoms.
 
And then yeah, that was a lot.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:59 - 11:20) That's so helpful. I want right before we move on, because I want to hear how to mitigate some of those symptoms. But first, you mentioned eating seasonally, even each week. So, is that what you're saying that we eat more of those winter foods, that day one to seven? And could you give an example for each phase?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (11:21 - 14:19) One example, Sweet potato, you know, like the foods that you would find more in the winter. So, you're kind of doing like sweet potatoes.
 
And like I said, the fatty food, like a healthy fat Mediterranean, definitely right around the cycle. Body craves, if you find yourself craving chocolate, it's probably because your body's deficient in magnesium. Most of us are.
 
So, some women will use it as an excuse to have chocolate, guilty as charged. But actually, it's magnesium deficiency, but chocolate has magnesium in it. So, if you get a rich, like dark chocolate, if you're not sensitive to chocolate, and you can do one that's a really dark and, and doesn't have a ton of sugar, then that could be a good source.
 
But just foods rich in magnesium, dark leafy greens, avocados, nuts, and really checking levels and magnesium, Epsom salt baths, things like that, that's going to be great. You're going to want to do that also kind of the week before the period to in the fall like food. So, you know, like the, the squashes, and you kind of like the baked vegetables and, and protein and, and then like in the spring, like the week after, then maybe you're doing more like, you know, berries and, and, you know, things that you would have in this in the springtime and summer, different types of meat that you would like lean chicken and turkey. Then harvest like food for that week before the period to give you good. There's something called seed cycling. So, the pumpkin seeds and well, sesame and sunflower are for days 14 to 28 of the cycle.
 
So, the second half that gives the body the micronutrients needed to help support progesterone and then pumpkin and wow, I'm really blanking probably because I need to eat lunch. But we can come back well it's going to come back to me the pumpkin and the is it chia? No, flax.
 
Flax. Okay, flax seed. Pumpkin and flax for days one, the day we start bleeding to ovulation day 14, and then sesame and sunflower days 14 to 28.
 
So, like adding those into smoothies, handful of nuts, nut butter, sunflower seed butter, you know, those kinds of things. Those that can also kind of support the cycle naturally and give the body the nutrients that are needed to support the body like that.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:37) Okay. I have heard about seed cycling before. It kind of ties into the other question I had. I wondered if it's normal to have really painful and heavy menstrual cycles? Or is that an indicator that something's not right and maybe we need to bring in something like seed cycling?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (14:39 - 18:15) Yes, painful, heavy menstruation. That's not normal. I personally have dealt with them.
 
So, I understand they're awful and they can leave some women, you know, nauseous, throwing up, vomiting, breast tenderness. Now, that signs of excess estrogen that likely needs to be detoxed. And I would recommend going to a holistic practitioner and asking them to do a saliva hormone testing panel.
 
Actually, we have no, I don't have it with me right now. But it's basically these vials of saliva that you spit right when you wake up, lunchtime, dinnertime, bedtime, and it'll check sex hormones between days 19 to 21 of the cycle. We're checking peak progesterone time so we can look at the most accurate depiction if you're cycling.
 
It's still possible to do it if you're postmenopausal and want to do the test, we could do it at any time. But it's a saliva hormone test is the most accurate way to measure hormones and see exactly what's going on. We can check blood work, but it's just like a little shot in the dark. But the saliva is the more accurate picture of what's going on.
 
So, I would recommend if you're having really heavy menstrual cycle, yes, you can try the seed cycling to start. That's harmless to try. But there might be more things going on that really need to be seen by a practitioner to help either support what hormone is low or detox another hormone that is excess.
 
Now, we are overall in our society getting a lot of excess estrogen. And that can be through plastics, we get a lot like trying to switch even just a bottle as I'm drinking through. We don't want to try and drink as much plastic out of plastic, we want to do like glass water bottles.
 
And like stainless steel water bottles better. Unless you're in a crazy rush and you forgot to bring one is better drink some water than no water. We've got to stay hydrated to have healthy bowel movements to have energy to our cells, all of that good water filter that filters out fluoride, chlorine, those things will affect the thyroid very much so. Thyroid hormones affect sex hormones and etc.
 
So, we want to get a good filter for the water so that we don't have to deal with the after effects of thyroid imbalances or if you're already dealing with thyroid imbalances. I understand because I've dealt with that myself. And so, we want to remove as many stressors because the thyroid needs iodine just to function.
 
And if we're getting fluoride and chlorine, those particular elements compete for iodine in the body. So, we got to get those out as best as we can get rid of excess estrogen. Through plastics, chemicals and detergents, like all of the chemicals that are exposed in detergents and cleaning products. As much as we can clean those up as well, it's going to be very, very helpful for thyroid, very helpful for sex hormones.
 
Laura Dugger: (18:16 - 18:26) Oh, that's interesting. So, those I don't even think of that are like store brand names for detergents that those could be endocrine disruptors, you're saying?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (18:26 - 18:45) That's great. Yes. So, endocrine disruptors are things that are going to cause imbalances to the thyroid, the sex hormones, or any of their other hormones in the body. Yes. So, we definitely want to try and stay away from those things.
 
Laura Dugger: (18:46 - 21:10) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 
 
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Okay, so I'm even thinking, so females my age or friends or older or younger women listening, even we have four daughters and so as they grow and mature, all of this is helpful. I'm assuming to start at a young age with getting rid of some of those toxins or not microwaving food on plastic plates, but then also you said detox. Is that through hydration or did you mean something else with detoxification?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (21:11 - 22:47) I can't get into this unless I saw somebody as a patient because I can't give across the board recommendation for this, but I will say because there are certain supplements and things that might be needed. Say there's excess estrogen in the body, there might be supplements that that person needs to help bring down those excess estrogen levels aside from food. But one thing that I do know that you can eat that helps overall is the more that you love and detoxify the liver. It's what has to process all the hormones.
 
One thing is broccoli sprouts, not broccoli, broccoli sprouts. So, you know, micro green sprouts, those ones, the broccoli sprouts are incredible at helping getting rid of the bad kinds of estrogen, detox those out of the body. So, that's really good.
 
Cruciferous vegetables, cooking your cruciferous vegetables though, because if you eat them raw, it can affect the thyroid negatively. So, it's best to, it could cause goiters and so we don't want that. It can be goitrogenic essentially.
 
So, we don't want that, but you could bake. I mean, you could cook cruciferous vegetables, broccoli, brussels sprouts, kale, etc., those cruciferous vegetables, spinach, all that. And those are great also for that. So, that can help.
 
The best one is the broccoli sprouts. Yes. And then getting saliva hormone testing done and seeing exactly where your body is at.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 22:53) Okay. Cause I'm wondering then could that even be a mineral deficiency when you're talking about supplements?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (22:55 - 27:11) Yeah, there definitely can be mineral deficiencies. It just, like I said, I've seen a lot of different variations, right? Excess estrogen, low progesterone, low menopausal, low everything.
 
Once the hormones bottom out, then they're kind of low across the board and the body might need bioidentical hormones to have extra support. It's cardioprotective, protective against cancers, protective for the bones, different things like that. Bioidentical is different than synthetic.
 
Synthetic hormones is like birth control, but synthetic hormones can, go see the last episode when we talk about leaky gut intestinal permeability, but the birth control can actually cause intestinal permeability too. So, that's a problem. Leaky gut can be from birth control, the synthetic birth control, and then the body's not even able to ovulate.
 
It's not able to release. There's just like the, the way that God designed it is we're actually, if you allow it to look at it as like a cleansing and a purging every month, that spiritually the Lord, if we allow the Lord, we don't have to dread it. It's so common in society to dread a period. Or, oh my gosh, again, here we go.
 
But how beautiful it's a celebration of the ability to give life. It's an opportunity to take some time to rest. It's a beautiful time to take some time to sit back and reflect, especially that week before the period.
 
Also try and not make big decisions the week before because the progesterone's bottomed out causing mood swings and then making decisions is going to be a lot more stressful and can lighten load and work a little bit that week before, a few days prior to your period. That would be very helpful. Stress levels really impact the cycle and also just trying to prepare the body for going through perimenopause and then menopause.
 
Wherever you're at in your health journey, life journey, it's, it's just so good to educate younger women to be really taking care of their adrenals, which is this, you know, the organ that produces stress hormone because high cortisol, which is the stress hormone produced by the adrenal glands, zaps progesterone and most women, that's probably why I see a lot of progesterone dipping so quickly. You need progesterone to have a healthy pregnancy. So, we're seeing a lot more miscarriages and infertility problems could be from low progesterone.
 
And, um, and then that will eventually bottom out with menopause because the ovaries are not producing it anymore. And the only place that we have progesterone left in reserves is in the adrenal glands. And so, if the stress has been going on for so long, then even the reserves of the backups of the backups are gone, the progesterone, which is why I see a lot of women going through a more extreme version of menopause than with the night sweats and the hot flashes and all those things that maybe didn't even have to happen.
 
Because, uh, if we take care of it on, on the earlier end of managing stress levels, going to bed at good times, getting full amount of sleep, women need eight to 10 hours of sleep. We will, I will just go ahead and say that because our hormones are very independent, dependent on our adrenal function. Men, they don't really have to rely on their adrenals as much as their other, other sex hormones and locations.
 
Um, so they don't have to deal with it as much as the women. So, we're constantly tied to a function of our adrenals really affects our sex hormones like crazy. And we're not getting the right amount of sleep.
 
Then we're going to have high stress levels, high cortisol, and then the high cortisol is where it is at the sex hormones. So, we need those reserves to be replenished and the, and the cortisol levels drop and melatonin kicks in and we're going to sleep so much better and sleep so much deeper.
 
Laura Dugger: (27:12 - 27:36) Wow. This is fascinating. And I love how you're even celebrating the cycle and how God created it because I'm forgetting one of them, but I heard that menstrual blood was tested, and they saw that it was detoxifying plastics and pesticides. And there was one other thing that the body was using to eliminate. And so that's a reminder just to be grateful for that too.
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (27:36 - 29:08) And, uh, the birth control pill, it's a temporary fix. There are alternative forms of birth control that do not have the synthetic hormones that are good, good options, you know, and the synthetic hormones though, I've firsthand seen it with patients negatively impact the thyroid. And a lot of them have had to end up on thyroid medication just simply due to years and years of birth control and it impacting the thyroid and the cellular health as well as the lining of the gut and a lot of other side effects that I'm not a weight gain, different things.
 
And then the body not even being able to menstruate and fully excrete things. And, um, or even, you know, the, the cycle is an indicator, I think for women very much of like your monthly health, like how, how am I doing? Like if I'm having a really bad period, um, likely it was something that I had done this past month.
 
Okay. Did I eat right? Was I sleeping?
 
Was I incredibly stressed? Usually, you can trace it back to that. Now there's obviously other cases where, you know, PCOS and ruptured ovaries and different things like that, or ruptured cysts on the ovaries, sorry.
 
Um, then that can contribute to longer term diseases, but on a, it's almost like a litmus test to see how, how our bodies are doing.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:09 - 29:27) I like that perspective. And Emily, you're so great at giving proactive tips and I love easy wins. So, what are some of the best practices that you recommend for women to support healthy hormones and healthy adrenals in our bodies all month long?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (29:30 - 33:32) One is glucose management. So, protein, I cannot emphasize it enough protein sources, um, you know, good, healthy, as much as you can, grass fed organic meat. So, you're not getting the synthetic hormones from them because who knows what they're being fed and what they're being pumped with, but those sources, um, protein, other sources of protein, um, that's going to give you up to 15 hours of energy.
 
So, that is incredible. As far as eating for energy, I will say, if you can do that, that's, um, it's incredible. It's a game changer, eating for energy, protein, vegetables give us up to five to six hours of energy.
 
And then carbs, carbs give us, um, like if we had a piece of fruit, it only lasts in the system for 15 minutes. Or, um, potato chips, something like that, 15 minutes, that's not very long. And then the body says, ”I'm hungry again.” Then we ended up overeating because we just had the carbs and we're not full.
 
And so, that's why pairing the meals around the protein and then the fiber and then a healthy fat. Or like the protein, the fiber and a complex carb (sweet potato, brown rice, quinoa). Things like that is going to stabilize the blood sugar. So, there will not be cortisol stress levels spiked when we don't eat for too long, then it can cause the body to go into, um, stress overload. And there's four different stages of adrenal fatigue, cortisol, and that can affect the body very much.
 
So, spikes and crashes in glucose spike and crash the cortisol and then spikes and cortisol will steal your progesterone and then cause imbalances because progesterone keeps the estrogen in check. So, then you got estrogen and progesterone imbalances. Then there's DHEA, which is the other hormone that's made in the adrenals. So, sometimes DHEA, DHEA is incredible for building muscle, keeping muscle concentration, memory.
 
It's, wonderful at libido, all sorts of those things. Now, DHEA just decreases as we age. It's the precursor to testosterone as well, but it's also made in the adrenal glands.
 
And so, the more we can regulate cortisol and adrenal, sometimes high levels of stress, we've got to go back and think. Okay, um, we might not even feel stress, but if there's been physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual trauma, those are serious things that the body will hold on to. And unless you have gone to process, I recommend getting a Christian counselor and process those things because the body can literally still be holding onto it 20, 30, even 40 years, if it's not been let go and given to Jesus. And, um, so that is also a huge, we can't dismiss that or just try and fix the physical.
 
If there's been some stressors and the body has just been in survival mode and has to just keep going, then maybe it only knows how to live off of high cortisol stress reserves to just keep going. It doesn't, but if you have a hard time falling asleep, a hard time unwinding, feel like you're always on the go, those are like adrenal stages one and two high cortisol, but then that eventually will start to plummet. And then it's, um, you know, more difficult time getting out of bed and jumping straight out crash in the afternoon with energy crash after dinner crash before bed, um, or like wired and tired, like wired the brain's wired.
 
The body feels tired, but can't go to sleep. Then further stages waking up between 2:00 and 4:00 in the morning could be blood sugar, adrenal issues as well.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:32 - 33:41) Oh, could you speak a little bit more into that? Could be, the blood sugar related to the adrenal issues if you're waking up at that 2:00 to 4:00 AM time?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (33:42 - 34:47) Yes, it can be, the body signaling that the blood sugars drop too low. And then the cortisol has to, it can signal to the cortisol and the adrenals to spike to just keep the body going, survive. And then all of a sudden cortisol is spiking at night, which it should not, it should be done.
 
And melatonin should be happening at night and then cortisol in the daytime. So, if there's a cortisol spike because of a glucose crash, then, um, then we need to support it with, a spoonful of almond butter before bed, a handful of nuts, something, some protein before bed is going to, help someone, you know, in the middle of the night, stabilize the blood sugar. It can be a blood sugar issue with, cause blood sugar and cortisol are interconnected, but also should just check your cortisol levels, get a saliva test.
 
It's that saliva four point, um, test checks for sex hormones and cortisol, or we can.
 
Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:06) So. Okay. One more thing with that. So, then the blood sugar dropping that low, is that somebody who's maybe completing their closing, their eating window too early in the day, or they're not getting enough sugar throughout the day. Is that what you're saying with, why would it drop to that level and require cortisol?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (35:08 - 36:51) Great question. It would be, it could be the person's not eating enough throughout the day and the body just doesn't have the right. So, if the person was fasting quite frequently and doing that a lot now, everybody, everyone's body is different.
 
If you have adrenal imbalances, I do not recommend doing fasting because the body is already under stress and then fasting can put extra stress on the body. So then you're like, well, but then they said that if I fast and I should lose weight, and if you're fasting and you're gaining belly fat and you're gaining weight, it's a telltale sign cortisol because high cortisol level, puffy face, um, belly fat, stubborn, you can eat right exercise, try and do everything and it will not leave. That's usually survival mode. Body's trying to self-protect. Um, and so, yeah, so we don't want to be fasting very much if there's cortisol imbalances. Now, if there's not, and if you have your cortisol check, then there's great benefits to doing intermittent fasting and things.
 
And even biblically spiritually, there's incredible benefits to fasting. The Lord knows there's the cells literally repair themselves, regenerate and can eat up cancer cells. If we put our bodies into that ketosis state for good bit, but that is not something I would recommend doing high intensity exercise, or that's going to put a lot of cortisol stress on the body, high impact, um, or skipping a lot of meals.
 
So, that could be why the blood sugar is like dropping in the middle of the night.
 
Laura Dugger: (36:52 - 37:37) I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.
 
If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support. 
 
Is there anything else that we haven't gotten to discuss yet that you want to make sure we don't miss out on?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (37:38 - 39:15) So what, when do you know if you're in perimenopause versus menopause? And like I said, if you're a woman in your twenties and you're like, that does not apply to me. Actually, it does because it's just, you don't want to get to menopause and have no reserves.
 
Progesterone left because you depleted it from high levels of cortisol over the years. So, lifestyle changes, the protein, smaller, more frequent meals, the consistent bedtime, trying to go to bed before midnight, like 10:00 PM is like a sweet spot. 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM is when the liver detoxes, when cholesterol gets flushed, all these different things.
 
Melatonin window for the body to like fall asleep and stay asleep is between 10 PM and like, there's sometimes it's even earlier. It just depends on the person. And I actually use a little app called Rise. It does a good job kind of helping you track where you're melatonin and when you're awake window, when to cut off eating and when to kind of wear blue light blocking glasses to prevent your body to blue light helps.
 
We set this in the last one, but blue light actually tells your body to stay awake. So, you don't want to be on your screens too late at night, or your body's going to be sending the signals to stay awake when you're trying to wind down. So, using softer lighting, doing candle lit, doing, you know, just mimicking outside when the sun goes down, we should be going down, going down to bed and sleep when the sun wakes up. That's when we should be getting up as well.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:15 - 39:38) So, and getting that morning sunlight that we talked about. So important. And I forgot one quick follow-up question. When you talked about cortisol, too high of cortisol contributing to belly fat, that stubborn or puffy face, what would the solution be? Is it just manage your stress better or what's the takeaway there?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (39:38 - 42:39) The takeaway is yes, there's things you can do glucose wise, blood sugar and food that we've talked about. Lifestyle wise, of course. I mean, a ton of it is we're American society that trophies busyness.
 
And like the Bible literally talks about the importance of rest and the Sabbath and like even humans, we were made on day six, but the first day we were actually doing things, Adam and Eve was day seven, was the day of rest. My dad's a pastor and he actually just gave a sermon on rest and the Sabbath just last week at Harvest Sound. But it was just all about that we were created out of rest.
 
Like we're there to start doing things out of that place of rest. And we just don't take that time. I mean, it's like, okay, we got to go, go, go, got to take care of the kids, got to go do this, go do this.
 
How are you doing? Oh, I'm so busy. How about you?
 
Like, it's almost like a trophy thing to say that, but really like, how about prioritizing that time? And it's so easy, especially as women and mothers to just say, oh, but I just want to take care of everybody else. But like, if you were to have a date with your friend, you wouldn't go overbook it with something else.
 
You would prioritize that. Are you going to go do something for your child? You're going to prioritize that.
 
So, I need you to also take time to prioritize your me time, prioritize the time. It's not selfish. It's necessary because you're going to be a better wife.
 
You're going to be a better mom. You're going to be a better friend. If you take care of the needs, whether that's taking an Epsom salt bath once a week, and that's spending time mourning sunlight or writing a list of gratitude, doing things, write a list of things that bring you joy and just pick two or three of those a day.
 
Like build that in - life's too short. Literally cortisol will kill you. Also, we didn't talk about that, but it's taking minutes off your life.
 
So, life's too short to have cortisol, unnecessary cortisol spikes. So, as much as we can,  it's prioritizing that learning the healthy boundaries saying no when needed to, and, not saying yes to everything. So, that is, it's a lot of those lifestyle things.
 
And then, fine tuning it with a health practitioner is great because everybody's spikes and crashes are in different places. Some people have high cortisol. Some people further on into the adrenal fatigue have low cortisol because the body doesn't have any more cortisol to give.
 
And that's a whole other list of symptoms of exhaustion and fatigue. And they might need actually glandular support and different, totally different supplements than someone that's got high cortisol, but they can present similarly as far as stubborn weight, puffiness, energy spikes and crashes and different things like that.
 
Laura Dugger: (42:40 - 43:04) So how incredible to get to follow up with a health professional then, and you are certainly one that we would recommend. And so even if we're out of state, but we could make a first appointment with you and figure out some way to do telehealth, can you just give us your website or share what you have to offer so that we can maybe make a follow-up appointment after this conversation?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:05 - 43:38) So it's pureintegrativehealth.com. And I could click on the tab, become a patient, just fill that form out. And then we can talk about a plan if you're in Tennessee, great.
 
We can just right away, we know you're in person. If you are out of state, I have to see you in person for the first initial eval and then we can come up with some hybrid plan of telemedicine in between visits and legally just need to be able to see you still once a year or something in person, but we could do the rest in telemedicine options.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:39 - 43:58) So yeah, it's a wonderful option. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Emily, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:59 - 46:04) Well, in regards to this topic today with hormones, I would say my Savvy Sauce is actually, it would be around getting that bedtime routine down packed in order to have an eight to 10 hours of like actual sleep because the mind does a brain sweep and gets rid of toxins in the brain between seven and a half hours and nine hours. It's happened somewhere in that window. And so if we're skipping out on sleep, we're missing out.
 
If you're getting even six hours, you're missing out on the neural brain sweep that actually gets rid of the toxins that prevent Alzheimer's, dementia, a lot of other problems. The metabolism at nighttime, the body literally burns fat at night. We have to get sleeping.
 
And so, and if you're having problems sleeping, you're like, I want to sleep, but I haven't, then I would recommend start looking into different forms of magnesium. I can't get into it fully today because there's seven different kinds of magnesium, but there are some that will actually help with sleep. And so talk with your practitioner about the best forms that could help you increase your sleep as well, because most of us can be deficient in that and creating that really, really healthy rhythm.
 
Just knowing your why behind why you're sleeping is also really helpful because it's like, you can hear a lot of people say, you need to get more sleep. I should go to bed, do this, but why? It's actually getting a neural sweep, liver is detoxing, cholesterol is cleansing.
 
God does an incredible thing with our dreams. We're literally flushing and processing all the things from the day. And so, talk about stress and adrenals.
 
We got to help heal through our sleep.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:05 - 46:26) Wow. Thank you for leaving us with that word. There's so much more we could cover.
 
And ever since our first interaction, you have just been overflowing with kindness and graciousness and generosity with your time and sharing your knowledge. You're so kind, but I have just loved spending this time with you. Thank you so much, Emily, for being my repeat guest.
 
Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (46:27 - 46:32) Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much, Laura, for having me again. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:33 – 50:15) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
 
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
 
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
 
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
 
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
 
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
 
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

269_Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston

269. Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston
 
*Disclaimer* This episode contains some mature themes and listener discretion is advised.
 
2 Corinthians 1:4 NIRV "He comforts us in all our troubles. Now we can comfort others when they are in trouble. We ourselves receive comfort from God."
 
*Transcript Below*
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
Will you share three of the questions from your most recent book, specifically the ones people have told you unlocked the best conversations in their own marriage?
You say you're an unlikely couple to help support marriages. Will you share a glimpse of your own backstory?
What are a handful of ideas for ways couples can strengthen their connection with one another?
 
Casey and Meygan Caston are the Co-Founders of Marriage365. Casey and Meygan were perfect examples of what not to do in marriage. Three years into marriage, they found themselves having racked up more than $250,000 in debt, fighting constantly, and were ready to call it quits. Despite the 12 failed marriages between their parents, they knew this wasn't the legacy they wanted for themselves or their children. They began reading and educating themselves on how to do marriage the right way. The result of their journey is Marriage365, where they millions of people worldwide through their books, social media, retreats, and their online streaming service, Marriage365.
 
Marriage 365 Website
Marriage 365 App
Marriage 365 Books
Marriage 365 Coaching
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
 
Sample of Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:
4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen
5 Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau 
6 Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
89 Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
135 Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
155 Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
156 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
158 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
186 Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
252 Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcript*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:15) 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
 
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.
 
To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. 
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Casey and Meygan.
 
Casey Caston: 
Thanks for having us. Excited to be here.
 
Laura Dugger: So, thrilled to have both of you, and let's just dive right into one of your sweet spots. How can open-ended questions change a marriage?
 
Casey Caston: (1:16 - 2:33) 
Yeah, well, if you think about when we first met somebody that we fell in love with, fell attracted to that first date, as you're sitting across the table, you are looking at that person with so much curiosity. Like, who is this person? What are their hopes and their dreams and their life experiences?
 
What are they afraid of? Where are they going in life? And that curiosity drove us to ask really good open-ended questions.
 
Like, tell me more about yourself. It's funny because we were just reading in Proverbs this morning that in a man's heart, he has a purpose, but a man of understanding draws from the deep wells to pull that out. And I just, I always think about how a great question plums the deep wells of a man's heart or woman's heart.
 
And that attraction, that energy we feel, helps us with asking great questions. But then what happens is when we get married and we move into the wash, rinse, repeat of childcare and chores and, you know, the mundaneness of going to work, coming home, dinner, like, it can really sap all of the romance out of a relationship. And so, what happens is we fall into asking really boring questions.
 
Meygan Caston: (2:33 - 2:34) 
Like, how was your day?
 
Casey Caston: (2:34 - 2:36) 
What's picking up the kids?
 
Meygan Caston: (2:36 - 2:37) 
What's for dinner? Yeah.
 
Casey Caston: (2:38 - 3:18) 
So, we realize that when the well is dry, so to speak, you're not asking those great questions. We need prompts. We need an outside prompt because I don't think naturally we would ask great questions to spark this, you know, connecting conversation.
 
And I will tell you too, that if you just dropped in and, you know, just ask your spouse, like, “Hey, so, tell me some boundaries we need to set up with your parents.” People are going to be like, “Excuse me, where did that question come from? And what's the question behind the question?
 
What's your motivation here?” But those are conversations we need to have. We just need prompts.
 
So, yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:19 - 3:32) 
Well, I love that response. And I'm also curious after working with so many married couples, what have you seen as that connection between these amazing prompts for open-ended questions and emotional intimacy?
 
Meygan Caston: (3:34 - 4:20) 
Yeah. Well, kind of like what Casey was mentioning about, um, just that curiosity of getting to know each other. I think the other part of asking those open-ended questions and having these deeper conversations is really about intentionality.
 
Like you still care about me. You still want to know about my heart. Well, for us, 25 years later, I still care about you.
 
I still love you. And I think that of course, as women, we long for that emotional connection. And I don't think that men realize it, but they actually long for that too.
 
And it's creating a safe place for spouses to share, to cry, to even, um, dream together about their future. And I think, again, if we don't give ourselves those opportunities and we're not intentional with that, we get stuck in the mundaneness of marriage.
 
Casey Caston: (4:20 - 5:03) 
But, uh, and I would add to that, that curiosity, Meygan, I've talked about how curiosity is the pursuit of something. Right. And we all long to be desired to be pursued.
 
I mean, that is, that underlying communication is so powerful in relationships, because if you think about it, if you're not being pursued and your spouse isn't curious, I mean, that's like the, the heart of apathy. It's like, I don't care. And I know that people aren't intentionally trying to communicate that, but when you feel that, like my spouse doesn't really care about what I dream about or what I'm hoping to achieve this year, they just come home and they just watch TV or they're on their phone.
 
Meygan Caston: (5:04 - 5:18) 
Right. That communicates a lot non-verbally. And so, that's why these open-ended questions are something that we should never stop being a learner of each other and of ourselves.
 
And that will provide that emotional intimacy.
 
Laura Dugger: (5:19 - 5:45) 
That's so good. And obviously your resources are amazing. I would love, because you have these 365 Connecting Questions for Couples.
 
And so, I want to just hear maybe three of these questions that come to mind for you guys, especially as you've heard, these are the ones that tend to unlock something deeper in the conversation.
 
Meygan Caston: (5:46 - 6:07) 
Absolutely. So, August 3rd is, are you someone who spends a lot of time in deep thought, processing things before making a decision, or do you tend to make quick decisions? Why or why not?
 
That question has genuinely sparked so much conversation between us and even like with our kids and other couples. Maybe you can explain why.
 
Casey Caston: (6:07 - 6:11) 
Yeah. Well, I'm Mr. Impulsivity, so.
 
Meygan Caston: (6:11 - 6:29) 
Yeah, you are. Where I, I don't, I wouldn't consider myself a deep thinker, but I definitely like to make pros and cons lists and think through things. But if you think about a dynamic between a husband and a wife, you know, there are so many decisions that you make together, small and large, your whole life, every day.
 
Casey Caston: (6:29 - 6:30) 
Decision-making is huge in relationships.
 
Meygan Caston: (6:31 - 6:57) 
And it's an everyday thing that couples are tackling. And it's important to know that no one is better than the other. It's not that a deep thinker is better than a more impulsive person.
It's kind of more just naturally how you are. Have you always been this way? Do you like that about yourself?
 
Wow. You know, well, when it comes to these bigger decisions, I do spend, make more time, you know, thinking through and pros and cons. Oh, well, with small decisions, I'm more impulsive.
I mean, you could just talk about that for hours and hours.
 
Casey Caston: (6:57 - 7:01)
Yeah. But what's interesting is I tend to think more futuristic and big picture.
 
Meygan Caston: (7:01 - 7:01) 
Yes.
 
Casey Caston: (7:01 - 7:03) 
Even though I'm impulsive in the moment.
 
Meygan Caston: (7:03 - 7:05) 
And I cannot, I can't do that.
 
Casey Caston: (7:05 - 7:06) 
You are Ms. Realist.
 
Meygan Caston: (7:06 - 7:08) 
Just tell me today, tell me this week.
 
Casey Caston: (7:09 - 7:10) 
I can't think about this fun sponge.
 
Meygan Caston: (7:11 - 7:11) 
Yes. Yeah.
 
Casey Caston: (7:12 - 7:15) 
Because I'm like, let's dream big. And she's like, yeah, but what's happening today?
 
Meygan Caston: (7:16 - 7:49) 
Yeah. Yeah. Another great question is January 18th.
 
How can we romance each other during the day in anticipation of sex? Because as we all know, us ladies, we need the foreplay. But again, I think that husbands also enjoy the foreplay.
 
But I don't think that couples are having these conversations. I think they think a foreplay is, well, once we enter into the bedroom, you know, and what we like to say is it's anything positive is foreplay. So, a thoughtful text, you know, a flirty I'm going to grab your hand to empty out the dishwasher.
 
Casey Caston: (7:49 - 7:50) 
Amen.
 
Meygan Caston: (7:50 - 7:55) 
Yeah. You know, it's those kinds of conversations. But like, I would never think of asking you that.
 
Casey Caston: (7:56 - 7:56) 
Right.
 
Meygan Caston: (7:56 - 7:58) 
Right. Thankfully for those.
 
Casey Caston: (7:58 - 8:10) 
But as you know, Laura, like couples that need to talk about their sex life. And if you don't talk about your sex life, most oftentimes there's a lot of assumptions. And that leads to, you know, dysfunction.
 
Meygan Caston: (8:11 - 9:14) 
Well, and missed expectations. Totally. Yeah.
And then I have another question. April 25th is how do our differences help complement each other?
 
Oh, so, kind of another one of those things, like with making decisions. Every single couple has differences. And we always tell people Casey, and I are more different than alike.
 
I think people see us online and whatnot. And they hear, oh, we're both extroverts. We are.
So, we have some similarities. We're both stubborn, very competitive, both competitive. But in the day-to-day operations of who Casey and Meygan are, we make decisions, we run our lives, run our business, run our business.
 
We are completely opposite. And what I think it's good to do for couples is to actually own your differences rather than shy away from them or make yourselves feel bad, like, oh, I wish we were the same. I get it.
 
You know, we actually are attracted to those things when we're dating. That's why opposites attract. But then when we get married, it's like, why doesn't he do everything the same way?
I do it because I do it the right way. That's what we think. Right.
 
Casey Caston: (9:15 - 9:21) 
Well, you heard the joke that marriage is about becoming one. And in the earlier years, it's about which one.
 
Meygan Caston: (9:21 - 10:14) 
Yeah. Which one? Which figure out?
 
Yeah. And so, that question really allows you to identify your differences, but then go, how do they balance each other out? And I think for me, as someone who is organized, type A Casey's very spontaneous.
 
If we were both type A and structured, we wouldn't have a lot of fun. We really wouldn't. His spontaneity really brings out that side of me.
 
But if we were both spontaneous, our bills would never be paid, and we'd be broke. So, you know, I'm a I'm a saver. He's a spender.
 
You can see the balance in that. It's good that we're both those things. Right.
 
I'm on time. He's late. We could continue going on and on and on and on.
 
But I think that he's a risk taker. I'm a complete play it safer. And so, those really draw out a beautiful balance in our marriage versus trying to change one another.
 
So, I hope that question sparks listeners to really ask your spouse that and have fun with the conversation.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 11:03) 
Well, you chose three great ones. I love it. And they draw out such different parts of our personality.
 
You highlighted where Casey's more futuristic. Meygan, you're more present. Some people will connect with questions that direct them more past oriented.
 
And so, our orientation to time comes out and the meta conversations, the talking like having the conversation about your conversation. Just so much goodness. And yes, especially with sexual intimacy.
 
So, many couples report that it is much harder to engage in conversation about sex rather than just have sex. And like you said, missed expectations can be one of the blow ups there, among many other things. So, you have questions that don't shy away from all forms of intimacy.
 
Meygan Caston: (11:04 - 11:10) 
Yeah. And to also say we have a lot of fun questions, too. Like, tell me about what your bedroom looked like when you were a teenager.
 
Casey Caston: (11:11 - 11:12) 
That's a great one. I love that one.
 
