*The Savvy Sauce*

Parenting 0-18 With an Eternal Perspective: An Interview with Jessica Smartt (Episode 286)

Parenting 0-18 With an Eternal Perspective: An Interview with Jessica Smartt (Episode 286)
 
Hebrews 12:11 NIV “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it"
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Jessica Smartt is the author of Come On Home, Memory-Making Mom and Let Them Be Kids. She graduated college with an English degree, a religion minor and a hankering to pour into kids. After teaching middle school literature for five years, she was promoted to her current position and dream job: wife, homeschooling mom, author, and Professional Encourager of Intentional Moms. She lives in sunny North Carolina on a family farm with horses, chickens, and an ever-increasing number of beloved cats. She and her husband, Todd, have three beautiful children. She loves to energize everyday moms to save childhood and build close-knit families. Jessica’s favorites include: bike rides, spinach quiche, a clean kitchen, being warm, national parks, and food that anyone else made. Connect with Jessica through Instagram or her website.
 
Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What questions can we ask ourselves as mothers to take inventory and get real about our capacity, health, and gifts?
How can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be and we do too?
Will you share a handful of your other favorite practical tips for building a strong family that we haven’t covered yet?
 
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:14)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:15 - 1:23) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.
 
My returning guest for today is Jessica Smartt. She has authored another brilliant book entitled, Come On Home: A Grace-Filled Guide to Raising a Family Who Loves (and Likes) Each Othe. You're not going to want to miss a minute of this episode because she answers every question with kindness and eternal wisdom, yet she still manages to share plenty of fun ideas and applicable tips.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jessica.
 
Jessica Smartt: (1:25 - 1:28)  Thanks so, much for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:44) Well, I've been looking so, forward to this, and it's been a few years since you were a guest on The Savvy Sauce, so, as you're looking back, can you just walk us through how your motherhood experience has changed from the early days to now currently?
 
Jessica Smartt: (1:46 - 3:36) Yeah, it has changed so, much, and I actually was thinking about this just on my own. God is so, good, and I don't know if everyone's experience is kind of like this. I look around and see very high-functioning young mothers, so, I'm thinking maybe not, but I just feel like those first couple years were such a struggle with a lot of mental illness and just anxiety, and probably that led into depression, too, and just feeling really overwhelmed. I do feel like a lot of it was sleep deprivation, which is a literal torture technique that armies use, so, I think just caring for my body better has actually been a huge thing, but also just God is just so, kind, and I think I mentioned in the book of just really early on having this moment where I thought I'm not any good to anybody, and I didn't fast-forward to see any of this, right?  I didn't know how it was going to end. I just knew I felt terrible, and I couldn't function and overcome with anxiety, and everything was blurry and overwhelming, and so, to then fast-forward and see personally in my own life the rewards of my kids are doing well, and I like being a mom a lot, and professionally that I'm even writing about it is stunning, so, it's a real redemption story to me, and just proof that also God uses those pits because it was out of that that I was able to actually gain traction even on my blog sharing about my personal experience and loss and weakness. God used that, so, I'm really grateful.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:45) That's incredible to get just a little picture of that journey, and can you update us with your kids' ages now as of today?
 
Jessica Smartt: (3:45 - 3:59) Yes, so, I have a 16-year-old boy. Last week we were visiting college, and that is very weird, and then a 14-year-old boy and an 11-year-old daughter.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:00 - 4:19) Okay, wonderful. So, regardless of what phase we're in as parents, do you have any recommendations for questions that we can begin to ask ourselves so that we can take inventory and get real about our capacity and our health and our gifts?
 
Jessica Smartt: (4:20 - 7:00) Right, yes, so, in Come on Home, that's kind of how I kick it off because I say, you know, you can't have the family that if in order to have the family you want or the home you want, you have to be honest about what you actually have and what you're starting with, and so, part of that is taking inventory of yourself and your life, and that's not something we often stop to do in the chaos and busyness, so, I asked what your capacity is and really just trying to help mom just think through preaching to myself here, like all the things that are on our plate, and is there something on our plate that the Lord maybe is not calling us to or that doesn't correlate and match to what our really core values are in life, and those are hard questions to ask, but they actually bring a lot of relief to just be honest with yourself about what's happening in your life and coming before the Lord and saying, you know, I'd literally say, like, make a list of all the things that you're doing and look at it and see if you should take any off, and the list is, you know, stunningly long for a lot of us, but yeah, so, that's just capacity, just kind of thinking through where we are and what we actually have the bandwidth to do, and then I talk about health and actually asking, like, your husband, if you're married, you know, how would you like me to care for myself better? What's one thing that you like when I do? And a lot of times I think we're really surprised when we hear the things they appreciate or what they'd like us to do, and they might just be giving us a really wonderful gift to go invest in an area in our life that we've been overlooking. So, and then gifts, that's a really fun one, too, because I'm not you and you're not me, and we're not the listeners, but God has uniquely equipped all of us to be the mom and the homemaker, you know, in our particular callings.
 
So, saying, like, are you a good organizer? Are you, you know, the fun mom, right, that I wish I was and I'm not? Are you, you know, the adventurer mom? Are you the crafty mom? You know, God has given, do you cook well and, you know, enjoy that? And everybody has a gift, that you're, whether you're, you know, a soft place to land for your kids and a good listener, or you're, you know, more drill sergeant-y, like those firstborns tend to be, and that is me, so, that's why I can say that. But just thinking about, like, what skills and gifts did God give me to lead my family well? And so, that was just kind of the ground-tilling up work before you think through, like, how can we build the family that we really want with the life that we actually have and the person we really are?
 
Laura Dugger: (7:01 - 8:14) And I love, that was one of the aspects of the book that I just appreciated. You sprinkle all these insightful questions throughout, and it is really great to reflect on those with the Lord or with the journal or in conversation, but you're encouraging us repeatedly to get a long-term vision of this parenting journey. And so, it makes me think, my husband works with Chick-fil-A, and oftentimes he's encouraged to be careful not to just get caught up working in the business, but to pull back and work on the business, and it's actually better for everybody. And I just think as parents, we need that same reminder to kind of lift up our eyes, get a different view, and get above these urgent, incessant needs of today and look at where we're going. And I think the Bible speaks a lot to that with being prudent. And you challenge us with that long-term view to actually take an eternal view in parenting, which is inevitably going to impact how we steward our time and our decision making. So, can you speak to both of those?
 
Jessica Smartt: (8:16 - 10:23) Yeah, I mean, the eternal, the perspective, I think I said, you know, there's the Bible verse about you reap what you sow, and we think of it as like a cautionary warning. And it is, but it's also just a true statement of how life works, meaning what you invest in, and what you spend your time in, what you care about, what the things you're actually doing is where you're going to see growth. And so, if I am investing in my home, I'm going to see fruit in there. Now, of course, it's not a one-to-one, it's not a slot machine. So, you know, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. And God is so, good to cover up even over the areas that we've done a bad job in. But in general, you can't expect to grow cucumbers if you've been planting tomatoes. Like what you've been planting in the ground is what's going to grow up. And so, that's just like, even though it's kind of like fancy wordy language, it's always just a good reminder to me to think like, what am I actually spending my time doing?
 
I want a family that, like I was a recipient of, that's warm and inviting and you want to be around. And in order to get that, like you have to plant it. And so, that's a lot of being present as a mom and which is so, hard, very hard. But I just wanted to not lay a burden on moms, but really just encourage them like, do those things that are going to reap the life you actually want in the long term.  And of course, you mentioned the word eternity, that's planning, building disciples. And so, that is a very long road. You know, you're not going to always see the fruit of that, you know, immediately. But keeping our eye on, you know, I want to raise kids that are living out the calling that God has placed on their lives and are going out into this world to be truth and light. Like, oh my goodness, so, many hard, boring conversations that you have to have, but you have to, like that's, that's part of the equation.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:26 - 11:35) I think that even that piece is with discipline too, which is one of my least favorite parts of parenting. I don't know if others relate to that, but a verse that I find so, encouraging is Hebrews 12:11, that "no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." And so, I love that encouragement you're giving to a parent for the long view, and you bring up your family of origin. You write so much about this gratitude you have for your parents and something you wrote really stuck with me where you say someone was always home, both physically and metaphorically, someone was paying attention. So, Jessica, what caution do you want to share with any parents today who may be tempted to let go a little too early, a little too soon and too young, whether that's with technology or even just being physically present?
 
Jessica Smartt: (11:36 - 14:25) I think it's just so, important for moms and dads to receive their instructions, not from the world, but from the Lord, because the culture right now is okaying and even encouraging parenting that is not godly parenting. We have so many distractions and we are pulled towards our phones, towards our own personal growth and flourishing, which is okay. You know, of course we want us to be healthy as we just mentioned, but at the expense of the kids that God has put in our lives, that is what, that is the messaging you're going to receive from the world. If you're hanging out with people who do not have a biblical worldview, that is going to be how they're spending their time.  And it's not a judgment statement. It's just, it is an observation that they, that is not, the focus is not, I'm going to sit and, you know, maybe at one point culturally years and years ago, it really was more family oriented, but it is not anymore.  It just simply is not. And, you know, it masquerades under that as, you know, oh, we're all going to the soccer game together and we're going to go watch the gymnastics performance or whatever it is. But that, that is not always true discipling of your children.
 
That's kind of being present in a cursory way and not truly and really, to really pay attention and really be present with your kids is going to look vastly different than what the rest of the world is doing.  And if it doesn't, you got to check. And I, I'm saying this as absolutely of myself, you know, there are moms that are just on their phone, and I can do that as well. I've had to put in, we can talk about specifics, but I've had to put in like specific things in my, in my actual phone, you know, and in my life parameters and guidelines so that I'm not doing that. But no one in the world is going to tell you not to, that's normal to just be stuck on your phone as a mom, as a kid, whatever. And so, a like, where are you getting your voice? That's saying how to parent, who are the voices that are speaking into your life?  Are you listening to older and wiser mentors? Are you reading really good books? Are you putting yourself in the word first thing in the morning or are you just floating around with whatever culture says to do? And I don't mean to sound judgy here because I am deeply convicted even as I'm speaking this of like, am I living this? I'm not always, it's very, very hard. But I just think we first, first step is, you know, to orient yourself to the Lord and how would he have you parent?  Not what is everyone else okay with doing? Cause it's going to look very different.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:26 - 16:54)  Okay. I love that with kind of the emphasis on; it does require a sacrifice from us with that quality and quantity time. And it makes me think on page 38 of your book, you encourage us to take the time to know each child, helping them find their passion, abilities, gifts, and interests.  And that really does bless both the child and the parent. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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So, Jessica, what has this looked like in your home? And can you give us some ideas?
 
Jessica Smartt: (16:56 - 19:19) Yeah, I just think it is so, easy for us to have our own expectations of what our kids are, and even to speak that over them from the minute they come out of the womb, whether it's, oh, we've just pinned them as to be this, or it's something that we are, or something that we want them to be. But instead to look and see like, who is this actual child that's been created? And I thought of, you know, years and years ago, my son was like, itching to do something, you know, they get to be like nine, 10. And they start feeling like, you know, they need something other than mom in the house. And we were kind of praying about it and thinking it through. And he said, “I think I really would like to play soccer.”
 
And at the time, we were pretty, pretty committed into the baseball world. And I was like, no, you know, I had friendships with the parents, and we liked the coach, and we were already there. And soccer was this whole thing I didn't even know, you know, I was like, no.  And honestly, I waited for a year or two. But now my both my boys are in a semi travel league. It's not like all out driving all across the country, but they've been able to play at a higher level.  And they're doing amazing. It's clearly what they were meant to do. And I couldn't miss out on that just by being like, no, you know, that's not what you do.
 
Like, you know, so, just being open as a parent to really like, what are they good at? And it may not be what you thought it may not be what you are good at. My daughter loves to make a giant mess in the kitchen, giant and cook. And oh, my goodness, it is very hard for me because I'm like a keep it clean.  Don't use all the ingredients. But I've been convicted to really, you know, let her explore these gifts. I have a friend whose daughter is making these elaborate birthday cakes. I mean, like the most crazy food network kind of thing. And I saw it and thought, I know what that kitchen must have looked like when you let her do that. That was a lot of days and afternoons of you letting her waste the flour and make a big mess.  But the fruit is, it's incredible. And, so, yeah, sacrificing what we want to let them grow into, you know, and God is so, good.
 
Like if we don't know what it is, pray with your kid, like you, what did you, what is your thing?  What do you think God's made you to do? We, you know, need an activity. What, what, let's ask God, like what he wants you to do. I've never prayed a prayer like that that hasn't been answered and never.
 
Laura Dugger: (19:20 - 19:47)  Oh, that's so, good. I mean, we think of for friendship for ourselves or with our children or activities that they want to do, just hopefully that's what we keep being reminded of is bring it to the Lord rather than seeking out those voices and culture and see what his perfect plan is. But you also write an entire chapter on the power of time. So, will you share some of your applicable wisdom here?
 
Jessica Smartt: (19:49 - 22:15)  Yes. And you know, don't mind me while I actually get out the book, because even though you wrote it, sometimes you're like, what exactly did I say? Um, but thinking through like activities that our family has signed up for, as I mentioned, you know, I was kind of like connected in that baseball mindset.  And so, was it actually the right thing for my kids? Maybe or maybe not. And so, I talked through like at questions to ask, you know, as a husband and wife about where our family's going and what activities our kids are doing, which is a giant question today.
 
I don't think parents are thoughtful enough about what they're signing up for and what they're doing. And you get, you know, mid-November and your schedule is completely packed and your kids having meltdowns and you're never eating dinner together. And you're like, how did we get to this life? But it was a little bit of like, not quite following the path ahead mentally to see what it would look like. And I would just encourage anybody right now that it's not too late to rearrange, even if you have to quit something, even if it costs a deposit, even if you have to back out, like we are not as trapped as we think we are. And if you're doing something in your family that's not healthy, or, you know, it's not benefiting you stop, like no one's gonna, you know, anyway.
 
So, as you're thinking through activities, I talked about the interest question, which means like, is your kid actually there? Or is it like you that's kind of getting more out of this? And then I talked about the mealtime question.  And maybe we'll get to this, but family meals are so important. They really are. Even if it is, you know, not hours of sitting there with candlelight, whatever, just to have that checkpoint together. So, is your activity schedule, allowing you to uphold whatever your values are with meals? I'm not gonna tell you what they are, but is that what you want, really? And then the whole family question.
 
You know, I've seen a lot, and we've lived it too, of like the younger kid being getting drug around to the older talented kid’s activities.  That's really a hard one, right? And so, I'm not saying don't do that. Sometimes families are gonna just look like that for seasons. But I do think it's worth stopping to say, what is it like right now to be that youngest child? What are they going through?  And am I being kind to them? You know, are there switches we can kind of make in the family? Because it's, you know, the family is not about one person and their talents. It's a holistic, healthy, functioning unit.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:18 - 23:21)  Absolutely. So, even, I hear you saying, evaluating, again, kind of taking inventory. What is on the family plate? How is that affecting every human in the unit of the family?  Is that taking us where we want to go? Just being, I love how you use the word thoughtful. Just being full of thoughts of this and taking it to the Lord of what's the wise thing to do. And for all of us, I think with that time question, it does lead us to the question of, who are we spending the most time with? Because that will significantly impact our lives.  It'll impact our children as well. So, do you have any other, I love those questions. Any other lessons that you've learned? I'm thinking especially related to activities and youth sports come to mind because our culture really has gone to the side of idolizing it and catering everything else around that. So, do you have any other wisdom to share on that topic?
 
Jessica Smartt: (23:23 - 25:48)  Yeah, I mean, I'll just share. Personally, we have decided to have our kids play at a level that is probably sub what their talent could be. And I don't know.  I guess time will tell. If they look back and they were like, mom, I really, you know, could have, but I have a hunch that they won't. I more often am seeing in my friends and stuff that it's like, they get into high school, and the kids are kind of starting to feel burnt out. Or they're like, you know, it's so, hard right now to be, I mean, not even a professional, let's say soccer player, but at college, it's like unheard of.  It's the elite, elite. And so, it's like, why are you doing this anyway?
 
And we've had several opportunities to compete at higher levels and try out for things that we have said no to, you know, because it would require being gone more nights, it would require tons of time in the car, it would be families away on the weekends.  So, we have some of that. I think it's important when you have boys, especially to let them have an outlet to compete as we, if you know, I homeschool as you do. And so, if you have a homeschooled teenage boy, they should probably be doing something right. So, I am not saying sit at home and, you know, play Monopoly every night as a family. But, we have chosen to prioritize other things.
 
And so, so far, I am super grateful for that. We had a season where we were way too busy with baseball. And it was the boys were like 10 and 12. And Monday through Thursday, one of them had a different we were never eating together Monday through Thursday, Saturdays, we were taking off different directions. I could never understand why we had to drive two hours to play a team. I'm like, there's so, many baseball players right in this neighborhood.  Can we not find a team? And God use that it's fine. But, but I don't I don't envy that season.
 
And I'm really grateful for some of the breathing room that we've had. And also, I would say my son, my oldest son is a gifted guitar player and singer. And he would not be able to do that. If we were 110% in one of those other sports, he would not have any time to even pursue those other interests.  You just never know. You know, I think white space and mental white space and time, I talk about this and let them be kids is so important for just developing as a person. No one flourishes well with a completely jam-packed schedule. And so, how would we expect our children to, you know, that is good.
 
Laura Dugger: (25:48 - 26:02)  That is so, wise. And how can we strategically connect with our kids so that they do feel seen, and known and loved and liked?
 
Jessica Smartt: (26:03 - 27:54)  Yes. I mean, that feels overwhelming, doesn't it? But and I talked through in the book kind of each one of those categories. But I know this is going to sound cliche, but I would just say a like recognizing that if a kid doesn't feel like you like them, they're going to notice that. And so, it doesn't matter all the extra things what you're getting them for Christmas, and where you're they're taking them if they really genuinely feel like you're kind of annoyed with them. They know that.
 
And that's, that's not great. So, I would say first step before you get into any practicals and pancake breakfast and all that is just like, if you are feeling that way to your kid, a don't feel guilty. It's natural.  We all have that at times. And be come before God and just say, these are the feelings I'm dealing with. Can you please help me here? And again, to quote myself, I've never prayed that prayer and it not been answered.  God has always shown up in some way. And so, often what it looks like I talk about in being liked is just like genuinely working on something that you have in common.
 
I think my parents did that so, well with us. And it wasn't the same thing because my siblings and I are all different. But they really worked to always find common ground and always have that relationship bucket full, right? My mom is like big on, you know, don't make too many withdrawals unless you have made a lot of deposits. And they lived that for years and years and years of pouring into us and genuinely connecting with us. So, way harder to do than to say, but that's our goal. And I do actually have a lot of specific ideas in the book of random ways you can love your kids, love languages and all of that. But yeah, asking God for help.
 
Laura Dugger: (27:55 - 28:09) And sometimes it's just helpful to hear what somebody else does, even if that's not exactly how it'll apply to our situation. But can you just give one example of a way that you use your child's love language, maybe both for one of your sons and your daughter?
 
Jessica Smartt: (28:11 - 29:33) Well, I've learned a lot about my middle child, and he loves the comfort things in life. So, if I see him struggling with school or something, I can bring him, you know, yogurt parfait or he likes coffee. So, we give our kids coffee.  Don't sue us anyway. But if I make him a cup of coffee, oh, you can just see it in his face. It's like, oh, mom loves me, you know?  He's one that even like if I go make his bed, he'll appreciate that. Not every kid is like that. But just kind of seeing and noticing the things that he likes.
 
That's been kind of something that we do. And then my daughter loves to tell stories, long, long stories. And I'm working so hard to not only like, I want to listen, but also, you know, teach her how to condense. Because Jordan Peterson says, don't let your kid become someone that is, you know, not pleasant to be around.  If you're struggling with something, someone else will, too. And she's an absolute delight.  I mean, truly. But so, just listening to her stories and kind of working on the art of conversation. My mom always said, play tennis, conversation tennis. So, you hit the ball, and then I hit the ball back to you. So, we're working on that, you know?
 
Laura Dugger: (29:35 - 30:05)  Absolutely. That reciprocity is huge. If you take turns asking questions, it reminds me, a previous guest, Jodi Berndt, had also said, in addition to that, let's also teach our children how to serve the ball. So, to initiate that, I just thought that that's so good. I'll work that in. Jessica, how can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be? And we do, too.
 
Jessica Smartt: (30:07 - 31:52) I have been learning so, much about this in this stage of life, you know, in my 40s.  And again, it's hard when you have little kids. So, I think you can probably say across the board, it's going to look different when you're raising little kids to have a warm and wonderful inviting home than it is in your later years when your kids are older, and you have more time.  But I would just challenge moms. Well, I look back and I think, if I hadn't been so, stretched thin and put unrealistic expectations on myself in other areas of life, I maybe could have invested in my home a little bit more. And the thing I have learned is that having a home that's peacefully run just reaps so, many benefits for a woman and her family.
 
And I am behind the curve, I feel like, on this. But as I have learned to organize my space and really pour myself into my home, not feeling like it's a waste of time to organize a pantry. It is amazing how it blesses my family.  People notice it. And it's hard to even articulate it because you wouldn't even think that if you clean out a closet, it's going to bless your family. But it really actually does.  And my husband benefits from it. He's not even like a strict, everything has to be clean. But when I've worked on something in the home, he sees it and notices it and appreciates it. So, God has just been teaching me so, much about what it looks like to really be like a homemaker, a godly homemaker and pour myself into my home. And I have reaped so much joy and peace from living out that role and calling in my life.
 
Laura Dugger: (31:53 - 32:23) That was one of the quotes I wrote down that observation that you made on page 142. And I'll just quote you, "when I do something to invest in our home, every single member of our family brightens." And I exactly great and you gave practical ways of how we can do that. And I also like it because it gives a little freedom because we're one of the family members too. And I think we brighten when we get that space in order.
 
Jessica Smartt: (32:24 - 33:06)  Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Again, back to our earlier like cultural, cultural narrative versus biblical. There's like a, there's a lot of messaging about that it doesn't matter to really invest in your home and your family. And that's just not how God made the world to operate. So, I would challenge moms that even if they are doing what the rest of everyone is doing, and it's like, ah, it looks like a bomb went off in here. Like, um, you know, that may not be how God is calling us to live with a giant disclaimer that there are seasons of life that it truly does look like a bomb went off.  And that is okay. We are doing good gospel work, raising children.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:07 - 33:46)  Absolutely. But then also I think Proverbs 31 sometimes gets a bad rap, but really there's a lot of freedom in it for women because it is how the Lord created us, but she does look well to the ways of her household. And I think that just summed up, she's one of the members of the household, but so is everybody else. And that's one thing that can bless everyone, but you are just full and abundant with ideas, and you have an appendix in the book full of resources to help us maintain and take care of all our responsibilities. So, will you share a few of those ideas with us?
 
Jessica Smartt: (33:47 - 34:46) Um, yes, I, and maybe this is my homeschool mom speaking, but I have just learned so, much from other good books. I have, it's truly changed my life just in whether it's talking about personal health or discipline or marriage or prayer or my home. So, the thing I'm really actually most proud about in the appendix is my list of recommended resources. And it's just all the books that have impacted me as a mom and also impacted my writing too.  Um, I'll, I'll mention one. I think, uh, I don't know if everyone has read A Praying Life, but that has completely transformed not only my walk with the Lord, but my prayer life.  And I've implemented, um, it's Paul Miller, I believe his idea for prayer cards. And I do that every morning. Um, it has been the sweetest thing, and I've really reaped a lot of blessing out of kind of modeling what he sets up in that book.  So, that's just one example. If you haven't read A Praying Life, you should definitely go read it.
 
Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:20)  That's awesome. And I don't know if this ties in, but I'm just remembering back one of the podcasts that I heard you speak on. You share your definition of godly self-care, and you say that it's whatever helps you do your job well and not at the sacrifice of others. So, can you elaborate with some encouragement for how we can make sure that we don't go to either side, that we don't neglect ourselves, but we also continue with this merrymaking for our family.
 
Jessica Smartt: (35:21 - 38:22)  Right. Yes. And, um, that definition, I always want to be like, you know, the end part about not to the sacrifice of someone else. When I had a young, I think I had two kids and my baby was six weeks old.  I had a very qualified, loving teenage girl. Watch my two kids while my husband and I left for literally an hour to go to five guys and get burgers.  And my youngest was not thrilled. He did not prefer the bottle. So, in some ways his life was unsettled for a brief moment, but that was okay. So, I think everyone knows when I say, um, you know, not to the sacrifice of everyone else.
 
What I'm saying is like looking at the family and certainly we shouldn't be like living this plush and well-watered life and someone else's withering away. So, it's a general statement of, you know, that it would be too far, as you said, on the extreme of, and I do think that happens honestly, because we're all self-centered.  It's not that we don't love our kids. We're just trained to care about ourselves. But many women struggle on the other side of, um, maybe neglecting some areas in their life that could truly help them to be better wives and better moms. And, um, it's a really fun activity to think like, what, how could I change my life a little bit in a way that I would be a better wife and mom.
 
And I'm not meaning that to justify any sort of behavior that, you know, you want to do, because you certainly could use that for almost anything. Um, but really to think like, how can I be the best mom and wife that I could possibly be? And it might mean making some, giving yourself some breathing room. And I would also encourage women to, um, one of the best uses for that time is to work on your marriage because there's direct overflow into the family. And so, best case, I gave some ideas of like family adventures that can kind of fill your cup along with everyone else. And I would say maybe next best or equal would-be husband, wife stuff where you can check out, connect, and you're overflowing and ready to enter back into family life.
 
And then finally things that it's certainly fine to just step out and find those things that are life giving to you, but just trying to keep an eye on, you know, how is everyone in the family doing? And there might be seasons.  I think of my mom caring for her mom who had dementia. She wasn't really well watered in that season. She was, she was quite depleted, but that's what the Lord had been calling her to do at that period of time. Um, and we often were like, mom, you've got to like, we thought she did too much, you know?  Um, but looking back, I think she really is so grateful that she laid down her life. There's not regret.  And so, I'm like, well, maybe she was right all along. I don't know.
 
Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 38:58)  Good though. The both and to have seasons of that, where we can refresh so, that when we go into a season where it's a little bit prior, we can be serving hopefully still from the overflow. But you also just blew me away in the book with your knowledge on roots. And the subtitle of that chapter is "recipes, relics, relatives, and other things that keep kids grounded." So, will you just teach us a little bit more about roots and share how it applies to building a strong family?
 
Jessica Smartt: (39:00 - 40:51)  Yes, I would like to shout out to my husband who is in the landscaping business. So, he helped me. I was like, hey, can you please give me some fun facts about roots?  And he was thrilled. But um, one thing I mentioned is that most plant problems are caused by root issues. And gosh, have I seen that in real life, like even as an adult, you notice somebody that is carrying still issues that they're working through from their childhood. And so, what a gift we're giving our kids by giving them those strong, good roots and a healthy, you know, childhood to enter into adulthood, not crippled by things, but that they can give out of strength.
 
And my husband and I feel like, you know, although our families of origin were not perfect, we lived that story, we were able to go out in strength, and not, you know, carrying all this emotional baggage. That's what I would like to give my kids. So, um, but then yeah, at the end, I share that the most integral roots to the plant's wellbeing are the ones right near the surface. And I thought, what a kind of cool parallel that even if we, you know, I've shared about my experience, but someone listening may not have good roots, and they really might struggle with having support and partnership. But they can give a new story to their kids. They can give them the roots that they did not have through the Lord's strength.  And I have found friends that I'm literally seeing them do it. But they are they are crippled. And you know, in therapy and dealing with all this trauma, but they're passing a different story on to their kids.  And how cool is that? I have so much admiration for that. It seems like it's something that really only can be done through the Lord's strength, but he does it. He writes those stories.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:51 - 41:11)  And he seems to delight in redemption stories. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I'd love to continue kind of this idea time. Will you just share another handful of your favorite practical tips for building a strong family that are topics we haven't covered yet?
 
Jessica Smartt: (41:13 - 43:16) Well, I would start with one thing I have seen huge rewards is if we do sort of like a secret Santa idea, and we actually do it also before Valentine's Day and do you know, your cupids arrow, whatever, because it just changes your whole mindset when you're suddenly thinking, how can I, you know, love this person in my family, you're in a better mood.  And so, we divide up names. And then we also do like acts of service. And that is just such a fun, like low keyway to kind of get your kids to think about loving their siblings instead of being annoyed by them. We have loved doing game nights, and we're not like big game people. But finding ones that I think my encouragement would be that it doesn't have to be like this long three-hour thing.
 
If your family's not into that, we've done like minute to win at games that I just pulled up online.  We have a lot of games that are like, no mental stress. They're very easy, like Slopsy. If anybody has not played Slopsy, they need to pick it up. It's you could play it if you were extremely tired, which I often am at the end of the day. So, to find some like quip, there's also what do you mean family edition.  And that is a fun one. And I have some other games listed in the book too, for readers who are interested. So, those would be two. We also do like one-on-one activities with the kids. And I always thought you had to do it like really, really regularly. But I would just give the encouragement that some is better than none. And so, even if it's only a couple times a year, kids just soak that up. And it doesn't need to be, you know, this whole long thing, it could be like, hey, you need some new winter pants. Let's get a Chick-fil-A milkshake beforehand. You know, just to kind of keep your eyes open for those activities and opportunities.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:17 - 43:47)  Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. Can you also share this genius idea about something that you put on the notes app of your phone?
 
Jessica Smartt: (43:48 - 44:50)  Yeah, so, I talked about the power of stories. Kids love hearing stories from our, you know, youth or young adulthood or even, you know, married years, whatever. So, I got in the habit of sharing a story with my daughter before bed. And of course, at night, you aren't always on your A game. So, I just have a note app on my phone to track different things that I might want to tell her. And my encouragement was that it doesn't need to be, we think it needs to be like this long, significant story, but even just little tidbits of things she has been delighted to hear over and over. You know, just like a passing, you know, anecdote that didn't seem to me to be too pregnant with meaning, but she just ate it up and loved hearing about all of the different things. So, yeah, that was just again, it didn't cost a lot. It's not hard, but just a little thing that kind of connected us and also connected her to a deeper sense of like, here's your roots of the people that raised you.
 
Laura Dugger: (44:53 - 45:36) I loved that idea because my daughters or our daughters will just catch us off guard and say, hey, share a story about us share a story about when you were little or when I was little. And so, I love your system that you have in place that when that idea comes to me, I can jot it down. And then when they ask unexpectedly, I'm prepared.  So, thought that was wonderful. And you've written an entire book on memories. So, I'll link to our previous episode where we talk about that.  And we dove into that topic. But you've updated your ideas in this book and come up with the most epic list of memory making ideas ever. So, could you just share a couple of those to give us a taste of what you include?
 
Jessica Smartt: (45:37 - 46:43) Yes, so, I think my favorite was at the end the chapter talking about surprises because I love the idea of surprising your kid. And when I talked about when I was little, my grandparents showed up at our school in their RV to take us camping. So, just thinking through like just different, a lot of those are like the big, you know, birthday or vacation or Christmas gifts. But even if you did it just one time, that's like a that can be like a core memory in you know, your kid’s life.
 
When I was researching this, for the appendix, I reached out to a lot of my readers, and they had the most fun ideas of just creative family memory making things. And one that I remembered that I thought, I don't know if I have the guts to do this, but I think that this family came up with it during COVID. So, they were a little bit bored, and they packed a picnic and went to a stop sign. And when they got to one, they would roll a dice to see which direction they would turn until they ended up at a good picnic spot. She said it was harder than you would think.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 47:02)  That's hilarious. I love the creativity and that element of surprise. That is so, good. Well, I hope that everybody goes out to get a copy of your amazing book. But where else would you want to direct us to connect online after this chat?
 
Jessica Smartt: (47:03 - 47:15)  Yeah, definitely come say hi on Instagram. I'm Jessica Smartt with two Ts. And you can tell me what you enjoyed about our conversation. And I'm usually every so, often we'll check the messages, but I do get back to you.
 
Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:34)  Love it. We'll add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Jessica, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical. And so, my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Jessica Smartt: (47:36 - 48:09)So, what has changed my life, I really think is, and this isn't like the most exciting thing, but walking every single day, and I walk with my weighted vest. So, I look like every other 40-year-old woman that is out there. We have a little trail around our farm. So, I, it's, I honestly have like seen so, much change in my mental health and physical health. And I know they say that on all of these, you know, resources and stuff. And I never thought it was true. But it really has changed my life just to walk every day.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:11 - 52:21)  Amen, sister, I totally agree with that. That is so, well said. You are just a brilliant and faithful and godly and humble woman. You're gifted with your communication with your words in this conversation and in the books that you've shared with the world.  And I am just so grateful for you, Jessica. Thank you so much for being my guest today.  Well, thank you for those kind words.
 
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski on Youth Sports Idol or Disciple Maker (Episode 285)

1 Timothy 4:8 NIV “For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Brian Smith, author of The Christian Athlete: Glorifying God in Sports, is a staff member with Athletes in Action and a cross-country coach at Lowell High School. A former collegiate runner at Wake Forest University, he earned a BA in Communications and Journalism before completing his MA in Theology and Sports Studies at Baylor University’s Truett Theological Seminary. Brian lives in Lowell, MI with his wife and three children. You can find him on Twitter @BrianSmithAIA.
 
Ed Uszynski is an author, speaker, and sports minister with over three decades’ experience discipling college and professional athletes. With a heart for reconciliation and justice, he also works as a racial literacy consultant and marriage conference speaker, blending Biblical wisdom with practical living in the midst of complex cultural realities. He has two theological degrees from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a PhD in American Culture Studies from Bowling Green State University. He and his wife Amy have four children and live in Xenia, Ohio.
 
The Christian Athlete Website
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What is one of kids’ greatest game day complaints? 
Is it true that young athletic success is a predictor of adult athletic success?
What are a few tips for instilling a heart of gratitude in our young athlete, rather than entitlement?
 
Related Savvy Sauce Episode:
230 Intentional Parenting in All The Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.
 
Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.
 
Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski are my guests for today.
 
They are co-authors of this recent amazing book entitled, A Way Game, A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And from the very beginning, I was captivated, even with one of the endorsements from Matt Martens, who's the president and CEO of Awana, and he summed it up this way, A Way Game provides a much needed perspective shift on one of the most sacred idols in our culture, youth sports. So, Brian and Ed are all for youth sports, and yet you're going to hear there's a different way to approach it than what we've been trained in culture.
 
And they're going to share some wonderful and very practical insights. I can't wait to share this with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ed and Brian.
 
Ed Uszynski & Brian Smith: (1:51 - 1:54) Thanks for having us, Laura. Yeah, good to be here, Laura.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:54 - 2:04) So, excited about this chat. And will the two of you just start us off by sharing your family's stage of life and your involvement in sports?
 
Brian Smith: (2:05 - 3:29) Yeah, there could be a lot on the back end of that question. I'll start with sports, then get into family. I've been involved in sports my entire life, played every sport imaginable growing up, got cut from just about every single sport my freshman year of high school, ended up running track and cross country because it was the only sports that you could not get cut from at my high school.
 
And I ended up being pretty good at it by the time I was a senior, won some state championships, ended up getting a scholarship to run at Wake Forest University. So, I did that for four years right out of college. I coached a little bit collegiately.
 
Soon after that, I joined staff with a sports ministry called Athletes in Action that Ed and I have a combined 50 years with Athletes in Action. And really, that's been my life ever since. I've been ministering to college and pro athletes, discipling them, helping them figure out what does that actually look like to integrate faith in sport.
 
Even today, I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I coach high school cross country while I'm still on staff with Athletes in Action. I have a middle school Bible study that I run on Wednesday mornings.
 
Been married to my wife, who I actually met in high school. She was a distance runner too, and she ran at Wisconsin. So, we've been married for 20 years.
 
We have three kids, a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary schooler who are all involved in sport at some level, some way, shape, or form.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:30 - 3:34) Wow, that's incredible. Thank you, Brian. And Ed, what about you?
 
Ed Uszynski: (3:34 - 5:04) Well, my story is very parallel to Brian's, just different sports and some different numbers. Just tack on 15 years. Yeah, I was a basketball player.
 
Grew up on the west side of Cleveland with a high school football coach. My dad was, but I was a basketball player. I played at high levels all the way through my 20s, got to play overseas.
 
I mean, this was a long time ago, but I got everything I could out of that sport. And as soon as I graduated from college, though, I started to work with that Athletes in Action ministry that Brian mentioned. So, I've been working with college and professional athletes for 34 years now.
 
And same, coached at different levels, have four kids. Amy and I have been married for 26 years. We have four kids, three are in college, and one's in ninth grade, who has a game this afternoon, actually.
 
So, we've just been going to games and have been involved in going to sports stuff for the last 20 years with our kids. And really what happened with Brian, and I is that we looked up a decade ago and realized this youth sports thing was a fast train that was moving in directions that we weren't used to ourselves, even though we've been around sports our whole life. It's like, there's something different happening now.
 
And then thinking about it as Christians, like, how do we do this well as Christ followers? We don't want to separate from it. We don't want to just go for the ride. How do we do this as Christian people? And that's what got us talking about it and eventually led to this book.
 
Laura Dugger: (5:05 - 5:23) Well, the book was easy to read and incredible. And I'd like to start there where you begin, even where you go back before going forward. So, when you're looking back, what are the factors at play that changed youth sports over time?
 
Ed Uszynski: (5:26 - 6:17) Well, I'll say this and then Brian, maybe you jump in and throw a couple of them out there. I mean, youth sports is a $40 billion industry today, which is wild to think about. It's four times how much money gets spent on the NFL, which is just staggering.
 
I can't even hardly believe that that's true, but it is. And it's really just in the last 20 years that that's happened. I mean, 50 years ago, you couldn't have had the youth sport industrial complex, as we refer to it.
 
You couldn't have had it. There were a bunch of things that had to happen culturally, as is true with any new movement or any paradigm shift that happens in culture. You've got to have certain things be true all at the same time that make it possible.
 
So, Brian, what were a couple of those? Again, I'll throw it over to you. There's six of them that we talk about in the book. And I think it's really fascinating because I'm a history guy.
 
Brian Smith: (6:18 - 8:40) Yeah. And we can obviously double click on any of these, Laura, that you want to, but we talk about how the college admissions process became an avenue where youth sports parents saw, man, if we can get our kids involved in some extracurriculars and kind of tag on high level athlete to their resume, it actually helps with the college admissions process. And so even the idea of college scholarships became an opportunity for youth sports parents to get their kids involved.
 
And then, yeah, maybe sports can actually get them into college. We talk about the economic shifts that happen, the rise of safetyism and helicopter parenting. ESPN was a massive one in 1979.
 
This thing called ESPN starts, and we get 24-7 coverage of sports, which they started exploring even early on. What does it look like to give coverage to something like Little League World Series and saw that it didn't really matter how young the sport was, it's going to draw a national audience. And so, we've almost been discipled by ESPN really over the last 50 years with this consistent coverage.
 
We talk about the rise of the sports complex. This one to me is like the most fascinating out of all of them. In 1997, Disney decided to try to get more people to come to their parks.
 
They built a sports complex, just a massive sports complex. The idea was, are the older kids getting sick of the Buzz Lightyear ride and the Disney princesses? So, let's build a sports complex and maybe it'll be something else that will draw this older crowd too.
 
And what happened was, I mean, a lot of people started coming to it, but kind of the stake in the ground game changer was when 9-11 hit. In the months and years after that, they saw a lot less people go to their parks, but population actually doubled going to the sports complex, which is wild to think that people were afraid to go to theme parks for a vacation, but they were willing to travel across state lines to play sports at the Disney complex. So other cities and municipalities took notice of that.
 
Today, there's over 30,000 sports complexes like Disney's, which again, this is all adding to the system of the youth sports industrial complex. Did I miss any, Ed?
 
Ed Uszynski: (8:41 - 10:47) Well, no, and that's good. And the reason why we even put all that on the table, again, everybody kind of intuitively knows if you're involved, you know, something's not right. But I think it's important to say this is not normal what's happening.
 
It's a new normal that's been manufactured by a bunch of cultural trends, by a bunch of entrepreneurs that are doing what entrepreneurs do, and they're taking advantage of the moment, and they are generating lots of money around it. So, it should be encouraging. If it's not normal, that means actually there's a counter way of going about this.
 
There really can be reformation. But when all this money gets involved, the two biggest consequences that come out of that is our kids start getting treated like commodities, which they are, and we could talk the whole time even just about what that means. But maybe even more importantly, or what comes out of that is that beyond their physical development, most coaches and clubs are not paying any attention to their emotional development, their psychological development, their spiritual development, all the different aspects of what it means to be human that, frankly, used to be paid quite a bit more attention to in youth leagues when I was growing up.
 
I'm 58 now, so I was playing in the 70s and the 80s. And it used to be expected, at least at some level, even among non-Christian people, that you would take those aspects of a kid's life seriously. And now those just aren't prioritized.
 
And so, what do we do about that? Again, that's kind of our whole point is, well, as Christian people, we're really supposed to be our kid's first discipler anyways. And part of that role and part of taking on that identity is that we would be asking, what is God trying to do in the wholeness of their life, the entirety of their life, even in the context of sports?
 
So again, I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but that's why we're trying to poke into that to say, oh, we could actually make change. We may not change the whole system. In fact, we won't. Most of us won't be expected to do that, but we can make significant change in our corner of the bleachers and what happens with our kids.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:05) That's good. And just like you said, to double-click on a few places, first of all, real quick, the 30,000 number, I remember that shocking me in the book, but I'm forgetting now, is that worldwide, the amount of sports complexes or is that just in America?
 
Brian Smith: (11:05 - 11:06) That's domestically in the US.
 
Laura Dugger: (11:07 - 11:52) Yeah. That is staggering. And then one other piece, all of this history was new to me as you brought it all together, but it was also fascinated.
 
This is from page 32. I'll just read your quote. The American youth sports ball began rolling when a British movement fusing spiritual development with physical activity made its way across the Atlantic Ocean at the turn of the last century.
 
And Ed, that's kind of what you were touching on, that they were mixing, I'm sure, spiritual, psychological discipleship, physical. Can you elaborate more on what was happening and where it originated? Because we've come very far from our origins.
 
Ed Uszynski: (11:53 - 13:18) Yeah. And there's been a bunch of really great books written about this topic called muscular Christianity. This idea, like you just said, Laura, of wedding physical activity through sports with our spiritual development and expecting and anticipating that somebody that was taking care of their body and that was engaging in sport activity, that was the closest thing to godliness.
 
That opened up the door for you to also be developing spiritually. And there was an expectation that both of those are going on at the same time. A bunch of criticism about that movement, but it was taken seriously.
 
The YMCA is actually a huge byproduct of the muscular Christianity movement. The Young Men's Christian Association created space for sports and for athletic activity to take place under the banner of you're also going to grow spiritually as you're doing this. So again, that was a hundred years ago.
 
And that's not really what AAU stands for today. The different clubs and leagues that we get involved in just don't talk that way anymore. Of course, culture just in general has shifted away from sort of a Judeo-Christian ethic guiding a North Star for us.
 
Even if we're not Christian people, that used to be more of a North Star. That's gone now. And so, it really is not expected in sports anymore.
 
Brian Smith: (13:18 - 13:55) And what we're saying is we cannot expect organizations to own that process for our kids. We can't outsource the discipleship of our kids to the youth sports industrial complex or the YMCA or the AAU. It really does start with us as Christian parents to be the primary discipler of our kids.
 
And there is a way to take what's happening on the field or the court or the pool and turn it into really amazing discipleship opportunities. But it means, and Ed is starting to tease this out, it means we need to change our perspective as parents when we sit in the bleachers or on the sidelines of what we're looking for and even the conversations we have with our kids on the back end.
 
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Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:31) And I want to continue getting into more of those practicals. Do you want to give us just a taste or an example or story of what that might look like?
 
Brian Smith: (15:32 - 16:54) We keep saying, we keep talking about the importance of the car ride home that it's tempting for us and not us broadly in the U.S., tempting for us, Ed and I, as people who have done this for 50 plus years and who should know better, it's tempting for us as discipled by an ESPN over analyzing everything culture and want to talk about sports to get in the car ride home with our kids and all we want to talk about is how game went, what they did right, what they did wrong, what they could fix next time.
 
Maybe instead of passing to Tim, they should take the shot next time because they're wide open. They just hit three in a row. So, and what our kids need from us in those moments is less coaching, less criticizing, less critiquing, and they just need us to connect with them.
 
The stats on kids quitting youth sports is crazy right now. Its 70 percent are quitting before the age of 13, in large part because it's not fun, and a lot of kids are attaching this idea of it not being fun to the car ride home with their parents who, let's say this too, most of us are well-intentioned parents. We're not trying to screw our kids up.
 
We want what's best for our kids, but the data and the research and the lived experience continues to tell us what our kids need from us is just to take a deep breath, connect with them, less coaching. Ed keeps saying less coaching, more slurpees.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:55 - 17:07) I like that. And that ties in. Is it called the peak-end principle that you discovered why kids are resisting that critique on the way home?
 
Brian Smith: (17:07 - 18:17) Yeah, absolutely. The peak-end rule in psychology is known as this: we, just as humans in general, not just kids, we largely remember things in our lives based on the peak moment of that event, but also how the event ends. And so, the peak moment in sport can be anything from something that goes really well, like they scored a goal or made a basket or something that did not go well, just like a massive event that took place that they're going to remember.
 
But then it's also married to how that event ends. So, if you think for kids, how does every youth sport experience end? It ends with the car ride home.
 
So, if they're experiencing the car ride home as I did not live up to mom and dad's standards, or there's fear getting into the car because they don't know what their parents are going to say, how are they remembering the totality of their youth sport experience? It is, I didn't, I didn't measure up. I wasn't enough.
 
It felt like sports was a place that I needed to perform for my parents or my coach. And I always feel a little bit short. We want to help parents see like there's a different path forward that can be more joyful for you, but hopefully more joyful for your kid as well.
 
Ed Uszynski: (18:17 - 21:37) Well, and, and I'll just, let me keep going with that, Brian. I thought you really articulated all that so well. I can just imagine a parent maybe thinking, was there never a time to correct?
 
Is there never a time to give input? And we would say, well, of course there, there is, they need far less of it from us than we think they need when it comes to their sport. And again, we can talk about that.
 
They need far less of that from us. They need us to be their parents, not to be their coaches. Even if we are their coach, they need us to be more their parents.
 
But there is a time to do it. We're just saying the car ride home is the worst time to do it. And that's usually the time that most of us, you know, we've got two hours of stuff to download with them.
 
And that's just, it's not a good time. But the other thing that Brian and I keep talking about is how about, what if we had some different metrics that we were even trying to measure? So, most of the time our metrics have to do with their performance.
 
Like what, what are we grading them on? Again, depending on what the sport is, there's these different things that we're looking for to say, how you did today is based on whether you did this or you didn't do that and whatnot. And we're saying as parents, and again, starting with us, we needed some other metrics that were actually more concerned about what was going on in their soul.
 
So again, I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but the virtues, how did love show up in the way they competed today? Where that usually is tied to them noticing somebody else. Do I, am I even asking them any questions about that?
 
Are they experiencing peace in the midst of all this chaos and anxiety that shows up at every game? How do we teach them to experience peace? How do they become other-centered instead of just self-centered all the time in a culture, a sport culture that's teaching them to always be the center of attention and try to be?
 
So, we just have needed to exchange some of what we had on that performance list, like tamper that down a little bit and maybe expand the list of categories that we're looking for that actually will matter when they're 25. And we keep saying this, our goal is that they'd come home for Thanksgiving when they're 25. And so, we need to stay relationally connected to them and how we act on the car ride home day after day after day after day, year after year is doing something to our relationship.
 
But we also are recognizing that it's really not going to matter whether Trey finishes with his left hand at the game today when he's 25, it's not going to matter. It's not going to matter probably a year from now, but how he goes through the handshake line after the game and the way he addresses other people, and whether or not he's learning to submit to authority, whether or not he's learning to embrace other people's humanity. Yes, even in the context of sports, that's really going to matter when he's 25.
 
It's going to matter when he's married. Those are the things that will matter. And we say that as people who are older and have been involved in ministry and have worked with college athletes and see what happens in their lives even after they're finished, and they have no idea who they are anymore.
 
And this thing that's dominated their life has not actually prepared them well to do life. And that's a problem that we say, let's start changing that when they're six and not hope they're figuring it out when they're 22.
 
Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 22:11) I love that because that's such a theme throughout those virtues that you talked about, but discipleship and sports are a tool or a way that we can disciple our kids. I also love that you give various questions throughout the book and even quick phrases. So to close that conversation on the car ride home, if we say, okay, that's what I've been coaching the whole way home, what is a question we could ask our child afterwards and a statement we could say and leave it at that and do it a better way?
 
Brian Smith: (22:12 - 23:56) The question I have consistently asked my kids after learning that I've been doing this the wrong way for a long time, I tweet my question to they get in the car and I say, is there anything that happened today from the game that you want to talk about? And it's frustrating to me because 99% of the time they say, no, can we listen to the radio? And we listen to the radio, or they play a on my phone, but I'm respecting their desire that they're done with what just happened and they're ready to move on to the next thing, even though I really want to talk about what just happened.
 
And then the statement that I want to make sure that I'm consistently saying that they're hearing is I love you and I'm proud of you. So, game didn't go well. Yeah, you did play well today.
 
That's okay. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you. Game went well today.
 
Awesome. Great job. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you.
 
So I want that to be the consistent theme that they're hearing for me, which is hopefully going to help them better understand the gospel later in life, that as they get older and older, hopefully they'll begin to realize it seemed like the way that my mom and dad interacted with me when I was performing in sport, but their love was not attached to my performance. That seems really similar to what I'm learning more and more that Jesus does for me, that I'm trying to do all these things that are good. But from what I'm understanding about the gospel, it seems like Jesus loves me in spite of what I do.
 
He loves me just because He's connected to me, that God loves me because I'm a son or daughter, not because I'm performing as a son or a daughter. So, in a very real way, I really am hoping that I'm giving a good teaser for my kids now for when they fully experience the gospel as they go through the life.
 
Ed Uszynski: (23:56 - 24:47) Another really good connecting question. I love how you said all that, Brian, is if they don't want to talk about the game, is it okay, did you have fun today? And they can only go in one of two directions.
 
No. Well, tell me about that. Why not?
 
And it opens up the door to talk about, well, because I didn't get to play or because something bad happened. And again, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.
 
Or they say, yes, great. What happened that was fun? And it creates a very different conversation in the car.
 
And it opens up, again, relational possibilities that go way beyond, why do you keep passing it when you should be shooting it? Wow. And just all the different ways that that comes out of us, depending on sport, depending on their age.
 
But those are great questions. Go ahead, Brian.
 
Brian Smith: (24:47 - 25:41) I just asked my son this morning. He's a freshman. His wrestling season is almost done.
 
And I just asked, like, what has been most fun for you in wrestling this year? And his first thing was, I feel like I'm learning a lot. And that's really fun for me, which he's on a really good team.
 
He's had a lot of success. He's made a lot of good friends. But even that gave me a window into his characters.
 
My son enjoys and I knew this is true about him. But my son enjoys learning, which means he enjoys the process of getting better and better and better, which can happen in school, it can happen doing stuff in the yard, it can it can also happen in sport. But for me to remember moving forward, yeah, he he's probably going to have a different metric for what's fun in sport than I often do for him.
 
Yeah, like I wanted to learn. I want him to win though, too. He's happy with learning right now.
 
So, I need to be happy with that for him.
 
Ed Uszynski: (25:41 - 26:34) If I can say this, too, again, I don't want to be vulnerable on your behalf. But then knowing this, he's lost a lot this year to really good kids. Yeah.
 
And so much of the learning has been in the context of losing. So, you as a dad, actually, you could be crushing him because of those losses and what he needs to do to fix that and what he needs to do so that that doesn't happen again. And it's like he's already committed to learning.
 
How do you just how do you celebrate the loss? Like he took the risk to try something new in this movie. He tried to survive an extra period.
 
That's a process when and it's we just need to get better at that. Like you genuinely can celebrate that. That's not just a that's not like a participation trophy.
 
It's acknowledging now, do you're taking you're taking the right steps that are actually making you a winner, even if you don't have more points at the end of the game right now.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 26:54) Yeah. Yeah. And that long term win that you're talking about, even with character and you've talked about fun and asking them about fun.
 
Is it true that that's the main reason kids are dropping out of sports at such a rapid rate before age 13 is that it's just not fun anymore?
 
Ed Uszynski: (26:55 - 28:58) Yeah. Yeah. And why is it not fun?
 
And again, this is where Brian and I are always getting in each other's business. And we know that this conversation gets in all of our business as adults. But why is it not fun?
 
It's not fun because of the coaches and it's not fun because of the parents. We are creating stress. We are creating again collectively because we're all in different places on the on the spectrum on this in terms of what we're actually doing when we show up at games.
 
But if you even just go to any soccer game and you be quiet and just listen to what's happening and everybody's shouting and screaming things and there's contradictory messages being sent and there's angst at every turn and there's an incredible celebration because this eight year old was able to get the ball to go across the line for another goal. And what that's doing inside the kids is it is creating a not fun atmosphere. Let's just say it like that.
 
That's a not fun atmosphere when you're eight, when you're 10, when you're trying to figure out how to make your body work. You're trying to learn the game that you're unfamiliar with and you're trying to do what this coach is telling you to do. And you're also trying to do what all the parents are telling you what to do.
 
And if it's a team sport, you're trying to interact and play with other kids who are all in that same state of disarray, which is very stressful and frustrating. And we're just adding to it. So instead of removing it, instead of playing a role that says, we're going to keep diffusing that stress.
 
And again, I'll speak for myself. Too often, I have been the one that's actually adding to it. And so, kids are just like, why would I do this?
 
Why would I want to get in that car again with you? It's not fun. This is a game.
 
And so, there's a million other things that I can do with my time where I don't have everybody yelling at me and I don't have to listen to you correct me for two hours.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:00 - 29:21) Well, and one other thing that surprised me, maybe why kids are dropping out, you share on page 47, a quote that research reveals a strange correlation. The more we spend, the less our kids actually enjoy their sport. So, did you have any more insight into that?
 
Brian Smith: (29:21 - 30:50) Yeah, this was a real study that was done at Utah State. Researchers found that the more money parents are spending, again, let's say well-intentioned parents, the more we're spending in sports, the less our kids are enjoying. And the more they have dug into it, they're finding, and intuitively it makes sense.
 
If you buy your kid a $600 baseball bat, what's the expectation that they're supposed to do with this really expensive bat? When they swing, they better hit the ball, and they better get on base. If we're going to buy you this expensive of a bat, you can't just have process goals with it.
 
You better swing and hit it. And that's causing stress for kids. If you travel across state lines and you go to Disney to play at their sports complex, you're not there for vacation.
 
You're there to perform. So even if parents are saying we're trying to have fun, kids know when you're traveling and you're getting all this good equipment and you're on the elite team and you're receiving the best of the best stuff, they know it comes with some sort of an expectation. College athletes can barely handle that type of pressure and expectations, but we've placed this professional on youth sports from fifth five-year-olds to 15-year-olds, and it's just crushing them.
 
It's crushing them. Again, college athletes and professional athletes can barely handle it. They need mental health coaches for sports, but we're expecting that our five-year-olds can handle it, and they can't.
 
Ed Uszynski: (30:51 - 31:19) And they may not even be able to articulate it. So that's the other thing. They may not be able to identify what's actually going on inside and put it into words.
 
So again, that's why we're trying to sound the alarm for ourselves and for others who are listening, because we can do it different. Again, just to even keep spinning it back in an encouraging direction, we can do this different. We can change this this week in our corner of the bleachers.
 
We can start over again.
 
Laura Dugger: (31:21 - 31:48) Absolutely and make a difference. And before we talk about even more of the pros with sports, I think it's also necessary to reflect and maybe even grieve a few things. So, what would you say are some things families are missing out on when they choose youth sports to overfill their calendar, that that's all that they make time for?
 
What do you think they're missing out on?
 
Brian Smith: (31:51 - 33:16) Yeah, I think a couple that come to mind are family dinners are a big one. That's big for us in the Smith house, is just having the ability after a long day to sit at the dinner table together, to eat food together, and to process the day and be with one another. But when my kids' practice goes late, it means we're either eating almost towards bedtime or we're eating in different shifts.
 
And so that's something that we grieve. I think for me, when my schedule is full, I'm tempted to adopt the mindset that what's happening on the wrestling mat or on the track matters more than it actually does. And it robs me of the ability to just take a deep breath and smile and enjoy watching my kids play sports.
 
That without an intervention or a pregame devotional in the car for myself, I risk sitting in the stands or being on the sidelines, being stressed out and putting pressure on myself and pressure on my kids and gossiping about why the coach didn't put this kid into the people next to me, instead of just enjoying the gift that is sports and watching my kid try and succeed and try and fail. That is a gift available to me as a dad to watch my kid do that. But the busyness often robs me of that perspective.
 
Ed Uszynski: (33:17 - 36:06) Well, and the busyness robs, again, if you're married, that busyness eventually wears away at your relationship. And it's not just sports. I mean, busyness, we can fill our schedule, overfill our schedules with any number of things.
 
We can overfill our schedules with church stuff to a point where it becomes detrimental to our relationship. If we don't set boundaries so that we're making sure we're doing what we need to do to be face-to-face and to be going to areas beneath the surface with each other in our relationship and being able to do that with our kids as well, eventually there's negative consequences to that. It may not happen right away, but I've definitely experienced that.
 
We've experienced that in our home where it's easy to maybe chase one kid around for a while, but what happens when you add three into the mix and you haven't really done a time budget or paid attention to the fact that when we sign up for all these things, you get a month into it and you realize, oh, we have to be in different places at the same time. So, we're not even watching stuff together anymore. We're just running.
 
I can endure anything for a season, but what youth sports wants now in every sport from the youngest ages is that it becomes a year-round commitment. So, you're not even signing up to play a season anymore. You're signing up for a year in most cases because after the games, then they're going to have training.
 
They're going to have this other thing going on. And so again, can we say, well, we'll play the actual season, but then we're not going to do the additional training over these next three months. Again, we want to give parents’ permission that you can say no to that.
 
Well, we paid for it. Well, it's okay. If you want your kid to be on that team and you like this club or whatever, then you pay the money and you just say, we're going to sit those three months out and we're going to use those three months actually to have people over our house for dinner.
 
Again, whatever's on the list, Laura, that you said about being more holistic and not letting sport operate like an idol in our life where it's taken on, it's washed out everything else in our life. We can get back in control of that by just saying no a little bit. You can go to church on Sunday.
 
Even if there's tournament games going on on Sunday, you can go to the coach early and say, hey, we just, in our family, we just don't want to be available before 12. Are you okay with that? And most of the time coaches will be.
 
The kid might have to sit extra maybe for not being, whatever. Okay. That's not going to be the end of the world that they had to sit out an extra game or had to sit out a half because they weren't available on Sunday morning.
 
It might actually make a huge difference that they weren't at church for two and a half years in the most formative time of their life.
 
Laura Dugger: (36:07 - 37:36) And a lot of times the way of wisdom includes reflection, getting alone with the Lord and asking, have we overstuffed our schedule this conversation today? Let's talk specifically with youth sports. Is that trumping everything else?
 
Because what if we're putting it in a place it was never intended to be as an idol where we sacrifice hospitality or discipleship or community or even just a more biblical way of life? I think we have to bring wisdom into the conversation for what you've mentioned. Whether it's worth it, if they're even enjoying it, how much we're spending on it, and do we have the budget to allocate our finances that way and evaluating the time just to see and make sure that it's rightly ordered.
 
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But if we flip that to if youth sports are rightly ordered, then what are some things that we can celebrate or reasons that you would want families to give this a try?
 
Brian Smith: (37:37 - 40:09) The massive positive that we keep coming back to is we have a front row seat to see our kids go through every possible emotion in sport, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And then if we have the right perspective, we are armed with awesome opportunities and awesome information that we're seeing. We get to see what our kids are really good at.
 
We get to see their character gaps. And then we get to be the ones who, again, who are their primary response, primary disciplers. It really goes back to like, are we trusting youth sports for too little in our kids' lives?
 
Like many of us are trusting that our investment is going to get them a spot on a team, or maybe they get an opportunity in high school, maybe in college. And what we're saying is, yeah, that maybe. And that's not a bad end goal.
 
But if that's everything that you're investing into youth sports, it's not enough. Like what you have available to you every single day is to ask your kid if they showed somebody else's dignity on the field. You don't know if your kid's going to hit a home run today.
 
That may not be available to them their entire life. What's available to them every single day is to ask a question to their teammate, to see somebody and show dignity to them. And that's really, it's like, it's almost the opportunity of a lifetime for us as parents who, when our kids get home from school, we really don't know what happened most of the day.
 
We asked them how it went and we get the one-word answer. In sports, we don't have to guess. We get to see everything that happens.
 
And again, if we are actually trusting youth sports for discipleship investment, that's a good ROI. That's a good return on our investment. But we need a consistent intervention almost daily to say, no, this is why they're in sports.
 
Yes, I want to see them get better. I want to see them have fun, but Holy Spirit, would you help me see things today that I normally don't see? Holy Spirit, would you put them in circumstances and relationships today and in the season that's going to help them look more and more like Jesus by the time the season's done?
 
Holy Spirit, would you convict me in the moment when I am being a little too mouthy and saying things that I shouldn't? Would you help me to repent? And God, in those moments where I'm actually doing wrong on behalf of my kid, would you help me to humble myself and apologize to them?
 
And God, would you repair our relationship that way? So again, all of these options are available just because our kid's shooting a ball or they're on the field with somebody else tackling other people. We're trusting youth sports for too little.
 
Ed Uszynski: (40:10 - 41:10) That's all big boy and big girl stuff. It just is. I don't normally naturally do any of that.
 
I have to be coached into that. I have to be discipled myself. I have to work through my own issues, my own baggage, my own fears about the future, my own idolatrous holding onto this imagined future that I have for my kid, irrespective of what God may or may not want.
 
I've got my own resentment. I've got my own regrets from the past. I wish things had gone differently for me, so I'm going to make sure they go different for you when it comes to sports.
 
And it's hard to look in the mirror and admit that I have anger issues. I mean, youth sports create a great opportunity for me to get up all my pent-up frustration from the day. We've given ourselves permission to do that, in most cases, to just yell and yell at refs and gripe about coaches and yell at kids.
 
Brian Smith: (41:10 - 41:31) Because that's what we do at the TV, right? When our favorite team is playing, we've conditioned ourselves to say, awful call, that was terrible. Then we get on social media and we complain about it.
 
We are discipling ourselves to this is how it's normative to respond within the context of sports. Then we carry all that baggage to our six-year-old soccer game.
 
Laura Dugger: (41:33 - 42:02) Well, I love how you keep pointing it back toward character and discipleship. You clearly state throughout the book, sports don't develop character, people do. But could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit more and share more now that we've listed pros and cons, you still list a completely different way that we can meaningfully participate while also pushing back?
 
Brian Smith: (42:04 - 43:49) I'll start with the first part, and then you can answer the second. We use the handshake line as a great example of why character needs to be taught to our kids. If you just watch a normal handshake line left without coaching, the kids are going through it, especially the ones who lose with their head down, they have limp hands, there's no eye contact, and they're mumbling good game, good game.
 
Sometimes they don't even say it, they'll say GG stands for good game. They don't just learn character by going through the handshake line. If anything, that's going through it like that without any sort of intervention or coaching, that's malforming their character.
 
That's teaching them when things don't go well, that it's okay for them not to be a big boy or a big girl and look somebody in the eye and congratulate them. What needs to happen? An adult needs to step in and say, hey, as we go through the handshake line, whether you win or lose, here's how we do it with class.
 
We shake somebody's hand, we look them in the eye, and we say good game. Even if in those moments we don't actually mean it, we still show them dignity and honor. And then when we're done going through the handshake line, guess what we're going to do?
 
We're going to run down the refs who are trying to get in their car and get out of here, and we're going to give them a high five and say, thank you so much for reffing today. That stuff needs to be taught. Our kids don't just come out of the womb knowing how to do that.
 
We have to teach them how to do it. Sometimes good coaches will do that, but the more and more we get sucked up into the sports industrial complex, we're getting well-intentioned coaches, but we're getting coaches who care more about the big W, the win, than the character formation stuff that happens.
 
Ed Uszynski: (43:49 - 45:27) They need to keep hearing it over and over again. I have a ninth grade Bible study in my house the other day with athletes and a whole bunch of my son's basketball team. Exactly what Brian just said, I actually was like, wow, I've got them here.
 
There was a big blow up at a game the other day, and we wound up talking about it. I said, I'm going to take this opportunity actually to say what Brian just said. When you go through a handshake line, this is how you go through it.
 
I watched what happened in the game a couple days later. Basically, they did the exact opposite of what I told them to do, and they lost. It was just what Brian said.
 
They went through limp handed. They didn't look anybody in the face, and they weren't even saying anything. I just chuckled to myself, and you know how this is as a parent.
 
They may or may not do it. Of course, those aren't my kids. I have more stewardship over my child, who actually, he is doing what I've asked him to do because I've re-emphasized it across time now.
 
It's not a failure because they didn't do what I said. Again, the pouty side of me wants to be like, forget it. I'm just not even going to try anymore.
 
It's like, no, they're kids. That was the first time they've heard that. They're going to do what their patterns have, the muscle memory that's been created by their patterns, just like we do as adults.
 
The next time I have a chance to bring that up again, I'm not going to shame them. I'm just going to go over it again with them. Here's how we do it.
 
It's super hard to do this, guys, when you just want to be violent with people or you want to cry. You got to pull yourself together. That's what big men do.
 
That's what big women do in life. They pull themselves together in those moments and do the right thing.
 
Brian Smith: (45:28 - 46:01) You don't know whether the fifth time you say it is going to stick or the 50th time. Your responsibility as the Christ-following parent is to do it the sixth time and the seventh time and the seventh time and trust that God is going to take those moments and do what he does. We're ultimately not responsible for our kids' behavior.
 
We're responsible for pointing them in the right direction, and then hopefully, yeah, the Holy Spirit steps in and transforms and changes and convicts in those moments, but it might take some time.
 
Ed Uszynski: (46:02 - 47:47) Tom Bilyeu So that's how you push back, Laura. You were asking that. How do we push back without being just completely involved in it or going for the same ride that everybody else is going for?
 
There's just little moments like that scattered throughout. Literally, every day that my kids are involved in youth sports, the car ride over, what happens on the way home, how we talk about it, what happens during the game and what we wind up talking about out of that, the side conversations that happen that just get brought up apart from games of how we interact with people and so-and-so looks like they're struggling. What do you know about that?
 
That's how we push back, that in our corner of the bleachers, oh, how we interact with other parents. We haven't even talked about that yet, that I can take an interest in more than just my own kid in the bleachers and spend way more energy actually in cheering for other kids and just trying to give them confidence and spend way less time trying to direct that at my own child who knows that I'm there. In fact, my side kid has said he doesn't want to hear my voice during the game.
 
It distracts him. He's like, I'd much rather that you cheer for other people. It's like, okay.
 
Having questions ready for other parents during timeouts and as you sit there for hours together, what do you talk about? Well, I could be the one that actually initiates substantive conversations over time with them and asks them about what's going on in different parts of their life. And in having done that, people want to talk.
 
They want a safe place actually to share what's going on in their So let me be the sports minister. Let me take on that identity and actually care about other people.
 
Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 49:47) I love that. Even that practical idea of just coming to each game, maybe with a different question, ready to open up those conversations. And I'll share a quick story as well.
 
Our two oldest daughters recently just gave cheerleading a try at a local Christian school that allows homeschool kids to participate. And this is an overt way that somebody chooses the different way. So, it's the coach of the basketball team.
 
His name is Cole. And at the end of every game, we saw him consistently throughout this season when it was a home game, whether their team won or lost, he would ask them, okay, shut off the scoreboard. It's all blank.
 
He gathers both teams. As soon as the game is over teams, cheerleaders, the stands stay filled with all the parents. And he says, this is not our identity.
 
The world and Satan, our enemy, who's very real. He wants us to put our identity here, but it's not here. You made us better tonight by the way that you played and you were able to shine Jesus.
 
And we're going to go a step further and we're going to do what we call attaways. So, he's like, all right, boys, you open it up. And his team is trained.
 
They say to the other team, Hey, number 23, what's your name? I loved how you pushed me so much harder tonight and says, my name's Ben. And so, their Attaway is, Hey, Ben.
 
And everybody goes, Hey, Ben. Yeah, Ben. Yeah, Ben Attaway.
 
And everybody just erupts in clapping. And the other team is always blown away and they are just grinning, whether they just lost. So, the boys go through that for a while and then they open it up to the other team and they start sharing Attaways.
 
And then they open it up to the crowd and the parents are able to say, I see the way you modeled Jesus by being selfless with the ball or whatever it is. So, Cole said that his college coach did that many years ago and he's passed that on. And I love that's one way to redeem the game.
 
Ed Uszynski: (49:47 - 51:39) Wow. Beautiful. Beautiful.
 
Yeah. That's amazing. And, you know, I, so Brian and I talk about this too.
 
And I coached at a Christian school. So, we, we think that it's really important if you're going to play sports and you're going to be a Christian coach that you actually take the game seriously. And that we actually are here to compete and we are here to try to win.
 
There's nothing wrong with that. And we're going to pursue excellence when we show up with our bodies, and we train for this sport and we're going to try to win. Cause I think sometimes we end up kind of going all or nothing, especially within our Christian circles.
 
We're uncomfortable with that. And it's like, yes, do that. And on the backside of that to do what that coach did is amazing.
 
It's that, that is, that is exactly what we're saying. We're also going to try to form our souls in the midst of this. We're going to try to win on the scoreboard.
 
Okay. The game's over, we lost, we won, whatever. There's more going on here than just that.
And can we access that together? And again, that's so rare. Probably everybody listening has never even heard of anything like what you just said.
 
It would be amazing if a bunch of people did, but that's what we're saying. Let's do more of that. Let's find ways to have more of those conversations in our sphere of influence.
 
Maybe we're not the coach, but we can do that in our car. We can do that when we're at dinners with the other, with other players and other team, you know, we, we can do that. We can take that kind of initiative.
 
If we have those categories in our mind, instead of just being frustrated that my kid didn't get to play as much tonight. And I'm that bugs me. It's like, okay, it can bug you.
 
And now I gotta, I gotta be a big boy and get more out of this than just being frustrated that he or she didn't get to play as much. It's hard.
 
Laura Dugger: (51:40 - 52:11) Absolutely. Well, and like you guys are doing having Bible studies outside of the, the team that you can instill values in that way and share scripture that they're memorizing to go out there with excellence for the Lord. So, I love all of that.
 
And I've got just a few quick questions, just kind of for perspective. I want to draw out something from the book. Is it true that young athletic success predicts adult athletic success?
 
Brian Smith: (52:13 - 53:51) It is not true. This is, this is not a hot take. This is researched back more and more research they're doing on this.
 
And they're finding that there's not a direct correlation between a young elite athlete and them continuing that up into the right trajectory and being an elite athlete later in life in large part, because when puberty hits, like everything is a game changer. So, this is, I found this fascinating and this is probably going to be new to you too. This just came out today.
 
At the time we're doing this podcast, the winter Olympics is going on in Norway. It's just like, they're killing it. Nor Norway's youth sports system.
 
This is wild. They give participation trophies for all the kids. They don't keep score until 13 years old.
 
They don't do any national travel competitions, no posting youth sports results online. So, there's no online presence of youth sport results. And their country motto is joy of sport for all.
 
And they're, they're killing it right now in the Olympics. So, like, that's not to say, like you got to follow their model and then you're going to win all these gold medals, but it is, there is something to just let the kids have fun. And the longer they play sport, because it's fun, the better opportunity you're actually going to have to see them blossom and develop some of these God-given gifts that they might have.
 
Don't expect it to come out before they're 13. Even if it does, there's no guarantee that it's going to continue on until they're 23. Just let them have fun.
 
Ed Uszynski: (53:52 - 55:55) Brian, we, Brian and I got to speak at a church the other day about this topic. And there was a couple that came up afterwards and they asked the question of what, so when do you think we should let our kids play organized sports or structured sports? And so again, Brian and I are careful.
 
Like I, there's no, there's no one size fits all answer to that. We would suggest as late as possible, wait as long as possible. Because once you start doing structured sport where there's a coach and you have to be at practices and the games are structured and there's reps, it just cuts away all the possibility they have to just play and just to go up to the YMCA and just play for three hours at whatever it is that they like to do.
 
And they said, well, it's encouraging to hear that they said, because we, we actually are way more into just developing their bodies physically. And so, we do dance with them, and we do rock climbing and they were kind of outdoorsy people, and they just started listing off all these things they do because we want them to become strong in their bodies, and learn to love activity like that. And I just thought, again, that's, that probably would cause a lot of people to freak out to hear that, that they have eight, nine-year-olds that aren't on teams yet.
 
They're just, they're training their bodies to appreciate physicality and to become coordinated and to, you know, to get better at movement. And it's like, what sport is that not going to be super helpful in five years from now, even when they're 12, 13 years old. And now they really do want to play one sport, and they do want to be on a team.
 
They're going to be way ahead of the kids actually that just sat on benches or stood in the outfield, you know, day after day after day at practices. Again, that's maybe hard to hear, but maybe there's some adjustments that need to be made again; to give ourselves permission to say, we don't have to get on that train right now. You don't have to, your kid's not going to be behind.
 
They actually could be ahead. If you do the kinds of things we just talked about.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:56 - 56:11) I love that. And even that example with what it looks like played out with Norway and also, do you have any other quick tips just for instilling and cultivating a heart of gratitude and youth sports rather than entitlement?
 
Brian Smith: (56:13 - 57:33) I'm a high school cross country and track coach, and I have kids on my team who want to get faster at running, but instead of running, they want to lift weights and they want to do plier metrics. So, there's, yes, there's a spot for that. But the way you get better at running is to run.
 
You got to run more miles and more miles. And I think gratitude is similar. That gratitude, part of it is a, it's a feeling, but it's also a muscle that we can flex even if we don't feel it.
 
And so, I would encourage parents who are trying to instill gratitude into their kids to give them practical things like, hey, after practice, just go shake your coach's hand or give them a fist bump and tell them, thanks for practice today, coach. That that's a disciplined way to practice gratitude that will hopefully build the muscle where they're, they're using it later in life. After a game, I taught my kids this when they were young and they still do it today.
 
Go shake a ref's hand. I mentioned this earlier, just a really, really practical way to show thankfulness and gratitude to somebody who really doesn't get a whole lot of gratitude pointed at them during a game or after a game. If anything, they have people chasing them through the parking lot for other reasons.
 
I want my kids to be chasing them down to give them a fist bump or a high five. And so, gratitude is something that we can just practice practically. And hopefully the discipline practice will lead to a delight and actually doing it.
 
Ed Uszynski: (57:34 - 59:39) And how do we cultivate an inner posture? Cause I tend to be a cup half empty type person. I'm a, I'm a whiner by nature and a continuous improvement.
 
There's always something wrong. And I'm, it's easy for me to find those things just as a person. I'm not even saying that as a dad or a coach or anything.
 
And it's been super helpful to me in the last decade, even to just like, I can choose to shift that. There, there is, there's a list of things that are broke, but there is always a list of things that are good. There's always something good here to be found.
 
And even as I've tried to like, again, tip the scales more in that direction, I can keep pushing that out of my kids. So, so this, you know, my ninth-grade son tends to just like, he doesn't like a whole bunch of what's going on in basketball right now. So, I keep asking him if he's having fun.
 
He says, no, like, why not? Or like, who did, why did you not have fun today? So, it's just the same thing every day.
 
I'm like, okay, who did you enjoy even being with today? Nobody. And I'm like, dude, I don't believe that actually.
 
I just, I don't believe that. There was somebody that you had some moment with today that you enjoyed, or you wouldn't want to keep going back up there because, and he does. So, give me a name.
 
Okay. Lenny. What happened with Lenny that was fun?
And I make him name it. Like I'm, I'm, I'm trying to coach him through it. And sure enough, he does have some sentences of what was fun today.
 
And it's like, good, let's, let's at least hold onto that in the midst of all the other stuff that's not right. Let's choose to see the thing that was good and that you enjoyed and that we could be thankful for. Not everybody got to have that today.
 
Again, I have to have my, I have to be the parent. I have to be the discipler. I have to be in, you know, in charge of my own soul that wants to be negative all the time and say, nope, we're going to, we're going to choose gratitude today because the Bible tells us to do that.
 
There's something about that posture that opens the door for the gospel to be expressed through us. So, let's practice.
 
Laura Dugger: (59:40 - 59:50) Well said, and there's so much we could continue learning from both of you. Where can we go after this chat to learn more from each one of you?
 
Brian Smith: (59:52 - 1:00:14) Yeah, we do a lot of our writing online at thechristianathlete.com. And so, if you go there, you can see articles that are specifically written for parents, for coaches, for athletes, all around this idea of what does it look like to integrate faith and sport together? So, there's Bible studies, devotional, there's other books that have been written, but thechristianathlete.com is where a lot of that, that stuff lies.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:00:16 - 1:00:22) Wonderful. Link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Ed, anything you wanted to add for where we can follow?
 
Ed Uszynski: (1:00:23 - 1:01:02) No, no. Anything that has to do with this topic for me is at thechristianathlete.com as well. And we're trying to be, you know, more available to churches, to Christian schools, like we said, to come do seminars; to have a three-hour, you know, take a three-hour block of time and bring parents together that want to be having these conversations.
 
We, we've been saying from the beginning with the book, even that we hope that people will not try to do this alone but will lock arms with other people in their church or their community. They're saying, let's, let's see if we can do this differently together. So, we want to be available to help y'all.
 
If anybody wants that, just reach out to us at thechristianathlete.com.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:01:03 - 1:01:20) Wonderful. Appreciate you sharing that. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Brian Smith: (1:01:23 - 1:02:04) Mine is, my mantra this year is consistency compounds. So, I've mentioned that with cross-country coaching. I tell my kids this weekly consistency compounds that if you want to be a good runner, just show up and run, get some sleep.
 
And then the next day, do it again and repeat and repeat and repeat. And the consistency will compound over time, and you will get better. And so, I take that even into my own walk with Jesus that I'm remembering consistency compounds with how I read my Bible and what I look at and what I'm stewarding to come into my mind really throughout all life that I want to continue to stack days and compound interest on that.
 
Ed Uszynski: (1:02:05 - 1:03:09) I like that, Brian, we need to get a T-shirt made with that on it. I would say changing the narrative. I tell myself about myself.
 
That's been huge for me the last years. And it kind of probably even comes out of that whole cup half empty thing. It's like, especially in marriage, I just spent a decade telling myself that I don't like going out in the woods.
 
And I married a girl that's a woodsy type person. She loves being at lakes. And at some point it's just like, well, dude, maybe the reason why God brought this person into your life was so that you would change and you actually could start to experience this and learn, like it.
 
And I just, there's so many things in my life that I've just gotten so used to telling myself, I don't like this, I don't like that, or I want this all the time, or I want that. And it's like, change the narrative you tell yourself about yourself and see what kind of joy that produces. Maybe God is actually trying to bring change for you, and you'll never find it if you just stick to this is who I am and what I am and how it's going to be.
 
It's been super helpful.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:03:11 - 1:03:33) Brian and Ed, those are so good. And I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I've learned from your parenting, from your passion, from the way that you are disciplined yourselves and disciple others.
 
There's so much goodness and you wrote with excellence in this book as well. I'm just so grateful. So, thank you for being my guest today.
 
Ed Uszynski: (1:03:34 - 1:03:35) Thank you, Laura.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:03:36 - 1:07:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

DONT MISS THIS! Controversial Sex Questions, Answered with Dr Juli Slattery (Episode 284)

*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.
 
DON'T MISS THIS! Controversial Sex Questions, Answered with Dr. Juli Slattery (Episode 284)
 
1 Samuel 24:19b NIV “May the Lord reward you well for the way you treated me today.”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Bio:
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Authentic Intimacy Website
Java with Juli Podcast
 
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
As Christ followers, should we use a friend’s preferred names and pronouns?
If one part of Scripture talks about turning the other cheek, is that the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?
Is it reasonable to assume that once they have a smartphone, 100% of kids will be exposed to pornography?
 
Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce, Including Past Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau 
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Cuthor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers
Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma
Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna 
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns 
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
222 Pornography: Protecting Children and Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black
Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery
Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
252 Maximizing Sexual Connections as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Cliff & Joyce Penner
260 Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen
277 Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:11 – 0:11)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 – 2:21) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
 
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
 
My returning guest for today is Dr. Juli Slattery.
 
She has authored another book entitled Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, and we're going to cover a few themes from this book, but I think what you're going to find most helpful are her candid responses to some really tricky questions related to dating and pornography, technology, thought life, shows that we watch as believers, divorce, and just intimacy in general as married couples.
 
So, I think this is an episode that you're going to want to learn from yourself, but you'll also want to share with others because Dr. Juli has offered us such a gift as she directs us back to the heart issues and wisely guides us into sexual integrity in our own lives.
 
Here's our chat.
 
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Juli.
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:21 – 2:21) Thanks so much for having me back. It's always a joy.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:21 – 2:22) Well, I love that you've been a repeat guest many times. So, we get to just dive right in today because I'm going to link all of your previous episodes in the show notes. But to dive in, I'm just curious, as believers, where does your heart break as you see us compromising on God's design for sex?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:22 – 3:31) Hmm. That's such a good question. You know, I think my heart breaks the most in that when we compromise God's design for sexuality, or even when we don't understand it or understand His goodness, it means that there is a breach in our relationship with God.
 
And so, I am so passionate about what I do, not necessarily because I love talking about sexuality, but because for a lot of people, sexuality represents a wall between them and God, like an issue they can't resolve, or a place of shame that they just can't quite shake free from, or battle with sin that they feel like they're enslaved to. And so, those things mean that there's a limit to how much they invite God into their lives.
 
And so, for me, that's where my heart breaks the most is, you know, ultimately, we were created for the greatest fellowship with God and anything that gets in the way of that is something that God cares about and something that I care about.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:32 – 4:03) You say that well, and you've written many books, but in this most recent one, you plainly state one issue when you write, “You will not be able to obey God with your sexual thoughts, while binging shows and music that continually display the exact opposite.”
 
And I love how practical that is. So, Juli, why do you think this has become so normalized? And I would say, especially in Christian marriages.
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (4:05 – 5:58) Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it is that the church has been historically really quiet about sexuality, you know, like we might talk about save sex for marriage, and don't cheat on your husband and that sort of thing. But the gray areas about how we think about our sexuality and kind of what we have the liberty and freedom to engage in, there's kind of silence, or maybe there's legalism.
 
And I think in that space, what ends up happening is the culture is so forthright with a message about sexuality, like woven throughout every single show that you could stream on any platform, you know, your music on Spotify, even the news you consume, the Instagram feeds, whatever, it's consistently showing you a way to understand sexuality that is contrary to God's design, and the messaging can be so subtle, or so repetitive that we don't even realize we're ingesting it.
 
And so, it's normal to talk about with your friends, like the latest season of The Bachelor, or, you know, the latest thing that you're streaming that if you really look at it, there's probably 100 references to sexuality that are outside of God's design. And so, we end up just having our mind conformed to this world.
 
And the scripture says really clearly in Romans 12, that we can't offer ourselves to God while we're still thinking like the world thinks that it requires an act of transformation of our thinking. And I don't know that there's anywhere more than we need this than in the topic of understanding our sexuality.
 
Laura Dugger: (6:00 – 6:59) Okay, so for I'm thinking of married couples, because I was recently at a wedding shower. And I love a friend from church. Her name is Dawn Karius. And she was giving the devotional and just sharing. You know, it's very easy to get married and fall into this trap. She was talking about what you watch specifically.
 
And she said, so many couples will watch something together, watch a show before bed, but be really intentional. If that is what you choose to do, then the shows that you're watching, even though you're with your spouse, is that drawing both of you closer to Christ? Because if it's pulling you further away from Christ, it's also pulling you away from one another.
 
And so, with all of that, and with what you've studied and written about, if a couple's hearing that and or some single person just hearing this, what would be your practical advice or encouragement for them?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (7:00 – 9:29) Yeah, some of it is, we can't live in a bubble. You know, it's, I think that there are some couples will have the conviction that, you know, we're just going to get rid of all of our devices, we're going to get rid of every streaming service. And there's nothing wrong with that decision, you might feel convicted to do that.
 
But for most couples, I would say, they're like, okay, we live in this world, we need to understand even the world we live in. And so, it's not like we're going to completely be cut off. But are we being discerning about what we consume?
 
And what are the standards that we might hit where we might just say, “You know what, we don't need to be watching this.” You know, like I can think of one show in particularly that my husband and I were watching. And it was a well-written show. It was exciting. But there was just so much profanity and just gross kind of sexual content that after two or three episodes, we're both just like, “You know what, as good as the show is, we just, this isn't, we're not watching this. Like we need to stop.”
 
And I think you need to have those discussions and you might have a different level of conviction than your spouse does. And that's okay, but at least have those conversations and you need to follow your conviction.
 
But then the other thing I would say that is equally important, if not more important, what are you consuming that helps you get God's perspective of sexuality? And what I've found is that a whole lot of Christian married couples know very little about what it looks like to build a healthy sex life in their marriage. And they're not consuming anything that helps them know how to love each other better, how to overcome differences, even how their bodies work, how to focus on one another and enjoy sex in a holy erotic way.
 
And so, even if you're watching and consuming very little content from the world, but you're not actively pursuing anything that gives you a biblical perspective, you're still going to end up defaulting to what the world says. And so, I think that again, it's equally as important or not, if not more important to be pursuing what's true and what's right and what's good.
 
Laura Dugger: (9:31 – 9:53) I love that, how you flipped it. And that discernment piece is huge because we don't want to be desensitized to then that we're consuming and we also want to feed on the good. So, I think it even leads to a broader question, again, as Christ followers, how can we recognize if our conscience is being pricked?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (9:54 – 12:05) Yeah, we can start by asking the Lord. You know, I mean, I think it's in, is it Psalm 139, where, you know, David is basically saying, “Search me, oh God, and know my thoughts, you know, show me if there's any offensive way within me.”
 
I think that's a beautiful prayer as an individual and as a couple, like God, we want to honor you with what we consume in media, with what we think about, would you guide us and would you show us? And then I think we all have that experience of watching something or listening to something or reading something where we're like, “Uh, I don't know, like, this is sort of a gray area. Like, I'm uncomfortable here. I probably shouldn't be watching this.” Or “Wow, that's really, that's really in your face. Like that's really graphic.”
 
And it's heeding the Holy Spirit when you get those prompts, instead of just pushing through and being like, “Ah, it's not that big of a deal. It's not going to affect me.” Like when you feel that sense of prompting, you respond to it and you say, “All right, I'm going to put this down. I'm going to shut this off.”
 
And, um, you know, the scripture says that we can become callous to those promptings of the Holy Spirit if we are in a habit of just running right through that. But we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit when we yield and when we obey.
 
Um, and so, I think even just keeping track, you know, every day or every week, like where were the times regarding this or anything else that I really felt convicted by the Holy Spirit about maybe something I said about a friend, uh, or about a little white lie I told, you know, where were the times where I really felt the Holy Spirit nudging me and what did I do? Um, where do I need to confess that I didn't respond well? And where do I need to celebrate that? Yes, I listened, I obeyed, I yielded. Um, and so, I think that's a practice we get into of either ignoring that conviction or really yielding to it.
 
Laura Dugger: (12:06 – 12:28) Hmm. And that gets after the heart issue, which Jesus is so concerned about our heart. And that's a very softened heart approach. Yes. I hope we can have. And as it relates to sexual integrity, then what are some other ways that we need to be on guard so that we're careful not to be misled?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (12:29 – 13:37) Yeah, boy, I think there's just so much conversation. Um, again, even in Christian circles, sometimes around having a negative attitude towards sex, um, kind of accepting some forms of pornography as normal and even good, you know, husband bashing, wife bashing, you know, like complaining, kind of letting the thought feed in your mind of maybe I should have married somebody else.
 
Maybe that my life would be easier if I, I weren't married to this person. I wish they were this or that. So, sort of that discontent that is natural to feel in marriage. But the question is, what do you do with it? Do you give it space to grow and to nurture, or do you bring that before the Lord?
 
Um, so, I think those are some of the ways that we want to look at, like, how am I giving the enemy space in my life and in my marriage versus how am I inviting God to really reclaim what's broken here?
 
Laura Dugger: (13:38 – 14:01) Well, and then even thinking of the other side to guard ourselves from having a critical and judgmental spirit toward others or just having self-righteous pride. Can you educate us on some common reasons why some people may be predisposed to struggle with some certain sexual sins?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (14:02 – 17:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important, um, because the research really shows that some of us are more, I don't know if I'd say it that way, but we are going to be more predetermined maybe to struggle with things like pornography or same-sex attraction, or even hooking up.
 
And it's never like a one plus one equals two exactly. But there are what we might say indicators or risk factors that make you more vulnerable to those kinds of sexual struggles. And some of them might be unhealthy family dynamics growing up, you know, none of us had a perfect family, but let's say you grew up in a family where one of your parents was like overtly critical towards you all the time.
 
Maybe you went through a divorce with your parents where, um, you know, at a certain age, you just, your family fell apart and you're kind of looking for that stability and love. People who have experienced sexual trauma in childhood or the teen years are going to be more pre-dispositioned to want to understand that or act that out.
 
People who might struggle with anxiety. And, you know, some of it is we got to understand that sex, because it elicits dopamine in our brain and oxytocin and endorphins, which are all really feel good kind of experiences and hormones and neurotransmitters. When we had a sexual experience at a young age, our brain can learn, “Oh, this is how I deal with stress. This is how I deal with depression. This is how I deal with loneliness.”
 
So, a lot of times when you talk to somebody who has an ongoing struggle with a sexual temptation or sin, it's because they've learned as a pattern from maybe the time they were 10 years old or 12 years old or 15 years old, that this is how I dealt with the stress in my family. This is how I dealt with when my father died. This is how I dealt with when I was sexually abused. Like this was the way that I found to self-regulate and to self-medicate and to find comfort.
 
And that can be masturbation. It can be pornography or again, you know, acting out sexually. And so, for people who have that kind of story, and this might be your spouse, or this might be against somebody that you're looking at and judging to just say, “You need to stop that behavior,” is often not going to be enough. They need to do the work of really looking at what am I using sex for? What are the wounds that I'm using sex to cover up?
 
And how do I actually get the healing I need and find healthier and safer ways for me to cope with negative emotions? And that's why groups are really important for people who have sexual struggles. Counseling is really important. And again, that long journey of healing and freedom, not just a one-time decision that I'm going to try to never do this again.
 
Laura Dugger: (17:21 – 20:19) Love that word freedom, even because that hope is available. And just pointing out how you said this is not deterministic. That's not what we're saying is if you experience something, you will act out sexually. But I agree with you that it is fascinating and helpful to hear the correlation of certain things that happen, especially in childhood, and how that plays out long-term.
 
And I am blanking on which guest it was on The Savvy Sauce, but somebody was enlightening me. I think it was for females that if they were sexually abused, typically before a certain age, then they were more likely to struggle in marriage with wanting to completely avoid sex. But then if it was after a certain age, that it was completely opposite where they maybe used sex to medicate, or they were very aggressive and even would act out, let's say in single years, that they would sleep around with a bunch of partners if they had been wounded.
 
And so, I just think it just, it helps us to not be judgmental of one another. We don't know the full story.
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (20:20 – 21:09) Yes. Yeah. There's always more there than we usually realize at first. And, you know, this plays out a lot in marriage because there are a lot of women who are married to guys who are addicted to pornography. And that's a deeply painful dynamic. That's really hard.
 
But to understand that your husband didn't want to have this struggle, often doesn't know how to get out of it, you know, gives you compassion. It doesn't mean that you look the other way, you need to get help, and you need to insist on getting help. But it does give you empathy and compassion that there's something underlying this and feeding it. It's not just, “Oh, I think I'm going to, you know, look at porn and hurt my wife again,” that there's always a deeper dynamic at work.
 
Laura Dugger: (21:10 – 21:50) Absolutely. And even an example from your book, I'll just read a quote where you said, “I spoke with a man who runs a sexual addiction program. He told me he had never met someone with sexual addiction, who did not also have significant sexual or psychological trauma in their past.”
 
And I think it goes along with what we're saying. But if we also then flip it and look at more of the positive side, how can we rightly prioritize connection and intimacy in marriage as God intended?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (21:53 – 24:24) I think first of all, we need to be convinced that this is worth it. You know, when we look at everything there is to do in life, there's so many worthy demands on our time. You know, from I want my house to look nice, and we need to make friends and we need to be an outreach to our community. And our kids are taking a lot of time and they should, and they've got all their activities and our church needs our help. Like when do you have time to do all this? And then, oh yeah, prioritize your marriage.
 
And I think we have to become convinced that if we're not working on our marriage, and specifically if we're not working on the sexual connection in marriage, then all those other things have the potential to fall apart. That the way I've learned it over time is that sex is never going to be a neutral issue in your marriage. It's either going to be something that is bonding you together and causing you to work on the deeper levels of intimacy, even as you talk through sexual difficulties, or it's going to be something not immediately, but over time, that becomes a wedge between you.
 
It might start as a wedge of resentment of my needs aren't getting met, or I feel like you're objectifying me or you're putting pressure on me. Or it might be a deeper wedge of a pornography addiction or something that's not being addressed. Or I don't trust my husband because of my trauma. And those things don't just stay dormant. The wedge becomes bigger and bigger and bigger until you get to the place where now you're not comfortable being in the same room anymore and you feel like roommates. And then now one of you is attracted to somebody else and the story plays on.
 
And there are very wonderful godly men and women who have gotten married with every purpose to stay together. But a wedge like this has grown over time to the point where they're now thinking about divorce or one of them has cheated on the other. And so, we have to be convinced that honoring God in our lives means prioritizing our marriage, and it means working on this intimate aspect of our marriage so that we can be a stable foundation for our families and our churches and our communities.
 
Laura Dugger: (24:26 – 24:39) And so, if we're getting as practical as possible, what are the best practices that you've seen in married couples who are happily married? How have you experienced that?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (24:40 – 28:04) Yeah. I'll put it in kind of like a cliche sort of way because I think sometimes that's catchy. Number one, I would say they're couples who will resist the drift, who will repair the rift, and who will adjust to the shift.
 
So, I can kind of break that down a little bit. But you know, the first thing is resisting the drift of you can go weeks without meaningfully connecting with your spouse. And I don't just mean sexually, but I mean like eye to eye, you know, just loving touch, just connecting to their hearts. And so, couples who know how to resist that drift, like they have regular times built into their calendar where this is where we connect every day. Like even for 10 minutes, this is where we hold each other's hands, we look at each other in the eye, we really connect with what's in your heart, how are you? And they have regular rhythms of once a week or once every other week, we're going to go out and do something fun together, just the two of us. We've worked through what sex looks like in this season. Like how many times do we want to have sex? Are we scheduling that? How are we making sure that's a priority? And so, that's the resisting the drift.
 
And the second one is repairing the rift. And at every marriage, there are going to be things that tear you apart. And sometimes those things might be sexual in nature, like a temptation, an emotional affair, pornography use, sometimes it's going to be something else where you have a deep disagreement that you can't resolve on your own. And you need to be courageous enough to reach out for help and say, like, if we don't get help, if we don't address this issue, like it's going to become something that tears us apart. Any couple that you meet who is happily married for like 30 years or more, they can tell you a story of when they had a rift, and the kind of help that really address that.
 
And then I think the third thing is adjusting to the shift. And in even the normal stages of marriage, there are shifts that happen. Like, you know, I'm in the stage right now where me and the people my age are going through biological changes with menopause and with aging. And, you know, some people are going through becoming grandparents and retirement. And there's all these shifts that are happening even naturally. There's other couples that are younger who are going through the shift of pregnancy and battling infertility. And some people are going through cancer. And there are things that happen that require you to shift your expectations. And to not just wish that it is like it used to be. But this is the marriage we have now. Here are the circumstances we have now. Here are the bodies we have now. How do we learn to love each other and embrace this season, given the changes that we're experiencing?
 
And so, I think that's a framework that I've seen healthy couples navigate over time that really fosters intimacy.
 
Laura Dugger: (28:05 – 29:29) That is incredible. I love how you put that. And I've shared with you before that my background is in Christian sex therapy. So, sex is a topic that does come up a lot and people feel comfortable sharing or asking questions. So, just in regular conversation, I want to recap two conversations that kind of show stances on both ends of the spectrum.
And I'd love to hear your wisdom on how to respond to each one.
 
So, first, there was a Christian married woman with children, and she was teaching younger women to say yes to every single sexual advance from their husband. And she said, “If your husband has the higher drive, and he wants to have sex twice a day, then consider yourself lucky. And don't ever say no, because your body is not your own.” Yeah, it's hard to recap. So, this is not my perspective. So, sharing both ends.
 
So, that was one person. And then on the other end, I've heard a woman tell me, “You know, I just didn't feel like having sex for about a year and a half after we had our baby. So, I just told my husband, you're going to have to wait.”
 
So, loaded question, but Dr. Juli, how would you respond to each of those?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (29:29 – 32:31) Well, Laura, I feel like you probably would have just as good of response as I would to those. Yeah, I like that you're presenting those as two extremes, because they are two extremes. And I think both extremes kind of miss the heart. We want to be able to say yes to sex and intimacy. And being able to say yes means also being able to say no.
 
In that first situation, essentially, what is going to end up happening is that that wife is going to start feeling like my husband wants me for sex. And I don't have the capacity to enjoy it twice a day. I'm starting to feel like an object or used. And the husband is never going to learn that covenant love requires self-denial. And at every level, you know, what did, what did Paul say to husbands in Ephesians 5, like love your wife as you love your own body and be willing to lay down your, your life for your wife. And that means being sensitive to the fact that she doesn't have the same sexual appetite as you do. She doesn't have the same biology you do, that it actually can be physically painful, emotionally traumatic for a wife to have sex when she's not physically ready. Really, that couple is not working on intimacy. They're, they're kind of reinforcing a pattern that sex is about the husband getting his needs and desires met only through the wife without considering her. And that might work for short term, but that's not building intimacy in the long term. And it's not teaching either of them. And that wife needs to learn her own sexual desires and patterns and be able to communicate those to her husband. So, that's what I would say in that first one.
 
And the second one, essentially, you have a wife kind of having that more selfish perspective of, I only have sex when I want it and on my terms, instead of considering the husband. And, you know, how do I focus on him? How do I work on experiencing sexual desire? How do I foster that? Because it's important for my husband, it's important for our marriage. And I don't want to be selfish.
 
And so, I think both of those situations are kind of approaching sex where one person gets to be selfish, and the other person has to sacrifice. That's ministry, that's not intimacy. And so, we really want to be at a place where both of us, the higher desire one and the lower desire one, are learning what does it look like to really love well, to love sacrificially and to communicate the ways that I feel loved. I don't know, what would you add to that or change?
 
Laura Dugger: (32:31 – 33:11) That's why I asked you, you said that beautifully, better than I could have responded. And again, you're getting back to the heart of it and pointing us back to Jesus with each answer. And, you know, commonly people do struggle with having a safe place where they can ask candid questions about sex.
 
So, I am going to throw some more at you. And some of these are ones that you wrote about. But just to give us a little taste, even of the book, or if somebody has a burning question like this, I'd love your healthy response.
 
So, how do you respond when people ask, “How far is too far to go in a dating relationship?”
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (33:14 – 36:32) Yeah, I think people are looking for a line, you know, like, as long as I don't cross this line, are we good? And of course, I think their traditional line would be as long as you're not having intercourse. But I think that misses the larger context of the purpose of sex. I've had to be convicted of this in my own life. And we talked very early in our conversation about how we've just sort of ingested messages from the culture. And the culture says that healthy sexuality is an expression of how I feel, right? So, so if I feel safe with you, if I feel romantically connected to you, if I feel sexually attracted to you, then it would be healthy for me to engage sexually with you. And then Christians would come and say, yes, but as long as you don't cross this line. So, that's sort of the narrative that I think a lot of us have heard in the church.
 
But if we look at, from a biblical perspective, God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. Okay, let that sink in for a minute. God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. He designed it to be a seal and a celebration of covenant, of the choice that a man and a woman make to covenant their lives to one another. And for them to say, just like I give you my whole life, I promise faithfulness to you. I promise that we are becoming one as a family. We have now a physical way to symbolize that in becoming one with our bodies. And so, even if I feel romantically attached to somebody I'm not married to, I don't act on that. Or even if I don't feel romantically attached to my husband, we work on our sex life because we're in covenant.
 
And so, when you begin to understand sex from that standpoint, you answer that question differently of how far can I go? Why are you sharing your body with another person when you haven't shared your life with them? And, you know, I think that the standard is not legalistic, but the heart of the question is a lot, that's a harder question. You know, like it says, and I think 2 Thessalonians or 1 Thessalonians, you know, Paul says, the will of God is that you do not engage in sexual immorality. Don't take advantage of a brother or sister.
 
And how many times in dating relationships do you look back and you're like, “Wow, I gave too much of myself to that person or I took too much of myself from that person. Like we engaged in things that now we're broken apart. Like I wish I could take back.” And so, what does it look like to honor each other? What does it look like to honor the Lord? So, I think those kinds of questions help you get to the heart of how do we steward dating relationships a lot better than looking for a line we're not supposed to cross.
 
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As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? So, how would you respond to that?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (37:32 – 39:20) Boy, this is a hot topic. There are people who have really strong opinions on this. You're saying, do I use a friend's preferred names and pronouns?
 
And I think the fact that you have a friendship means that you can have a deeper conversation about the meaning of the names and pronouns. And I think that deeper conversation needs to happen. Because, you know, ultimately we don't like, we don't want to just say, “Oh yeah, whatever you want to call yourself is fine with me. Truth doesn't matter.” But on the other hand, we really want to get to the spiritual issue underneath this. And there's a, there's a big difference between somebody who doesn't know the Lord, doesn't know where you stand on any of this, and somebody that you can engage in a conversation with and seek wisdom on.
 
I think there, there's probably more latitude to use somebody's preferred name than pronouns. And I think in friendships, sometimes you can work that through and just say, you know, “Hey, I love you. I understand where you're coming from. I'm going to try my best to use the name that you're asking. But the pronoun is something that I'm not comfortable with. And here's why. And just like I'm, I want to understand where you are. I hope that you would have grace and understand where I am.” So, in a friendship, you're able to have those kinds of conversations. Whereas if it's a coworker or it's a stranger or a neighbor, sometimes we can't have that level of conversation. And so, I, we might choose to handle the situation a little differently.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:21 – 39:36) That's good. A hundred percent truth, a hundred percent love or kindness. And what if somebody asks, how much attention should we be giving these secondary issues as believers?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (39:39 – 41:03) Boy, I, I think first of all, the secondary issues come out of the primary issues. So, the primary issue, and you know, the issue I wrote Surrendered Sexuality is about is if my life belongs to the Lord, then my whole life needs to belong to Him, including how I think about cultural issues, including how I treat my neighbor.
 
And so, I don't see them as secondary issues. I see them as an outgrowth of the primary issue. I think when they become secondary issues are when we argue with other believers about it and it becomes the most important thing. Like I put you in a category based on, will you use preferred names and pronouns? And then I think we're missing what God calls us to.
 
The primary issue is that we want to honor God and we want to love each other. And so, let's keep going back to that primary issue. How do I love my neighbor well? How do I honor God's truth well? How do I pursue unity within the body of Christ well, as we're navigating some of these secondary issues? So, you know, like if we're going back to the primary issue, it means that we have to talk about the secondary issues, but we talk about them in light of what's primary.
 
Laura Dugger: (41:04 – 41:17) I like that. And I just have three more of these kind of tricky questions. So, another one, does pornography addiction qualify as reasons for a biblical divorce?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (41:20 – 42:50) I would say, first of all, technically, if we look at the word for sexual immorality in the scripture, which is porneia, we would say, yeah, you know, pornography does qualify for that.
 
But for the person who's asking this, maybe the woman who's asking this, I would say, why do you want to get out of the marriage? And what Jesus said is Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of your heart. And I think a more important question is where's your heart and where's your husband's heart? Because I've seen people with pornography addictions who have really open hearts towards healing, and they're willing to get the help that they need. They're repentant. They're willing to do the work. They're willing to go through even a time of separation to show that they're serious about that work.
 
And then there are people who have very hard hearts of, “This is who I am. I might go through the motions, but I'm really not interested in change.” And so, I think the pornography addiction is less the issue than the posture of the person's heart and their willingness to work. And if your spouse is willing to work, then I think it's on us to have soft hearts too, and to be open to the work that God can do.
 
Laura Dugger: (42:51 – 43:34) That's good because saying you have to zoom out and see more of the story in that stance, because that's very different. Somebody who's working on it and hates the struggle and is wanting to break free versus being married to a narcissist who is abusing you and treating you in a certain way and addicted to pornography. So, you point out well that all of these questions have more to them.
 
Okay. So, two more, if a spouse has had an emotional affair in the past with a coworker, but they still work with this person, what is the wise thing to do and how should they handle it if their spouse is uncomfortable with them still working there?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (43:36 – 44:33) Yeah, boy, that's something that I would want to seek counseling on. You and your spouse really need to get with a counselor and talk that through. The generic advice in that situation would be to get a different job, to not have that relationship still a temptation or available.
 
But there are sometimes very extenuating circumstances where that's not a possibility, or at least for now, that's not a possibility. And so, I would really encourage you to meet with a third party to sort through the details of your particular situation. Because it could be that your spouse isn't willing to take that hard step of cutting off that relationship, or it could be that they're willing, but again, there's extenuating circumstances. And I would really want a wise person who is engaging with you to help you navigate that.
 
Laura Dugger: (44:34 – 44:44) But I love that, how you highlight that something to look for though, is that you would hope your spouse would be willing to make that right, especially if they were the offending.
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (44:46 – 44:46) Okay.
 
Laura Dugger: (44:47 – 45:00) And then also, Juli, because scripture does talk about turning the other cheek, does that mean it's the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (45:02 – 47:41) Absolutely not. If you were in an abusive marriage, you are not doing your spouse any good. You are allowing your spouse to be in a place where they're destroying their own life and they're destroying the people that they love.
 
Now you say, okay, where biblically do we see this? We see that Jesus, he says in John, he says, “I laid down my life for my sheep. I lay it down willingly. No one has the authority to take it from me. I have the authority to lay it down and I have the authority to take it up again.” And we see Him living that out with religious leaders who were after Him all the time, who wanted to stone Him, who were accusing Him of things. It says over and over again that Jesus escaped from them. He just got out of there until it was time that the Father said, now is the time for you to give yourself for the world.
 
So, we take that principle and we say, Jesus was not abused. Jesus did not let Himself be abused. He gave Himself as a lamb to the slaughter as a sacrifice for the Father and for the world. But that's very different. Up until that time, we see Him have great boundaries. We see Him not get, it even says He didn't entrust Himself to man because He knew what was in their hearts. I mean, He had boundaries with people that could have hurt Him.
 
And I also love when we see this in the story of King David and Saul, when Saul is chasing David, Saul is abusive, right? He wants to kill David. And so, David escapes. And there's a situation where David has the power or the opportunity to kill Saul and he doesn't do it. And then Saul just is struck by his conscience, and he comes back to David. He goes, “You're a better man than I am. I'm so sorry. You know, come back with me and I'll treat you well.” And even though David doesn't take revenge, he doesn't go back with Saul. He's still, he's like, “You go your way. I'll go my way. I'm going to let the Lord judge between us.”
 
And I think that's a great model. If you're in any kind of abusive relationship, you don't take revenge, but you also don't stay in that situation. You go your way, let them go their way, and you let God judge between you. And I think we see that over and over again in scripture.
 
Laura Dugger: (47:42 – 48:19) I think that is so well said. And it reminds me of a somewhat recent conversation in 2025 with Stacey Womack who's saying with domestic violence, really the way God would see it is child abuse. And that kind of helps our paradigm because we are His child.
 
And she elaborates on that. So, I said that that was the last one, but I actually thought of one more as it relates to our children.
 
So, is it reasonable to assume that once a child has a smartphone, 100% of them will be exposed to pornography?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (48:21 – 49:15) Yeah, it is. And I would say not just once they have a smartphone, because I know with one of my kids, we delayed the smartphone decision, but he had a learning disability that required him to have an iPad for school. And somehow, even though we locked down all the apps, somehow he's able to access it through that. Or it can be a gaming system, or it can be a friend's phone. And so, having a smartphone or device like that certainly makes it more probable.
 
But you know, like our kids are surrounded by screens and technology, not just what's in our home, but in other people's homes and at school. And so, I think it's safe to assume, unfortunately, that yes, 100% of our kids are going to be exposed to pornography, probably by the time they're 13 or 14.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:16 – 49:31) And sadly, some much younger than that. But even if there's parental controls, or filters put on, it is just something on my heart that we have to be so vigilant against.
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (49:32 – 50:12) Yeah, no, I felt like when, you know, I have three boys, and when they were all three kind of in those teen years, I felt like I was trying to plug holes in a boat, and there'd be new ones popping up all the time. Whether it's like apps, or you know, things that you think are completely safe. Somehow, pornography can get through.
 
And our kids are smart, like they know the workarounds to the parental things. And that's why we just need to have conversation after conversation, just discipling them, not just protecting them from pornography, but discipling them through what they're inevitably going to be exposed to.
 
Laura Dugger: (50:13 – 51:05) That's a great point that not just being reactive, but proactive. I think why I have such a heart for this is because practicing and doing therapy and having so many people come in those wounds, that if that addiction gets a stronghold, and that pornography use, it just can wreak havoc in people long term. And so, if we can do that hard work of discipling early on, it is such a blessing to our children, to the generation.
 
So, I'm just so grateful for your candid responses. And I think it's also a helpful reminder just to never take on a burden that was never meant for us to carry. So, are there any ways that God has taught you to not try and do His business?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (51:07 – 52:16) Yeah. Boy, that's such a great question. I've had to come to the conclusion that I can't convince anyone of right and wrong. You know, like, I can't convince anyone that pornography is wrong, or gay marriage is wrong, or you know, like, that's not my job. My job is to walk with the Lord with integrity and faithfulness and to testify as to who He is.
 
And so much of this work, whether we're talking about marriage or our friends or our children, so much of this work has to be the Lord's work. And you reach a stage with your kids when they hit those teen years, where you realize the things my kids most need, I can't give them. I can't give them a relationship with God. I can't give them the desire to follow and seek the Lord. Like, I can model that for them. I can encourage them. But that is between them and the Lord. And if I try to control that, I'm just getting in the way of the work that God wants to do in their lives.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:18 – 52:33) Goodness, I will need to write that down and reflect on that. That is so good, Juli. And there's still so much more that you could share with us.
 
So, where is your preferred place that we can go online and continue learning from you?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (52:34 – 52:48) Yeah, I would say two places. Number one, our website is authenticintimacy.com. And the second one is the podcast that I do called Java with Juli. It goes along with The Savvy Sauce, you know, like they kind of go together.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:49 – 53:11) Yes, absolutely. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode.
 
And you're familiar, I've asked you many times before, because we are called savvy, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, Dr. Juli, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (53:13 – 53:58) Oh, I don't even remember how I answered this the last few times. I think I may have said this before, but I think reading the dead old guys is one of my savvy sauce, like reading people who didn't live in this generation who loved the Lord.
 
And learning from them is just, that's probably taught me more discernment than anything, because they just cut right through the cultural noise that I think sometimes can blind us. And they really help me see my heart for what it is and help me really want to pursue God at a deeper level.
 
Laura Dugger: (53:59 – 54:03) Wow. Any specific recommendations that have been personal favorites there?
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:04 – 54:22) Yeah, I love A.W. Tozer. I love many of Andrew Murray's books, particularly Humility and Absolute Surrender. And C.S. Lewis is another great one, Mere Christianity. So, those are some that I would recommend you start with.
 
Laura Dugger: (54:23 – 54:44) That is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.
 
And Juli, it's just always such a delight to get to share an hour of conversation with you. And you are just this beautiful mixture of bold and gentle and humble, all combined into one. So, thank you for being my returning guest today.
 
Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:44 – 54:49) Oh, thank you. And it's such a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for your great questions.
 
Laura Dugger: (54:51 – 58:33) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Sharing the Mental Load in Marriage and its Positive Correlation to Enjoying Great Sex: Interview with Dr. Morgan Cutlip (Episode 283)

*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.
 
Hebrews 12:15 NLT “Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
About Dr. Morgan Cutlip: 
It's hard to know where to start so I'll start with what matters most to me and that's my relationships.
 
I'm a mother to two kids, Effie (12) and Roy (9). They are hilarious, spirited, spicy, deeply thoughtful and emotional kids. I adore them and being their mother. They've challenged me in the most surprising and wonderful ways. I'm married to my high school sweetheart, Chad. I always feel like I lose a little street cred when I say that so, for the record, we didn't date that entire time and eventually reconnected years after college on MySpace (yup, now I've aged myself). He's the love of my life, an incredible man that loves others deeply, works so very hard, and continues to be open to growth and change.
 
I’ve worked in the field of relationship education for over 15 years alongside my father, Dr. John Van Epp, who is the founder of Love Thinks and developer of multiple relationship education courses that have been taught to over a million people worldwide. I started traveling to conferences with him when I was in junior high and so, in many ways, it feels like I’ve grown up in the relationship education field. He’s amazing and brilliant and I’m blessed to have learned so much from him over the years we worked together and just cherish our relationship.
 
I distinctly remember a conversation with my dad over 20 years ago where I said that someday I wanted to support women, but I just wasn’t sure how.
 
Fast forward 10 years and Effie (our oldest) was born and, holy moly, did motherhood hit me like a ton of bricks and I completely lost myself in motherhood (you can read the full story in my book). 🙂 I knew that one day when I came out of the fog of early motherhood I wanted to do something to help moms navigate it better.
 
I had a lot of skill and practice translating psychological theory, research, and concepts into tangible and practical advice so I got to work creating accessible content to help moms navigate their relationship with their kids, partners, and themselves differently.
 
Through my career, I created the My Love Thinks blog, the @DrMorganCutlip Instagram, the Love Thinks Podcast, and The Mother Load course along with other courses, workshops, and targeted eGuides and authored the book Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself: 5 Steps to Banish Guilt & Beat Burnout When You Already Have Too Much to Do. These tools have been accessed by hundreds of thousands of women worldwide.Dr. Morgan’s Website
Dr. Morgan’s Books
Dr. Morgan’s Instagram
 
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Francie Hinrichsen, Founder of Founding Females and Author of Dream, Build, Grow
 
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 
269 Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston
 
Related Article from Savvy Snacks:
Marriage Scripture I am Loving
 
Topics and Questions We Discuss:
Will you define mental load and walk us through the reasons why it’s silently crushing marriages today…and will you also explain why universally, mothers are the ones impacted the most? 
What’s the correlation between sharing the mental load and enjoying a more exhilarating sex life in marriage? 
What’s the vision you can cast for us if we put systems in place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage, even if it feels cumbersome at first?
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 - 0:10)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:06) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
 
If you are looking to start a business or side hustle, but you're not sure how to begin, I want to encourage you to pick up your copy of Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. You can find it at foundingfemalesco.com.
 
First of all, I want to wish a very happy birthday to my amazing husband, Mark. I hope it's an awesome day, and thank you, babe, for leading this part of our marriage so well. I love you so much and hope it's a great day.
 
Today, I get to interview Dr. Morgan Cutlip, and she's a relationship expert and an author. And this second book that she released is entitled A Better Share: How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment, and Great Sex. We're going to dive into each of those subcategories, and this chat is amazing for both husbands and wives.
 
And I think it's going to leave you with motivation and ideas rather than any shame or resentment. So especially if you're parents, I hope you listen in. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Morgan.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (1:54 – 1:56) Thank you so much for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:57 – 2:06) I'd love to just start here, because you're a relationship expert. What does your daily life in work actually look like?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (2:07 - 3:07) Oh, my God. No one has ever asked me this. Okay, so we have two kids.
 
I'm married, been married for 17 years. We just celebrated our anniversary, and we have two kids, 12 and 9, and we do a homeschool hybrid. So, my work life, it might look like I work a lot, but it's usually cramming it into weird times.
 
But they go to an academy or a school with other homeschool families three days a week. So, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the days that I try to do all of the things and get all of my work done. And then Mondays and Fridays, I am with the kids.
 
And then my husband travels just about every week for work. So, a lot of times I'm sort of just cruising solo and outsourcing as much as I can handle and can afford and feel okay about and just trying to squeeze as much out of my time and my energy that I can.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:08 - 3:14) I love it, and I'm relating. I'm a homeschooling mom as well, so fitting it all in when you can.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:15 – 3:16) Yes, yes.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:17 – 3:22) And then those days that you are working or doing writing or different things, what does your work life look like?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:23 - 4:06) Yeah, so usually, you know, right now I just finished launching my second book. So, I'm really trying to move a little slower, take a little break. I launched two books in three years, wrote them and launched them.
 
And so, it felt like a really just an extended season of just constant time famine and busyness. So right now, my work life is doing interviews like this. I'm working on developing some new courses.
 
I've developed two so far. I'm working on another one right now, launching those, creating some content, doing workshops. I'm speaking at a conference this weekend.
 
So, it varies every single week what my work life looks like.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:06 - 4:32) Very real picture. And I loved in your last book just how you define mental load. So, can you give us a definition of mental load and walk us through the reasons why it seems to be silently crushing marriages today and why it is that universally mothers are typically the ones who suffer the most?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (4:33 - 8:23) Yeah, so I'm just going to give if we need to go into a deeper definition, I will as we're chatting. So, I'm just going to give the 30,000-foot definition and then answer your other questions. So, the mental load is the seemingly never-ending running to do list that we carry around in our minds.
 
It has two key components. The first is that the majority of tasks in the mental load are invisible. The invisibility of these tasks makes it really hard to explain to our partners to get appreciation around for it even to be seen by members of our family and to outsource.
 
The second aspect is that the mental load takes up cognitive real estate. So, this just means that it takes up space in our brains that tends to crowd out energy and space that we need for other things like patients, like being present, remembering things. You know, a lot of us will say, oh, I have mom brain, you don't know, I put my keys.
 
Well, a lot of times it's because we have so much of our brain space occupied by other things. We're sort of become a bit more forgetful. It can crowd out space for creative energy and in relationships, it can crowd out the space to really find our desire around our sexual life.
 
So, the mental load is interesting because it's talked about on social media as a women's issue. But everybody has a mental load. This is not something that is unique to women.
 
Where it is unique to women is that in home and family life, the majority of tasks associated with the mental load is carried by women. And so even though women are working in massive amounts outside of the home or inside of the home or have side hustles or full-time jobs, we're still doing the majority of the labor involved in the mental load. And so, what happens in our relationships is that it starts to develop into a feeling of unfairness.
 
A lot of times the women tend to start to feel very overwhelmed. And then this unfairness starts to breed resentment. And one of the most common cycles that I see happening in relationships is that usually really kicks in after kids.
 
So mental load exists before kids, after kids, it gets real big, really fast. And it's that the woman will feel like her life has shifted in a pretty significant and just like palpable way. While her partners has sort of stayed relatively the same, even though that's not entirely true, but it feels that way.
 
And eventually she'll reach a place where she kind of gets, you know, depending on how comfortable she feels sharing what's going on with her. She gets overwhelmed. She approaches her partner.
 
Her partner doesn't fully understand it. Some of the most common and unfortunate responses are getting defensive around it. You know, I do a lot too.
 
You're saying I don't do enough. It's never enough for you. Minimizing it or the sort of hardship Olympics where the two people start competing around who's doing more.
 
And so over time she learns that she can't talk about this with her partner without going through all of that rigmarole. And so, she either starts to get louder, which shifts their marital dynamic in a really significant way because she becomes the nagging mother and he's the child she's sort of chasing after. Or she shoves it down and distance and disconnection really starts to take root.
 
And it's unfortunate because a lot of times, even though she's come to him, he still doesn't quite maybe understand what's going on. And so, both partners start to really disconnect. And it becomes, once you get years down the line, it can become hard to understand where this disconnection really originated from.
 
I think I'm missing a question in there, but I'm going to pause.
 
Laura Dugger: (8:24 - 8:34) No, you actually conquered all of those. Why it is that mothers have it and what the definition is and why it's silently crushing marriages.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (8:34 - 12:18) Yeah, I'm happy to go into a little bit why women tend to carry it because I think it's really important to understand how this happens. I have a really strong belief that when it comes to this area of our relationships, we really need to come at it with a goal of understanding each other's perspectives, how these things developed, how we got to where we are. So that we can sort of depersonalize some of the patterns that have developed in our relationship and actually then confront them as a team.
 
So, part of the reason women tend to carry the mental load, there's several, I'll just cover a couple. But one is the socialization of women and just our society, which is that women are socialized to self-sacrifice for the preservation of our relationships. Men are socialized to provide financial and physical security.
 
So, what this means is that we enter into our relationships once they're committed and then parenthood with different set of priorities. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is what tends to happen.
 
And also, society holds us to standards around these different priorities. So, I remember not that long ago, our son was going to an event at school in the evening and it was cold and it was raining. And I was like, grab your coat.
 
And he kept arguing with me and he finally said, “Mom, I'm not going to wear it. So, then I'll probably lose it, which then you'll be upset with me for losing it. And I'm not wearing it anyway.”
 
And so, I was like, thanks for having some insight into yourself. But you know, the moms are going to see you freezing your butt off in the rain and they'll be like, why didn't his mom give him a coat? They're not asking why his dad didn't.
 
So, we're held to different standards around different areas. And so, we hold ourselves to these different sets of expectations around home and family life, how the kids are cared for, how the home's maintained. It's usually where women tend to focus, whereas men are like, I got to provide, you know, all these things.
 
And so that I say the game is rigged. That sets us up to really focus on different areas of our relationship. The second thing that I think happens is that because women are this way and there's also physiological component, but I want to talk about that piece, but because women are socialized this way, we tend to do things in our relationships way back when, even in dating, out of love and out of care for our partners.
 
And the first time we do it, usually our partner is really grateful. “You're the best. What would I do without you? You're awesome.” And it feels good to give, which is wonderful. It's a beautiful thing.
 
The second time we do it, they're like, “Gee, thanks.” The third time they're not even recognizing it. It's invisible.
 
We have taken it on, and it has become removed from our partner's awareness. And now we own it. We do this, especially before kids, over and over and over again in our relationships.
 
We take something on. There's no discussion. There's no negotiation.
 
And so, our plates pile up pretty full. I often refer to women as the bounty quicker picker uppers. We're super absorbent.
 
So, we get really saturated by soaking all these things up. And then kids enter the picture. And overnight, the amount of responsibilities grow exponentially.
 
And then we reach a point where we're like, we can't do all this. How come you don't see all these things that need done when we've been doing it all these years? And it's not placing blame.
 
It's just pointing out a pattern that's pretty benign, pretty typical that we have to learn how to walk back in our relationships.
 
Laura Dugger: (12:19 - 13:05) It's so good. And as we're learning how to walk back in our relationships and navigate this, I love how you define kind of a vision for us on page five, where you talk about how you help couples to experience, I'll quote you, “greater feelings of love, attraction, trust, commitment, reliability, and usually a way more exhilarating sex life. All from simply handling this mental load in a way that works for both of them.”
 
So, Dr. Morgan, can you give some examples and share how we can do this in marriage, kind of moving to some of the solutions once we've identified this problem?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (13:07 - 15:52) Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to unpack around the solutions. So, I'll give a big picture one and then I'm happy to give like a really practical one. But one of the biggest is that couples have to learn how to talk about this area of their relationship without it spiraling into any sort of argument.
 
And the reason is, is because the mental is not going anywhere. You know, we keep trying to like solve it. This is one small example of how we handle everything in society.
 
It seems like we're trying to find that permanent fix. But the reality is, is that life changes every single day. New demands are thrown on our plates; curve balls come our way.
 
And so, it changes the demand and the intensity of the mental load. And so, if we're in a relationship, we have to be able to regularly touch base about these things and negotiate who's handling what. We have to be able to do that in a way that feels like we're in it together.
 
And so, one of the perspectives that I have that's maybe a little bit different than what's out there currently on this topic is that we have to approach the mental load as the shared enemy in our relationship. So, you externalize that. So, if you're going to talk to your partner, instead of saying something along the lines of like, you really need to step it up.
 
You're not doing enough. You don't, don't you see what needs done? I really need you to help more.
 
I'm, I'm drowning over here. Like, what's, what are you doing? I'm doing all these things.
 
It is a much more productive conversation. If we come to the table and we say, listen, as you notice, I have kind of an intensity about me. I'm stressed out a lot.
 
I'm overwhelmed. I don't like to live this way. I'm sure I'm not as much fun to be around.
 
And part of what's going on with me is something that has a name and it's called the mental load. And it is just relentless for modern families today. The amount of pressure to be productive, the amount of responsibilities on our plates, it is never ending.
 
And I know you feel this too, but the way that we're handling it right now in our relationship is it's not really working for me. I'm feeling so bogged down that I don't feel like I can show up as my best self in our relationship and in our family. And I want to talk about how we as a team can navigate this aspect of our lives differently.
 
Like, are you willing to have that conversation? And I think that approach can help to diffuse. I mean, it might not be as satisfying if you're in a place of being really angry about this.
 
And a lot of people are. And it's totally understandable. But that will often diffuse a lot of the defensiveness that could potentially arise in this conversation and help the conversation get to a better place.
 
Laura Dugger: (15:53 - 16:20) Oh, that's good. And can you share a story, even a personal one that I've heard you mention before, related to one time when you were anticipating a date night only to get this truth bomb dropped on you? I'm asking this in part because elaborating from that quote, it ties into that correlation between mental load and exhilarating sex life for males.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (16:20 - 20:25) Yes. Now, I'm like, did I talk about this in the book? I can't remember.
 
I've talked about this before, though. Yeah. So, this is funny.
 
I shared this actually at a conference and my dad spoke at the conference. He was in the audience and had to listen to this story. And he's like, wow, you're comfortable sharing.
 
Like, I guess I am. OK, so my husband and I, this was several years ago, but we're sort of in that season where it was really hard to get out for a date night. And he something I'd wanted for a long time was him to initiate one.
 
So, he initiated the date night. I was really excited. We go to this nice restaurant.
 
He sits me down and he says something along the lines of, you know, I have to talk to you about something. And my husband's a man of few words. So, and I like to obviously, like, talk about a lot of things and talk a lot and unpack stuff and analyze it.
 
And so, when he said that, I immediately was excited. I was like, ooh, you know what he got for me? Let's go.
 
Like, let's have this conversation. And it was not what I expected. But what he said to me was, I'm not that happy with our sex life.
 
And, you know, in our relationship and I think about, you know, all of the things that I've learned and I've studied. And I know how important sex is to marriage and to my husband specifically. And I have a lower desire than he does.
 
And so, I keep track. I keep track of how often we have sex because I want to make sure that we're like hitting the target. And so, I remember like I was like really working hard overtime to sort of squash my defensiveness in this moment.
 
And I said, you know, I, I got to tell you, I feel like we're kind of having a lot of sex. And, you know, I've grown women talk. I know how much we're having.
 
And he's like, you know, it's not that it isn't good. And it's not that it's not enough. It's that it just doesn't always seem like you want me.
 
And so it was, it was like, it's kind of make light of it. But I'm like, it's an enthusiasm issue. Like he wanted more enthusiasm from me, and which is understandable.
 
And so, this, you know, conversation didn't end over dinner, kind of carried on through the rest of the night. It was not; it was not my favorite date night. You know, it wasn't the most enjoyable.
 
And we kind of unpacked it and we sort of; it was one of those conversations that we had to come back to a couple times. And I had to self-reflect on, you know, what is going on with my enthusiasm? Because I enjoy having sex with my husband, but there's truth to what he's saying.
 
And I really was honest with myself. Yeah, I'm like checking a box. You know, I'm keeping track.
 
And part of the conversation that was had was, and it's not meant to be tip for tap, but it was more like this is an insight I'm having, which is that I am not feeling as if you are showing much enthusiasm in our relationship around pursuing me. And in our home and family life around pursuing initiative taking, expressing appreciation. I'm not feeling good about our relationship outside the bedroom.
 
And so, our relationship inside the bedroom is not something that's exciting me. And we both had to step into that work. And he did in a major way.
 
And so, did I. And, you know, our sex life is not separate from our relationship as a whole. And I think it's really important that people understand that because a relationship that's suffering inside the bedroom will pour out outside the bedroom like it was for my husband and vice versa.
 
So, yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (20:25 - 23:32) Thank you so much for being open about that. I'm first of all just wondering how many people think, wow, she just articulated something true in our marriage or for husbands to unlock that connection between the emotional or relational part of the marriage and intimate part.
 
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I love even how you describe that was maybe a little bit cumbersome at first to have to both of you do your work.
 
It paid off in the end. So, can you just kind of vision cast for us what it would look like if we put some healthy systems into place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (23:33 - 26:14) Yeah, so one of the biggest takeaways of my book in terms of a new system is to have a regular check-in around the mental load. And the benefits to doing this just are like expansive. But one of the main things is that because the mental load is always changing, it's helpful to have a regular check-in so you can just kind of turn the dials, make the adjustments.
 
You know, this is a busy week for me. This is where I need a bit of support. How are you doing?
 
And check in and make those changes as necessary. It's also helpful, like some of the peripheral benefits, because sometimes people need convincing, even though this is not new advice to have a marriage check-in. It's been around a long time, but people still resist doing this.
 
So, some of the side benefits. One is that a lot of times women are the ones who are managing the relationship. We're the ones who are like, hey, I think we need a date night.
 
I think we need to talk about this. I want it. We never finish that argument.
 
You know, we're the ones kind of running the show around that stuff. And that becomes part of our mental load and also can start to feel as if we don't have a partner who cares as much about the relationship as we do. And so, when you have a scheduled time to talk about this stuff, it shares part of that responsibility.
 
So right away, you're sharing some of the emotional labor of the home and family life. The other thing is that women often have a lot of anxiety around the things that we're carrying in our minds that we need to talk to our partners. But we're not sure when is the good time.
 
So, a lot of times what happens is that we'll just kind of like eke it out through the week. Like, oh, by the way, like you got to pick Roy up from baseball here and Effie needs this. And I've been wondering about this.
 
And it becomes this sort of barrage of things are going on in our head that we need to talk about with our partner. But it's just like spread out. It's not consolidated.
 
So, a lot of times the women carry the anxiety around when this is going to happen and if our partners really got a hold of it. And our partners a lot of times find it like nagging. And then we might feel like a nag, and it doesn't really feel good to either person.
 
And so, when you can anticipate having an opportunity to address all of those things, it can help you move through your week with a lesser amount of anxiety. And also, can reduce that sort of dynamic that starts to feel either like nagging or almost like the mother-child dynamic, which also does nothing for your sex life. So, there's lots more benefits.
 
But those are a couple that are really important.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:15 - 26:27) It's so good. And what can that conversation look like? And maybe do you have any stories of couples who have done this with how they set that up or what that actually looks like in their week?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (26:27 - 28:23) Yeah. So, in my book, I give an agenda so you can literally just print it out. You can get a QR code to a PDF to print it out and you can follow along.
 
You can come up with your own, but it needs a couple of components you want to keep consistent that you want to keep the meeting relatively short. If it goes too long, it gets sometimes into, you know, you didn't do this and now you're like into a negative dynamic and you want it to really stay contained to being a bit more logistical. And then we'll talk about the other components.
 
You also want it to go well so that you'll do it again. And it becomes a natural pattern in the relationships. You want to keep it short.
 
You want to really, you know, you can keep it very simple. How did we do last week? Where did you need me?
 
And when I wasn't there, like, was there a time you needed me to do something different? So, you can both sort of anticipate that we're going to get a little bit of corrective feedback and we can start to normalize that. Looking toward the next week, what are some things I need to be aware of?
 
What are some areas where you might need some more support? So, you can basically keep it as simple as that. You always end the meeting with an expression of affection and appreciation and then schedule your next meeting.
 
That's like the bare bones sort of touch base. And I find that as you know, when I've spoken with couples who do this, I mean, number one, they're all I mean, if couples are doing it, bottom line, it's helpful. Like, oh, my gosh, we actually addressed all of these things that normally we'd just be holding on to getting frustrated about.
 
We handled the week ahead much better. So, it's always a positive experience. And but the more you do it, the more automatic it will become and the more natural it will become over time, unless you'll need an agenda or any sort of, you know, template for those meetings.
 
Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 29:11) Yes, I echo it. Such a game changer. Just we just call it planning the week.
 
But sitting down and looking at the next week, I just wonder how you would function in a family without knowing that because it takes out the questionable expectations or the silent things that we're holding on to and just makes that covert overt, which is healthier in marriage. But then I guess it's sometimes easier to see something through its opposite. So, walk us through what it would look like if couples refuse to do this and choose to neglect these conversations and don't check in with each other as it relates to the mental load and shared partnership tasks.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (29:13 - 32:06) Yeah, I think a lot of couples are here and there's different degrees of severity that it can affect your relationship. And some people are better at just kind of like letting things go and functioning with a little bit of baseline frustration or rationalizing it and others are not. So, there's a lot of variables here.
 
But what often happens is usually it's the woman who feels the overwhelm and the stress and she'll come to her partner and try to talk about that. And it usually in the worst-case scenarios doesn't go well or even in great. You know, the first time I talked about it with my husband, it didn't go well.
 
So, it happens. And so, partners start to at that point. So, let's say she gets louder.
 
So, I've tried to talk about it. He's not getting it. I'm going to get louder.
 
I'm going to get a little angry. So, she's going to start kind of making side comments. Potentially, you know, don't you see that?
 
I guess I'm going to handle this again. Guess it's all on me. Totally typical, actually, in relationships for these things to come out.
 
He starts to perceive her as critical as nagging him as tense. Oh, you're so stressed out. Why are you making such a big deal over these little things?
 
You need to lower your expectations. You make things harder than you need to. That sort of stuff starts to come out.
 
So, both of them begin to develop some almost like storylines about each other. So, the story she tells herself about him is he's selfish, unhelpful, doesn't care about her. Everything falls on her.
 
The storyline he starts to tell is it's never enough for her. She's critical. She won't get off my back.
 
She'll leave me alone. She doesn't appreciate all that I already do. And they start to sort of retreat to their own worlds.
 
And this is where the disconnection happens. No one's really, you know, taking the time to check their assumptions, to get in each other's perspectives, to think about what is it like to be you in this relationship? What's it like to be you in this relationship?
 
And work through it together. So, they start to retreat to their own worlds. The distance develops.
 
Eventually it probably affects what their sex life looks like. And some couples go on like this for years. And you just, you know, the interactions become shorter, more logistical, less relational.
 
You start to forget why you even married the person. You start to forget what you like about them. And it becomes a really just sad state of affairs for a relationship when these things are not addressed and worked through.
 
And it's not always, you know, easy to do. But it's definitely something worth the effort and the energy.
 
Laura Dugger: (32:08 - 33:07) I like that because it's not easy to do. It will require time and energy and intentionality. It's also not easy to be in that type of marriage.
 
I would argue it's even more difficult and draining. And just is not the abundant life that we're hoping to enjoy in Christ and in our relationships. So, we don't want that.
 
But I love your book gives plenty of practical tips for navigating this. And I thought it was really wise. One piece where you just talked about, we kind of get in a rut.
 
Maybe where we both have our assigned roles in marriage or tasks that we naturally take care of. But both of us forget there are seasons of extra. And when extra things come up, it's just helpful to reflect and evaluate who's picking up all of those extra invisible tasks.
 
So, do you have any wisdom to share for recognizing that or managing that tension?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (33:09 - 37:33) Yeah, I think. So back when I was explaining how it got heavy for women, why it primarily happens the way it does, that concept I explained of her doing the things out of just goodness of her heart and loving her partner and her family. I call that something called piling on of precedence.
 
And so, part of the problem when we do that is that a lot of times we take things on, like I said, with no discussion, no negotiation. And what that does is it keeps the thing that we do in the dark. It keeps it invisible.
 
So, as we move through family life with different seasons with our kids and our careers and all the things, new stuff comes up. Like we're in the season of youth sports. And so, youth sports are like, I mean, holy moly, hours sometimes to even just sign up for a sport.
 
It's wild, all that you got to navigate. And so, I think it's really important to be aware of what you are taking on with no discussion or conversation. So, I talk about in the book, I believe I talk about in the book, I do these experiments on my husband, and he doesn't know to this day, and I'm not shy about talking about it, but it's on him to listen to a podcast.
 
And then he can figure it out. But I started doing this one experiment in the attempt to try to make more of the invisible visible. And part of why this is important is because a lot of times one task with a mental load unpacks to contain multiple tasks.
 
This is why we get really overwhelmed even though our to-do list looks totally manageable. It's like, well, dinner's not just cooking dinner. It's all these other things involved.
 
So, I started doing this thing called narration and just to see what would happen. And it's not narration in the sense that it's like this petty laundry list of all that I do. But I would pick one task, and I would just narrate to my husband what I did.
 
And so, it sounds like this. I would say, oh, hey, babe, just so you know, I signed Roy up for Little League. He'd be like, oh, OK.
 
I'd be like, I filled out the forms. Start to list. I filled out the forms.
 
I found his birth certificate. That took me a while, but I found it and I uploaded it. I paid all the fees.
 
I downloaded two apps. You got to get those two. Here's what they're called.
 
But I just wanted you to know I handled it. So, a couple of things would always get accomplished. Number one, now he knows all that's involved in signing our son up for Little League.
 
He would never know. It would just be something that it's just done. He was not even thinking about it.
 
It's something I handle. It's off his plate. So now he knows all of the steps that are involved.
 
He has a greater awareness of what I'm doing. It saves me from later because sometimes we don't mind doing stuff like this. And then by the end of the week when we're at our limit and one more thing piles on and we're kind of annoyed, we might resent the thing that we didn't originally.
 
So, it's sort of saving me from that. And it gives him the opportunity to express appreciation, which every time I've done that, that's what ends up happening. Thank you so much for handling that.
 
I really appreciate you. You're so great at taking care of that stuff. And over time, I've just selected things and I've started doing that.
 
And over time, what's really interesting is that my husband has started doing it too. So, I never told him that I did this, but now he'll be like, hey, babe, just so you know, I submitted our taxes. I paid your LLC fee for you, and I did this and I did that.
 
And I get to then see all that he's doing and express appreciation. So, what it's done is it's made invisible things visible. And it has also, and this is really important, normalized expressing appreciation over the value each of us contribute in our home and family life.
 
And appreciation is one of the most desired things women want from their partners around the mental load. It's initiative taking and appreciation. And so, we have normalized this mutual exchange of sharing how we add value to our family and giving appreciation around it.
 
Laura Dugger: (37:34 - 39:25) That is so good. And as you were sharing, I was thinking too of times that my husband, Mark, I love it when he'll walk me through something he did at work or taxes actually came to mind too, where he said, this is how long it took me to do all these steps. And your first response is like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.
 
And just really just falling in love with them a little bit more and appreciating them. So, I love how that can be a positive cycle that goes both ways. And its intimacy because you're getting to see into each other's lives and that invisible brain space for both of them. Yes.
 
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You mention in your book that you recommend considering time and energy as each spouse's currency.
 
So, their currency rather than how much money they make. So, this is especially for maybe parents who have one stay-at-home mom or dad. So, consider time and energy as each spouse's currency rather than how much money we make.
 
So, there's this paragraph on page 34 that I hope everybody gets and reads just about the value of a stay-at-home parent. But is there anything you could share to elaborate on that topic?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (39:26 - 42:29) Yeah, so this part of the book was really important for me to include for a couple of reasons. One, I remember early on when my husband and I were trying to develop a shared language around the mental load and he would get prickly about certain things and where he always got stuck was around the money piece. Well, you know, typically, you know, he thinks a bit traditionally.
 
So, he'd be like, well, men are like, well, not always. That's actually not true. Look at the amount of female breadwinners.
 
It's like pretty high percentage at this point in our American society. So, I knew this was a common just point of contention in this conversation. I also interviewed men for my book.
 
I interviewed men and women. I surveyed women and that came up a lot. Don't forget that life costs money.
 
Don't forget the value that we add. And also, when I talked about, you know, this socialization for men, really around providing financial and physical safety is this really, you know, it's prevalent. A lot of men, even if they're not the breadwinner, will feel an increase in pressure and responsibility to provide financially after kids enter the picture.
 
So, it's a real thing. And so, in that sense, it was really important for me to include it. But the other is because I talk to mostly, you know, stay at home moms all the time.
 
And it's like, but he makes the money and I don't know what to say to that. And so, I really wanted to provide the permission to, you know, women or just parents who don't make the most money to ask for more participation from their partners in a way that feels good. So, the whole premise is that, you know, obviously we use money as our currency in our society, but that template doesn't work for home and family life.
 
And it doesn't take a lot of reasoning to get to that place. If you just I use the example in the book of if I worked one hour a week and made a million dollars, and my husband worked 60 hours a week and made 50,000. Does it make sense for me to say, well, I make more.
 
So, you do everything or you do. You know, I should feel entitled to do less because I make more, which is often what happens. And so, with the template doesn't really translate in the same way.
 
And so, I put forward that the currency in our home and family life should be time and energy. People have different capacities when it comes to their energy, people's time looks different. It changes often, you know, week to week.
 
And so, it can also be a really quick way to check in with one another. I'm imagining that time when one parent is like reentering family life. And that's often kind of a dicey time for a lot of families, especially with young kids.
 
And to be able to say, hey, how's your time? How's your energy? I'm at a 10 here.
 
I'm at a, you know, I'm at a two here. So, and how can you then jump in and sort of support one another based on how you're each doing in terms of time and energy?
 
Laura Dugger: (42:31 - 43:39) Yeah, because I think if we paint that picture, my background is marriage and family therapy. And I would say so many times, I don't want to be stereotypical, but this is what it was. The wife would either be working, or it would be a stay-at-home mom.
 
The husband was more of the provider. But consistently, they would say he comes home from work and just lays on the couch or on a Sunday. He just sits around and relaxes.
 
And yet maybe he's working 40, maybe he's even working 60 hours a week. But that still leaves over 100 hours in the week beyond work. And that would be the constant complaint.
 
You could see that root bitterness. So how would you encourage both of them? I would say, especially in this situation, how would you encourage the husbands?
 
That's really not fulfilling your responsibility. And one more thing, just thinking of that scripture in Corinthians. I believe it's in the love chapter, which would be 1 Corinthians 13.
 
And it talks about when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (43:39 - 43:40) Yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:41 - 43:43) I threw a lot at you. How would you like to respond?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (43:45 - 46:00) I think it's almost like that type of behavior feels very, is it like leave it to beaver? Almost of like the guy comes home and sits and reads the paper type of thing. And we're just not really living in that world as much anymore.
 
And even if we are, there's plenty of studies that look at the amount of hours a stay-at-home mom works. And it's around an average of about 97 hours a week, which is two and a half full time jobs. And so, I mean, this is why I wanted to have this section of my book is because the person who works outside the home often feels entitled to do less inside the home.
 
And so, I think part of it is undoing this belief system that you have checked all the boxes because you went to work. And then everything else is sort of like sugar, like, you know, like gravy on top. And that's actually not true.
 
But I think one of the questions men really need to wrestle with is what kind of husband and father do you want to be? You know, do you want, you know, I would be willing to bet that in this type of relationship situation, the woman is ragged. And definitely starting to develop roots of bitterness and frustration and hurts.
 
And so how do you want her to feel in the relationship? How do you want to really step in and lead your family? I think these are, you know, and these are questions that if you're sitting down with your partner, I think are totally acceptable to ask.
 
How do you want me to feel in our relationship? What do you want when I see you on the couch at the end of the day? And I've been working too all day, whether it's with the kids, whether it's outside the home.
 
And I see you on the couch and you're watching a game. What conclusion do you want me to draw about how you feel about my value and my contribution to this family and what we're doing? And I'm not saying this in a way of snarkiness, saying it genuine.
 
It's genuine conversation. I think that these partners have to take a moment and reflect on their behavior and how they're showing up in their family life.
 
Laura Dugger: (46:02 - 46:31) I like that even how you model the tone, that you're approaching it truly with a sense of curiosity with the goal being a better, healthier relationship. And it makes me think, OK, again, solutions, which I think ties in. You had briefly mentioned what women are wanting related to the mental load.
 