Meygan Caston: (11:12 - 11:47) 
Let's talk couples. If you had a really hard day with the kids or at work, pick a fun question. You don't have to go by the date.
 
If you don't like the question, it's triggering, then flip to the next one. But going back to that emotional intimacy and connection that you were talking about, Laura, is you have to have those deep questions and those conversations. And you did when you were dating, because if you went on a date with your husband and you were like, hey, tell me, you know, what do you want to do when you retire?
 
And he was like, I don't know. Yeah, you'd be like snooze fest. This guy's boring, right?
 
Or if he was on his phone the whole time, there was something intriguing about your spouse.
 
Casey Caston: (11:47 - 11:48) 
I don't know. I don't know.
 
Meygan Caston: (11:48 - 12:01) 
Yeah, there was something intriguing about your spouse when you were dating and you were asking those questions that should never stop. Just like we hear that quote, never stop dating your spouse. Well, never stop learning about your spouse.
 
It's the same thing. Absolutely.
 
Laura Dugger: (12:02 - 12:16) 
And I love how you two have such a humble approach because you say that you're a very unlikely couple to help support marriages. So, will you let us in on your own backstory?
 
Meygan Caston: (12:17 - 12:46) 
Yeah, well, can I just start off by saying this? We live in a county that has one of the highest divorce rates in the nation. So, it's 72 percent divorce rate where we live.
 
We also come from there's 12 marriages between our parents. So, we come from so much divorce and trauma. And then we also got married very, very, very young.
 
So, all those statistics were against us on top of that. I'm just going to start off by saying that.
Casey Caston: (12:46 - 13:18) 
Yeah, my mom's been married six times. So, when by the time I hit junior high, I had probably like nine different iterations of home life and different dads and step siblings and half brothers. And all of that between both of our parents.
 
There's just there's some mental illness. There's affairs. There's all this trauma that was really unprocessed.
 
But then when Meygan and I saw each other, it was like we knew the wounds that we shared. It was like almost like a trauma bond.
 
Meygan Caston: (13:19 - 13:19) 
Yeah.
 
Casey Caston: (13:19 - 14:08) 
Like, oh, I've got abandonment. So, do you. And, you know, let's do it's like, wow.
 
So, let's make each other happy. And dating was just all the fun stuff, right? It was long walks along the beach.
 
It was going to street fairs or, you know, going out and having fun. And then we're like, if this is what life could be like, then we should do this forever and ever and ever. And just, you know, we were so doe eyed of like and optimistic about how marriage life would look like.
 
So, then once we did get married, done, done, done, we had to like work through stuff. Now, I was so conflict avoidant because I was afraid if there was conflict, then that means that there's going to be distance between Meygan and I and she might leave me.
 
Meygan Caston: (14:08 - 14:24) 
Oh, there's another there's another difference. I'm a fighter. He's a fighter.
 
So, anytime we would have conflict triggers, you know, emotional regulation, I was like, we're going to go for it. Now, of course, my fighting tactics were not healthy. I yelled.
I blamed. I was very aggressive, assertive.
 
Casey Caston: (14:24 - 14:37) 
Conflict was very scary for me. Now. Now, Meygan, she's like wanting to deal with issues.
And here I am, like trying to run for the hills. And she's like, he doesn't care about me. And I'm like, I'm trying to protect the marriage by not dealing with it.
 
Meygan Caston: (14:37 - 14:49) 
So, you never really resolved anything. We would fight really bad. We broke all the fighting rules.
 
And then there was no true resolve, no apologies, no remorse. And you just kind of move forward.
 
Casey Caston: (14:49 - 15:06) 
And so, then we piled ourselves like we had over two hundred fifty thousand dollars of debt when we started to try to work on getting pregnant. We we dealt with infertility. We I have ADHD, so that creates a lot of that's fun.
 
A lot of fun for the marriage.
 
Meygan Caston: (15:06 - 15:08) 
The divorce rate is very high with ADHD.
 
Casey Caston: (15:08 - 15:10) 
My life gets to teach you patience.
 
Meygan Caston: (15:11 - 15:11) 
Yeah.
 
Casey Caston: (15:12 - 16:44) 
But and then we have a child with special needs as well. So, we we had like if there's something that could go wrong, it it went wrong. We had you know, once we got married, there was toxic in-laws that boundaries that were crossed.
 
So, it just nothing for us came easy. And so, that's why we were the least likely to succeed in marriage. I mean, if we there was a couple doomed from the get go, it was Meygan and I believe a hundred percent that God used those trials, those hardships to create marriage.
 
Three sixty five. He gave us the strength to, you know, have the courage to say we're not going to follow in our parents footsteps. We're going to change that. 
 
You know, it ends with us literally like we are going to change and break this generational sin because it goes back many, many generations for both of us. Our whole family is littered with divorce. And now like when we approach marriage, it because of where we've come from, it wasn't all flowery.
 
It was really tough. We have to be practical and very tactical with our advice, because when you're sitting across from a couple that's angry and resentful. We have to sit there and go, we know what that's like.
 
And here's exactly what you need to do next. I'm not going to give you a platitude. I'm not going to give you some flowery statement or we're not going to just talk through it. 
 
No, we're going to give you a tool and an action step that's going to help you.
Laura Dugger: (16:46 - 18:56) 
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I'd love to hear even more into the redemption part of it, because Marriage 365, you had shared before we had recorded that you launched that in 2013. So, just to get the timeline straight, had you already done some work and some counseling before you launched that?
 
Meygan Caston: (18:56 - 19:26) 
Or what was that journey? Yeah, so, we always say we it took us two years to fall in love and get married. It took us three years to destroy our marriage, and it took about four or five years to repair our marriage.
 
It was, as you know, Laura, it is not a quick fix when your marriage is as bad as ours. And so, our story is unique in the sense where we were both not wanting to get help for our marriage. I love you, babe, but he was resistant.
 
He didn't want to go to therapy. His family didn't go to therapy. That wasn't normalized.
 
Casey Caston: (19:26 - 19:31) 
Well, my faith background said that therapy is bad from the from the devil.
 
Meygan Caston: (19:31 - 19:38) 
It was specifically your parents. But from the devil. Yeah, because I have a faith background, too. And my parents went to therapy. But that's what I was saying.
 
Casey Caston: (19:38 - 19:40) 
My background was that you don't do that.
 
Meygan Caston: (19:40 - 21:16)
 Yeah. So, I was wanting to get divorced and he wouldn't divorce me. He was like, no.
 
So, if you're going to do it, you got to do it. And so, I got help for myself. And I had the most amazing woman who a therapist who just walked me through basically how to save my marriage by myself.
 
And she goes, listen, you know, at the end of the day, if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. You have zero control over Casey. You have 100 percent control over you.
 
He's not here. You are. I can show you how to communicate, how to forgive him even without getting an apology.
 
I can show you how to bring to his defenses down. I can show you how to create boundaries so he doesn't yell at you anymore. I mean, and that's literally for 13 months I worked on myself.
And I believe that that is what genuinely changed everything. And that's really the message behind Marriage 365 is if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. Stop waiting around for your husband or your wife to get on board.
 
They may never. Then you're only going to build resentment while you sit there and wait. At the end of the day, you're responsible for how you show up.
 
And so, in that 13 months, the hope was, of course, that I would positively influence Casey, which I did. And he saw the change in me. Everything changed.
 
I mean, like we both used to be yellers, right? We would both yell and scream. And I was like, I'm not going to yell anymore.
 
Like, I just I don't want to be a yeller of a mom. I don't want to be a yeller of a wife. Like, I don't like this part of me. My mom was a yeller. I mean, oh, yeah, I hate this. And I just remember like one day he came walking in and he was all heated and frustrated and he started yelling at me. And do you remember what I did, babe?
 
Casey Caston: (21:17 - 21:33) 
Yeah. She looked at me and calmly said, you know, I can tell that you're very upset. I really want to have to listen to what you want to share with me.
 
Why don't you go outside, take a break, come back in? We're going to sit back on the couch. We can talk about it. I'm here for you. And I was like, what a change.
 
Meygan Caston: (21:33 - 22:07) 
Who is this person? I changed the way that we did marriage. I did that.
 
And I tell people that I didn't do that once. I didn't do it twice. I did that for months because we had habits we had created.
 
But I was like, that was like a new boundary. I'm like, I'm not going to engage with him when he's angry. It's been triggered.
 
Nothing good is coming from this. So, it was all of that we started to really adopt and learn together because he's like, you're a different person. Like, it was obvious we were doing the tango.
 
And now I was doing the rumba and he was over there doing the tango. And I'm like, come join me in the healthy rumba over here because it's way better.
 
Casey Caston: (22:07 - 22:09) 
And so, for toxic tango.
 
Meygan Caston: (22:09 - 23:20) 
Yeah, we went to a marriage. Yeah, we went to a marriage intensive. And we did some therapy.
 
We did a lot of self-help. But through that journey, this is kind of where we started Marriage 365 is. First off, we couldn't afford therapy.
 
We needed to pay off all that debt that we had with a lot of student loan debt, a lot of stupid debt. What do you do if you can't afford therapy? What do you do if you don't have a good therapist?
 
What do you do if you have a bad experience with therapy? What do you do if the books aren't enough? And that was there was a really big hole and missing part in the marriage.
 
I don't say industry, but in the marriage space, where were all the online resources? Because this was back again in like 2010 when like podcasts weren't even around, social media was just becoming a thing. And it was really hard.
 
We were really disappointed with the lack of resources there were for marriage. And it felt like every church you go to, there was, you know, the missions ministry and the children's ministry and the youth groups. And all those are great.
 
Where in the world are all the marriage ministries? Then we found out only 3% of churches have actual paid marriage ministries. And I thought, that's messed up.
 
That's reverse. It's supposed to be the opposite, because then everything else will work itself out, as we know, with what research shows.
 
Casey Caston: (23:20 - 23:21) 
Same with men's ministry, by the way.
 
Meygan Caston: (23:21 - 23:22) 
Yes, same with men's ministry.
 
Casey Caston: (23:22 - 23:23) 
Men's and marriage.
 
Meygan Caston: (23:23 - 23:26) 
That's like the stepchild.
 
Casey Caston: (23:26 - 23:33) 
Tech guy slash men's guy slash, you know. Children's persons can also do marriage.
 
Meygan Caston: (23:33 - 23:40) 
So, we really just started helping our friends out. Obviously, people could see the change. Then people would come to us. We started helping couples at our church.
 
Casey Caston: (23:40 - 23:48) 
And we had a ghoul pool. Like people were like, we give you guys another like ten months and then we're expecting you.
 
Meygan Caston: (23:48 - 23:51) 
Yeah, everyone that knew us thought we'd get divorced.
 
Casey Caston: (23:51 - 23:52) 
We were messy.
 
Meygan Caston: (23:52 - 23:58) 
We were bad. Yeah. So, to see the complete transformation. And again, I go back to that work we did was on ourselves.
 
Casey Caston: (23:58 - 25:31) 
And I just have to say that if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. If you're hearing that. And you're kind of in a one sided marriage right now, I got to just say, I know that message sucks because it's a message that says you have to go first.
 
And that's not fair. In a marriage, you're supposed to be a team. But I do want to say there's so many couples that are stuck.
Waiting for their spouse to join them on the let's get healthy train. So, their spouse doesn't join them. And then what they do is they kind of lean back, fold their arms and go, well, I guess we're stuck.
 
But I want to say that that's there is a message of empowerment to say you do have influence and the ability to steer your marriage in a healthy way. I have lots of regret that I did not join that train much sooner. But the story is that Meygan, you know, became the hero of our journey.
 
And that is something that I work actively so that I'm never in that place again, that I am the one that's always actively trying to improve myself, that I'm a better communicator, that I'm not a yeller, which we've ditched that a long time ago, that that I'm considered of Meygan's needs. And I'm even like attuned to like, what is she feeling? And how do I meet her where she's at?
 
Laura Dugger: (25:32 - 25:54) 
Which is amazing that watching Meygan, it was compelling enough for you to join in. And it's admirable on both sides, the work that you've done. And are there any specific areas that you grew in that now you teach couples? I'm thinking specifically under conflict and repair or communication.
 
Casey Caston: (25:55 - 27:42) 
Yeah. So, I remember those early years and every single week was chaos to chaos. Like coming home, it'd be like, what's for dinner?
 
I'm hungry and we need to make a decision now. Or, you know, it's Friday night or Saturday morning. What's going on this weekend?
 
Or where's all our money going? It was very, it was very reactionary. And I remember reading through Stephen Covey's, you know, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
 
And the first habit is be proactive. You cannot be intentional with your life. You cannot create purpose and meaning unless you are proactive with your life.
 
So, Meygan and I, you know, I'm working in a company and every single week we get together and we go through what are everyone's goals? What do we need to accomplish this week? We find alignment and the week goes really well.
 
We've got KPIs. We've got all these like, hey, as a team, you know, work team, here's what we're trying to accomplish this week. And it just kind of dawned on us like, well, why don't we do that in marriage?
 
Why don't we do that for a family? You got a family of six. You got six people running around the house.
All have agendas. And you are trying to find alignment so that, hey, this is what the family is all about this week, right? We've got tournaments.
 
We've got parties. We've got projects. We've got meals.
 
And I think for so many couples we talk to, they live. Life with purpose on like building their career or their business or purpose with other areas of their life. And then when it comes to family, they wing it.
 
Meygan Caston: (27:42 - 27:43) 
They just wing it.
 
Casey Caston: (27:43 - 28:31) 
Yeah. And it's like, well, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. It's the winging attitude creates chaos.
 
And so, Meygan and I love to teach this tool called the Weekly Marriage Business Meeting. And it is all of the logistics of our relationship schedules, meal plans, budgets, connection time, sexy time, alone time, self-care time. Yeah.
 
And and we kind of set with intention the week ahead for us. And we go through all the decisions of who's going, what, where, when. And all of that's done.
 
So, when you walk into the day, you're not like stressed about what's supposed to be happening. There is alignment and there's no missed expectations.
 
Meygan Caston: (28:31 - 29:27) 
Yeah, there's no fights anymore about, well, you said you'd be home at six. No, I didn't. I said I'd be home at seven.
 
We sync our calendars. And I think, too, a big thing with this is we've noticed we fight when we don't do this now. It's one of those tools that it's prevented most of conflict.
 
I mean, we say it will on average for the most couples that use it. We have at least over 10,000 couples we know right now currently using it that are our members that they say it cuts conflict in half in half, because what you're doing is you're even scheduling that connection time or date night time where you're like, no matter how busy we are, when are Casey and Meygan going to get to be Casey and Meygan?
 
And that's so important, because again, if you're winging it and you're just trying to find time to connect, well, you've got four kids, we've got two teenagers. It's never going to happen. Right. And so, the weekly marriage business meeting is definitely one of the amazing and favorite worksheets and tools that we've taught and that we use ourselves because it works.
 
Casey Caston: (29:28 - 29:28) 
Yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:28 - 29:59) 
What a game changer. That is awesome and so practical, so intentional, which we're all about. But then also we had talked about emotional intimacy earlier and emotional intimacy is interconnected with sexual intimacy and communication is the root issue.
 
And that's what you teach couples. So, what are some conversations that couples can begin so that they can grow in both of those types of intimacy and enjoyment?
 
Casey Caston: (30:01 - 31:34) 
Yeah, so, I feel like I have to start off by saying I got this so wrong when we were first married. It's OK. I forgive you now.
 
Yeah, because, you know. Let's just let's be we'll be we'll be completely transparent. So, Meygan and I waited to have sex until we were married.
 
So, now I actually waited till I was married to have sex. And I thought that under that purity guideline, I was promised maybe by a youth group, maybe by a convention, that if you withhold sex and remain pure, God is going to bless you with the best sex life when you're married. And that just simply did not happen.
 
Like when we first got married, I really got went into the bedroom thinking. I don't know what foreplay is, but let's have intercourse until I come and then we're done. And that's sex.
That's our sexual intimacy. And we missed out on so many intimate ways of knowing each other and sex being an obligation and something like I just was demanding of it from Meygan. And.
What I've come to discover and what I love to teach other men is that sex is so much more broader than just having intercourse. I mean, there was this total understanding like, well, I feel good during intercourse. This feels very stimulating, which means that Meygan must feel the exact same way while we're having intercourse.
 
Meygan Caston: (31:35 - 31:35) 
Nope.
 
Casey Caston: (31:36 - 32:35) 
Because that's because listen, I never had sex before. But anytime I watched a rom com, you know, the guy threw up, you know, against the wall or they're having intercourse and she's going and he's going and they're having a great time. Like this must be what sex is all about.
 
And what I've discovered now and I get to teach other men is that emotional intimacy is kind of the birthplace of sexual expression of love, right? That we we create safe places for our wives to to open up. And because of that, they become more willing and wanting that that sexual expression rather than us just coming in and saying, OK, it's time for sex.
 
Let's go. And so, when we talk about just this book, this 365 Connecting Questions for Couples, I tell my guys, I'm like, hey, if you want to have great sex, start here because that is foreplay.
 
Meygan Caston: (32:35 - 33:48) 
That's start here. It's good to know my heart, not just use me for my body, which can feel like that for a lot of people. And I think going back to the emotional intimacy, I think that, again, you had that when you were dating or you wouldn't have gotten married.
 
There was no way you were. If the person was boring, closed off, if, you know, your spouse was just completely on their phone every time, you wouldn't have had that second, third, fourth date. So, there was emotional intimacy at some point, which means you can't ever say we never had it. 
 
You can always get it back, but you can have to be intentional. And I think a great way is we call it connection time. I think date night scares a lot of people. 
 
I think it's the idea of. We have to go to a restaurant, we have to spend money, we have to find a babysitter, all these hurdles that you have to go through to make it happen, so then couples just don't even do it. So, we're like, listen, if you if that's overwhelming to you, then try connection time. 
 
And really what that is, it's still undivided, you know, attention and time with you and your spouse. Maybe it's smaller, maybe it's 15 minutes, 30 minutes. And I know for when our kids were little, we played board games and card games and they'd go to bed, you know, at 7:30 or 8:00 PM. 
 
And we would bring out Yahtzee.
 
Casey Caston: (33:48 - 33:51) 
There'd be a lot of trash talking over chutes and ladders.
 
Meygan Caston: (33:52 - 34:29) 
But we would play. We would play games. And it was our time to connect. 
 
And when we didn't talk about the kids, you know, we just chatted about our day and again, going through some of these connecting questions that didn't even really exist yet, but they were in our heads. Taking a walk with the dog and, you know, going to a little local coffee shop, even if it's just 30 minutes and sharing and talking and exploring that emotional intimacy should never stop again. And that's going to give people opportunities to then go into the bedroom, like Casey mentioned, more willing and more excited to be intimate to each other because it's like, oh, that's right. 
 
We like each other. We're still married. We're still friends.
 
Casey Caston: (34:29 - 35:15) 
You bring up a great point. Like I said, I think sitting down over the table, staring at each other can be intimidating for a lot of guys, because especially if this is not a regular habit in your relationship and taking a walk for guys when we're doing something and maybe it's less intimidating because we're not even staring at each other. But that kind of like getting the, you know, oxytocin going, like getting moving, like that kind of adrenaline can actually stimulate guys for good conversations and processing things. 
 
And so, what we hear from a lot of couples that take our book, maybe they'll take a picture of the question and they'll go, Hey, let's take a walk. And then they'll use the question on their walk.
 
Meygan Caston: (35:15 - 35:15) 
Yeah.
 
Casey Caston: (35:15 - 35:24) 
And that gets conversations going. So, if that's like a on ramp onto this, that's a that's a great starting point for a lot of people.
 
Laura Dugger: (35:24 - 36:48) 
Oh, that's so good. And I love how you say just an on ramp, because the goal is more intimacy overall together to know one another, be known. And I love that you're showing this is not a manipulation factor. 
 
This isn't ask these questions so we can be more active in the bedroom, regardless of whichever spouse is the higher desire one. But this is to really enhance all levels of your relationship. And as you talk about oxytocin, it just makes me think such an interesting cycle that the Lord created where I will speak more stereotypically that where women require the emotional connection and then they open up and enjoy sex more. 
 
But then men, once they've had sex and they just have this like 500 percent increase of oxytocin in this neurochemical bath that opens them up emotionally. And we could see it even as we view our differences. You could be upset because they're opposite or we can see it as a gift that they can fuel one another. 
 
And then we get more of a holistic picture of overall intimacy. So, I'll also link to quite a few episodes because we do about one per month where we dive deeper into sexual intimacy. S
 
o, I can link all of those in the show notes. 
 
But Casey, were you going to say something?
 
Meygan Caston: (36:49 - 36:50) 
I want to say something to it.
 
Casey Caston: (36:51 - 37:16) 
He loves. Well, so, we're talking chicken and egg, right? Like who gets the emotional intimacy, who gets the physical intimacy first? 
 
And I just think that there's if we approach our relationship with selfishness, well, then neither people get satisfied. But if we are in an approach to serve one another and be selfless lovers. So, men would be like, you know what? 
 
I want to meet my wife's emotional needs.
 
Meygan Caston: (37:16 - 37:16) 
Yeah.
 
Casey Caston: (37:17 - 37:38) 
Like and I do believe that men are the spark of initiation. If you're a husband out there listening to this, like that one of your greatest gifts to marriage is initiation. You were the one who asked for the first date. 
 
You were the one who got down one the knee. You are the spark of initiation. And I believe that God's created women as nurturers of that initiation.
 
Meygan Caston: (37:39 - 37:41) 
And to clarify, you're not talking just about initiating sex.
 
Casey Caston: (37:41 - 37:43) 
Well, yes. Just everything.
 
Meygan Caston: (37:43 - 37:55) 
Initiating, just initiating, initiating a weekly marriage business meeting. Women are so turned on by when a husband's like, hey, I don't necessarily know what we want to do for a date night, but I want to take you on a date. Can I get an amen, Laura?
 
Laura Dugger: (37:55 - 37:56) 
Right, sister?
 
Meygan Caston: (37:57 - 38:14) 
Hey, women are turned on. Listen, men, women are turned on. If you say, you know what? 
 
I know that like this has been an issue with my parents and I don't even know how to handle it, but I really want to have that conversation. Oh, my gosh. Just initiating the conversation is all we're looking for. 
 
It's OK that you don't have all the answers.
 
Casey Caston: (38:14 - 38:14) 
Yeah.
 
Meygan Caston: (38:14 - 38:23) 
But for men that avoid stonewall, escape, numb out, busy themselves, it is such a turnoff. It is so not what we want.
 
Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 39:55) 
I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit theSavvySauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities. And we are thrilled with the final product. 
 
So, I hope you check it out there. You're going to find all of our podcasts now with show notes and transcriptions listed a scrapbook of various previous guests and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nation with the good news of Jesus Christ. 
 
So, make sure you visit theSavvySauce.com. 
 
Okay, so, then continue the conversation with just overall intimacy. What are some examples of de-escalation techniques that you recommend to couples who are in conflict, ones that can maybe help the strained relationships so that they can be repaired? 
Yeah.
 
Meygan Caston: (39:55 - 42:19) 
Yeah. So, a big thing that I've learned as someone who's very direct, I can tend to be on that, like I mentioned, fighter side. And I know a lot of women, studies have shown 75 percent of us ladies are the ones that typically bring up the issues. 
 
So, just be aware that there is a gender difference there. And if you're a dude, there's nothing wrong with you if you're in, you know, that 75 percent or 25 percent. But I think the biggest thing I've recognized is to remind your spouse in the very beginning of the conversation, why you're having the conversation. 
 
You know, I love you. I love us. I want to see us be the best people that we can be. 
 
I want to see us enjoy marriage and enjoy life. I love you. Like bring the positivity and the reminder that you're better together than apart. 
 
And really, that's part of what we call a soft startup, right? There's a lot of different soft startups you've heard of. You know, I feel when you I need those work to but I like to take it a little bit deeper to say, remind your spouse how much that you love being married to them. 
 
Or again, whatever the issue is like we have the most. Let's say it's parenting. Casey and I are very different in our parenting styles. 
 
Last night would have been a great difference of how that happened. But like reminder that like we both love our children. We both want the best for our kids. 
 
No one doubts that. We both have made we made two beautiful, wonderful, quirky children. Right. 
 
And so, even you can start the conversation with that. But I wish that more people did that because I think people are are, you know, I'm really upset about something. OK, well, the second you say that defenses, sorry, but defenses are going to go up. 
 
We want to keep the conversations defenses low, guards low, right, de-escalation. And so, use soft startups, use kind, positive language. But I think another thing behind that would be come to the conversation processed. 
 
Do not have these conversations 11 o'clock at night when you're tired or when you're hungry. Do not have these conversations when it just happened and you haven't had the time to just like stop. Think about what do I really need? 
 
Why did that trigger me? What am I hoping to achieve? Why is my husband acting this way? 
 
Oh, is he under a lot of stress? Yeah, we got to give ourselves time to sit and process before we even use those soft startups. So, that would be my advice for de-escalation.
 
Casey Caston: (42:20 - 43:04) 
And mine actually would be an apology. I think that we all make mistakes. And when you think about a couple that's maybe living reactively, just winging it, I doubt that there's ever an apology that's given on either side because it takes a little it takes awareness to recognize, gosh, you know what? 
 
My that little comment I just made that probably had a little zing to it. Or, you know, I really let my spouse down by not parenting the children the way she would want me to. Or, you know, I said I was going to do something and I didn't. 
 
And I let my partner down. You want to de-escalate a tense situation. Apologize.
 
Meygan Caston: (43:04 - 43:04) 
Yeah. Own it.
 
Casey Caston: (43:05 - 43:12) 
When you apologize, you know, you're taking all of the heat out of the fire. They really are.
 
Meygan Caston: (43:12 - 43:16) 
And you're validating your spouse's feelings. Who doesn't want to be validated and seen? Everybody does.
 
Casey Caston: (43:16 - 43:38) 
And then you're taking responsibility and accountability for your actions, which is the trust builder for relationships. So, that's why when you talk about high conflict relationships, there aren't a lot of there's not a lot of trust there. It's not a safe place anymore. 
 
So, to create that safety, we want to we want to build trust back into the relationship.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:39 - 43:50) 
Those are fantastic. And do you guys just have maybe a handful of ideas for ways that couples can strengthen their marriage with one another?
 
Meygan Caston: (43:51 - 44:09) 
Absolutely. I would say, obviously, the weekly marriage business meeting. I mean, I know we talked about it, but the important thing is to schedule it, put it in the calendar because you don't want to wing it. 
 
And that way it's showing, oh, you're prioritizing us. Taking walks has been a big one for us. Playing games is a big one.
 
Casey Caston: (44:09 - 45:18) 
The 60 second blessing is where we intentionally spend time. 60 seconds reminding our partner of how much we love them, using our words to say, like, I saw how hard you work for the family. I love how you take care of the kids and kind of reminding your partner, like I see the goodness in each other. 
 
I think it's really important because. Day to day life, we can just be very transactional, and if we again, we have any sort of criticism or, you know, our words just are not flavored with life, well, proverb says, you know, our words have the power to give life or to give death. Right. 
 
So, the words that we speak, if we evaluate. Are we producing what I call weed seeds? Or are we planting fruit trees? 
 
Because weed seeds choke out the garden. Those sharp, critical words can leave your garden looking pretty shabby, whereas being intentional by speaking positive over each other. It's like planting fruit trees. 
 
And who doesn't like a good, juicy orange? Right.
 
Meygan Caston: (45:18 - 47:15) 
Well, and the 60 second blessing, you know, you start off by writing five to seven positive things you love about your spouse. And so, one spouse shares their list for 60 seconds and then the second spouse shares their list. And it's this habit that we actually started doing after our marriage intensive that we did as we were repairing our marriage because we had yeah, we had we had spoken such mean and harsh words or just a lot of roommate stuff. 
 
And we needed that positivity. And it's a great foreplay tip, by the way, just to sit, sometimes sit down and go, I just need to tell you how wonderful you are. Like, who doesn't want to hear that about themselves? 
 
I think another thing that Casey and I have recognized it is the only thing, by the way, Laura, in our marriage, the only thing that has ever stayed consistent. That's we have fun together. We laugh a lot, even in hard times. 
 
Yeah, it wasn't as enjoyable, but we still had fun. And, you know, again, fun is different for everybody. We don't ever want to judge someone else's fun. 
 
But we are constantly like we we are sarcastic. But that's for us because we have high trust levels. I usually tell couples if you're, you know, in a fair recovery or you have low trust levels, sarcasm is probably not great. 
 
But we're very playful. We have again, we play a lot of fun games and we play ping pong and cornhole and we take our dogs on our dog on a walk. And we, you know, we're going to try to go ax throwing in April. 
 
We've never done that before. Like there are fun that we've taken dance lessons. So, we like to think out of the box and do new things or things that we know that like how many games of Yahtzee have we played? 
 
I don't even know. I mean, we've lost count. Or gin rummy, you know, I mean, we just play Sequence or Rummikub like we play them all. 
 
And for that for us, that's really fun. We dance a lot. We love the 90’s music. 
 
Like get out your favorite playlist and just dance and sing and be goofy. Like I think if couples were to laugh and enjoy each other more and be able to laugh with themselves, I think that there would be more marriages that would stay together.
Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:39) 
That is something that I've even experienced in this time together. You guys are so fun to be around. And that's very life giving to others. 
 
But I can see where it starts in that secret place between just the two of you, your best friend. And you share a lot of this goodness with Marriage 365. So, can you let us know all the different things that you have to offer?
 
Casey Caston: (47:40 - 48:48) 
Yeah, I would probably say the number one way that people experience all of the resources that we've created over the years is through our mobile app. So, we have an app that has over a thousand pieces of videos, workshop, worksheet, excuse me, courses, challenges. We even have a checkup so you can actually rate kind of your marriage. 
 
And that is a great way for people to be able to have access, you know, on the spot if they're dealing with an issue, they don't know how to get through and they're looking for a tool or a conversation to help them work through that. That our app provides such a valuable resource. I mean, beyond that, you know, some couples need a little bit more hands on approach. 
 
So, we do coaching. We have a coaching staff actually to handle all the incoming couples that are saying, hey, can you can you help us out? And again, I just want to say coaching is really, really focused on giving action plans and homework and accountability to our clients. 
 
And coaching is really, really helpful if you're like, I just need to know what to do next.
 
Meygan Caston: (48:48 - 49:17) 
Yeah. We do intensives for couples that are in crisis, you know, there that are seriously considering separation or divorce or an affair recovery and that we have an over 90 percent success rate because we went through an intensive when we were struggling and it was something we knew we wanted to get trained on and do. And it's a full two days with Casey and I. 
 
I mean, two days back-to-back. We know you. We get Christmas cards from all of our couples, you know, every year. 
 
We love it. And it's they become almost I mean, yes, they're our clients, but they almost become like our friends.
 
Casey Caston: (49:17 - 49:45) 
Yeah. And then probably personally, one of my favorite things that we do is we host our own couple’s getaway. And this is a four-day experience. 
 
It's not your it's not like a typical retreat where you're sitting in a conference room, you're just getting lectured all day. We're actually facilitating tools and then giving couples opportunities to work on them. Then some free time to really spend some time making great memories. 
 
We have a dance party. It is a ton of fun.
 
Meygan Caston: (49:45 - 49:55) 
We make sure. Yeah, we make sure it's fun. It's more it's definitely more for couples who are doing OK or want to do better, not they're not ideal for couples in crisis because it's going to be very uncomfortable.
 
Casey Caston: (49:55 - 49:56) 
I love our retreats.
 
Meygan Caston: (49:56 - 49:57) 
I know.
 
Casey Caston: (49:57 - 49:58) 
I love interacting with her.
 
Meygan Caston: (49:58 - 50:05) 
And of course, we have our social media. You can just search Marriage 365 and then we have our website, too. And we have our books, of course.
 
Casey Caston: (50:05 - 50:09)
 Oh, and I have a men's group. I know I launched a five-week men's reset.
.
Meygan Caston: (50:09 - 50:34) 
Needless to say, Laura, we're really busy. I do a lot. I think that's what's funny, right? 
 
I think that people see us online and they think that we just have an Instagram, or we just have Facebook. And I'm like, we've been doing this for 12 years and we have a staff of 12 people. So, we reach a lot of people. 
 
And we because marriage is never a one stop, you know, one size fits all. It's it's true. There are so many different dynamics, and we want to be able to help as many people as we can.
 
Laura Dugger: (50:35 - 50:59) 
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. We will add all of those links. 
 
I love all these different offerings that you have and that will meet people in whatever phase they're in. But you two already know we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Meygan Caston: (51:00 - 51:47) 
Mine would be I would want every single person to think about becoming more confident. And that starts with becoming more self-aware. I think that that is completely changed who I am.
 
And I'm we're raising two kids, and I see the confidence that they have. And we're modeling that but also walking them through how to be self-aware. And really, that starts with having to be one with your thoughts, turning off the phone, sorry, turning off the podcast, sometimes turning off the music and just actually sitting and really going. 
 
Do I really know my thoughts, my feelings, my values, my personality, my good, my bad, my ugly? And we don't do this enough. We are busy ourselves. 
 
We're distracted constantly. And I think that it's really harming our mental health. And so, that would be my savvy sauce.
 
Casey Caston: (51:47 - 52:30) 
Hmm. I love that, babe. It's kind of hard because we find so much alignment. 
 
I mean, I would that's exactly what I would say, too. Um, I, you know, my focus in twenty, twenty-five has really been turned towards helping husbands. And there's a quote that Henry David Thoreau says that many men live lives of quiet desperation and they die with their songs still inside them. 
 
And most guys are terrified of stopping and evaluating. And so, for me, creating space too. Listen, I do a 10, 10, 10 practice in the morning.
 
Meygan Caston: (52:30 - 52:32) 
That's what I thought you were going to say.
 
Casey Caston: (52:32 - 52:32) 
Yeah, yeah.
 
Meygan Caston: (52:32 - 52:36) 
Well, I was like, I bet you he's going to talk about it because it's been life changing for you.
 
Casey Caston: (52:36 - 53:01) 
Yeah. So, I spend 10 minutes of scripture reading. So, that's input. 
 
Then I spend 10 minutes of quiet meditation where I'm sitting and I'm in a listening posture. And I mean, I think about everything from lasagna to the last wave I serve to. But there's intentionality about just opening myself like here I am. 
 
I'm ready to be downloaded on like what you have for me today.
 
Meygan Caston: (53:01 - 53:02) 
God be one with your thoughts.
 
Casey Caston: (53:03 - 53:18) 
Yeah. And all sorts of things come up. And then I spent 10 minutes journaling. 
 
And that process is just and that's like the output. Right. So, now I've got input. 
 
I've been listening and now I get to write stuff out. And that's been a huge game changer for me.
 
Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:43) 
Wow, I love both of those. You two are just refreshingly vulnerable and such an incredible mixture of intentional and lighthearted. And it has been so great just to sit under your teaching today. 
 
So, thank you for sharing your story and for helping all of us. And thank you just for being my guests.
 
Meygan Caston: (53:43 - 53:45) 
Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here.
 
Casey Caston: (53:45 - 53:49) 
Yes, you asked great questions that plumb the deep wells of Casey Meygan.
 
Laura Dugger: (53:52 - 57:35) 
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

Special Patreon Release_Wisdom from a Homeschooling Dad with Steve Lambert

Special Patreon Release: Wisdom from a Homeschooling Dad with Steve Lambert
 
Luke 6:40 (NI) "The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher."
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
What are some wonderful aspects of your lifestyle that are not available to families who are not home educating their children?
What are some common questions you get about homeschool and what truth do you have to replace the myths?
How long will prep take for the homeschooling parent and what does a typical schedule look like?
 
Steve Lambert has worn many hats in his 73 years: Pastor, author, speaker, stock broker and more. Together, he and his wife Jane Claire Lambert created and publish "Five in a Row" homeschool curriculum which has been a reader’s choice favorite for nearly 30 years. They began homeschooling their children in 1981 and their seven grandchildren were homeschooled as well.
 
Five in a Row Website
 
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:08)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:37) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.
 
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know?
 
Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A, East Peoria.
 
You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com/EastPeoria.
 
I'm excited to introduce you to my fascinating guest, Steve Lambert.
 
Steve has a unique perspective, as he has worn various hats, such as pastor, author, speaker, stockbroker, and more.
 
But today, we're going to hear various stories of how God has been faithful in calling he and his wife, Jane, to homeschool, and also publish homeschool curriculum called Five in a Row.
 
Regardless of our family schooling choice, these stories will build up our faith and remind us who we get to turn to in all things.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Steve.
 
Steve Lambert: (1:37 - 1:39) Good morning. It's great to be with you, Laura.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:53) Well, you are a part of a multi-generational homeschooling family.
 
So, will you begin our time by taking us back to that initial decision that you and your wife made to home educate your children?
 
Steve Lambert: (1:54 - 3:31) Sure, I'd love to. We made that decision back in 1981. I'm sure probably you and many of your listeners were not even born in 1981. But my wife came to me and she said, "So, hypothetically, what would you think if…” and my response was something like, "That cannot possibly be legal."
 
Because at that point, we knew no one who homeschooled. We never met a homeschooler.
 
I don't, you know, it was just completely foreign to my understanding. But I began to pray about it.
 
And as I did, I felt like the Lord said, "You're accountable for how you raise your children."
 
And I thought, well, if I'm accountable, then I ought to have some idea of how they're being raised.
 
Because, frankly, in a classroom, 95% of their lives are spent there in the classroom.
 
And they get home on the activity bus at 5:15 and eat dinner and go up and do their homework.
 
And that's the end of the day. And so, I thought, alright, maybe that's a good plan.
 
Now, parenthetically, let me add that it wasn't until a couple of years later, I felt like the Lord spoke to me and said, "And your children are accountable for how they turn out," which was profoundly important to me at the time.
 
Because we've all known great families who produce train wrecks for kids.
 
And we've known some train wreck parents who produce great kids. But we're accountable for how we raise our kids.
 
And I thought, if I'm going to have to sit for the final exam before the Lord of Heaven, I'd like to at least have some input in some part and at least know how they were raised. So, that was beginning in 1981.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:32 - 3:43) That is incredible, because you had no idea.
 
I'm even getting goosebumps just thinking now of where your family is at from that decision.
 
And could you catch us up to speed? How many children do you have?
 
Steve Lambert: (3:44 - 4:25) We had two daughters. We kind of left that in the Lord's hand. And that's what we ended up with. And my wife would have loved to have more, but we ended up with two daughters.
 
And between them, they have six daughters and one grandson. So, we have seven grandkids.
 
Several of them are through homeschooling now, college or career. The youngest at this point is six.
 
So, they're third-generation homeschoolers, which I think speaks to the validity of the homeschooling option for many people.
You know it's worked successfully when your children want to homeschool their children rather than running as far away from homeschooling as they could possibly get.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:27 - 4:38) Well, and even going back then to 1981, you were questioning at that point, is this even legal?
 
So, catch us up. At that time, were there any legalities that you were up against?
 
Steve Lambert: (4:40 - 8:42) Then, like now, it really does depend on the state where you reside.
 
And Missouri has always been fairly homeschool-friendly. That said, within about a year after we began, our oldest daughter had been in public school in K-1 and had been in a private Christian school for one semester of second grade before we began the decision to homeschool.
 
And someone, presumably a family member I suspect, turned us into Family Services for Educational Neglect Child Abuse.
 
So, we had that dreaded knock at the door, and DFS came and had to inspect the children, make sure that they weren't bruised or harmed in any way, and then begin kind of the prosecutorial process against us.
 
But eventually they realized they really didn't have much say, so they turned the case over to the superintendent of schools.
 
And we happened to live in the same district where Jane and I had become high school sweethearts.
 
So, we hired an attorney, and we went and had a meeting with the superintendent of schools.
 
I often tell the story and describe him as being an older gentleman.
 
Now, in reality, compared to me today at age 73, he was probably only 60. He was a young fellow of about 60. But when you're 30, that seems pretty old.
 
And he had a couple of PhDs in education and administration, and he said, "You know, I strongly disagree with the choice you've made," but unfortunately, we had had our daughter tested using standardized testing just prior to that, and he compared her test scores after a year of homeschooling with her test scores when she had been in his public school classrooms, and she had improved significantly in every subject area.
 
So, he said, "I'm not going to cause you any problems, but I still think you're making a serious mistake." And the footnote to that story was lived out less than a year later when my phone rang, and it was the superintendent of schools.
 
And he said, "Mr. Lambert, can I speak with you frankly?" And I thought, oh boy, here we go. He said, "I don't know if you're aware of this, but we're having some problems in public education."
 
And I said, "No, not, I can't believe that. Really, doctor?"
 
And he goes, "No, we really are. Test scores are declining. Parents are unhappy. Faculties are unhappy. Administrations are unhappy. Students are unhappy. And I put together a blue-ribbon panel of educational experts for six weeks this summer to discuss how can we reface and reimagine education in our district. And you seem to have a very unique perspective on education, Mr. Lambert. Would you consider being a part of that panel?"
 
And I said, "I would."
 
And so, I went to the first meeting. They all introduced themselves and they all had lots and lots and lots of letters after their name.
 
One was the director of curriculum development, another the director of elementary testing, another the director of high school counseling.
 
And finally, I introduced myself and said, "Hi, I'm Stephen Lambert. I'm a homeschool dad."
And every head in the room turned to look at me sitting in the back because up until that point, as far as I know, none of those men and women had ever seen a homeschooler and lived to tell about it.
 
So, they began the journey. The first night of the discussion and the person in charge of the summer series said, "You know, we can all make a long list of things that are wrong with public education, but let's not start there. Let's start on a positive note as we explore this difficult topic. Number one, responsibility for educating children rests with the state."
 
And I raised my hand and I said, "That's not right."
 
And he said, "What do you mean that's not right?"
 
And I said, "No, the responsibility for raising and educating children rests with their parents and only insofar as they choose to delegate some or all of their authority to you, does the state have anything to say about it?"
 
And he said, "Let's take a brief recess." So, it's probably just as well that I didn't tell him that God told me that because that would have made his head explode completely.
 
But anyway, that was 40 years ago. So, lots of water under the bridge since then in public education, I'm sorry to say has not gotten better, but instead it's gotten worse.
 
Laura Dugger: (8:44 - 9:07) Well, and I think within that, you've even brought up some questions that people have about homeschooling families when you first were talking about the standardized tests.
 
So, do you get these questions? A lot of times, do your children have any friends?
 
Did they grow up socialized or how did they compare to their peers?
 
Those types of things that there may be an underlying myth.
 
Steve Lambert: (9:09 - 11:20) Oh, for sure. Those are the common questions.
I was so ignorant of homeschooling in 1981 that I didn't even notice. I didn't even know the word socialization.
 
I was too ignorant to even know that, but I did know friendship.
 
And in fact, I prayed and I asked the Lord, I said, "How are my kids going to have friends if they're homeschooled?"
 
And as you and some of your listeners may understand, I felt like the Lord spoke to me, not audibly, but in a sense that I clearly understood his heart.
 
And he said, "Do you want friends for your children?"
 
And I said, "Yes, Lord, of course I do more than anything."
 
And he said, "And so friends come from being in the midst of people." And I went, yes.
 
And then I paused and I could sense him kind of waiting on me. And I said, "Don't they?"
 
And I felt like the Lord said, "No, if you want friends for your children, ask me. I'm the author of friendship."
 
And he reminded me of David and Jonathan, for example.
 
He said, in my imagination, at least he said, "This very night, I can hear the prayers of tens of thousands of people around the earth who are surrounded by people, but who are contemplating suicide this very night because they're so lonely. Friends don't come from being in large groups. Friends come from heaven, ask me."
 
And so, that became a prayer. And neither of our children, none of our grandchildren have ever lacked for friends, lots of friends, close and intimate friends through sports, through music, through their church connections.
 
And it really has turned out to be true that friendship, whether you're an adult, a child, or a teen, if you're lacking friends in your life right now, getting involved in more and more people and more and more busyness isn't necessarily the answer.
 
Just stop and ask the Lord, "Lord, I'm lonely. I need some friends in my life. Would you bring me some?"
 
And our daughter's first close friend, after I prayed that prayer was a number of months later.
 
It was a little girl who had immigrated all the way from South Africa.
 
Her father had immigrated to the United States after becoming a believer to attend a Bible college and then came to Kansas City to attend a seminary.
 
And his daughter became my daughter's best friend, but she came from halfway around the globe.
 
And since then, there've been so many that we couldn't count them all.
 
Laura Dugger: (11:22 - 11:49) Wow. Steve, that is such a powerful and encouraging parenting tip, really just in every phase that we know where to turn and that God is the one who actually has the power to make these prayers answered.
 
So, thank you for sharing that. What would you say are some wonderful aspects of your lifestyle that were not available to families who were not home educating their children?
 
Steve Lambert: (11:50 - 14:20) You get to see your kids come to life, to discover who they are and why they were made and to watch them learn to read and to watch them explore and discover God's amazing creation in the world around them.
 
You can travel with your kids. If you're homeschooling, you can take them wherever you go and you can have school in the car or school in the park or school at the lake.
 
My kids, instead of reading about some of the national parks and reading about some of the great museums in America, we went and we saw them firsthand and in the process we got to see them begin to blossom and figure out who they were and why they were created.
 
We're seeing with all that's happening today, a struggle that really so much boils down to children and teenagers and young adults having absolutely no idea who they are and they're questioning everything from their gender to their faith, to philosophy, to finances, to all those kinds of ecological issues.
 
They really have no idea who they are and it's because in the classroom, nobody ever teaches them.
 
You know, it says in Luke 6:40, "that a student is not greater than his teacher, but when he is fully trained, a student will be like his teacher."
 
Discipleship is really about teaching and if you're not disciplining your children, somebody is.
 
And in a public-school classroom, the wisdom of Dr. Luke suggests that your children will grow up to be just like their teachers and that's exactly what we're seeing in today's culture.
 
So, if you want to have some input, if you want to see your children blossom, I mean, there's nothing more exciting than seeing your children learn to read for the first time and it's not that difficult.
 
I mean, I often tell parents if you were trapped on a desert island, just you and your child, could you teach them to read?
 
Well, sure you could. You take a stick and you make the letter A in the sand and you'd say, this is an A and then this is a B and this is the number two and this is the number three.
 
There's nothing more rewarding at the end of life. And I can say this at age 73, I can say this without any reservation.
 
The single most important thing you can do is to trust your life to Jesus.
 
The second most important thing you can do is find somebody who's like-minded and marry them and make that marriage work through thick and through thin.
 
And the third most important thing you'll ever do is raising your children and watching them become the men and women God created and take their place in a dying culture.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:42) And you have years of wisdom journeying through being a homeschooling dad.
 
And so, again, I would love to hear more about your journey. So, if we go back to 1981, I'm assuming that all of the curriculum was not available that we have available today.
 
And so, how did you and your wife practically live this out?
 
Steve Lambert: (14:44 - 22:14) Well, you're right, Laura. There wasn't any of the curriculum, which in many respects was a blessing.
 
To be honest, there's so much material out there today. It's a little overwhelming.
 
If you go to some of the larger homeschool conventions, you can find as many as seven or 800 vendors there, each telling why their particular curriculum is the one that you ought to choose.
 
But back then there were no choices. And in fact, we contacted a couple of Christian curriculum publishers and asked to buy their materials.
 
And they said, "No, we can't sell you because that would upset our Christian school customers because they had the exclusive right to this material."
 
And so, we began with a old set of world books and a stack of children's reading books.
 
And I think we did go to the yard sale, and we found an American history book that was published, I think in 1943. And so, it was somewhat incomplete because it didn't explain who won World War II.
 
It just kind of ended in the middle of the war, but we began that journey.
 
And what we discovered was that God consistently brought us the tools, the resources, and the people that our children needed.
 
I would come home on certain days and I'd find Jane kind of crying in her bedroom and the girls crying in their bedroom.
 
And because they were, we were trying to replicate school at home. And that's completely the wrong direction.
 
Well, it turns out we didn't want school at home. We wanted homeschooling, which is an entirely different proposition.
 
And so, on that journey, Jane began to pray. And she said, "Lord, this is not what I had in mind for our children. I did not imagine that we would be fighting and arguing over. You will do your homework. I won't. You can't make me. Yes, I can. How can I teach my children?"
 
And he said, "Why don't you read to them?" And she said, "Well, I do read to them, but how can I teach them?"
 
And he said, "Why don't you read to them?" She said, "No, no, I understand. I love to read to them, but how do I teach them?"
 
And he said, "Why don't you read to them?" And so, after the third time, they began focusing more on reading aloud.
 
And that just naturally led to the entire world around us. It doesn't really matter what you're reading.
 
God gave educators and parents a secret weapon, and it's called curiosity.
 
And so, if you can engage that curiosity and you read them a story, it doesn't matter what three bears, and suddenly they want to know more about bears.
 
And how does this hibernation thing work and where do they live? And do we have any near our home?
 
And can you find bears? And what's the difference between a black bear and a grizzly bear? And how long do they live? And what do they eat?
 
And suddenly you become the guide rather than the opposing force.
 
Suddenly you begin to sit on the same side of the desk with your students and you go on a learning journey together, because particularly in those early years up to middle school, really the only lessons, the lesson that you really need to teach children is to fall in love with learning.
 
If they learn that you're home free, because they will self-direct and self-educate right on through high school, graduate school, they'll be lifelong learners.
 
But if you reduce education to nothing more than carrots and sticks and dangling promises and threats, they will quickly learn that learning is not fun.
 
And we just need to get through this as quickly as we can so that we can get on with life and the things that are truly important.
 
And if you doubt that, I often tell parents who are contemplating homeschooling, if you doubt that, just look in the mirror, go back and just think about, for example, your fifth grade social studies exam.
 
Tell me who the Norman Conqueror was. When did the Norman Conquest take place? How did that change European history?
 
And you'll say, wow, I remember. I've heard of the Norman Conqueror, the Norman Conquest, but honestly, I don't remember it yet.
 
Why not? Because honestly, I just learned it long enough to take the test. And then I forgot. And your kids are just like you. Many attribute Einstein with the saying that doing the same thing the same way and expecting some sort of a different result is insane.
 
So, it stands to reason if you teach your kids the same way you were taught to memorize names and dates and highlight pages and books for Friday's quiz, they'll end up with the same results.
 
They won't particularly be interested in learning. They won't remember 99% of all the things that you checked off your checklist that you covered with the children, but they don't remember any of it.
 
So, through reading, that opened the door for the girls to begin to ask questions.
 
And suddenly, like I said, instead of being in that tug of war, where as a parent or a teacher, you're trying to force children to memorize and regurgitate long enough to take a test, you suddenly become a resource person and you take them to the library and you take them to the natural history museum and you take them to the art gallery and you take them on nature hikes in the woods.
 
And one question always begets ten more. I remember that when my oldest daughter, her firstborn was about two or three and she was getting ready for bed and in the bathtub and she said, "Mama, can I ask you a question?"
 
And my daughter said, "No." She said, "Please, mama, just one question."
 
She said, "No, honey, you've already had your 472 questions for today. Mama's exhausted. Finish your bath. Let's go to bed. You can ask a question tomorrow."
 
She said, "Please, mama, please. Just one more question." She said, "All right, one more question. And then it's bedtime."
 
She goes, "Okay. So, like, how does electricity work, mom?"
 
So, that curiosity that God gave those children is the spark that makes homeschooling, not only a joy, but makes it infinitely doable.
 
Whether you dropped out of high school or whether you have a doctorate in education, if you can keep that curiosity alive, your kids are going to be great.
 
And let me add one other thought. We live in a world, the dean of a medical school, school of medicine at a university told me not too long ago, he said, "Do you realize that the body of knowledge of the human body doubles every year?"
 
We learned more in 2022 about the human body than we had learned in all of history through 2021. And he said, we get the best and the brightest, the top one tenth of 1% who come here to medical school.
 
And there's no way they can possibly keep up with the amount of new knowledge that's being developed.
 
And if you ask someone who has a doctorate in any subject, the most tempting question to ask is, so you must know pretty much everything there is to know about that.
 
And if they're even remotely honest, the first thing they'll say to you is, "Oh no, no, no, no. The farther we explore, the deeper we get, the more we realize we haven't even scratched the surface. There's so much we don't understand. The more we learn, the more we realize how much we yet have to learn."
 
And so, that's an infinite loop of getting children to begin to manage their own education. We've said for years, you know, he got the best education money could buy, or they gave him the best education.
 
You can't give a child an education. They're education resistant.
 
The child has to learn to want to know, to be hungry and thirsty to know more about the world that God created around them and how it works.
 
And homeschooling is a wonderful vehicle to make a lifetime learning out of your son or your daughter.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:15 - 28:23) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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The more I learn about homeschooling, the more encouragement I've heard from homeschooling parents, they will talk about there is always a learning gap no matter how you were educated.
 
And so, I love how you're addressing that with lifelong curiosity that we will continue learning our whole life.
 
But you also mentioned this word, if parents are considering homeschooling, you said it's so doable.
 
And when you're talking about Jane hearing from the Lord, read to your children, I find that so encouraging.
 
That's my favorite activity to do with our girls. That was the impetus for your family launching Five in a Row.
 
Is that right?
 
Steve Lambert: (28:24 - 32:17) That is right. Over a period of time, Jane certainly did math mechanics in a math workbook, and she used some specific structured approach to phonics to teach reading.
 
But other than that, it was largely an open palette in which reading helped direct the course of education.
 
And that became something that many of her homeschool friends as the years went by found enviable.
 
They said, "You know, how does that work?" And she said, "Well, you just read aloud to your children, and then there's opportunities in an illustrated book to talk about the illustrations, the perspective, vanishing point, type of colors, the difference between watercolor and gouache, complementary colors on the color wheel, history, where did our story take place, what's it like, where is it on the map, what do people eat there?"
 
And they said, “Yeah, we don't get that.” So, she began to just really as kind of a love gift for a few girlfriends, began to write some lesson plans to go with some popular children's books.
 
And one thing led to another, and that was in 1994. So, this is our 29th year in publication, and I think Five in a Row has won pretty much every award that's out there, from Reader's Awards, Magazine Awards.
 
It's more than 100,000 families, 600,000 children have used Five in a Row in the last 29 years, and virtually no advertising.
 
It's almost exclusively by word of mouth, from a veteran homeschool mom pulling aside a young mom who just spent $1,300 on a massive stack of curriculum and is completely overwhelmed just three weeks into September, to say, you know what, we tried that, and we tried this, and we tried this other program, and we spent a lot of money.
 
And then an older mom told me about Five in a Row , let me show you how it works.
 
And suddenly that changes everything for so many of these young moms.
 
Most of the problems that new homeschoolers are facing simply are not issues at all.
And the crazy part is that there are some things they ought to be worrying about, but they don't know enough yet to worry about the correct areas.
 
But both the obvious and the more subtle areas, God has answers.
 
If he's invited you to go on the homeschool journey, he has something amazing in mind for your family.
 
There are very few born homeschoolers, very few 15- or 16-year-old adolescent young women tell their school counselor, "You know what, I'd like to spend my life living in a two-income world on a single income and stay locked up with little people all day long without any peer support and have my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law think I'm crazy."
 
That's not on most young women's radars, but it begins, for most families, the same way it began for our family.
 
Hypothetically, honey, what would you think if, as the finger of God, the same God that said, let the waters be parted, the one that said, Lazarus, come forth, the one that said, let there be light, says, "Why don't you homeschool your kids?"
 
And so, you become what we often call accidental homeschoolers.
 
It suddenly occurs to you something that you swore you would never, ever do.
 
But the good news is the one who invited you is faithful. Love is a powerful motivator.
 
We all have stuff, and God has tried to make us deal with our stuff for years, and we've been resistant in many cases.
 
So, he invites us to the covenant of marriage so that we'll have a living witness to remind us of our stuff.
 
Honey, why do you always wait to the last minute? Honey, why do you get so upset?
 
And if we're still stubborn, then he invites us to have children so that we have several living witnesses.
 
But if we remain stiff-necked, finally he invites us to homeschool with children.
And this way we have a house full of living witnesses all day long that say, "Mama, how come this and why do you do that?"
 
And suddenly we begin to grow in ways we never thought possible through the medium of homeschooling. It strengthens marriages.
 
It grows us up in Christ. It causes us to deal with our stuff.
 
It's amazing what it does for our children.
 
Laura Dugger: (32:18 - 32:44) It does seem like progressive sanctification, how the Lord has built that in within the family.
 
And I just appreciate how you've gone before us. And so, if someone's feeling nudged in this direction, can you paint a picture, even using Five in a Row curriculum, what kind of prep would that require for the homeschooling parent?
 
And what kind of schedule would their day look like?
 
Steve Lambert: (32:46 - 39:39) Homeschooling is essentially tutorial education, and that's always been the realm of kings and the super wealthy who hired an individual tutor for their children.
 
Because of homeschooling, our children can have a tutor. And tutorial education is so inherently efficient that even if you're terrible at it, your kids are going to do pretty darn well.
So, when we start out, we're tempted to emulate the classroom. So, we think, well, my daughter's six.
 
She was going to go into first grade, so we need to start at 7:45 in the morning and we need to go until 3:45 in the afternoon with 20 minutes for lunch.
 
Nothing could be further from the truth. You can work with a kindergarten or first grader; 90 minutes a day is probably overkill.
 
So, it's something that anybody can do in their schedule, at least in those early years.
And it works best when it works for you and for your children.
 
If your kiddo is a late-morning sleeper, trust me, they're not going to be at their best at 7:45.
Don't let them sleep until 9:30. That's okay. You'll realize, for example, when you have teenagers, that they don't come to life until sometime after 11:00 p.m.
 
That's when they want to come into your bedroom and ask you important life questions when you're struggling to try to get to sleep.
 
So, first of all, you work with your children's schedule to some degree.
 
You work with the schedule that works for you. And you work where it works for you. If you're sick or if you're dealing with morning sickness and pregnancy, homeschool's going to happen in the bed today, kids.
 
Come on, gather around. We're going to read a story.
 
If it's a nice day, homeschooling is going to happen at the park today.
 
We're going to go on a nature hike. We're going to look at trees and wildlife and streams and rocks and waters.
 
And we're going to learn to take our paints with us.
 
And we're going to learn to paint the sky the way the illustrator did in our story this week that we're reading in Five in a Row.
 
When Jane began, she actually would take the girls to a cemetery nearby where everything was beautifully mowed and there were beautiful trees and lakes.
 
So, Five in a Row is built around the concept of reading a classic children's book, which Jane has selected thoughtfully and curated.
 
And you read it for five days in a row.
 
And so, on the first day, you're going to read the story aloud.
 
And the children just want to know how did the story ended, what happened?
 
A very surface, cursory reading of the story, really thinking only about the plot.
 
But, you know, as you go back and watch a movie the second or the third time or read a book sometimes or play the second or third time, you discover there's a whole lot more beneath the surface.
 
So, the first day they look at, on Mondays they do social studies.
 
So, they look at the setting of the story. Where did it take place?
 
How did people live in the 17th century? How did people live today in Japan or Australia?
 
How did people live along the Ohio River in the 1800s? What sort of foods did they eat?
What was their language like? Let's find it on a map.
 
Let's learn more about it and maybe plan to cook a meal from that region or that period of history later in the week for the family.
 
And you can make that as complex as you want.
 
You can have the children make shopping lists and invitations and invite Grandma and Grandpa and help cook the meal and learn liquid and dry measure and cups and quarts and all of that and put a towel over their arm and serve the meal to Grandma and Grandpa and tell them about what they learned about Spain or Italy or France or Canada this week.
 
So, now you've read the story and you've learned something about what's going on in the story.
 
So, Tuesday, we go back and we read it a second time.
 
This time we look at language arts, so new vocabulary words that came up in our story this week, new creative writing techniques that maybe there was a cliffhanger that made us want to turn the page and read and see what was next or maybe the author was really great at asking questions or writing dialogue or opening sentences that create curiosity.
 
And so, we learned some of those techniques, and we can try them ourselves.
 
And even a four- or five-year-old can dictate while Mom writes down their story, and they can illustrate it later and share it with Dad.
 
And then on Wednesday, we look at the art. So, what did the artist teach us? What medium did they use?
 
Was this charcoal? Was it pen and ink? Was it watercolor or gouache? Was it oils or pastels?
 
How did they draw the water? Look, they drew reflections on the water. It's not just blue paper, is it?
 
You can see the same colors in the water that were on the shore on the opposite side.
 
You know what, kids? Let's get out your colored pencils or your crayons or your pastels.
 
Let's try drawing water more realistically the way the illustrator taught us in our story today.
 
And maybe learn something about famous artists who had similar styles of Degas or Renoir or Van Gogh or whoever.
 
Thursday, we do applied mathematics, which is not the same as math.
 
You're going to be doing math for 15 to 30 minutes every day in a sequential approach.
 
But this is about learning, you know, the difference between a square and a rectangle.
 
Well, they have four sides, but what's the difference? They're not all equal on the rectangle, are they?
 
We're going to learn, like I said, how many pints in a quart, how many quarts in a gallon.
 
And then on Fridays, we do science lessons. So, there's lots of opportunities in every children's book to learn more about why does the sky look blue?
 
Why is the grass green? Why do some things float when you put them in the water and some things sink?
 
And all of a sudden, you're at the kitchen sink with a stopper in it.
 
You fill it with water, and you've gotten a penny and a cork and a birthday candle and whatever is in the kitchen junk drawer.
 
And suddenly, the kids are learning about buoyancy, and they're testing things, and they're predicting their answers, learning more about the world of science and creation.
 
So, typical day, long story short, for a beginning homeschooler with a kindergarten-aged child, probably going to be 15, 20 minutes maybe for phonics, 15 to 20 minutes for math, which at that level is simply learning the digits and haven't even thought about adding yet.
 
And then another 30 open-ended minutes, 30 minutes to 90 minutes for exploring Five in a Row or whatever it is that you're reading that day.
 
And for some days, that might turn into two hours.
 
In fact, there are some days where it turns into all the way to bedtime and continues over the next two days.
 
If you're learning about the solar system, and suddenly that catches their attention, and they want to go to the planetarium nearby, and they want to borrow their uncle's telescope, they eat, sleep, and drink astronomy for the next two or three days.
 
And frankly, that's not an interruption in the curriculum. That's the answer to a prayer.
 
God, please help my children grow curious. Help them nurture their love of learning. Cause them to want to learn.
 
And sooner or later, we're going to learn about astronomy anyway, but all too often, it's while the kids are fascinated by a bug that just crawled in the room.
 
And so, the smart mom puts astronomy on the shelf for the moment and learns about insects. Or vice versa.
 
You're trying to learn about insects, and they're staring out the window looking at moons still visible in the western sky that hasn't set yet.
 
So, helping children learn in the proper season is another key to making it all work. It's so flexible, and it's so simple.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:41 - 40:33) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast.
 
We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos.
 
We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.
 
Well, that flexibility sounds so freeing and attractive, and as you explain it, it just sounds like such a lovely educational experience.
 
And yet, I know a lot of homeschooling parents fear is that when their children graduate from the home, they wonder if they've done enough and how they'll perform out in, quote, the real world.
 
So, what was your experience as you and Jane launched your first child to college?
 
Steve Lambert: (40:35 - 46:24) Well, we actually sent our first one to college a week after she was 16. And to be honest, I wouldn't recommend that again for a variety of reasons.
 
She had a four-point-something or other GPA in college beginning at just barely 16. But being academically ready and being emotionally ready are two different things.
 
And so, probably, if for no other reason, we missed out on two more years of just exploring and learning together in home education.
 
But when she went, she was the top of her class pretty much in every subject.
 
Almost every study done of homeschool students by private industry and government suggests that students, on average, score about 20% higher if they were home-educated in every subject except math, where they're about the same, than their public school peers.
 
And it's now been more than 20 years since Harvard set out, and they kind of were one of the earliest ones to create full-time recruiters for homeschool students because universities and the marketplace are looking today for homeschoolers.
 
They realize that these kids are the leaders today. I saw a study of a small private university, I think in the Carolinas, if I recall, and they only had 3,000 students on campus, of which 90 were homeschooled, so 3% of the student body.
 
But of the 12 elected student leadership positions, student advisor to the dean, senior class president, whatever, 11 of the 12 were homeschool students.
 
So, even their peers recognized that these were the leaders in their community.
 
And we now live in a world where nobody seems to want to work. Everywhere you go, there's help-wanted signs.
 
And we've seen so many stories from friends and customers whose children were homeschooled who said it's a tremendous opportunity right now in the marketplace if you just show up and you're just semi-dedicated to actually doing the job.
 
I interviewed a guy, well, he actually came up to ask me questions after I spoke, in Chicago, as a matter of fact.
 
And he was the head of human resources for a large Fortune 50 company, and he said he had, I don't know, a quarter of a million employees.
 
And so, I asked him, I said, so this is in May, you're out recruiting, I assume.
 
And he says, “Yeah, I've got six recruiting teams crisscrossing American college campuses trying to recruit new employees.”
 
And I said, “So you're obviously looking for the highest-grade point average or highest graduating class position and competing for those students.”
 
He said, “No, not at all.” And I said, no? I said, “So IQ or SAT score?”
 
He goes, “No, none of that.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Let me tell you something.”
 
He said, “The average new hire costs us $70,000 to train. And this has been 15 years ago.
 
So, it's probably 170,000 a day. And no matter what your discipline, whether you're in sales, marketing, quality control, engineering, whatever, we're gonna spend the first year teaching you how we do it here, not how you learned it in college.
 
If we aren't successful in our recruiting, our company will go bankrupt. This is our largest single expense is personnel.”
 
And we have learned over the years that graduating class position or grade point average or SAT score IQ is totally irrelevant when it comes to determining who'll be successful in the company and who won't.
 
And I was a little taken aback and I said, “Well, if it's not any of those things, then you just throw darts at resumes?”
 
He goes, “No, no, no.” He said, “We can accurately identify these students in the most cases.” I said, “So what do you look for?” And he said, “Well, you're gonna laugh.” I said, “Maybe.” He said, “First and foremost, by far and away, the ability to get along and work well with others.”
 
He said, “If you can't, you're gonna get cross ways of your boss or another employee and either quit or get fired in the first six months.
 
The second is to be able to complete a job, see it through to completion and meet the deadline.
 
And number three, if you're really, really golden, the ability to work within the constraints of a budget.
 
Those are the things that are successful, whether you work for our company or whether you're an entrepreneur or whether you're a homemaker, whatever you do in life.”
 
So, with that in mind, I've spoken all over the country and encourage parents. These are things that we need to be working on. There are things that are not being worked on in the classroom.
 
So, look for opportunities to hand more of the education off to your students, let them plan what do I wanna study for the next two days, the next two weeks, the next two months?
 
Where am I gonna get the resources to discover that by the time they're in high school?
 
I'm gonna give you a budget to work with. There's $200, you can buy some resources, tools that you think would be useful in the process.
 
Where do we need to be in project management to start the process?
 
Where should we be by the end of week two? Where should we be by the end of the month?
 
These are the skills that employers are looking for and so many parents have told us that their kids have just rocketed in the marketplace.
 
My final question to this guy was, so are you finding bright young men and women who can do the job?
 