I'd love to cover that a little bit more in depth and also what men are wanting and wish that women knew as it relates to the mental load.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (46:32 - 51:06) Yeah, so there's sort of two parts of this for
women. So, I in the chapter, there's four areas in the meat of the book that I talk about that couples need to learn to share. So, there's a chapter on sharing perspective.
 
And in those chapters, I talk about what do women want in their relationship and what do men want in their relationship with women, though? I also surveyed women and asked them specifically, what do you want from your partners around the mental load? And what they wanted was, number one, more initiative taking and number two, more appreciation, which appreciation is an easy one to give.
 
It's really hard for a lot of people to give, but it costs you almost nothing. It almost costs you no time. So, it's a really easy one.
 
And it was it was actually like a pretty close percentage. And so, I'll give just a little bit of information around initiative taking, because that's vague. I find that when we're asking for change from partners, it's helpful to be as specific as possible, because a lot of times we're sort of vague with our requests and then nothing changes.
 
So, initiative taking requires knowing plus action. So, you can't step into initiative or leadership or like however you want to label this. If you don't know people's preferences, if you don't know where things are kept in the house, if you don't know what's on the schedule.
 
And so, if there are any husbands listening, I would encourage you to increase your knowing around your home and family life. And part of that might be like increasing your awareness. You might get home from work and maybe you need a minute.
 
But then are you tuning out the rest of the night, just kind of numbly going through the motions or are you like paying attention and absorbing information? And so, I spoke to couples before and when I speak to the men, I always challenge them to employ something called the Buffett formula, which comes from Warren Buffett around the accumulation of information and knowledge. And he basically says, go to bed every night knowing more than when you woke up that morning.
So, as a husband and a father, get to know three new things a day. Get to know one new thing about your significant other, one new thing about each of your kids if you have them, and one new thing about how your home and family life functions. That will accumulate quickly and will help you step into initiative taking with competence and competence, which is a lot of times the reasons they'll give for not stepping into it.
I don't know how to do it. So, gather that information. You said, what do men want in their relationships?
So then in the chapters on perspective, I use the acronym PAR, and I use the same acronym for both men and women, but it stands for different things. And so, I talk about what are the three things men want most in their relationships. And the first is peace.
And I think we should just talk about this more in general when we talk about relationships, because I think a lot of men will really do some hurtful things in the pursuit of peace. And it always backfires, you know, like a defensive. I don't want to have an argument.
It's too emotional. I want to deal with this right now. So, you know, they might shove it away.
 
But a lot of men really are after they just want peace. They want you to be happy, easy breezy. But a lot of times in order to get to a peaceful place, you might have to go through a little bit of difficult conversations to get there.
 
The second thing is affection. And that is, you know, words, how we speak to each other all the way through our sexual relationship. Not for every man, but for a lot of men, sex is how they feel loved and desired in their relationship.
 
And so, it plays a very important role. And then the last is respect. And everybody wants to be respected.
 
This is not necessarily just a man thing, but men in particular have a high need for respect. And so, when I was talking about how relationships kind of like can start to degrade when the mental load isn't handled well, part of what happens is that she will start to become more disrespectful because she doesn't respect him. And he will feel disrespected because he is being disrespected.
 
But there's a whole history as to why you got to this place. And so, yeah, it's very important to understand these things when we're entering into these conversations that can sometimes be a little bit tricky.
 
Laura Dugger: (51:08 - 51:24) You've given us so many jumping off points to proactively enhance our marriages and spoken to both sides, the men, the women. Is there anything else you want to make sure we don't miss? Is our time starting to near a close?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (51:25 - 53:28) Oh, my goodness. I feel like we covered quite a bit. I mean, I would just say something that was really on my heart when I wrote my book, A Better Share, is that in the world of social media, which is a big part of our lives, unfortunately, and fortunately in some ways.
 
But, you know, in the land of this content area on social media, it can be a pretty hostile ground, especially for men. So, it's a charged topic. It's wild.
 
So yesterday I shared a post based on my interviews with men where I just shared some of their perspectives. And if you read the comments section, it's wild how people are angry about a perspective like it's not allowed. And something that was on my heart was I want to write a book that welcomes men to the table, because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, if we're being truly honest, we want men to change a bit.
 
We want them to, like, step into this conversation in this work, to be more emotionally attuned, to express appreciation for the value we add to our family, to participate more as a leader in our home. So, we're wanting all these changes from them. But then we're like most people are coming at it from this very angry perspective.
 
And so, a really important part of my of my writing and putting the book together was I want to write a book men enjoy reading where they feel seen. They also feel challenged and they feel like they are equipped with these aha moments where they're like, oh, that's what's going on. And the feedback, if you read reviews on Amazon, it's like been really powerful to look at the response from men and how it's been received.
 
And so that's probably one of my something I'm most proud of with this with this work.
 
Laura Dugger: (53:29 - 53:52) Yes, I would say well done with that. And this is a great episode to share with our husband. That's the wife who is initially listening and then maybe to come back together and see how can I serve you better?
 
How can I love you better for both ways? But Dr. Morgan, you've also written another book. Do you want to share a little bit about that and where we can go to learn more from you after this chat?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (53:53 - 55:39) Sure. So, my first book was called Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself. And it's a book I wrote for moms.
 
And at the end of the day, it's really a book about our relationship with ourselves. And I just use examples in every chapter. I talk about how I apply the concept to our relationship with our kids.
 
And then I apply it back to your relationship with yourself. But, you know, women, we're so good at backburnering ourselves and getting to a place, though, of kind of living on the backburner. And we do it, you know, in this deep, wonderful place.
 
I think comes from a wonderful place to really serve our family and serve our kids. And if there's ever a cause to backburner yourself for, it is our kids. But at the same time, we do this self-sacrifice for the people we love the most.
 
And then we end up becoming so burnt out, so overwhelmed, that we end up resenting the people we love the most. And so, it ends up backfiring. And so, this is a book about not putting your oxygen mask on first.
 
That always bugs me. But it's about how us as moms can learn to take our turn, can learn to manage our relationship with ourself in a way that's actually doable in the little blips of time that we get to ourselves. So that we don't wake up after 18 years of raising kids or however, probably is like 22 now or something, but of all these years.
 
And we're like, I don't even know who I am anymore. You know, or those moms that their kids leave and start a family of their own. And then we're sort of like resentful that they abandoned us because we gave them everything.
 
And so, it's really about how do you stay connected to yourself in this busyness of life and raising kids.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:40 - 55:48) And we'll definitely add a link to that in the show notes for today's episode. Are there any other links or places that you would like to direct us to?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (55:48 - 56:50) Yeah, I mean, my Instagram is a place you can find me. It's just Dr. Morgan Cutlip. And also, I've been working on releasing and these two are out now.
 
I'll just mention one of them. I like to do audio courses. I feel like it's much easier to just listen and not sit down and watch a video.
 
But I just released a course called The Brief. And it's the No BS Guide to the Mental Load for Men. And it's a course for men.
 
And it's 90 minutes and it's broken up into 11 episodes. And it explains the mental load. It explains what it is, what women want, why it's important.
 
And it really breaks everything down in a way that doesn't induce shame or defensiveness. And a major complaint of women is not only do I carry the mental load, but now I carry the responsibility of educating my partner around it. And so, I figured if there's a way for me to take that burden in any way, obviously the partner has to be willing to listen.
 
Then I feel like I'm helping. So that's also available. All my stuff is very affordable.
 
So, yeah, it's called The Brief.
 
Laura Dugger: (56:50 - 57:07) The Brief, wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (57:09 - 57:45) These are the, I can talk about just about anything. But this question, that's like the one thing I'm terrible at. Collect the good.
 
I think in all of our relationships, in all of our relatively safe relationships, the more we collect the good rather than accumulate complaints and the bad, the better our relationships will be, the more we can appreciate the blessings that people add to our lives and how they enrich our lives. So, if you're in a committed relationship, see how you can collect up and gather up all the good.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:46 - 58:07) Love that, Dr. Morgan. And throughout this hour, I've just enjoyed how vulnerable and disciplined and extremely talented you are. But I especially notice and appreciate your desire to help.
 
So, thank you for wrapping all of that up into one chat. And thank you for being my guest.
 
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (58:08 - 58:09) Thank you for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 1:01:52) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships: Special Patreon Release with Cherilyn Orr

Special Patreon Release: Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships with Cherilyn Orr
 
"bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." Ephesians 6:4b (KJV)
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Cherilyn Orr is passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She has worked with families and educators in North America, Europe, and Africa to help them build safe schools, homes, and communities where children can flourish. The Stoplight Approach that she developed was born out of her experiences as an educator, a foster mom, and a mom to seven through birth and adoption, and it combines biblical truths with the latest brain science. Connect with her on her Website, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.
 
Topics and Questions We Cover:
What are a few helpful tips for us to understand brain science 101?
How can we repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our Green zone?
Within the stoplight approach, can you provide some examples of how we can calm a red-rooted misbehavior?
 
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.
 
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com/EastPeoria.
 
If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.
 
And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, TheSavvySauce.com.
 
Cherilyn Orr is my guest today. She is kind and humble and a woman who's passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She's going to share how she combines biblical truths with the latest brain science to build healthy relationships in the family.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Cherilyn.
 
Cherilyn Orr: (2:07 - 2:08)
Thank you. I'm really happy to join you today.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:10)
And will you start by just giving us a snapshot of your life right now?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (2:08 - 3:11)
Yes, I am actually talking to you from Athens, Greece. That is where our family resides right now. And we've been here for the last few years. And before that, we lived in Uganda and Africa.
 
I have seven children and my oldest is now a mom herself. And she just gave birth a couple months ago to a preemie little baby. And I am so excited because now I have entered the world of grandparenthood.
 
But I'm also in the throes of life with a 12-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And I have a university student living at home. My next son is 21, and he's also living at home, going to university. So those are my four at home.
 
I have one in Canada, working there. And I have two that are married. One that lives in Africa with his wife, and they're working there. And another one with my grandbaby that's living here in Greece, working with the church here.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:12 - 3:19)
That is quite a full family and a global family. What has taken you to the different parts of the world?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (3:20 - 3:44)
Well, we are a missional family. But we believe that everybody's called to be a missional and to serve God. And God happens to have taken us to different places.
 
I've been working with The Stoplight Approach now for a few years now. My husband does leadership training as well. So that's kind of what's taken us around the world. Now that we're in Greece, I'm also involved with refugees as well here.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:45 - 4:06)
Well, we are fortunate to live in a time with access to scientific knowledge about the brain. And it all points back to our brilliant Creator, God. But you make this brain science so simple to comprehend. So, can you just share a few helpful tips for us so that we can understand kind of brain science 101?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (4:08 - 6:40)
Yes, I think for me, it's been a journey. But it came when after we adopted a child and she was having an all-out meltdown. And it would have taken me an hour or so to regroup her.
 
And it was just amazing. I was with a friend and she is a behavioral consultant. And she said, “Let me.” And this was after we had had her for at least a couple of years at this point. And she just said, “Let me.”
 
And she got down on the ground where my child was screaming hysterically. And she was able to get her back sitting on her seat, doing what she was supposed to in less than, I don't know, 10 minutes.
 
And I was shocked because here I am an educator. I have a master's degree. I'm a special needs teacher. I have been working for years with children in different settings around the world. And here I was looking at her doing something that I just didn't know how to do.
 
It was a huge paradigm shift for me when she said afterwards, I said, “What did you do?”
 
And she said, “It's by understanding the brain. The brain is like three parts. It's like a stoplight.”
 
So, she said, if you can think of it that way, as there's that bottom part of your brain, which is that fight, flight, freeze. When you are just only using 50% of your capacity and you just can't hear anybody's perspective.
 
And then there's that middle part of your brain, which is the limbic system. And she said, you know, that's when you're using 75% or so of your brain capacity. And that's when you're stressed, you're worried, you're anxious, and you're just not at your best.
 
And then there's your top part of your brain, which is your neocortex, which you are just ready to learn. And you can problem solve and you can think and you are the best version of yourself at that moment.
 
And she talked to me a little bit about that. And she's just said, this is what's happening in your brain. For me, that was a wow, you know, because it's like understanding the brain is so opposite than anything that I had ever done. And as an educator, I've been trained to control children. I've taken courses on behavior management. And this was just like changing the equation. When you understand the brain, then it changes how you can relate to the child in your care.
 
Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:05)
And also, I will just sprinkle in a few little things that I found fascinating in your book. One of your conclusions was that relationships are the biggest factor in brain development and for it to develop in a healthy way. So, is that what you found true throughout the years of our life, that relationships are vital?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (7:05 - 8:02)
It's for everybody. And it needs to start with that relationship. And that relationship has what I would say three pillars, which is safety, which is your red brain. In order to come out of that fight, flight or freeze, you have to feel safe.
 
And in order to come out of yellow brain, which is your limbic system, you need to feel connected and you need to feel respected. And respect means to be seen, heard and valued. And when you're in that yellow brain state, you don't feel connected. You feel disconnected.
 
So, in order to get people to green brain, you need to make them feel seen, heard and valued. So, if we want healthy relationships and we want green home, then we need to be able to help our children get to that green brain state. But it starts by making them feel safe and making them feel connected. So, relationship is foundational.
 
Laura Dugger: (8:02 - 8:24)
And you've combined your knowledge of the Bible and all of this brain science to write a book entitled Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children. So, will you elaborate now on that Stoplight Approach that you teach and write about?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (8:27 - 11:10)
Well, yes, I am so excited because we just looked at, you know, those three elements, safety, respect and being connected, and then we could teach it. And when we look at the Bible and we say, “How does God view me and how does He work with me?”
 
I go back to the fact is when God sees me in my mess ups and He sees my anger or my gossip or my addictions or whatever I'm struggling with. He looks at me and He says, “Come to me. I am your safety. I am your refuge.”
 
He wants us to bring Him our messes. He says, “Come to me just as you are, not as you want to be, not as you should be and not as you could be.” And in that context, He says, “I delight in you. I know you. I know every hair on your head. I know you. I know your name and I love you. You are in the palm of my hand and I delight in you.”
 
And Zephaniah talks about and He sings over us, not because we've done something, not because we're worthy, because He knows that unless we feel safe and unless we are in that connection and can relationship with them, then He cannot help us to train us and to walk with us and guide us through the process of growing and becoming that healthy person that He desires for us to be.
 
So, I was so excited when I looked at who God is and how it matches with what brain science is teaching us about red, yellow, green and how we can't teach anybody. It takes 12 to 15 times to teach a child a new skill when they are in green. That same child, that same skill when he's there in red will take 350 to 400 times because that is not the part of the brain where you can do problem solving or critical thinking or even to have empathy for anybody else. That part of the brain can only do rote learning. So, it will take you so long to teach a child when they're in that part of the brain.
 
And I love it because that obedience is an outflowing of a relationship with us, with God. And when we look at our child, that's what we want is we don't want them to obey us because they fear us, but we want them to obey us because they are connected to us. Just like God wants us to obey Him in that relationship, not because it's the rule and that's what we need to do.
 
So, I'm so excited to see how that brain science is catching up to who God is.
 
Laura Dugger: (11:11 - 12:07)
Oh, my goodness. That is amazing to also just think of the Lord as obviously our parent and we want to model after Him. Some of this is reminding me there was a previous episode with Dr. Josh and Christy Straub where they were looking at research findings about parenting. And one of them was that it was so important for us to be self-regulated when we're responding to our children. And there's a connection.
 
So, in your book, I'm just going to read this one quote from page 56. You wrote, “One of the most shocking things I realized as I learned about brain science was that it is impossible to make a child feel loved when the parent is in yellow or red. They feel our stress. They feel our disapproval.” And so, would you like to elaborate on that as well?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (12:09 - 13:41)
Well, we have this thing that we talk a lot about in The Stoplight Approach. We talk about the stoplight starts with me. You cannot give what you don't have.
 
So many parents will say, “I love my child,” but the child does not feel loved. And when I was doing seminars and training throughout North America, you know, often people say, “We are a yellow society.” And that broke my heart.
 
We are a yellow society. We're running our kids at five in the morning to this program, to hockey or this or programs late at night. And we're just running.
 
And I feel like if we are yellow and we are stressed, then there is automatically a disconnect. There's almost like a gate that says, do not enter. You can't go through it unless you are in green.
 
You're in red, then your whole house turns to red. Mama's in red, everybody's in red. Or if you're in yellow, you'll start to see the children in your care are in yellow.
 
And I find that in my house. When I start to see my house going to that yellow space, I start to have to do like, what color am I in? If I'm in yellow, then they're going to be in yellow. And you start to see them fighting amongst themselves or bickering or just not cooperating. And there's that tension that comes because they're picking up my yellowness and my stress.
 
Laura Dugger: (13:42 - 14:04)
And so, let's go a little bit further with that scenario. If parents are in a very stressful season and there are quite a few to-do's that have to get done on top of the daily things. If that parent identifies they are in the yellow, maybe in the red, how can they get back to green even in the midst of a crazy time of life?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (14:06 - 16:26)
Well, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be a perfect parent. But what science is showing us and it's what God wants from us is that sense of repair. We need to look at how do we repair because that's what our child needs because life is not perfect and we are not perfect. And I am certainly far from being a perfect parent. But how do I repair the damage and how do I connect?
 
So, we call it fix it, treasure it and change it. So, fix it is: Yes, I am sorry. Mommy yelled at you. I am so sorry I did that. I was in yellow and I was really stressed. Would you forgive me? I love you and you did not deserve me to yell at you. I care about you and I did not handle that appropriately.
 
And I want you to help me. This is what I've said to my children. I want you to help me when I'm going to red or I'm going to yellow. Just remind me and say, “Mom, you're going to yellow.” And then that can help me to make some changes right then and create that gap so that I'm not reacting. Or maybe I could take a walk or maybe I could get myself back to green.
 
When I react in that yellow or red brain state, it's not safe for you. It's not safe for others. So, let's work together on this.
 
And then we can talk about maybe what was happening in our house at that time as well. And maybe how they can help things to go smoother in our house. So that they could take some responsibility in helping because Mommy didn't feel seen, heard and valued. You know, I had asked you five times to do that. So how do we work together to make this house run smoother?
 
So being red and yellow are not bad things. It's not like you are horrible because you went to red and yellow. It's warning. It's like an alarm going off to say, be careful, be careful.
 
It's an opportunity to reflect and say, what's not working here? What's the deeper issue here? Yes, maybe I was overtired and maybe I did this. But what else is going on? And I may need to look back on things that maybe are triggering me that are deeper. And maybe things that relate back to my own childhood or how I was raised.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:26 - 16:52)
That makes a lot of sense, that reflection. Because I studied psychology and marriage and family therapy. And we were always taught, name it to tame it. And sometimes that really does help when we can pinpoint and identify and name. What is that trigger? It helps to tame it. And I think the biblical concept is when you share it with somebody else, when you bring it into the light, it does lose a lot of its power.
 
Cherilyn Orr: (16:53 - 17:46)
Definitely. Because if I can say I'm in red, it helps me know what I need to do to get myself back to green. So, if I can start to recognize when my body is starting to get tense, when I'm starting to get stressed, I can say, oh, this is my warning. I need to do this. I need to have a shower. I need to go for a walk. I need to regroup myself so that I'm not reacting to my children in my red brain state. I can get myself back to green first. So, I can create that gap.
 
So, naming it, that's what I think the success of Stoplight is. It's the common language that says how do we help each other when we are moving to yellow and we are moving to red so that everybody in the family knows that red is not bad, but how do we help that person in their red to get back to green?
 
Laura Dugger: (17:48 - 17:52)
What is the Stoplight Approach to discipline and boundaries?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (17:54 - 22:32)
Well, sometimes people think, oh, is The Stoplight Approach permissive? You know, we just let kids do what they want and let them be in green. If anybody has multiple children, you know that if one child is being self-centered and they're in their own world, it's going to create chaos for the rest of the family.
 
And so, Stoplight is not about permissiveness. And I think we need to be looking at the word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to train. If you can kind of get that word discipline, because so often we've mixed that word discipline with punishment. So, it's all about punishing a child, whereas actually discipline is not about punishing. It's about training a child.
 
And everybody, every child needs boundaries. Boundaries help to keep us safe. They help to keep our family safe. It helps to keep that relationships in a healthy way.
 
So, we often use that word to look at how do we as parents, we've always got boundaries. Don't run in the road. We want to keep you safe. Don't touch the hot stove because you'll burn yourself. So, we look for ways to keep our child safe, and we look for ways to help them be safe in relationships. Yes, you want that ball, but you don't hit the other child to get the ball. So, what could we do differently?
 
Proverbs 13:24 is a common phrase that I grew up hearing. It was kind of like the parenting theology of my generation. “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but who loves him diligently disciplines him.”
 
So that was a verse that I heard a lot in my life. But then as I was studying and looking at brain science and really studying about who is God. And I had to look at what is my image of God? Is He this harsh judge up there that maybe subconsciously I believed? Or is He that loving father like the prodigal son that's waiting for his son? Not to punish him, but to love him and to connect with him. And it says in the New Testament, Jesus says, if you've seen him, you've seen the Father. So, He's a good, good father.
 
So, then I started to dissect this. What is the rod used for? And it talks about the rod being a comfort and a rod being a sense of protection. And we often hear it used in relationships to sheep. You know, if we're going to keep sheep safe, then we need the rod. That shepherd used a rod to protect his sheep from wild animals. So, as we look at that word rod, it's a protection tool.
 
So, we take apart that and then hates his son. I think, wow, a parent that does not protect their child or teaches their child to be aware of the dangers in this world. So, as a young child, you're protecting them and teaching them to make safe choices. And then as they get older, you still have to continually, continually teach them that. And so, when I look at that word rod and hates his son, that would be a neglectful. In my words, a parent who is neglectful to teach.
 
The second verse talks about diligently. And that reminds me in Deuteronomy, when we're told to teach our children all through the day, when we're walking, when we're sitting, when we're at mealtimes. We should be using our days to continually teach our children and to discipline them, which would be to train them in the way that they should go.
 
And I look at God as our creator of our brain. And He loves us so very, very much. And He wants the very best for us. And we know that children and human beings do better when they feel better. So how do we connect with our child? How do we protect our children? And how do we take that opportunity to be present with our child?
 
Those are hard things for a lot of parents these days to be present, to be engaged with them and to look for ways to continually be working with them and protecting them and keeping them safe.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:33 - 22:58)
Wow. And I just want to share one of my favorite takeaways from page 143, where you write “Green rooted misbehavior needs coaching. Yellow roots need connection. And red roots need calming.” So, can you provide some examples with that last one of how we can calm a red rooted misbehavior?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (23:00 - 27:00)
Yes, I certainly can. So, all three of these are so important because we often miss it. I'm going to say that red root, it needs us to speak the red language, speak red brain. And to speak red brain means to stop talking about the problem.
 
That child does not have capacity to hear you when they are in a red brain state. They need me to be calm. They need me to be in green. And they need me to stop talking. And maybe to only use words that feel safe. You're safe. I'm here. You're safe. I'm here. There's no point in talking to anybody in red brain because they have no capacity to hear.
 
And then also to be able to go for a walk with your child. Repetitive patterning activities are really helpful. Like for my children, each of my children have, they have a green plan. It's like, what do I do when I'm starting to go to red?
 
So maybe for one of my children, we have a hammock outside. So, she goes there. These are planned ahead of time when they are in green. These are discussed ahead of time. So, another child will, you know, might listen to music, have a shower, go for a walk. Every single one of us, whether it be an adult or child, should look at what do I need to do to get back to green.
 
As a parent, when we're looking at green rooted misbehaviors, red rooted misbehaviors and yellow roots misbehaviors, you could have the same issue like two kids fighting. You come around the corner and there you see your two siblings fighting. As a parent, often we go to red immediately. Our brain state goes because it feels threatening. It feels fearful to us. And then we react.
 
So, I have to take a deep breath myself and I have to say, OK, what brain state is this child in? And sometimes we don't know. So, we can call the children and say, what's going on? Just stopping and asking the question will give us the opportunity to hear what brain state our child is in.
 
If they happily look it up and say, we were playing Pirates of the Caribbean or something that they had seen on a TV show, then you can say, OK, well, what you're doing is unsafe and somebody is going to get hurt. But they're just acting.
 
And then if it's a yellow brain state, it's like he pushed me, he touched me. And they're just kind of bickering at each other. They're not really all out fighting. But, you know, you can look at them and say, let's stop and let's make each other feel seen, heard and valued. So, you can work with that child because that child at that point is in yellow brain. And then we can speak yellow brain, which is people don't feel that they're being heard. They don't feel respected. And that's when you can talk about what other things that they could do instead.
 
And then, of course, we have red brain when these children are all out to hurt each other. They are mad. So that's when we can go into that red brain and say, OK, both of you need to get back to green. We're not going to talk about this right now. I want you to use your green plan and get yourselves back to green. And then we will talk.
 
Some children can do that independently and some children need you to do it with them. And sometimes it might be that you just take those two children out and say, we're going to run around the block together.” And it's how do you connect with your child at that particular time and keep them safe and get them moving and get their brain state back up to green before you talk with them.
 
Laura Dugger: (27:01 - 32:37)
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Now, back to the show. And then on our side, I love how you also bring in the repair piece. So how can we practically repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our green zone as the parent?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (32:38 - 34:39)
Yes, I feel like that is, it's really hard to ask your child to do anything that you're not doing because they're not going to actually be able to take that to heart. And if you say to a child, “I want you to say sorry to your sibling,” they're just going to look and go, “Sorry,” and have no meaning whatsoever.
 
And that's why we've done a lot of apology notes in my home over the years, because it's an opportunity to really sit down and reflect and talk. And we talk about how the card needs to be beautiful because we need to treasure that person. And so, they need to apologize for what they did. They need to talk about why on earth are they even writing this apology note? Why is that person of value? Because they're our sister or they're our brother or they're our friend or they're the teacher or the coach. And they are a part of our community and our family. So, we need to write that apology note to value that person.
 
And then we talk about what are we going to do next time. So those three points go into every single apology note my kids write: fix it, treasure it, change it. But you cannot do that when the child is in red. You cannot do it when they're in yellow. You need to have them back to green and then we can talk through it. And then they can go and deliver that to that person and then talk about how they can reconcile the situation. But I find that that's a really good reflective piece that I've used over the years.
 
But as a parent, it's hard to say sorry to your kid. It's easier to jump in and just treasure the child. You know, let's go to the park. Let's do this and just value the child. But then you end up having an insecure relationship because you've never acknowledged the problem. Therefore, you cannot change it. So therefore, you cannot have a healthy reconciliation.
 
Laura Dugger: (34:40 - 34:57)
And how have you seen this Stoplight Approach work across the world? So many different settings with different countries and cultures or families who foster and adapt or even ones raising children with special needs?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (34:59 - 36:53)
Well, the great thing about science is it doesn't change based on where you are in the world and what culture you're in. Every human has a brain, and all human brains function the same way. And all human brains need safety, connection and coaching.
 
So that's been the exciting part about understanding brain science. So, you know, even when I work in Africa, I'll say to people when I get malaria, do they give me a different medication because I'm from Canada or do they give me the same as you? And everybody says, of course, malaria is malaria. You know, it's because of science.
 
And I love that whole element of science that our brains are made the same. It doesn't matter what culture you're in and it doesn't matter what special needs you have. If I see a child and they're under the table and they're holding their ears, I might not know that child at all. But I know that that child is in red brain. I don't have to know if they're special needs. I don't have to know anything else. I can immediately diagnose what brain state that child is in. And then I can work at creating safety for that child. And connecting with that child. And then we can find out how do we move that child and work with that child, whatever their needs are.
 
And I have four adopted children, and I have fostered many children. In the process of doing that, I have recognized that every child needs to feel safe, connected, and then we can train them. So, it's like changing the equation for how we work with the children. But it works for all people. So, I don't have to have a different philosophy of parenting for my adopted child or my foster child or my biological children. Does that make sense?
 
Laura Dugger: (36:53 - 37:03)
Yes, absolutely. And to personalize it, how has The Stoplight Approach then worked in your life and with you and your husband raising your own children?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (37:05 - 41:32)
I just love the fact that it's a common language. So, I can give you an example of one day there was company coming and I was really stressed. And it seemed like everywhere I looked; every room was a disaster. You know, I had teenagers who were cooking and making themselves food and it was a mess. I had children that had used the bathroom and made a mess all through the bathroom. And then I had toys everywhere and sheets being made into forts. And I had company showing up.
 
And so, I was going into to Red Brain and I started going, “Who did this? What did you do? Who left this here? Who made this mess?” And one of my kids went and says, “Dad, mom's going to Red.” And that wasn't a judgment. That was like, this is a fact. We need your help here.
 
And so, dad comes along and he says, he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, “You're going to Red.” He says, “Why don't you go for a walk? I'll do zone cleanup with the kids because I'm in green. And you can come back in 20 minutes and then you can do all the final tidy up before the kids come. And then that we could greet the company and green.”
 
So, it just becomes that common language of understanding. And he knew my need at that time. I was feeling unsafe because the house was a disaster. And my brain just was it's a brain issue, right? It's not a behavior issue. But then it was like, how do we support mom in this moment? And then I came back 20 minutes later and did the final little cleanups, and we were able to greet the company in green.
 
So, there's an example of using the common language as a way to help others in our family know what brain state you're in to support one another. And to be able to identify and connect.
 
I mean, I could give you tons of examples, even from the smallest child. They start to understand. “He made me go to red” or “I'm in red now.” So, then it's like, OK, so what do we need to do? How do we do this?
 
I mean, there's been days when all of a sudden I hear everybody kind of not doing too great. And I get them all to sit at the table. And I said, “So what color is our home right now?” And somebody say red. Somebody else says yellow. Then you're saying, “OK, but what kind of home do we want to have?” And they'll say green. So, what do we need to do to get it to green?
 
So, I think there's there's many, many different ways. But I think it's that common language that even the small child that's two and three can start to learn when they're in red or we can start to use it to teach empathy. When you did that to your sibling, what color did we make him? He didn't feel seen, heard and valued.
 
Just a few weeks ago, my daughter. Here's here's a recent example. We've had a refugee staying with us for a couple of years, a little girl, and she was about three. All of a sudden there was this blood curdling screaming, you know, just screaming. And I come around the corner going, “What's going on?” And my 12-year-old, very responsible, is holding scissors. She's running with scissors.
 
And so, my 12-year-old here was a chance to talk. And I said, “OK, so when you took her scissors away, she did not feel seen, heard and valued. Because when you took them away from her, you didn't actually speak to her. So, you need to get down on your knees, and you need to look at her and say, what did you want the scissors for? And we need to teach her. Where do we have scissors? How do we use them?”
 
So, she was being responsible to keep her safe. But she didn't make her feel seen, heard and valued and listen to her and say, “Oh, you want to cut your hair. Oh, only mommy cuts hair. You can't cut your hair, but we could use our scissors at the table.” So, using red, yellow and green helps to give incredible opportunities to teach empathy and to look at themselves, self-awareness and how to grow and take responsibility.
 
Laura Dugger: (41:34 - 42:06)
And I love how you talk about this common language in such a proactive way with our children, with our families. So that when we are in red, we've got a path and a plan to get back to green. And we've got some tips for repair.
 
So, when we go to the proactive side and kind of tie this back into the beginning, when we talked about relationships are the foundation for brain health and development. What are some ways to securely attach with our children during different ages and stages?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (42:08 - 45:54)
I think it comes back to being intentional. I often think of it as the 5-10-5 rule. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the evening and five minutes before they go to bed at night. It's that opportunity to stop what you're doing and to just focus in intentionally connecting with my child.
 
It's not easy. It's not easy. But it's how do I connect first thing in the morning when that child has been disconnected from me all night long? How do I connect with them first thing in the morning before they start their day? And then how do I connect with them like after school, before dinner? And how do I hear about what they want to tell me about their day? What part was red? What part was yellow? What kind of day they had?
 
One of my kids goes, “It was lime green.” And I'm like, “Okay, so how did that happen?”
 
“Well, I was in green and then I lost my backpack. So, I went to yellow, but then the teacher helped me find it. So, then I went back to green.” So that's how she described her day.
 
And then you have that connecting before they go to bed at night. That's just like, I see you, I know you, I hear you.
 
And so that can look differently according to different ages and stages of life. But I think holding that 5-10-5 is a good principle. And there are so many of my children that that 5-10-5 happens in hours and hours. Because they are children that demand my attention. And they are there and they are wanting that continual attention. So, some kids it happens more naturally too.
 
And then there are some children, and especially as they start getting older, it's a lot more challenging to be able to find that 5-10-5. And that doesn't mean in the busyness of the dinner table or in chore times. But it's about trying to connect with them and say, “I hear you. Tell me about your life. And where are you at?” Or just really just having fun with them. And just connecting to them and laughing with them and playing a game with them as well. Or going for a walk. We do a lot of that.
 
And with teenagers, and especially boys, it was all about the food. I would show up in their room with a milkshake or something else. Or call them out of their rooms to connect with them at different times. So, you have to be creative. It's not about my schedule sometimes. It's about looking at when they are open as well. Especially as you start getting into teenagers.
 
And I found that one of my teenagers, she'd always like to come and sit on my bed. Just at 11 o'clock at night. Just as I feel like I'm down for the night. And you know that baby is going to start waking up at 6 or 7. And you're just dying to go to sleep. But you know that this is important. She's ready to talk. And so, I need to be available.
 
Which isn't easy. But also, I think, how do we do that with seven children? Because that's a lot of kids. But my husband and I, we look at dividing and conquering. And then we look at special times. Like daddy time. Or going out with mom. Where I'll take one child to do a chore. Or go shopping. And I think that is really important to think about. How am I intentionally connecting with my child? So, I took a child to Canada recently. And I often will take a different child on different trips that I'm going on.
 
Laura Dugger: (45:55 - 46:15)
Okay, so five minutes right in the morning. Greeting each other. Five minutes before bed. And finding ten minutes of intentional time to connect. Is that one-on-one throughout the day?
 
Cherilyn Orr:
Yes.
 
Laura Dugger:
You've given us so many helpful tips to apply. Is there any other encouragement that you want to make sure that we don't miss out on?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (46:16 - 47:52)
I think when you hear a lot of these stories. First of all, I want you to know that I am not perfect. As a mom, it's a journey. And I don't want you to go away feeling like, I could never do all this. It's a journey one baby step at a time. And I encourage you to get the book. Listen to podcasts. And be able to join that journey. But don't be hard on yourself. And don't feel that sense of guilt and shame. That says, oh my, I messed up. That's okay.
 
Being able to recognize you messed up is a good thing. And also recognize that you think, oh man, I messed up on my kids. I did all the wrong things. I want to tell you that we all do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. And that's really, really important to know. It's like, this is a journey. And you are doing the best.
 
I learned all about behavior management. How do I control my child's behavior? And that was how I parented when I started this journey. And it has been a journey to shift into brain science. And to learn as much as I can about the brain science. And how it impacts my child. And to grow and be the parent that God wants me to be. But don't be hard on yourself in that way. That would be my biggest thing is. And to take one baby step. To decide one baby step that you take.
 
Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 47:57)
And where can people find and learn more from you online?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (47:58 - 48:14)
Well, look at the StoplightApproach.org. So that is our website. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And you can preorder and sign up for your book (Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children). You can get that on Amazon.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:32)
Wonderful. We will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And Cherilyn, you may know we are called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so is my final question for you today. What is your Savvy Sauce?
 
Cherilyn Orr: (48:33 - 48:55)
I would say that it's not about controlling behavior. It's about connecting with my child. Relationship first rather than behavior first. It's like changing the equation. Relationship is the key. And everything else will flow out of that. And then if you can think of change the brain. Then you'll be able to change the behavior.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:56 – 49:20)
Oh, I love that. That is memorable. And I really appreciate your emphasis on relationship. And it's so helpful to hear your stories of how this has played out over time. And cultures. And how we can now take this common language into our own homes. So, Cherilyn, thank you so much for sharing this research. And your book with us. And thank you for being my guest today.
 
Cherilyn Orr: (49:21 – 49:23)
Thank you for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:24 – 53:06)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum (Episode 282)

282. Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum
 
Mark 2:27 NIV “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Eryn Lynum is a certified Master Naturalist, Bible teacher, national speaker, and author. Eryn lives in Northern Colorado with her husband, Grayson, and their four children, whom they homeschool—mainly in the great outdoors. Eryn has has been featured on FamilyLife Today, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Christian Parenting, MOPS International, Bible Gateway, Her View From Home, and For Every Mom. Every opportunity she gets, she is out exploring God’s creation with her family and sharing the adventures. To learn more about Eryn, visit ErynLynum.com.
 
Eryn’s Books
Eryn’s Free Resources Mentioned
Nat Theo Podcast
 
Topics and Questions We Cover:
What can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?
What do people actually do on this day of rest and what do you recommend for families?
Are there any other practical benefits we’re missing out on if we neglect rest?
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
 
Related Savvy Sauce Episodes:
81 Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith
99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit
175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:34) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
 
Eryn Lynum is my wonderful guest for today, and she's the author of this beautiful book, The Nature of Rest. We're going to discuss all things related to rest, ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it, what good gifts God has for us with rest, and then how to reflect well on the rhythms in our life, and so much more.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eryn.
 
Eryn Lynum: (1:34 - 4:03) Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
 
Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to start us off by sharing your personal journey and tell why you are so uniquely qualified to teach and write about rest, as stress can literally kill you.
 
Eryn Lynum: Yeah, that's correct. So, when I was 14 years old, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmune disorder. And kind of the context of that season, I was preparing to go overseas for the first time on a missions trip. So, I was going to be in Africa for two months. And so, before you go do something like that, you have to go to the doctor and get a checkup and vaccine recommendations, all the things. And so, my parents took me in.
 
Again, I was 14 at the time, and we had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong. There were no red flags. Besides, I had been a little tired, a little dizzy once in a while, but really, we just thought, okay, well, I'm growing up, my body's changing. But when the nurse took my blood pressure that day, it was 56 over 48, which is deathly low.
 
And so, immediately, that's a red flag. And I undergo more testing and hospital visits and seeing specialists. And they diagnosed me with something called Addison's disease. And Addison's disease, it's where your adrenal glands no longer function. So, maybe you've heard of adrenal fatigue, where someone is so taxed out that their adrenal glands can't keep up because they're meant to produce cortisol, which is our stress hormone. Well, Addison's disease is the worst-case scenario where you can't come back from it, barring a miracle. Like, my adrenal glands don't work, and they haven't for over 20 years now.
 
And so, you know, this system that God has given us meant to cope with stress, and it's that fight-or-flight response. At that young age, I no longer had that. And so, stress became quite literally deadly to me. And at that point, my parents, they began coaching me in biblical stress management, so identifying stressors in my life.
 
You know, when your shoulders start creeping up, and you can feel that tension in your neck, and knowing that those are signs that, okay, you need to step back, you need to calm yourself. Like the Psalms talk about, “I have calmed and quieted my soul,” and to bring everything to the Lord and cast all your anxieties upon Him. And this is really where I can see, in my life, I developed a very consistent prayer pattern in my life where just all day long, like conversing with the Lord.
 
And so, that's been a big part of this. But yeah, that's really what began leading me into this deeply restful lifestyle was out of necessity. But really what I've seen since then is God designed all of us to live and thrive through rest. Like this is His original design.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:04 - 4:27) I love that so much. And you articulate this so well in your book. But before I ever encountered you, I had never heard of the term master naturalist before. So, if you want to share anything about that, it would be great. And as a master naturalist, where do you see these rhythms of rest in nature?
 
Eryn Lynum: (4:28 - 6:54) So, a master naturalist, it's really a fancy term for nature teacher. And I pursued this because my degree and my passion are in biblical theology. And I've always been passionate about rightly handling God's word of truth from 2 Timothy 2:15.
 
And I began to see as my own family, my husband and I, we have three boys and a daughter, and now they're 14 down to seven. But when they were younger and we started spending more time outdoors, I started to see, okay, God has given us so many visuals and materials in nature with which we can teach about Him. Coming from Romans 1:20, that His invisible attributes, those things we can't see about God, are clearly perceived through what He has made. And I saw that also Jesus in the gospels, He used nature all the time to teach.
 
And God throughout scripture, like it's not just Genesis 1, nature narratives are strong throughout scripture. And so, I thought if God and Jesus use this methodology to teach, then certainly we can. And so, that's why I went through this training and taught, teach with this method is because, you know, the more we understand these materials, the more we see of God and the more we can communicate about Him.
 
And so, I was working as a master naturalist in our city and teaching my own programs. And I started to incorporate it more and more into my book and then later on in my podcast. And at the same time, God was leading my family into celebrating Sabbath. We had come into this season where we were just exhausted, like running businesses and raising and homeschooling kids, like all of us, no matter our circumstances, face this very real human existence of fatigue. And so, we came to a place where rest was no longer optional. It was critical and vital.
 
And so, I'm living in these two realms of learning about nature while I'm learning about scripture. And then God is bringing us into deep rest. So, I started to ask the question, where do we see rest in scripture? And I found that it is everywhere. The roots of rest run deep and wide throughout scripture. And also asking, where do we see rest in creation in nature? And it's also everywhere there that God designed all these cycles and these rhythms and all of his plants and creatures, even the ones that we think of as so frenetic and busy that God designed them to thrive through rest.
 
Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:04) And will you give a specific example then of something in nature as it's so apparent that it's designed for rest?
 
Eryn Lynum: (7:04 - 8:28) Definitely. Let's focus on one of those ones that we often think of as really busy, the hummingbird. I opened the book with the analogy of a hummingbird because when you think about a hummingbird, what do you picture in your mind?
 
Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:19) Busy, constant movement in and out.
 
Eryn Lynum: (7:20 - 8:28) Yeah, exactly. Like they have to visit between 1,000 and 2,000 flowers every day to get all the nectar that they need. And so, they are always like here and there in the next place. And they look like this little thing just zipping through the air and you can't even see their wings beating because they can be up to 70 times a second. It's this blur of motion. And we think about that little hummingbird, and we can sometimes feel like that little hummingbird just zipping from one thing to the next, thinking there's no time to stop.
 
But the hummingbird does stop. It has a very strategic method of rest called torpor. And torpor is kind of like a mini hibernation where the little bird is going to go into this deep state of rest. It lowers its body temperature by around 50 degrees and becomes completely unresponsive. And this is a regular thing that the hummingbird does, and it enables it to continue its God-given, good, busy, fruitful work. So, it's this picture of, you know, busyness is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but it's all meant to be sustained through deep, rhythmic, intentional rest.
 
Laura Dugger: (8:28 - 9:06) I mean, immediately that makes me think of the weeks, even that I'm most productive, I've probably prioritized my sleep the best of it. And if I get great sleep, even if it's extra hours, that doesn't take away from the rest of the day. That probably makes my time even multiplied.
 
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love, you point out so many times how God just clearly designed his creation to enjoy this gift of rest. So, you mentioned some of the nature parts. What about some of the foundational scriptural truths on this topic?
 
Eryn Lynum: (9:07 - 11:52) Yeah, well, of course, where's the first place that we get the idea of rest in the scripture? Yeah, exactly. So, God completes his work of creation and then he rests and he didn't need to rest. Isaiah 40:28 tells us that he, the creator of the world does not grow weary or tired.
 
I believe that one reason, and I talk about a couple of them in the book, but I believe that one main reason God rested was to stop and delight. That word Sabbath, it comes from the Hebrew word Shabbat, which can mean to both stop and delight. Like think about God finishing his creative work, bringing, bringing everything from nothing. Ex nihilo is that theological term, everything from nothing. Creating not only the animals and the plants, but the textures and the math and the shapes and the like everything he needed to make these things. And I imagine he just wanted to stop and enjoy it. I can even picture him going through creation and listening to the birds and taking in the colors and the shapes of the clouds.
 
What a beautiful reminder to us, because I know for myself, I'm so prone to just run from one thing to the next, like check it off the list. What's next? But here God is modeling for us. Stop delight, praise him for what he just allowed us to accomplish, to create, to do before rushing on to the next thing.
 
And so, we get that first mentioned there at creation, but then think about when Sabbath was actually established, there's a framework, there's a structure it's Exodus 16. And the context here is the Israelites. They're doing what they do. They're wandering and grumbling. They're hangry and God shows mercy to them in the form of quail and manna, but he has very specific instructions for them. He says for six days, you shall gather it, but not on the seventh day. Don't go out. It is a solemn day, a Holy Sabbath to the Lord.
 
That's the first mention of Sabbath, that word in scripture, but consider the Israelites. They had no context for what God was calling them to do. Surely they could think back to the creation story. Okay. God worked and then rested, but they had very little idea of what he was asking them to do. This was an act of faith. God was saying, stop gathering, trust me.
 
And this is so hard for us because like we are so prone to gather, gather, gather, do produce work more out of this scarcity mindset. But this picture is showing God is a God of abundance and his math works. When we trust him to be the provider, not ourselves. And we take that risk on rest. He provides abundantly through it.
 
Laura Dugger: (11:53 - 12:05) Absolutely. And within this gift then of rest, how can rest actually reorder and re-energize our lives?
 
Eryn Lynum: (12:05 - 14:03) I love this question because throughout the book, we talk a lot about reordering and creating margins. So, we can rest and reprioritizing. You know, it's so interesting when we look at the creation narrative, where we get that first mention of rest, because it's backwards to what we normally think.
 
Think about this. God created for six days and then he rested. Adam, the first human was created on that sixth day. So, Adam's first full day was a day of arrest, dedicated to rest. And in this, we see that God worked and then rested. But we, humanity, we were always meant to begin from rest.
 
And you see that even in the Hebrew tradition of a day, their day begins at evening. Their day doesn't start with, let's get up and get to work. Their day starts with, let me go to rest to get ready for the work. So, first we have to reorder our concept of rest, not see it as a reward. Oh, I'm going to work, work, work, get all the things done so that maybe I can rest this weekend or on vacation, or when the kids are out of the house or in retirement, that's backwards to the biblical framework. We are meant to begin from rest.
 
So, starting there. And as we do that, my family has found after sabbathing for three and a half years now, everything else kind of falls into place. And that happens when you operate by God's design. You know, rest allows us to tend to the most important things. Those deep values, whether like that should be of course, faith and family. So, getting clear on your values is really important. Like what is most important to your family faith? Maybe it's community generosity. Maybe it's physical health, mental health, all these things do better. And we have more time to tend to them when we first make room and space for rest.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:04 - 16:28) And now a brief message from our sponsor. 
 
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It never ceases to amaze me how God's economy and his math are just different. Sometimes upside down from ours, but I feel like when you're speaking, it reminds me of Matthew 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.” So, if we actually obey, I think there are so many blessings that we can enjoy from this gift of rest. So, you're talking about our values. Then what can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?
 
Eryn Lynum: (16:30 - 18:30) Yes, this is an ongoing practice because the enemy is always trying to distract us from what is most important. And that word there is key distract. And so, first we have to learn to identify those distractions, the things that are pulling us away from what is most important, but you know, getting to those core values and on my website, I have, my husband and I developed a family values guide that helps you step by step to really figure out what are our deepest values.
 
So, that's erinlynum.com/values. But really what it is, is this practice of getting clear on God's best for, for us and for our families and for those around us and, and making sure that we are aligning and realigning because it's going to get out of alignment, those values with God's agenda. You know, a lot of days I just start my day with a restful pause.
 
I call them in the book, Selah pauses. And I am quite literally, I am sitting before the Lord, my eyes closed and my hands just up in this posture of surrender and receiving. And I will say, Lord, I am surrendering my own agenda, my own expectations for this day. And I want to receive your power, your presence, your peace. And then throughout the day, just taking those checks.
 
Like I practice these daily Selah pauses and moments of rest because think about Selah in the Psalms. It can mean to pause, to contemplate, to redirect. And we need to do that often because as a day goes on, I think we lose energy and focus. You know, at the beginning of the day, we might feel really like focused. And this is what I'm getting done today. And that can waver like that can wane out as the day goes on. And so, constantly just checking back in.
 
Okay, Lord, what is it you have for me to do today? And how do I tend to those most important things? But you have to take that restful pause to be able to do that.
 
Laura Dugger: (18:31 - 18:46) That's good reminder. Okay. So, to check back in with the Lord and then can you give another example of one family and what their value is and how they live that out in their daily life. And maybe even what requires us to say no to.
 
Eryn Lynum: (18:47 - 20:15) Ooh, that's a fantastic question. Hmm. Can it be for my own family or do you want me to give them love it from your own family?
 