He goes, there's never been brighter, more thoroughly educated young men and women who can do the job.
 
He said, the problem is I can't find any who will do the job.
 
I can't find people who will do even four hours work for eight hours pay.
 
They wanna go to Starbucks, they wanna be on their cell phone, they wanna be on Facebook, they wanna be talking to their friends, taking care of their online banking, paying bills.
 
And so, character comes first. And if we teach our children their purpose and their place in this world, if we help them find and discover their giftedness and their aptitudes and invite them along those pathways and we increasingly turn more and more of that education over to them in the high school years where they begin to take responsibility for their own education, we're going to end up with not just capable but outstanding young men and women who can quickly take their place in our culture and rise to the very top because frankly, there's very little competition.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:26 - 46:36) Wow. Well, Steve, is there anything else that we haven't yet covered?
 
Any scriptures or stories to share that you wanna make sure we don't miss?
 
Steve Lambert: (46:37 - 50:16) The thing we want people to take away from all of that is not that the only way to raise your kids is to homeschool or that God doesn't approve of anything else.
 
The point is, listen to God and do what he said, but don't put your fingers in your ears because he often calls us to things that we really maybe didn't wanna hear and obedience is better than sacrifice.
 
One of my favorite stories, when our oldest daughter started to college, she went through placement counseling that summer and the placement counselor said, "You know, I don't think I've..." That was in 1991. He said, "I don't think I've ever had a student who was homeschooled."
 
So, that's pretty interesting. And she said, "Okay, great." And there were 30,000 students at this college and she was not only at that point, as far as we know, the only or first homeschooler, but she was also the youngest, having just turned 16 that in the middle of August.
 
And so, when she began, one of the prereq classes that every incoming freshman had to take was public speaking.
 
And she realized much to her horror that her public speaking teacher was the guy who had helped with her placement counseling earlier in the summer.
 
And she really didn't want anybody to know she'd been homeschooled, but she said there were returning GIs from Operation Desert Storm.
 
There were empty nest moms coming back to finish the degree. There were pre-med students. There were student athletes.
 
There were just every kind of student in that class because everybody had to take public speaking.
 
And he said, the very first day, the teacher said, "I'd like for everybody to give a six-minute speech on Monday. That's the best way to do this is just to jump in on whether or not you think we ought to be involved in nation building. Except for you, Ms. Lambert, and I'd like for you to give six-minute speech on what it was like to be homeschooled."
 
And she slunk down below her desk and tried to disappear into the floor.
 
And she said, "Dad, what am I gonna do?" I said, "Well, just get up and tell them."
 
So, she did. And she said, you know, as far as I can tell over the course of that semester, she said every single person in that class, whether they were 18 or 58, found me somewhere on the campus in the quadrangle at the library, the cafeteria, in the parking lot, and said in one way or another, their own words, "You're so lucky your parents cared enough about you to be involved in your education. I'm jealous. I'm envious. I wish my parents had been."
 
She said, but the one that killed me was a girl who was 18, had just graduated from a prestigious high school the previous May.
 
And she began to tell her story. And she said, "When I began high school four years ago, my goal was to become valedictorian of my graduating class. I've never been at a sleepover. I've never been to a, you know, skating party or, you know, movies. All I've done is study for four years. And she said, I was in AP classes all the way through and my GPA was like 4.7887. And there was this guy and his was 4.78779. And he and I competed every year in every class. And it came down to the final test and the final class and the final semester. And I beat him by two points."
 
And so, last May, she said, my dream came true.
 
And I stood on the football field and I gave the commencement address, the valedictorian address to 4,000 of my peers, their parents, civic leaders, laity, community leaders of faith. And both of my parents were too busy to attend.
 
She said, "I wish my parents cared and had been as involved in my education as yours were. You're very lucky."
 
And she said, "Dad, it just killed me to hear her story."
 
And I said, "I don't have any answers, honey, but our joy was raising you girls and seeing you become the people that God intended you to become."
 
Laura Dugger: (50:18 - 50:43) Wow, Steve, that is so powerful.
 
And what an incredible charge to leave each of us with to go and do likewise.
 
And as we wind down our time together, you are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Steve Lambert: (50:45 - 51:59) Read aloud, read often, read to your spouse, read to your kids.
 
Jane and I continue, we've been together now 57 years, and we still read aloud to one another every single day.
 
I read aloud to my kids still on occasion, my grandkids still, my daughters are in their 40s.
 
My grandkids, but that was the joy. And that's the thing that when all else fails, when your relationship is struggling, when your homeschool day is falling flat on its face, get a great book and snuggle together with your kids and read out loud. 
 
It's in that process that their imaginations are birthed, their angst is quieted, and disagreements between spouses can suddenly be pushed aside because suddenly you're facing sorrow and you have a sword in your hand or you're coming down the Mississippi River on a riverboat or whatever it is that you, it unlocks doors that sometimes we didn't even know were locked.
 
So, that's the Savvy Sauce that's worked for us. Read aloud, read often, and don't let a day go by that you don't read to your children, even when your kids are 18. And if you have little ones, read to the little ones and I guarantee you the high schoolers will come around and listen to every day.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:00 - 52:23) I love that so much. That is wonderful.
 
And I have very much appreciated your insights and wisdom that you shared with us today.
 
So, thank you for the legacy that you and Jane have been building for years.
 
Thank you for being a faithful and intentional father and husband.
 
And thank you so much, Steve, for being my guest.
 
Steve Lambert: (52:24 - 52:29) Laura, it's been my pleasure. I've appreciated the opportunity. Thank you for what you do.
 
God bless you.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:29 - 55:45) Thank you. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.
 
But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
 
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.
 
So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a Savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
 
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
 
Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
So, would you pray with me now?
 
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.
 
I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
 
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.
 
You get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
 
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started?
 
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.
 
The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
 
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John.
 
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
 
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.
 
We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.
 
Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.
 
You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

268_Savvy Business and Health & Wellness Tips and Journey to Overcoming Infertility with Laura Jean Bell

268. Savvy Business and Health & Wellness Tips and Journey to Overcoming Infertility with Laura Jean Bell
 
1 Corinthians 10:31 NIV "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."
 
Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. 
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Laura Jean Bell is a believer, storyteller, writer, wife to her high school sweetheart and mama to three miracle babies.
 
She is a published author of You Can Always Come Home by Laura Jean Bell, in addition to being a Business and Social Media Coach. 
 
Laura also overcame stage 3 endometriosis by taking the road less traveled and now she spends countless hours helping other women take that road with her! 
 
Connect with Laura on Instagram: @laura_jean_bell
 
Laura Jean Bell's Website
 
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
What are a handful of practical tips you can offer others, especially as it relates to digital marketing?
Will you share your research on Minerals: How do we even determine what minerals we need? 
Will you leave us with a few more social media tips?
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
 
Other Episodes Related to This Topic from The Savvy Sauce:
48 Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, and Coach, Megan Dahlman
33 Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan
68 Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan
70 Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright
76 Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
77 How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson
132 Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen
256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
266 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:10)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:25)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. 
 
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
 
Laura Jean Bell is my guest today, and she is a Jesus-loving author and also a business and social media coach. So, not only is she going to share some of her best savvy social media and business tips, but also the conversation takes a detour into health and wellness, and she has an abundance of wisdom to share there as well, even including practical tips that we can implement today for our own flourishing in health and well-being. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Laura.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (1:26 - 1:27)
Hi, thank you for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:28 - 1:34)
I'd love for you just to start us off by giving us a snapshot glimpse of your current life right now.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (1:35 - 2:27)
Oh, my goodness, my chaotic life. Actually, it's a sweet, beautiful thing, but I am a wife to my high school sweetheart. We have been married, this year will be 11 years, and we have three kiddos. Emmylou, who is six. She literally just turned six. My son Oaks, who is three, and my youngest is Lottie, and she just turned nine months. So, my life is very full. I own my business, I am a published author, and I have three very, very needy children, right? I'm in a season of life where I'm very, very, very needed, and that's a beautiful thing, but it can be a very overwhelming thing at times. So, that is a little snapshot about my day-in and day-out life.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:27 - 2:43)
That sums it up well. Gorgeous kid names, by the way. Oh, thank you. But I'd love to hear more about your business, too. Would you mind just explaining the work that you get to do as a digital marketer and online income mentor?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (2:44 - 4:58)
Sure. Okay, so, this has been such a fun journey for me, and just to maybe explain it in like a Reader's Digest version, because I think that there's so much on the internet right now that's like, make $5 million in four minutes. But what I do is actually help business owners. 
 
So, like the average woman who maybe is wanting to build an income or find her place online, that was where I started. That's where I began, like really helping those women be like, “Hey, I can be a business owner, too.” I can actually have like a mark and a place in this space, which I think is often really hard for women to like grasp, because we're so inundated with influencer culture. 
 
But as the business began to expand and grow, I really started to lean into how do I help business owners actually market their business and make it really profitable online? Because a lot of times there's business owners that have these great businesses, but they don't actually have the marketing piece to actually sell the thing that makes their business a business. And some of them have a brick and mortar, and they're brick and mortar as well, but they'd love to increase their income. 
 
How do you do that? You get online; you make sales online. And so, what I do is I teach female business entrepreneurs how to scale their business using Instagram. 
 
I do not focus on any other platforms. My main focus is Instagram and teaching them how to use their messaging to make sales consistently. And so, I help them figure out their messaging and then write it. 
 
Actually, I write content for a lot of my clients. And then I teach them consistency and speed so that their life isn't just consumed by the internet, which is like what all of us feel, right? Like, once you get on, you're like, how do I do this? 
 
And I have to create this, I have to edit this, I have to do that. Like, it becomes very overwhelming. And so, what I do is I just eliminate the overwhelm. 
 
I simplify it and I help entrepreneurs really find their messaging.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:59 - 5:15)
Wow, that's incredible. So, you clearly have a gift for communication and articulating different things. Is there anything you want to just give us a little peek into practical tips if somebody is running their own social media? 
 
Any tips you'd have for business owners?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (5:17 - 6:59)
I think that the biggest, the greatest understatement that's happening right now online is followers and views mean absolutely nothing. They are like the beginning of Instagram, the beginning of social media. It was all about like, how many friends do you have? 
 
And then it was how many followers do you have? And you know, how many views are you getting on your stories? And you get all these interactions on your reels. 
 
And like, while that is the mental game of social media, and that is the thing that everybody is going for, because it actually fuels this like dopamine hit in your brain. But the reality is, is that there are people with thousands upon thousands of followers that are making $0 on the internet. And what they need is the actual messaging that says, “Hey, this is how I serve this pain point, and give you the life you want.”
 
And so, the biggest thing is, if you have five people in one day that view your stories, and three of them actually buy from you, like, that's over 50%. So, you're looking at, while everybody is freaking out about the number, it really is about your messaging in order to convert to sales, you can have a bunch of eyes on you. But if you're not serving the people that are following you, and serving them towards a sale, it doesn't mean anything. 
 
So, don't focus on the numbers, focus on your messaging, focus on your brand, focus on what it is that you are serving your people with. And you will make money, you just will. It's how it works. 
 
So, I hope that answers your question. Well for you.
 
Laura Dugger: (6:59 - 7:26)
But yeah, I love it, because it's so unexpected, I would have never known. And I've also heard you encourage people to share their stories rather than just stating facts. And you share your own story, both online and in your book, You Can Always Come Home: Following the Breadcrumbs of Your Past to Find the Hope for Your Tomorrow. 
 
So, Laura, how can we all incorporate stories into our own work so that we can better serve others?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (7:28 - 8:59)
That's such a good question. And I think the biggest thing is, what story do you want people to know? What story is it that like, you really think like, you've been pricked, right, by the Holy Spirit, like, this is the story that I need you to tell. 
 
This is why you walked through this experience. This is why you're doing this thing. Because oftentimes, we can negate the things that we've walked through, and act as if like, those things didn't, weren't that big of a deal because you survived it, right? 
 
Like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't anything, it was a big deal, right? And so, what are the things that you actually feel are important, they keep showing up, they keep becoming the things that people are asking you about? And how do you tell that story to where somebody hears the messy middle, and then the beautiful resolve, the beautiful ending to that story, because there is, right, the beginning, the middle, and the end. 
 
And that's what makes stories so impactful. Facts tell, right? Like, anybody can tell you that, like, a carrot is orange. 
 
But like, if somebody tells you the story of how the carrot became orange, or how this, like, what the soil does to all of this, and how it adds these nutrients, doesn't that make you like, appreciate a carrot more, want to eat a carrot more, want to go buy the carrots more, right? And so, the same goes with our story, like, what is it that actually happened to create this specific result?
 
Laura Dugger: (9:00 - 9:11)
That's so good. Well, and speaking of stories, are you willing to walk us through a little bit of your own story with your health journey? Yeah, absolutely. 
 
Ask me anything.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (9:11 - 9:16)
I'm an open book. It might scare some people. I'm an open book about it.
 
Laura Dugger: (9:17 - 9:33)
I appreciate that. Yeah, just, you're clearly a very healthy woman. But I know you've had a whole past that you've walked. 
 
So, has health always been important to you? Or at what point of life did you start to make some changes because it wasn't working?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (9:35 - 14:24)
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. When I reflect on something like that. Um, you know, I grew up in a home, I always start with this, like, my mother was not a dieter. 
 
Like she didn't diet all the time. She wasn't always like, on some workout trend or not eating carbs or not doing this. Like it was never that. 
 
My mom is naturally like very, very, very thin. And so, like that wasn't a part of the conversation. My mom was always obsessed, though, with, like eating food that's good for you.
 
Like, and in the 90s, like that was really tricky, right? Because they were so many messages about like, what's good for you? What's not that is bad. 
 
Like there's all these things. And while our household, I say was probably much healthier than the average household in the 1990s and early 2000s. I don't think that I ever like cared about my health. 
 
I still ate the Hot Pockets and the Easy Mac and ramen noodles and every opportunity that my parents actually let us eat out like I was chowing down. So, when I reflect on like my years, like 0 to 18, all I cared about was just consumption. I was like, nobody could stop the amount of food that I could consume. 
 
I'm five foot eleven (5’ 11”). I was growing like crazy. You can ask my family like I could out eat anyone. 
 
It was kind of unbelievable. So, that part of my life, like, that was not an unhealthy thing. College is when things began for me. 
 
And when I went to college, I for most of my life, I was a competitive dancer. So, like, I was consuming but I was burning like it was like calories in versus calories out. I had no concept of that. 
 
I did not know how to read a nutrition label on the back of a box until I was like, well into college, like, literally remember learning how to do it in a college health class. So, I go to college. And I noticed that I started gaining weight, right? 
 
Like, I'm eating all the fast-food options that are in our student center. And then the cafeteria food. This isn't my mom's home cooked meals anymore. 
 
This isn't the mostly healthy option anymore. And I start gaining weight. So, when that happened, I started hearing other girls talk about what they were doing. 
 
Like, oh, well, you just eat less than exercise more. And like, I had no concept of like, what, what did that mean? Right? 
 
Like, do you just not eat like I love to eat, right. And so, what I started doing, I didn't know how to like lift weights or do anything. So, I started running, because I thought, okay, I have endurance, I danced forever, like, you have to have that endurance with that. 
 
So, like, I'll run. So, I start running. And I completely gave up meat. 
 
I was like, well, I can just eat. I thought meat somehow made you fat. I don't know. 
 
That was just some weird thing that I had in my head. And I stopped eating meat, and I ate less. So, like, I just kind of narrowed down what I was eating, and then ate less of it kind of thing. 
 
And that was when my health problems began, was when I began doing that. Which is really interesting, right? I was probably eating roughly like 1000 to 1200 calories a day, but I was running four to six miles a day. 
 
So, like, I was not fueling what I was burning. Although I was losing weight. So, like, calories in versus calories out, like the concept of like, just eat less than exercise more, it was working. 
 
I was 19. Like, I was young, I had a like, everything was working right, you know. But all of a sudden, my body was like, you're depriving me. 
 
And I'm not only being deprived of actual calories, I'm being deprived of nutrients. And what began to happen is it started to show up in my hormones, with my cycle, started breaking out in hormonal acne on my chin, I started having very short cycles. So, like, for any woman listening that maybe doesn't have a concept of this language, because oddly enough, so many women don't, and it's like about us. 
 
But like, a woman has a cycle, your period isn't your cycle, it's the full month that's your cycle. And I was instead of 28 days, I was having 18 day cycles. And the pain during my period was excruciating. 
 
It was so painful. And I'd never experienced that before. So, those were the things that began to show up. 
 
But I just kept going with what I was doing. And just thought I just had bad periods. I had family members that had bad periods, this just must be genetic. And I just have to live with it and pop ibuprofen every 18 days, right. So, that was kind of where it where it started.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:25 - 16:04)
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Midwest Food Bank who exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. 
 
Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.
 
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. 
 
The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce where the founder David Kieser shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. Was that the point that led to what you call your year of rebellion? Or did that come later?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (16:05 - 23:39)
No way that that was just the start of basically, roughly eight years of undiagnosed endometriosis. So, what started happening is in college, I would have these what I call episodes where I would be roughly like a day or two before my period would start. And I would have this unbelievable pain that would come over me. 
 
And I could feel it literally my lower abdomen, so much pressure, so much discomfort. Oftentimes, it would involve vomiting, passing out, so painful. To this day, I've had an unmedicated birth. 
 
And I'm here to tell you that the pain of pushing out an almost 10-pound baby, and that were roughly the same thing. It was unbelievable, excruciating pain. I would go to the doctor, they would not give me ultrasounds, they would not check anything, they would not even do my blood work, they did nothing. 
 
They would just say you have really painful periods, and we'll give you birth control. That was every year from 2010 until 2017. This was what was given to me. 
 
And so, in 2017, I was on my way to work, and I had one of those episodes. And I called the doctor, they bring me in, and I said, I want an ultrasound, like I will sit here all day, I need an ultrasound. And so, they did an ultrasound and found two cysts on one ovary, one on the other, and they were six and seven centimeters and six centimeters. 
 
I mean, it was just crazy, these large cysts. And they were like, you more than likely have endometriosis. This is, you know, they started explaining all the things. 
 
And fast forward, I ended up having two laparoscopies, which is the surgery to remove endometriosis in 10 months, the average woman can go 18 months between surgeries, and I had mine in 10 months. That's how reoccurring rapidly it was growing and spreading in my body. And I felt zero relief from the surgeries, which everyone promised, like, you'll feel amazing, you'll, you know, you'll get pregnant. I couldn't get pregnant. I was in so much pain, and I go through another cycle of it. 
 
And it's like, these doctors are like, yeah, you're probably just not going to be able to have children. We recommend you getting on birth control, or getting a hysterectomy, like, these are your options. And so, what I did is I went to see a fertility specialist, like anybody would do like, I'm not going to just stick with my OB. I'm going to see if I can actually have kids. And so, I see a fertility specialist, I go through multiple, multiple, multiple rounds of fertility treatments, and I wind up getting pregnant with my first daughter, Emilu. 
 
So, she is a product of folly stem stimulation and an IUI. And lots of trigger shots and lots of synthetic progesterone. I did all of it. 
 
And after my daughter was born a year postpartum, I got pregnant again, and I miscarried that baby. That baby was miscarried March of 2020, which is when everybody went crazy, right? 2020, like who has their 2020 story, right?
 
And so, my daughter was little, I mean, she was like 14 months old, when I had this miscarriage. And I remember watching, I watched this video, it was called The Pandemic. And a lot of people like didn't actually see it because it was taken off the internet for misinformation. 
 
And it was a woman that was explaining what was really happening with the pandemic, which is funny, because all of it's true now. But it was taken down like, she's crazy. This is a horrible pandemic, nothing was created in a lab, all of that. 
 
And I was like, I went to watch it again, because I thought this woman must be crazy. Like there's no way that this would actually happen. And I went to watch it again. 
 
And it was taken off the internet for misinformation. And this thought came over me, which is so bizarre now. Like, I know more about Kim and Kanye's divorce, than I know about what's happening with this pandemic. 
 
Yet, Kim and Kanye's divorce information is there for me to see. And they're not letting me look at this. Why? 
 
And it was this very strange thing that came over me. But everything that came out that was like, don't take this medicine to help COVID, don't do this, actually, like saturated fats are bad for you, like all of these different things that were popping up. And people were saying, it's misinformation. 
 
I was like, I'm going to research that. I'm going to research that. I'm going to research that the fertility doctor that did my DNC after I had a miscarriage. They actually said to me, you will never again, have another pregnancy. 
 
But if you do, you will not have a normal child. That is what they discovered and decided about me, according to the results from that DNC, what happened to that baby, why that baby wasn't developing, why I lost that baby. It literally like, and him saying that to me, I was like, why? 
 
And it was almost like he couldn't explain to me the reasons why, but that I just never would. And this is what I needed to do next in order to stay healthy and keep endometriosis away. And so, I went on this journey for one year and I committed to one year where I was like, everything that is misinformation, I'm going to research it. 
 
Everything that I have been told is good for me or is the best choice for me because of my condition. I'm going to actually look at what they're giving to me and like, why? Um, every time somebody told me like endometriosis is incurable. 
 
Okay. But like, what is endometriosis? Nobody actually explained to me what it was. 
 
They just told me I had it and that it caused what it caused, not actually what caused it. And so, when I went on this journey, I began to discover and unfold so many things that absolutely blew my mind, broke my heart, made me very angry because as I began to implement the things that I discovered, I healed and I got better. And all of a sudden I don't have endometriosis anymore. 
 
All of a sudden I'm pregnant with a very healthy baby. All of a sudden, like everything is better. How is it that the things that the providers that were working with me, what they were doing for me was keeping me sick. 
 
And as I branched out and did all the things that they said was absolutely crazy. I had one of them literally looking at me and he was holding topical progesterone and he was like, this stuff, like with all due respect to this functional doctor that talked to you, this stuff doesn't work. And unfortunately they sell things to people like you, young women who are desperate for answers. 
 
They sell this stuff to you to make so much money and it's not going to do anything for you. Guess what? Topical progesterone changed my life. 
 
So, anyways, that is kind of a little bit of like my year of rebellion and what happened. I'm happy to go into details for you, but I feel like I'm getting long winded with it.
 
Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 24:13)
No, that's incredible. I do want to do a deep dive into it because I think it's such a blessing after you've spent over a year researching this and then living this for multiple years. I think it can be such a benefit to each of us. 
 
And I'm recalling this story specifically about toxins where people were saying that means nothing. But in that fertility clinic, somebody told you, there was a sign that said their employees were not allowed to wear certain toxins because quote, it could inhibit the fertility process.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (24:14 - 24:14)
Yes.
 
Laura Dugger: (24:15 - 24:16)
Can you elaborate on that?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (24:17 - 26:18)
Yes. You know, what's really funny is I went to the health department to get some paperwork and stuff for my kids the other day. And, um, there was a sign up that was like any and all women that are getting mammograms, if you're getting a mammogram, do not wear perfume or deodorant for a mammogram because of the radiation mixed with the toxins. 
 
I asked the woman that was sitting there, I was like, why did they say that? And she explained it to me and I was like, oh, okay. So, why aren't you telling us to stop wearing it altogether? 
 
Um, but when I went to the fertility clinic, I was going through fertility. I was like an avid Daisy by Mark Jacobs perfume where I don't know. I still love the way that smells. 
 
It's the yummiest, but I would wear it all the time. And I went in and the woman that was there, she was like, you smell so good. And I was like, it's Daisy by Mark Jacobs. 
 
She was like, I wish I could wear perfume to work. I'm not allowed to. And I was like, why not?
 
And she was like, oh, because like the people that are working on women who are going through fertility, getting their IU eyes. So, it's like when they're actually inseminating you, like we, it could inhibit the fertility process. She was like, have you ever noticed we don't have any candles? 
 
Like we're not allowed to bring candles here, all of that. And I was like, why aren't you telling me to stop doing that? Is that not interesting to anyone? 
 
Like why is no one paying attention to the fact that like, I'm walking in here with perfume on to get an IU eye that's going to fail because it inhibits the, for the fertility process, like the one that works. Uh, guess what? I wasn't wearing any perfume. 
 
So, it's like, it's one of those things that like, when I heard that, I thought, well, what is it that messes with the fertility process? Like what, what is that? And this was honestly, when I heard this information, this was before my year of rebellion. 
 
So, like, I remember her telling me that and I kind of stopped wearing it to the sessions because I thought, well, I don't want to get this messed up anyways.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:18 - 26:29)
So, yeah, pretty wild. That's incredible. And okay. 
 
So, from that year of rebellion, what other tweaks did you make small and large?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (26:30 - 29:38)
Oh man. Um, some big things like I removed toxins from my home. So, that looked like removing Clorox wipes and, um, detergents that are just like your average detergents that you buy from the store. 
 
Um, I stopped burning candles and started burning, not burning, but diffusing essential oils. Um, from there, what I really started focusing on was my protein intake. Um, I spent so many years vegan, vegetarian, refusing meat, refusing proteins. 
 
And those were the years that things were really bad for me. When I started to reincorporate animal proteins and quality animal fats, my cycles went from 18 days to 29 days. I started having painless periods. 
 
My hair started growing more. Um, my nails wouldn't break. Um, my, even my vision got better.
 
And so, what was really interesting is I started learning that if you are protein deficient, you will be progesterone deficient and progesterone is the pregnancy hormone. This is the hormone you have to have in order to conceive. I always tell it like this progesterone equals pro gestation. 
 
So, if you don't have enough progesterone, your baby cannot survive the first 12 weeks. That's what the baby lives on before the placenta is formed. You have to have progesterone in order to balance out the estrogen progesterone balance. 
 
If it's imbalanced, that's where you have pain, mood swings, acne, discomfort, the growth of endometriosis and PCOS. These things are really important. Progesterone is so important for your mental health. 
 
If you are mentally low, like think about your progesterone levels. Think about how much you're sleeping. If you're sleeping in complete darkness, that raises your levels. 
 
If you eat at least 80 grams of protein a day, it raises your progesterone levels. These are two really basic things. Like it's really simple. 
 
It's not complicated. So, that was probably the biggest thing for me was learning how to eat because for years we're told, at least all of my life, like fat is bad. They would rather you eat hydrogenated oils and I can't believe it's not better than actually eat grass-fed butter. 
 
Why? Why is it bad for you? When you really uncover the work that was done in the studies that were given for explaining that fat is bad, it was all paid for. 
 
It was all paid for by the medical industry, by big pharma in order to push this agenda. They said that it was bad for our hearts, but get this, in the years after they told everyone that it was horrible for heart health, heart disease skyrocketed as people began to eat less animal protein and less animal fats. So, anyways, just to give like a little, some of the things that I discovered and changed, that's the main thing, which really and truly is like not that complicated. 
 
Wow.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:39 - 29:45)
Yes. Focusing on what you're intaking. What about cortisol? What did you learn about that?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (29:46 - 32:21)
So, cortisol is like your get up and get crap done hormone. Okay. And when you are living in a state of fight or flight, where basically you get up in the morning, I'm going to give you an example of what a lot of women do. 
 
And they end up having issues with cortisol and eventually stop producing it altogether. So, a woman gets up in the morning, she wakes up, she drinks a cup of coffee with no food on her stomach. And she goes and does a 30-minute cardio workout. 
 
And then she comes in and she eats maybe like a protein bar, like a little, like some type of granola bar, another cup of coffee. She goes to work. She works all day or she's home with her kids all day. 
 
And by the time she's got her work done, or she's taking care of her children and fed her children, doing all of these things, you're going all day long. All of a sudden it's three o'clock and you haven't eaten anything and you're in a bad mood and you're really tired. And so, maybe you go get a snack and another cup of coffee. 
 
And then by the time you get to dinner, it's the only meal that you've really sat down and had for the day. Okay. So, what has that done to you? 
 
Your body believes because your body and your brain don't know the difference between a bear chasing you or you running strictly on caffeine and doing too much cardio. And so, all of a sudden she is moody. She's exhausted. 
 
She's running on all this tension. Her hair starts to fall out. She gets acne. 
 
Her skin's doing some weird stuff. Her nails are kind of brittle. All this, you're always moody.
 
You're always in a bad mood. It's because your cortisol is doing this. It's like, and it's like on, it's like high. 
 
And sometimes when you keep doing this, you actually can get a lot of energy. And then all of a sudden your adrenals, because your adrenals are what produced cortisol. Your adrenals are like, actually we're done. 
 
Like stop running from the bear. Just die. Like literally it like can't do anything for you anymore.
 
And you go into what a lot of people call, or doctors call adrenal failure, which is where your body doesn't even produce cortisol anymore. And so, that is when you can't get out of bed in the morning. You're so exhausted. 
 
Um, you can't lose weight. You, no matter what you do, you're winded. You're overwhelmed.
 
Um, but you don't have energy for anything. You have so much brain fog, um, so much bloat and inflammation. It's because your body's not producing cortisol. 
 
So, you don't have the energy to get anything done. Um, does that answer your question?
 
Laura Dugger: (32:21 - 32:45)
Yeah, this is so interesting because I feel like there's a whole health movement right now. So, there's a lot of buzz about all of this and people, I think, especially after 2020 people are waking up. So, love gathering perspectives as you're talking about inflammation then too, with cortisol, have you researched much about grounding, like actually barefoot on the earth? 
 
Yes, girl. Are you kidding me? Absolutely.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (32:46 - 35:48)
Um, so, something that was really interesting, I went to see a specialist, um, when I was really healing my adrenals, because a fun fact for you, like when your adrenals are just in overload, if you are experiencing high cortisol, you're constantly up here. Guess what? Your body's going to throw out the window fertility because what in the world is safe about a body that is running from a bear? 
 
Like, no, your body is preserving you because it's not safe for you to host a life. So, I was seeing a doctor who was really helping me. Um, it's called muscle testing. 
 
So, they test each organ according to how your muscles respond. And, um, I was in adrenal failure. And at this point I'd already had my second child and was experiencing a lot of inflammation. 
 
I couldn't lose weight. I was like so tired. I was irritable. 
 
And, um, I did this long session with him and I was in St. Pete, Florida doing this session. And he said, you have an assignment for the rest of the day. And I was like, okay. 
 
And he was like, you need to go to the beach, like go somewhere and actually lay your entire body down on the sand. He was like, I know, like nobody wants to get sandy, but like lay on the sand. And I was like, tell me why. 
 
And he was like, if you lay on the sand, it's your body touching the earth. And God gave you the earth as a battery pack. And this battery pack literally is going to shoot energy back into your body that your body has been deprived of. 
 
And like, there's, he started going into all the studies for it, but he was like, don't you ever know the difference? Like, and how you feel when you've been cooped up at work all day. And then like, you go on a vacation to the beach and you sit on the beach and you put your feet in moving water. 
 
He was like, it's literal living water. This living water moves and it heals and rejuvenates what happens to water that stagnant. It gets disgusting. Yeah. 
 
It turns to mold, right? It actually goes toxic, but that moving water is healing. It's living. 
 
It's rejuvenating. It's very biblical, right? And then you have the earth that God gave you is this battery pack. 
 
There are people, this is going to sound crazy, but there are who have done LSD, like psychedelic drugs that talk about the vibrations of the earth. When they're on this drug, they are seeing the way. And they talk about there's a magnetic field. 
 
They like, you can read, you can watch videos. You can see studies of people who did LSD, who literally can see the energy that the ground gives you. I mean, it's crazy, but isn't it like the Lord, right? 
 
To give us what we need in nature, like magic.
 
Laura Dugger: (35:49 - 37:17)
Yes. Where we're going back to the way that he designed, whether that's eating whole foods or getting outside in his beautiful nature. There's countless benefits, but I think it's just amazing that taking your shoes off and being on the earth, even for 30 seconds is beneficial. 
 
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Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you. 
 
You had also talked about previously with your health journey, being deficient in minerals, I think you said as well, or just not getting the nutrients. So, are there any minerals that we all are likely lacking or any that you would recommend from your research and experience?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (37:18 - 39:36)
Yeah, I would, I mean, every mineral. The most underrated mineral right now is potassium. The amount of women who are potassium deficient and need more potassium is unreal. 
 
But magnesium is huge. You have to have magnesium for your body to even naturally produce vitamin D. Like vitamin D is a hormone, but you have to have magnesium for your body to produce vitamin D. 
 
How many have gone to the doctor and they're like, you are very low in vitamin D, right? Well, get in the sunshine more, take the supplement, but like, where's your magnesium, right? And so, magnesium, potassium, potassium is huge, especially for your mental health. 
 
This is really going to help you in like balancing out, like you're removing the brain fog, really. Sodium, which everyone's like, eat less sodium. You need less sodium chloride. 
 
You need less table salt. You don't need less salt. Your body has salt. 
 
Your body needs salt. Think about what your t-shirt looks like when you drenched in sweat. It dries and what does it have? 
 
Salt. It's salty, right? When you're sweaty, it's salty. 
 
And it's because your body actually needs sodium. It has to have it. And so, stop using white table salt, like iodized salt. 
 
Go get some quality Celtic salt, like really simple, but put that in your water. Like first thing in the morning, drink some water with some Celtic salt, like get those electrolytes back in your system. So, potassium, magnesium, sodium, and calcium, like your body needs calcium and you can get calcium in multiple ways, um, multiple ways, but calcium is going to support your bones. 
 
It's going to help support your muscles. Cause if you are working those muscles, your body needs the strength. And so, calcium is going to give you that balance as well. 
 
It's fantastic. So, all of them, but like, I think the make sure you're getting magnesium, just like if you just need to start somewhere, just get a magnesium supplement. I recommend magnesium glycinate because it's kind of the overall magnesium.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:37 - 39:44)
So, it's great. Okay. And you said you can get calcium multiple places. 
 
Do you take that as a supplement or where do you get your calcium?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (39:45 - 41:04)
So, I actually do adrenal cocktails. So, that is, um, coconut water, orange juice and Celtic salt. That's it. 
 
And just do a little adrenal cocktail in the morning. And in the afternoon, make sure that you have had protein before you drink it, because if you're anything like me, it'll spike your blood sugar. Um, if you're not balanced, so, you need to be balanced. 
 
Um, I've always been very sensitive to things like orange juice, apple juice. Like as a kid, I would feel really bad in the mornings and I just thought breakfast made my stomach hurt. And actually it was like, my blood sugar was dysregulated from the cup of orange juice and the cinnamon toast that my mom gave me. 
 
Right. So, like, it's like butter, sugar, white flour, orange juice, like eat this for a nutrient dense breakfast. And I like would feel horrible after because my blood sugar was off. 
 
So, um, make sure you get some protein on your stomach and drink the adrenal cocktail. Like my parents, my parents swear by it. My dad's like, this has changed my life. 
 
I'm your mom's going to make me one of those little cocktail things that you tell, I tell her about all the time. It's hilarious. And I'm like, it's just juice and coconut water, but it's got the minerals. 
 
That's why it makes you feel so good. It's because it's giving your body the nutrients that it needs.
 
Laura Dugger: (41:05 - 41:17)
That's incredible. Are there any other biohacks, health hacks, even the role of light that it plays or movement or anything else that you want to recommend with your extensive research?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (41:18 - 43:19)
Um, I'll give two things. Uh, number one: if you can get up as the sun is rising or a little bit before and actually go outside and stare at the red light. The actual, morning sunrise, and then watch the sunset. If you can get your eyeballs on just like the surroundings where that red light is hitting, that will do wonders for the production of melatonin in your gut. 
 
It's going to help you sleep. It's going to help you sleep really good at night, which is going to help you with your progesterone levels. So, that is great. 
 
Number two is weightlifting. If you can incorporate at least two days a week of heavy weightlifting into your routine, it's going to do wonders. And the reason I say that is that estrogen, toxic estrogen, not the estrogen that's good for you that you need to like make you female, but like the toxic estrogens you're getting from perfumes and food and plastics and all the things it stores itself in fat, in visceral fat. 
 
And so, the best way to burn fat and build muscle is by lifting weights. And so, if you want to keep toxic estrogens out of your body, step number one, get rid of fat, like fight hard for like, I mean, I'm still postpartum. I'm still burning off like weight that I gained in pregnancy. 
 
But the number one thing that motivates me is not like, I want to look better, which of course I want to look better. Of course I want to fit back into my clothes, like all of that. But like Laura toxic estrogens store themselves in this fat. 
 
And so, what, when you are lifting weights, you are burning fat and building muscle to support your family and not be burdened by the imbalance of your hormones. Like right there. That is the reason why. 
 
So, lift weights. It's so good for you. It protects you from so many other diseases, but like that alone, women do not understand the power of that. 
 
It's going to do wonders for you.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:20 - 43:47)
Okay. This is so helpful. And then I'm thinking it's beneficial to have a specific plan. 
 
So, as we think about where you talked about laundry detergents or limiting toxins, will you share a few of your personal favorite products? And then also what are some recommended things we can actually eat? Like when you walk through a healthy breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, what would you share?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (43:49 - 45:22)
Okay. So, some favorite products. I started out using Thieves household concentrate. 
 
Young Living sells it. And it's like $26 for a bottle of the concentrate. That concentrate can be household cleaner. 
 
So, like it can clean any surface in your home. It can be used as dishwasher detergent. So, we use thieves instead of like pods in our, in our dishwasher. 
 
And I'm here to tell you, I think Young Living just came out with dishwasher pods, like Thieves dishwasher pods. We don't use it. We still use the concentrate. 
 
But we use that. You can use it in your laundry so you can wash your clothes in it. And so, we alternate with that. 
 
Sometimes we use that. Sometimes we use Molly's Suds. Those are like little pods. 
 
You can get them on Amazon. It's a non-toxic option. You can also wash your clothes and like baking soda and vinegar, like just be old school. 
 
Your clothes won't smell like vinegar. Don't worry. Like the vinegar gets rid of the odor. 
 
That's like how our grandparents did it. So, those are some really simple hacks. Just because that's inexpensive. 
 
Like you can make 16, I think it's 16 bottles of household concentrate, like spray with the one bottle. So, like you buy the one bottle, it takes a cap full and then you fill the rest of the way up with water and it cleans anything. It's fantastic. 
 
It smells great. You'll love it. What else did you ask me?
 
Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:28)
Food? Yes, food. Like a sample menu. Okay.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (45:28 - 47:02)
Something that I love to eat. I love to just really enjoy my food. Like if you're on the go, like I'll give it an example. 
 
If you're on the go, I recommend like boil some eggs. Okay. Take like three boiled eggs. 
 
Get like a chopstick to get your protein and like an RX bar. RX bars are going to have the carbs, but it's also going to have more protein. You'll get six grams of protein per egg and then about 10 grams in your chopstick. 
 
So, it's like 18 grams of the eggs plus 10 is 28 grams plus the RX bar. You're going to get over 30 grams of protein and then you'll have some carbs. I do recommend getting a little bit more carbs, but if you're on the go and you're in a hurry and you need to feel balanced, that's a good start. 
 
If you're home, like I love doing scrambled eggs and air frying sweet potatoes, peppers, and onions. It is delicious. Just trust me and season it with garlic powder and salt. 
 
It's so simple. Some avocado oil and literally just allow, like think about all the carbs, all the protein, everything. The best hack though, that I learned with eggs is do two regular, like the full egg and then do two egg whites and then add cottage cheese to your eggs, blend it in a blender and then cook them and just thank me later. 
 
So, you're getting extra protein, it's creamier, it's so good. And then eat that with sweet potatoes and peppers and it's primo.
 
Laura Dugger: (47:02 - 47:12)
Okay. This sounds amazing. I love it. 
 
And this is my post recording meal, the RX bar. I love it on busy days.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (47:13 - 48:27)
Yes. For lunch, I mean lunch, I honestly, I keep like ground beef patties just ready. And my air fryer stays on. I literally use it for every meal. 
 
Sometimes if I don't have it ready, I just pat it out, put it in the air fryer, it cooks. Do that with a bunch of veggies, get lots of fruit, mainly berries, like berries, apples, and just adding that in is your carb. You can do, if you need a snack, I highly recommend doing Greek yogurt and mixing in your favorite protein powder and mixing that up. 
 
It's so good. The Greek yogurt gives you the carbs, the fats and protein, and then you add the extra protein in it. And so, it's excellent. 
 
For dinner, our favorite meal, we eat a lot of grass-fed beef because we buy cow every year. So, we'll do bowls and we'll do like a bed of rice, sweet potatoes, peppers and onions, and then ground beef. And then we drizzle the Japanese barbecue sauce over it. 
 
And we call it Japanese barbecue bowls. It's literally just like a bunch of vegetables and meat with sauce, but it's really good. 
 
So, there's some meal ideas for you.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:28 - 48:49)
That's incredible. Thank you for just rattling those off. We've got a plan now. 
 
And I love how this conversation took a turn toward health. So, before we leave that section, any other healthy rhythms or best practices or ways you've simplified your life that you would recommend? Just sleep.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (48:49 - 49:34)
I know that sounds ridiculous, but people aren't sleeping and go to bed without your phone. You're going to be okay. You really are. 
 
If your kids can go to bed without their phones, without a phone in their face, you can do it too. It's not the best way to turn your brain off. So, go to bed. 
 
When you lay in a dark room without any blue light, you actually are helping your nervous system reset itself. And it needs a moment to rest and digest. So, get in the bed without a blue light and close your eyes and go to sleep. 
 
You can do it, but it's so simple. And try to get eight to 10 hours of sleep a night. Truly, it's so important.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:35 - 49:54)
That's so good. And you're all about simplifying. You even help people simplify their digital marketing. 
 
So, as we turn it back to business, I know you can't give away all of your secrets, but will you share just a few more business or social media tips with all of us?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (49:55 - 50:43)
Oh, man. I think the number one thing that I would tell anyone who's wanting to do anything in the online space is don't spread yourself across every platform. It's not worth your time. 
 
And the more you hone in on one thing, the more of that thing you will sell, like plain and simple. And you will make way more money. You will spend way less time working on it. 
 
You will enhance the lives of the people that choose to work with you. That is what you will gain. 
 
If you simplify your offers, number one, sell less. Just sell more of one thing and stop spreading yourself thin across all the platforms. It's just too much work.
 
Laura Dugger: (50:43 - 51:03)
That's wise counsel. And will you also tell us, I mean, I'm amazed as I'm thinking of all this research that you've done. You're living a healthy lifestyle. 
 
You're raising young children, consulting with others as their coach. Also, you wrote a book. Can you share a little bit about that?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (51:03 - 52:50)
I wrote my book. I actually have it right next to me because I was like, if somebody is going to ask you what this book is about, it's a book of short stories. And it sounds really simple, but it's a book of short stories that really draws you back to who you are in the Lord and understanding your place, like your identity in Christ, your belonging, fighting against fear and really coming home to who God created you to be. 
 
And so, this book is a compilation of short stories of my own life where these things were very disrupted. My identity, like a total identity crisis, like not just having so much fear, learning how to come back to who God made me to be, but really writing out the moments of when I was living in that season and the people that helped me kind of find my way out and the things that God really showed me in that journey. And so, have it right here. 
 
You Can Always Come Home: Following the Breadcrumbs of Your Past to Find the Hope for Your Tomorrow. It's really what my heart was and I learned a lot when I left my hometown and I moved to small town, North Alabama. And although this is where my dad is from, this was not where I was raised. 
 
And I walked into a total identity crisis when I moved here. And I write a lot about that and about the moments when I was living in that season. How the Lord would reveal to me, like, remember when this happened, or remember when this happened and how you handled it or what that person said to you. And I wrote those stories in here. 
 
And so, the goal of this book is for anybody who reads it to know that God's on your side and everything's going to be okay.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:51 - 53:06)
Thank you for sharing that, Laura. And we'll certainly add a link for that in the show notes for today's episode, but also what links can we give for your social media? And then if somebody wants to reach out and work with you, what would that process look like?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (53:07 - 53:47)
Yeah, so, my Instagram is Laura_Jean_Bell and Jean is J-E-A-N. And if you want to work with me or reach out, you can email me at laurabellwrites@gmail.com, or you can literally go to my Instagram account and click the link in my bio where I explain what I do. And it offers an ability to hop on a call with me where we can talk together and see if we would be a good fit to work together. 
 
So, those are the ways that you can contact me. I have a website, laurabell.co, and you can contact me through that as well.
 
Laura Dugger: (53:48 - 54:07)
Wonderful. Thank you for adding that. We will make sure it's accessible for everyone. 
 
And Laura, you may be familiar with why we're called The Savvy Sauce, which is because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, my final question for you today, Laura, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Laura Jean Bell: (54:09 - 56:38)
For life in general? You got it. Okay. 
 
Well, I have two of them. And so, one of them is kind of silly and one of them is not. So, I'm going to go with the non-silly one. 
 
Oh, share both. Yes. But I will say like this, there was this line that I heard, and I don't know who like trademarked this line, but it was very simple. 
 
It said, “You are the CEO of your life.” And it was very simple, but it changed everything for me because for so much of my life, like if your knee jerk reaction to things not going your way is to blame someone else, you're not living as the CEO of your life. And I have spent a lot of my life, like when something doesn't go my way, I look for a person to blame instead of looking at myself and my own flaws. Being able to see that, “Hey, sometimes Laura, you're to blame and like, it's okay.”
 
You're the CEO of your life and you get to see what you did wrong, see how you messed up, see how you needed to shift something and then move on. And I think so many of us, whether we want to believe it or not, we can fall victim to that and live our lives so attached to this idea that somebody else is always to blame. Somebody else did this to me. 
 
Sometimes things do happen to you that are not your fault. Sometimes you are a victim of horrible crimes and horrible things happening to you. But the question is, what are you going to do about it? 
 
Who are you going to talk to about it? Are you going to go to the Lord and ask Him what it's actually supposed to look like for your life moving on from this place? Are you going to stay in a mindset that's small and traumatized, small and victimized? 
 
Or are you going to say, “I'm the CEO of my life and I'm going to link arms with the Holy Spirit and keep moving forward.” And so, that was a huge thing for me to learn. And I feel like it's kind of been my savvy sauce in the last probably year, because 2024 was a year of a lot of things happening to me that weren't my fault. 
 
And finally, one day I thought, you know, Laura, you can sulk in this, but it's not going to change your circumstance. What's going to change your circumstance is you saying, “I'm in charge of my life and I'm going to pick up the pieces of this and I'm going to ask God what to do with it.” And so, anyways, you're the CEO of your life and it's time to take charge of that. 
 
So, yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (56:38 - 56:42)
I love it. And now you've got to share your silly one as well. You've left us curious.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (56:43 - 57:01)
What is The Savvy Sauce? Let me just tell all of my, all of my geriatric millennials out there, you need to put castor oil on your face. Okay. 
 
Just know that like castor oil, you need to look like a glazed donut when you go to bed and your skin is going to be, your skin will thank you. Just trust me.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:02 - 57:26)
That's incredible. I was so grateful you shared. And Laura, I can see why clients are so drawn to work with you. 
 
It is so delightful to have conversations with you. You are gifted in so many different arenas. And I think what really stands out is your generosity and just your willingness to share all of this with us. 
 
So, thank you so much for being my delightful guest today.
 
Laura Jean Bell: (57:26 - 57:29)
Oh, it's such a gift talking to you. Thank you for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:30 - 1:01:12)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news. 
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. 
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. 
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin. 
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. 
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him. 
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started. 
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. 
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. 
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

267_Apologetics with Ray Comfort

267. Apologetics with Ray Comfort
 
Acts 4:20 NKJV "For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Ray Comfort is a best selling author - having written over 100 books, including his most recent one, entitled Fifty Years of Open-Air Preaching: Everything I've Learned. He is a cohost of an award-winning television show that airs in 190 countries.
 
Living Waters Website
Living Waters YouTube Channel
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What are some memorable encounters you've had over the years as an open-air preacher?
What fears do you notice holding believers back from evangelizing?
What's an easy win or next step we can take today so that the inspiration from this conversation turns into action?
 
Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
School Series (Legal) Gospel Sharing During School Hours with Joel Penton
Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore
Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce Facebook, Instagram or Our Website 
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:18)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 
 
I'm delighted with this opportunity to interview my special guest for today, Mr. Ray Comfort. Ray is a best-selling author of over 100 books, one of which we'll be discussing today, about 50 years of open-air preaching.
 
He's also a co-host of an award-winning television show that airs in over 190 countries around the world. So, I'm pleased to welcome Ray Comfort and get to hear all of his stories and inspiration. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ray.
 
Ray Comfort: (1:19 - 1:27)
Well, thank you for having me. Can you explain Savvy Sauce to me? Absolutely.
 
That means knowledge, knowledge poured out.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:27 - 1:46)
Well, savvy is synonymous with practical or insight. And my husband having a background in Chick-fil-A, people always talk about the Chick-fil-A sauce or the secret sauce. And so, when we were creating this podcast, that just became the favorite question that I wanted to ask every guest.
 
Ray Comfort: (1:47 - 1:50)
Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00)
It's truly my pleasure. And I just love how everybody has a unique testimony. So, would you be willing to share your salvation story with us?
 
Ray Comfort: (2:01 - 4:47)
Yeah, sure. I came from a non-Christian background. My mother was Jewish.
 
My dad was Gentile. And when my mom met my dad, it caused problems in the family. So, they brought me up with no Christian instruction or any instruction whatsoever.
 
Until at the age of 10, an aunt taught me the Lord's Prayer, which I prayed every night for 10 years. I believed in God. And at the age of about 20, 21, I had an epiphany, just a revelation that I was part of the ultimate statistic.
 
10 out of 10 die. And I thought, this is ridiculous. We're all waiting around to die.
 
And you can have fun while you're dying. You can play sports or save money. And I'd achieved everything I wanted to achieve by the age of 21.
 
I had my own business and my own house, my own wife. I'd made one child by then. Everything material I could want.
 
And I remember one night just going to sleep, or my wife had gone to sleep just before I went to sleep. I looked at my wife, we're newly married, and I just wept at the thought of her dying. And I just cried out, why?
 
Why is this thing called death? It's like there's an elephant in the room stomping on all humanity and nobody talks about it. And so, I cried out, why?
 
I didn't know I was praying. I didn't know God heard. And six months later, I was on a surfing trip, and there was a young Christian guy there, and he had a Bible, and I remember reading parts of it.
 
And my eyes fell upon, you've heard it said, by them of old you shall not commit adultery. And I thought, well, if there is a heaven, I'll make it there because I've never committed adultery. But then I read the words of Jesus, but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.
 
And it was like an arrow went into my chest. And I thought, whoa, boy, am I undone. Because like every red-blooded male, I was filled with unlawful sexual desire and eyes full of adultery, as scripture says.
 
And that's when I understood the cross. I realized I had sinned. Jesus bore my sin.
 
And we broke the law, the commandments. Jesus paid the fine. And that meant God could forgive my sins, grant me everlasting life.
 
And I cannot express to you the joy, it was unspeakable, that's why I can't express it, that I had and the knowledge my sins were forgiven. It was like an explosion of gratitude filled my heart. And for the last 50 years, it's been the high-octane fuel that's driven me to live for God's will and honor.
 
So everywhere I go and everything I do is centered around sharing the gospel with unsaved people. And every Christian should be like that. I call myself a normal, biblical Christian.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:48 - 4:59)
I love that. Well, and something that you speak about and that you live out is open-air preaching. And I just want to read a piece from the dedication page, if that's okay.
 
Ray Comfort: (5:01 - 5:03)
So, make sure you speak in a New Zealand accent.
 
Laura Dugger: (5:03 - 5:28)
Oh, goodness. I won't even attempt. But you define open-air preaching saying, going somewhere I don't want to go, to preach a message I don't want to preach, to people who don't want to hear it, but the love of Christ compels me.
 
And so, Ray, what was your journey to becoming an open-air preacher?
 
Ray Comfort: (5:30 - 9:18)
Well, I'll go back to when I was 16. I was in high school, and the teacher had the bright idea to have class speeches. And I was horrified at the thought of class speeches.
 
Have to get up and make a speech? Because I was kind of introverted, and the day came when I got caught. I used to stay away when they had class speeches, but my name was left on the roster, and it was last.
 
And the teacher got me up, and I thought I'll speak on the subject of surfing because I just loved surfing. And I dried up in the middle of that speech. My heart just went thump, thump, thump, thump till I could hardly hear.
 
It was like a drum beating, and I couldn't think straight. And I sat down humiliated in front of my peers at the age of 16, which is huge. And I vowed never, ever to speak in public again.
 
But I got born again. I became a new person in Christ. And I had a message that I could not be quiet about.
 
And I remember one day I was on a bus going to the city, and I remember looking at the people that were sitting on the bus, and I thought most of them probably not Christians. They die. They're going to Hell.
 
I've found everlasting life. I should stand up and speak to them. And I thought the bus would stop, and a whole lot of them would throw me off.
 
And I thought, what do I do? And I remember praying, oh, God, if there's just some way where I could speak in public to people knowing there wasn't. And two weeks later, they legalized public speaking in our city through just strange circumstances.
 
And I thought, whoa, what an answer to prayer. Horrors. And I remember avoiding any thought of going into that speaker's corner for the next two weeks until I opened a newspaper.
 
Remember what newspapers were? I opened a newspaper and had a picture of an elderly lady with a Bible in her hand, and underneath it had the Bible lady sharing her Christian testimony in speaker's corner. And I felt so ashamed that here was an elderly lady, and here I was hiding like Jonah.
 
So, I went in, took a deep breath, and preached the gospel to a crowd that was standing or sitting there. And I went back about 3,000 times and commuted to it for about 12 years, almost daily for 12 years. So, I broke the sound barrier, and I've been doing it ever since.
 
And I'll tell you why I do it, because the average church wouldn't reach as many people in a year as a good open-air preacher can reach in 30 minutes. And you just have to learn how to draw a crowd and what to say, and you've got to have the will to say it. And if you're a Christian and you've found everlasting life, you should be saying with the disciples, I cannot but speak that which I've seen and heard.
 
And I'm so glad the disciples didn't stay in the upper room. They found everlasting life. God granted eternal life.
 
They didn't carpet out the room, put in pipe music, with a little notice outside their door, tonight, 7 o'clock, all welcome. They didn't do that, because they knew fish don't jump into the boat. That's not normal.
 
If you're a fisher of men, you've got to go where the fish are. So, they went open-air and preached. And as you read the book of Acts, that's all they did.
 
They preached open air at peril of their lives. And so if we want to walk in the steps of Jesus, in the steps of the disciples, in the steps of Spurgeon, Wesley, Moody, Whitfield, others down through the ages, then we've got to open our mouths and lift up our voice like a trumpet and show these people their transgression. And so, I am thrilled that you want to do an interview on this book, because I've often said the church has as much excitement about evangelism as you and I have about having a root canal.
 
It's not exciting. But we all have fears, and we can learn to overcome them.
 
Laura Dugger: (9:18 - 9:38)
Ray, you make already such a compelling argument for why we as Christians are called to evangelize and deliver the good news and specifically calling it as open-air preachers. So, will you still share a few more arguments or reasons to try and help people understand why this is of utmost importance?
 
Ray Comfort: (9:39 - 10:47)
Yes, we have a moral obligation. We're like doctors with a cure to cancer. We must speak, as the disciples said.
 
And if you've got fear, let me ask you a question. Could you jump into a pond that had big chunks of ice in it? It was so cold that you would die if you stayed in it for three minutes.
 
And most people say, no, no, you wouldn't get me jumping into that pond for anything. Let's say a four-year-old boy fell into that pond and his feet couldn't reach the bottom, and he began to drown. You wouldn't hesitate.
 
You'd just jump in. You wouldn't worry about how cold it was. Grab that kid and pull him out.
 
And the waters of personal evangelism are freezing. Ice cold. We're not excited about it.
 
Last thing we ever want to do is get involved in something like this. But love cannot but do something. Love couldn't stand there and watch a child drown.
 
And love cannot sit on a pew while sinners sink into Hell. So, if you've got problems with fear, don't pray for less fear. Pray for more love because that's the problem.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:02)
Ray, I'm curious. You seem so confident and comfortable with this, but clearly you've been doing it, like you said, for many years. So, was there fear at the beginning for you?
 
And is there still fear when you do this today?
 
Ray Comfort: (11:03 - 18:09)
No, there wasn't fear at the beginning. Fear is here. Terror is here.
 
Mortification is here. I was up there somewhere. So, the first time I did it was terrifying.
 
Second time wasn't quite so terrifying. But after all these years, I still battle fear, always. Every person I got a witness to on a one-to-one basis looks like Goliath.
 
It goes from a Zacchaeus to a Goliath in a split second. I think a witness to that guy, he's anti-Christian. I can see it by the look on his jawline.
 
He hates Christians. Can't wait to get his fingers around the neck of any Christian because I've got overripe imagination. I remember once I was driving my car and I saw a dead dog on the road about 100 yards ahead of me and it was such a sad sight.
 
I could see its head was all twisted back and I could see its ears. It was a German shepherd. And as I got up to it, it was someone's jacket that had fallen off his bike.
 
That's all. And I just had an overripe imagination. And that's exactly what it's like when it comes to fear.
 
I have an imagination that some guy's going to kill me if I share the gospel with him. So, I've learned to not listen when fear speaks. I've learned to think about the fate of the person rather than myself.
 
I mean, think of a firefighter. He arrives at a fire, and he looks up and he has to climb a 60-foot ladder. At the top of the ladder is a woman and two children leaning out of a window and the place is on fire.
 
It's the fifth story. And they're screaming because they're going to be burned alive in about three minutes. So, he's got to climb that ladder amidst the screaming, amidst the smoke and the sirens.
 
He could drop one of those kids. He could drop that woman. And so, would he rather be at home with his wife and kids watching an old black-and-white movie?
 
Of course. Is he terrified? Absolutely.
 
But he doesn't listen to his fears because of this one fact. He's not thinking of himself. He's thinking of that woman and her terrible fate and those kids.
 
And that's the key to overcoming fear. When I get my fears, I don't listen because I'm not thinking of myself and my silly little fears, my imagination. I'm thinking of this person and their terrible fate, that they die in their sins.
 
Lake of fire. Damned. If you think death is fearful on this side, wait till the other side.
 
It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And the apostle Paul said, Wherefore, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. So, if you've got a wrong image of God, it's kind of like a Santa Claus sitting in a cloud.
 
You won't have a terror in your heart. You won't fear God enough to obey him. You know, Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I tell you?”
 
And so, if we are submitted to Christ, if we yield to him, if he's our Lord, when he says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” We go. He didn't say to stay. Think of what he said.
 
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. I've actually studied the original Greek words of the word all, every, and go. Go actually means in the original, I think it's passe.
 
The original Greek, it actually means go. Into all the world and all the world. That word all means all in the original Greek.
 
And to every creature means every creature. So, when Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”, in the original Greek, he actually was saying, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” So, we're so fortunate to have Greek lexicons and things that we can go back and see what Jesus was actually saying.
 
And so, it's very simple. We shouldn't stay. We shouldn't want to fill our churches with people when they come in, where to go out and get them.
 
And one of the most effective ways is with open air preaching. And so, we teach people how to get a crowd. Now, when I first started speaking, I would begin open air preaching with an anecdote, something very gripping.
 
And it was always difficult because if I didn't live up to that, I didn't get a crowd. And so, for about four or five or six years, it was very difficult. And then I started asking trivia and giving away money.
 
And I've been doing that for 30, 40 years, where you say to a crowd, I've got some trivia questions, giving away money. And a preacher giving away money is like water running uphill. It's kind of unnatural, so it gets people's attention.
 
So, I'm going to ask trivia questions. I've got money here to give away. When you get it right. What's the capital of France? Anyone know? 
 
And someone says, “Paris?” That's right.
 
Here you are. What's the capital of China? Beijing or whatever it is.
 
Give out a dollar. Say, “What's your name?” Fred.
 
That's right. And you give Fred a dollar and people laugh, and they gather around and it's just a great way to get rapport with a crowd. And while you're doing that, you look around to see who's got confidence.
 
This guy over here, or Fred, laughs when I say, “Here's a dollar, and he yells out answers.” I say, “Fred, you want to go for $5?” He says, “Sure.”
 
So, jump up on the box. So, we've got a box for the hecklers. So, you think you're a good person?
 
He says, “Yeah, I'm a really good person.” So, if you are, you get $5. If you're not, give me $5 anyway.
 
Just being a good sport. So, we're going to go through the Ten Commandments to see how you're going to do on Judgment Day and if you are a good person. Let me take him through the commandments as Jesus did with the rich young ruler.
 
How many lies have you told? Ever stole something? Ever used God's name in vain?
 
Ever looked at women with lust? And Fred says, “Yeah, I've done all those.” So, Fred, you've just told me you're a lying thief, a blasphemer, and an adulterer at heart.
 
And you have to face God on Judgment Day. You're going to be innocent or guilty? He says, “Guilty.”
 
Heaven or Hell? Hell. Does that concern you?
 
Yeah, sure it does. And the crowd's listening. It's not some sweaty preacher pointing a finger at them.
 
They're just listening to the gospel. And so, it's a great way. And then you go into that Christ died for our sins, took our punishment.
 
And Fred, “Thanks for listening. I really appreciate this. Here's your dollar.”
 
I've got a book for you that I wrote. I hope you enjoy it. Nice to meet you.
 
He shook his hand. He's off. Anyone else, like any atheists here, never be intimidated by an atheist.
 
Atheism is the epitome of stupidity. It's just so dumb. Every time I meet an atheist, I ask him one question, and I've seen so many atheists backslide when they've heard this.
 
I say, “Do you really believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything? Puppies and kittens and flowers and seeds and the marvels of the human eye and the miracle of childbirth. All this happened because nothing created it. Do you really believe that?” 
 
They say, “Oh, no, I don't believe that. Oh, there was something in the beginning.”
 
I say, “Oh, it just wasn't God. Is that it?” Yeah, that's it.
 
It was something, but it wasn't God. Well, let's see if we can find out why you don't want it to be God. When did you last look at pornography?
 
I say, “Oh, it was last night. What do you think God thinks of that?” And you realize the issue isn't intellectual.
 
It's moral. They're running from God like Adam, hiding behind bushes. And so, you've just got to flush them out and then use the Ten Commandments to bring the knowledge of sin and address the conscience rather than the intellect.
 
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As you've done this, what has been your experience along the way? And would you even share a few stories of times that this has gone miraculously well and times that have been such a struggle?
 
Ray Comfort: (20:19 - 30:16)
It's always a struggle. But let me share the two great keys that I use when it comes to evangelism. I don't even like using the word evangelism because it scares Christians.
 
Apologetics. And that is this. I address the conscience, as Jesus did.
 
When you're in apologetics, and I believe in apologetics, we've got what's called the Evidence Study Bible, which is pregnant with apologetics. So, I believe in apologetics, but they have their place. Apologetics are like bait when you're fishing for men.
 
If you stay with bait, you're going to end up with fat, happy fish that get away. You've got to have a hook, and that hook is God's law. So, you bait the hook.
 
And so, it's important if you bait the hook with apologetics and address the intellect to realize this one fact. Romans 8:7 says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” What does that mean?
 
It means the carnal, natural mind of man is in a state of hostility towards God, particularly His law. It's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. And you can see this enmity by the fact that human beings lavished with life by God use His name as a cuss word, and the name of Jesus as a cuss word.
 
Nobody in history has had their name used as a cuss word except Jesus, Jesus Christ, and God. And that shows the enmity they have towards their Creator because they're criminals. And as criminals hate the police, so sinners hate God without cause.
 
So, you want to move away from the carnal mind because you're going to get enmity. If you say, “Look, I'm going to show you that Noah did build an ark. I'm going to prove it to you there was a big flood.” And so you go through the whole thing that the ark was really big and the animals were small and it could have happened. Then we've got oceans and that's evidence that the earth was flooded. You get this guy who was a skeptic who'd say, “Okay, I believe there was a big flood and Noah could have built an ark.”
 
Well, great. Now you've got a mountain to climb of Jonah being swallowed by a big fish. Children of Israel shouting and walls coming down when they shout.
 
Balaam's donkey speaking with a man's voice. Samson with strength in his hair. And you've got all these stories, and they're all an intellectual thing, and they're like a mountain you've got to climb to convince them to believe there's an easier way.
 
And the early Christians didn't try and convince anyone the Bible is the word of God because they didn't have a New Testament. There was no printing press. No one could read or hardly anyone could read.
 
Now they just preached the gospel, and you do it not by going for the intellect and trying to intellectually convince someone that God exists or the Bible's the word of God. You do what Jesus did with a rich young ruler. You address the conscience with the commandments.
 
You shall not lie, shall not steal, shall not commit adultery. It's all written on the heart of man. Conscience means knowledge.
 
So that knowledge is there. So, the commandments echo the truth, or the conscience echoes the truth of the commandments. When Paul used the commandments in Romans chapter 2, you who say you shall not steal, do you steal?
 
You say, “You shall not commit adultery; do you commit adultery?” He was addressing the conscience. Romans 2:15, same chapter, would show the work of the law written on their hearts, the conscience bearing witness.
 
So, I have an ally right in the heart of the enemy. I have a judge on the court and in the mind of every sinner that's going to affirm the truth of what I'm saying and point guilt to the sinner or show him that he's guilty. That's the conscience.
 
The second great tool I have or weapon I have is the will to live. Human beings are not dogs, horses, cats, or cows. We're completely different.
 
We're not primates. We're made in the image of God and God has written eternity upon our hearts. He doesn't seem to have done this with my dog.
 
My dog's only concerned with chasing cats and eating. I don't think there's anything else that really interests her, although I love her, but she's not worrying about eternity, but human beings do. So, I know, according to scripture, that everybody has this will to live.
 
So, when I go to the local college, and I go there twice a day, to interview people for our YouTube channel. I often say this, “Would you like to go on YouTube?” They say, “Yeah.”
 
I'm going to ask you, “If you think there's life after death.” I say, “That's okay, and this is my first question. Are you afraid of dying?”
 
And they go, “A little bit.” A little bit? It's huge.
 
It's a tormenting fear of death. It haunts you, and that's what the Bible says, this fear of death that we have. And I can tell by the look in the eyes of this person, they're saying, “How did this guy know?”
 
I haven't told mom or dad. I haven't told my boyfriend or my girlfriend, my brother, my sister, but there's something in me that's terrified of dying. Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us.
 
Amplified Bible, so I'll quote it a little louder. It says, “That God has caused the fear of death or the will to live to be haunting,” it uses the word haunting, “within every human being all their lifetime.” Remember when I was a kid, maybe nine or ten, I used to play wars, cowboys and Indians, and someone would shoot me. I'd roll down a hill and lie there for two minutes and then get up.
 
And then one day as I got older, I thought, I'm not going to get up one day. And that's that haunting fear of death. That revelation that comes to us, as light comes to us, as we get older. And so, I address that, and this is what I say, “Ever read the Bible?” 
 
“No, never opened it.” 
 
“Why not? It's the world's biggest selling book of all time. Did you know in the Old Testament, God promised he would destroy death? And in the New Testament, we're told how he did it. Did you know that?” 
 
They say, “No.” 
 
“Is he interested?”
 
And even if it's an atheist, he's going to say, “Yeah, I'm interested.” Because he's got that haunting fear of death. And so, then I go through the gospel. This is the verse that I share with so many people, and it's the most illuminating verse, and I can see light coming to them as I say this.
 