Okay. I was asked this question recently. Someone asked me, how do you make time to be outside as a family? One of our core family values is to be out exploring in God's creation. And this has been harder in different seasons. And we have two middle schoolers now, you know, we are, we have a lot going on.
 
And so, it can very quickly happen where at the end of the day, we're like, wow, we really didn't spend much time outdoors today, but how we prioritize this is you do have to say no to other things. So, we're a homeschooling family. And just as an example, it can be very tempting to feel like, am I doing enough? Am I teaching them enough? We need to check off all these boxes and get the lessons done. And it's constantly surrendering that and realizing, you know, I know that our value of being outdoors is important to God. I know that he is meeting my children there. He is meeting me there. He is giving us rest and rejuvenation there.
 
So, trusting with that, again, going back to the Israelites, stop gathering, stop checking off all the boxes, stop trying to provide and meet your own expectations. And instead stay super focused on what God has called you to and ruthlessly get rid of the rest, anything that's keeping you from that.
 
Laura Dugger: (20:16 - 20:36) I love that personal example. Thank you for sharing. And how can we also in our own families or in our own life, how can we distinguish which activities are vital for the abundant life in Christ that he offers so that we don't settle for less?
 
Eryn Lynum: (20:38 - 22:46) I love that you bring up that, that term, the abundant life. In John 10:10, that Christ came, that we might have life and life abundantly overflowing to the fullest, like brimming over is what that word means. And that scripture also says the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy.
 
And I believe that one of the enemy's biggest schemes and methods for that is to send us into hurry and hustle mode. And he does that through distraction and discontent. And so, so much of this is pressing back against distraction and discontent and getting back to how God created us to thrive.
 
And again, I believe that that is through this, this gift of rest. You know, you talk about, you asked about settling for less. The enemy is going to put a million things in our life that would cause us to want to settle for less.
 
Let me give you an example of him trying to distract us. There was a recent weekend where we were coming up on the weekend, and I had several friends reach out and ask about me doing these things like these different opportunities coming our way. Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? And each of them were for on Saturday and that's usually when our family Sabbaths. And so, I had this tension because these were good things.
 
It's hard to say no to a good thing, but I kept feeling again and again, the Lord saying, no, rest with your family, rest with your family. And it was so sweet because come Saturday morning, I was out on our back deck sipping coffee with my husband for hours, having incredible conversations, reading great books. The kids are playing in the yard.
 
Several times I caught myself thinking, I almost said no to this by saying yes to other things. And again, they were good things. This life is full of good things, but God's rest is one of the best things for our families. So, it's learning to be okay with saying no to those good things. So, you can say yes to that better thing.
 
Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 23:17) Examples are so helpful. And that requires a level of discernment and going to the Lord to ask him, but I'm wondering if you even have a system in place for how you discern that, or is it a gut piece that you follow or any practical ways that each of us can discern what's the right kind of busy that's good. And what's the wrong kind of busy and the things that we want to say no to.
 
Eryn Lynum: (23:18 - 25:05) Yeah. Going back to, again, busy is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but I think, you know, when we are following Christ and God's spirit is within us, he's going to give us that sense of this is the right kind of busy.
 
This is the wrong kind of busy. And practically, you know, if it has any notion of distraction, like if you're doing this thing to just distract you or to procrastinate on better things, if it has a note of busyness, you know, some people will be like, well, some people, the enemy makes us want to think that sitting on our phones can be restful because you're not technically doing much of anything, but that distraction is stealing God's true gift of rest for us.
 
And so, you know, our family, as we practice Sabbath throughout the week, I know that come Saturday, we have a full day of rest. And sometimes it's tempting to add a little work into there, to let it seep out of those edges of the work week and kind of into our Sabbath. And as you practice this more and more and begin just ruthlessly protecting that time, whether it's a full day, whether you start with a half day, God is going to make you more sensitive to those things. Because sometimes I'll like work it out in my mind, like, oh, this isn't work. And really like it's definitely, it's definitely trying to serve my work during the work week.
 
And God is saying, no, like step away from that and allow me to refresh and rejuvenate your spirit so that when you go back to the work, you do so much more powerfully energized, restful, and ready to do that work to the very best of your ability with God's power.
 
Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:36) That reminds me of a previous guest I'll link to. He did two episodes, but Jeff Henderson just said he's a pastor too. And he said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap.
 
I would agree on that, which you've kind of been sharing a little glimpses of your family's experience with Sabbath, but let's just zero in on Sabbath and I'll just try and go through a series of questions. But first what's the importance of Sabbath?
 
Eryn Lynum: (25:37 - 26:55) Well, first God commands it. Like if God commanded it, then surely it's important, but that can also sometimes cause us to get a little legalistic about it. What is it? What isn't it? Well, it is meant to be a gift, meant to be a blessing. It's meant to empower us and what God created us for and calls us to.
 
And so, keeping that just center, this is meant to be a gift, but we see it all throughout scripture, the importance of rest and rest in God's design. It's celebration. Like it's not idleness. It's not doing nothing. Although sometimes like that's the most beneficial way that we can rest. Like you talked about a nap.
 
I love a good nap on Sabbath, but also it can be energizing activities, inspiring activities. I also love a good long walk on Sabbath. Sometimes I love cooking with fresh ingredients and working on a meal during Sabbath because I don't get much opportunity to do that during the week. Sometimes I love going out and working in the garden because that's life giving and I don't have time to do that throughout the week. And so, getting back to this concept, this idea of Sabbath and rest are celebratory. Like when we do it well as a family, it feels like a mini vacation every week.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:56 - 27:15) Ooh, I love that. My husband said that before about date night and I connect with that, that it's a little mini reprieve, a mini vacation each week. But then that leads me to the question because I bet so many people share their Sabbath activities with you. What do families actually do on this day of rest?
 
Eryn Lynum: (27:16 - 31:46) Yeah, that's a great question. And first I'll say that it should look different from family to family. We are all in unique seasons. We have different stories, different scenarios. Again, if you can't start with the full day, now I strongly believe strive and work toward that full day. That's God's design.
 
And we've seen the most blessing from that. But if you have to start smaller with a half day with four hours, start there. So, it's going to look different. If you have newborns, like a newborn child, it's going to look different and that's okay. No going into it, that it's going to be messy. Hebrews says strive toward rest, work toward rest. It's so counter-cultural. We have to work toward it. So, just going in, knowing these things is very helpful.
 
It's also going to grow, adapt, and change throughout the seasons. Our family has seen that. But a typical Sabbath for our family right now is we follow the traditional Friday evening to Saturday evening for the most part. Some people ask me, why not Sunday? Isn't Sunday the Sabbath? Well, for us, Sunday is set aside for church community and fellowship and corporate worship. And that's so life-giving to our souls. But by the time I get home from church and I'm making lunch for the family, like I'm not rested physically. So, we needed a separate day set aside for rest.
 
And so, Friday afternoon, we start preparing where we're going to band together and just pick up the house, get it ready, wash all the dishes and just start preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our home for rest. And then we start Friday evening with communion as a family, just breaking bread and celebrating what Christ did on our behalf. And again, that, that idea of celebrate, and this marks it as special. Okay. We're heading into Sabbath. Some families will like light a white candle for Sabbath, just really marking it.
And then we have, we toast to the week. So, we'll pour sparkling juice and just toast and say, “Hey, what did we see God do this week?” Like going back to that idea of stop and delight, we are setting a hard stop to the week. We are delighting. What did we see God do? What did he help us overcome? What can we thank Him for from this past week? And then we'll do an easy dinner. Think tacos, take and bake pizza spaghetti.
 
We use paperware, which is a bit controversial since I work as a master naturalist, but it has been an easy button for Sabbath that I'm not worried about like dishes piling up on the counter. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with a sweet treat like ice cream and then our kids go to bed, or they'll listen to audio books. Audio books have been massive for our Sabbath because they're screen-free because we do put away all screens and work like devices on Sabbath, but they can listen to good books.
 
And my husband and I, we read, like people ask me, when do you find time to read? You don't find time to read. You have to make time to read. And for us, that's on the Sabbath mostly. And then Saturday we sleep in, we get up pretty early during the week and the kids just know like you don't wake mom and dad on the Sabbath. Like that's their day to sleep in.
 
Again, if you have a newborn or young children, that's gonna look different and that's okay. But for us, that's the season that we're in and our kids, they'll make themselves first breakfast and then eventually we'll get up and we'll join them for a second breakfast or some Sabbath. I don't want to cook at all. And so, it's just take and forage. And you know, I usually have a grocery delivery the day before or go to the grocery store and make sure we just have a ton of good stuff in the house. So, no one's, you know, everyone has what they need.
 
Then the rest of the day, it is just a day of delight. Reading books, playing games, being out in creation, visiting with neighbors, having great conversations together. Sabbath is this space where you get to do all those things during the week that you're like, oh, I wish I had time for that and you just don't get to them. Like recently my daughter during the week, she really wanted me, she's seven. She wanted me to sit down and watercolor paint with her, which I love doing, but it was a really busy week. And I just didn't have the space.
 
And so, I told her like, “Hey, I would love to do that. Can we do that on Sabbath?” And she was so happy with that answer. And come that Sabbath a few days later, she remembered, she came up to me. She's like, mom, it's time to paint. And she got all the supplies, and we went and sat outside at our picnic table and painted for the afternoon.
 
You know, Sabbath does so much for me as a mom to remove that guilt of the things I don't feel like I have time for because I know, and my kids know, Sabbath is coming and that's our day to be together and do those things.
 
Laura Dugger: (31:47 - 31:57) Hmm. Okay. That makes me curious. Then to how much of a vote does everyone in the family get for what Sabbath will look like?
 
Eryn Lynum: (31:57 - 34:02) Oh, that is a great question. No one's ever phrased it to me like that before. I love that. What we found that's been important to keep in mind is that we all individually find different things, restful and inspiring. I'll give you an example. One Sabbath, my husband, especially in the spring, he loves to work in the yard on Sabbath because he spends most of his week. He runs a construction company on the computer or on the phone. And so, in the spring, he wants to be out in the yard and trimming his fruit trees and just working with God's creation. And so, one Sabbath he comes and he has like the clippers in his hand and he's like, “Hey, let's go work on the yard.”
 
And I was like, that's great. You do that. I'm going to go read my book in the hammock. And I fell asleep for two hours while he worked on the yard. And so, a lot of this is being okay that yes, a lot of it's going to be together. Like I talked about, we did, we do communion together and we do meals together. And a lot of times we'll be out on a hike together. That's a favorite Sabbath activity. But a lot of times we're also doing separate activities.
 
The kids are enjoying their books or their audio books or their painting or their, uh, visiting the neighbor kids. And my husband and I are reading books on the back deck. And so, it's okay that there's going to be some together time and some separate time, you know, just being flexible with it. Like our first year of Sabbath, we went, we had to go like hardcore. We had to learn to stay. I think about in the book, I talk about the word abide meno in the Greek and it can mean to stay, to dwell, to remain.
 
So, we've spent our first year of Sabbath, not getting in the car. We stayed home and learned to just be home together. And after that year, we started to miss our time. We live in Colorado, missing our time hiking in the mountains. And so, we changed it. We said, okay, well, toward the end of Sabbath Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, let's go hike or let's go have a picnic in the wilderness. And just being open to that, that God's going to change you as a family and change you individually. And just growing up in a Sabbath practice together.
 
Laura Dugger: (34:03 - 34:20) I like the freedom that you're communicating there. And then when you mentioned the neighborhood kids, it makes me curious. Do you encourage community for some of those who recharge with other people? Would you recommend Sabbath thing with others or just keeping it your family?
 
Eryn Lynum: (34:21 - 36:16) Absolutely. We love inviting others into Sabbath. And it actually started with, we started our Sabbath practice. It was so sweet because God convinced us to do this. And then our first Sabbath was on January 1st. That happened to be the first Saturday that we did it. So, it was like this fresh start. And right around that time, we had moved to a new neighborhood. And our neighbors near us are Messianic Jews.
 
And they follow Shabbat, the traditional Shabbat. And they invited us into that. It was the sweetest evening, and they have children, young children, like we do. So, like there's chaos and there's mess. And then there's sweet times of singing together and scripture reading. And they follow it much more the traditional method than our family has.
 
But it was so sweet to be invited into that and to get a picture for how to invite others into this rest. And so, absolutely, we encourage, especially our kids having friends over. And we do usually ask parents, hey, can you drop them off? And then we can bring them back maybe like later that day toward the end of our Sabbath. Or if you want to come pick them up. Because again, we like to just stay home if we can.
 
But our kids are to the point now too where they can ride their bikes over to friends' houses. And we're fine with that. They might not be home on Sabbath once in a while. It's not a regular thing. But they're getting fed. And we know that the people they're with are people who share our values, people that we do life together.
 
We love having bonfires in the backyard on Sabbath. Now one thing I have to be careful of is I don't want to invite people over and feel like I need to host or clean up first. And so, for one, we don't have full families over a whole lot on Sabbath because I just don't want any sort of self-induced, self-imposed pressure.
 
But sometimes it's so much fun to just be like, hey, let's go meet at a park and have a picnic dinner. Or let's have a family over and do a bonfire. Just making sure that you're keeping it really, really simple if you are going to incorporate community.
 
Laura Dugger: (36:17 - 37:54) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.
 
Some of these things, like you said, “They do require forethought where you have the groceries coming or certain things in place. And I think you even refer to it as a sacred striving.” So, it's important for us to learn more about that. And here's a quick story.
 
I just remember we've moved states quite a few times in marriage. But when I was a young mom, there was a mom in the next season of life, and she had more kids than we did. And we went to church together, and she was just like, “Oh, we learned about Sabbath. That's not a thing for moms with multiples.” And I always wrestled with that, and I love her. She's a wonderful person. Maybe she's even changed her stance on that, so it's not to speak ill of her. But I do think that we can struggle with that because that's not an actual truth. I do think that's a message from the enemy.
 
So, I guess this is a two-part question. How do we protect ourselves from buying into a storyline that is not true that may hold us back from Sabbath? And then also, what is kind of the both and? It's both restful, and it requires a lot of work up front to make this a reality.
 
Eryn Lynum: (37:55 - 41:19) It does, and knowing that, that it is going to take work, but God's going to bless it. Think about Isaiah 55:10-11, that says, “Just like the rain and the snow go forth and produce life and bring forth life from the land, so my work goes out and does not return void or empty. It produces that which I sent it out for.”.
 
That is true for Sabbath and rest because, again, we find it all throughout scripture. So, know that it's going to take hard work, but God will not allow it to return void. He will bless our efforts as we step into His design that He created us for.
 
I talk about in the book a few ways that you have to prepare mentally, physically, and spiritually. So, mentally, for me, I have to just totally remove anything mentally that's going to distract me from rest. So, I own a business, and so a lot of my work is on the computer and on the phone. I will answer, so this is like Friday, I'll answer any lingering emails, those ones that are going to be on my mind if I don't get to them. And then I put an away message on my email. So, if anyone emails me on our Sabbath, it sends an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for your message. My family's resting. It has a little blurb in there about Sabbath. I'll get back to you in the new week.
 
That gives me permission to not even look at my email. In fact, people expect that I'm not looking at my email if I'm keeping my word. And so, this has just freed me up mentally to step away, and then I literally put my laptop in my closet.
 
With my phone, I set it to a Sabbath mode, and you can create these different focus modes if you have a smartphone, so that I can only receive messages from my mom in case of emergency. And our people, our friends, they all know this now. Like, oh, I'm not going to hear back from Erin because it's Saturday for the most part.
 
And so, these little things that you might just need to mentally prepare yourself. And then physically, that goes back to preparing our home. So, this is not a deep clean that we do prior to Sabbath. It's just tending to the things that are going to distract me if we don't get to them beforehand. So, again, washing all the dishes and having the kitchen clean, vacuuming. Like, that's like just a hack to make the house feel clean is I feel like it's clean if it's vacuumed.
 
So, just these little things, and then physically also doing that grocery order. And I have a free Sabbath guide on my website, erinlynum.com/family-sabbath. And it walks you through creating your Sabbath grocery list so that every week you have what you need in the house. These little things that truly make it, Sabbath easier and more successful.
 
And then preparing spiritually, going into this, like a lot of times I'll know, okay, I'm going to study this on Sabbath. For our first year, I just had like this stack of books on Sabbath that I would work through on our Sabbath. Right now, I am parked in Genesis 1 and have been for weeks. And so, just preparing spiritually, you know, this is a time of communion with our creator, with our heavenly father. And so, just having an idea of, you know, this is how I want to spend time delighting in God on the Sabbath.
 
That might be a long walk. That might be time in the word or time of worship but making sure that that is a keystone part of your Sabbath practice.
 
Laura Dugger: (41:20 - 41:45) And, you know, it really is possible. I just think so many of us celebrate holidays and we do the same thing where we plan, prepare, prioritize ahead of time so that we can delight in that day. And what a gift to get to do that weekly. So, with all of these amazing benefits, why do we still resist God's design for rest?
 
Eryn Lynum: (41:46 - 43:00) Because we live in a fallen world, broken by sin, and the enemy wants to do everything he can to keep us from this. This is God's design and our faith, and our souls and our families flourish in this design. And so, the enemy is going to do whatever he can to keep us from it.
 
He's going to insert fear. He's going to insert distraction. He's going to insert doubt. You know, when we started this practice coming up to it, I was thinking, there's no way, like how are we going to get everything done in one last day a week, all these doubts. And yet what we found so quickly is that as we took this step of faith, we quickly became so much more productive and effective and creative during the work week, because we were starting from rest and following God's design.
 
We resist this because it is counter-cultural. Everything in society is set up against us doing this and succeeding in this. So, again, going and knowing that our war is not against flesh and blood. It is against the powers of the spheres, like things unseen. The enemy is against us, but God is on our side. And as we step into his design, he's going to make much of it.
 
Laura Dugger: (43:01 - 43:12) Okay. So, if we are convinced and we want to give this a try, what is a practical first step to just obeying this and receiving this gift of rest?
 
Eryn Lynum: (43:13 - 45:23) Yeah, super practical here. Two first steps. The first is to set a day and time. Now you're not committing to this forever. And again, if you, if a big hesitancy here is I can't do a full day. Okay. Work and pray toward that but start smaller. If it's four hours on a Wednesday, guard that time. Ruthlessly guard it. Don't let anything be written on the schedule besides that.
 
So, set a day in time and then write two lists. This is going back to the idea of stop and delight, right? Your stop list. These are things that send you into hurry and hustle mode, things that are related to normal work, things that feel heavy. Some of them are so important.
 
Again, our work is important, but this is going to be things like devices, media, regular work, answering emails, phone calls. It might be driving in traffic. It might be spending money. Write down those things that feel heavy. That's your stop list. The things you're not going to entertain on that day or that time.
 
And then write your delight list. This might be hard at first because what I've found with myself, with many of us is that we forget what we delight in but causes that childlike sense of play and wonder. This is learning to be human again, coming back to those things.
 
So, it might be playing music or listening to music, working with fresh ingredients, reading a good book, writing by hand, watercolor painting, going for a walk. What we find is that a lot of people who spend time during the week in front of a computer want to be outdoors on the Sabbath, but people who run a landscaping company might want to be inside with a great book. So, just writing down those things that are, again, those things that you think during the week, oh, I really wish I could get to that.
 
Only we don't. Those are your delight list. So, now you have a day and a time. You know what you're not going to do, what you're setting aside, even physically, that should probably most definitely be your phone. Stick it in a drawer. I have my Sabbath drawer where I put my phone, and then you know what you're going to do and spend that day on.
 
Laura Dugger: (45:24 - 45:47) That's so good. And for those who have been listening for a while, they could even put their phone in their RO box, and I could link to that episode as well with Joey Odom. That's incredible about where our phone could be in its right place.
 
But Eryn, are there any other practical benefits that we might be missing out on that you've seen as a result of this Sabbath rest?
 
Eryn Lynum: (45:48 - 49:44) One of my favorite benefits is how it unlocks our creativity. Whether you work in a career or position that you consider creative or not, God designed all of us to be creative, to produce. And so, what I have found is that my work, my work is very in that creative sphere, writing books, creating podcast lessons for children.
 
It's very creative work. And I've found that Sabbath is this day where God gives my mind rest. It's so incredible thinking about how he wired our brains to thrive through rest, and science points to that that a restful mind is better at problem-solving, connecting ideas, remembering details.
 
And so, as my mind is allowed to rest on Sabbath, and I'm out on a walk in nature, or I'm reading a good book, or I'm writing by hand, when it comes time to sit down at the computer Monday morning, I am ready. I am flowing with ideas. They are there.
 
And I'll give you an example. This one isn't from Sabbath. It's from one of my daily rest rhythms that I call Selah Pause, and that's a walk in the morning. And this might be a little controversial, but this is not an easy stroll. I have my rucking pack on, and I'm trekking up a hill, which is not physically restful, of course, but it's mentally restful for me. I love it.
 
And so, it was in January, so it's frigid out, and everything's covered in snow, and I'm in all my snow gear, and I'm trudging up this hill. And at the time, I was dealing with a problem in my podcast where it was a good problem. We had spent the month teaching about God's designs in the human body. So, we had taught kids about God's designs in cells and DNA and the heart and the brain, but I didn't want to just let this series end. I wanted to wrap it up in some powerful way, and I didn't know how. So, I could have stayed home that morning and hashed this out and been at the computer, and how should I end this thing?
 
Instead, I went on this walk, and God just dropped this idea in my mind. And it was this idea. He said, ask the kids how they are wonderfully made. And that was the top. The theme was wonderfully made. And so, I put it out there to my email list. When I got back from that walk, I said, hey, I would love to hear how you kids believe you are wonderfully made by the creator. And I opened up this little voice mailbox on our website, and I didn't know if anyone would respond. And then I'm like, what if they don't? And then I don't know what to do because I said I'm going to do this thing.
 
I tell you, message after message came in from children from ages. I think it was three or four up to 14 from all over the world. And I was weeping as I edited that episode. I had planned to add something at the beginning and the end to build out this episode. I didn't do that because it was, I believe it's 22 minutes straight of children saying, this is my name.
 
I'm five years old. I live in England and I'm wonderfully made because God made me to read well or God made me fast. Or one little boy shared, he said, I know I'm wonderfully made because my mama lost a baby before me. And I'm here and I'm wonderfully made. And I'm weeping.
 
And this idea that God gave me, I would have missed it if I hadn't taken that pause to be out in his creation walking that day. And so, that's a very roundabout way to get back to your question of what are the other benefits? We hear from God when we make time for rest. And if we keep just rushing and hurrying, I'm concerned that we are walking by so many opportunities to hear from his spirit and to let him unlock that potential within us.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 50:22) Oh, I love that. And I'm even reminded of one other thing that you write in your book that today, one way we can practically experience his original design of rest is by stepping outside. And you're full of tips and ideas like that, but I so appreciate those stories.
 
So, you've equipped us with this foundation of rest and ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it. And so now, Eryn, how can we reflect well on our rhythms of work and rest?
 
Eryn Lynum: (50:25 - 53:19) So, much of this is reflection. So, much of this is stopping to consider where God is at work in our lives, where we need to recalibrate, where we need to realign, where we need to step back into his pace because we're trying to run ahead of him. And one way that we can see it, you know, like you might ask the question, am I at rest? Even me sometimes on Sabbath, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, is this actually restful? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?
 
I think we can answer that question by the fruit in our lives, the fruit inside of us that God is producing and the fruit that we are producing. So, one thing I kind of sum up the book on is this question of, are you growing in truth and love? Because the enemy, when he gets us away from God's rest and into hustle, into distraction and hurry, we are not fully experiencing God.
 
And so, our levels of experiencing his love and offering it to others is going to suffer. Our experience of hearing his truth and living that truth out in our lives is going to suffer. And so, the opposite is true that as we live at rest, this whole concept of abide, that is living at rest, not just these rest practices, but living at rest in God's restful presence, we are going to be producing more love and more truth.
 
So, that's like a key visual. And then I love on that idea of abide. We spent a whole week on abide in the book and, you know, John chapter 15 being the abide passage. And what we see there is there's these 11 mentions of that word abide. And they all refer to us abiding in Christ, Christ abiding in us, God's word abiding in us. So, all this connectivity between Christ and God and us and his word.
 
But then it's, I think it's verse 16. There's a different mention of meno, abide. And it says that he wants us to go out and produce fruit that abides. So, this is different. It relates to our fruit and that word abide. Yes, it can mean dwell, remain, stay, but it can also mean continue and endure.
 
God created us to produce fruit and fruit that endures. Doesn't rot, doesn't fade, but continues into eternity. So, we can look at, okay, am I personally in my spirit? Am I growing in truth and love? Because God's spirit actually has the space to minister to me when I rest. And is that rest directly affecting the fruit of my life?
 
These are key things that we can look at and ask to see. Are we truly living from God's rest?
 
Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:53) I love questions so much. And that's so good to reflect then on the fruit that's being produced. And a mentor many years ago said, you never reap what you sow in the same season. So, that's a great place to even begin just reflecting. What did we do in the past season and what fruit are we reaping now? And where do we want to go then from here?
 
And one place we could go from here after this chat is to follow you. And you've mentioned your podcast. Do you want to elaborate on all the places that you're available?
 
Eryn Lynum: (53:54 - 55:03) Yes, thank you. So, the new book, The Nature of Rest is available wherever you get your books, along with my second book, Rooted in Wonder: Nurturing Your Family's Faith Through God's Creation. And that's all about taking our kids or grandkids, the next generation outside and reconnecting the dots between creation and creator. Really returning nature study and time outdoors to its proper place as theology and the study of God.
 
So, those are available anywhere, including Amazon or my website, which is my name, erynlynum.com. And then my podcast is Nat Theo, short for Natural Theology. It's nature lessons rooted in the Bible. It's a podcast for kids and families where we dive deep into science and all the design and intelligence we see in creatures and plants. And we tie it all back to biblical truth so that our kids are learning science and theology at the same time.
 
And that's available on any podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, right on my website, erinlynum.com, as well as YouTube. We actually provide visuals so you can watch what you're learning about as well.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:04 - 55:22) So, incredible. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Eryn, you may already be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Eryn Lynum: (55:24 - 56:34) I love this question. And this is one that actually I was like, oh, I'm not asked this much. I'm going to have to really think deeply on this one.
 
It's get outside every day. That seems so simple, even though it's not really simple in practicality. But one thing I've learned through rest and through time outdoors is that 10 minutes matters. Like if you think I don't have time for this, but you have a 10 minute slot, go for a walk and see how God just communes with your spirit. Even in the dead of winter, if you live somewhere cold, like if it's safe to do so. For me, I had to buy like the best pair of snow pants I could find because I used to really dislike the winter. And I would just become like really down in those winter months.
 
And so, God just convinced me, don't go outside every single day if it's for 10 minutes. And then pretty often he just extends that. Like I think I'm going out for 10 minutes. And sure enough, I'm like playing with my kids outside. It's much longer.
 
But yeah, as best as you can, just prioritize that. If you have to do it first thing in the morning to make sure it happens, go for a walk and watch the sunrise. And God is going to minister to your soul through his creation.
 
Laura Dugger: (56:35 - 56:54) Amen. Amen. That is so good.
 
And this conversation has been so rich. Eryn, it is just very clear you have filled up on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have just poured out goodness and love and truth for all of us, all over all of us today. So, thank you for all that you shared. And thank you for being my guest.
 
Eryn Lynum: (56:55 - 57:03) Thank you. Thank you so much for that encouragement. That means a whole lot to me. So, thank you. And for the opportunity for a great conversation.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:03 - 1:03:10) I really enjoyed it. 
 
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Better Together: Special Patreon Release with Jon and Jolene Rocke

Special Patreon Release: Better Together with Jon and Jolene Rocke
 
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Mark 10:9 (KJV)
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
What are you so thankful you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to empty nesters that you see the pay off now in the present?
How has grace and forgiveness benefited your relationship?
What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one, rather than grow parallel or even grow apart from one another?
 
Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching, but the topic we are going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them and appreciated their sweet bond with one another, and I'm so thrilled to introduce you to them today. Here's our chat:
 
Jon and Jolene both grew up in Christian homes and accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord at the age of 15.  Jon is from Morton and Jolene from Elgin, IL. They met on a bus ride to a Youth Gathering in Minnesota.  They sat together and talked the whole way home about life, the Bible and God.  Jon played his guitar and sang John Denver songs and their match was made with “Sunshine on my Shoulders”.
 
They married at the age of 18 and had their first child, Janelle, at 19.  They left for Grace college in Winona Lake, Indiana with an 18 month old toddler in tow and had another baby girl born while in college named Jaime.  At graduation in 1984, they were accepted to Trinity Seminary to follow Jon’s desire to be a Professor of Theology, but became pregnant with their son, Jordan, which changed every plan and sent them back home to build up their finances.
 
They came back to Morton and worked in the Family Business and felt called to stay.  They raised their 3 children in Morton working in the business until God loosened their tent pegs and called them to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2017. Jon is the Executive Director and Jolene is the Ministry Ambassador.  They are thankful to be working side-by-side in this new season of their marriage.
 
Jon and Jolene will celebrate their 44th wedding anniversary and have 3 married children and have 10 grandchildren. Their son Jordan and his wife Jessica live in Sandpoint, Idaho with their 3 Kids.  Their daughter Janelle and husband Ryan live in Kennesaw, Georgia with their 3 children.  And their daughter Jaime and her husband Jonathan live here in Morton with their 4 children.
 
Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:
5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller
 
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
Five Love Languages
The 5 Love Languages of Teenagers
A Teen's Guide to the 5 Love Languages
 
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.
 
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If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.
 
And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.
 
Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching. But the topic we're going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them so much and really appreciated their sweet bond with one another. And I'm so thrilled to get to introduce you to them today.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jon and Jolene.
 
Jon Rocke: (2:05 - 2:06) We're so happy to be here, Laura. Thanks so much for having us.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:43) Well, it's truly my pleasure. And will the two of you just start by giving us a little background on how you came to know Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?
 
Jolene Rocke: (2:07 - 2:43) Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area in a suburb and in a Christian home. So, I was very thankful to know about God. And I came to know Him as my personal Savior at 15. And so, then I really had a complete change. And from then on, I have just followed Him as close as I can. So very thankful for Jesus.
 
Jon Rocke: (2:44 - 2:59) Yeah, and I was actually 15 as well. Became overwhelmed with my sin at 15 and knew that I did not know Christ. And so, since then, a very imperfect following, but glad to be part of the family.
 
Laura Dugger: (3:00 - 3:15) Well, and that's awesome that both of you were 15 and never knew that piece of your story. But I'm assuming you were living in different places. So then how did the two of you meet and fall in love?
 
Jolene Rocke: (3:15 - 4:40) That is such a funny story. Because I, along with a friend of mine from Elgin, jumped on a Morton bus going to Morris, Minnesota. And they picked us up in Rockford. And we got on the bus, went to the same youth gathering for our church denomination. And on the way home from that weekend, we sat on the bus the whole way home and talked.
 
And Jon had what was so interesting to me, a study Bible. And I had never seen a study Bible in my life. And so, he showed me what an open Bible was with notes at the bottom. And because I came to Christ at 15 and started Bible study on my own with just a spiral notebook, a pen, and my Bible, I was fascinated by this Bible.
 
And I heard from Morton girls that he carried his Bible everywhere. So, he was kind of different than the rest of the guys. And I told them that's the kind of guy I was looking for. And then to top it all off, he had a guitar. And he sang John Denver songs to me. So, Sunshine on My Shoulders, I think, really made me happy.
 
Laura Dugger: (4:40 - 4:45) Just knowing your family music is such a big part of worship. Yeah. That's part of what wooed you, too.
 
Jon Rocke: (4:40 - 5:35) Yeah. Part of the crazy story is that it's a long trip. It's like a 12-hour trip. And so, we left Morton at like 5 in the morning. And so, I'm sleeping on the floor. And we picked these girls up. And I wake up, and I'm like, “Oh, an angel just got on the bus.” That's what I thought. And she was like, she didn't really have anything to do with me the whole weekend till the way home.
 
But we have a lot of fun with that story. And so that was the beginning. I think I sent flowers the next day. And we began, actually, a very long-distance, over-the-phone relationship, getting to know each other. And we actually went through, I think, the Book of Romans together over the course of, I guess, a year. And then got married. And we were pretty young.
 
Jolene Rocke: (5:36 - 6:47) Yeah. We met when Jon was just 16. And then two weeks after his 18th birthday, we got married. And I'm a year older. So, it was very young. But we are so thankful because we're going to celebrate 44 years of marriage here.
 
So, God knit us together, I think, through the fact that we were both really pursuing the Lord individually. And then we were so happy to find somebody like that. I thought I was headed to be a missionary in Africa at the time I met him. And he was, like, searching, too. But both all out pursuit of Christ. And so, I think that's what knit our hearts together. And it didn't hurt that he sent flowers the next day.
 
Laura Dugger: (6:47 - 7:15) It was a wise move. But I love it because the two of you have really grown up together. Totally. You've been meeting as teens. When you reflect back, what are you so thankful that you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to now empty nesters, that you're getting to see the payoff now in the present?
 
Jon Rocke: (6:49 - 8:10) Yeah, I think sometimes you are intentional. And we've tried to be intentional. But I think sometimes God brings circumstances into your life that sort of force something. So not only were we young when we got married, but nine months after we got married, yeah, we had Janelle, our oldest daughter.
 
And so, we had to realize we still needed time together. And we had a little baby. It began, I think, an intentional course for us to carve out time. So, you know, we put our kids to bed early. It was a big deal for us as parents that we had our time after they went to bed because we didn't get a whole lot of time.
 
And other little silly things, the kids didn't get to sit in between us at church. That was the rule. You can sit on either side of mom and dad, but you can't sit in between us. And so that was just, you know, again, a little thing that we did. And some things we had to learn. I'm more of a night person. Jolene's more of a morning person. Part of that, we had to learn at one point, you know, let's make sure we prioritize going to bed together. Just so, again, we had that time. So, there's been all sorts of different steps along the way that we've tried to prioritize each other.
 
Jolene Rocke: (8:10 - 9:01) So the two words that come to my mind with regard to that are compromise. You're two different people, and you're suddenly thrust together into a home situation. Well, that took compromise on both of our parts. So that's kind of sacrifice, too. That means he doesn't get to stay up until midnight if we want to go to bed together, and I'm going to have to push myself to stay up later just so that we can make a common bedtime.
 
So, compromise, and then I think the other major thing to me would be communication, because we didn't have a relationship before marriage where we were in the same town and could see each other all the time or go on dates. We didn't have that. So, we had letter writing. This is 43 years ago. So, we had letter writing daily.
 
Jon Rocke: (9:02 - 9:04) Some of us were daily. He was daily.
 
Jolene Rocke: (9:05 - 9:11) I wasn't quite as good at letter writing every day, but I was in college by now.
 
Jon Rocke: (9:11 - 9:13) You were still in high school. Now we know.
 
Jolene Rocke: (9:14 - 10:15) But I think the communication factor, that actually helped us because, yes, I realize face-to-face dating is a great thing, but to not be able to do that and have nothing but be able to write your day out, what happened during your day, you're learning to tell the other person what happened in your day, how you felt about that, what your dreams, your goals are. So, it started, to me and us, I think a great foundation of communication.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 10:30) And is it Song of Songs, I believe, 5:16, where part of it says, “This is my lover, this is my friend,” and that's what I'm hearing, is that you were really deepening your friendship in those early years and that from witnessing your lives, it seems that has only continued.
 
Jolene Rocke: (10:30 - 10:35) Yeah, exactly. We are so thankful. It's a very different story than most people, but we're so thankful.
 
Jon Rocke: (10:16 - 10:39) I think also, for us, it was Genesis 2 in the sense that you need to leave everything else and cleave together. We were young. It's hard to believe. When we look back, we think about our kids and our grandkids and would we want that for them, and yet I don't think we'd trade it for the world.
 
Laura Dugger: (10:40 - 10:52) I love that. And what encouragement do you have for others then who are also wanting to build a foundation of remaining connected and intimate in all the aspects of their own marriage?
 
Jon Rocke: (10:53 - 12:07) That's one of those things about being intentional. Matthew 19:6, where Christ repeats that adage from Genesis 2, that God created them male and female, they need to leave mother and father and cleave together, but then he adds this, “and no one should tear that apart.” And we often think about that, I think, as other people tearing that apart, and that's true.
 
But the same goes, we can tear ourselves apart if we're not going to make sure everything else, all other distractions, because they're going to continually come, right? And again, we had kids so early that I think we knew we had to carve that time out, because if we wouldn't have, I'm not sure how that would have worked. We would have been so consumed early. But career, we've just known that we've had to say, if we don't make sure that we're the priority, it's so easy to get lost in all the other things of life that are not bad. Kids are not bad, they're great. And your careers and your work, that's all good. But it can be the enemy of great in a marriage.
 
Jolene Rocke: (12:07 - 12:32) Yeah, we talked about the fact that this is how we started all those years ago. But a pursuit of God individually actually enhances a pursuit of God together. I'm still in the Word individually. Jon's still in the Word individually. But we also then read and pray together every night. So just this pursuit of God.
 
Jon Rocke: (12:32 - 13:06) But that wasn't something we did from day one either. I mean, that was a learned scenario where one time we were just kind of convicted of the fact that together we're not taking time to pray and read together. And so, then we just made that part of routine at night. So then again, that made us say we're going to go to bed together. Because if we didn't, then we didn't have that time. That opportunity to pray together and read together has just become a connection point that we wouldn't want to trade.
 
Laura Dugger: (13:07 - 13:55) I think that's encouraging in so many ways because you've grown into this. And I think for anyone just starting out, it's so helpful to see you didn't let excuses get in the way. It reminds me of a supervisor in college who said, “If you want something done, give it to a busy person.” And I think in a unique way with you two being launched into parenthood nine months after you were married, you didn't have the luxury of being frivolous with your time. And you chose intentionality. And it seems like God really has blessed that and honored it.
 
Jolene Rocke: (13:55 - 14:05) Yeah and continued it to this day. You're very right. We continue to be busy. And that's still the struggle to combat that with intentional time together. So definitely.
 
Jon Rocke: (13:55 - 14:31) You talk about seasons in our lives. So, I had to have a hip replacement. So, from like 23 till I had that at 50, I couldn't take long walks. But now we get to walk together, which is a huge privilege. And so, I always think about it. I'm not into exercise to exercise, but I'm into being together. And exercise is a thing we can do together. The other thing we did in our, I guess it was on our 25th. We got a tandem bike. And we love doing our tandem bike.
 
Jolene Rocke: (14:31 - 16:21) But he wanted a tandem bike right when we got married. And I kept saying, no, I didn't really want to sit on the back and have no control. And not be able to see when I thought I should break or when I wanted to turn.
 
So, this is something that I often encourage women that are moving into the emptiness season of life. I was driving to church alone. And the Lord really impressed on me that the extreme lavish amount of love that as a homemaker I gave to my children who were now gone, I needed to transfer that to my husband.
 
I've always loved Jon first and best. But I needed to take even the time commitment. What could I do to show Jon I loved him lavishly the way I tried to my children? So that was a time thing for me. And it was like get a tandem bike. So, I was willing then to get the tandem and sit in the back. And you really do; you're called the stoker. You really do work in the back. You don't just sit there. You work. But I no longer had the control of that. And I am learning to see butterflies land on corn stalks. And I actually love our tandem bike. But God had to grow me. And that was part of my several gifts to him in emptiness period that has helped us keep a strong marriage, I think.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:21 - 16:30) And isn't that interesting how there's a gift in it for you? Like you offer this sacrifice and yet he's teaching you new things.
 
Jon Rocke: (16:21 - 16:22) I love it, yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (16:23 - 16:45) What would you two say is the biggest personality difference that you've recognized in your own marriage?
 
Jolene Rocke: (16:45 - 17:22) We just had a personality test yesterday. We have an executive team leadership at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and we had to do personality tests again. And that always is quite glaring to see how different we are. So, we're on two ends of the spectrum. But we can encourage any marriage that that can work and actually maybe be in your favor as long as you work hard at it. So, it just takes work and communication to say, you're very logical thinking, I'm very emotional, so how do we come together then in situations where I'm flustered and he's calm because he at times looks as if you don't care.
 
Jon Rocke: (17:22 - 17:53) Right, yeah, it can be that. You're highly relational. I'm definitely more process. And I think you're going to learn quickly, especially if you have kids, that all your kids are going to have different personalities. That's the weirdest thing, right? They all grew up in the same home and they're all just completely different. And so being able to help them understand kind of a little bit who they are and how that works has been a good thing that we're not the same.
 
Jolene Rocke: (17:53 - 20:01) God didn't make one good and one bad. He made all of us different, all in His image, to His glory. We all bring value to the family, and we both bring value to one another as helpmates because I'm able to sharpen Jon in areas that are blind spots for him. He's able to totally sharpen me and calm me in blind spots that are mine. So, I think in a marriage, it's just actually, it's been helpful. Differences are good.
 
Laura Dugger: (20:01 - 20:25) Oh, I love that. Differences are good. It sounds like God sanctified even your views of that. And so, getting really practical, when was a time when your differences were working against each other or caused conflict? And then how, through maturing and more time together, how do you celebrate and even lean into and appreciate those differences?
 
Jolene Rocke: (20:25 - 21:00) Well, one thing for sure is we had what we call our valley, where we learned that Psalm 23 wasn't just a funeral psalm, but it's a life psalm, and it's a way of life psalm. So, at that time, I had three family members pass away, and Jon had his family business go down. So, we watched our personalities within that in handling loss and grief. So, here's the optimist really down, and here's realist trying to be cheerleader and be up.
 
And so actually God did it, and we know without a doubt that God can work beyond personalities and bring you to a point where you can actually support one another well. But there again, it's got to be intentional. It's got to be me saying, we need to sit down now and have a meeting, talk about how you're feeling, whether you want to talk about feelings or not, because I need to know where you're at so that I can help you best.
 
Jon Rocke: (20:01 - 21:20) Yeah, and on a practical level during that time, I found myself not communicating some of what I thought was either scary or just the long drag of it. And so that was a potential way for us to disconnect because all of this is swirling from at least our livelihood standpoint, swirling in my head, and I'm not going to want to share that. And yet we realized we had to, but then those are not always easy things because Jolene, like most ladies, likes security as an important thing, right? Of just knowing what's going to happen.
 
In the end, it did make us really, again, Joe mentioned Psalm 23, and if he is our shepherd, what else could we want? We both had to end up clinging to that because our security was gone. Part of our sense of who we were, and particularly me in a family business for three generations, was gone. And so, we certainly had to make sure that our tendencies, like in communication, those kinds of things, we had to work through those during that time.
 
Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:30) Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very relatable to hear about the ups and the downs. And so, do you have any specific stories of a time when you were both in your strengths, and even though they were very different, they worked well together?
 
Jolene Rocke: (21:30 - 23:12) Yeah, I think that it's the learning what your strengths are that you may not know that God gives you at the time, and that's his grace. So, at the time, for all those years previous to the valley, Jon was the one that pushed me to communicate, and shutting down was not an option, which is what I wanted to do. So, I'd rather just not talk about it and go to bed. And he would push, push, push me to keep communicating, and that we would work through everything before the sun went down, as the Bible says.
 
Well, in the valley, it was Jon that was shutting down. And suddenly, you know, I had to be the one to push communication. So, this is something I heard on a sermon. A personality is not an excuse for sin. So that just means that I can't say, well, I'm not comfortable in conflict, so I'm not going to communicate and I'm going to shut down. No, you need to push yourself, ask the Lord for help, and go as his helpmate and say, you have to talk about it, you have to tell me, how are you doing? How are you feeling? So, I feel like it's just, it was such a beautiful valley when we look back now.
 
Laura Dugger: (23:12 - 23:25) Another previous guest had said she noticed when she was in the valley, that's when you're closest to the living water.
 
Jon Rocke: (23:13 - 24:41) Oh, absolutely. For sure. That's how creeks run, through valleys. Yeah. And I think our parenting, it was helpful for us to have both sides of our personality in parenting because I think we could address situations with our kids from different viewpoints and different ways to think about things, and those were helpful things as well.
 
But we also, during all sorts of the periods of time in our marriage, we had some little things that just reminded us. We had little words. So one was, you know, “we need to swim back.” So, you can often find yourself, because of a season of time or a season with your kids or whatever on the different islands, and we would just say, we got to swim back. And so that was one of our things that we did. And then we also had a, if we went too long, we just realized we weren't intentional about our intimacy of any kind. It was just basically, “Hey, you didn't kiss me today.” And we used to make that, “No, you didn't kiss me today.” And it was just a thing we tried to do to make sure that we had these little things that just kept us reminded. And so, they were really, they were kind of practical, just little code words for us that made a difference and got our minds back to where it needed to be.
 
Jolene Rocke: (24:41 - 24:50) Yeah, and in the busyness, that's easy to remember those little swing thoughts.
 
Laura Dugger: (24:50 - 30:17) Swim back. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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Now, back to the show. What encouragement do you have for healthy communication and healthy conflict resolution in marriage?
 
Jon Rocke: (30:19 - 31:31) God's grace. It's going to have to take time. You have to find that time together. So, I think it's all about prioritizing that time. I don't necessarily like conflict, but I know in our marriage you can't avoid it. And so, we just had to work through it right away. And so, I would say don't let time simmer conflict because that usually never makes it better.
 
Certainly, there's a sense of if there's something that's really emotional and maybe you need some space. My problem is I often don't give Jolene that space and that's hard on her, it really is, and sometimes not fair. But in the same vein, for me it felt like I didn't care if I just said, “Well, go ahead and be angry or be whatever or be upset about this or just let's not deal with it.” And she was gracious in pressing in and doing that. But I think don't let time go, just deal with it.
 
Jolene Rocke: (31:32 - 33:26) And two, the encouragement I think of is that Jon and I tell each other everything, every little thing. And we are very aware of couples that don't. And when Jon was holding back for me in that valley time, I really noticed it and I felt pretty alone. So, if you're always telling each other everything, there should be no secrets. So that just means there might be conflict then. If you're going to tell each other everything, then there might be conflict and you need to be prepared for that.
 
But that's better than me not saying anything. I sometimes say it's like a teapot, you're simmering or you're spouting. What's the perfect in the middle balance? It's really important to not simmer because you will spout eventually and then that's a harder conflict than if you just kept talking, kept telling every little thing. And so, we do tell each other every little thing.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:26 - 33:40) Well, and to go with that metaphor, if you have a release valve where that hot air can escape, it sounds like your communication has been that where you can get the water temperature back to a healthy place in the relationship.
 
Jolene Rocke: (33:40 - 33:55) Yeah, yes. And that takes work. So, I mean, honestly, what encouragement? Don't give up. Just keep going because it's worth it.
 
Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:10) Well, and I'm thinking back. Okay, so you had three kids. They're somewhat close together and you were young. So those years when all of your children were in the home, even elementary school age, that timeframe, what did that look like for communication? How did you still make sure you connected every day?
 
Jon Rocke: (33:26 - 34:31) Well, then throw in, we went to college after we had kids, which was actually, again, just God's grace and gift to us that we were able to leave town, leave the family business for a while, didn't think we were going to be involved in family business, went out to Indiana, went to school, and we didn't have anybody else but ourselves. And so that, again, was just his gift to us as young. We went in 1980, so that was two years after we were married. So, we already had Janelle at that point, and then Jamie came along soon after. And so, I had school but had to work to support. Jolene had to work and she was mom to two little ones. And so, again, I think it was just those times of making sure that we said nothing else can get in the way of us. Again, another phrase that we just had was, you know, we can get through anything together and nothing apart.
 
Jolene Rocke: (34:32 - 35:21) And that's not a flippant statement for us. That means we're trying and we're going to find the intentional time, put them to bed early, and make sure on weekends we're connecting well. And that meant sometimes driving with our kids. We'd go on drives. But that's Jon and I being able to talk. And then if they're goofing off in the back seat, it's okay. It's just fine because we actually are having talk time. Drive time has always been great communication time for us.
 
Laura Dugger: (35:21 - 35:35) That's really helpful, I think, for parents in any season. And you're talking about God's grace. So how has grace, and even forgiveness, benefited your relationship?
 
Jolene Rocke: (35:35 - 35:40) It's everything to our relationship.
 