I say, “Have you ever heard the Bible verse, the wages of sin is death?” And they say, “Maybe.” It's saying that God is paying you in death for your sins.
 
Like a judge who looks at a criminal who's committed murder, but he thinks he's a good person. The judge says, “I'm going to show you how serious your crime is. I'm giving you the death sentence.”
 
This is your wages. This is what you've earned. And I say, “Fred, sin is so serious to a holy God, he's given you the death sentence.”
 
You're on death row. You're in a holding cell. It's got a nice blue roof, good air conditioning, good lighting, but this life is a holding cell, and your death will be evidence to you that God is deadly serious about sin.
 
That has a sobering effect on people because now they've got a reason why they die. Now they know what's going to happen after they die. It's appointed a man.
 
It's appointment. It's appointed a man who wants to die, and after this, the judgment. And as you go through the commandments, it shows them how they need a Savior.
 
And so many people say, I'm going to really think about this. Thank you for talking to me. I say, “When are you going to repent and put your trust in Jesus?”
 
And so many people lately have been saying, “Today.” So, the pandemic, that plague that no one calls a plague, the pandemic did us a huge favor because it made a whole generation think about their mortality, made them realize they're going to die one day. And so, the harvest fields are white.
 
One other thought regarding the fear of death and the will to live, the same thing. Think of a waitress who has to approach three men, businessmen wearing dark suits and little briefcases sitting at a table. They're obviously wheeling and dealing millions of dollars.
 
Is she intimidated? No. She just walks up and says, “Can I take your order?”
 
Why is she so bold? It's because she knows she has what they want. They're there for food.
 
And so that makes her bold. And you and I have what this world wants. Right at this moment, there are people in torture chambers called gyms, lifting weights that are far too heavy for them, pulling things they shouldn't be pulling.
 
And I believe in physical fitness is great. And at the same time, there are people drinking green slime. They would love a chocolate shake, but they drink because they want to increase their life just that little bit more.
 
We have found everlasting life. So, if the world knew what we had, they would ask us. This is what Jesus said to the woman at the well.
 
If you knew who it was that was speaking to you, you would ask me. And if the world knew what we had, everlasting life, they'd plead with us. So, because we know we have what the world wants, like that waitress, we must be bold.
 
And when they realize that we have the answer to death that Jesus Christ has abolished death. When that revelation comes to them, what causes death. That Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, he destroyed death, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel. That's when the light goes on and they say, “Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to me.” I've just about worn myself out.
 
Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:30)
Well, that's incredible to hear, especially the breakdown practically of how you do that. And I would say, “Do you even give people permission to use some of those examples if they want to give this a try?”
 
Ray Comfort: (30:31 - 31:18)
I would plead with them to do so. We've got the evidence Bible. It's filled with how to do these things.
 
And that book, Fifty Years of Open-Air Preaching: Everything I've Learned is filled with stuff like this. How to get a crowd standing up nice and orderly. There's a picture, I don't know if you can see it, at Berkeley University.
 
They're all standing around nice in a big circle. That's where you get stoned to death, Berkeley. But because we understand these principles, we just drew a circle out of chalk and said, stand behind the circle.
 
If anyone got in front of the circle, approached us, we wouldn't talk to them unless they got to the edge of the circle. And people are like sheep. If you say, “Move back behind the chalk line. Do it now.” Okay. They'll do it, if you've got a little bit of authority.
 
And so, you just learn to do things like that. And it means the gospel can go out. So yeah, please, please use these principles.
 
Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 31:34)
And then can you also just paint a picture. If somebody's never seen this before, they've never tried this before, are there any memorable encounters that you've had as you reflect back on these years of open air preaching?
 
Ray Comfort: (31:35 - 33:54)
Yes. Oh, I've got beaten up by a woman once. Oh dear.
 
I'll have to tell you. I was in Santa Monica many years ago, and I had a crowd of maybe 40, 50 people. And there's a woman there that was very vocal and kept calling me, using the F word a couple of times.
 
So, I said, “Ma'am, can you watch your language? There are ladies present.” And she said, “I'm a lady.”
 
I said, “Ma'am, you may be a woman, but you are not a lady.” And with that, she ran at me like a bat out of heaven and began beating me up. Now, most women go scratch, and hair pulling, but she was like Mike Tyson's sister. She got in six punches, knocked me to the ground before my team pulled her off.
 
They held her back. And she said, let me go and get my purse. They let her go.
 
And she gave me a kidney punch and took two weeks for the bruising to go, but she doubled my crowd. She can come back anytime she wants. But that was my fault.
 
And that was very memorable. So, I talk nicely to ladies now. One to one, one of the most memorable ones is a guy named Mario.
 
Our YouTube channel's got 1.57 million subscribers, just past 314 million views. And one of the best, most gripping encounters was with a guy named Mario. I went out on my bike.
 
My dog's on my bike. She's on a platform. She wears sunglasses.
 
I wear sunglasses. It gets people's attention. She's the best bait I've ever had when fishing for men.
 
Saw this guy standing by a tree on a pathway, and I said, “You want to come on camera?” He said, “Yeah.” I was surprised because I didn't have to talk him into it.
 
And he was quite arrogant, very handsome young man. And as we went through the commandments, I saw a tear well in his eye and roll down his cheek. And I thought, oh, no, God's doing a work in the heart of this guy, and I don't want to mess it up.
 
And so, I did my best to end up praying with him, and he was just beside himself in sorrow for his sin. And I think that's something like 4 million views on a YouTube channel. If you go to the most popular to see it, you'll see him there.
 
But that was a very memorable encounter. One that I often think when I'm going out on my bike each day. Lord, give me a Mario today, please.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:58)
When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?
 
Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.
 
Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.
 
We appreciate you. It's compelling to hear this and inspiring, but then also if we're going back to talking about the fears. What fears do you see holding people back from giving this a try or from evangelizing in general?
 
Ray Comfort: (34:59 - 37:37)
That is a great question, and you provoke something very important. I've traveled on about 2,000 flights, itinerating over the years, and so many times I've prayed, and when there's an empty seat on a plane beside me, I always pray for the person who's going to sit there. This is the prayer I subliminally pray.
 
Lord, please don't let this guy show up. That's what I pray. And then he shows up, and I share the gospel with him.
 
My hardest, my biggest mountain to climb was how do you bring the subject up? Okay, I'm on a plane. This guy's a businessman.
 
He's wearing a three-piece suit. He's very intimidating, and I've got to talk to him about the things of God and sin and righteousness and judgment. How do I bring the subject up with this guy?
 
Oh, see those clouds? Guess who made the clouds? God.
 
No, it's just terrifying. But I learned something many years ago that just dissipated that fear of man and the fear of women, and that's this. I just say to any stranger, “Do you think there's an afterlife?”
 
That's a simple question. Do you think there's life after death? I haven't mentioned God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, sin, righteousness, judgment, any of those things that make him feel uncomfortable.
 
I just said, do you think there's an afterlife? And this is how I do it, and I've done it many times. I'm at the ministry now in our studio.
 
Many a time I've had workmen come. Let's say there's a plumber working on something. I go up to him and say, “Hey, how are you doing?”
 
He says, “Good.” I'm Ray. What's your name?
 
He says, “Eric.” Nice to meet you, Eric. Eric, what?
 
I've got a question for you, “Do you think there's an afterlife?” Eric stands up and says, “I don't know.”
 
I say, “Do you think about it much?” Yeah, all the time. His all the time just dissipated my fears.
 
He's not antichrist. He hasn't stabbed me to death. He's a normal human being.
 
He thinks about the issues of life and death all the time. And so, I've got confidence. And the thing that got me in there was that question, do you think there's an afterlife?
 
You can ask anyone. Even Uncle Arthur at the Christmas lunch, sitting there and usually he's working. Uncle Arthur, do you think there's an afterlife? Haven't mentioned God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell. Just let him talk.
 
He says, “Oh, I don't know about heaven.” So Rich, “You ever read the Bible?” Oh, let me get you my Bible.
 
Let me lend it to you. It just opens the door and lets them do the talking. So never forget that.
 
You can talk to any stranger about the things of God by just asking that question. Do you think there's an afterlife? And I do it every day.
 
Laura Dugger: (37:38 - 37:57)
Wow. And I love it, even before we began recording when we were just getting to know each other for a moment. And then you said, well, before we begin, shall we do this in the flesh, or should we pray?
 
And I love that. I think that's such an approachable first step to this.
 
Ray Comfort: (37:57 - 38:07)
Well, you just have to do something in the flesh to know how terrible it is. You need a pulpit, and you think, oh God, I need your help. So, I always pray.
 
Laura Dugger: (38:08 - 38:24)
Absolutely. That's very relatable. And so, if we're considering this invitation to evangelize publicly, what do you think this looks like for men and for women?
 
And do you see any difference between the two?
 
Ray Comfort: (38:25 - 39:21)
Yes, I do. When I look at my wife, I see different from the local workman that comes to work around our home. But physically, no, I don't.
 
Yeah. When Jesus had gone to all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he didn't say, “Oh, that's just for men.” No.
 
Look at the woman at the well. She went off and shared the gospel with the whole village. And so, if a woman's got the courage to stand up and do what men won't do, God bless her.
 
I think that's wonderful. And so, I'm all for women and women stay silent at the church. Well, that's for the church.
 
That's church discipline. But when it comes to sharing the gospel, telling people how they can find everlasting life, women can do just as well with men and a woman can do good with five people or 10 people. Now she can gather a crowd of 200 at a university and share how to find everlasting life.
 
God bless her. And thank you for her, Aud.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:22 - 39:35)
Thank you for sharing that. And can you think of just an easy or approachable next step, something that we could do today that takes inspiration from this conversation and turns it into action?
 
Ray Comfort: (39:35 - 39:38)
Yes. Get the book.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:40 - 39:41)
Absolutely.
 
Ray Comfort: (39:41 - 39:48)
And I'll watch our YouTube channel too. I love it. It'll really help you build confidence.
 
Thank you for that.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:49 - 40:01)
My pleasure. So, if we do determine that we're going to apply what we've learned today, then there's another side to this as well. What kind of attack can we expect from our enemy?
 
Ray Comfort: (40:02 - 42:34)
Oh, full on. You're going to get negative thoughts. You can't do this.
 
You shouldn't do this. What are you going to do if you dry up? The dry up thing is a real big fear.
 
I'm going to get up there and I'll say, “My mind's gone blank.” Well, just have a Gospel of John in your pocket, a little New Testament, maybe a little Gideon in your pocket there. And if you dry up, just say, “Oh, excuse me, I want to read this to you.”
 
You've got John 3:16, corner turned down. Just say, “For God so loved the world and gave his only begotten son who believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Please think about that.
 
Close it and get down. Or you can keep speaking. And so, if you've got an out, that will dissipate your fears if you know you can get out if that happens.
 
I've used it many a time. I mean the fear of every preacher is drying up in a pulpit. I remember I was in a church of 3,000 once and I lost my place.
 
So, you know what I did? I just said, look at that over there. And everyone looked at the wall.
 
I said, I just lost my place. Or I'll say something like this. “Turn to Leviticus 15:3.”
 
And everyone goes, shh, shh, shh. I look for my place. I've got my thoughts back.
 
And they say that was a fake scripture. I don't know what it is. I wanted to do something while I was trying to find my place.
 
And there I've never had problems drying up in the pulpit because I know that's my way out. And it's the same with open air preaching. If you dry up, you're just going to quote John 3:16 or begin reading Genesis chapter 1 to the crowd.
 
“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” And just knowing you've got that out will help dissipate your fears. And when you're finished, you'll have such a joy.
 
I say to our team, whenever you go to preach the gospel, you're dragging your feet. When you come back, you'll be clicking your heels.
 
And that's exactly what happens. You'll have such satisfaction that you did what you know you should. You overcame that Goliath.
 
You ran at Goliath and overcame your fears. And so just do it. If you want to learn to swim, you don't study water.
 
You jump in. That's the best way to learn to swim. And, you know, if you're going to drown, it's a pity more people don't know this, but if you just relax, you'll float.
 
If you panic, you'll probably sink. And it's the same with this. Don't panic.
 
Just trust in the Lord. Say, “Lord, you'll fill my mouth. You'll help me out with this.”
 
And he'll float. He'll float you. He'll take you by the hand, and you'll be fine.
 
I've done it thousands of times, and God's never let me down.
 
Laura Dugger: (42:36 - 43:00)
Amen. I hope we all are willing to give it a try. I think that you really articulated it well when you narrow it down to that fear of man, fear of woman.
 
And I love also that just do it, and we can do it scared. But you're so full of these practical tips. There's one about hecklers that we haven't covered yet.
 
Can you share your perspective on hecklers?
 
Ray Comfort: (43:01 - 44:02)
Hecklers are wonderful. If you fear hecklers, you're fearing the thing that could make what you're doing a great success. A good heckler, if he's handled well, can take a crowd of 15 people to 150 people in about 30, 40 seconds.
 
And all you do is let him vent. There's one, I think we've got, it's called The Angry Atheist. I think it's one of our videos.
 
And this guy was furious, a Christian. So, I just let him vent, and the crowd thickened up, and then we started one by one dealing with his problems. And just always remember a soft answer turns away wrath.
 
If someone's angry, you just speak, what's your name? And they'll say, “Oh, John.” Nice to meet you, John.
 
That's a nice sweater. I remember once a lady came up, this young lady. She was really angry, and I did say the sweater thing to her when she was yelling at me.
 
I said, “That's a nice sweater.” She said, “Really?” I said, “Where'd you get it?”
 
And so, a soft answer turns away wrath. So, you just learn these little things that can really help.
 
Laura Dugger: (44:03 - 44:14)
I love that. And just as a model for us, if we want to share the good news of Jesus, you've done this time and time again. Will you share it with all of us now?
 
Ray Comfort: (44:16 - 46:05)
What are you trying to do to me? You mean you'd like the gospel? Absolutely.
 
One-minute gospel presentation. Okay, let's do a nutshell. Let me say, I'm meeting a stranger.
 
I'll talk directly to them. You know, God's placed a will to live within you. Something in you says, I don't want to die.
 
Did you know the Bible says, “Jesus Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to life through the gospel?” And the reason you're going to die is because you've sinned against God. And all you have to do for a few minutes with an honest heart is go through the commandments.
 
The seventh commandment says, “You shall not commit adultery, but Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you commit adultery in your heart, lying lips and abomination to the Lord. No thief will inherit God's kingdom.” 
 
Ever stolen something? Ever used God's name in vain? And if you've been honest, you'll know you've sinned against God. And if all your sin comes out on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, you're going to end up justly in Hell, and that breaks my heart.
 
And God is not willing that any perish. The Bible says, “He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he's provided a way for you to be forgiven by Christ dying on the cross.” We broke God's law.
 
Jesus paid the fine. It's as simple as that. That means you can leave the courtroom.
 
God can dismiss your case. He can take death off you because of what Jesus did through his death and resurrection. And all you have to do is so simple a child can understand it.
 
You must repent, turn from your sins. You'll never do that while you think you're a good person. And trust in Jesus like you trust a parachute.
 
The minute you do that, you've got God's promise, and he cannot lie. He'll grant you everlasting life as a free gift, not because you're good, but because He's good and kind and rich in mercy. And don't put it off until tomorrow because you may not have tomorrow.
 
Fifty-four million people die every year. Today, if you hear his voice, don't harden your heart.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:07 - 46:10)
It just never gets old hearing that.
 
Ray Comfort: (46:10 - 46:10)
No.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:10 - 46:28)
Thank you. And you also bring up even so clearly from scripture but sharing repent and believe. And is there anything else that you would want to make sure that we wouldn't leave out of a conversation if we were evangelizing to someone?
 
Ray Comfort: (46:29 - 48:02)
Well, another good question. Yeah, a lot of people are saying all you have to do is believe. Just believe.
 
They say if you repent, that's works. Well, by saying you have to believe, that's works. If you have to do anything, believe.
 
No, the Bible says, “By grace you're saved through faith, through faith, and not of yourselves.” It's God's grace that saves us. But if you read scripture, it comes through repentance and faith.
 
And the reason they want to drop repentance is because they don't see the true nature of sin. And what the commandments do, the Ten Commandments, they open up the law and show sin to be exceedingly sinful, and that necessitates repentance. Like with David, when he realized he'd committed adultery and lied and stolen his neighbor's wife, covered his neighbor's wife, murdered his neighbor, that's when he cried out, “Oh, have mercy upon me, oh God, according to your lovingkindness.”
 
If Nathan hadn't said, “Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, and David hadn't said, I've sinned against heaven, he would have just said, oh, just believe. No, he had to get before God and agonize. Scripture says, “Cleanse your hands, you sinners.”
 
Purify your hearts, you double-minded. Let your laugh to be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness.” That's contrition.
 
And the law that shows us the nature of sin produces contrition, sorrow for sin, which works repentance, godly sorrow, works repentance unto life. So, it's most necessary to preach, as Jesus did, repent and believe in that order.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:04 - 48:13)
That is so good. Ray, where can we go to continue learning from you and continue to be inspired by the faithful work that you're doing?
 
Ray Comfort: (48:14 - 48:46)
Very kind of you to say that. LivingWaters.com, sign up for our newsletter. We've always got interesting stuff.
 
We give away a lot of stuff. Watch the YouTube channel. We have different videos each day.
 
We put one up four days ago that's had 4.6 million views. And so, it's a wonderful way to reach the lost. So, follow us.
 
Just become part of a YouTube channel, subscribe, and that really helps us and helps further our reach. So LivingWaters.com and LivingWaters YouTube.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:47 - 49:05)
Wonderful. We'll make sure to add those links in the show notes for today's episode. And as you already know, our podcast is entitled The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, as my final question for you today, Ray, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Ray Comfort: (49:06 - 49:12)
My wife. Is that okay to say that?
 
Laura Dugger: (49:12 - 49:17)
I love that. Do you want to say anything more specific about her?
 
Ray Comfort: (49:17 - 49:44)
Sue and I have been married for 108 years, 54. We love each other. She's my best friend.
 
She works at the ministry and also I love my dog. And one thing I might say just as we close is don't call this anything to do with evangelism. That'll kill.
 
Use the word apologetics or say Ray Comfort says this about his wife. Anything other than evangelism that scares Christians off.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 49:50)
Wow. Interesting. So that's been your experience.
 
That makes sense.
 
Ray Comfort: (49:51 - 50:25)
Yeah. That's a principle we use at the ministry. If we have a conference, don't mention evangelism.
 
No one will come. It's like someone saying to me, “Hey, want to go door knocking, tell people about Jesus?” I go; I just wouldn't want to do that.
 
And there's a reason for it. As a new Christian, I knocked on someone's door, fully aware that Jehovah's Witnesses had stolen our thunder, and I said to this lady, “Hello, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.” She said, “Well, I am.”
 
And so, I've got this aversion to door knocking, and that's what most Christians are like when it comes to evangelism. So, call it something else.
 
Laura Dugger: (50:25 - 50:50)
Wow. So practical, again. And Ray, you've just stewarded your many gifts that God has given you.
 
You've stewarded them so well and so wisely. I can just imagine God greeting you someday and having just, well done, good and faithful servant. So, thank you for generously taking the time to share with us today.
 
I'm grateful for you, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
 
Ray Comfort: (50:51 - 50:52)
Well, thank you for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: (50:53 - 54:35)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
 
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
 
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
 
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
 
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
 
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
 
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

266_Choosing Fun and Adventure in Your Marriage and with Your Family_An Interview with Dan and Sam Mathews

266. Choosing Fun and Adventure in Your Marriage and with Your Family: An Interview with Dan & Sam Mathews
 
Isaiah 55:12 MSG “So you’ll go out in joy, you’ll be led into a whole and complete life. The mountains and hills will lead the parade, bursting with song. All the trees of the forest will join the procession, exuberant with applause. No more thistles, but giant sequoias, no more thornbushes, but stately pines— Monuments to me, to God, living and lasting evidence of God.”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Dan and Sam Mathews have been married since 2014 and currently reside in Missouri with their two kids, Canyon and Ember. Since the moment they got married, Dan and Samantha have been living a life of sacrifice and faith. From backpacking in Arkansas to RV road trips across the US, they have always taken the adventurous route. Sam is a lifestyle vlogger and content creator, and Dan hosts a hunting podcast in addition to his social platforms. Together they share their life of adventure online with millions of followers. Follow them on socials @wearedanandsam. 
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What are a few adventures you're so grateful you said yes to in life?
Matthew 25:26 MSG says, "That's a terrible way to live! It's criminal to live cautiously like that!" So drawing your wisdom from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure? 
How can we begin to enjoy an adventurous life in our marriage and with our family?
 
Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce Podcast:
82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller
242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel
 
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger:  (0:11 - 1:47)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.
 
Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman's Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com. 
 
Dan and Sam Mathews are my guests for today, and you may know them from all the social platforms at WeAreDanAndSam.
 
They live a life of high faith and delightful adventure, and their book, Always Choose Adventure: One Couple's Journey of Chasing the Things in Life That Matter Most, is actually going to release this month. I would highly recommend it. It was an amazing read.
 
I read through it so fast, and it was a great combination of enjoying the stories but learning so much along the way. It's kind of like our chat for today. We're going to cover various stories, but Dan and Sam are also going to give us simple and practical ideas and tips for adding a sense of fun into our marriage and into our family life.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dan and Sam. 
 
Dan Mathews: (1:47 - 1:48)
Thank you for having us. We're excited. We are really excited.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:49 - 1:59)
Well, I'm so excited to journey back and get to hear more of your story, but will you first just give us an overview of what current life looks like right now?
 
Sam Mathews: (2:00 - 2:29)
Yes. Currently, I'm 22 weeks pregnant with our third baby. We have two kiddos.
 
Canyon is almost nine. Ember is seven. We live in Southern Missouri.
 
We love adventuring and traveling, and Dan hunts. We share life on every platform, so just lifestyle, vlogging, and sharing our adventures. We recently settled down in a home, and so this is our first time doing DIYs for ourselves.
 
Yeah, it's a fun season right now.
 
Dan Mathews: (2:29 - 2:46)
And Sam loves to host, so I think we have 48 parties scheduled this summer and knocked out a couple already, but yeah, we're excited about life, excited about adventure, and sharing that with people and how they can actually get out and adventure more.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:47 - 3:01)
You do that so well, but if we're going back then to more of the origin stories, will you both share your journey of growing up and your stories that eventually led for the two of you to overlap with one another?
 
Sam Mathews: (3:01 - 3:37)
Yeah, definitely. It's always been me, my mom, and my sister. My mom was a single mom raising us, born in California, but then she moved us to Southern Missouri when I was young, and this was a great place to raise us.
 
In the Bible Belt, we were raised pretty much in church. She did an amazing job as a single mom, just caring for us and pointing us to Christ. We got plugged into a church very early on.
 
We volunteered there. My sister and I worked there. We attended there, and so we're really involved, and that's how I met Dan when he came to Bible College.
 
Dan Mathews: (3:37 - 4:58)
Yeah, I grew up in central Wisconsin. We went to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, was very, very involved with the kid’s ministry and youth group and just any opportunity I could be around that church community, I was. We had a group called Master's Commission that would come up and do outreach at our church.
 
They were from Florida, and I was like, man, I want to do that one day. These guys are awesome. They're doing human videos, and they're all musical.
 
My dad's brother and his family moved down to Southern Missouri, and I get a call one day right after high school. They were like, “Hey, there's a Master's Commission program down here. If you want to do it, we'll pay for it.” I was like, “Sure, let's do it.” Almost no questions asked, just kind of like, all right, tell me the date I have to be there. Then, I started packing stuff up and quit my job and moved down knowing absolutely nobody. I got plugged into the church. I became very, very involved, and then just built a community, and through that, I went there with Sam's sister, her older sister, and I got to know Sam, and then I ended up working out at the gym that she worked at.
 
Sam Mathews: (4:59 - 5:00)
Which was at our church.
 
Dan Mathews: (5:00 - 5:15)
Which was at the church, and so we were just around each other all the time, and that kind of developed over years and years and years. Then one day, I was like, wow, this chick is awesome, and now we're here doing podcasting.
 
Laura Dugger: (5:16 - 5:32)
Which is incredible. Okay, so just to pause, and you go into more of these stories, love your books, so easy to read, but can you take us back to what you both first thought of one another when you were meeting those days at the gym? Oh, gee.
 
Sam Mathews: (5:33 - 6:22)
For sure, Dan is the life of the party, like he is comedy, and just, he has all the jokes, and definitely a charmer with all the ladies, but so fun to be around, and not only his humor draws you in, but I didn't grow up with a father, and so I liked the, I don't know, like strong aspect that he had, just like the confidence, and then his relationship with the Lord was something that I desired to have for myself, you know, a leader in a couple like together, someone to point me towards Christ, but the lightheartedness and jokes and humor keep the hard days fun, but that for me was, you know, I always can count on you for a good joke.
 
Dan Mathews: (6:23 - 6:41)
Yeah, I, when I first met Sam, it was kind of in a group setting, and it was with her older sister with my younger brother, and it was like, oh, this is, you know, Justine's sister. Little sister. Didn't really think a whole lot of it, but after a couple years, I think you were probably a sophomore at that time when I first met you.
 
Sam Mathews: (6:41 - 6:42)
Yeah.
 
Dan Mathews: (6:42 - 7:36)
And, and then after a couple years, it was like she was volunteering in the youth group, and she was on the recreation staff at our camps, and so it's like we were spending more time together, and I'm like, oh, Justine's sister's kind of cute, and yeah, we started, we started just kind of a friendship. We were just around each other all the time. I mean, like before we were dating, we're really interested in each other.
 
It's like I was walking back from the lake, and she'd hop on my back, and I'd just give her a piggyback ride up to the cabins, and then looking back, I'm like, wow, our lives just were really intermingled and overlapped for years and years, but early on, she was younger. She had braces. She was a hip-hop dance instructor, so I mean, she would have like one sweat pant leg rolled up, high-top Nikes on all the time, like thought she was the coolest thing ever.
 
Laura Dugger: (7:36 - 7:52)
I was. I didn't think. Oh, that's amazing.
 
I love that, and my husband and I were also friends first, and I feel like that does set you up well in marriage. Like you've got your built-in buddy.
 
Sam Mathews: (7:53 - 8:30)
Exactly. I was going through pictures yesterday, because I was going to post a trend online, and it was like, oh, how cute. How many months have you been married?
 
And it's like months? You put a picture for every year, and it's like we've known each other since like 2008, maybe 2009. Then, like started our like dating in 2010. I look at pictures of us from 2010 as a couple. I'm like, oh, my gosh, we've grown so much just like, you know, like physically, but even just relationally and spiritually, and like it's crazy looking back, and so thankful for so many years of friendship with him, but you know, relationship-wise, it's been great.
 
Dan Mathews: (8:30 - 8:52)
Well, and I feel like doing life together is a great model before ever like the romantic side comes in. You get to know the person in group settings. You get to know who they are without the interest, because people can put on a different face once you're trying to impress somebody, you know, but we were just being our genuine selves around each other for a long time.
 
Sam Mathews: (8:52 - 8:59)
Probably saw some stupid moments, some hard moments, but that's, yeah, that's what you want to see before you get into a relationship with someone.
 
Laura Dugger: (9:00 - 9:12)
Absolutely. Yeah. And as we're starting back that far, then when you reflect back, what are some of the adventures that you're most grateful you've said yes to in life?
 
Sam Mathews: (9:13 - 10:38)
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I feel like dating, we weren't even dating at this point, the canoe trip when you did a master's commission, and that was so fun.
 
It was like all of his friends, my sister, all the master's commission group went kayaking, and I decided to tag along as a sibling, and his brother did, and maybe a couple others. And that was fun, but it also gave me an opening into how Dan adventures, because his way of adventuring is way different than mine. I grew up, like I said, with a mom.
 
We would camp at a cabin, and you'd pack the car full of everything you need. Dan would literally just put everything in a backpack and hike in two miles to go camping. And so being in that group, going kayaking, it was so fun, and it sparked this new love for adventure and new desire to learn a new way of adventuring.
 
That was so fun. I mean, that was before we were married, but this is kind of jumping far ahead, but when we were married, we moved to Colorado for a couple of years, and although it was a hard season for us, we learned so much. We gained so much from it.
 
A lot was birthed in us in that season. I mean, physically, I welcomed my daughter. We welcomed our second child in Colorado, but spiritually, I think God planted a lot of seeds that it may not have been a tangible adventure of being out in the woods, but spiritually, we were in the woods, and we grew so much, and I'm glad we said yes to it because it opened the door and led to so many other things.
 
Dan Mathews: (10:38 - 12:31)
Yeah, I feel like a lot of our adventures, some are traditional. I mean, a big adventure for me was leaving home. I mean, I moved straight out of my parents' house to a different state, and that was totally crazy for me.
 
But then watching Sam, I mean, she moved out to California for a summer, went to a ministry out there. Then I saw her go to Colorado and Nanny for a couple, all summer long, and so I was like watching this, and we were talking, and I realized, like, we're both all in on an adventurous life, and even when we don't have the answers, it's like, is the Lord telling you not to do it? No?
 
Okay, well, then we'll see what happens, and I thought that was really cool to watch her just like, oh, I'm going to California for a summer, and at first, I was like, please don't. I don't want you to come all the way to California, but then I was like, that's going to be so incredible. Like, you're just leaving everything behind and starting over for a whole summer in a different state, and so that was like the early dating years where we were kind of doing our own adventures, but we were watching and encouraging each other in doing them, and then we started actually going out and camping and floating rivers and hiking up waterfalls, and if you've never camped in the backcountry with someone, I suggest doing it. It's a great metric for if there's someone you want to marry.
 
Like, if you can figure out canoeing and camping, you're probably going to be okay in marriage. That's good. And so, yeah, we started doing that stuff, and then from there, it was just like one after the next, going to Alaska, camping in grizzly country by ourselves, and it's our first time there.
 
Like, we've done some pretty wild things, some pretty traditional things, but at the end of the day, all of the adventures are what brought us together.
 
Laura Dugger: (12:32 - 12:45)
Well, and just thinking of the adventure that drew you together, and then also your current platforms on socials and vlogging and preserving all of these pictures, like you said, you've captured all the pictures throughout the time.
 
Sam Mathews: (12:45 - 12:45)
Yes.
 
Laura Dugger: (12:47 - 12:58)
When you look back, do you feel like God had given you little seeds of what was yet to come or what kind of career you would be in someday, or was this totally a shock to both of you?
 
Sam Mathews: (12:59 - 13:57)
You know what? Looking back at pictures or even videos that I took, I could see how it was something that the Lord was birthing in us, and I would say probably me so more than Dan. I think Dan's like, whatever you want to do, I'm along for the ride type of thing.
 
It probably wasn't his first choice as a career, but now that we're in it, we love it and we're thankful for the blessing it is to our family and the time that we get to spend with the kiddos. But I look back and I started videoing and taking pictures like years before even starting on social media, and then even the first few months in the year of sharing, it was like I didn't know what I was doing, but I still wanted to just share life and encourage people and love on people and inspire people. And yeah, it's crazy to look back on, but I also see the work the Lord was doing to get it all started before we even thought about it and knew that it would be something that we'd be doing.
 
Dan Mathews: (13:57 - 16:00)
Yeah, and I feel like with Sam, she gets promptings from the Lord that she doesn't know what it is. She doesn't know what it means. And early on, I think the very first one, she's like, babe, I just have this feeling like a big change is coming.
 
And I'm like, anymore? Like, do you have any more information for me? That's not a whole lot to go off of.
 
And I mean, in the conversation, I was like, okay, we'll see. Then I just forgot about it. And I mean, it was like the next day.
 
There was an issue at work, just a very immoral thing that they were asking us to do as employees. And I was like, no, I can't be part of this. And I called her right after, and I was like, babe, I think this might be it.
 
Like I'm going to resign tomorrow. And we talked and prayed, and I only had like a five-minute car ride home. We talked, prayed, got off the phone, and immediately I get a call from my buddy.
 
And he's like, “Hey, dude, don't know what you're doing for work right now, but I've got a job for you if you want to come work at this place I'm at.” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” So then two years later, the same thing happened.
 
She's like, I feel like a change is coming. Boom, big change. Two years later, I feel like a change is coming.
 
All of a sudden, we're in a car moving out to Colorado. And it was just like that cycle. And so now when she's like, hey, there's a change coming, I'm like, oh, my gosh.
 
I got to pack my bags. Something big's happening. I know something major is happening.
 
And so, I don't know that early on either of us expected us to be where we are today. But we knew that we wanted to prioritize time together. We wanted to prioritize time with our kids and above all of it, time with the Lord.
 
And if we could get those three in the right order, it didn't really matter where we were. It didn't matter what state we were in. If we were living in a bumper pole camper, an RV, a tiny home, or a regular sized house, we just knew that we had to prioritize those things, and everything was going to work out.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:01 - 18:03)
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There's a verse that you quoted in your book, and I had never read it before, in the message translation.
 
So, it's Matthew 25:26 that says, “That's a terrible way to live.” It's criminal to live cautiously like that. So, drawing your wisdom then from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure?
 
Sam Mathews: (18:04 - 19:50)
Yeah, a lot of faith and trust. Several points in our life have been like a crossroads where we feel like we want to almost desire more out of everything to go towards the direction where God is leading us, where we don't know the outcome. We don't know what's ahead.
 
We don't know what's coming and it's forcing us to trust the Lord, to have faith, even though we're fearful of it. Or we look at another option where it's like, you know what, this is very comfortable. We know the outcome.
 
We know what's going to be required of us. We know how we're going to get there, how we're going to pay for it. And it was something we didn't desire.
 
We liked being in a position where we needed the Lord. We're reliant upon Him. And so, you know, we talk often in the book about being comfortable.
 
And I feel like when you're in a comfortable setting in life, it's safe. There's no risk involved. There's little to no trust in the Lord.
 
I say that, you know, there's more to the story of that. But that you don't want to be at a place where you don't need God, where you don't need to rely on Him. And so, for us, we just encourage people that if you do find yourself in a comfortable place, to maybe step out of your comfort zone a little bit.
 
To what's an area where you need to trust the Lord more? Is it finding that new job that you've been waiting for, that you've been hoping for? Is it moving to the state that's closer by your family or closer by your friends that you really desire but you're scared too?
 
To not just be comfortable and stay for the sake of not being fearful or not, like knowing what's next, but instead step out, trust the Lord, you know, as long as you have peace and as long as you feel that yes from Him. And just lay fear aside and move forward with the Lord.
 
Dan Mathews: (19:50 - 21:54)
Yeah, with every big decision that we make, we're led by peace. And we've said it for years. If either one of us don't have peace about it, we're not doing it.
 
But when there are multiple doors open, we say we're going to choose the most adventurous one. If we don't feel a specific direction from the Lord, let's just pick the most adventurous one. And it's kind of become common practice for us to not have really many of the details planned out on a major decision on a trip.
 
And people are like, do you have any idea of what you're going to do when you move there? Or how long you're going to be traveling the country in an RV? And we're like, nope, we'll figure it out.
 
I joke with my buddies all the time because they're like, “I mean, how do you know everything's going to be okay? How do you know this?” I go, well, between me and God, we've got everything figured out.
 
And they're like, “Oh, okay, I get it.” I'm like, “well, the Lord has everything figured out, but I can throw myself in that team, you know?” And I feel like it's been an encouragement to some of our friends as they watch it.
 
And they're like, whoa, you guys did it. I'll talk about it for years. And even when we moved out to Colorado, in our minds, we were going to move out there.
 
All of our friend group was like, one person needs to move. And then everybody else is going to slowly follow out. Well, we end up moving out there.
 
And I'm like shooting my buddies messages like, “All right, when are you coming out? And one by one, it was like, “No, I don't think we're coming.”
 
No, it's not going to be for at least five years. It's going to be, you know, maybe when the kids graduate, all of these different responses. And I'm like, man, that was one of the biggest things that we missed when we were out there.
 
But we knew that moving to Colorado, taking a pay cut, paying more in rent, like all of those things were a stepping stone to get us to where we were today, to trusting the Lord and starting our first business together, trusting the Lord with our finances, with our time. And really putting us in a position where we were fully dependent on him for our survival.
 
Sam Mathews: (21:54 - 22:40)
And so even if something doesn't work out, we mentioned a couple of stories in the book where we may have moved forward without peace, and it did not end well. But the Lord always brings it around and teaches us something from it or a situation where we felt the peace to move to Colorado, but we were only there for two years. It was hard on us financially.
 
We got into debt. We had no friends, no family out there. It was a hard season.
 
We still gained from it. So instead of looking at something as a complete loss, we still look to find the good. You know, what did the Lord birth in us?
 
You know, like Dean said, spiritually, we grew together. Financially, we started a business. Like so much good came from it that even though it maybe on paper or to others, it didn't make sense.
 
It was still good. And something that the Lord, yeah, started for us.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:41 - 23:05)
And you've learned those lessons and now you get to share them with others. Even super practical with this one. Our family has never done the RV thing before, but even just dipping our toes in and trying a vacation that way.
 
What tips do you have for families, maybe who aren't traveling around, living out of their RV, but vacationing with one, what are some of your best tips?
 
Sam Mathews: (23:05 - 24:27)
I just saw a video of someone sharing the other day where they took their family of, let's see, four, six total on an RV for the first time. And I was like, oh no, because the first warning I give to everyone is you have to drain your poop through the hose. If you're out on that, RV life is not for you.
 
RV vacation is not for you. Do you have to get down and dirty and take care of a few things? There's a lot more maintenance that comes with RV vacationing or RV life.
 
And I usually have the dirty work for Dan to do and I'm inside cooking, cleaning. But an RV has all your basic needs. You can still go to the bathroom, you can still shower, there's a toilet, there's a bed.
 
It's just on a lot smaller scale. And if you're not good with being in close proximity with all your children or your spouse, then you may just need a little bit of a bigger space to stay in. But it's fun because you get to navigate it together and you get to learn just a new way of life or new way of traveling.
 
And yeah, the maintenance of the restroom, you have to have water hookups, or you need solar for electric or you have to be hooked up to electric. The great part is you can go anywhere, and you can get right up close to some great adventures. Our favorite spot to park an RV is the rim of the Badlands.
 
It's so pretty. Is it the North Rim?
 
Dan Mathews: (24:28 - 24:28)
Yeah.
 
Sam Mathews: (24:28 - 24:54)
It's gorgeous. You wake up to the sun rising over it and it's the most peaceful thing to be right there next to it. And you can't do that with a cabin in the woods.
 
But the benefit to a cabin in the woods is that's its own adventure. And so just do a little bit of research on the maintenance required for setting up, tearing down the RV in order to get on the road and to like park it and set up.
 
Dan Mathews: (24:55 - 26:44)
I like how you weave some of the worst parts about our RV life in there. But I will say being on the road, traveling and like just kind of deciding on the way is one of the greatest things ever. I did not, like we definitely had a plan.
 
It was like, “Hey, we're gonna stop one time.” Growing up, we've got five kids. So, it was like, we're stopping one time to go to the bathroom.
 
If you have to go, you're just gonna have to hold it type of thing. We were fairly structured in the traveling to a place. But being in an RV, it really opens up so much to where you can on the way be like, oh, I just saw a billboard.
 
I wonder what that is. Look it up. How far away is it?
 
Hey, what if we take a 45-minute detour and go check this out? Like we found places in the middle of Kansas that 1% of the population knows about. We camped.
 
There's spots that you can camp on the rim of the Grand Canyon. Like no guardrail, back your vehicle right up, walk out the door, sit there, have coffee or whatever in the morning. And that was like our favorite part about it.
 
There were nights that we would drive until like one in the morning. And we might be sleeping in a truck stop. But we were on the way to Glacier National Park or to the Oregon coast or wherever.
 
And so, I feel like ditching the schedule and just kind of figuring it out as you go is one of the most freeing things on a vacation. And the other nice part about it is if you find a place that you absolutely love and you're like, we want to spend four days here, do it. You don't have a new reservation somewhere else that you have to get to.
 
You can just go wherever the wind blows, have fun with the family. And yeah, I think everybody needs to do it at least one time.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:44 - 27:02)
Oh yeah, for sure. What a great challenge to step outside our comfort zone like you said. Well, one other amazing adventure that you've embarked on together is becoming a surrogate twice, I believe.
 
Will you tell us a little bit more about that process and that experience?
 
Sam Mathews: (27:03 - 31:10)
Yeah, definitely. So, in 2018, we had our daughter and she was a little bit more work than our first. So, our first was super easy.
 
Ate well, slept well, like barely cried. And our daughter, maybe it was just her being a girl. A little bit more needy and required some extra grace and some more prayer for patience on my part.
 
But at that point, I was like, yeah, I think I'm done. Having children of our own and parenting our own children because even raising two kids is going to be a task. But I didn't feel like I was done carrying children.
 
And I'm like, I still want to have babies, but I don't want to have more to parent. How do I do that? But I felt like the Lord just laid surrogacy in my heart.
 
And I started thinking about it, praying about it, researching it. And I brought it up to Dan like, hey, what would you think about me doing this? And I had to educate him a little bit on like what being a surrogate was.
 
As a gestational surrogate, I wasn't carrying an embryo with an egg that was mine. So, I'm not biologically related to the baby. And after some prayer, we both felt at peace about it.
 
And so, we walked through that door and started the process of meeting a couple or going through an agency to start a journey. And yeah, we've done two now. So, in 2022, I delivered a baby boy for a couple.
 
And then in 2024, so just last year, I've just actually in a few days, I'm going to hit my year mark of my second belly bud being one and a little girl for a couple. And it was like the most, one of the greatest adventures I've been on. And I've gained so much from it.
 
And it's so rewarding to see someone who desires to be a parent, to be a mom, but physically can't. To see them walk that road and just step into the role that like watching her become a mom is like, you can tell that's what she was meant to be. That's what the Lord had for her.
 
And it's so fun seeing the joy of their family and watching her grow up and like being a part of her life. That, yeah, like we just encourage other people, if you're able to do something like that, or no matter what it is, it's not just surrogacy, but if God's calling you to something that may require a lot more from you or something that is not normal, it's not traditional, you don't see it a lot, like just step out and do it. And yeah, it's been fun.
 
It definitely grouped Dan and I closer together. Spiritually, he was there for me in times of emotional hardship. Pregnancy in itself is hard, but to do it multiple times, you know, this is my fifth pregnancy now.
 
There's a lot of roles that he takes on to care for the kids more, to care for me more. And we've grown closer and just his love for me, seeing it that even though it's not our baby, like he's still caring for me and taking care of me as if it was. And the Lord, I've had to rely on the Lord so many times because pregnancy and birthing in itself is a miracle.
 
To go through moments of transfer, like the embryo doesn't always take the first time on a transfer or your levels are off or maybe one of the ultrasounds is, you know, something doesn't look good on it. We're constantly relying on the Lord and it gives us an opportunity to share with intended parents, you know, someone who didn't have hope, didn't have anything to look forward to for parenting their own children, to just like be an encouragement to them spiritually and then share these journeys with others publicly has been a great way just to share our faith and to share how going through a surrogacy journey caused us to rely on the Lord and, you know, point everything back to Christ and, you know, God being just very pro-life and we're excited to bring this life into the world.
 
And so, yeah, definitely a big adventure to embark on to bring two babies into the world that aren't ours, but one of like the greatest things I've ever done. It's awesome.
 
Laura Dugger: (31:11 - 31:25)
It's a beautiful sacrifice and I'm sure others are also wondering at that moment when you meet the baby that you've been carrying, how did you handle those emotions of sharing the baby?
 
Sam Mathews: (31:25 - 33:42)
Yes. Yeah, definitely. So, when you go into surrogacy, you know, from the beginning that it's not your child, especially as a gestational carrier, not related to it.
 
Throughout the pregnancy, all these milestones that you hit, you're excited for it, but you're excited for it for the parents. So, finding out, you know, there's a heartbeat and seeing the baby for the first time on ultrasound, you're excited for them. Finding out the gender, you're excited for them.
 
You know, delivering the baby, you're excited for them that you do a lot of mental prep, but there's also like a lot of research that shows to like plan something after delivery for your family to do, something for you to do with your kids so that when you do leave the hospital, you don't think about what you don't have anymore. You think about what you do have at your house with your family. And so, it may seem hard.
 
I think a lot of times people compare it to adoption where the birth mom is literally giving up her child to somebody else and the hardship that that would cause on her as a surrogate. And I can only speak for myself because I'm sure there are times where it is hard for a surrogate. But for me, it wasn't because I did a lot of mental preparing, emotionally preparing that I knowing that this child wasn't mine going into it.
 
I knew that at the end of it, I would deliver the baby and the baby would be taken from me and I'm not raising this child. And a lot of times you don't even touch a baby until like maybe you're discharged to see the baby before you leave. So, it's not like I'm delivering the baby.
 
The baby's being given to me and I'm holding and I'm bonding with it. And then it's being taken away. It's no, this is from the moment it comes out of the womb.
 
It is their baby and it's in their care. And again, seeing their face, their joy, the moment where like they're seeing their child for the first time is so rewarding. And that's something that I would never want to take from them.
 
It was never my role to be this baby's mother. It was to just carry their baby and to bring their baby into the world. And so, it's not as hard as you think, thankfully.
 
I mean, I wouldn't have done it a second time for sure if it was. And we're praying about a third one. But it's so rewarding.
 
And yeah, you know from the beginning that it's not yours. So, it's easy to, in a sense, pass the baby off.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:43 - 34:56)
Well, that's a story that really encapsulates stewardship. I think that's a great example. 
 
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For both of you, your lives are just fascinating mostly because you're living this life of faith and sacrifice. So, it's compelling to get to hear how you're actually doing that. But then I love how you call out that you don't recommend people go to the other extreme and become reckless and chase adventure. You discern between choosing adventure and chasing adventure.
 
So, I'm wondering if you can give us any of your definitions or parameters around what choosing adventure does and does not look like for you.
 
Dan Mathews: (34:57 - 38:00)
Yeah, I think that choosing adventure for us is looking at opportunities where we can spend as a family, where we can get outside of our comfort zones and just really put it in the Lord's hands. Have fun along the way, you know, whether it's ziplining or jumping off a cliff, like a lot of people think adventure has to be this grand thing and super dangerous. And for us, it isn't really.
 
Like there's been a couple of times where we've been like, this got crazy quickly. Maybe we could have planned it out a little bit better. But at the end of the day, it all worked out.
 
And so, when we talk about people choosing instead of chasing or not being reckless, it's all about like, do something new, do something fun, do something that puts you outside of your comfort zone, but isn't going to put you in a bad position. I'm not the guy that's like, you know what? Never swam across Lake Michigan.
 
I'm going to give it a go, see how it happens, and see what happens. If that's the case, it's like maybe start out with a triathlon and see what you're going to do and work your way up. And so, I don't ever want anyone to take the book or take the things that we say or the adventures that we've had in life and think I'm going to do something absolutely crazy that doesn't make sense.
 
That's not logical. That's not safe. Like, that's not what this is about.
 
It's about just getting outside of your comfort zone. And the more you're outside of it, the more comfortable you become with being uncomfortable. And I tell people, like on some of my backcountry hunts, I want to be comfortable in suffering.
 
Like when I'm really, really struggling physically to climb up a mountain with a 70-pound pack on my back, I want to be like, I know I'm making it out of this. It's not fun in the moment. Like it hurts.
 
My legs are burning. My back hurts. I feel like I need a break, but I'm going to keep pushing through.
 
And when I look back on that, I'm going to go, that was brutal and awesome. And I loved every second of it. And I feel like that's how, how we view our trips, our road trips.
 
I mean, driving, what was it? Thirty something thousand miles in a couple months and visiting dozens and dozens of states. It was like, there were times where it was like, I don't want to be on the road anymore.
 
The wind is literally about to tip the RV over. I'm almost taking out construction cones or running into things because I had never driven an RV before. And the very first place we go is Wisconsin.
 
And we drive right past Chicago and there's like construction for a hundred miles. And so it's like all of those things, they were fun. Yeah, they were scary in the moment we got through, we were never in any real danger.
 
And so, yeah, I feel like it's a stair step when it comes to adventure. I didn't start out just wandering around Alaska by myself. It started with going down to Arkansas, being five miles away from the vehicle and then kind of built from there.
 
Sam Mathews: (38:00 - 39:50)
Yeah, to not be reckless, like to, you know, we talked about this earlier to move forward when you have peace. And just because you have peace with it, someone else may not understand it. But with peace, like there's wisdom too.
 
You don't want to move forward with a lack of peace and not using wisdom in a decision because yeah, that will get you in trouble and that will cause hardship and pain later down the road. But if you have peace about something and there is that open door and you feel the release from the Lord to go on this adventure, then do it. And even though if it doesn't work out, you know, God will still work everything out.
 
But yeah, like Dan said, when you, the more you do things that are outside your comfort zone or that, you know, even others may not agree with, but you feel at peace with and you're moving forward, the easier it becomes to do those. And the more you would trust the Lord. And like you said, again, it doesn't have to be some grand adventure.
 
We encourage people that if they're new to choosing adventure and they're new to stepping outside their comfort zone, try like a new restaurant one day, go to like a new, I was thinking the other day, we live in Missouri and we always travel outside of Missouri for adventure. I'm like, we need to do a six-month adventure just within Missouri. Like we drove two hours South and through Missouri to go to Georgia last week.
 
And we were driving down this hill on one of the roads. I'm like, this looks like, it looked like Georgia already, or it looked like Colorado, the hillside and the trees and the fog, I'm like, this is beautiful. And I look down, I'm like, oh, we're still in Missouri.
 
So, there's so much to adventure and to explore in your own backyard or down your street that it doesn't have to be something crazy wild. We're not saying go, you know, jump out of a plane and skydive or something, but just start small, start where you have peace and where you feel the Lord's leading.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:52 - 40:26)
That's great. I love having a handful of practical things. I think of my brother, Drew and his wife, Amanda, when their kids were really little, they just drew a two hour radius to see what places would be fun to go invest and explore.
 
Or for us, I would say one of our most recent adventures, we didn't know what it would look like on the other side, but it's become one of our favorite things in life and probably our best decision in parenting for us as we started homeschooling our kids last year. And it has been a wild adventure.
 
Sam Mathews: (40:26 - 40:27)
That's an adventure.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:28 - 40:36)
So, any other tips to get people started? Those are even trying the new restaurant. Yeah.
 
Anything else like that that you would say?
 
Dan Mathews: (40:37 - 42:13)
The nice thing is that we all have this supercomputer in our hand or in our pocket all the time. And there are so many lists of like the top 10 places to see, places to eat. There's books that are just like places to canoe before you dive, places to hike before you dive, and they have all of this stuff listed out.
 
And so, it's not that you have to be a pioneer and find a new place that nobody's ever been before. Look at the research that people have done before you and look at lists, get on Pinterest or any social media platform and try to just figure out what are practical things that you can do. And then you can also say, how difficult is this going to be for me?
 
Do I really need to jump that far into it right now? Or should I just go to a local park that might have a cool cave that I can explore? Or maybe there's a creek near the house and like, what if we just go down there and see if we can find fish or crawdads or try to skip rocks?
 
My kids, that is one of their favorite things. I'm like, I love doing it as a kid. I didn't realize how exciting just the act of watching a rock skip on the water would be for kids.
 
And so there's, yeah, there's a million different resources online for things that you can practically do close to home. And it might, for some people, just be trying that DIY project instead of calling a carpenter to put yourself up, you know, or a handyman. Like, give it a try.
 
The worst that's going to happen, you have a hole in your wall. Now you watch a video on how to patch it.
 
Laura Dugger: (42:14 - 42:37)
That's so good. And I'm seeing a theme. A lot of these are getting outdoors and nature.
 
That's always an adventure. But then I'm even thinking simple things in conversation, trying out a new question, even with a loved one. Or you said at the beginning that you love hospitality.
 
So inviting somebody new into your home. I think any of that novelty is just really good for us. Yeah, definitely.
 
Dan Mathews: (42:38 - 44:32)
Yeah, I think even making it a point in conversation when somebody asks you how your day is, instead of just saying good and continuing on, actually stop and talk to them. Because a lot of people, their biggest fear might not be going on a road trip, might not be financial ruin. It might just be opening up and being vulnerable with another person.
 
And so it could be the person at the office that you've never actually had a conversation with. You know each other. You might wave when you walk by their desk.
 
But actually talk to them. Get to know them. Tell them about yourself.
 
And so the book has a lot of those types of things lined out where it's like it might not be physical. It might not be out in nature. It might be within your home.
 
It might be, I mean, some people need to do this with their kids. Like that might be the scariest thing is talking to your teenager. Like actually having a conversation.
 
And we're going to sit down and we're going to have a meal together and actually talk as a family. And so, yeah, it looks different for everybody. And that's one thing, because our passion is being outside.
 
Like Sam wants a houseboat. She wants to buy a houseboat and renovate it and live in it for a certain amount of time. And we've had other people who a bunch of homeschool families bought sailboats and sailed all around the world as they were homeschooling their kids.
 
And I heard that and I was like, yeah, yeah, we're going to have to do that at some point. But I know for a lot of people, just going outside is a big deal. And so it looks different for everybody.
 
We do give a lot of nature examples, but there's different ways for every type of person, every level of. What would you even call it? Social.
 
There's a lot of different levels to the social scale. And so no matter where you are, there's something for you to be a little bit more adventurous.
 
Laura Dugger: (44:34 - 44:42)
OK, so like I said, you've made a compelling argument for getting outside of our comfort zone. Why do you think some of us resist this attractive lifestyle?
 
Sam Mathews: (44:43 - 46:46)
Yeah, I think there's fear in it. There's sadly nowadays, you know, what will other people think of me? What will what if we fail?
 
What if we lose money? What if we what if I look a certain way that I don't want to appear to others? And that's where you just have to think back to Christ.
 
Like what is it? What really matters at the end of the day? It's how God views you.
 
And if you fail, oh, well, what if the Lord like just opens up so many doors and creates an avenue for you to get out? Or what if so much good comes from it that we can't be afraid of failure? Again, move forward cautiously with wisdom and with the Lord's peace and direction.
 
But in our book, we share one of our biggest adventures was going out to Colorado and renovating a van for five days. And we broke down on the side of the road, something no one wants to do in the desert, in the middle of twice. We did twice.
 
We broke down in the middle of Kansas and then in Colorado again. And it was we'll be honest, it was not fun. It was one of like the scariest times.
 
But looking back, like we're so thankful we did because so much good came from it. Like we met some amazing people who helped us along the way. And it's now one of our favorite stories to tell of encouragement that just because you say yes to adventure and just because something bad happens, it's not all a waste.
 
And I think, yeah, that fear just keeps people from being able to move forward and being like, you know what? Like I'm comfortable right here in my house, my kids in public school, not going anywhere because I know where my money's coming. I know like what's happening tomorrow.
 
I know how people are going to respond. And I'm just going to like stay here. Not that that's a bad thing, because the Lord needs people in every season in every situation.
 
But if he's prompting you to step out and to try something new, like don't be afraid of what's required from you or what could happen. You never know like where it could lead.
 
Dan Mathews: (46:47 - 48:10)
Yeah, I think a lot of it is those few things, fear, pride, or just you believing that God isn't big enough or doesn't care about your situation. And unfortunately, a lot of people are there where I really want to try this, but like what if things go wrong? And for us, it's like when things go wrong, that's where the Lord provides.
 
That's where the Lord directs. That's where he leads. That's where his word can be the lamp to your feet and a light to your path.
 
When you're trying to do it all on your own and you're staying in this safety net of comfort, nothing amazing happens in that place. And so, we've seen it time and time again, the Lord's provision, the Lord's provision in our lives and not only the provision financially, but actually like setting us free from constraints like social constraints of like you have to work nine to five. We heard that over and over and over.
 
And I'm like, well, the nice thing is Sam and I are both hard workers and super driven, and I'm sure we could get jobs again. Yeah, so like worst case scenario, we run completely out of money and we go back to go back to work. And I'm like, what does failure actually look like?
 
And I try to get people to break it down for me. People who are like, I'm glad that worked for you, but that couldn't work for us. And I go, why?
 
Sam Mathews: (48:10 - 48:10)
Yeah.
 
Dan Mathews: (48:11 - 48:20)
Like, why couldn't it work for you? And they're like, well, I like what happens if it doesn't work out? And I'm like, let's expand on that as far out as we can think.
 
Sam Mathews: (48:20 - 48:21)
Even the worst.
 
Dan Mathews: (48:21 - 48:24)
Like, does that work? Like, are you going to die? No.
 
Sam Mathews: (48:24 - 48:24)
Yeah.
 
Dan Mathews: (48:24 - 49:02)
Like, no, you'll probably just come back home if it doesn't work out, you know? And so, trying to trying to show people that because the fear of the unknown is pretty significant to people. Something completely new to them that they've never tried it's really challenging to get people to take that first step.
 
But once they do, the second step is easier. The third step is easier. And pretty soon you're jumping and sprinting and you're like, whoa, this whole life is out here that I didn't even know existed.
 
So yeah, I definitely think it's those three, though.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:03 - 50:59)
That's good. And it makes me think that typically the way that we grow our faith is action. We put our faith into action and God gives us with more faith when we're faithful with the little faith that we have.
 
And it also makes me think back, I believe it was episode 82, 82. Traveling With Your Family With Teacher, Wife, and Mother to 4,, with the guest, Katie Mueller. I'm going to link to it. I think you guys would love it where she parallels what God called people to do throughout the Bible with travel, what that looks like today, practical, fun things.
 
But Sam, something that you said reminded me of this when you're like, “Well, if nothing else, it's going to be a great story.” And she referred to that, like when things went wrong growing up on their travels, they laughed so hard about those memories. And in their family, they tragically lost their dad very unexpectedly.
 
Actually, her mom, I'll link to Joyce Hodel's episode as well. She shares that story. But their family has all of these stories and all of these memories from choosing adventure.
 
So that makes me start to think of marriage and family. And as we put that together with adventure, you guys always make adventure feel approachable, even in parenting. And I'm thinking on page 15, you wrote that as a kid, anytime you get to drive cross country, stay at a hotel or eat at a restaurant, it's an adventure for no reason other than it's a break from the norm, right?
 
And you know what? That's the whole point. Choosing adventure is about stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new.
 
There's no right or wrong way to do it. So, with that in mind, Dan and Sam, how can we begin to enjoy this adventurous life in marriage and in family?
 
Sam Mathews: (51:00 - 51:49)
Yeah. Bringing your kids along is such a fun, it requires a little bit more packing, but such a fun aspect to adventure. And going on date nights with your spouse, trying something new, experiencing it together, finding something you enjoy together, but realizing that it can also, there's another level of fun to have your kids along with.
 
And sometimes we'll drive 30 minutes away and stay at a hotel for a night just because it's a new place to go and the kids love it. And it doesn't have to be expensive. They go putt-putt and that for them is the greatest thing.
 
If you end it with ice cream, it's even better than the cherry on top, that it's just something fun for them. But yeah, realizing that it can be a family thing, but it could just be you as a couple too. But yeah.
 
Dan Mathews: (51:50 - 54:56)
Well, and for kids, there's so much adventure to be had right at home or right in your backyard. I bought, I went to Walmart one day and I bought two extra large king-size sheets just so that we could do forts. I was like, I'm gonna put these in the closet and now I've got like the alligator clips and so I can clip them to different things.
 
And when it's a rainy day and the kids are bored and we're stuck inside, it's just a break from the norm. And then they'll be like, mom, dad, come see what we did. And they might build like a little shop where they sell us stuff inside of their fort.
 
Or they might make beds for us and for the stuffed animals and for our dog and all of these different things. And so, breaking out of the norm is just what adventure is. Like if they're not used to that, if they're not used to that time together, like some days it's, we're gonna go jump on the trampoline and they're like, wait, both of you at once?
 
Normally one of us is getting stuff done and the other one's hanging out with them. And when all of a sudden it's like both of us unexpectedly are walking to the trampoline, they're like, oh, family trampoline jump. If you need really good ideas for adventure and you're a parent, just watch Bluey.
 
If you haven't seen Bluey, that dad is awesome. And like we used to do the claw game. I would put all of their stuffed animals in my lap.
 
My thumb was the joystick and then my other hand was the claw and they had to move it and I would pick up the stuffed animals. And to them, it was the greatest thing they'd ever done. And we saw it on a cartoon.
 
And so, incorporating family into it, I feel like it's just, it's really easy. And aside from excuses, there's no reason not to get the kids involved in it. Also, there's a million books about getting kids outside.
 
And so, like checklists that they can do. Every national park, if for those that don't know or haven't visited national parks, I didn't know this because we didn't go to any national parks growing up, but your kids can become a junior ranger. They get these booklets and they get badges of the individual parks and they have to learn about nature and about the animals that are there and about the history.
 
And so that became a thing for the kids. Every place we went, it was like, “Oh, I need a junior ranger badge.” And I mean, they had wooden badges just lining their chest.
 
Like they were some war hero and they absolutely loved it. And so there's things like that locally in nature parks and stuff. But doing it together.
 
I mean, that's what it's all about. For me, I watched the guys on TV and I'm like, that guy just went to New Zealand by himself or like watching alone. I'm like, I don't want to do that.
 
It would be pretty crazy, I feel like. I think everybody needs some type of alone time here and there. But for me, I want to share this stuff with my wife, with my kids, with my buddies.
 
And so, yeah, that's what it's all about.
 
Sam Mathews: (54:56 - 55:07)
Yeah, like you said, have those stories to tell with your family, of your family members. That way, if something does happen and they pass, you have so much to look back on of the memories you're able to share together.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:09 - 55:15)
Absolutely. And to bring those up and share them with our kids while we are together. They love hearing stories about when they were little.
 
Sam Mathews: (55:16 - 55:16)
Oh, yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:17 - 55:29)
And you guys have taken it a step further where you document it then and preserve. So if we want continued inspiration after this conversation, where can we go to follow you two and your adventures?
 
Sam Mathews: (55:30 - 56:08)
Yes, we do. Our kids love watching our travels and stuff. We share along for videos and stuff on YouTube, Facebook.
 
But we share our life on every platform. We are Dan and Sam. Pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook.
 
And then Dan has his hunting content over at the Nomadic Outdoorsman. And yeah, we share day-to-day life, what that looks like, lifestyle. But then our travels, our adventures, mom life, welcoming a new baby, our surrogacy journeys, whatever life looks like at that time and how we're enjoying it, what God's teaching us, where we're going.
 
And we laugh along the way, the encouragement and try to inspire you to live an adventurous, fun-filled life.
 
Laura Dugger: (56:09 - 56:28)
Love it. We'll add links to all of those things in the show notes for today's episode. And you two may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Sam Mathews: (56:31 - 57:15)
Ooh, practical knowledge. Let's see. I would say with motherhood, don't think that, I don't know if this would be considered savvy sauce, but it's just a good reminder to myself that as a mom, you may think you're alone in something, you're going through it, and it's just you, but you're not.
 
You are with a community of people who are feeling the same thing that you're walking through, going through the same thing, and just reminding yourself you're not alone because I think it makes the journey a lot easier to know that there's other people walking through the same season, the same hardship, the same joy, the same trials as you. And it makes life a little bit easier when you feel less alone.
 
Dan Mathews: (57:16 - 58:26)
I think for me, it would be that your kids are going to be an extreme version of what you are. So, if you're showing fear and decisions, if you're hesitant, if you're not trusting the Lord, that's gonna be compounded in their lives. And they're just a more magnified mirror image of what their parents are.
 
And so, we try to, in everything that we do, go, is this something that's gonna set up our kids for success? And it's not like, oh, we have to have money in the bank for them, you know, for a retirement fund one day or a college fund. I'm talking like everyday lessons.
 
If I put my phone screen in front of my kids, they're gonna do that more and more and more. If I prioritize things that aren't meant to be prioritized over my wife, they're gonna see that. And so, we try to be very, very clear about what our priorities are.
 
We try to live intentionally, showing them the right way to do things and being an example to them. And so, yeah, that'd be my savvy sauce.
 
Laura Dugger: (58:27 - 58:49)
I love it. You two are so full of integrity and you definitely shine the love and the light of Jesus brightly by the way that you live. So, I know I'm leaving this conversation feeling very inspired to choose adventure.
 
And I just wanna say thank you for being my guest today.
 
Sam Mathews:
Thank you so much for having us. It was a joy.
 
Dan Mathews: (58:49 - 58:50)
It was a blast.
 
Laura Dugger:  (58:52 - 1:02:06)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
 
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
 
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
 
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
 
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
 
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
 
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

265_Servant Leadership Mentoring and Actionable Steps with Kathryn Spitznagle

265. Servant Leadership, Mentoring, and Actionable Steps with Kathryn Spitznagle
 
2 Timothy 2:2 (NIV) "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."
 
**Transcription Below**
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What are some servant leadership principles you've learned over the years?
How did you learn forgiveness is part of leadership?
Will you elaborate on a leadership tool mentioned in your book, which is called the "Hero Page?"
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
 
Kathryn Spitznagle is the author of "Rock Star Millennials--Developing the Next Generation of Leaders," and the companion workbook, "Rock Star Millennials Toolkit." She is a professional coach and the founder of Mentoring Women Millennials, LLC. She has 30+ years of mentoring, coaching and leadership development in corporate, small business and not-for-profit environments as well as 10+ years of mentoring cancer survivors and their families throughout their journey. Her mission is to foster the personal and professional development of leaders... for the life they lead today...and the one they want tomorrow.
 
Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode:
Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson
Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson
 
Additional Previous Episodes on Business and Leadership on The Savvy Sauce:
The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger
How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life with Dee Ann Turner
Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman
How to Lead When You're Not in Charge with Author and Pastor of North Point Community Church, Clay Scroggins
Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships 
Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine
Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright
How 2 questions can grow your business and change your life with author, pastor, and podcaster, Jeff Henderson
Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans
Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White
Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant
Generational Differences in the Workplace with Haydn Shaw
Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen
Leadership Training: Five Key Elements for Creating Customer Loyalty in Your Business with Elizabeth Dixon 
Uncover Your Purpose with Clarity with Isimemen Aladejobi
Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher
Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust
Divine Productivity with Matt Perman
223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence
Patreon 27 Re-Release: Purposeful and Practical with Emily Thomas
Special Patreon Re-Release: Creativity and Career While Raising a Family with Jean Stoffer
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
**Transcription**
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger:  (0:12 - 1:20)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 
 
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. 
 
Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy. 
 
Kathryn Spitznagle is my enchanting guest for today, and her resume is quite impressive, but what actually is even more of a standout is her humble heart.
 
So, if you are one who learns from stories and encouragement, and you also appreciate actionable, practical tools, this conversation is definitely for you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kathryn.
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:21 - 1:24)
Oh, thank you, Laura. Appreciate you having me.
 
Laura Dugger:  (1:24 - 1:32)
Well, I'd love for you just to start us off by giving us a snapshot of your background and also your current phase of life.
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:33 - 6:47)
Okay, lots of seasons. Yeah, learned, you know, you learn something from all of them. So, I started out in journalism.
 