Jon Rocke: (35:22 - 37:12) It's the only thing in everything. The parable of the unjust steward in Matthew 18 and just this idea that if you catch the enormity of your sin, then you can forgive others. And so that has been, I think, an important part of what we do because I love that whole story. Peter is asking that question, “How many times do I have to forgive somebody?” And if you think about a marriage context, well, that's a great question because my guess is it's going to be thousands upon thousands of times for whatever little or big things they are. And he's kind of like loading up. I feel that he's getting ready to say, “I've already forgiven this person six times. So, is it seven? And then after that, there's no more?” And the whole point of that is, oh, you really want to keep numbers, Peter? Here's the numbers. You've been forgiven zillions. And so, what's the little trifle amount that you're not going to forgive? And so, I'm thankful that Jolene is gracious because she's had to forgive me and continues to. We're still learning in a new season of life where now we get to work together, which to me is a really great joy. But it's also a different reality where we have a lot of work talk. Well, that's great. And we love that. But that can't dominate everything either. And so that's another one of those things that we have to figure out how to carve out our time away from work. Even though we enjoy working together and it's really fun, it's a new thing. That can't get in the way of us either.
 
Jolene Rocke: (37:13 - 40:14) There's got to be grace on both parts that now as I look at him as a boss also. And my husband, you know, I need to give a lot of grace to realize he's working within a momentum around a team and a leadership. But then as he comes home, and I'm very fully aware now of what a hat change that means for a man. That means that he's taking off his hat now and becoming my husband at home. And so, it's grace on both sides as he sees me working even under him or with him as a team. But it's a lot of grace and forgiveness over the years because in the early years as you're raising children, there might be unmet expectations is something I wrote down because I feel like as I think back to this pursuer of God and who I married and I remember those early years thinking, well, wow, he's not leading in devotions in the family. And I'm kind of struggling to find, I need to, as the mom then, pick that up and make sure we're doing with the children some family devotions. Well, that can create controversy. It can be that I would be upset, but I needed to forgive him for the fact that he didn't mean to do that and abdicate that responsibility. He just didn't know. And so, there's so much about being graceful as a wife to say, okay, I understand. That wasn't maybe how you were raised, or you didn't see that modeled in the home. But this is what I would desire for our family. And so, you just keep working and you keep forgiving because we've been forgiven so much, as Jon said. So, we know that. And I think the other key thing then with forgiveness becomes no record keeping, just as love is in 1 Corinthians 13. It doesn't keep the record of wrongs. I don't need to sit around with my time and in my brain and think about how much I've forgiven Jon. I need to think about the fact that God's forgiven so much in me, and he has to forgive me all the time. So, you're on this equal footing with forgiveness rather than trying to harbor a record of wrongs.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:14 - 40:40) Well, and I think you bring up examples for how it works in our families as well with children. And so, it's clear you two have such a solid marriage and you also have a thriving relationship with your adult children and your grandchildren and all their families. So, I think you just have a lot that you could teach us about raising a family as well. What are you so thankful that you did when your kids were living at home that you're now getting to see the payoff as they're adults?
 
Jon Rocke: (40:16 - 41:43) We literally grew up with our kids. So sorry for our kids that they had to, you know, grow up with their mom and dad. But that's been a lot of fun too because we did a lot of play. Again, these are just little things for us, these little words. So, as the kids were young, we used to, something that bothered them is I would tell them pretty plainly that I love mom most. And so, kids will always try to drive a wedge between mom and dad. That's just part of the fallen nature of kids. And so, we really communicated early. Our kids will tell you that was a hard lesson for them to learn that they didn't quite understand at that age, right? But they've really come to appreciate that in their own marriages. And then the other thing that we said was we choose you second. So, they knew we choose each other first because you're going to be gone someday and mom's not. And so, but we will always choose you second. So, friends were not a higher priority or social or hobby or anything. You know, the kids were always knew they were second. And so our kids are scattered all across, although we have Jamie and Jonathan here, one family here in Morton that we love to live life with. The others are gone, but I think we're still close in a lot of ways from that.
 
Jolene Rocke: (41:45 - 45:27) Yeah, I think we're a close family because we have stuck together through not just the ups, but the downs, but we're fun loving. Jon and I like games. We like to do stuff, and we like to go places. We prioritized vacation when they were little so that we were all together in an intentional environment that was away from home. And so, we were together, they enjoyed going to Florida every year and it was always what we called just happenstances that were so adverse. It wasn't your ideal. And so, we did not have ideal things happen on any trip, actually, that we go on. So, what we decided to call them is adventures. So, we intentionally took adverse situations, whether that's a flat tire, going to Florida with all the kids and it's the middle of the night and we're all sitting at a gas station on the curb waiting for the next tire to get fixed. It's just, we just always called them adventures and I'm not sorry for that. That's something our kids are passing on to their kids when things happen. Our son in particular, Jordan, his family seems to have a lot of adventures, like Jon and I have had. And that's what they call them to their children. So, I'm not sorry for the word adventure. Jon taught me a saying that he used to say, you love your children, even if you don't like them or you will lose them. And that was really important in the teenage years. When one of our children was struggling in junior high, I knew even if I didn't like the way this one was acting, I needed to just keep loving them as scripture says, right? Not if they're perfect, but all the time. And so, we didn't lose her through that time, I think because there was so much intentional loving beyond the liking. The other thing that I would just mention with that to encourage any, any mom or dad, I picked up the book, The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and had this daughter read it with me so that we can learn, how do we love each other? Well, through this time when it feels like we don't really like each other that well. So, well, wow. I had no idea. It was physical touch for you. And I, I thought it was the acts of service. And you would notice that I picked up your room because I knew you had a hard day in a test at school. Well, there was never any knowledge or awareness that I did that for her. But whenever I put my arms around her and gave her a giant hug and wouldn't let her go until she melted in my arms, I realized, yes, that's what she, that's how I can love her best.
 
Laura Dugger: (45:27 - 45:50) That is awesome to hear that story. It is helpful to have actionable things that we can replicate. And so, I am going to link in the show notes to a few of our episodes that may be beneficial. If people want to take that concept a step further, Dr. Gary Chapman has been a previous guest. I'll link to those. And then also Katie Mueller talked about traveling with your family and the lessons that the Lord teaches his children about traveling in the Bible and how that applies to us. That's great. So, if you're willing, will you share anything more about the honeymoon? I'm so curious now.
 
Jon Rocke: (45:27 - 46:35) We will. I feel like we're taking too much time here.
 
Jolene Rocke: (46:35 - 46:36) I don't know, but well, we knew that this was setting the tone for marriage as far as adventures.
 
Jon Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) But well, the very first off we, we got on a plane. So, we got married on a Sunday and we were flying out down to Florida on Sunday night. We got to Atlanta where we were supposed to connect to another plane. We were supposed to go to Fort Myers, Florida and there had been a storm and, and they were rushing to get us on the right flights or to get us to the next flight. And they put us on the wrong plane. You know, this was back in the day where that could happen. Couldn't happen today, but put us on the wrong plane. We ended up in Melbourne, Florida at midnight last flight of the night. You know, we're newlyweds. We're supposed to be, you know, on our honeymoon. They put us up at a Holiday Inn Express with the crew and said, you know, we'll get you out a flight. You have to be up at 4 a.m. And so, you know, I was, our first night was not necessarily what you would, you know, call the most romantic night that we could have. And then do you want to tell the second story of our honeymoon?
 
Jolene Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) The canoe trip.
 
Jon Rocke: (46:37 - 46:37) Yeah.
 
Jolene Rocke: (46:37 - 47:28) The canoe trip is, I have such bad allergies to many things. And so, Jon knew that because we tried to go horseback riding and I thought I'd be okay because it was outdoors, but the dander on the horse made me just blow up into a big ball on my face. And so, he realized how much I have a problem with allergies, but we decided to go canoeing in a very narrow mangrove swamp. That was really depleted in, in its depth that day. And so, we were canoeing along, but we, we got into the side of the mangrove trees and out came a Hornets, Hornets out of this giant nest and stung me all over my back.
 
Jon Rocke: (47:28 - 47:50) And so Jon went into, I'm like thinking that my six day, you know, marriage is over. My wife, who's so allergic, we're half hour out on our journey and I'm, she's like going to die on the spot. Cause I figured if she's so allergic to animals, then this many, you know, bee stings or wasp stings, she's, you know, she's dead.
 
Jolene Rocke: (47:52 - 48:12) So he jumps, jumps out. Yeah. First, the truth is he took my top off and started taking mud from the bottom of the creek and, just plasters me with mud on my back. And then he jumps out of the canoe and starts running the, the canoe. Cause it was pretty shallow.
 
Jon Rocke: (48:12 - 48:31) I decided it was going to be quicker to get her back in time. I figured I had about 30 minutes, you know, to, to try to get her to some medical attention. And so, yeah, so I'm running the canoe back instead of paddling it. Cause I knew I could get faster. Well, then I cut my foot on a shoal and we're a mess.
 
Jolene Rocke: (48:31 - 48:37) I mean, he had it. What? Like six-inch stitches. So, we ended up in the ER here.
 
Jon Rocke: (48:37 - 48:38) Yeah.
 
Jolene Rocke: (48:38 - 48:52) Both of us with me, with stings, Jon, with a cut. And, and that was just the start of the honeymoon that we called a giant adventure adventure since it wasn't great.
 
Jon Rocke: (48:52 - 48:55) It's been a 44-year adventure.
 
Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:15) You did start with quite the adventure. I love that. And I think the husbands’ listening will appreciate, of course you took their top off first.
 
Jon Rocke: (49:03 - 49:04) That's right.
 
Jolene Rocke: (49:05 - 49:07) It was a little embarrassing.
 
Jon Rocke: (49:08 - 49:10) It was a good thing. Nobody else.
 
Jolene Rocke: (49:10 - 49:15) Nobody else.
 
Laura Dugger: (49:15 - 49:25) Sorry. I had to tease on that part, but through various seasons, how did you prioritize one another above your kids, your career and your own families of origin?
 
Jon Rocke: (49:25 - 50:35) We just knew we had to have time. So, a couple of things. I mean, we had a fortunate built in mechanism too, to take trips together. So, within our family business, we had conferences and such that we had to attend. And so, we made that a priority that we were going to do those together. I wasn't going to just go by myself. And so, a couple of times a year, and now that we're working together, it can feel like life blurs between everything. So, while we're at home, we're still talking about work and we're still dealing with ministry. And the other thing is with our kids away, a lot of our trip time is spent with our kids. So, we have to make that, that's gotta be a priority, but we realized we still need just our time away. and when we got, we went down to Florida and we just said, okay, no work talk for these five days, you know, no work talk. And it was pretty fun because most of the time Jolene broke that rule. And I would say, wait a minute, no work talk.
 
Jolene Rocke: (50:36 - 50:36) It's true.
 
Jon Rocke: (50:37 - 51:09) It's very true. But those, so trips were a big thing for us, and they don't have to be a big deal trip, but a weekend away to break the routine. You know, the example of that was, that's why God created festivals and holidays were to break routine and to have a stop in our everyday lives. And so, he knew we needed that to reconnect with him. Well, we know we need that in our marriages is to break the routine.
 
Jolene Rocke: (51:10 - 52:17) Very intentionally. Jon was wise enough to know we needed that as even as young as he was. Can you imagine the volumes of love that that spoke to me, that he wanted me to go with him on the trips. So that meant so much to me. And it still does today because he always wants me to go with him. And then I, I just have over the years, like when the kids were at home, that was days of rest for me when he was in meetings. But as I started growing too, as a person and not needing as much rest, I also would go into all the meetings because I liked the learning. But even as we went through college, like I just was always a part of the learning. And, and I liked that, but Jon included me. That said a lot to me.
 
Laura Dugger: (52:18 - 52:25) And I love your companionship, how you prioritize that. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one rather than start to grow parallel or even worse, start to grow apart from one another?
 
Jon Rocke: (52:18 - 52:47) Yeah, I think find things to do together. That's part of how even the biking, the tandem thing came about. Cause if we went out on bikes on our individual bikes, then I'm like, I'm wanting to run ahead. Well, you know, and then, and she's like, you know, you're not getting very much exercise or whatever the case may be. But then on a tandem, we could accomplish everything together. And so, finding some of those things.
 
Jolene Rocke: (52:47 - 54:56) So there's seasons of time when you're raising your children, like that, Jon was biking by himself and with some other men in a fast pace for extreme exercise. And I was doing my thing. And so, I'm not saying that hobbies apart from one another are negative, but for us, they've been mostly together. And so that just means that even there was a period that yes, Jon would go out golfing, not in excess, but when our kids were around and little, I think I was communicating even in that, that you don't just go off golfing every Saturday and leave your wife with the kids on a Saturday because you now that's your day off work. No, it's, we never get a day off work. So, you need to kick in at home too. So, there was this balance, I think is a really good word for how do you, how do you do like even individual hobbies and exercise even, but then mostly we're always trying to figure out how we can do things together. So, taking a back seat, literally on a tandem bike and knowing that that was going to help our marriage to be together. I also said recently now in a decade ago, I will learn how to golf. And so that, that just meant, again, I have no, no interest that much in golfing. I thought I loved riding the car around and being outside, but now it's like, yes, I will learn to golf if that means that that's another hobby and a sport and an activity that we can do together. So, we started a Friday night golf time, just Jon and I, it's a date night of golf and Dairy Queen supper. We call it Dairy Queen supper because we just don't eat supper, but we eat Dairy Queen after we go. So there again, there's just like, what are, what can we do together? And we're still doing date nights because it's just, we actually are really good friends still.
 
Jon Rocke: (54:57 - 55:51) Well, I think like I say, every season has been different for us. There was a time where kids were intense and Joe was a phenomenal mom and, was totally engaged in that. And you're in your career phase too. And so, all those things are competing. Well, then we've come back in the last five years and now we work together. So that's a different whole different dynamic. And so that's why we needed, you know, yeah, we need a golf and Dairy Queen night because we just need to get away from the intensity of our work relationship, you know, and take that break on our tandems. We usually ride for breakfast. So, most things have to do with food. It's not about exercise. It's about how to eat. So that's kind of just part of what we do.
 
Laura Dugger: (55:51 - 56:19) I love it though. That's an interest for all people. It's something that we have to do multiple times a day. Well, what do you want to leave us with? Whether it's a challenge or scripture, it can be anything, but how would you like to wind down our time together today?
 
Jolene Rocke: (56:19 - 56:30) I'm going to just say to encourage everyone. Our marriage has taken compromise and it's taken communication and it pays off in the end.
 
Jon Rocke: (56:19 - 57:11) You know, Ephesians 5 is really an important understanding that it's submitting to each other. The idea of wives submit to your husband, you're not catching the whole picture of that. If that's what your focus is, because it's husband loves you, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And so, and it starts the whole section off with submit to one another. And so, we have to be just intentional and committed. One of my favorite sayings is from Augustine, who says, when he was in prayer one time says to God, “Command what you will, but give what you command.” And so, when I think about our marriage, that's what grace is all about. Yes, it takes intentionality and commitment, but that only comes by his grace.
 
Jolene Rocke: (57:11 - 57:55) And one other thing that I thought of is that we always taught our kids to remember whose they are. And that just means that if you do that within a marriage too, and you're remembering that you're the Lord's, you're made in his image, then you relate and you will love the other one better. Even as you know your identity in Christ first, you will love your mate better.
 
Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:05) Amen. And you too may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Jon Rocke: (57:56 - 58:07) You know, I just say submission is a good thing. It's not associated that way, but in a marriage it's such a good thing.
 
Jolene Rocke: (58:08 - 59:13) So that's both submitting to each other, not just the wife being clamped down. But our savvy sauce would be that sacrifice and submission are good things. They're not bad words. So, in our experience, a savvy sauce for our 44-year-old marriage is that sacrifice and submission have been very good things on both of our parts.
 
Laura Dugger: (59:13 - 59:20) Well, you clearly live this out, and you've been great role models to Mark and to me and our family. You love one another with such an intensity, and you love your Lord that way, and you love your children that way in your community. And I just see the way that He's had this ripple out from being intentional in the most key important parts of life, and that He's really blessed you in that, but He's also blessed all of us around you. So, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Thank you so much for being my guest.
 
Jolene Rocke: (59:20 - 59:22) It's been so great to be here with you. Thanks for asking, Laura.
 
Jon Rocke: (59:13 - 59:27) Yeah, it's been a privilege for us just to take the time to reflect again and realize the challenges, but really just celebrate what God has done through His grace in us and our marriage. So, thanks.
 
Laura Dugger: (59:27 - 1:03:10) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach Your Children To Do The Same with Monica Irvine (Episode 281)

281. Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach Your Children To Do The Same with Monica Irvine
 
Proverbs 20:11 NIV “Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?”
 
Ephesians 4:32a AMP “Be kind and helpful to one another,”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Monica Irvine, President and creator of The Etiquette Factory, LLC, is a master motivator and dedicated instructor who loves to help children and adults see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette, mastering professionalism and excelling in social skills. As a Certified Etiquette Instructor and working in the hospitality industry for 24 years, Mrs. Irvine specializes in etiquette and professional instruction to help ensure the success of each individual both personally and professionally.
 
Mrs. Irvine is the published author of three books on Etiquette and one book on Scheduling including: Etiquette for Beginners, Etiquette Intermediate, Etiquette Masters and A Schedule Makes for a Happy Family, in addition to authoring several monthly columns in national publications such as Everything Knoxville, The Homeschool Handbook and the Homeschool Magazine.
 
Mrs. Irvine is a national speaker, speaking to thousands of parents, educators and children every year.
 
Residing in Knoxville, TN with her husband, Mrs. Irvine spends her free time playing tennis, running and enjoying her family of three boys and a granddaughter.
 
You may contact Mrs. Irvine at monica@TheEtiquetteFactory.com  or via her website at www.TheEtiquetteFactory.com.
Rise Up Parenting
FUNdamentals 4 Kids
Life Skills Essentials
 
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What are some red flags we can identify in our lives if we are too busy and what wisdom do you recommend instead of our overstuffed schedules?
As parents, why must we proactively teach these qualities to our children, rather than just instruct them in a moment of correction?
Will you share stories of ways the Holy Spirit has nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous? 
 
Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:
Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
 
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:10)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:19) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.
 
My guest for today is the charming Monica Irvine. She is president and creator of The Etiquette Factory. She's a master motivator and dedicated instructor who just loves helping children and adults to see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette. She also loves to help people master professionalism and excel in social skills.
 
So, she's going to give us insight into all of these ideas and share stories today for ways that we can actually seek the Lord and love others well and value people through the proper use of etiquette.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.
 
Monica Irvine: (2:19 - 2:20) Thank you. Thanks for having me, Laura.
 
Laura Dugger: (2:20 - 5:41) Well, I'm so excited to get a chat with you today, but let's just begin here. I'm so fascinated because you were born and raised in the South. Is that right?
 
Monica Irvine: Well, yes, Tennessee. Absolutely consider myself Southern.
 
Laura Dugger: I love it. And I grew up in the Midwest and got to live in the South for a few years. And I was very struck by the difference in manners. And I'm just curious if manners and etiquette were intentionally taught to you, both in your family and then just kind of in your Southern culture around you.
 
Monica Irvine: (2:20 - 5:32) Well, yes. So, when I think about being raised in the South, I think and maybe my mom and my grandmas were a little different. But what I would describe my upbringing is very particular, meaning everything was made special.
 
And my parents and my grandparents took a lot of pride in making things beautiful and lovely. And so, of course, my mom cooked every night. But like at my home growing up and we did not have a lot of money, just know that my parents struggled.
 
But my mother would never put a ketchup bottle on the table or a mayonnaise jar. Everything had to be put in little bowls with little spoons. And it's funny because my friends that I have today, I get given little spoons for birthdays and occasions because my friends all know how much I love little dainty things.
 
But, you know, and some people, you know, might think that's a little ridiculous. But I'll tell you something. I don't know that we need to eat that way every night, seven nights a week.
 
But it made dinner time feel special. And even the way my mother and my grandmothers kept their house, everything had its place. It was not messy.
 
We had clean homes. And I think it also just helped me be proud of my home. I mean, once again, we did not have a lot of money, but my friends thought my home was so nice.
 
Well, the reason it was so nice is because my mother kept such care of it. And so, I was raised with a lot of cousins and live close to both of my grandparents. And so even the outside of their homes, both sets of grandparents, everything was beautiful.
 
And so there was a lot of pride in who we are, how we presented ourselves. But you're going to laugh at this. So, my mom, my dad tells me this story that right after my mom and dad got married, my dad came home from work one day and my mom was ironing.
 
You know, she'd spend a whole day ironing every week or half a day. And my mom was ironing my dad's underwear. And my mom's name is Janice.
 
And he was like, “Janice, honey, what are you doing?” And “I know just ironing, Bob.” And he's like, “Babe, you don't need to iron my underwear.”
 
But, you know, the thing is, that to my mother and my grandmothers being a good wife and being a good mother meant making sure everyone in the family looked nice, that their clothes were clean, that the home was clean, that there was good food on the table. And that was part of their identity, of this is what it means to be a good wife and mother. And I love that about my upbringing.
 
Laura Dugger: (5:33 - 5:41) And do you have any reasons why you think that's changed a little bit over the years?
 
Monica Irvine: (5:42 - 8:34) Yeah, I think we've gotten lazy. Well, no, I just I think there you know, there's balance, right? There's when I look back, I can't really remember my mom playing with me.
 
But now, listen, I don't feel like I missed out, but I do recognize it. But I guess even as a little girl, sure, I would have loved my mom to play with me. But that's just not in my mind what moms did.
 
Moms cleaned house and made everything and cooked your meal. And so, I do. I'm grateful that as a society, we have adjusted somewhat.
 
Sometimes I believe too much but have adjusted in going. What's the most important things? And because I'm a big believer in playing with our children and our grandchildren and creating memories.
 
But now my family, my parents and we worked a lot together. Like if we were if the yard needed raking, it wasn't kids go rake the yard. Mom, dad, kids were in the yard raking.
 
If a car needed to be washed, it wasn't go wash the car. We were all out there washing the car. So, I think that's why I don't feel like I missed out because my family did so many things together.
 
Whereas today we're so separated. No parents give their children and babies phones and iPads so they'll just be quiet so they can get their important work done. Like grocery shopping or cooking.
 
And I just think that instead of teaching our children how to self-soothe and self-entertain and how to creatively play even by yourself, sometimes we just always believe there has to be a babysitter to distract our children from wanting mom and dad. It's just I you know, this could be a whole other talk, Laura, but I just you know, I see it. It breaks my heart sometimes on the lack of how often families work together, play together and do things together.
 
But now, you know, dad's watching his game in this room. Mom is in another room, maybe on her computer doing social media. The kids are in their rooms on their games.
 
And I see a lack of family unity. So once again, even though maybe my mom and dad didn't play with us and I'm glad we've shifted with that thought process. Still, we were a united family.
 
Laura Dugger: (8:35 - 8:56) I love that. And the Lord has clearly given you a passion for that instilling that in others. And He invited you into a journey that eventually led to The Etiquette Factory, which is the work that you get to do today.
 
So, can you share the impetus for that and what that journey looked like for you?
 
Monica Irvine: (8:56 - 13:54) I will. I love my company. I feel like it's just yet another beautiful adventure the Lord has allowed me to be on in my life.
 
And so, I feel like I'm just outside looking in at this beautiful little business that has allowed me to minister to children and adults in need. So, years ago, I was homeschooling our kids. I was homeschooling our youngest son at the time, and we were studying the life of President George Washington.
 
And I just kind of stumbled upon this list. It was called George Washington's Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. It is a beautiful list of 110 chivalry skills.
 
And apparently, President Washington was encouraged to focus on some chivalry as was part of a formal education in those days. He found a French book that had these list of chivalry kind of considerations, and he copied them. He hand copied them, of course.
 
And we have that list of 110 chivalry skills in President Washington's handwriting. But as I started reading over this list, the Lord penetrated my heart. I just I was like, these are so beautiful.
 
I mean, some of them were kind of funny. Some of them were. It's not polite to remove lice from your companion in public, which I think is good to know.
 
But most of the beautiful chivalry skills were very applicable to today. And I was like I want my son to memorize these skills. So, we started memorizing one Washington skill a week.
 
And because they were written in that old English, you know, sometimes we were like, what does this mean? And it just I just decided for my son's sake, who was nine at the time, I wanted to just kind of make my own version. But what was so a light bulb moment for me is as we started making manners part of our daily discussion in school, I noticed a change in my child's behavior and my son would be like, “Mom, let's do another one. What's the next one? Let's do one more.”
 
And I found that so fascinating because, as you know, most of us parents, when we teach manners, we're teaching it in the moment, usually correcting bad behavior. It's not that that's our goal. It's just that that's when we think about it.
 
Our child says, or does something that's not the most polite, and all of a sudden we're going, “Oh, honey, no, honey, you can't say that. That's not polite.” And then we make the correction and then we teach the skill.
 
And what I learned and realized is that so often that's when I was teaching my children manners in the moment of correcting. And what I've learned about that is when we're being corrected, whether you're three years old or 30 years old, we harden our heart typically because it's self-preservation. You know, we stiffen up when someone's like, “Monica, you really shouldn't have.” I'm like, whoa.
 
And it's just because of our own pride. We don't like being called out and neither do our children, even when we're doing it gently and politely. It's still a correction.
 
And so, what I found is when our heart is hardened, as the scripture says, it's not the best time to absorb information. It's the opposite of being humble. To be humble means to be teachable.
 
To be hardened means to not be teachable. So, when we have a hardened heart, it's hard for us to absorb things of the spirit, which all truth comes from God. So, anything that is lovely of good rapport is of God.
 
So, when we're teaching our children to be kind and to have kind considerations for others, those are God's truths and God's truths cannot seep into the soul of our heart unless our heart is soft. And so that is what happened is I was like, today we're going to learn how to use our napkin properly. Or today we're going to learn how to apologize.
 
But how do you make it sound sincere and how do you be sincere when you don't really feel it? And so, as we started just working on one skill at a time, the conversations were typically beautiful. Parts were changed and behavior ended up changing.
 
And so really, that's what then later became The Etiquette Factory.
 
Laura Dugger: (13:55 - 14:20) I love that because I think it gives our children confidence because then they're equipped and prepared and understand what's expected of them in different situations or what can bless others in the way they act. But then I'm curious, you gave a few examples of those. Can you think of any of George Washington's chivalry lines that would still apply today?
 
Monica Irvine: (14:21 - 19:07) Yes, well, so I'm not quoting, I'm summarizing. So, for instance, one is it is not polite to hum or sing in the presence of others that would cause distraction. And so basically it's not polite to draw attention to ourselves but also draw attention or interrupt other people's day life when we haven't been invited to do so.
 
So let me give you this definition we use for etiquette. So, at The Etiquette Factory, etiquette is helping those around us to feel valued and to feel comfortable. Well, if I'm sitting there humming along, but the person beside me really doesn't want to hear my humming, then I might be causing that person to feel uncomfortable.
 
Same thing, you know, whenever I start off teaching a class, because usually when everyone thinks of manners, they think of table manners. Of course, there's so much more. But I use this example.
 
I say, well, if I were to come to your home and sit down and I started eating like a pig in the presence of your family, I mean, I'm chewing with my mouth open. I'm making a smacking my lips. I'm taking too big of bites and food is falling in my lap or I'm making a mess on the table.
 
Or I eat so fast that I am finished eating, getting up to leave. And you're just on your third bite of food. Well, any of those behaviors, I would be sending a message.
 
And that message is, look, I'm here for one person and that person is myself. I came to fill up my belly because I'm hungry. And beyond that, I really don't care.
 
I don't care if I'm making you uncomfortable. I don't care if I'm grossing you out. I don't care if you actually wanted to talk to me because I just came here to eat and I'm out of here.
 
You see, we don't realize it, but a lack of chivalry is called selfishness. A lack of chivalry is inward focused. When we focus outwardly on what message am I sending to those around me?
 
Am I sending a message of love and care and value? That is etiquette. I get emailed all the time and message like, “OK, Monica, I've got this shower I'm putting on.
 
And my daughter is not going to invite her work friends to the wedding. But is it OK if we invite all of them to a wedding shower?” And they'll go, so what's the etiquette rule?
 
Well, there is no etiquette rule about that, except etiquette is about helping those around us to feel valued. And so that's how I answer every question. I'm like, well, let me ask you if you were invited to a wedding shower, where you're asking her friends to shower your daughter with gifts and love to celebrate her wedding.
 
But yet those friends were not valued enough to invite to the wedding. How do you think it would make them feel? And so that's what the answer is with etiquette.
 
Now, there's exceptions. In fact, that case, that's a real email I got. And she ended up having the shower because her daughter went and told her co-worker who offered to give her a wedding shower.
 
“You know what? I thought that is so thoughtful. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that. But we're having a very small, intimate wedding, you know, for financial reasons and intimacy reasons. And so, I just don't feel comfortable inviting people to bring gifts for me and knowing that we're just we're not going to be able to invite everyone to the wedding.”
 
And that co-worker said, “We don't care. We knew you were having a small wedding. We want to celebrate you.”
 
And so, you know, you can there be exceptions, but a lady and a gentleman always try to be very aware of those unspoken messages. And that guides our conversation, our answers, our actions. And that's what we teach children and adults to do at The Etiquette Factory.
 
Laura Dugger: (19:07 - 21:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook  by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
 
I loved, this was a few months back, but we came to a homeschool convention, and I loved your talk on purposeful parenting. One thing that you said, just I think backing it up and looking at our family in general, you said, “If we're too busy to do the most important things, we're too busy. Stop allowing the adversary to tempt us to remain too busy.”
 
So, Monica, what wisdom can you share for maybe red flags that can help us identify when we're too busy to focus on the most important things, and what do you recommend instead of overstuffing our schedules and our lives?
 
Monica Irvine: (21:18 - 26:23) You know, that's a great question. Those are good questions that every family should ask themselves. You know, I think that if we are to strive to focus on the most important things, step number one is, has mom and dad identified the most important things?
 
Because if you don't know what your goal is, then you're not going to as easily recognize when something is interfering with your goal. So, for instance, maybe mom and dad sits down and says, “Well, our number one goal is to make sure that our children know Jesus Christ. And so, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing our best to help our children know who He is?”
 
Well, and so a family might decide, well, we want to have daily scripture study and daily family and individual prayer. We want to make it a priority to be at church so that we can worship on the Sabbath, but also so that we can meet together with other like-minded Christians and minister to one another as we're taught by the Savior. That's important for us to do.
 
And perhaps we want to learn to do as the Savior does. And that's why we're going to learn of His attributes and try to follow in His footsteps and be a family of service. So, let's just say those are our four of the most important things.
 
If that's our goal, then hopefully mom and dad could recognize when we're starting to stumble off the path that leads to our goal. For instance, I can't tell you how many parents have come up to me after they hear me speak on this topic and say, “Monica, I wish I had heard you say this 10 years ago. But we got sucked up into the what the world has to offer, and we started allowing our children to play competitive sports on Sunday. And so, we stopped going to church years ago because there was always a championship game on Sunday morning and always another tournament. And we wanted our children to have, you know, college opportunities.”
 
And there's nothing wrong with college opportunities unless that college opportunity interferes with our most important goal. And so that's why first mom and dad have to decide what is the most important, because then it's easier to recognize when we are being tempted by the adversary to focus on what the world is trying to offer us.
 
And the world offers us shiny things that tempt our human nature to want to be popular and loved by all and wealthy. And so, we just have to always go back to our goals. You know, I've got families that say, “I wish we had eaten dinner together more often. But we allowed our children to be so scheduled that there was not one night or there was only one night a week that we actually sat down at the table together.”
 
You know, parents. You will regret that. And you can't take back these precious, very short years that you have your children under your roof in your home.
 
And you will be someone like me one day where all of my kids are graduating and grandchildren and all you live for is your children to come visit and your children to come have dinner. And so, when you allow the world to creep in and be more important than spending time with your family, time with the Lord, time on good and lovely things, you will regret it. And I just think that probably every year come January, mom and dad should sit down and go, let's look at last year.
 
What were we missing from our family schedule? What do we need to reevaluate whether that is the most important thing? And so that's something I think all of us have to do on a regular basis.
 
Laura Dugger: (26:24 - 27:20) I think you're hitting on something profound there, that reflection with the Lord or with our spouse. I think we have no excuse because if there is no spouse in the picture, we always have the Lord. But to be intentional, to take that time, maybe on a Sabbath and go through a few questions and reflect back.
 
I think that could save us from a lot of regret. So, I really appreciate that response. And going back to etiquette, then you've taught us that it is a learned behavior.
 
This isn't something that our children will just naturally pick up. It's best to do in times where their hearts are soft, so proactive if possible. But I'd love to know in your own life, when were times that the Holy Spirit nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?
 
Monica Irvine: (27:21 - 32:56) Oh, goodness. Okay, well, to me, I think miraculous is seeing the Lord's divine hand in our life. I see the miracle of the Lord every day in my life.
 
But probably most often is when I kneel down at the end of a day, I repent daily because I need to daily. And it's always a little nervous because I pray and I ask the Lord, as sometimes I know what I need to repent of. I know that I recognized I stumbled that day on something, but sometimes I just I pray and I say, “Lord, you know, just help.”
 
If something needs to be brought to my mind that I need to repent of and that I need to do better, would you bring it to my mind at this time? And it wasn't that long ago that the Lord brought to my mind something that I had gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't feel like it was wrong, but it was wrong. And so, etiquette, one of the etiquette skills I teach everyone is that it's not polite for us to gossip.
 
A lady and a gentleman always draw attention to the lovely and wonderful things that other people do. Now, if there's a safety issue, that's different, but I'm just talking about we don't share negative things about other people. And so, it's something I teach every year, all year long.
 
But I feel like I've done so much better than I did twenty-five years ago when the Lord really chastised me one time for gossiping. But in the last couple of months, I had gotten in the habit of sharing with my husband. So sometimes, you know, when you share with your spouse that you kind of feel like that's a safe place that the same rules don't apply because you and your spouse kind of talk about everything.
 
And so, I was in the habit of sharing with my spouse something that I was worried about that another person in our family did. But I was constantly going, “Oh, I don't like that. They do this and I don't like that. They do this and I'm worried about it.” And I actually was worried about it. But I just was constantly kind of highlighting these things that I didn't like that someone in our family did.
 
Well, one night I was praying and asked the Lord to bring to my mind and the Lord brought that to my mind. And it was kind of like he said, “Monica, don't you remember that? If you're worried about someone. Instead of sharing those negative things, even with Charles, my husband, what would be more effective is if you prayed and asked me to bless that person, to help that person, you know, in the ways that they need help and ask me to help, you know, of ways that you could be a better example to that person. But you don't need to constantly draw attention because it's starting to make you be negative towards this person.”
 
And I just like right when the Lord said that to me, I was embarrassed. I was like, “Monica, that. Yeah. Like, how do you not know that? That you should know better than that.”
 
Well, so immediately I repented and I apologized to the Lord and I and I started doing what he asked me to do. And within just a couple of days, like I started just noticing all of the wonderful, lovely things that this person is and does. And so, just to me, that is miraculous and it happens all the time.
 
And if I'm humble enough to repent and to listen to the Lord, because the Lord wants to help us and he wants us to strive to be like him. But we've got to ask where we need to be corrected. And so, I teach etiquette, I teach we don't gossip.
 
And then lo and behold, I had kind of gotten myself in another trap again. You know, and I just I think it's a miracle what happens when we listen to the Lord. He immediately turns our mind to good, lovely, beautiful things and allows us to be a vessel of light instead of vessel of darkness.
 
And we can be that vessel of darkness just right inside our own marriage, even though we think that's kind of a safe place to maybe be a little looser with our tongue. So, there's one example.
 
Laura Dugger: (32:57 - 33:26) I love that. And I remember you also explaining whenever you get a thought in your head that you don't want to do, it's likely 100 percent from God. So, can you share a couple specific stories of times that that was the Holy Spirit telling you something that you didn't maybe want to do, but you obeyed?
 
I'm remembering something about a grocery store and another time separately about a phone call. Yeah.
 
Monica Irvine: (33:26 - 40:29) OK, well, I'll tell about the phone call just because it's less sad. So, yeah, one time there was this lady and she was just kind of investigating our church and starting to come to our church and kind of fill it out. So, I had just met her and I found out that her what led her to come looking for God is her husband was an addict and she was just at her wits end and their marriage and family was falling apart.
 
And so, she came looking for the for help for the Lord. And so, I learned a little bit about her story. I ended up taking her to one of those celebrate recovery places at another church because I knew they had a wonderful program.
 
And so, I had interacted with her a couple of times. I probably had only known her about a month when one night I was running late to take my kids to youth on Wednesday night and I was cooking some spaghetti and I was just, you know, cooking that spaghetti at the stove. And all of a sudden I had a thought come into my mind, “Call her.”
 
And, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, I do need to call her. I need to call and check on her. I will, you know, after church tonight.
 
And so, I, you know, kept cooking that spaghetti. And the second time the Spirit, because that's who it was talking to me, because that's who tells us to do good things. Not us, but God.
 
The Spirit said, “Monica, call her.” But I was running late and I was trying to get my kids fed and I was like, I will call her as soon as I get the kids fed, you know, drop them off at church and then I'll call her, you know, and so I really meant to call her. But I.
 
Finally, a third time, and it seems to always take me three times before I realize, OK, he means now. And so, a third time it was like “Monica call.” And so, it was so strong.
 
And I, I know it's the Lord, but I, I just turned the stove off. I went into my bedroom, got my phone out, dialed her number. And as it was ringing, she picked up the phone and all I heard was just some quiet sobbing.
 
And she couldn't speak. And I, you know, I said her name. I said, “Hey, so and so it's Monica. I just. I see that you're upset. I just wanted to call and check on you. In fact, the Lord insisted that I call and check on you.”
 
And then her, you know, her crying just continued. It wasn't until, you know, she had calmed down and she just said, you know, “Monica, I had been praying and just asking the Lord to just show me that, you know, show me that you care that this is happening to me.” Something like that.
 
And, you know, I, I, in that moment, my stomach kind of did that little knot because I knew how close I had come to just not calling. And sure, I could have called her an hour later. It would have been at least an hour later and maybe, you know, it would have mattered.
 
But the Lord knew that it mattered right in that moment. She needed an answer. She needed to know that the Lord was listening.
 
And I've learned that in my life, that whenever we get a thought that comes into our mind and that thought is to do something good, like calling someone, you all is a good thing. Visiting someone, writing a letter to someone. Those are good things.
 
And all good comes from the Lord. And sometimes I wonder, does the Lord trust me? Does he know I'll respond when the stakes are high?
 
You know, sometimes I think as we continue to learn how to hear the spirit, we have to practice. Oh, that was the spirit. And probably if you're like me, I've learned a lot about the spirit by not listening.
 
And then later going, “Oh, yeah, Lord, I did miss that. You tried. You tried to warn me, or you tried to get me to do that. And I dismissed it.”
 
But so, you all I just think it takes practice and I'm still practicing. But I do believe that especially when it's something that we don't really want to do or we think we don't have time. And I just realize I felt the Lord going, “Monica, do you not think I know you're cooking spaghetti? Do you not think I know you're running late? But right now, there's something more important I need you to do than to get your kids to church on time.”
 
And so, I think at some point we have to decide, do we trust Him or don't we? And if we trust Him, we have to trust Him completely. And that means when we receive a prompting that we will act quickly because the Lord knows what we're doing.
 
And He knows that we don't have the best relationship with that person. Yet you're feeling like you should call. He already knows that.
 
And it doesn't mean that everything's always going to turn out the way we think it will. Sometimes I think the Lord just wants us to know ourselves that we'll do what He asked us to do, regardless of how it will turn out. And sometimes I feel like the Lord has told me to do something and I did it and it didn't go well.
 
And I'm like, “Lord, like, why? Why?” And I know all of us, you all sit there and go, wait, was that my thought or was it God's thought?
 
And you know what I have learned is that just stop worrying about it. Just act in faith. And the Lord always backs up His people.
 
The Lord doesn't, as you and I are praying and striving to understand the Lord's will. And let's say we get an idea and so we act on it because we feel like it was a prompting and then it does not go well. I believe the Lord loves so much that you were trying to listen and be obedient and the blessings will come.
 
Sometimes we just don't know the timing or how, but we've just got to trust.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:29 - 43:59) I love that. And we never know what's happening on the other side of our obedience. And I'll link back to Brittany Price Brooker's episode because she was one who had lost her husband and was crying out to the Lord.
 
I think she was bathing her young children, and they didn't have food in the house and maybe they were sick. And the only thing that sounded good to their child was apples, but it was late at night. She couldn't go get them herself.
 
And she was just praying like, “Lord, do You see me? Do You know my needs? I need You to meet my needs.”
 
And right then the doorbell rings and somebody showed up and she said, “The Lord told me to buy you these apples and bring them to you.” And I think that highlights something else. You articulated it well when you say whenever you get that thought in your head that you something that you don't want to do, it's likely 100% from God.
 
I would say a lot of times too, it's also awkward or inconvenient. We don't know why. And then I think back to the Bible, Abraham was put in a very awkward situation with his son and Noah, that was very awkward to be building the boat when there wasn't rain.
 
But look at the blessing that comes on the other side of obedience. So, appreciate those stories are really helpful.
 
By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes.
 
Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.
 
So, at that same conference, when I heard you speak, you shared something that really stuck with me. This one was about our daughters. So, I want to talk about daughters first and then we'll move to sons.
 
But you mentioned there was this one study where over 3,000 men were surveyed. And they were asked, what's the number one quality that you desire in your wife? Either current wife or someday in the future when you're married.
 
And do you remember the response? Yeah, it was kindness. Kindness.
 
That she is kind. And so, I wondered, was there another side for the boys then too? What do you think women would say for their future or their current spouse?
 
What attribute do you think they would identify?
 
Monica Irvine: (44:00 - 47:35) It didn't have that for the other side, but a word that we don't use as much anymore. And I try to use it a lot is, I think most women, even if it wouldn't come to their mind immediately, once they heard it, they'd be like, oh, wait, no, yeah, that. And that is honorable.
 
They would want their husbands to be honorable. And to be honorable means that we do honorable things. And honorable things always 100 percent of the time require some level of sacrifice.
 
That's what makes them honorable when we sacrifice and give up our time, ourself in order to better someone else to help our country, our family, others. And so, I think today what we all want is for our spouses, husbands and wives to be kind and to live honorable lives. Those lives, it doesn't mean a perfect life, but to be honorable means we strive to have integrity.
 
We strive to be godly. We strive to do what we say we're going to do. We strive to live up to our divine nature as God called mothers and fathers and husbands.
 
And so, I would think to me that is the most important, because if you live an honorable life, then you honor God. You honor your marriage covenant. You honor your children by treating them and speaking to them with honor.
 
You honor your job. You make sure that you have integrity at work and that you're dependable. And the same goes for us women.
 
You know, but I think I think we all struggle with selfishness. I mean, that is ultimately what we struggle with every day is what do I want? What do I need?
 
What's important to me versus trying to live a selfless life for our spouse, for our family? Anyway, it would be interesting to do that survey, but I think what's so kind of funny about the kindness is that whenever I read that survey results that I had read years ago, when I say that to a crowd of women. And men, but when I say that to the crowd, you can always see I just see this rippling of women making this kind of gesture.
 
Or because they know that they could be more kind, because usually we can be kind to everyone in the world. But in the walls of our home, we struggle more with just kindness.
 
Laura Dugger: (47:37 - 48:00) And so if we go further upstream than before we're married, if that's what God has for us, what are practical ways that we can teach and instill kindness in our children and honorable character? Or any other practical tips for conduct?
 
Monica Irvine: (48:00 - 53:03) Yeah, well, I love when I do a workshop at a convention on a family of service, because honestly, when we have our children in our home, it's practice ground. We have once again a few years to help them learn to love the Lord and to love others. You know, the two great commandments, love me and love others.
 
Well, to me, the best way to teach our children to love God and love others is to get our children out and serving others. Because, as you know, typically, like, for instance, when someone calls us and says, “Oh, hey, Monica, hey, would you mind, you know, the Smith family, they just had their new baby. Do you think you could cook dinner for them one night next week?”
 
If you're like me, I'm going to say yes. And then I'm going to hang up. And then I'm going to have that anxiety because already my week is so full and I was already stressed out about how I was going to get all the things done I needed to get done.
 
And now I've just added another thing. And I'm not saying there are not times that we don't need to say no, because we absolutely have to say no sometimes. But my point is, I cook the dinner and I go drop it off.
 
And as I'm pulling, as we are pulling away from that home, how do we feel? Do we feel better or do we feel worse? Do we feel happy or do we feel sad?
 
Honestly, almost 100 percent of the time, y'all, we're going to feel happier. We're going to feel grateful. We're going to be grateful that we had the opportunity to cook that dinner for that sweet family.
 
We're going to be reminded of how sweet the Lord is to give us opportunities to be His hands and His feet and His mouth here on the earth. And so, we want our children to learn to love. To love others, but it takes practice.
 
It's not until you serve again and again and again that you start to realize that the secret to being happy, the secret to having peace in your life and love abounding in your home is when we lose ourselves in the service of others. It's the secret to fixing siblings arguing with each other. It's the secret to helping husbands and wives draw closer together and have more love for one another.
 
It's the secret to less contention overall, to more peace, to more joy and happiness is to lose ourselves in the service of others. And so, to me, if you want to raise if we want to raise honorable, kind, generous, compassionate, empathetic human beings, they've got to lose themselves. To find themselves and define God.
 
And so, yeah, I think that's the secret. And of course, Jesus Christ tried to teach us that over and over and over again. He tried to teach His disciples over and over again that if you love me.
 
Then love my sheep, feed my sheep, teach my sheep. And what's interesting is that you all. The more we do that, the more we serve and love others.
 
Do you know what I believe? I believe it's kind of like the Grinch. Remember when the Grinch's heart grew?
 
That's real. That's really what happens. The God expands our ability to love others.
 
And in doing that, it actually expands our deep love of God. I think it's so fascinating that that's the fruit of service is a deeper and abiding love of Jesus Christ. It seems like it would be the opposite, right?
 
Well, I've got to love Jesus more in order to have a greater desire to serve. But it's the opposite. He wants you to go serve when you don't really feel like it.
 
And he wants you to go serve when it's not convenient. And your kids are crying and no one wants to go rake her yard. And then the fruit of acting in faith and trusting God is the love.
 
Laura Dugger: (53:05 - 53:34) That's what I would do. That's so good. Such a good medicine or anecdote to selfishness and issues we're having in the home with our children and for ourselves.
 
Well, Monica, you have shared so much goodness with us throughout this conversation. Can you explain how you can help partner with us as parents to help us teach our children etiquette at neutral times? Like you said, when their hearts are softer?
 
Monica Irvine: (53:35 - 56:52) Yes. Yeah. So, we've got some awesome resources, parents.
 
And number one is we do have a parenting course called Rise Up Parenting. And it's just this beautiful 52-week course that you get lifetime access to in case it takes you three years to get through your 52 weeks. But it is a course for mom and dad, or mom, or dad by themselves.
 
But it's just a beautiful way to help parents focus on one parenting skill a week. I've learned that when we have purposeful parenting, when we focus on one improvement at a time because we can get so overwhelmed, like we want we want to teach our kids to be selfless and that be ambitious and to serve and share. And I mean, it's just, it's endless.
 
But the Lord is a house of order. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a house of order. And so as long as we're going in the right direction, y'all, we are successful.
 
And so, this parenting course teaches a biblical principle and then a parenting principle that are related and allows you to just make little increment steps of improvement. Because when mom and dad improve, it blesses your children. So that's the first resource.
 
And then the other two most popular resources is we just have two programs. We have a program called FUNdamentals4Kids that targets children preschool through about third grade. And it's so fun.
 
It's just these wonderful, fun board games, flashcards, songs, stories, crafts, where we try to encourage you to twice a week set aside 15 minutes of your school day for an official manners activity and watch what happens. So, we've organized it for you. And for the little kids, we found out that if they can play with it, sing about it, make some food with it, that it helps them to go, “Mom, let's do a manners lesson.”
 
And then they don't even know that they're being taught these beautiful, wonderful skills. So that is so wonderful. And then for kids about fourth grade through 12th grade, we have a course called Life Skills for You.
 
And it's just so fun and it's so effective. Basically, it's 142 little three-minute lessons. We once again just try to get you to commit to twice a week sitting down with your family, watching a three-minute lesson where I'm teaching the etiquette skill.
 
Plus, we show teenagers doing the skill the wrong way and the right way. So, it's kind of funny, but it just creates some really great conversation with the family. And so those are our top three selling product lines.
 
And you can find all of that on our website, theetiquettefactory.com.
 
Laura Dugger: (56:53 - 57:15) Thank you for sharing. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And Monica, you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
 
And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? Yeah.
 
Oh, that's a hard one.
 
Monica Irvine: (57:15 - 59:06) I thought about this and I'm like, it's so hard. You all. Honestly, my savvy sauce is Jesus Christ.
 
It just is. I know sometimes we want the answer to be something else, but in all practical terms, it's Jesus. Meaning I start my morning out every day with Jesus.
 
I end every night with Jesus. I pray throughout the day and ask Him to help me make a decision. And I thank Him for all the beautiful things that happened to me throughout the day.
 
And I just He is this person, this real person that is at my side every day, all day, I hope. And that's how I do anything. That's why I am the mother that I am.
 
Not that I'm the best mother, but because of Him, I can mother and because of Him, I can be a good wife. And because of Him, I can be a good friend and I can minister to others through The Etiquette Factory. It's just it is Him.
 
And, you know, sometimes people will ask me, “Monica, I I want to have the knowledge you have or I want to be able to whatever parent the way it sounds like you parent.” And I'm like, you guys know, it's just it's called Jesus Christ. And Jesus will tell us all things that we should do.
 
And so my sauce is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It truly is well said.
 
Laura Dugger: (59:06 - 59:24) And, Monica, you are such a gifted communicator and your heart of compassion is evident in your outward behavior. It's been such a joy to get to spend an hour with you today. So, I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
 
Monica Irvine: (59:24 - 59:43) Oh, thank you, Laura. And it's been such a joy. You're so kind.
 
And I appreciate the beautiful ministry that you're doing here on The Savvy Sauce. What a blessing for families to be able to just hear these resources that you've created. So, thank you.
 
Laura Dugger: (59:44 - 1:03:26) Thank you for being a part of it.
 
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker (Episode 280)

280. Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker
 
Isaiah 61:1 AMP “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed and commissioned me
To bring good news to the humble and afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up [the wounds of] the brokenhearted,
To proclaim release [from confinement and condemnation] to the [physical and spiritual] captives
And freedom to prisoners,”
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 13 grandchildren. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.
 
Sue’s Instagram: @suebreadbeckers
Sue’s Website
Sue’s Podcast
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
You've supplied us with the knowledge, so now let's move on to the wisdom, which is learning how to apply what we now know. What equipment and grain do we need to get started so that this is possible to incorporate into our lifestyle?
Once we mill the grain, how long do we have to use it before it loses its nutritional benefits?
How long does it typically take to experience benefits from this lifestyle change and what health benefits can we expect to experience?
 
Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:
14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe
26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer
33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan
129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri
205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)
212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee
256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice
270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:45) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.
 
If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.
 
I'm thrilled to get to be back with Sue Becker as my guest today. Make sure you go back and listen to part one, which we recorded last week. She was incredible explaining the one nutritional difference that will change everything. And now today, we're going to learn all of the practicals of how to actually implement this into our lifestyle.
 
Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.
 
Sue Becker: (1:45 - 1:46) Thank you. It's so good to be with you again. I can't wait to share even more.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 1:52) Well, last time you shared just incredible testimonies of the powerful difference that one nutritional change can make. And you root everything even back in the Bible, and God has really led you on this journey. So biblical passages about bread or grain or wheat appear hundreds of times throughout the Bible. But do you have any specific ones that come to mind that God has highlighted in your own life?
 
Sue Becker: (1:53 - 11:48) Yes, for sure. Shortly after, you know, I think I mentioned there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death. And we don't necessarily relate that to bread, but it certainly does describe what happened, you know, when the steel rolling mills displaced the local miller.
 
And then one, another one is Proverbs 23, verses 1 through 3, I think somewhere thereabouts. You know, white bread has always been around. The wealthy, the royalty, they wanted fluffier bread and they found a way.
 
And they knew that they could make these sieves, if you would, out of reeds, and they would sift the bran and germ out to produce fluffier bread. But only the wealthy could afford that. Two reasons.
 
Only the wealthy could afford servants or slaves or bakers, you know, to bake their bread for them. That was the royalty. But then also the poor people, when they sift the bran and germ away, they lose about 25% of the flour.
 
So, for 100 bag of grain or, you know, 100 pounds of grain, you are going to end up with 75 pounds of flour, 25 pounds of bran and germ. They couldn't give that up. You know, they couldn't just throw away, discard that food source.
 
So, they ate what was called dirty bread or peasant bread or whatever that we now pay extra money to get back to. But, you know, when I started milling and I read Proverbs 23 in a different light, because what happened with the steel rolling mills, when the white flour came on the scene for the first time in the history of the world, which you won't read about this in a history book, white bread, white flour became food for rich and poor alike. And that's why we began to see sickness and disease.
 
The wealthy had it. And, you know, the royalty had it. But Proverbs 23 says, “Be careful when you sit down to the king's table. Do not crave his dainties and his delicacies.” And I always thought that might be things like, you know, squid or, you know, eyeballs or foods that caviar, you know, things that we couldn't afford. But dainties and delicacies to me now describes white flour, fluffy things, bread and pastries and cakes.
 
So, God says don't crave his dainties and delicacies. They are deceitful food. And it even says put a knife to your throat lest you be given the gluttony.
 
We talked last time about bread. People thinking, you know, gaining weight. Well, you know, the white flour dainties and delicacies.
 
Yes, they lead to gluttony. So that was one that really came to mind. And then, of course, Isaiah 55 verse two.
“Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread and your earnings for what does not satisfy?” And so, I always thought, oh, Lord, I didn't know it wasn't bread. You know, I didn't know that's what I was spending my money on.
 
But just a few weeks ago, I was thinking about that verse again in a little different light. Like He was saying, why are you spending your money for that which is not bread? We're spending all this money moving away from bread on food, the keto, the fat, the all these the meat.
 
You know, we're spending our money on all these things that aren't bread. They don't satisfy like bread does. So that was a little different light.
 
Yes, on the one hand, what I thought I was spending my money on. I didn't know it wasn't bread. But then now all these anti-bread, anti-grain diets.
 
Why are you God saying, why are you spending your money on all of that on and your earnings for what does not satisfy? So that was a little different light on that picture. And of course, then Haggai chapter one, verse five says, “You sow much, but you reap little you eat, but no one is full. You drink, but you never have enough. And he who earns wages, earns it to put it in a bag with holes in it.” And you may be going, how does that relate to bread?
 
We spend all this money on food, and I air quotes “food stuff” that is taking our health away, making us sick. To me, that's a bag with holes in it. Because then what do we spend the rest of our money on health care, medicine, whatever.
 
So those were some, some pretty profound scriptures that God showed me. And 1 Timothy 4:1-3. It says that the Holy Spirit declares that on the last day, some will turn away from the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits.
 
And listen to these doctrines of demons. This is the scripture saying this misled by the hypocrisy of liars who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared by those who believe and have a clear knowledge of the truth. That's pretty powerful.
 
That's pretty powerful because you can grill yourself a steak. You can eat an apple all by yourself. You can eat fruits and vegetables all by yourself.
 
You're not going to make one roll. You're not going to make one piece of bread. Bread was made to be shared.
And even the word companion means with bread. Did you ever think about that? So, um, that's, that's pretty powerful that in the end times and, you know, wherever you are with that, but we have to believe that there are teachings that are teaching us to for, you know, to not eat foods that God created to be shared and bread is at the top of that list.
 
So those are some powerful bread scriptures that that have just ministered to me. There's, there's just so many, you know, and Jesus John 6:35, I typically sign my book that way. Jesus says, “I am the real bread of life. And he who comes to me shall be satisfied” in Isaiah 61. That's a verse the Lord gave me so many years ago. And, you know, most people know it, the spirit of the Lord God is upon me because he's anointed me to preach the gospel, you know, and I'll never forget.
 
I had the great privilege of sharing the gospel one time, which is not something I normally do. And at a women's homeless shelter in Atlanta, and I saw in seven or eight people after I shared gave their life to the Lord. And I was like, oh, this is what I want to do.
 
I don't want to talk constipation and poop anymore. And surely it's not important. And I really got kind of down about it.
 
I was like, yes, I want to go share the gospel. This can't be important. And a couple of days later, after that wonderful, glorious experience, I mean, I literally wanted to go hand tracks out on the street corner.
 
I just wanted to be one of those people. And I was supposed to be going to speak at a women's Bible study, giving my what my children lovingly call mom's poop talk. And I got up and I was like; I didn't want to do it.
 
And I just cried out to the Lord. I was like, I don't want to talk poop anymore. There's so much more in me besides this.
 
And surely this can't be important. And again, cried out to the Lord. Again, just turned to my regular Bible reading.
 
And my verse of the day on my calendar was Isaiah 61, one through three or four, whatever it is. The spirit of the Lord God is upon you. He's anointed and qualified me to preach the gospel.
 
And I was like, yes. And it says to bind up and heal the broken heart. And I was like, yes, that was those ladies.
 
I know this is what you want me to do. And then it said, proclaim Liberty to the captives. And in my Amplified version in parentheses, it said spiritual and physical.
 
And what God spoke so to my heart, he goes, the message that I'm sending you to speak today is to set my people physical captives free. He said, my people aren't spiritually captive. Their physical captives held in captivity by every kind of sickness, disease, snotty nose, constipation, irritable bowel, diverticulitis, whatever.
 
Big ones and little ones, you know, health issues. And that I got up and I just renewed my passion. And I was like, okay, Lord, this is what you've called me to do.
 
So that was that was the real game changer. It kind of a game changer for me. I was beginning to see the unimportance of it.
 
And now, after all these years, I mean, when people hug you and with tears in their eyes, sorry, and tell you that you that you're teaching save their life. Now, I know what God was talking about. And I still love to share the gospel.
 
I still love to teach the word. And I know God's anointed me to do that as well. But this is definitely where God has called me.
 
And another time when I was out speaking, he shared and I was, you know, kind of questioning. And it says in Matthew, when the multitudes, when Jesus saw the multitudes coming to him to heal him, you know, to seek healing. It says he had compassion on them because they were harassed, distressed, bewildered and helpless and dejected like sheep without a shepherd.
 
And it said, and then he goes on to say, and he's telling his disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. And he spoke to me then and he said, the laborers are few. There's not many out there at that time.
 
There were not many people out there teaching what I teach, teaching other things, maybe, but not about the bread, real bread. So those have been some life-changing scriptures that have just given me a heart and a passion to keep going. And then, of course, it’s the bread stories that just come.
 
Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:19) So it's incredible. So profound. And I'm with you.
 
I love the Amplified version. Yes. You've supplied us with so much knowledge today and last week.
 
But now I'd love to move on to the wisdom portion, which is learning how to apply what we now know. So Sue, if we're just getting started, what equipment do we need? And then how is that going to be possible for us to incorporate it into our lives?
 
Sue Becker: (12:20 - 17:03) So like I said last time, I think we ended with keep it simple. Grain mill, top of the list. I once heard a lady.
 
She taught a little bit on milling, too. And she said, “I tell everybody you want to change the health of your family. Start with a grain mill.”
 
And like I say, over and over, I have never seen one dietary change make such profound and extensive, immediate, noticeable, across the board health benefits. So start with a grain mill and you don't have to have a barn. You don't have to have a live by a creek and a gristmill and all of that.
 
It will sit right on your counter. And still today, after 34 years of milling my own grain, my grain mill still has prime real estate on my counter. And it's the most valuable kitchen tool in my kitchen.
 
I love the Wonder Mill particularly. We do sell other mills. The NutriMill is a great mill as well.
 
I like the stainless steel milling heads because they're fast, they're very clean, and they just get the job done very quickly. Stone mills have gotten very trendy and popular. We sell those as well.
 
They're slower, might be better for a smaller family. They do, you know, have a broader spectrum of from pre-cracking, cracking the grain to very fine flour. And that's why some people are attracted to that.
 
But if I want cracked grain or coarse ground grain, I just use my blender, which I don't think too many people don't have a blender. You know, we all have blenders. So that's an easy fix for me.
 
And it's just, to me, the micronizing or the stainless steel milling head mills, the Wonder Mill, the NutriMill, they're just so easy to use. Put them together. I mean, they just snap together, turn it on, pour the grain in.
 
There's no calibrating, no, you know, adjusting the milling heads and everything. They're just easy, and they're fast, and they mill a lot of flour at once. So if you have a large family like mine, you know, I milled 12 cups of flour in less than a minute by the time I've got my other ingredients ready.
 
So that's top of your list. And then you're going to have to have some kind of grain. So, like I said, that was the next thing people go, where do I get grain?
 
And I'm like, well, I guess we need to sell grain, too. So we sell just about every kind of grain or bean here at Bread Beckers. We sell it in food-grade plastic buckets so that it is storable.
 
You want to keep your grain protected from moisture and bugs and, of course, rodents. So it's grown outside, so there could be bugs undetected in your grain that you might buy in a bag or something like that. But it's really important to protect your investment.
 
Hard wheat is going to be your grain for yeast bread. So we have hard red and hard white. We do sell also kamut and spelt.
 
Like my sourdough bread I've got working on right now is a combination of kamut and red wheat, which is one I really, really like. But those are more ancient grains. Those are in the bread-making category of wheat, so you could do that.
 
And then if you know you're going to make cakes and cookies and things like that, I highly recommend getting some soft wheat. Well, we get ours is grown in Montana, but they have to irrigate to make it soft wheat, so it is grown. We do have a soft red wheat that is grown here in Georgia that we sell and then a soft white wheat that we also sell.
 
And that's good for your cakes, cookies, brownies, biscuits, things like that. And then corn, mill your own corn. You've never tasted cornbread until you mill your own.
 
These are just easy quick bread recipes. You can find them all in my book, The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. So that's it.
 
And then, of course, basic list of getting started items. Beyond that, you might already have oil. We use extra virgin olive oil.
 
That's just my oil of choice. There's some other sunflower seed oil, grapeseed oil, avocado oil. Those are good oils.
 
I just don't need another oil. We import our olive oil from Greece, and it is truly extra virgin olive oil. Unfortunately, the olive oil industry is not very reputable, so you have to know what you're getting.
 
And we actually were able to visit the olive oil factory and I guess you call them orchards, the fields, two years ago. And that was really great. It's Creighton Mills.
 
It's a fifth-generation family-owned olive oil company and very, very reputable. And so we know that what we're getting is truly extra virgin. Yeah, you had a question?
 
Laura Dugger: (17:04 - 17:13) Yeah, just with that, because it is such a corrupt industry, can you elaborate a little bit more about what's special about that?
 
Sue Becker: (17:13 - 21:07) Yeah, so to be labeled or designated extra virgin olive oil, it has to have a percent acidity. And I do have a podcast on my Sue's Healthy Minutes, “The Fact About Fats”, and I explain what that means. It's not a pH, but it's a percent acidity of 0.8%. And that's a measurement of the, and I'll go into more detail in my podcast, but simply it's just a measurement of the amount of oxidation of those fatty acids that are found in the olives that has taken place. So, 0.8 means that it's a measurement of how much there. And so, it has to meet that requirement to be extra virgin olive oil. Anything less than that is just better and better, you know.
 
So, our olive oil, excuse me, from the Isle of Crete is where our olive oil comes from in Greece. The basic one we have, the Agrelia, they guarantee that it's 0.8 or less. Most of the time it's 0.5. Then we have one that's 0.2 and so on. And we do have a certified organic. The problem is, and I know not everybody's going to run out and get their olive oil from us, but here's what you want to look for. You want to look for an olive oil that is bottled in the country of origin.
 
Because the disreputable oil companies, when they bring the olive oil in in barrels and take it, it might be checked there at the dock or whatever. But then when they take it to their factory and bottle it, no one pays attention there. So, they are mixing it with other oils oftentimes.
 
We used to sell oil that was labeled extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. We had it tested and the results came back that it was less than 1% olive oil. So that tells you it's, you know, the oils you're buying on the shelf, chances are if they're bottled here in America.
 
Now that I know California makes some. There's actually an olive oil company in South Georgia around Vidalia. They've learned that olives will grow there very well.
 
And so there's some reputable companies in the United States. So, you know, you just need to know your company. But typically, if it comes from another country and bottled here, you might need to be cautious about that.
 
So, yeah. So that's what you need to look for. So, I love olive oil.
 
Contrary to what people try to say that they are selling other oils, olive oil has a perfectly fine smoke point. And you can fry in it. I stir fry in it.
 
I fry my doughnuts in it. You can take it up to 400 degrees without any issues at all. I do use coconut oil from time to time.
 
If I'm trying to make something non-dairy, you know, I'll use it in place of butter. But then I also use real butter. So those are my fats that I look for.
 
And like I said, there's, you know, grapeseed oil is fine. Avocado oil is fine. I think we do sell an avocado oil.
 
But I don't need a lot of other. Those three, olive oil, coconut oil, and butter are just fine. Yeah.
 
Okay. And then raw unpasteurized honey. I sweeten my bread with honey and bake with honey if honey will work.
 
And in most places it will. Where it gets a little tricky working with honey is cakes and cookies and brownies, things like that. I tell people things that have more sugar than flour, you might want to eat in moderation.
 
And that's where, you know, some alternatives, less refined sweeteners. And we use honey granules and sucanat products for brown sugar and white sugar. So those are just some simple things.
 
Laura Dugger: (21:08 - 24:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market. But Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell.
 
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Thanks for your sponsorship.
 
I'd love to go into a few of the other ingredients but first if we're even just thinking of the grain ideally we would get to come and visit you and get it from you. We've gone through all the steps.
 
But if we live elsewhere, two questions. How would we start a co-op so that we could have grain or how do we find out if one's already in our area? And then also are there any fear of glyphosate or any other issues with grain?
 
Sue Becker: (24:17 - 32:44) Oh wow, that's a loaded question. So, first of all, let's just say if you don't live close to us, we ship buckets of grain every day. UPS, we do.
 
But the shipping is quite expensive. UPS does not care about the cost of the product. They care about the weight.
 
And so, once we get it boxed up in the box that we have to ship it in, it's 49 pounds. So, it can cost anywhere from $25 to $30 just in shipping for that bucket of grain. Our grain prices are still very competitive, a lot less than a lot of people out there.
 
And we do carbon dioxide package our buckets of grain. So, we guarantee that they are bug free. You don't have to put your grain in the freezer.
 
You don't have to put diatomaceous earth or bay leaves. We've already done it. That's what the carbon dioxide gas has done.
 
And once it does its job, it's done its job. It doesn't matter now if you open the bucket and go in and out, in and out, in and out. But we realized back, I think I shared our Joseph vision of providing God's people with grain.
 
Way back, we started something called co-ops. As we traveled and spoke, people would ask that very question. Okay, great.
 
I'm buying the grain from you now, but what do I do when you leave? You know, I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I'm in Miami, Florida or Orlando, whatever.
 
So, we developed co-ops. And you can go on our website, breadbeckerscoop.com, and find co-ops in your area. And what that is, we have a coordinator, some person that kind of handles and facilitates the ordering.
 
If you join a co-op that's the closest to you, you'll get on, you know, there's no cost to join. And you're never obligated to order. If you don't need to order in that cycle, that's fine.
 
We deliver to each area four times a year. I'm sorry, three times a year, every four months. And so, you'll get an email saying your ordering window is this month.
 
So, you order, say, in August for a September delivery or June for a July delivery. And everybody's on a schedule. We have them grouped together.
 
And then you can order as much or as little as you want. And it greatly reduces the shipping cost per bucket. And you typically get a discount for ordering with the co-op as a group.
 
So that's a great advantage of a co-op. If you can't find one in your area, then email support@breadbeckers.com, and we'll send you the information of starting a co-op in your area. Pretty much all you have to do, because it's pretty streamlined, when people order they just go online, order, and pay us.
 
But then it's put together as your co-op. And you just have to facilitate the delivery and then making sure everybody knows to come get their product from you. But that's the way it works.
 
So that would be a great opportunity to get grain and whatever. And like I said, we ship anything on our website you can get through the co-op, most everything, really, really saves on shipping. And then we have certified organic grain here.
 
And, of course, it can have no chemical, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers used at all. Contrary to what you may read and hear and see on the internet, wheat is not genetically modified, not at all. Now it was approved for testing and trials last year in August, but up until that point none at all was here in the United States.
 
And it's still in the trial and testing. I'm praying that it never comes out on the commercial market. But right now, there is no genetically modified wheat, especially that we offer or that's offered out there commercially.
 
That being said, that means wheat is not roundup ready. If it was sprayed with glyphosate, it would kill the plant. Now, non-organic farmers can use it on their soil to kill, you know, whatever's been growing.
 
So pre-planting, then once they harvest it, they can use it after harvest. So, there is an issue with, you know, using glyphosates in our non-organic farming techniques. It is very uncommon, contrary to what you hear people say, for a wheat farmer to use roundup or glyphosate as a desiccant to harvest their grain.
 
It's very, very uncommon in the United States. Colder climates where there's a chance they might lose it to bad weather or whatever, they may. But even still there's other things they prefer to do instead of that because that's expensive.
 
It's not cheap. You know, you're talking 30,000-acre farms, these, you know, big wheat farmers. So, it's very, very uncommon.
 
And you can even find that information on the USDA website, that it's less than 3% ever use it like that. Now, like I said, there are other crops and farmers that use it pre and post harvest, but we're very comfortable with our grain suppliers. Most of our wheat comes from Montana.
 
It's cold. And they still practice pretty traditional farming methods, tilling things under and planting cover crops and things like that. But if you're really, really concerned, then buy certified organic.
 
I mean, you know, for the price difference, yes, I think it's like $12, but that's for 42 pounds of grain. So, you know, but like I said, we are very comfortable with our farmers, with our suppliers. Our oat supplier says that they spot check and make sure that, you know, no glyphosate is used even on their non-organics.
 
I think the problem with there, and people are going to say, oh, yeah, but they tested all these cereals and these oat products and found that they all had residual glyphosate. You've got to remember; those are your big food companies. Those are your big pharma, your big, the other pharma, F-A-R-M-E, you know, M-A.
 
There's no telling, you know, what they do. But, you know, glyphosate use is a significant issue. I want people to understand that.
 
But it's more in the farming techniques of desiccating after harvest, instead of used to farmers after harvest, the stubbles all there and corn stalks are all there. They would till it all under and then that would decay and, you know, help nourish the soil. Now they're going in, and this is non-organic farming, they're going in and spraying the fields and then just using seed drills.
 
Not as prevalent, I don't believe, with wheat, but it is used a lot with soybeans, corn, what else, cotton. Cotton is really bad. And there's not a lot you can do.
 
I mean, we just have to stay informed. But I hate it when I see people passing on misinformation about making it sound like it's just a blanket procedure that's done of desiccating these massive wheat fields, you know. And I've seen pictures; people will show them dead in the field.
 
Well, the wheat turns very golden and dries out, you know, before harvest. And then once they harvest it, it dies right there in the field. So, it's just kind of a misnomer.
 
But when in doubt, buy organic. So there. But, you know, I tell people if you're going to avoid toxins and glyphosate the way it's being used in our country today, you would basically have to never leave your house, go naked and probably never eat any food at all, you know.
 
And think about like lawns and golf courses and things like that. If you live around that, you're being exposed a good bit. So, wheat is actually detoxifying.
 
So, it passes through the body absorbing toxins. So, I think you're safe with wheat and, you know. But again, buy organic if you're concerned.
 
Laura Dugger: (32:45 - 32:57) Love that explanation. And then because I think of the other ingredients and bread and even the offerings that you have, what should we be aware of when it comes to salt and emulsifiers?
 
Sue Becker: (32:58 - 36:23) Yeah. So salt is something I studied later, you know, after I, you know, I, it made sense why they started, you know, separating the bran and germ from the flour too. So, the flour wouldn't spoil, but I'm like, salt doesn't spoil.
 
Why would they refine salt and do some digging and do some research and you find that natural mined mineral salt has trace minerals that we need, but it's the sodium chloride that makes the salty flavor. So, they, they have learned that they can extract those trace minerals out of the mind mineral salt and sell that to other industries for minerals and leave us with the sodium chloride and it's perfectly salty. So why not do that?
 
And then so that it will rain, well, it will, you know, “when it rains, it pours” the, you, you're probably too young to know that slogan, but that was a big one when I was growing up. They heat treat the salt so that it does not readily absorb moisture. So the crystals are harder so that when it rains or it's humid, it will pour unlike your unrefined salt that will tend to clump up if it's humid.
 
So that's what started happening to our salt. And I didn't believe this, but I did just a few weeks ago, go to the store because I haven't bought salt in years. Cause I get it.
 
We sell Redmond's natural mined mineral salt that comes from Utah, but I went to the store and sure enough, they put anti-caking agents sometimes in some of the brands of salt, dextrose, which is a sugar. Who would have thought that? And just know that you know, the heat treatment is makes it where it doesn't readily absorb moisture.
 
So that's why you tend to hold fluids when you eat a lot of salty foods. So, it's trying to help your body be able to utilize it. And while we're on salt, I hear a lot of people, they'll ask me, can I make the bread without salt?
 
My doctors put me on a low salt diet. First of all, that's concerning, but I want to say to you, just getting rid of processed foods, it will greatly diminish your sodium intake from bread to they have, you know, when things are so denatured that they, you know, they smash it, they cook it, they boil it, they take all this out and that out. Well, then it's flavorless.
 
So, they have to sweeten it and salt it to make you want to even buy it again. So, if you look at ingredient or not ingredient labels, but nutrition labels on processed foods, and I'm talking canned fruits, vegetables, bread products, and all these things, you will see that the sodium levels are much higher than the potassium levels. Well, in nature, that is not the way it is in, in your fresh fruits and vegetables.
 
Your potassium level is typically twice your sodium level where, so read your labels on your food and you'll see that sodium is typically twice the potassium in processed foods. So that's what I encourage people. You know, you can make bread without salt.
 
You probably won't like it. It'll be kind of tasteless. If you need to read, if you feel more comfortable reducing the amount of salt, then do that.
 
But most importantly, quit eating processed foods. That's going to greatly reduce your salt intake and then use a natural mind mineral salt that your body can utilize. So that's salt.
 
What was the other thing?
 
Laura Dugger: (36:24 - 36:25) Emulsifier.
 
Sue Becker: (36:25 - 40:36) Raw unpasteurized honey is what I use. I recommend. And then the emulsifier.
 
I think you must be talking about lecithin. Lecithin is totally an optional ingredient. You can make great bread without lecithin, but I'm going to tell you, you can make really great bread by adding a little bit of lecithin to your bread dough.
 
It's a natural emulsifier. It is what's called a phospholipid. It has an acetylcholine that is what it's made of.
 
And it, it, what it does in your body, it breaks down fat and cholesterol into small enough particles that can get through your capillary wall and into your bloodstream and into your cells and your tissue. It is found in any type of unrefined food that has oil. So, your eggs, your milk, your oils, your unrefined keyword, unrefined oils, and guess where else?
 
Grains and beans. It's in the, the germ portion of your grains and beans. And that is the nutrient that even without adding it to your bread, it is there already.
 
And that's the nutrient that I discovered brought brings down cholesterol, blood level cholesterol, because, and somebody kind of argued when I said that one time and I'm like, no, no, no, no. I didn't say cholesterol was bad. Cholesterol is not a bad guy.
 
I like the way one biochemist puts it. She said, it's just the pig that got stuck in the barn door. It actually does.
 
It gets stuck in our blood vessels because its big fat molecules are typically big. We need that lecithin in unrefined foods that have oil grains being one of those. And one of the most nutrient dense ones is, is your grains and beans and sources of lecithin, so it breaks those down into small enough particles so that they can get out of our blood and into our tissues and our cells where it is so needed.
 
Cholesterol is a precursor of just about all your sex hormones, all your anti-inflammatory hormones that your body can make. If it has lecithin it helps vitamin D be converted. The sunshine be converted to vitamin D and our body and it makes; it's a part of the fat and protein layer of every cell in your body.
 
The cell membrane of every cell in your body. So, it's very, very important to get that cholesterol out of the blood into the cell. So that's lecithin okay.
 
That was a lot of information. What does it do to our bread? The very same thing it does in your body.
 
It breaks the oil down. You've all heard the saying oil and water don't mix. Well, it breaks the oil down so that it is small enough particles.
 
So, it will go mix into your dough a little better and it will make your dough very smooth, very silky. It will make your bread so very soft. And it's the same.
 
It's the reason they use it in the food industry. They put it in salad dressings so that oil and vinegar will, will mix and stay mixed a little bit better. They started using it in the margarine industry because they're mixing milk and, and milk fats and water.
 
So, they put the lecithin in there. Now I'm not saying don't eat margarine. That's not what I said.
 
They put it in Reese's peanut butter cups. That's what makes that chocolate so smooth and creamy. I'm not saying don't eat Reese's peanut butter cups to get your lecithin, but I'm just explaining that's what it does.
 
It's in your body and outside of your body and your food, and it will make your bread and rolls so soft. And we actually learned when we had a bakery years ago that it helps your bread retain moisture. It keeps it from drying out so quickly. But it's one of those things in Haiti and Tanzania, they don't make bread with lecithin that's an expense that we don't need. But if you want some really, really soft bread and really help my tortilla dough be really smooth and silky and make those tortillas just press out really well. So that's, that's why we use it there.
 
You can use an egg has lecithin as well. I use both an egg and lecithin, and I have really, really soft bread. So just depends on what you're going for.
 
I don't typically put it in my sourdough cause that's a different texture. And I don't typically put oil in my sourdough bread.
 
Laura Dugger: (40:36 - 41:26) So yeah, it just depends on what you're doing there. Okay. That's so good to know.
 
And with the fresh milled grain, I know that it loses nutritional value each day. And I think you've recommended don't let it go more than three days. You'll have to discard it if you don't use it in that time.
 
And it makes me just wonder, then I'm going to link to a previous episode that we did on preparing food for our family, because one of the practices I'm thinking of was whatever you're making, make double and freeze half. So, Sue, I'm curious then with the nutritional value, if the freshly milled grain that we use as the flour is used in our baked goods or our bread, but then we put it in the freezer to be consumed at a later time. Does that compromise any of the nutritional value?
 
Sue Becker: (41:27 - 45:57) Right? Not in, not that I have read and studied what we have to know that as soon as that grain is milled into flour, then now you've exposed the nutrients, the oil and all these to the air and oxidation begins to take place. You might not see it in flour, but you've all seen it in a banana or apple.
 
You cut it, it starts turning dark right away. So, there's a lot of discrepancy and different viewpoints out there on how long that flour until the flour spoils. Well, that would be kind of like that apple is not spoiled, but definitely oxidation has taken place.
 
So, years ago, I read some information that in the first day, you can lose as much as 45% by the third day, maybe as much as 90%. I don't, I don't have that information anymore. You know, I never thought I'd be speaking and teaching, so I don't quote it a lot, but I did contact a university, and they said most of the oxidation is going to take place in those first few days after milling.
 
So exact numbers they didn't give me. But now I will say this, I would never throw flour away. So, I'm not going to say it's bad for you.
 
And some people say six months to a year is the shelf life of that flour. You're not going to lose your protein. You're not going to lose your fiber.
 
It's still probably the most nutrient dense flour that you can use and buy. But I will say this, your best bet is once the bread is baked from everything I have studied, the nutritional loss is minimal. So, if you need to make bread ahead, have a baking day, then bake your bread, freeze your bread or whatever you need to do so that it, most of the time, my bread will last for five or six days.
 
Well, I say it won't mold in that time. Most of the time we eat it before then. So that would, that would be your best bet.
 
Also storing bread, you want to either freeze it or leave it at room temperature. You don't want to store bread at refrigeration in the refrigerator. It will dry it out and cause it to go stale.
 
Now, of course, if you have meat or something like that in there that needs to be refrigerated, of course, refrigerated muffins, little higher moisture. So, if you're not going to eat those in the, in a day or two or three, they, they might mold. So put them in the refrigerator.
 
I have learned a little trick with storing muffins, put a paper towel in the container, either the bag or the container that you're storing them in. It'll really keep them from turning gooey. And of course, always let your bread muffins, whatever completely cool before you package them.
 
But I never throw flour away. If typically, I travel with a grain mill or with bread, if I'm going on a short trip where I'm not taking my mill or whatever with me, then I'll, I'll take bread with me camping. Our family used to camp one.
 
Can't take my milk. We did more primitive camping, can't tent camping, can't take my mill with me. So, I would mill up a pail of flour to make pancakes and, and things, you know, while we were camping.
 
So, we would camp a week. I'm certainly not going to go home. I can't use this.
 
It's older than three days. So, it's not going to hurt you to go that long, but it's, it's the best is mill the flour, bake your bread, mill your flour when you're ready to do your baking and then freeze or store or whatever. But sometimes that's not always possible.
 
We went snow skiing a few years ago and we did take the bread machine. We went with my daughter and her family and we took, we opted to take the bread machine and we just milled flour and put it in a pail and we made bread every day. So, we couldn't take both.
 
So, we did it that way. So certainly there's, there's, there's options. So, yeah, but I never throw flour away.
 
And if I, if I happened to over mill and I have, you know, some charts that show you about how much grain to mill to get, how much flour. So, I rarely over mill, but sometimes you mill and go, Oh, I can't, you know, emergency have to leave. I would bag it, put it in the refrigerator and just try to use it, you know, as first before you use other things.
 
Or if I have a little bit leftover, I'll keep it in the refrigerator and use it to dust my countertop or whatever, when I'm rolling my bread or dump it in my, you know, with a big batch of bread I'm using and just not worry about it. But 90% of the bread, no more than that, probably 99% of the bread I eat. I mill the flour, make the bread or the muffins or the pancakes or whatever.
 
Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 47:00) So I'm so grateful for that clarification. I definitely have information. So that is awesome.
 
I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.
 
If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible, either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.
 
So, let's say we've gathered our ingredients. We've made our first recipe. How long does it typically take to experience the benefits from this lifestyle change?
 
And just to recap, what are some of the health benefits that you may experience?
 
Sue Becker: (47:01 - 58:28) Well, bowel issues are going to be corrected pretty quickly. For me, constipation was my issue. It was done first day, I ate bread.
 
Like I said, poop the next morning. A lot of people go, oh, constipation is not my problem. I'm going five times a day or 10 times a day.
 
So that's more irritable bowel, spastic colon or chronic diarrhea. That may take a week to 10 days to correct, but we've seen people very quickly correct those bowel issues. So, bowel issues are probably the number one, the fastest that you might see.
 
And I, I, you, I love this story that I tell on a lady, and I used to year. I've been telling it for about 20 years. And I used to call her an older lady, but I'm older than she is.
 
Then she was then when I called her an older lady. So, this very young lady, she was the mother of a customer of ours. And the customer was her and her husband were missionaries and they were here on furlough.
 
And she came into the store. Her mother lived in Boston, I believe. And she said, Sue, my mother's having a terrible time.
 
She it's been on steroids for 10 years for her bowel issues. That you should never do that. And she said, but every time they try to wean her off, she has horrible issues.
 
She now has bleeding bowels. She can't sleep through the night. She's getting up five times in the night to go to the bathroom.
 
She can't leave her house. and I hear this a lot. I've had a fella gave testimonies, construction worker.
 
He goes, “Do you know what? The number one thing I have to find out when I go to check on the job, I have to know where the port-a-john is. I, cause I have to go.”
 
So anyway, back to this story. They, you know, And she was going to go to the hospital. And that was right about the time.
 
The gluten-free stuff was coming out. And she said, so she's been told maybe you need to go gluten-free. And she came in and, As a missionary budget, limited budget.
 
And I said, “You know what? Our ministry will give your mother a grain mill.” She was going.
 
The daughter was going to spend two weeks with her. And she goes, I'll teach her how to make bread. She thought about it for a minute.
 
And she goes, I do not know how to make gluten-free bread. Just give me a bucket of red wheat. It can't hurt her.
 
She's already got bleeding bowels. and if it makes it worse, we'll just stop. She emailed me and said in five days of real bread, her mother was sleeping through the night, no longer having the bowel episodes.
 
In two weeks while they were there, everything had normalized and her mother had her life back. That's pretty amazing. So, you're gonna see bowel issues correct pretty, pretty quickly.
 
We've seen that so many times. And then for me, sinus congestion, when your bowels are moving. And we talked about toxins in your colon, sitting in your colon.
 
We talked about the cancer relationship. But another thing that a lot of people don't realize, what's dumped in your colon and your bowels to be eliminated every day is the stuff your body doesn't want. It's toxic waste, whatever.
 
And if it's not eliminated every day, it's gonna sit there and get absorbed into your body. And one of your body's reaction to toxins is to make mucus so you can blow it out your nose or cough it up. You know, think about it logically.
 
When we get sick with a cold or a flu, that organism has made a toxin that our body is trying to get rid of. So, we make all this mucus and that's why you get congestion and you sneeze and you're coughing, you know, so your body can get rid of it. Well, what I learned when I realized I was no longer congested, I started studying.
 
I was like, how is this happening? Well, that's what I learned, that now that my bowels were dumping and eliminating toxins out of my body every day, I was no longer getting that toxic response of the excess mucus. My body was doing what it needed.
 
I no longer needed the antihistamines and the decongestants. So that was a big one for me. Of course, the wart story is pretty amazing.
 
People laughed at me when I told that in the beginning. I knew that it was the bread, that one of my children's warts that he had had for three years went away in the first month. And I discovered that it was the vitamin E that protects every cell in our body and from lots of things, but from being compromised by oxidation.
 
And if your cell is compromised, it is more susceptible to viral invasion. Viruses are caused by warts. So now that our body, the richest food source of vitamin E is wheat, but it has to be freshly milled.
 
So now our body was now getting this abundant source of vitamin E, which by the way, we had our bread tested. And one slice provides 100% of your daily vitamin E need. Wow.
 
Now, I don't necessarily agree with the daily requirement, but still one slice, which no amount of vitamin E was ever put back in enriched bread. But anyway, so I knew that this was the vitamin E protecting the cells and making us less susceptible to viral invasion. And my son's warts went away that he had had for years and in just the first month.
 
So, we tell that, I would tell that story. And we have now hundreds of wart stories, hundreds of wart stories. The most profound one was lady heard me speak at a homeschool show.
 
I only have 45 minutes to speak at a homeschool show. And I'm like, woo, a lot of information in that. So, I talk really, really fast.
 
And sometimes I share this and sometimes I don't. I started to skip my wart story. The Lord, the Holy Spirit just had me stop, tell my wart story.
 
And I finished that day a little earlier than normal. I never finish early. And I just said, well, you know, does anybody have anything to share?
 
Two people shared their wart stories. Unbeknownst to me, mom was in my class, walking down the hall to go to another class because there's lots of workshops at these shows, you know. And the Lord told her to come in mine.
 
There, when I left the room, she was standing outside and told me that. She with tears in her eyes said that she had been praying that God would send her an answer that her daughter had over 500 warts on her. She had had them for, since she was 12 years old, she was now 17.
 
They had had them all burned off, which they didn't treat the virus. So, they all came back, of course. They had been on different medications.
 
She goes; they currently have her on ulcer medication saying that maybe it's caused by stress. Okay, so she follows me back to our table where we're making bread. She eats the bread.
 
She goes, it's delicious. She goes how much is a mill? I told her and she goes; I've paid more than that for one prescription drug that didn't work.
 
What have I got to lose? I like to cook. We have to eat.
 
We'll see. Two and a half weeks, two and a half weeks, every wart on that child's body was gone. She had her life back.
 
She was ashamed. She was embarrassed that she had these nasty patches of warts on her. She wouldn't wear shorts.
 
She wouldn't swim in public with her friends because she was embarrassed and ashamed. And so that's more than just a wart story. And I tell that the wart story because, I mean, like I said, we have hundreds.
 
One little girl prayed that God would take her wart away and they heard about the bread and it went away, you know? And because here's my thought. If this bread can improve your resistance to a virus that causes warts that you've had for five, some people 10 years, what other viruses will it protect you from?
 
That's important to know. And that's what I saw with our, we rarely had colds. We rarely caught flus, you know, from other people.
 
Not saying we never did, but when we did, we got well very quickly and typically, you know, faster than others. Skin issues. Had a mom in here the other day just say that her, she said, we call your bread, the miracle bread.
 
Her son had eczema all behind his ears and on his arms, all cleared up. I had another young man come from; he had heard me speak. His wife heard me speak at a conference in Missouri.
 
They were traveling through, they came to a class, and he came up and said, “Can I hug you?” And I was like, “Well, sure, yeah, go ahead.” And he said, “My wife heard you speak.”
 
And he said, “what you didn't know is I had this rash on my body and it was stinging. It was burning. Doctor after doctor, medication, steroids, nothing ever helped.”
 
And he said, “It feels, it felt like fire ants burning me. Had it for years and nothing worked.” His wife heard me speak.
 
I don't know if she thought, made the correlation with pellagra. I don't know. But anyway, she bought the mill, bought the mixer.
 
She didn't say anything to me. And he said, within a month, the rash was completely gone. But here's one thing he said.
 
He goes, “It was so painful. I had gotten to the point where I wanted to die.” That's pretty significant.
 
And talk, you know, and now within a month, what doctors couldn't fix, the bread did, the nutrients, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, whatever else was in that bread cured his skin issues. And we hear psoriasis, people with psoriasis, it completely goes away in a matter of a few months. Depression, anxiety.
 
One little girl struggled with depression, and they told her to go gluten-free and it got worse. She was so fearful. She couldn't even sleep in her bedroom.
 
She had to sleep on the floor in her parents' room. And the mom with tears in her eyes said, within, they decided to not go gluten-free and to try freshly milling. And the little girl is happy and excited and has her life back.
 
So, I could go on and on and on. And we, you know, just the health of children is powerful to me. And we've seen heart disease.
 
God says in Psalm 104 that he gave man bread to strengthen and nourish the heart. We've had people say, I mean, well, one lady in particular, this was years ago, I wish I had taken her name to follow up with her, but she said her husband in one month and all she changed was the bread, came off the heart transplant list. She said, the doctor says he's not out of the woods yet, but his heart muscle is functioning so well, can't justify being on the heart transplant list.
 
And, you know, I read the works of Dr. Wilfred Schutt, world renowned cardiologist. Do you know what he used to treat heart disease? Vitamin E.
 
And in his book that has nothing to do with milling your own grain and making your own bread, do you know what he attributes heart disease to? When the white flour came on the scene and they started taking the bran and germ out of our flour. He said, we lost the most potent antithrombin, blood thinning and vitamin E for the strength of the heart muscle.
 
So yeah, we've seen a lot in 35 years or 34 years. It's been amazing. And people write and say, “I know you must get tired of hearing this.”
I never get tired of hearing testimonies and stories. And I call them “it's the bread stories” because they tell me it's the bread that's all I've changed and this is what I've seen. And so, and it's, yeah, it's powerful.
 
Laura Dugger: (58:29 - 58:56) Well, I love because even before we recorded this conversation, we prayed that God would do more than we could ever ask or imagine. And I feel like that's what he has done with bread too. There's still so much more, but you're just to encapsulate a few things, the improved energy, the supported hormones, the ailments that are corrected, there's so much.
 
And if we want to get started, then can you remind us of your website and what our first step could be today?
 
Sue Becker: (58:56 - 1:00:59) Yeah, first step, buy a grain mill, buy some grain, start milling your bread. And if you're scared of yeast bread, then make muffins and make pancakes. Machines help, you might all have a mixer that you can go ahead and use to make your yeast breads, but muffins, pancakes, coffee cake, three of my basic ingredients, I mean, my recipes that I started with, that's a wire whisk in a bowl.
 
You don't need to knead; you don't need to worry about letting it rise. Buy the tools that help you make this a lifestyle. Bread machine, you might see the Zojirushi bread machine behind you, that, I mean, five minutes, mill the flour, five minutes, dump it in, all your ingredients, come back to a baked loaf of bread.
 
You know, push the start button, come back to a baked loaf of bread. Mixer, for my family, the mixer worked very well because I would mix up dough to make six to nine loaves of bread or six loaves of bread at a time. And I did that twice a week, interspersed with muffins, pancakes, and all of that.
 
So, keep it simple, get a grain mill, get some grain and get a recipe book that you enjoy and just dive in. You won't be sorry. Go to breadbeckers.com.
 
You can find a lot of information. Go to our YouTube channel, Bread Beckers YouTube channel. Lots of videos and how-tos and classes, our getting started classes on there.
 
There's a couple of videos, a basic list of getting started items where I explain to you the hard wheat, the soft wheat, the red wheat, the white wheat, and those things. And I highly recommend, it's a long video, it's three and a half hours long, but it's called Real Bread, the Staff of Life. You can watch it in segments.
 
Pause me if you need to come back later, but it's very profound information. It's 30 years of studying and research and gleaning the scriptures and science and textbooks. And then Instagram, follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
 
And then of course, Sue's Healthy Minutes podcast. You will be blessed by all the information there as well as the testimonies that are shared.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:01:00 - 1:01:19) Incredible. We'll add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. And Sue, as you remember last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.
 
And so, as my final question for you again today, what is your savvy sauce?
 
Sue Becker: (1:01:19 - 1:04:32) So what I want to encourage people today is seek the truth. Use your common sense that God has given you. I want to read a quote by a doctor that promotes healthy living, but I want you to listen to what he says.
 
Here's the quote. “Damage to the gastrointestinal tract from the overuse of antibiotics, anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil or Aleve, acid blocking drugs, we talked about that last time, like Prilosec or Nexium, combined with our low fiber, high sugar diet leads to the development of celiac disease and gluten intolerance or sensitivity and the resultant inflammation.” Did you hear that?
 
I absolutely agree with that. All those things cause damage to the gastrointestinal tract and lead to allergies and things like that. “This is why,” now there's where I want you to listen and use your common sense.
 
“This is why the elimination of gluten can be a powerful way to prevent and reverse this and many other chronic diseases.” Next sentence. “The biggest problem is wheat, the major source of gluten in our diet.”
 
Did you hear wheat or gluten listed in his causes? No, you did not. He is making an illogical conclusion to his own truth that he just presented.
 
Wheat didn't cause that. Wheat can actually cure that. And you asked me about a verse that has meant so much to me and powerful, profound verse in the scripture, Deuteronomy 24:6.
 
In that scripture, it's the law. Sometimes you get bogged down in Deuteronomy. I will never forget when I stumbled, didn't stumble, but I was reading this verse and what God showed me.
 
In that chapter or in that verse, God gave a law for what you could take as a pledge when someone borrowed something from you. In those days, if someone was gonna borrow something, they would leave you with something of value of theirs as a pledge. I'm gonna return what I borrowed from you or I'm gonna pay you back or whatever.
 
Listen to God's law. He says, “Do not take a man's upper millstone as a pledge for you would be taking his life.” That is pretty profound.
 
Someone in the early 1900s took our milling stones, took our mills out of our home and we've been losing our health and our life ever since. Wheat is not the biggest problem. Wheat is the answer.
 
Freshly milled, of course. So contrary to popular belief, everything you read on the internet is not true. So, dig into God's word, find the discrepancy from what you're hearing in the world and what God's word says and let his truth rule and reign in your life.
 
That would be my advice.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:04:33 - 1:05:03) That is so good again, Sue, and thank you for getting mills back in our home and thank you for being my returning energetic and intelligent and faithful guest. You're so humble in your approach and you're grounded and rooted in your faith in Jesus Christ. So, I pray that these conversations radically change and improve drastically all of our lives.
 
So, thank you, Sue, for being my returning guest.
 
Sue Becker: (1:05:04 - 1:05:06) You are so welcome and that is my prayer as well.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:05:07 – 1:08:51)  One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker (Episode 279)

279. What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker
 
Proverbs 14:12 NIV "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."
 
*Transcription Below*
 
Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 15 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild so far. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.
 
Sue’s Instagram: @suebreadbeckers
Sue’s Website
Sue’s Podcast
 
Questions and Topics We Cover:
Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery? 
In addition to helping us feel better, how can this swap also affect our weight?
We are told gluten is the enemy, but you teach how wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause. . . Will you elaborate why even people who are sensitive to gluten can still enjoy this bread and experience greater health benefits because of it?
 
Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:
14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe
26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer
33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan
129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri
205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)
212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee
256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice
270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe
275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson
 
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
 
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
 
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
 
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 
 
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 
 
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 
 
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 
 
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 
 
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
 
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
 
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
 
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
 
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
 
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
 
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
 
*Transcription*
 
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
 
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
 
Have you heard about this one-of-a-kind experience, the Radiant Faith and Wellness event?
 