I've kind of come back to my roots interviewing folks. I was a sports writer, so I grew up in a family with four brothers, so when I went to college, I knew sports, and at the time, that was unusual to have a female sports So I did that, and then went into publishing after I got my journalism degree, and since I'd been a sports writer, they put me in the men's division of this magazine publishing company. So, I started out learning, I started out working for a helicopter magazine, and I was an editor, and the only one that did know how to fly, and so they sent me to flight school in order to be a better editor and, you know, learn how to communicate with our readers.
 
And again, then because I'd done that and was in the men's division, they moved me then to shooting times, which was hunting and sports shooting. So, then I learned how to shoot guns and reload in that whole industry. From there, I went to fashion.
 
So, I went to the women's division, and at first they said, you know, are you sure you want to do this? And I said, well, this will be the first job you've put me on that won't kill me. You know, I've learned how to fly planes and shoot guns.
 
You know, let me have a shot at that Singer sewing machine. And I was a terrible seamstress. And they said, really, what we want you to do in fashion is to create a presence in New York, in Manhattan.
 
And so, the publisher was in Peoria, Illinois, but they wanted a presence in Manhattan. And so that's what I did for three years, worked remotely back and forth, and created that presence, joined the Fashion Group International. They hired three consultants to fix me up.
 
And so, I laugh if you've ever seen the movie Miss Congeniality, that was me. So, you know, learned all about the fashion industry and built those relationships with our advertisers. And also, then we went into television and did a lifetime, the TV show, weekly TV show on Lifetime called Make It Fashion.
 
And we're trying to blend that the home sewing industry with the fashion industry. So, if you saw this on the runway, in Milan, or in New York, or in Paris, this is how you can make it yourself, be your own designer kind of thing. So that was my journalism start, then moved to St. Louis, got married, had babies, and went into corporate communications, worked for Purina in St. Louis, where I learned so much about leadership, moved back to Peoria, and I went to work for Caterpillar. And when I retired from Caterpillar, then I started this business, Mentoring Women Millennials. And I have such a heart for this generation. I think they're so bright and smart and creative and entrepreneurial, and they get a bad rap.
 
And so, I wanted to have a platform to lift them up, and also to give them tools. So, the first year I wrote a book, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. And what I found, there were so many really sharp, bright millennials that had never had good leaders.
 
They never had a mentor. They didn't have the tools. Many of them were entrepreneurs.
 
They didn't intend to lead people. They had a craft. They started a business, and it grew.
 
And they're like, now I got people. What do I do with people? And as I was out speaking about my business, I found the audience very consistently had two types of attendees.
 
One was what I would call a seasoned leader, who said, for helping the millennials, thank you. Something along that line. And then I would have a young person stand up and say, “Do you have a book”?
 
And after that happened several times, okay, Lord, I got this. Yeah, write a book. And I remember saying, “That's a good idea, God, but I don't have time.”
 
And so if you want to know why COVID happened, it was me. Because the good Lord said, hey, it's February of 2020. It looks like you have time right now.
 
And so I hired an editor. We wrote a book in four months and published it at the end of the year. And in 2021, then started the podcast.
 
Laura Dugger:  (6:48 - 7:04)
Well, that's an incredible resume and such a whirlwind to getting here today. But you mentioned some leadership principles, especially at Purina. So, Kathryn, what are some of those servant leadership principles that you've learned and acquired over the years?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (7:04 - 9:34)
Over the years, yeah. Just some amazing leaders at Purina. Their culture was very much a servant leadership culture.
 
Purina as a company was created in the 1950s by an independently wealthy gentleman, William H. Danforth. And he created the Youth Foundation in St. Louis. And he found once he got kids out of gangs and out of jail and off drugs, nobody would hire them. So, he created a company to hire those kids, Purina. And so, they, yes, told us that, you know, the first day he said, you know, this is never confused what we make with why we're here.
 
We were here, we were created to develop people for life. What we make will change. But the reason we're here will not.
 
And Danforth also wrote a book called I Dare You. I Dare You to be the best you can be and help someone else do the same. And so that very first day we were told the story of the genesis of Purina, we were given that book, I Dare You.
 
And when we left orientation, we met, they had 360-degree mentoring. And they said, “This is how we create this culture. And we continue this for generations through mentoring.”
 
So, when you leave orientation, you're going to meet your leader mentor, your peer mentor, and in 90 days, you'll be mentoring. Everyone at Purina mentors, and we all learn from each other constantly. So that was the platform.
 
And that was the culture. And when you think about feeling cherished, and valued, that's how they did it. Because if you're going to mentor someone, and someone's going to mentor you, you have value.
 
And the people you're working with have value. And so that creating a cherished culture was their legacy. And then it's something that I took on to Caterpillar.
 
And I continue now, in my keynote speaking, that's one of the most popular is how to create a cherished culture in the boardroom, in the living room, and in the classroom. Hmm.
 
Laura Dugger:  (9:35 - 9:47)
And so, I won't ask for the entire keynote speech then, but is there an overview that you can give us of those things that we could implement that you've learned to implement over time as well?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (9:47 - 11:29)
Yes, some of the tools. And, and that was another wonderful thing about Purina that I saw then, and haven't seen it since. You know, it seemed unique to me at the time.
 
Fast forward a few years, and it was like, yeah, that was very unusual leadership. And one of the things that they valued was, know your people, understand them, know their needs, know their wants. Even at this point, so, you know, I'm talking 30 years ago, I went to work there in 1990.
 
They were talking about purpose. What's your purpose? Purina had a very specific purpose.
 
We are a purposeful company. We're here to develop people for life. And, and they even said, I thought this was unique to it at orientation.
 
They said, and we hire bright, smart people, and we don't expect you to stay here very long. Our job is to send you off better than we found you. And with a positive impression of Purina.
 
And here's why. When you leave here, you may go to another Fortune 50 company, which I did. You may be in a position to impact a merger or acquisition.
 
You can buy and sell our stock. And at the very least, when you go to the grocery store, you can buy dog food. And we want it to be Purina.
 
Laura Dugger:  (11:31 - 11:36)
That's incredible. That actually happened then with you taking that forward.
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (11:37 - 16:07)
And all of those lessons learned. So, when I talk about creating a cherished culture, Purina, one of the things they did very well was to introduce a concept, illustrate it with a story, and then activate it with a tool. So mentoring, they talked about here is the platform on which our company is built, developing people for life.
 
And they told us that story then about Purina. Then they gave us the book. And then they gave us a mentor that we were meeting with each week.
 
And they gave us a, what do I want to say, an outline. So, when you meet with your mentor or mentee, here are questions to ask. Here's a way to go about this.
 
And the number one reason people do mentor is because they don't know how. What's a process? And so how smart?
 
Purina's like, here. Here's an outline. Here are things to ask.
 
Here are discussion topics. And here are different tools we're going to give you as you progress in leadership. And they're designed for you then to pass on.
 
And so those are some of the tools when I talk about creating a cherished culture. One of the tools is here are questions to ask. Here's how to have that dialogue.
 
Here are discussion topics. When you're developing a relationship with this person, ask about their life outside of work. Ask about their family and friends and whatever, as much as they'd like to share.
 
Not everyone does. That's okay too. Ask about their best day at work.
 
What's a bad day at work? What's their best boss like? How do they like to be recognized?
 
What's their purpose? One of the most insightful questions they asked at Purina was, why do you want to succeed? And why do you want this company to succeed?
 
And those two questions give insight to someone's purpose. And so, then if you frame discussions around their purpose and their values, it is exponentially more meaningful to them. So, when I talk about how do you lead millennials and how is it different?
 
Those are a couple of the things. Understand their purpose. Understand their life. Their values outside of work, and frame things within their purpose.
 
Here's an example and or their values. If someone says, my values are hard work and transparency. I want people to be honest. Those are a couple of my values. 
 
Okay. So, if I were leading that person and I saw them being transparent with someone else, being open and honest, I would recognize them for that.
 
Not just recognize them for the work, but recognize them for their value, demonstrating their value. I saw you be open and honest with that person. Thank you for that.
 
If kindness is a value, I saw you. I saw what you did there today to help someone out without being asked. Thank you for that kindness.
 
That resonates on a whole different level. And if you have to have a tough discussion with that person to say, frame it in those words. I know you value honesty, and I do too.
 
And so, we need to have an honest conversation. And here's some things that I'm seeing in your behavior, in your leadership, or in your work style that can hold you back. So, let's fix this whole different way to lead.
 
Laura Dugger:  (16:09 - 16:39)
Absolutely. And I love how some of these even one-page practical tools you've included in the back of your book. So, it's a plug and play, but I'm even thinking back to your mentoring relationships where you had this circle of mentors and you were mentoring.
 
I think it's also helpful to get to hear one another's mistakes. So, are you comfortable sharing any mistakes that you've made along the way that actually even turned out to be beneficial learning opportunities?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (16:40 - 20:32)
Absolutely. Loads of them. I've got loads of them.
 
And one of the women I mentor has said, I think I've advanced my career 10 years by learning from your mistakes. And I love that. And she's like, now I'm going to make plenty of my own, but I'm not going to make yours.
 
And I said, “Good. That's the point of all this.” One of the big ones I made at Purina.
 
I think a lot of places I would have been fired, probably should have been. I was working in the marketing group, and we were like an internal marketing. So, we did the new product introduction, point of purchase, point of sale materials, the legal documents that went out, the whole packet that would go out to a distributor, a grocery store.
 
And EverReady Battery was one of our product lines. So, we had internal clients. And as they had new product introductions, we'd get the materials together.
 
We had in-house printing, all of the things, graphic design, and that was all under my purview. The letter, there's a letter that went out to distributors that was a legal document and had a number. And I pulled the wrong letter, the wrong number.
 
And it wasn't discovered until last minute. And we sat down with the client and they're like, oh my gosh, this is the wrong legal letter. And I, you know, I'm the account rep, that was on me.
 
So, I had to go back, I had to go to Neil Lewis, my boss and say, “Okay, we've got to pull this back before it all goes out, reprint, which is going to be all our expense. We're going to have to have people working off shifts and all that sort of thing to do it quickly. And then reassemble all these Eveready Battery packets and, you know, do as close as we can to meeting their deadline.”
 
And so basically it's going to eat up our margin and we're going to have more printing expense. We're going to have more labor and we're going to have some unhappy people. And our client's not real happy either.
 
And that was all me. And Neil said to me, “You know, I learned something today. And he said, until today, I thought you walked on water.”
 
And he said, “Now I know you're human, just like the rest of us.” And I thought, oh, my word. And he's like, okay, so what happened?
 
That was a mistake. How are we going to fix it? And I said, “I've already pulled the right letter, getting it reprinted. Here's the, additional time and money. Here's how it's going to impact our margin.” And he said, “You know, can we do it? And can we satisfy the customer and get, if not meet their deadline very close?”
 
And I said, “We can meet their deadline if we have people work third shift.” And, you know, and he said, “Okay, let's do it. That's the right thing to do.” And, and he said, Kathryn, “I told you what I learned today. What did you learn?”
 
And I said, “I learned how to be the kind of leader I want to be when someone makes a mistake.”
 
Laura Dugger:  (20:36 - 21:05)
Wow. The humility in that is incredible. And thank you for sharing.
 
Stories are so memorable. It makes me instantly reminded of two previous episodes. I'll make sure I link in the show notes, both with Jeff Henderson and Steve Robinson, accomplished businessmen, but who were also willing to share stories and how just like you, it actually made them a better, more relatable leader.
 
And so that's encouraging.
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (21:06 - 21:34)
And I knew when I got to Caterpillar and, uh, particularly when I was running the Caterpillar visitor center, because that was so new and never been done in Caterpillar. And so, we're going to make some mistakes and we're going to learn, you know, along the way. And there was more than one occasion where I was reminded of Neil Lewis.
 
And I said, okay, I learned something today. You are human. Just like the rest of us.
 
Now, how are we going to fix this?
 
Laura Dugger:  (21:35 - 23:48)
And then what did you learn? 
 
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You've had so much experience in different areas and as a corporate leader. So what is it that drew you specifically to have a heart for millennials, which we can define as those approximately born between the 1980s and early 2000s?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (23:50 - 28:18)
I really started working with them. My last role at Caterpillar, I was a director of global sustainability and it was within public affairs. So, we were leading, Caterpillar was leading a natural infrastructure coalition.
 
I was working with a lot of different entities, public, private, governmental. We're trying to get language passed into law. That was a big portion of my job.
 
Another portion of my job was to be out speaking about what Caterpillar was doing in the world of sustainability. And I loved that. What I found was the sustainability groups of Caterpillar employees all around the world, we do a global call quarterly, learning what everybody was doing.
 
They were all this age group. And when we would do the river cleanup on Saturday, these are the people that showed up with their kids. And when we do tree plantings, these are the people that showed up with their kids.
 
It's like, okay. And I remember saying to my peers, you know what, this group of employees, these young people are not going to retire with a pension like we are with health care like we do. There's so many things that we have garnered through our career appropriately.
 
They don't have that. What drives loyalty for them and what engages them with Caterpillar are these things. These things we're doing through the foundation where we're giving back and improving the world and the things we're doing in sustainability, giving back, improving the world.
 
They are so much more engaged in our company through these things. And so, I kind of knew, I thought, okay, I'm not sure exactly where the Lord is leading, but it's going to be with those people. And that was the thing I knew when I retired that, okay, this is what I want to do.
 
And then the more I worked, you know, I started the business mentoring women millennials. The more I worked with these young women, the more I saw, yes, there's a need. There's a need here.
 
And I always, you know, again, people would ask, why? Why are you so connected? And I said, first of all, I saw the value in them.
 
But secondly, I think I was one. My husband and I laughed that we never really fit in with our generation. And here's why.
 
We both were out of school and working on our careers when we met. And in our generation, you got married right out of high school, or at the very least right out of college. And so, you know, our families had given up.
 
They're like, they're never going to get married. They're working. They got this whole career thing going.
 
And so, when we got married, well, then we didn't have children until we were in our 30s. You know, highly irregular for our generation. We were entrepreneurial.
 
So, we were looking at franchises in our 20s. And our families were like, just get a job. What is this?
 
You got to buy something and then you buy something else. And my husband owned a business, his first business in his 30s. We both had side hustles.
 
Again, friends and family were like, just do one job. What is with you guys? Always got all these things, you know, going.
 
And then when I took the job in fashion, and I was working in Manhattan and living in Peoria, like, what do you even call that kind of work to call it remote? Working remotely? Yeah.
 
And so, I think part of my heart for them is I was one. And so, when they talk about some of the struggles and the things that are endearing to them, like, I got you. I felt like that, too.
 
Laura Dugger:  (28:20 - 28:57)
That is incredible. And I think it really does make you the perfect person for that mentor mentee relationship. And I kind of want to camp out on that further, because we've alluded to it.
 
And some of these tips are in your book, where you highlight those discussion topics that give people the tools. But then if we take it a step further or personalize it, how can all of us as listeners begin a mentoring relationship like the one you've described? And I'm even thinking of the beginning point.
 
Do you think it's up to the mentor or the mentee to initially reach out?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (28:58 - 33:07)
Either one. Yeah, either one can work. When I left Purina, having had this wonderful leadership experience and mentoring environment, I thought, well, this must be what all corporations are like.
 
No. Doesn't make them bad. They're just different.
 
So, when I got to Caterpillar that was male, very male dominated, I remember calling my mentor at Purina, who is still my mentor today. She mentored me for 22 years at Caterpillar after I left Purina. And then was one of the biggest proponents of me writing my book and starting my business.
 
And we still get together today. So, when they talk about developing people for life, they're very serious about that. And so, when I got to Caterpillar, I thought, well, they don't seem to have this.
 
I think I'll start a mentoring program. Well, I was, you know, some little gal in marketing. You're not going to start a mentoring program for a Fortune 50 company out of that spot.
 
It comes up through HR and Office of Business Practices and Legal and all of that. Anyway, I called my mentor at Purina, very frustrated, and I said, “Lynn, you and Neil make a place for me. I'm coming back.
 
They don't have a mentoring program here.” I don't, you know, and she said, “Okay, first of all, we didn't train you up to come back. Your job is to take this forward.”
 
And she said, “Are there young women there?” Yes. And she said, “Mentor them.”
 
And she said, “Are there leaders that need support?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Okay, support them.”
 
She said, “Are there teams that need to be built?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Then you have good work to do there.”
 
Go. And she hung up. I thought, OK.
 
And so, from that moment on, when I would see an announcement that would come through email where a woman was being hired into Caterpillar, I would reach out to her and just say, do you have a mentor or would you like one? And for 22 years, they all said yes. And so that's what I did.
 
I worked with those women. And, you know, here's another God wink when my announcement went out, then that I was retiring. These women all started coming back to me wherever they were in the nation and even in the world.
 
Many of them had gone on to do other things, bigger, better things. And they all started reaching out to me. Someone had forwarded the announcement to them and said, “We want you to start a business, a mentoring business and help others just like you helped us, and we will help you.”
 
And one said, “You need to write a book, and I'll write the forward.” Another one said, “Yes, and you need to do podcasts and I'll be on one.” Another one said, “I know what's going to stop you at your website, so I'm going to help you with your website.”
 
Another one said, “You're going to need testimonials.” So, she posted on social media that anyone that's ever been mentored by Kathryn Spitznagel, leave a message here. Very humbling.
 
And another one said, “I'm now VP of a big company in Chicago and I will hire you.” And so, I retired one day and started a business the next.
 
Laura Dugger:  (33:09 - 33:30)
Incredible how that all came back around. And I gleaned so much from your stories in your book, and then even getting to connect with you before today. But there's another story about servant leadership that you shared from the man who you've named your previous boss, Neil Lewis.
 
Will you share? Do you know which one I'm thinking of?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (33:31 - 36:35)
Yeah. You need to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. Okay.
 
So, Neil Lewis had leadership meetings. There were 12 of us were his leadership team every Monday morning. He was also a minister outside of work.
 
So, a lot of times we would laugh that we were getting the rehash of the sermon from yesterday as part of his leadership. But he often gave us assignments. And one Monday morning, he said, okay, here's your assignment.
 
I want you to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. And they need to be things that aren't in their personnel file. And he said, I'm going to ask you sometime this week about one of those people, but you won't know which one.
 
So, you need to know all of them. And I, you know, lousy leader, I was just learning. And I said, Neil, I have 10 people, three things, 10 people, that's 30 things I got to know.
 
And he said, Kathryn, good math. You have some work to do. So, I went back, and I interviewed each one of my 10 people, three things, found him out, followed the assignment.
 
And I was ready. And I saw him in the hall later in the week. He said, “Kathryn, walk with me. I'm going to the next meeting.” I said, “Okay.” Tell me three personal things about Kathy, who works for you. I said, “Okay.”
 
Kathy has recently divorced. Uh, she has an 18-month-old baby, and she is moving to a new apartment. And he said, “What have you done to help her?”
 
And honest to God, I said, “That wasn't part of the assignment.” And he looked at me and I said, “No, wait a minute. I did help her.
 
I changed her hours. She has a longer commute now into St. Louis. So, she's going to come in at 8:30 am and work till 5:00 pm.”
 
And I was feeling pretty proud of myself, like bonus question. And he said, “Did she come to you, or did you go to her?” And I said, “Well, she came to me, but I said, it was okay.”
 
So, Kathryn know your people. If you don't know your people, you don't know what they need. And if you don't know what they need, you can't help them.
 
And if you can't help them, what in the world are you doing here? It says leaders were here to serve. And if you're not here to serve, you need to step out.
 
I became a different leader that day. One who chose to lead by serving.
 
Laura Dugger:  (36:38 - 37:17)
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Kathryn Spitznagle: (37:18 - 38:19)
You know, the other piece, uh, the other thing that he taught me there, uh, Laura, as we continued to walk, uh, because he always wanted to bring things back around to, to a positive. He was going to make his point, but he was not going to leave me there, you know? He said, Kathryn, “Do you understand what you missed there?”
 
It was such a missed opportunity with Kathy, um, to engage her and to help her feel cherished. He said, “That's the difference when you anticipate someone's needs and you go to them before they ask. That's the opportunity.”
 
That's the gold. That's what engages people and, uh, garners their loyalty. And that's when they feel cherished.
 
That was the real missed opportunity.
 
Laura Dugger:  (38:23 - 38:35)
And that never left you. And that's probably blessed so many people hearing that. What about lessons of forgiveness in leadership as well?
 
Do you have any stories to illustrate that?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (38:35 - 42:28)
Yes. And that's another lesson from, from Neil Lewis that was a profound lesson for me that I've never heard anywhere else. Forgiveness is part of leadership. So, I learned this, um, again, lousy leader just starting out.
 
And, um, when he put me into leadership, I was like, how hard could it be? Tell people what to do. They do it.
 
And then came my first employee opinion survey results and they were bad. The numbers were bad. The comments were bad.
 
The people were unhappy. Um, and the comments to me were, were hurtful. They were justified, but they were hurtful.
 
And so, when I got, uh, you know, got all the information, I left, I was upset. The next day when I came into the office, I just went into my office and closed the door. I thought they don't want to talk to me.
 
I don't want to talk to them. That's fine. I was working here.
 
So, Neil gave me a little time to cool off. And then he came in and, um, on my desk, uh, one of the things that they, um, Purina does in terms of creating that cherished culture is, um, to have things around you that revitalize you. And so, they ask you one of the first days about what, what are things that revitalize you?
 
And I said, okay, uh, fresh flowers revitalize me. They remind me of my grandmother, nanny, and being in the garden. Um, notes are cards from handwritten, you know, from friends and family and a walk outside.
 
Those are three things that revitalize me. Okay. So again, I registered with Neil Lewis.
 
He knew that was a way to frame things for me. So, when he came in that morning, he picked up one of the cards from my desk and he handed it to me and he said, to read that card. And I said, you can read it.
 
He said, “No. No, I'm asking you to read it out loud to me.” So, it was a card from someone on my team, very complimentary about my leadership style and what it, how it impacted them. And he said, “Is that the leader you are today?”
 
And I said, “No, but in fairness, they were mean to me. They said some very hurtful things and yeah, I'm not happy.” He said, “Okay.”
 
And he said, “Kathryn, as leaders, our job is to give first and give again”. And he said, “Do you know what the bridge is between giving first and giving again?” And I said, “No.”
 
I said, “Neil, I'm not tracking with you.” And he said, “Forgive.” And I said, “Oh, forgiveness.”
 
And he said, “Nope. Forgiveness is something someone else does. That's a noun. Forgive is a verb. And that's what I need to see you do. Forgive.”
 
He said, “Kathryn, forgiveness is a big part of leadership and it's something that will hold you back for the rest of your life. So, I am asking you today to be the leader I know you to be and forgive them.”
 
Laura Dugger:  (42:32 - 42:52)
Well, in even the way he modeled that in the way you shared that story, it also reminds me of another leadership tool that you mentioned in your book, which I think if somebody is experiencing this, that could be a really practical next step. So, it's called the hero page. Will you elaborate on that for us?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (42:52 - 52:07)
Yes. And so, at Purina, when they talked about having these one-on-ones with your team, with your mentees, with your mentors, kind of framing the dialogue in three buckets, called it three bucket exercise. And I still, this is how I still mentor today.
 
Uh, so the first thing we ask people to come prepared with is bucket one. What are we celebrating? What have you learned? What have you accomplished? What has gone so well?
 
Um, since the last time we spoke, because we, as people, but particularly as women pass through things very quickly and go, yep, done good onto the next. Yeah. We don't take that time to celebrate.
 
And Purina was very focused on what they called reveling. Take just a minute to revel. That was good work, did good work, but whatever was accomplished personal and professional, it was, there were things at home, baby slept four hours straight.
 
Okay. So, bucket one, what are we celebrating? 
 
Um, so bucket one, they called aha. 
 
Bucket two, they called, hmm, what is, uh, what's out there that you need to, um, do, you know, what's on your to-do list. Is there something you need to get a plan for?
 
Um, is there something that you want to talk through that's kind of on your assignment board, something like that. And we'll talk through some tactics. 
 
Bucket three is what in the world.
 
So, anything that seems overwhelming, uh, caught you by surprise. You didn't know it was part of the job. You didn't know it was part of life.
 
Those are the things we want to talk about in bucket three, every time. So, you want me to tell you the things that are overwhelming me and that I don't know where to start. Yes.
 
Yes. Every week, because here's what we'll do. We will take the power out of that.
 
Once you, that's it. We're going to fix it and say, okay, this is what's overwhelming me. This is what I'm anxious about.
 
This is what caught me by surprise. And we're going to figure out how to break it down into something actionable. And then we're going to move it to bucket two.
 
And next week, we're going to be talking about those action steps and pretty soon it's going to move to bucket one. There you go. We're celebrating that process that I learned at Purina still did at Caterpillar and doing today.
 
Um, that just warms my heart. Uh, when I see, um, the folks that I've worked with who've now gone on to do other things. And, uh, one of the guys on my team at Caterpillar, um, now works for McDonald's in Chicago.
 
And he said that Kathryn, that's our onboarding process. And so, anybody that comes through his team in McDonald's, that's what they learn how to do. And he said that it was just gold.
 
And you can talk about creating a safe space, but again, the difference with Purina was they gave you a tool, not ours, we are a cherished culture. We create a safe space. And you know what, here's how, by asking this question and by setting aside time to answer it and wrestle with it and work through it.
 
Now, having said all that, where do you put this information as you're learning this about this person? Uh, you're learning what they're celebrating. You're learning, um, what their values are.
 
You're learning what they like to do outside of work. What's important to them learning about their purpose. That's a hero page.
 
And so, they gave us a tool and they said, you know, it's very simple, a hero page. You, you just record things that you have learned about this person that you respect and admire about them. And you can do one for yourself.
 
They ask you to do the first one for you. Um, but then also to do them for, you can do them for a peer or a leader. Um, you can also do them for someone you're struggling with because oftentimes we aren't really looking for the positives in that person.
 
So, the, uh, the logic behind the hero page is once you've created it, uh, you're going to look for things to put on it. Positives, all positives, negatives we remember. Positives we're looking for and that's the first reason. 
 
The second reason for a hero page is you may have a tough day with that person sometime. And if you do, you go back and look at your hero page and it puts things in perspective.
 
Yeah, this isn't going well today, but here are the things I respect and admire about this person. And yes, um, perspective. 
 
The third reason is they may have a tough day sometime and what an incredible gift you can be to them.
 
Here's an example. When I worked at Caterpillar, um, had wonderful leaders, some remarkable women leaders at Caterpillar, I think because there were so few of them, they were rock stars. And one that I worked for, uh, was sent to Beijing, China on a short term, like a, I don't know, six month or one year assignment as it at the same time, I was also mentoring someone in that Beijing office and it was very remote.
 
They were, in a remote area, creating an office, creating an HR office, you know, where they, where there's a factory and the person I was mentoring said, you know, let me give you an idea of what we're struggling with here. What kind of, what our situation is. And I'm at corporate and I said, well, whatever it is, I think I could send you some of our signage, some of our value signs.
 
Those are, those are, that's what you need. I'll send you some value signs. You can put them up on your walls.
 
And she said, Kathryn, we don't have walls. We're working out of a tent. And she said, each morning we send a bus out to the rural areas here in China and it stops to pick up workers.
 
And if dad can't go, he sends mom. And if mom can't go, she puts a couple of kids on the bus. And we never know from day to day who's coming to work.
 
What we do know is that the bus will be full. They will get two meals while they're at work, breakfast and lunch. And then when it returns them home, they will have gotten paid.
 
She said, we are all but paying people and chickens. Do you understand the situation, the gravity of what we're trying to do to come in here and create an office and HR processes? And she said, first, we're trying to determine who our employees are.
 
I said, “Oh, our leader is struggling”. And she said, “Will you get on a call with her today?” I said, “Give me a minute.”
 
And she said, “You're going to get her hero page.” So, we got on the call. Lois, “Kathryn, is this the woman that led one of the first NPI projects for Caterpillar as a woman with our flagship tractor?”
 
And she said, “Yes.” I said, “Is this the woman who was handed a belt buckle and a t-shirt and created global merchandising stores all around the world?” And she said, “Yes.”
 
I said, “Is this the woman who has been married 30 plus years happily, raised two remarkable children and showed us all it was possible?” Yes. I said, “I don't know what you're struggling with today, but I do know the woman who did these things can tackle this.”
 
What a gift you would be to another leader on the day that they needed it in that moment, just to remind them of their value.
 
Laura Dugger:  (52:10 - 52:40)
That encouragement is so powerful. And you're such an engaging storyteller. And like you had mentioned previously, you've gone on from corporate America to now beginning your own business, including your podcast that will link to Rockstar Millennials.
 
So, I'm curious, Kathryn, are there any stories from those podcast episodes that really come to mind as you think of any standout lessons or your favorites?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (52:41 - 55:51)
Oh my gosh. There are so many. It just seems like when I think I can't meet someone any more incredible, I do.
 
And again, good Lord's hand, they come from all different paths. We're international now. A couple of them that really stand out to me, Michael Kuzma,: he invented the self-playing guitar.
 
He knew people in his life who had either never been able to play the guitar and wanted to, or they had experienced some sort of an injury or illness that then prevented them from doing what they loved. And so, he created this and just said, “I want this to bring joy and be fun for people.” And I guess the part of the platform that I have for the podcast is purpose.
 
How are you living your purpose? Khushi Shah is 19 years old. So, she's a little bit younger than a millennial even.
 
Created a company called Drizzl and it is an informed, what I want to say, it's an irrigation company. And she created this as a science project in grade school. She's now in college at MIT and Harvard and Northeastern.
 
So, she's attending classes at all. She went to a science and math school in Chicago for high school, finished early and took a gap year at 17. And I said, “So you traveled?”
 
And she said, “Nope, I decided I'd just run that business full-time, Drizzl.” And so, her families of Indian descent. They'd gone to India and seen the need for water, clean water.
 
And she said, coming back to the States, I saw sprinklers, lawn sprinklers running and it was raining. And I thought, I need to fix that. There are products on the market that will turn a sprinkler off if it's raining.
 
Her product is predictive. She's 19. Yeah.
 
So, folks from St. Jude, folks from Midwest Food Bank, just incredible. Obviously, I can't name one.
 
There are so many. And those who are living their purpose in all walks of life, in all places around the world, I want to talk to.
 
Laura Dugger:  (55:52 - 56:07)
Wow. And Kathryn, you've invested in so many people and highlighted so many people through your podcast. As you look back, what are you happiest that you invested your life in?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (56:09 - 57:07)
Well, I'm a mom, boy mom. So that would have to be my first, my boys. Again, one of the women that I mentor said to me early on, Kathryn, one of the things I love the most is you're from the other side.
 
I said, Kelsey, what does that mean? I'm from the other side. And she said, you've already done all of this.
 
You've done the corporate life. You understand small business. You have a decades long, happy marriage.
 
You've raised your boys. They're happy. They're successful.
 
If you did this, we can do this and you can help us. And so that investment on so many levels, yeah, is coming back.
 
Laura Dugger:  (57:08 - 57:19)
I love that. And would you be willing just to share anything else about your business or what all you have to offer so that we can continue learning from you after this conversation?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (57:20 - 1:00:49)
Oh, absolutely. So, the book that you mentioned, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. That's the book.
 
And it recounts so many of these leadership stories. And then in the back, as you said, are the different tools. And I have to credit the Caterpillar engineers because when I went to Caterpillar and I would tell these stories about Purina or I would live something that they had taught me.
 
Very early on, in the meeting, or after the meeting, some of these gentlemen came up to me and said, “That thing you just did in that meeting, can you write that down? Like what?” And they said, “Like the words and or the process.”
 
And so, it began. So, I'd start writing down the words and they might put a graphic with it or somehow improve it. And so, through the years, this same group kept coming back to me.
 
And when they saw the announcement that I was retiring, they showed up again and said, “Okay, we need one more thing, a spreadsheet.” What do you mean a spreadsheet? They said, “You know, all through the years, we have all of these tools now that we've created out of your head on this paper that we can use and we're using.”
 
If you can give us a spreadsheet that says, “If you're having this leadership issue, use this tool.” So, God bless the engineers.
 
So, I credit them, and the tools are in the back of the hard book.
 
What I found when I started doing workshops was people didn't want to write in the book and they also wanted something bigger and they wanted a place to make notes and doodle and that sort of thing. So that's why we have the book and then the toolkit. So, my business is Mentoring Women Millennials and I do one on one mentoring with individuals, small business primarily.
 
They'll bring me in to work with their women leaders, but also just individuals who are in some sort of a transition in life or that have never had a mentor and would like one. And so, I do the one-on-one mentoring also with nonprofits. And I'm now an 18-year breast cancer survivor, still in treatment.
 
And I also mentor breast cancer survivors. And keynote speaking. I work with the Capital City Speakers Bureau.
 
And so, I do speaking there and I'm prepping for a TED Talk. So those are the next things.
 
Laura Dugger:  (1:00:50 - 1:01:16)
I love it. Always something up your sleeve. We will link to your website so that people can follow up and get in touch if that would be a good partnership.
 
And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Kathryn, what is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:01:18 - 1:01:49)
Um, when I left Purina, um, I asked Neil, “You know, how do I ever repay this company that has given so much to me?” And he said, “Take what you've learned and help someone else.” And so, if you learn from me, that would be my ask, help someone else.
 
Laura Dugger:  (1:01:50 - 1:02:05)
I love that. Amen. Great Savvy Sauce.
 
And Kathryn, you're just so poised and classy and full of insight. And it was an absolute pleasure to get to host you as my guest today. So, thank you for being my guest.
 
Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:02:05 - 1:02:07)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
 
Laura Dugger:  (1:02:09 - 1:05:52)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
 
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
 
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
 
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
 
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
 
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
 
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
 
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
 
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
 
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.