It's going to take place January 30th and 31st at the Cannery in Eureka. I hope you learn more or purchase your tickets on this website or check them out on Instagram at @radiantwellnessevent and make sure you stay tuned to find out what the code is so that you can purchase your discounted tickets.
 
Happy New Year everyone! I am so excited to get to kick off the year with one of the best episodes I can ever remember.
 
You are in for a treat today with my guest Sue Becker. She is going to enlighten us to the one achievable, easy-to-implement nutritional change that could change everything. Here's our chat.
 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.
 
Sue Becker: (1:30 - 1:39) Thank you so much for having me. It is a real honor to be able to share my story, share my message with others that can listen and hear.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:56) Well, it may be one of the times I've most anticipated this conversation, but I'd love to just start by going back. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?
 
Sue Becker: (1:56 - 14:21) Yes, yes. Well, it's a little bit of a long story, but I'll keep it as brief as possible. So, I always say, many years ago, headed off to the University of Georgia as a pre-med student because I loved studying everything about the human body and I wanted to help people and save the world, you know, all the grandiose ideas.
 
But my big passion was physiology and biochemistry. I loved studying that. Got there and realized, you know, I don't really want to be in school that long and I don't want that type of career after I graduate.
 
I knew my ultimate goal was to be a stay-at-home mom and I was like, okay, so why am I pursuing this? But I loved the field of study. And so changed my major, got accepted into pharmacy school, spent a quarter there and went, this isn't really what I want to do either.
 
So then I was led by the Dean of Pharmacy School to the field of food science, which was an up-and-coming industry at the time. I focused my attention more on the microbiology aspect of it and after graduation, I worked for Kraft Foods for almost five years as a bacteriologist in the lab there. I met my husband at the University of Georgia, and we married, actually, our senior year.
 
And so then, like I said, after I graduated, I started working for Kraft until I had my first child. I did become a mom, for sure. I have nine children, seven biological, two we adopted later in life, ranging in ages now from 45.
 
My oldest daughter doesn't like me to tell that, but it's too bad. It's what it is. 45 to 29, I believe Olivia is.
 
Yes, 29. And then I have 19 grandchildren and my very first great grandchild was born just a few weeks ago. So that's been a real blessing and a treat.
 
But after graduation, because I loved studying, it's funny, I tell everybody I'm a much better student now than I ever was in college. It's funny how you love to study once you don't have to perform with tests and things. But I continued studying physiology, biochemistry, read the works of prominent biochemists of the day and kind of came at everything with believing that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.
 
Our bodies know what they need and if they're not getting something they need, then chances are we're going to see sickness or lack of health. So, I kind of came at everything from that standpoint. It might be a little simplistic, but I think it's a great starting place.
 
So, I focused on feeding my family healthy food, you know, supplementing when we needed to. I tell people I grew up Southern. I grew up in a family of cooks and not chefs, but we cooked.
 
We ate real meat, real vegetables. My husband and I loved to garden. We grew our own corn and peas and beans and tomatoes and all the things.
 
So, we were eating real food. But we weren't a sickly family for sure, not compared to what others were, but we still had our share, our fair share. And so, we clipped along like this and I, in 1991, because of my interest in physiology, biochemistry, I subscribed to a publication, a health journal.
 
And the first publication that came into my home was entitled, "How to Greatly Reduce the Risk of Common Diseases." In this journal, the history of white flour was presented. Now, this was very eye-opening information.
 
Maybe I need to back up a little bit. The food science is not a nutrition degree. It's not a home economic degree.
 
It's the study of food processing. Everything that has to be done to keep that food safely on the shelf. Something's great. Something's not so great. So, when I read this information, I was like, how did I miss what's done to our bread? Through my studies, I had always read that whole wheat flour was better, but I didn't understand why.
 
So, in this journal, the history of white flour was presented. All the processing that is done to make that flour sit on the shelf forever, never really. And this is, like I said, what opened my eyes.
 
I learned that whole grains, real whole grains are the most nutrient-dense food God has given us. But in that journal, I learned that only when they're freshly milled, do they retain all their vital nutrients. You know, like I said, I had read that whole wheat flour was better.
 
I was trying to buy the stuff in the store, but it was kind of gross, nasty, I say. Didn't make nice bread, certainly not fluffy muffins. So, kind of gave up on that, trying to make bread with the store-bought whole grain flour.
 
And so, we were just buying whole wheat flour from the store. But I learned in that journal, it's not really what you think it is. And I, so like I said, I also, as a food scientist, what was so enlightening to me, when I read that word enrichment on the bags of flour or the bread products in the store, I thought, wow, we're making this better than it would have been, had we not done this favor.
 
I soon learned in this journal that that was not a favor that food companies are doing for us. They replace in their enrichment, a mere fraction of the nutrients that are there. And of course, I learned that once the flour is milled, I learned, well, let me, grains are storable, left whole and intact.
 
They store fairly indefinitely. But once that flour is, once that grain is milled into flour, it begins to spoil. The nutrients begin to oxidize.
 
So this led to the invention of these huge steel rolling mills that would take out the very nutrient rich bran, the oil laden germ that was causing the spoilage of the flour and leaving only the endosperm part, which is the white flour, protein and starch. Wonderful discovery. This flour won't spoil.
 
It'll sit on the shelf forever. And like I said, it looked like a wonderful discovery. And this all happened in the late 1800s, early 1900s.
 
By about 1910, the steel rolling mills had completely replaced the local millers because prior to the 1900s, most of the bread consumed in this country was either milled at home or the flour was purchased from a local miller. The bread was made at home and it was consumed at home. But with this invention, steel rolling, the steel rolling mills displaced the local millers, white flour, white bread became food now for everyone, rich and poor alike.
 
And can you imagine every housewife going, yay, I don't have to mill my flour anymore. I'll never forget years ago, Brad's 93-year-old grandfather lived with us for a little while. And I was in the kitchen milling some corn for cornbread.
 
And he went like this from his chair. He went, "I milled a lot of corn in my day." So, you can imagine people were like, hallelujah, we don't have to mill our flour.
 
But what seemed like an amazing, convenient, life-saving discovery actually turned out to not be so great. Shortly thereafter, the steel rolling mills and white flour became food for everybody. Three diseases became epidemic.
 
Beriberi, which is a vitamin B1 deficiency, it results in nervous disorders. Pellagra is a vitamin B3 or niacin deficiency, results in GI issues, skin issues, dementia, mental insanity. And that one really interested me because I did some more research on that and actually found out that the first case of pellagra was diagnosed right here in Atlanta, Georgia, which I'm from that area, you know, this area where our store in Woodstock is 35 miles north.
 
That first year 30,000 cases were diagnosed. Then anemia was the third disease. This puzzled health officials all over the country. They're like, what in the world is going on?
 
Why are we seeing this outbreak of diseases? And at first they thought beriberi and pellagra were maybe some type of infectious disease. But eventually they traced it to the new white flour that was on the market and the missing B vitamins and iron minerals that were provided by the bran and the germ.
 
Because for all practical purposes, that's where your nutrients are. The endosperm, white flours, protein and starch, protein and starches that we need, but not without the fiber, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, the inositol, choline, the iron, the calcium, all those nutrients. And so, things kind of clipped along.
 
They went to the millers and said, you got to put the bran and germ back in because of all the sickness. But the millers were like yeah, no, that's not going to happen because they had found a very lucrative market for the byproducts, which is so often done now in the food industry. Byproducts of the milling process, the bran and germ were sold to the cattle feed industry, white flour to the people.
 
So they're like, yeah, we're not giving up that money-making market. So things progressed until 1948. And finally, health officials stepped in, the government stepped in and mandated, you've got to fix the flour, you've got to enrich it.
 
And that's where I discovered what a deceptive term that is for the 35 to 40, who knows really how many nutrients are lost when they take the bran and germ away. They only replaced it with four, three B vitamins and iron. And of course, B1, B2, B3 and iron.
 
Supposedly, this took care of the beriberi and pellagra. But I always have to stop here and say, how many nervous disorders do we have in our country today? How many, how much GI disturbances and bowel issues, digestive issues?
 
How about dementia, mental insanity? What about skin eruptions? I don't think it took care of it.
 
But anyway, they think it did. And then it would take 50 years, 1998, after watching the rising incidence of birth defects and understanding that it was the missing folate that is no longer in the flour, richest food source, or most common, most readily eaten food source of folate, bread. Who knew?
 
So, they mandated then that a fifth nutrient be added. And that was folic acid, which, let me stop there and say this, these are synthetically produced supplements, vitamins that are being added to your flour. And particularly the B vitamins, this can be very troublesome, because the B vitamins come as a family, they come as a group, they work together synergistically.
 
When you take one out of context from the other out of balance, it actually depletes you and causes you to have a greater need. We're seeing that now with folic acid and the development of MTHFR, the folate, you know, reductase gene mutation. So anyway, it's caused more problems than it's worth.
 
And I've always thought about the scripture Proverbs 14:12, I believe it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." And we can certainly see that. You know, and if that were not enough, now, we've, we've taken all this away, we produce this beautiful white flour, but the residual oils cause it some yellowing.
 
So can't have yellowing of that flour. So, they began to choose to bleach the flour and a product called nitrogen trichloride was used for more than 25 years to bleach the flour. It was finally taken off the market because they discovered that this nitrogen trichloride caused seizures in dogs.
 
Are you ready for this? Hyperactivity.
 
Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:22) Hmm.
 
Sue Becker: (14:22 - 29:18) When I read that information, it was in 1991. That was the beginning of the scourge of ADD and hyperactivity we're now seeing in our children today. And I couldn't help but wonder, you know, when I read that information, there was one little boy in my son's music class, you know, and, but now, wow, it's pretty prevalent.
 
So then another bleaching agent is benzoyl peroxide. It's known to destroy B vitamins and vitamin E. And let me just tell you this, grains are one of the, especially wheat is one of the most nutrient dense food groups. Like I said, but it's the, one of the richest food sources of vitamin E and no amount of vitamin E has ever been put back in our enriched right white flour.
 
So, we lost that source, but now we're using a bleaching agent that's going to destroy it and B vitamins. And then potassium bromate is often used as a dough conditioner. It helps strengthen that gluten structure to help get a better rise in the bread. It's known to cause liver issues and thyroid issues.
 
And this is what we were consuming. So, wow. Yeah.
 
Talk about my mind being blown, my eyes being open. And then the rest of the journal was a brief discussion of the common diseases that plague Americans and showed why it was directly related, how it was directly related to our consumption of the processed white flour, lacking the nutrients and the fiber diseases like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, diverticulitis, even varicose veins, skin issues, low energy. I mean, it just went on and on.
 
And from my, with my background, this made absolute sense. I knew it was scientifically sound, but it was also, it was a Christian publication. It was biblically sound.
 
And what changed my life here was like I said, always read whole wheat flour, better whole wheat flour, better, but I was buying the stuff in the store and even whole wheat bread in the store. Didn't really see a lot of difference in it. But this introduced me to the idea of an in-home grain mill, buying grain and milling my own flour.
 
That was life changing. I was like, this is amazing. I can do this.
 
Wanted a mill. My husband actually bought me a mill for my birthday in 1991. The mill came into our home.
 
I milled flour. I made bread. I ate bread.
 
It was delicious. It wasn't gritty. It wasn't heavy.
 
It wasn't dense. And I tell everyone I pooped the next morning and it was like, what just happened to me? So that was my life-changing experience.
 
First, first day, you know, my bowel issues were corrected. I had lifelong issues with constipation, struggled with it. Knew I didn't want to take chemical accidents.
 
So tried to do more alternative solutions, find those and they worked if I did them, but they were, I tell people they were outside of my, your realm of daily eating. You had to do something special. And honestly, sometimes I think we look at alternative methods, you know, supplementation or treatment for ailments that are afflicting us.
 
And we're not getting, still not getting to the root of the problem. My problem was I was not eating enough fiber. The white bread, the white flour was constipating me.
 
So this was the only change I made. I tell everyone I've not been constipated since 1991. I know you wanted to hear that, but, but then I had five young children by this time and I, I homeschool my children.
 
We were active in church and baseball and music lessons and all the things, you know, we were busy. I had nursing baby and, and I, but I'm telling you, when I started just adding this bread to our already real food, we were eating. I noticed significant energy.
 
Like I said, constipation gone right away. Then I begin to notice first week. It didn't take months.
 
I was like, wow, I have more energy. My frequent headaches went away. Also with my bowels moving, my chronic constipation went away.
 
I lived on antihistamines before bread since bread. That's another thing I can stand here and tell you. I've not had an antihistamine or a decongestant of any kind since 1991.
 
That's pretty amazing. I had frequent migraines, not had one since we started the bread. So those were, I've noticed my sugar cravings went away because now I was getting the real carbohydrates that my body needed and it's sustaining energy.
 
And then my children, I just noticed they were they were, they would eat and they were satisfied. They love the bread. They love the muffins.
 
They love the pancakes. It was healthy food. I didn't have to coerce them to eat.
 
No more snotty noses, no more ear infections for them. And that we just became a much healthier family. And they, my kids didn't necessarily catch every bug that came around.
 
And if one of them did get sick, didn't necessarily mean that all of us got sick, which a big family, that's, that's pretty significant, you know? And so it was just, and the bread was delicious. When I read that information about whole grains and, and, you know, how bad white flour was, I was, I was thinking that this freshly milled flour was going to be just like the store-bought whole wheat flour I was buying in the store.
 
And you can probably already tell I'm a very passionate person. So, I read this information. I'm like, we're never eating white bread again.
 
We're never, white flour's never coming into our house again. And if we have to choke this bread down, we're doing this, you know? Well, we did not have to choke it down at all.
 
The muffins, the bread, the pancakes, the brownies, cookies, everything I made was absolutely delicious. It was filling and it was satisfying. A lot of people would say, you must spend all your time in the kitchen when all my kids were home.
 
I'm going, actually, no, we eat breakfast and everybody's satisfied. Nobody snacks. And even my kids begin to notice how other kids snack all the time.
 
Not my kids, they would eat and they wouldn't eat till the next meal. And so, it was just very, very satisfying. So, I began to share my bread with everybody, bake bread for other people, take it here, take it there.
 
The next thing I know, so be warned, if you ever start milling and you make bread for somebody, they're going to ask you to make bread for them. So, I did start making bread for other people. And the next thing I know, they're coming to me and saying, my cholesterol dropped 85 points and all I changed was this bread.
 
You know, I feel better. I have more energy. And the lady with the cholesterol, she, I continued to make bread for her for a while.
 
And I always laugh. One of the favorite things she liked that I made for her was cinnamon rolls with cream cheese icing. And she said, I ate one after every meal and my cholesterol dropped 85 points in just one month.
 
And I always laugh. I'm like a statin drug with all kinds of side effects, cinnamon roll with cream cheese icing, you know, and she said, it was her testimony. She goes, "I knew it was the bread. I know it is the bread because three doctors, three different medications, three years, nothing has changed. And this is the only change I made."
 
So, I started hearing this. And of course, she told all her friends, the next thing you know, everybody's wanting me to make this cholesterol lowering bread for them, you know, and I'll never forget. By this point, I had had my sixth child, still homeschooling, still doing laundry, still baseball, church, all the things. And here I was making bread for my family and then making bread for all these people coming to my door.
 
And I was spending all day every day making bread and for others and myself. And I just got really tired, to be honest with you. And I was making this bread and a thought came to my mind.
 
And I just looking back now, I know God put those words in my heart and in my mind. That day, I had also had a few people ask me, would I teach them how to make bread? And where could they get a grain mill?
 
So the idea came to me, met my husband in the driveway. And I said, when he came home from work, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world. I think I'm supposed to teach the world to make bread for themselves.
 
And that was the beginning right there. We sat down on the porch swing and talked about what we would call it. And I said, I want to call it Bread Beckers.
 
That's, you know, our, it's funny, we didn't know that at the time. But Becker is a German name that means the baker. So, it is bread bakers.
 
And anyway, so and, and it's funny, because at that point in 1992, my world was four people, four people had asked me about where they could get a grain mill, and what I teach them to make bread. And today, we, well, we, started our business right then in our home, took a little while to, you know, get everything. And we outgrew our home by 1998, what my husband and I and my children could do.
 
I mean, it just grew from the testimonies of other people. I mean, just like that lady when and then you get hundreds of people sharing different stories and passing it on, people, people start noticing. So we incorporated with a longtime friend and partner in 1998, moved the business out of our home, we're currently in this lovely 10,000 square foot warehouse, we moved here in 1999.
 
We have a nice studio kitchen, this is where all my cooking classes take place that we can seat 100 people and regularly we fill up classes like that. We have a lot of online classes already for people to view on our YouTube channel. But and then a few years ago, it's back in 2009, we acquired another warehouse because we are passionate about providing God's people with grain.
 
That first week here, like I said, customer base of four. A week after starting our business, getting all the license and all that really hadn't started getting anything, God woke me up and said that he was raising up Bread Beckers to be like Joseph to supply his people with grain. And I wrote in my journal that morning that it would be a tremendous thing.
 
And it would take a few months, we invested in a lot of wheat, we took all of our savings, this was before we incorporated, it was just my husband and I and our family and bought some wheat, you know, and had spent all of our savings. Well, I got a little nervous. And I woke up that morning after unloading all this wheat and writing the checks and seeing the money go out of the savings account.
 
And I'm like, I don't think the electric company is going to take a bucket of wheat, you know, for payment. So this was my fear. And I felt like, you know, maybe I was being deceived, maybe we were being misled.
 
And I just cried out to the Lord that he would speak to me and confirm to me that this was what we were supposed to do. And this is how I do it. I just cry out to the Lord.
 
And then I just go on with my regular Bible reading, not looking for something I could have gone to the story of Joseph because he had already spoken that to me. But my verse for the day in one of my devotionals was Proverbs 11:26. And it says "Cursed is the man who holds back grain when the public needs it. But a blessing from God and man is upon the head of him who sells it."
 
My husband took that vision. I know you talk about, I was like, what? I could hardly wait for Brad to get up. My husband, Brad, you know, I had awakened early because I was stirring and all just anxious and fearful. And the enemy was just coming at me.
 
And when I shared that all with Brad that he was sleeping next to me, not knowing that I was in all this turmoil. And he just looked at me and he goes, "Sue, I can think of no other verse that God could have given you to answer and your question and to calm your fears." And so he took it to heart.
 
So, we now have a second warehouse. It's 13,000 square feet. We are probably one of the largest grain packaging facilities in the southeastern United States.
 
We have hundreds. I don't know how many we're growing everyday co-ops all over the United States. And we bring in two semi truckloads a week.
 
I mean, I'm sorry, a month, which is actually a little bit more than that. It's about 190,000 pounds of wheat. That's just wheat.
 
Package it down into these great food grade buckets, plastic buckets. And we package it with carbon dioxide gas. So it's perfectly storable.
 
We can guarantee that it's bug free. You know, the enemies of grain are moisture bugs and rodents. So that's why we really firmly believe in packaging it all in buckets.
 
And like I said, we have probably 180 co-ops now. I don't know. It's growing every day.
 
We ship wheat all over the country, grain and everything we sell. So it's been a real journey and just a real blessing. And then I started a ministry called Real Bread Outreach.
 
We clipped along locally, kind of providing grain and grain mills for those who truly can't afford it. But then in 2016, God called me to Haiti. I made 15 trips to Haiti.
 
We built a bakery there. We trained up another team at an orphanage and they were making bread every day. So right now, in Haiti, it's an intense situation, but the bakery is thriving, feeding about 1,200 school children a day.
 
And then the other, it's about 150 orphans. Then we went to Tanzania in 2021. We built a bakery there, started a feeding program.
 
We've helped start a bakery in Israel that is ministering to the Jewish people. We helped train a bakery in Uganda and we've sent mills to missionaries in Japan and the Philippines and Nigeria and Kenya, just all over. And I'll close this part with this.
 
A few years ago, a friend of mine just, she did, she remembered, she said, "Sue, do you remember when you said to Brad, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world, but teach the world to make bread for themselves." And I'm going to tear up a little bit looking back now, like I said, four people, that was my world. Today, it truly is the world.
 
And not just because of the internet, but because of where God has called us through our ministry. And it's a real blessing. So, my encouragement to everyone is do the small thing.
 
You never know where God's going to take you in years to come and how it's going to bless the world.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:19 - 29:21) So I think that was a lot.
 
Sue Becker: (29:21 - 29:22) I know.
 
Laura Dugger: (29:23 - 32:39) It was beautiful. And it makes me think of the verse, do not despise small beginnings for the Lord delights to see the work begin. I'm paraphrasing, but I love how much it has blessed the world.
 
And I remember the first time I heard you, I was trying to just picture what is a mill, but you literally just turn it on and you pour the grain in and it comes out as flour. It's so easy. And so we purchased our own.
 
After our conversation, I get to stick in our loaves in the oven. They're still rising right now. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
 
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Thanks for your sponsorship. So going back to these ailments, I'm going to reference two other things that you said. First, this may be a little unrelated, but even thinking of feeding people around the world or feeding our children, you mentioned, you know, a lot of times if your kids were picky eaters, you'd say, okay, ditch the bread and just eat the meat.
 
But because it's so nourishing and nutritious and that Jesus has given us this as a grace gift, this bread, you can ditch the meat and eat just the bread and get so much nutritional value.
 
Sue Becker: (32:40 - 37:32) Yes, that and that's funny that you bring that up because, you know, one of the things over the years of studying is of the 44 to 46 absolutely essential nutrients needed by your body for health and to promote life. There's only four slightly deficient or missing in wheat, vitamin A, vitamin C. So, God gave us another kind of food.
 
Remember in Genesis chapter 1:29, he says, “I've given you plants that bear fruit with the seed in them.” So that's our fruits and vegetables. That's where we get our vitamin A, vitamin C.
 
Then we get our vitamin D from the sunshine if we get out there and get some. And then B12, of course, is low or is not found in any plant product. That's I mean, plant food.
 
So, you have to get that from your meat, your red meats and things like that. But that's and so learning that you're absolutely right. When my kids were growing up and the bread was my little toddler, how she'd tell me she was hungry, she would say, “I want a roll with honey.”
 
That was what she wanted to eat. And I would take the meat off the sandwich. And before bread, it was eat the meat.
 
After bread, it was just eat the bread, you know, because I knew just from that. And I started thinking about when Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone.” He was quoting the Old Testament, but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, he was reiterating that you think you're living because you have bread and all the biblical, you know, so many of the biblical feasts, Passover and First Fruits, Pentecost, they're around the barley harvest and the wheat harvest.
 
Grain was a big part of their life and of their sacrifices and all that. And he was saying, you think you're living just because you have bread. But I'm telling you, there's a spiritual life that you have to feed as well.
 
So, yeah, that was a fun time seeing the change of my perspective of just eat the bread. And, you know, some days, you know, breakfast was typically a pretty big meal for us. Sometimes it would just be pancakes, but a lot of times it would be eggs and freshly ground grits and bread of some sort, muffins.
 
And then lunch might be muffins and a smoothie because we really weren't that hungry from the bread at breakfast and then dinner. We eat normal. People think we're weird eaters.
 
But, you know, like I said, I grew up Southern. So, we do country fried steak. We do pot roast.
 
We do chicken. We do brown rice, mashed potatoes, green beans. You know, we do it all.
 
And you mentioned something that was funny. When I first started, when I would take bread places, people go, “Oh, my gosh, this coffee cake is so delicious or this bread is so delicious. Can I get your recipe?”
 
And I'd go, “Well, yeah, you can have my recipe. But you've got to understand, I mill my own flour.” Two things they would always respond with.
 
And the first one they would go, “You do what?” And I would go, “I mill my own flour.” The second one absolutely intrigued me for years and years until I did a study on what grain mills, the local millers mills, you know, waterwheels and gristmills and ox treading out the grain.
 
But they would always say to me, “Where do you live?” And I think they thought I must have had a barn and an ox or I lived by a river to have the gristmill to power my mill. Now, you can see my little mill behind me.
 
It just sits on my counter. And you're right. Turn it on, pour it in, comes out flour in a matter of seconds.
 
And I tell people, it's really not any slower or more tedious than taking your flour canister out of your cabinet. And I realize we've deviated in this day and time from even using flour and baking things ourselves when we can go to the store and buy it already baked. But it'll change your life.
 
I have never seen one dietary change bring so many significant across the board, broad spectrum health benefits to myself, my family, and so many people now that share their testimonies with me. It's just been amazing, just absolutely amazing. And, you know, I always, my husband always likes for me to say, you know, in the 25 years of raising my children on this bread, we only had to take them to the doctor twice for an illness.
 
Twice. And twice on antibiotics. They needed it.
 
There's a time and place. Twice to the doctor for an illness. In 25 years, there are people and families that go to the doctor more than that in a week.
 
So, when people say I can't afford it or I don't have time, I'm like, wow, I can just tell you the life-saving and money-saving advantages are, it's hard to describe. So yeah.
 
Laura Dugger: (37:33 - 38:05) Yeah. And like you said, it's an enjoyable process. It is.
 
But also, okay, referencing one other thing, just thinking about these ailments. You had quoted, I believe a doctor just saying about constipation that is, and I don't want to botch it, so I'd love to know if you remember this, that most Americans is that three out of five suffer from constipation or even chronic constipation. And that, was it the number one cause of breast cancer and prostate cancer?
 
Sue Becker: (38:05 - 39:29) Oh, wow. Yes. I'd almost forgotten that.
 
Yes. I was listening to a CD that someone shared with me, and it was by an oncologist. And I still remember, I would listen to things as we began to travel and share and teach, and I would listen to teaching.
 
And so, I had this cassette, if you can remember those or even know what those are. And I remember where I was, I was on I-10 headed to Jacksonville to a homeschool show. And this oncologist at the very end of her message, she said, “Toxins are stored in your, let's see, let me see. So, she said toxins are stored in your fatty tissue. In a woman, it's your breast. It's, and in a man, it's his prostate.”
 
And she said, “When toxins are not carried out of their, your body daily through bowel elimination, then these toxins get absorbed into the body and stored in your fat tissue.” And she said, “So a direct correlation between cancer and constipation is there.” And, and I was just like, what did she just say?
 
And that blew me away. I mean, that was not me saying it, this was an oncologist. And she's saying one of the leading issues is constipation.
 
Wow. Yeah, I'd almost forgotten about that.
 
Laura Dugger: (39:30 - 39:44) Well, and such a simple swap and getting to still enjoy these foods. But in addition to being healthier and the health benefits and making us feel better, how does this also potentially affect our weight?
 
Sue Becker: (39:45 - 42:33) Well, that's a good question, because we're all told that bread is bad, that bread will make you fat. And I totally agree. The bread that's in the store is devoid of nutrients.
 
It's devoid of fiber that fills you up. It's devoid of nutrients that satisfy fiber that fills you up. And it's heavily sweetened, sugared, you know, most of the breads we're eating are not just flour, water, yeast, salt. They're usually loaded with other things.
 
So, they're not satisfying. The fiber in real bread fills you up. So, like I said, you're not going to overeat, you're going to eat and you're going to be satisfied.
 
You know, I always tell the story when, when we were eating just bread from the store, I had five children, I would make sandwiches, they would, you know, cut them in half, I would make five sandwiches, they would, or I'd make the whole loaf, actually, they would fight over the last one. After bread, real bread that fills you up, I would make five sandwiches, cut them in half, and sometimes they would eat them all. And sometimes they wouldn't.
 
It was because it was filling, and it was satisfying. And that's something people need to understand. Also, the nutritional deficiency in the foods that we're eating in the store, especially our bread, they're leaving us malnourished, really.
 
Dr. Denmark, one of the oldest, well, the oldest practicing pediatrician in the country, she lived right here in Georgia. And she said, “We're the most undernourished, overfed people in the world.” We eat a lot because we're never satisfied, because the foods we're eating does not supply our body with the nutrients that we need.
 
And so, we're constantly craving. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what cravings are. You're craving food because you're needing a nutrient, you know.
 
And so, we find that we can eat and eat and eat, and, or not we, but Americans can overeat, and they do overeat because they're never satisfied. And so, real bread fills you up, real bread satisfies, it takes those sugar cravings away, which, you know, a lot of high calorie foods, they're loaded with sugars, and that's what we're craving a lot of times. I read something, women tend to crave sweets and chocolate, and men tend to crave salty.
 
And, but both, if we're craving, you know, processed foods, you know, you can sit down and eat the whole bag of cookies, where you make cookies from freshly milled flour, one, maybe two, if you go three, you kind of go, I really didn't need that one, you know. So, it's just filling, it's satisfying. We have so many people, testimonies of people saying they've lost, one lady said she lost over a hundred pounds, that was over the course of a while, you know, of a year or so, but she did it right.
 
She just started eating real food that nourishes and satisfies.
 
Laura Dugger: (42:34 - 44:21) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates.
 
You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.
 
You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.
 
And throughout the years, you've seen these different trends from Atkins to Paleo, and now a lot of times we're told gluten is the enemy, but I love how you say that wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause.
 
So, can you elaborate on that, and even why some people with gluten sensitivities may still be able to consume bread that was made with freshly milled grain?
 
Sue Becker: (44:21 - 1:01:23) Right, so, yeah, I think what people need to understand is what gluten actually is. And gluten's not really even in grains, it's just an easy way to verbalize it, I guess. So, gluten is the stretchy substance that forms from two proteins that are found uniquely in the wheat family of grains.
 
So, when you mill wheat into flour, and you hydrate it, wet it, mix it, you know, make a dough out of it, those two proteins, gliadin and glutamine, they form this stretchy substance called gluten. Well, it's very important in bread making that you have these two proteins, because when you make a yeast leavened bread, whether it's sourdough or commercial yeast today, those organisms feed on the carbohydrates both in the wheat and in your dough, and they produce carbon dioxide gas. So, that gluten, those stretchy strands of protein, those two proteins, they trap that carbon dioxide gas, and that's what enables the bread to rise.
 
So, it's unique to the wheat family of grain. It has always been there. It's why wheat is the king of bread making and always has been.
 
Who put those two proteins in the wheat family of grains? God did. And just so you know, wheat is not genetically modified, and it has not been altered to produce wheat that has a higher gluten content.
 
What determines the protein content of grain more than anything, which, what did I say gluten is? It's formed from two proteins. What determines the protein content in grain more than anything is rainfall during the growing season.
 
So, that's why here in the southeastern United States, we can't make yeast bread making wheat. We can't grow it because we have too much rainfall and it's too warm. So, we grow what's called soft wheat or pastry flour.
 
That's why southerners eat biscuits, because that's the kind of bread that we can make with the wheat grown here. The colder, drier climates in the breadbasket states of the country, they grow the hard bread making wheat. Now herein lies the problem.
 
When those steel rolling mills came on the scene and began to take the bran and germ out, what did they leave us with? Protein and starch. Those gluten forming proteins and starch are in that endosperm.
 
God never intended us to eat that white flour, those protein and starches without the vitamins, the minerals, the enzymes, the vitamin E that the bran and germ provide. So, therein lies a lot of the problem and that's what causes so many digestive issues is that we aren't getting the nutrients and the fiber that will keep our bowels clean and our digestive system moving the way it is supposed to. Now herein lies a bigger problem is that in the food industry and the American people's craving for fluffier bread.
 
In the food industry, they thought, okay, we can give you fluffier bread. If we take the wheat and we wash it until only all that is left is those two proteins, those gluten forming proteins. They get this stretchy substance and then they dry it and powder it and they add even more pure gluten forming proteins to that white bread.
 
So, now we have an even bigger problem and then and even in that whole grain bread, people want fluffy bread. They don't want, you know, coarser whole grain bread. So, check your ingredients.
 
That 100% whole grain bread that you might be already buying, third or fourth ingredient gonna be vital wheat gluten or gluten flour, whatever they call it and that is greatly upsetting the fiber to flour ratio and causing digestive issues. And then, you know, just the heavily consumption of that bread and you know, the commercially processed bread is a real problem. So, now what we have is people, you know, Americans consuming this bread.
 
Now, they have every symptom of something called celiac disease. Celiac disease is real. It is genetic.
 
I am learning. I used to say it's not reversible, but I am learning something that you might have the genes for celiac disease, but they can be turned on or turned off. So, perhaps what is happening is you might have the gene, but now it's being turned on by eating and consuming this high gluten, if you will, bread out of context, not the way God made it.
 
But then also what is also happening is so now we have people that have all the symptoms. Well, let me back up and just explain what celiac disease, celiac disease, true genetic celiac disease. You are born with these genes, the inability to break down that and metabolize gliadin.
 
That's one of those gluten forming proteins, which the whole wheat family has that. So, if you can't break it down, it's going to cause digestive issues, abdominal cramping. It's going to eventually as those that protein gets dumped into your large intestine, your bowel, it's going to lay down the villi.
 
You're going to have leaky gut. You're going to have all these issues. That is true genetic celiac disease, but it affects less than 1% of Americans have those genes and have it turned on for true genetic celiac disease.
 
So, what is being diagnosed today? Well, everybody eating the commercially processed high gluten packed or you know bread, they're developing the same symptoms, digestive issues, abdominal cramping, laying down the villi. So, they're being diagnosed with celiac disease when it a lot of times is not true genetic celiac disease and I'm not professing to be a medical professional.
 
I'm not giving anybody medical advice, but here's the good news that I do want to say to you. Non-genetic celiac disease is totally reversible. And the good news is people are finding some that have been diagnosed with celiac going gluten-free been gluten-free for 20 years.
 
They're finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because it has the right ratio and the good fiber and the good nutrients to heal their gut, cleanse their gut, and get their bowels moving, cleans out. So, bring that villi back to life and they're thriving. They're not just tolerating the bread.
 
They're thriving and finding reversal of many, many, many health issues. And another big issue too is people don't understand that for the most part digestion begins in your mouth, carbohydrate digestion. You chew your food, your saliva mixes with your food and there's an enzyme carbohydrate digesting enzyme called amylase.
 
Once you swallow that down in your stomach, your stomach is where protein digestion takes place. It must have an acid environment for those protein digestive enzymes to work. God knew that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.
 
He created cells in our stomach to produce acid brings the pH. If y'all know what pH is down to one very, very acidic could eat a hole in your stomach. But he also created these cells that produce mucus that lines our stomach and protects it from that high acid.
 
So, that's where protein digestion needs to take place. Here's the problem. What is one of the most commonly prescribed drugs in America? Prilosec, Nexium.
 
These are antacids. They're prescribing it for something called acid reflux, which is only compounding the problem. So, these antacids are doing exactly what the name of them describes.
 
They're alkalizing your stomach acid. So, what's that going to do to protein digestion? It's going to compromise it.
 
Huh? So, yeah, and the real cause of acid reflux is not too much stomach acid. It is actually too low stomach acid.
 
Our body's not getting the nutrients that needs to produce that stomach acid. Now, it's acid enough that when it comes back up in our esophagus it burns, but there's a little flap that God created right there at our stomach and our esophagus called the epiglottis. Do you know what's and it's supposed to close so that when that stomachs churning and doing its digestion, it doesn't back that acid doesn't back up into your esophagus, but it closes.
 
It's stimulated to close by the high acid in your stomach. Do you see what's happening here? So, we're being prescribed an antacid which now we don't necessarily get the burn, but there's all kinds of side effects.
 
We've compromised protein digestion, which what did we say gluten is protein. Also, do you know the technical term for an allergy a food allergy not a sensitivity or an intolerance the technical term for a food allergy is an adverse reaction to a protein component of your food. I have never seen so many food allergies as we see today.
 
It's very interesting. Some people are diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity. Well, of course, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread and the store.
 
Some people can tolerate a little bit better than others, but I know when I occasionally, you know, we go out to a party or an event and we usually avoid bread, but sometimes it's on everything. You know, I know I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't feel good. I have a stomachache.
 
So, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread in the store, but we have now hundreds of testimonies of people who thought they had to be gluten-free or say I have, you know, I haven't eaten bread in 20 years because made me sick. It did this it did that and they are finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because even wheat because it's the right proportions all the nutrients, you know, one of the amino acids that's found abundantly and wheat is glutamine Google it and you'll see a lot of health professionals will actually give you glutamine supplements to heal your gut and it's and it's in the bread. So, then part of the other problem that I see then when people think they're gluten-sensitive or have to be gluten-free now mind you if you truly are genetic celiac, you probably will not be able to eat wheat and I'm saying probably now because I'm learning some things that we can turn those genes off.
 
I don't know but if you truly are genetic celiac, but that is going to be a diagnosis that probably came when you were young you were going to always have had symptoms of these if you are now 20 or 30 and all of a sudden having these issues and you've been eating wheat all your life chances are you're not true genetic celiac. So, that's something you need to look at but people are finding they can eat the flour. They can eat the wheat and part of a real concern of mine is when you go gluten-free if you don't really need to I've been doing some studying as a food microbiologist gut microbiome has been a big topic.
 
I've shared I've taught way before it was trendy on, you know probiotics and all of that and fermented foods. I've been teaching it since 1992 but what happens that they're finding on these gluten-free diets. It's actually diminishing your good gut microbiome and encouraging the growth of more pathogenic making you more susceptible to C. diff, E. coli and other sickness causing organisms.
 
Then you're going to have those organisms are critical for breaking down food that gets dumped into the large intestine and encouraging digestion and enzymes that they create and all kinds of B vitamins and I could go on and on so that is being compromised the next thing, you know, you have allergies to eggs allergies to milk these very restrictive diets change that gut microbiome and they are causing a lot of gut health issues and allergy issues. I've talked to two people in the last few months one lady told to go gluten-free been gluten-free for years. She with tears in her eyes couple of weeks ago came down from Ohio hugged me in was came to our store just wanted to come to our store.
 
I happen to be here that day. She hugged me tears in her eyes and said I was down to eight foods that I could eat another lady in one of my classes came up and said I was down to seven foods that I could eat, you know, so It puts you on a treadmill that I don't think you want to be on when you start very restrictive diets. It's and not just gluten-free, but even you know, the carnivore and the keto and the paleo the heavy meat diets you need whole grains to break the fats down and cholesterol that those foods are providing and I'm a meat eater.
 
I mean, that's fine, but to exclude the most nutrient-dense food group God has given us in my mind is very dangerous. Let's see if we can get healing and reverse that I have a podcast and I do it's the bread stories now and I one of my favorites and I recommend it more often than any other is episode 66 sit with Sarah Valentine if anybody that I hear of that say they have to be gluten-free or their celiac, I would say she fit the bill for what surely seemed like a true genetic celiac. She was diagnosed in I think she was around 15 or I don't remember her age.
 
She was in high school. I think but she had always had trouble even as a little one and she was diagnosed with celiac and she said at the end of the podcast, she goes either God supernatural healed me or it was a misdiagnosis, but she had been gluten-free for 15 years. I believe it was and she told me she said and I she had a dairy allergy.
 
She couldn't eat dairy and she said, you know dairy I cheated on a little bit because it would just cause me a little discomfort. She goes I never cheated on gluten. Well, her brother and her mother heard about me and they Sarah was off at college and they got a mill and started milling because her brother's children had some health issues.
 
I think they have warts and my work stories are great. But anyway, bought a mill. She came home from school and they said Sari.
 
We want you to try this. You nope. Nope.
 
Nope. I'm I can't finally they talked her into trying a little bit should she ate it no issues at all and she told me on that podcast. She said I pooped the best I've ever pooped.
 
I have pooped in a long time the next morning. I slept the best. I had no headaches had no adverse reaction and she's become if any anyone My poster child for you know, reversing what appears to be celiac disease and being able to thrive on real bread and freshly milled wheat with the right balance of those protein starches nutrients fiber enzymes vitamin E all the things that bring healing and improve digestion get the bowels cleaned out and the gut healed.
 
So, yeah, it's something that I think excites me the most and I call it food freedom because what I'm seeing is people are in bondage and you know, when you can't eat this and you can't eat that and I understand there's some I have a granddaughter that has a dairy a true dairy allergy and I get it and those are real and you don't want to you know diminish those but we are seeing so many people that the bread in the store totally disrupts their system and causes all kinds of issues were seeing them not only like I said tolerate bread made from freshly milled flour, but bring healing bring healing and I that is so much our Lord that God knows what he's doing in his intentional design. He is all about healing and freedom versus of setting the captives free.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:01:38 - 1:01:40) Oh gosh, that was a big one. Yeah.
 
Sue Becker: (1:01:40 - 1:02:10) Yeah, but it also just one real practical thing as we're talking about gluten and fermentation with sourdough. This is a two-parter because if you feed it with white flour or add that I'm assuming that diminishes effects and if you feed it with fresh milled flour and then add that to bake it in bread, is that like double the benefits because you've got the fermentation and the grain or how does that work?
 
Sue Becker: (1:02:10 - 1:07:07) You know, I can't find any real definitive information, but let's back up and let's talk about sourdough with white flour there for a while when we were still traveling back in the probably early 2000s a lot of teaching coming out going even celiacs can eat, you know sourdough bread and they were making it with white flour and all of this. Is it better than the stuff you're buying in the store? Maybe but white flour is white flour and it's still process is still been stripped of all the vitamins the minerals and the fiber.
 
So, in my viewpoint, it is no better for you. If you're making it's kind of a waste of time if you're making sourdough bread with white flour. Now, if you start milling your own flour and making your sourdough with that, that's a whole other realm.
 
And like I said, I've done lots of studies most what I find when I read is that when we went to commercial yeast, we gave up flavor. So, I get that and that the bread is kind of flavorless now. So, I get that a little bit but as Americans and especially children, we like our fluffy bread, don't we?
 
Yeah, so, kids, you know, don't fret if you're making bread with commercial yeast. That's the way I make most of my bread. But as a microbiologist and knowing that when those lactic acid organisms feed on sugars, they produce B vitamins.
 
That's like yogurt. Why yogurt has B vitamins and maybe your milk, you know, just uncultured milk doesn't. So, I know that that increases the availability of those nutrients.
 
So, I think there is definitely some nutritional advantages that you take it to a whole new level. But what I say that commercial yeasted bread is not healthy and you can't do that that you only need to be doing sourdough, you know, I learned to make sourdough from white flour when I was first married long before milling came into our family by the time I had my children I had vacated that and then when I started milling I used commercial yeast and have for most of my years and we saw tremendous health benefits. So, I don't diminish one over the other but I certainly recognize that yeah, you might have some better nutrient bioavailability. I don't buy into the that you have to do the long fermentations to prevent the anti-nutrients like phytic acid from keeping you from absorbing minerals because I've had mineral checks and we've seen people testify that they had to have blood transfusions regularly because they were anemic all their life.
 
They start milling making their bread with commercial yeast, you know, and they're no longer anemic and we've seen countless people that and the same with me. I'm never low in my minerals. So, I don't buy into that.
 
But I say, you know, hey if you feel like you can digest sourdough bread better than commercial yeast leavened bread. I'm not going to argue with you go for it do it. But I also don't want to put a heavy burden on especially young moms that are like it's going to take me three days to make bread, you know, or it's you know, no, it doesn't have to so that's kind of my stance on it.
 
Do what works for your family sourdough is a rhythm. So, you got to kind of get into it about the time I get into it. We take a trip.
 
I go speak somewhere. I'm gone for four days and I'm like, okay, where am I with this? So, you know, that's just kind of my viewpoint and what I want to encourage people do what works for you what you want what your family likes.
 
I love I've got sourdough bread rising right now. There's times when I just like I just want you know, that chewy that nice flavorful bread and then there's other times where I want a soft loaf of bread for a good Southern tomato sandwich or my kids like peanut butter sandwiches, you know, so do what works do for your family do what your family is going to eat and love and you know, my husband has a philosophy if it doesn't taste good. It's not good for you.
 
So, if your family, your children, especially don't like the texture and flavor of sourdough some people do but if especially if your kids are used to the bread from the store, that's going to be a hard transition for them. And if they're not going to eat it and balk at it, then it's not going to bring them the health benefits that you're trying to do for your family. So, make what's culturally, you know, if you're a Mediterranean make your pita bread, but make it out of freshly ground whole grain.
 
I make biscuits out of freshly ground whole grain. I make my cakes and pie dough because that's culturally what we eat a lot of so that that's kind of my take on that.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:07:08 - 1:07:25) So good, Sue, and next week, I'd love to get into more of the details of how we actually can implement this into our daily lives. But if everybody's so inspired they want to take their first step before we come back together next week, where can we go to get started?
 
Sue Becker: (1:07:25 - 1:09:02) So our website is breadbeckers.com. So, it's got a lot of information. You can order online.
 
Of course, we have a brick-and-mortar store here in Woodstock, Georgia. We'd love to have you come. A lot of people are coming driving in because they've heard me speak online and heard podcasts and they're coming it and they'll walk in and go, “Oh my goodness.”
 
So we're a full-fledged kitchen store. We sell other things besides grain mills. We sell mixers, bread machines, raw honey, grains.
 
And then of course, go to https://www.google.com/search?q=breadbeckersco-op.com find a co-op in your area. If you don't find one in your area reach out to support@breadbeckers.com and see about starting one. We can do it.
 
And then of course, we're on Facebook, Bread Beckers, and Instagram and then my podcast Sue's Healthy Minutes. You can listen to that on any podcast platform or on our website. So, yeah, and then of course valuable reference tools, my book The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book, and I've got over a hundred recipes, a lot of nutritional information because I told him I can't write a book on flour milling without telling people why.
 
So, lots of good information on different grains and how-tos, how to do quick breads and leaven breads. And a lot of people think bread is a loaf of bread. It can be a muffin, a pancake.
 
It can be a pot of oatmeal or cream of wheat or grits or whatever. And then of course our famous recipe collection. This was the recipes were the ones I developed in 1991.
 
So yeah, so those, that's where they can find me.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:09:03 - 1:09:42) Love it. Well, and that's where we found your location. It's close to where my husband's parents live.
 
And so, we loved coming to your store. We had to try to travel from Georgia back to Illinois. So, I'll try and find a picture of what our vehicle looked like hundreds of pounds of grain of that.
 
Let's see on social media this week. I'll be looking for that. But Sue, I do have one more question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.
 
And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
 
Sue Becker: (1:09:43 - 1:11:46) So my savvy sauce would be keep it simple. It's so easy to get overwhelmed when we're looking for answers, especially to help. So, there's so much information out there, especially in the realm of healthy eating.
 
But as a young mom, you know, I had five young children. Like I said, when I got started, I started with four basic recipes. I found a basic yeast bread recipe that would work for cinnamon rolls, donuts, hamburger buns, regular buns, you know, dinner rolls, sandwich bread, whatever.
 
I had a muffin recipe. I had a pancake recipe and I had a coffee cake recipe. Those three are quick breads.
 
Those you stir up and you bake right away. So, I have to, I just want to encourage people to keep it simple. I will never forget this young mom years ago when I used to speak at the homeschool conferences, this young mom raised her hand at the end of my talk and she goes, “I just feel so overwhelmed. I'm being told I have to mill my own flour and make sourdough bread and milk goats and have chickens. I've got a two-year-old and a three-year-old.” And first of all, I was like, go away. Don't even be homeschooling a two-year-old and three-year-old. Just live life.
 
But I just looked at her. I was like, no, just start with the bread. You know, Jesus compared Himself to bread and I studied the seven “I am’s” of Jesus. That's in the book of John.
 
I won't go through each one of them. But the very first He says, “I am the real bread of life. He who comes to me shall be satisfied.”
 
You want to change your fit, your spiritual health. You start with Jesus. Well, I take that analogy over to our physical health.
 
You want to start and improve your physical health, start with the real bread that He compared Himself to. Then your next thing, you know, you might have the energy to milk goats and have chickens and do the next thing. And I've just never seen one dietary change make such drastic noticeable difference in my health and the health of my family.
 
Just start there and keep it simple.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:11:47 - 1:12:09) Wow, Sue, you are truly just a gift and you're impacting families and generations around the world through this truth that really does set us free. So I'm incredibly grateful for you and I'm grateful for your passion and your energy and your generosity on this subject. So, thank you so much for being my guest today.
 
Sue Becker: (1:12:10 - 1:12:16) Thank you so much for having me. It is always a real honor to have an opportunity to share what God has shown me.
 
Laura Dugger: (1:12:17 - 1:15:31) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
 
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
 
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
 
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
 
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
 
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
 
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
 
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
 
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
 
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
 
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
 
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
 
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
 
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.